strong contacts with the u.s., build those contacts with the u.s. so that they can shore up protective measures for taiwan. but if you look at the polls in terms of what people are actually looking for in this election, there's all of the usual issues. there's housing affordability. there's wages. but they more than anything want the status quo. it's not that people favor independence or reunification. they want taiwan to stape the stay the same and the concern china will make moves to change that status quo. >> janis, thank you very much from taiwan. that does it for me today. reminder, i'm back here tomorrow night with special coverage days before the iowa caucus. steve kornacki also will be here with me. that is tomorrow at 9:00 p.m. eastern on msnbc. stay home. get some hot chocolate, watch some tv. it will be fun. "deadline: white house" starts right now.

. hey, everyone. it's 4:00 in washington, d.c. i'm in for nicolle wallace. a close eye on a volatile situation in the middle east u.s. forces across the region bracing for possible retaliation after airstrikes against iranian-backed houthi militants in yemen. on thursday streaking dozens of targets, more than 60. at 16 different locations across yemen according to the u.s. favors. houthis say at least five were killed in the strikes. the attacks are a response by the u.s. and its allies what has become a slow slimmering crisis and drawn the administration's attention in the last few months. after october 7th with the attacks in israel, ships have gone to the red sea sites of one of the most crucial shipping lanes in the world.

hijacking a ship operated by a japanese company. houthis say they're actions are in support of hamas and the ongoing conflict in gaza and say they'll continue their attacks until israel ends its campaign. moments ago president biden answering questions from reporters. take a listen. >> i've already sent a message. they know to do anything. >> and the houthis if the attacks don't stop in the strike zone. we will make sure we respond to houthis as they continue outrageous behavior along with our allies. >> fears rising since october 7th with the united states embroiled in a wider regional conflict with iran or proxies and allies scattered across the region. like the houthis. what national security council spokesperson john kirby had to say about that earlier today. >> not looking for conflict with iran and no reason to escalate beyond what happened over the last few days by the houthis. they're the ones escalating.

we're not looking for conflict with iran. that said we know iran supports the houthis, supply them with missiles and drones. same things using to attack shipping, and we have made it very clear. iran should stop that support. we have in the past are and will continue to hold iran accountable for the support they give of to houthis but to groups like hamas, hezbollah, militant groups in iraq and syria and do it in concert with allies and partners. >> we start there today with national security and pentagon security and ben rhodes and retired four-star general and msnbc military analyst barry mccaffrey.you. what is the state of play in the region now? >> some in the regiony colluding iran not surprisingly support and bang roll the houthi militia in yemen have condemned these strikes, but some like the ammy

they could escalate regional tensions. that being said, one of the major reasons the u.s. conducted these strikes when they did last night was because they were waiting until they could build more of a coalition. the u.s. did not want to go it alone on these strikes. so what we saw last night was the u.s. and the british militaries coming together to carry out what i have to say was a very lae-ale attack against houthi militants. talking nearly 30 different locations. more than 60 targets, and more than 150 precision-guided bombs and missiles launched at various houthi sites throughout the houthi-controlled part of yemen last night. a very large-scale attack here, but what the u.s. was trying to do for weeks, since they first started putting together potential targets for attack late in 2023 was to build more of a coalition here. it was the u.s. and british last night but also a number of other nations supported in a

non-operational role. weren't actually dropping bombs or flying planes but supportive of the strikes last night and we heard from president biden today asked if the u.s. would continue to target the houthis, if they are attacks continue. he said, yes. in conjunction with allies, the u.s. would continue going back and forth. of course, that's not what the u.s. wants. not a tit for tat but increasing pressure for the united states to respond to now more than two dozen attacks by houthi militants into the red sea. mainly one-way attack drones anti-ship cruise missiles and ballistic mills. missiles. majority knocked out of the sky by u.s. military. several had struck commercial ships. that's the real concern. it's starting to have impact on the global economy, with major companies re-routing their ships down around southern africa at an additional cost with additional time and the concern here is that it's going to

impact consumers. when some of these shipping companies start passing the additional cost on to the prices back here at home. but in addition to that, as these houthi attacks have become more and more aggressive, we saw on tuesday with more than 20 projectiles, u.s. officials are increasingly concerned that they could have an attack that is successful, if it were to hit something like a u.s. military ship. that would have the immediate impact of really drawing the u.s. more directly into the regional conflict there. >> courtney, any signs of retaliation from the houthis? >> so far there actually has been one a u.s. military official said they believe was retaliation for the strikes last night. firing off a ballistic missile into the red sea. again, a busy shipping area. no ships struck. not shot down. so far that's it. i have to say, i mentioned the massive number of strikes overnight. 150 different missiles and bombs. what we should really be watching for here is whether this really was able to degrade

the houthis' capabilities and whether we see them have to sort of re-assess their ability and maybe have to take a step back to sort of regroup before they might even have the ability to carry out more attacks in the immediatefuture. >> courtney, thank you so much. getting us started. general barry mccaffrey. go to you. help us understand why the administration would decide to launch airstrikes? >> such an economic cost, global shipping coming through the suez canal. at some point they had no option. we've seen a couple thousand ships now diverted around africa. it's 12% of all global shipping comes through the red sea, headed to europe on in other directions. i think the administration built a coalition, got a u.n. resolution of support, got active participation by 20-some-odd allies, and then conducted a moderate strike. it's very difficult to destroy

ground combat capabilities with air power, but it's more effective when you're going after radar, coastal sea-based drones, storage sites. i think they probably had an impact. i don't believe the houthis can possibly be deterred. what we can do is wind down their capabilities. to do that it may well require a couple of weeks of unrestrained air power strikes. >> ben, put this in a more global context and talk specifically about the houthis. in the "new york times." built tir ideology around opposition to isrl and the united states seeing thems as part of the iran yn-led "axis of resistance alongith hamas an and lebanon." drawing parallels with bombs pummeled in yemen and arms in israel and used in gaza. group of poorly organized rebels houthis bolstered their

arls analysts credit the expansion to support from the iran supplied militias across the middle east to expand its own influence. the u.s. dealing with houthis for years. walk us through that history, ben. >> well, the history is that the houthis have become even back in the obama years a stronger and stronger force holding more and more territory in yemen, even at times threatening the capital city of yemen. the saudis then launched a war into yemen towards end of the obama administration with backing of the united states t try to destroy the houthis. i think it's an important point to build on what general mccaffid i don't think you can do that. multiple years of wars in yemen create add humanitarian crisis n dislodge the uthis. if anything they seem to resilience can and capabilitie could be stronger. sohe are going to be there. they're notoing to be eds a fighting force, and it does ike ey're also not going to be deterred

because of ideology of resistance and having went through war i think they're willing to take a lot of risk and hits. so this really is mainly about maybe sending a message to iran and maybe degrading their capabilities. i think the other important thing here is, though, that retaliation might not just come from the houthis. we could see iranian-backed militias in iraq threaten u.s. forces or u.s. diplomatic personnel there. seen attacks in u.s. forces in ria. this already is a regional war. heart of it is in gaza but seen fighting and bombing and in lebanon, seen it in syria, seen it in iraq. now seeing itin yemen. goes to show so long at the war simmers in gaza you'll have fuses that could be lit in different parts of the middle east. the administration is trying to do two things and there is tension here. deter that escalation while at the same time too longs for doing so are escalatory in nature. that's a very precaious place

to be. >> general, talk about that tension. possibilities this administration could be preparing for? >> well, first of all i fully agree with ben's points. this is a strategic dilemma in the united states and the biden administration particularly secretary of state has been very creative trying to prevent either a horizontal escalation to new places of conflict, like the houthis, or vertical where we finally would get hezbollah entering the fray with 100,000 fighters. we don't want to see it, a regional disaster. the u.s. does have substantial military power in the region, and at the end of the day, this is being orchestrated by iran. that's who's, more than 130 attacks on u.s. military forces in both iraq and syria. now the houthis, iran's the just seized an oil tanker out in the persian gulf. they allegedly just attacked a

vessel carrying chemicals out in the indian ocean. so they're steadily moving the bar here. at some point we're going to have to threaten military action privately against the iranians. no one wants to see that, to include the iranians. they have a lot to lose if this thing escalates to include strikes against them. by either israel or the united states. >> and when you talk about these core tensions, can you pull back the curtain for us, ben, and give us sense to the best of your ability of conversations likely happening within administration given there is a persistent and understandable fear getting drawn into yet another another conflict? >> i think probably have been meetings at the cabinet level with the president of the united states over the course of last several weeks. weighing, what can we do diplomatically and tony blinken has been in the region probably passing messages to iran to

houthis, to hezbollah through various parties, through amanis, through the turks trying to send a message, look, we don't want escalation. keep in mind this began october 7th with what hamas launched. the challenge here i think for the administration is, look, hamas is, it's an arsonist organization. they would welcome chaos across the region. they want to draw this into a regional war. and so the u.s. is fighting this tension. again, between, can we try to put these fires out diplomatically? can we try to see the war in gaza move into a more targeted or maybe a sustainable cease-fire so as to reduce tensions? so long as that war's ongoing, how do we protect core interests safety of our personnel in the region under attack and things like global shipping without getting into that regional war? again, to just illustrate the trade-off again, it's a huge threat to the global economy to have these ships diverted.

a bigger threat to the global economy if there's a regional war in the middle east that fully draws in iran. so they're trying to kind of navigate this precarious moment until diplomacy, i think, can succeed in lowering the temperature. until diplomacy can do that or the war binds down in gaza we'll just be living in this place of heightened tension and heightened risk of escalation. >> general, when you talk about bolsters houthis arsenal including crews and ballistic missiles, long-range drones, what's the significance of that arsenal being expanded? >> iranians, of course, houthis are know shia organization. right back into the classic suni, shia struggle throughout the middle east. one of the challenges is, many of these missiles that are being fired are one-way iranian designed and manufactured drones. they cost 20,000 bucks. the u.s. navy and the brits also have extremely sophisticated air

defense capabilities. as well as carrier battle group "eisenhower" fa-18s air-to-air capability shooting them down but an expensive one-sided, lopsided tactical exchange. we're capable of keeping this up. but it's a passive defense. so, again, i think you know, the touch point is going to be iran. at some point they have to be persuaded they've hit the red line, we're about to go escalate and attack them. we don't want to do that. it would be a disaster for the region. would have tremendous economic consequences. so that's what the biden administration is trying to navigate so far and bog extremely well at it, my view. >> general barry mccaffrey, ben rhodes, as always thank you both. when we come back we'll turn to donald trump's long-shot bid to claim immunity over criminal

charges. a shifting causing huge headaches for his lawyers. plus, turn back to faulty county georgia. a big hears in the election racketeering case against the ex-president and 14 remaining co-defendants. the case back in focus just as trump and allies push new attacks on d.a. fani willis. all those stories and more when "deadline: white house" continues after this. after thi ...there are places you'd like to be. like here. and here. not so much here. farxiga reduces the risk of kidney failure which can lead to dialysis. ♪far-xi-ga♪ farxiga can cause serious side effects, including ketoacidosis that may be fatal, dehydration, urinary tract or genital yeast infections, and low blood sugar. a rare, life-threatening bacterial infection in the skin of the perineum

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get over here kids. ask your provider for cologuard. time for today's lesson. wow. -whoa. what are those? these are humans. they rely on something called the internet to survive. huh, powers out. [ gasp ] are they gonna to die? worse, they are gonna get bored. [ gasp ] wait look! they figured out a way to keep the internet on. yeah! -nature finds a way. [ grunt ] stay connected when the power goes out, with storm ready wifi from xfinity. and see migration in theaters now. so it's decided, we'll park even deeper into parking spaces

so people think they're open. surprise. [ laughs ] [ horn honks, muffled talking ] -can't hear you, jerry. -sorry. uh, yeah, can we get a system where when someone's bike is in the shop, then we could borrow someone else's? -no! -no! or you can get a quote with america's number-one motorcycle insurer and maybe save some money while you're at it. all in favor of that. [ horn honking ] there's a lot of buttons and knobs in here. of course i was entitled as president of the united states and commander-in-chief to immunity. i'm entitled to immunity. every president has immunity

especially one that did the job i did. i did a great job, and i wasn't working for myself. i was working for the country. i wasn't campaigning, the election was long over. i wasn't campaigning. i was looking for a voter fraud. something that i have to do under my mandate. i have to look for voter fraud. >> did you catch it? subtle. barely half a sentence but a supremely important point, nonetheless. now at the very heart of donald trump's presidential immunity appeal. a decision we could get conceivably at any time. that was the disgraced ex-president in a message posted to social media this week declaring in no uncertain terms when he pressured mike pence along with a number of state officials to overturn the results of the 2020 election, "the ele was long over in fact, political identified six separate occasionsus in the past two weeks where trump that very claim. the implication being he was

acting in his capacity at president. the mission to identify non-existent voter fraud. so immunity ought to protect him. right? but -- there is just one problem for trump. making the case the 2020 election was long over by that point has made it more difficult by the fact he himself wrote in november of that year 2020 is a long way from over. the idea he wasn't acting in his personal capacity at a candidate for re-election made more difficult by a brief to the supreme court in which corner john eastman wrote, seeks to intervene in his personal capacity as a candidate for re-election. a whiplash change, politico contradiction could cause headaches for trump and his current lawyers as they now press appellate courts to accept an aggreimmunity theory. somehow accounts as a political

attack though they were nakedly political. and joining us, tim, before we get into the merits of trump's new argument. explain why the distinction matters. acting as president, versus acting as a candidate? >> right. really matters. the supreme court ultimately are in the d.c. circuit and potentially the supreme court has to evaluate whether or not the president during the acts that are alleged as criminal in the special counsel's case were conducted pursuant to his responsibility as president. an argument if they were part of his official duties he has immunity. that is unsettled, even but the acts done at pursuant to the president of the united states or as a special counsel done in his capacity as a candidate, a private citizen, outside of the zone of his responsibilities as president. so it's understandable that now

he wants to say, aww, the election was long over. this was done in my capacity as president. the problem is that's just 180 degrees different than what he himself repeatedly said on, before, on -- and then the day after january 6th. i am reminded when i read that of the outtakes from his january 7th speech that the select committee obtained before the archives. they show literally president trump at the time a, president trump, when he got to the draft statement of the election is over, he said says, i don't want to say the election is over and changes the wording to commit to a transfer's power but doesn't say the election is over. so it just is not persuasive to suddenly in a court filing or in a truth social post say the election was long over when in realtime he was saying exactly the opposite and acting just the opposite, encouraging people to march on the capitol to disrupt

the joint session. i don't think it's going to matter. i think it will hurt his cred canability affect the immunity case and hurt his cred canability in front of a judge and jury when this case is tried. >> tim, you heard him say in the one clip i played, he's been making this case more and more frequently. listen to what he said earlier in the week. >> i feel as a president you have to have immunity. very, very simple. if you don't, as an example, if this case were lost on immunity and i did nothing wrong. absolutely nothing work working for the country, and i worked on very hard on voter fraud, because we have to have free elections. >> tim, i want to tease out of that word solid is "i am working for the country." trying to make the case he was somehow in his duty as press investigating fraud that did not exist. we showed. thes on at the time, he said that. do you think a federal appeals

court buys this? >> no. absolutely not. as the argument in the federal appeals court made clear, taken to its logical extension his position acting in the country by assassinating a political rival, sending s.e.a.l. team 6 to kill someone, if it didn't, working, in his view for the people, it's okay? that can't be the law. ultimately for a jury of washington, d.c. citizens to decide if he intended to disrupt the joint session and if that meets the elements of a criminal statute. he can make that very same argument to a jury saying i was well-intentioned. thought in the best interests of the country and it's up to them to decide. court of appeals is not adjudicating to the fact. just adjudicating whether or not he has immunity for even standing trial for is alleged in the special counsel argument. he loses in tenure of questions coming from the appeals court and i'm not sure the supreme court takes the case. may essentially agree with the court of appeals rejection of immunity argument by denying and

in which case, time for trial. >> betsy, staying on the question whether will matter more. during immunity claims all three judges seem disinclined to adopt trump oral gu legal expects noted that trump's emphasis a in official capacity in 2020 may end up counterproductive for him. those actions equally at inappropriate and illicit if undertaken as a candidate or a president. even if trump, betsy, can make the argument he was acting as president still might not save him? >> yeah. that's right. this key issue of, are you allowed to try to conspire to everse election results, whether or not you're wearing your president hat when you're doing it, that issue is going to persist regardless where the judges and ultimately the supreme court come down on this immunity question.

what's especially interesting as we talk about this nervy and pivotal question an presidential immunity, a different group of judges in the d.c. circuit all right weighed in on this and taken a decision against trumps. days, weeks, after election day 2020, he was acting in his personal capacity. there's a litigation against trump that eessentially suing him for inciting the riot and appellate on that circuit site sided with lit against against trump and noticeably reached that decision specifically cited the fact that all the way back, back in late 2020, early 2021, donald trump was filing these lawsuits and explicitly saying that he was acting in his personal capacity as a candidate. the very piece of evidence that we wrote about in this piece has

already been weighed by a panel of judges and found to be a problem for trump. >> betsy, pivotal questions and nerves ones only ones i'm interested in. why we're friends. trump and his attorneys tried again to derail smith investigation, delay, obstruct. based on your reporting do you understand the claim of presidential immunity to be extension of that effort or if trump's legal team actually believes this could succeed? >> i think both. there's no down side to them, from making this argument, because without a doubt slows down the process. the longer the process takes in view of trump's team from a tactical standpoint better it, woulds. same time trump and the lawyers surrounding him most part are from this federalist society and very conservative view of executive power and expansive executive power and a view that presidents basically embody the government and deserve a substantial amount of authority

and protection for the acts they take while in office. this school of thought also tends to take the perspective that the executive branch should be as shields as possible from the influence of the other two, of course, coequal branches of government. this is a school of thought not new whatsoever to the trump era. it was very important during the war on terror during the bush administration. goes back. not a new thing, but trump's lawyers and people around him are very much in that conservative legal tradition and that's very much consistent with this um immunity argument. >> tim, 30 second. do you agree? >> 100%, exactly right. long-term robust executive power doesn't matter acting as president or a candidate. doing things that are unlawful it is arguably not protected by anything and up to a jury to

decide. >> betsy, on that great piece from politico, and tim, thank you for spending time with us. up next, lawyers for donald trump and co-defendants back in fulton county georgia courtroom today. at issue more than half a dozen motions from giuliani's witness list to whether or not specific video evidence can be used at trial. the very latest on this afternoon's hearing and allies for the ex-president seeking to cause a serious distraction to all of it. balanced nutrition for strength and energy. yay - woo hoo! ensure, with 27 vitamins and minerals, nutrients for immune health. and ensure complete with 30 grams of protein. (♪♪)

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donald trump's troubles in georgia back in the spotlight today. a hearing in fulton county and a number of procedural motions in the ex-president's election interference case. the focus on fulton county prosecutors appearing in public first time since unsubstantiated circumstances surfaced district attorney fani willis hired a romantic partnero prosecute trump and benefitd from their lationship. for the atlantic journal constitution, a spokesman said it will be addressed in an upcoming court filing but the timing is unclear. overseeing the case, waiting until after willis responds to the allegations for specialing a hearing on the matter, likely next month. the hearing did address trump the request to obtain additional information about correspondents between fani willis and the january 6th committee. willis' team saying nothing they learned from the committee was not already released publicly. joining us, political reporter

greg blustein and president and host of politics nation here on msnbc, the reverend al sharpton. greg, republicans have seized on those it unsubstantiated comments about fani willis. talk both about their motivation and whether or not any of this would change the facts of the case? >> the key word here, it's unsubstantiated, but because fani willis and nathan wade, the special prosecutor also involved in these unsubstantiated claims, left a void for republicans in georgia, in washington on the campaign trail using these to fuel politicized accusations against fani willis saying she should be reprimanded by the republican-led house judiciary committee launching a formal investigation into hnath's wade. nathan wade and reprimanding

fani willis here in atlantic. and a lot of democrats are concerned. there is a vacuum, no response from fani willis and her team, her allies. saying it's forthcoming in a court filing. until that comes a lot of unanswered questions. >> in that vacuum, marjorie taylor greene filing a criminal complaint against willis. what do you think? what is this all about? >> certainly we know that this congresswoman engages in political theater. since no one knows what the response is and since there's no substantiation at all, or no one giving any kind of evidence to support any allegation, then what is she talking about? when you have on the other side a guy she's supporting for president that's facing 91 felonies and several civil cases, that doesn't bother her

at all. he should be president of the united states. so it would be laughable if it wasn't so silly. >> all right. back to the substance here. greg, part of what was addressed today reporting from politico about a meeting between the january 6th committ and fani willis' team. committee staff quietly met with agents working for fulton county district attorney fani willis in mid-april 2022 as she prepared to convene a special grand jury investigation. in the previously unreported meeting the january 6th committee aides let the district attorney's team review but not keep a limited set of evidence gathered. trump's team wants information about this meeting, what do you think they could learn that has not already been released publicly by the committee, greg? >> that's the big question. this is part of the republican narrative there's collusion between joe biden's administration and district attorney fani willis who said, said at one point she didn't even know if jack smith would be

able to smell her name. now she's a little more famous. that was a few months ago. same time nathan wade and other prosecutors say they didn't keep notes and nothing from that committee meeting, no documents from that committee meeting were secret. all revealed during the january 6th kmm committee testimony. saying nothing secret. no secret part of that meeting. >> rev, also saw emotion from rudy giuliani interviewed with four cooperating defendants. his lawyer wants to terview them without the state present. how much do y think he is worried about what it is they will say about him to investigators? >> i think he's ied. i mean, for him to say that he wants his lawyer to interview them without the state present is clearly a way of them trying to gauge at best what they're going to say and at worse try to in some way persuade them not to

say certain things that would compromise rudy giuliani. let's not forget, rudy giuliani was a u.s. attorney. he knows very well the boundaries that he can and cannot do when you are a defendant and you have witnesses against you that can give primary evidence against you. so this is not just a shot in the dark. this is an attempt to try everything that you can possibly do to stall the process and to try to blur the vision of people watching this in the public. >> greg, anything else stand out to you at the hearing today? >> just the timeline now. the earliest, february hearing, that involves these claims. donald trump's attorney said he wants a chance to review the response by fani willis and her team of prosecutors before deciding whether to join a motion to dismiss the case. talked earlier about whether or not there is a legal case to undermine this entire prosecution. mostly experts say, no, but there is worries about the

optics it plays into that republican narrative this case is politicized and anxiously waiting to hear fani willis's response. >> thank you for spending time with us. reverend al sticking with me. a quick break. will president joe biden's re-election campaign rely again on many democrats of the progressive left? author of a brand new book on that very topic joins us next. h uncontrollable movements called td, tardive dyskinesia. td can be caused by some mental health meds. and it's unlikely to improve without treatment. i felt like my movements were in the spotlight. #1-prescribed ingrezza is the only td treatment for adults that's always one pill, once daily. ingrezza 80 mg is proven to reduce td movements in 7 out of 10 people. people taking ingrezza can stay on most mental health meds. ingrezza can cause depression, suicidal thoughts, or actions in patients with huntington's disease. pay close attention to and call your doctor if you become depressed, have sudden changes in mood, behaviors, feelings, or have thoughts of suicide.

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the choice facing america is simple. it's the choice between historic prosperity under my pro-american policies or very crippling poverty and a steep depression under the radical left. >> almost sounds like he's hoping a depression happens. that was donald trump a month before the 2020 election predicting leftist doom and gloom if joe biden were elected. unfortunately for trump opposite is true. biden did adopt many policies of donald trump's favorite boogiemen on the left, alexandria ocasio cortez and it's warned, elizabeth warren. manufacturing growth outpaces rest of the world and the president's policies spurred private investment in the economy. meanwhile, jump's 2024 economic vision for america seems to be prossing his fingers and hoping the economy crashes. joining our conversation, joshua green bloomberg business week woo national correspondent and author of a new book out this week, "the rebels: a look at the

upcoming president's election and role for others." the rev is back with us. how do you see ideas of the left reflected in biden's economic success? >> i think the intro captured it great. the book is story about the rise of this brand of left-wing populism since the 2008 financial crash. all three of my characters helped bring that about. one thing that distinguished joe biden's presidency he's taken up and implemented a lot of it. especially economic front and also the climate front. biden took office for all that trump talks about what a great economy pe presided over, biden took office with a free fall after the pandemic and those ideas helped prout a really strong economy we have today. one reason by trump said earlier he's rooting for the economy to crash because these populist ideas going into the election year really look like they're going to help joe biden.

>> josh, you mentioned the three characters in your book, warren, sanders, aoc. and in fact, it's president biden. the populist idea outside of fox news, perhaps, generally pretty moderate in politics. >> yeah. >> this book explores sort of a urn it towards economic populism. biden's populist turn an unexpected quota to a long career first established him as a business-friendly democrat. although always crafted his political persona arod his ue collar upbringing. biden resting the corporate haven of dellway teasingly once known at the senator fro corporate america. bite the time he became president fincial crisis of 2008, backlash delivering trump to the white house led biden to alter his approh in a way paradoxic many seeming to people with older vintage of him. what was behind that shift? was it really just those

atmospherics or also a different side of folks in this ear? >> a great question. look, i think what it really was, that joe biden was in the white house with barack obama's vice president fter the financial creche gave rise to his populist. drove it lack of a satisfying recovery for middle class. years of austerity. job loss, took years to recover. biden, to his credit, recognized coming into office after the covid crash he needed to do something differently. these populist ideas esherbal willy the economic ones presented him an opportunity to respond to a big financial crash in a different way. you don't have to look further than the unemployment numbers which are historic lows. stock market historic high. economically things are all pointing in the right direction. that's what you really want if you're an incumbent president running for re-election. not reflected necessarily in

poll in numbers. economic numbers things are pointing up and i think trump is nervous about it explaining the comments made this week openly rooting for the u.s. economy to crash. >> right. rev, many reasons i find josh's book compelling and interesting. among them the facts you have some republicans not knowing what to tie themselves to, deficit, economic, no trouble running it up under the former president. and soon to be co-host remind me, biden coalition was a unique coalition on to biden himself, and part of what that imp innocented was a lot of progressive voters might have had reserve apgs perceived biden as moderate. he will need to bring those voters back into the fold going into 2024, rev? >> he will need to bring them back, but i think that josh's book brings us into a

conversation that i think is needed to be had. when you deal with the three people that he focused on, sanders and senator warren and ocasio-cortez, i've worked with all of them. they should be given credit for being marginalized and mainstreaming issue as. i think joe biden began to see as the vice president, under president obama trying to make affordable health care look like a socialist program. some of these issues were not as radical as projected. he worked them. i think these issues that were seen as marginal became mainstream. same thing happened in other areas'si remember the '90s. we marched on joe biden, bill clinton around social justice issues, police brutality, putting people in jail with mandatory sentences. he's now become the president that gave us the george floyd

executive order and pushed for the bill. so i think that it is important what josh is doing to show that some of those that were the outers, rebels, he calls them, were able to deal with mainstreaming issues. i think rather than biden shifting or them shifting, i think they kind of met mid-stream. sort of happened in '80s and '90s with jesse jackson. sometimes what becomes, looks as a stream becomes mainstream if you can hold on long enough. >> josh, give you a chance to address that sort of bigger point and also talk how today you had the president talk abou how you had the president announcing more student debt relief. borrowers who receive less than $12,000 in federal loans and have been paying off balances for ten years will get their remaining debt cancelled in february. i can't tell you -- i'm sure you have the number of friends who have the gotten extraordinarily emotional because of the difference that something like

this can make in a person's life and the economy as a whole. >> that's right. this is a perfect example of what i write about in the book. it's student loan cancellation is something that warren sanders and alexandria ocasio-cortez have all pushed. joe biden has taken up and mainstreamed that idea. to respond to points, i would point out further that in the idea of mainstreaming this stuff, we're used to covering the democratic party as though there's an antagonistic split between the left and the right. there really isn't anymore. the joe biden has gone a long way in unifying the two branches of the party. i think it's telling that neither warren nor sanders, nor alexandria ocasio-cortez, who will be eligible to run for president in 2024 if she wanted to, have decided to challenge him. instead, they are behind his candidate us is. that shows the extnt to which these ideas have come together under the democratic tent.

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some news about the ex-president's the wallet. a judge has ordered donald trump to pay $40,000 for legal fees

connected to the loss against "the new york times," including sue craig. the judge threw out the lawsuit citing news gathering should always be protected by the first amendment. that's not the only pain the ex-president as to watch out for. on tuesday he will face e. jean carroll in court, a trial he will attempt in person. carroll is asking for $10 million in dama that number might claim eve higher if the jury decides to impose punitivees over and over again. if you want more of this story and all of the legal stories covered here on deadline white house, i want you to sign up for the deadline legal newsletter. it's delivered to your inboxes every friday. you can scan the qr code on your screen to subscribe. much more deadline white house to come. i'll see you again tomorrow morning a at 8:00 a.m. for the

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in terms of how we got here, on november 19th, we started to see the houthis conducting these indiscriminate attacks against commercial vessels putting mariners at risk. we have had 27 attacks since mid-november. early january, 14 nations and the united states all issued a warning to the houthis that that type of illegal activity needed to stop or there would be consequences. last night there were

consequences. >> hi, everyone. it's 5:00 in new york. i'm allie velshi. we're waiting for response to the strikes. as you heard from the pentagon press secretary, then there were two dozen attacks on ships in the red sea, which is a critical passageway for commercial shipping worldwide. now to put this area into significance, 17,000 ships carrying $1 trillion worth of goods go through the canal every year. in response to the attacks in recent weeks, serve of the ten companies have rerouted their ships away from the canal adding thousands of miles and over a week of time to their trips. the houthis say they have only targeted ships connected to

israel. that's a claim the biden administration disputes. now according to the white house, last night's strikes by fighter jets and missiles, which included over 60 targets across 16 locations were aimed at deterring more attacks by the houthis who have is already used anti-ship missiles for the first me in hist president biden saying in a stement these targeted strikes are a clear message that the united states and our partners will not tolerate attacks on our personneor allow hostile actors for freedom of navigation in wasn't of the most critical commercial routes. i will not hesitate to direct further measures to protect our people and the free flow of international commerce as necessary. the strikes were aimed at command and control nodes, launching systems, production facilities, and air defense radar systems, that's according to u.s. air force central. the houthis say the strikes

killed five militants and injured six others and have vowed retaliation. concerning that much of that escalation could broaden the conflict in the middle east beyond israel's war in gaza. this afternoon while visiting small businesses in pennsylvania, president biden answered some questions about the strikes. >> i have already delivered the message. we will make sure that we respond to the houthis if they continue this jout ray jous behavior along with our allies. no, iran does not want a war with us. i think they are. >> that's where we start this hour live in tehran, iran. let's talk about this. what's your take on it from that side? joe biden ended those comments by saying iran does not want a war with us. obviously, when people think about houthi attacks, they think

about iran because it's a group that is backed financially and militarily by iran. >> reporter: look, there's a legitimate fear this dally diet of drone strikes by militias backed by iran, assassinations of the militia heads and maritime assaults by the houthis are all the ingredients needed to make this region come bust into a major and all that happens in the middle east. they have the ability to raise and lower the temperature at will and right now, they are cranking up the pressure through their proxies. and that's because they don't want a direct fight with the united states. they are no military match for the united states. they will either the losses and that, dwis lodge the regime or

weaken them. that's not a risk they want to take. so iran makes up for its lack of regional diplomatic clout through the acts of resistance. that was the last thing they ordered in 2020. iran supplies trains and directs these militias operating in and outside of these governments in syria and in yemen to try and hold the west to some sort of economic and political siege. this is where they have their power. they are reeking havoc in the red sea right now with the houthis. the cost of oil has gone up. the cost of shipping has gone up. insurance has gone up. it may affect inflation, and this is all good for tehran. so farce they are concerned, the leadership here in tehran, sitting here in iran, they feel

untouchable and they have all of these my militias doing their dirty work for them so the fight never lasts on iranian soil. >> what is the sense of you talk about iran has the ability the to ratchet et up the temperature or bring it down. what does this particular thing do in that sense? if iron wants to ratchet it up, does it do it through these proxies or does iran get dragged into it because of what they have done or america retaliates? >> they do it through the proxies. this is why thigh developed the proxies over the last four decades. they are their front line. they will push them as far as necessary to put the united states under pressure and to put israel under pressure with the ultimate goal of expelling them from this region, to have their

own here. it's very unlikely iran will get involved in a direct fight with them. i don't even think iran will get involved in a direct fight if they take a direct hit. that's what they have hezbollah for. that's one of the reasons they haven't pushed hezbollah too far in this hamas/israel war, because they are saving hezbollah for themselves. if iran got attacked, they would unleash the full potential against anybody in the region. the war on iranian soil is the absolute last thing they want. and that's why you have -- if you take it on the higher end of the estimate, you put up all of these militias in the region together. they come close to 200,000 fighters that have all been well armed by iran. that giver gives a lot of buffer from getting hit from the united states or israel.

and that can also inflame the region without iran getting involved in a direct war. so they have been very clever on how they have created all of these proxies to protect themselves, and it gives them a very thin veneer of plausible deniability. if you look at the situation, we all know they are behind all of these proxies. they train them. they fund them. they direct them. but nobody has been able to say that iran has been directly behind what hamas did, what the houthis have done, what the my ly shas do. it gives them that thin veneer of plausible deniability to say we support them, but we're not directing them. we're not telling them what to do. but the fact of the matter is they wield an awful lot of influence over all of these people. they wouldn't be funding them, they wouldn't be training them, they wouldn't be giving them hundreds of millions of dollars if they couldn't direct them.

>> thank you. you're staying up late for us in tehran. we appreciate that. let's bring in the senior diplomatic correspondent for the huffington post, who has been right in front of this story the whole time. let me ask you about that. talk to me about the houthis and to what degree they are independent and make their decision. >> sure. the militant group, they have been in control of large parts of the country and yemen's capital. most of the population centers in yemen, one of the things they have become empowered and seen this influence pose a risk to the u.s. and allies in large part because of actions by the

u.s. and its allies. because since 2015 a, saudi arabia, they have u.s. support and involved in yem. during a that process since 2015 as the symbol of war has reached, the houthiss have come a lot closer iran than they were before. it's safe to call them close friends of iran. i wouldn't say iran is their boss. i wouldn't say iran is telling them what to do, but certainly it benefits iran having the houthis distracting the u.s. from iran and its proxies elsewhere. >> to that point, there was a violent war between saudi arabia and the group that is now the houthis. that war was supported by president the united states. it has ended up in one of the worst humanitarian crises in the world. so it's not a lot of love lost between the lieutenanties and america right now. >> there's not. and there is from that point of

view, there's a real benefit of being seen as being in conflict with the u.s., with israel, with u.s. allies because they can say, look, these were the people who helped blockade the country for years, driving up prices, pushing millions to the point of starvation. these with the people who supplied the bombs with which saudi arabia, the uae bombed yemen committing hundreds of war crimes. so from a houthi perspective, it's a great rallying cry. we have deterred them. we have degraded the capabilities and we have to wait for the intelligence and military assessment ins to tell us in the houthis even stopped. but in terms of houthi moral, last night's strikes were a huge gift. >> are we meant to be surprised by the caabilities that the houthis have had in the last since november? the military capability that

they have had in attacking some of the ships i think is not something we had seen before. >> it's tremendous. suddenly, it speaks to the ties they have to to iran and lebanon, this whole network. that's also why that they stop these attacks. doing these attacks has broughten new weapons, new support, and i think that's why as the u.s. and biden administration now because last night was not the final word by any means. so now they are looking at better armed, more strategic and more popular than they have ever been. and ud seasonally when the u.s. first began fighting nem 2015. >> we appreciate your reporting on this.

thank you. the senior diplomatic correspondent for "the huffington post." joining us now is the ranking member congressman mooeks of new york. thank you for being with us. a lot of talking from democrats and republicans about whether or not this military action required congressional report being undertaken. your thoughts? >> i will say that the president did advise members of congress, i being one of them, required to the strikes that this was appropriate given the threat, the immediate threat to our commercial ships in the area as well as our personnel in that nature. so i look forward to continuing to work with the white house to make sure we know what is planned going forward. and continuously involved in that regard. so i think the white house has done and agree with the strike they made.

it was previous to the strikes. >> talk to me about whether or not anything else. we heard president biden saying we'll do whatever we have to do to secure our troops and commercial shipping. is there a point at which this has to go before congress? >> i think that there's got to be continuing communication with congress. we have to have an understanding of what's taken place. i think if we're looking at something that's going to be long-term, it may very well require congress to make some action, but i think that right now, the mandate that the administration has is being met. and i think what the president is saying, if because the president is clear he does not want an escalation. he's warned the houthis over and

over and over again as well as others in the area. do not get involved. to not continue to move forward with the kind of threats and destruction that they wanted to on our commercial ships and the economic well being of not only the united states, but of all of our alies also. that's why you saw multiple countries being involved and included like the nether left-hand side and uk and canada and australia. this would awefect all of us. so if they decide to continue, then they know the united states know where they are, know what they have and we will do something to prevent that from happening. >> talk to me about what does -- what the president is allowed to do independently and how that's justified in terms of immediate threat? clearly, the houthis have more military capability than many of us thought they had. clearly, they have had threats

on commercial shipping. but what part convinced you that that was eminent and needed to be done rather than going through what article 1 of the institution would require the president to do. >> the escalation that took place last tuesday, where there was over 20 rockets that were fired at our commercial vehicles and some of our ships. that shows they can do something the next day. they did have those capabilities. something had had to be done immediately to say we were not going to allow that to happen. and that response between the targeted response it wasn't a response that was huge. it was a very targeted response. it was adequate by the administration under article 2. >> congressman, always appreciate talking to you. you always have a lot of information and nuance around these complicated topics. thank you for joining us this afternoon. congressman mooex. much more ahead on the houthi targets.

why the u.s. and partners retaliated now after weeks of houthi attacks and the incredible impact that those attacks are having on the global shipping industry. the former cia director joins us next. plus donald trump's efforts to delay, deny and gum up the legal system to avoid facing accountability. it's part of a tried and true playbook for the disgraced ex-president. the damage is now that he's now doing to democracy in the next hour. and the new low that florida's book banning crusade has reached. why dictionaries are coming off the shelves in school libraries. deadline white house continues after a quick break. aries. deadline white house continues after a quick break. lp make trag feel effortless. and its customizable scans with social sentiment help you find and unlock opportunities in the market. e*trade from morgan stanley. with powerful, easy-to-use tools, power e*trade makes complex trading easier. react to fast-moving markets with dynamic charting and a futures ladder that lets you place, flatten, or reverse orders so you won't miss an opportunity.

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as we have been discussing, the strikes on the iran-backed are rebels were instigated by tacks on commercial ships largely in the red sea. the attacks have been going on for weeks and increased in intensity since the start of the war. they sigfintly disrupt the flow of commercial goods. take a look. you can s the canal in the top middle of the screen. you can see israel right there next to it. you see the red sea. you see the bottom of the red sea, the gulf of aiden is where the ships go through. it's a route that is absolutely vital to trade between asia and western countries. now a majority of the biggest shippers in the world say they are not going to risk shipping through the canal. opting to go around africa and the cape of good hope. that route can cause up to two weeks in delays and add significant costs to insurance and fueling. price of oil is up as a result

of this. it causes a huge strain on gloeshl supply chains, something we haven't seen for a couple years. joining our conversation is the former cia director, john brennan. good to see you. thank you for being with us. i'm talking about this as an economics guy, but talk to me about it from your perspective as an intelligence expert and why this essentially economic and commercial issue became something that the united states and the united kingdom decided they needed to deal with militarily. >> i think you described it very well in the opening there it. the escalatory nature of the strikes that the houthis have been carrying out, the fact that the tempo is increasing and has been on going for weeks, it's having an impact not just in terms of the potential danger that it poses to israel as well as to its national shipping in the red sea, but also what is happening now with international navigation that they are bypassing the red sea. so the biden administration has been very careful, measured and thoughtful in terms of how they were going to approach this.

they issued very stern public warnings to the houthis. they also consulted with the allies and many of our partners because they were partners that participate in these strikes. they also consulted with congress. i was glad to hear the ranking member meeks reference the advice that was done before the strikes took place. i think the administration wanted to make sure there was not going to be any further escalation. is it going to deter the houthis, it's questionable. i tend to doubt they are going to stop these attacks. but the intention was also to degrade the capabilities that the houthis have which have been provided by the iranians over the last several decades. these are ford mid-able as far as drones and missiles. they can do things in the air, on the seas, and so i think this is something that the united states takes seriously because of its role in trying to ensure the international navigation and

shipping and supply chans won't be disrupted by a rebel group. >> let's talk about who the houthis are. they have risen to much greater levels of strength than they were at when you were the cia director. we talk about rebel groups. that could mean anything. that could be guys with side arms to the sophisticated weaponry that the houthis now have. are you surprised at or did you sort of know the trajectory of how powerful the houthis have become? >> unfortunately, yemen's recent history is a tragic one. ever since the arab spring, there's been conflict and high vooi lens. and they basically control the western portion of thecotry. they have long been the force, the dominant force in yemen for ma years. but after the ab ring and because of that strife, they have been able to take over

cluding the capital. many areas of yemen that they were dominant over. they control the coastline and this is where the r s comes into the gulf of aiden, and the fact that they have. provided this sophisticated weaponry by iran over the last dozen years or so, they really now are a formidable force. and this is something that they now can use against the national shipping, against u.s. vessels, as well as against israel. so again, i think the biden administration did not rush to carry out these strikes. it's been many weeks they have been carrying them out. this is something that i don't think the biden administration could allow to continue to go on. >> director, what is the discussion that's going on among some members of congress about why the president would have been compelled to first get congressional authorization for this. how do you understand the

distinction between what the president was allowed to do versus what they are saying he needed to get that as congressional authorization first. >> i think some members of congress really need to read the war powers act, which is the law that governs the ability of a president to use force to be able to confront national security threats. according to the war powers act, the president after consulting the congress, he or she is going to take action, has the ability to carry out military action in order to protect national security. he can do it for 60 days. there has to be close and constant cob subtleation with the congress and the committees of jurisdiction are getting briefings, but this is consistent with the legislation with the laws that the congress passed to try to govern the ability of a president to carry out military action. so i do think the biden administration is consistent

with the law. >> what's the argument that is protecting -- i'm an economics guy, so it's important. is protecting shipping interests a national priority? >> i think it is. but also i think there are real risks in terms of how the houthis were using these cruise missiles and directing them against israel, where u.s. does have a presence in terms of personnel and the fact that we do have the ability to shoot down a lot of these drones and missiles, it doesn't mean that it's going to be a fail safe capability that we have. so yes, we are benefitting commercial shipping from the standpoint of making sure that the supply chains that really are critically important not only to our economic well being, but also to national security. this is something that i think the biden administration takes very seriously. so i think there were a combination of factors that led the biden administration to decide we cannot allow the houthis to continue to ratchet

up the pressure. who knows what might happen and if a civilian or official might be the killed or injued as a result. >> john, always a pleasure to talk to you. the former cia director, we appreciate you spending time with us. when we return, the twice impeached ex-president facing the deepest legal peril of his life. now his long ability to grind down the legal system is being put to its biggest test yet. back with that, after a short break. h that, after a short break.

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what we are witnessing this week alone, an x president and candidates overlapping consuming legal proceedings, claims of immunity, it's unquestionably alarming is and it's unpress debited nature in the damage that it's doinemocracy. but this is the culmination of decades of preparation in an extraordinary new piece for politico about how donald trump came to view conflict in court, not as the cost of doing business, but rather how he does business and the legal system as a whole, quote, his most potent tactic to any and all successes he's had. it's a great read. starting in 1973, he explains when the federal government sued trump and his father for racist rental practices, trump got his first tutorial from his new

lawyer. who turned the proceedings into a public spectacle, with accusations of a smear campaign d a frivolous countersuit. donald trump would pctice on his own what he learned that lawsuits were a central as public relations or loans from banks to the building of trump's businesses and his brand. in the 1980s, he sued everyone from businessmen with the the same last night, to rent-control tenants and their lawyer toos. in the '90s, donald trump sued palm beach county over airport noise and he got a golf course through the settlement. becoming in the process his own roy combs. yoouzing the legal system to play vict, accuse governments of smearment campaigns and later political support. now threatening our democracy. a e, legal terrorist, according to the congressman

eric swalwell. a legal combatant who has altered the very way we view the justice system as a whole for whom it has been a lifelong project. joining our conversation is the former assistant attorney general for the u.s. department of justice mary mccord. also joining us former congressman from florida the political analyst david jolly. welcome to both of you. i think that article is really worth the read for those who haven't fully registered that in most of our lives, the inside of a court, a lawsuit, and a lawyer are elements of last resort. we try to avoid getting there. if we have to, we have to. for donald trump, it's not a never has been. it is central to not just his life, but most of his successes. suing and threatening litigation is what he does. >> that's absolutely right. i do commend reading that article to all of your viewers.

it catalogs in a way i hadn't seen elsewhere. it's such a history of coopting the legal system for trump's own purposes. just like he tried to cop is and the purposes clearly political purposes. using it for campaigning, and there was nothing he was possibly going to say or even could have thought that he was saying that would move the needle on the law or the facts with the judge yesterday. he was using it to attack the judge, attack the attorney general, attack the entire legal system, yet this is something he's been coopting his own life. his whole life. it's very much like he coopted the presidency when he was in power. coopted it to use it for a different purpose than it has historically bye-bye used for, tried to coopt the department of justice, coopt the executive branch, disregard separations of

powers. the problem with doing that and not abiding by the rules and having this anything goes regardless of if it's within the bounds of what the court has said, what we have seen people start believing them. fear that the judges are also a fraud. everything against him is a political witch hunt. people start believing that, unfortunately. he has this amazing ability, i think in many ways torks coopt the american public. it's very, very dangerous for our system and for the rule of law. >> there are many lines in that story that were interestin me, but one is where he quotes ian baa sin. our democracy rests on a foundation of trust. trust in elections, trust

institutions. and you know what scares me the most about trump? it's not the sledge hammer he's taken to the structure of our national house, he told me. it's the termites he's unleashed into the foundation. and that really stuck with me. that's the issue. donald trump is donald trump. maybe convicted, who knows what happens to him. maybe he will be president, maybe he will go away. but the termites will be around for awhile. >> and donald trump is not going away. i would say several elements of this are fascinating. he kind of translates the grievance as a strategy in his business and courtroom to grievance as a strategy in the politics. one of those fwree advances is this ability to chip away at the institutions we once had trust in. the termites left in the room, if you will. that is really where the danger is. i think something mary said is critical to his success with grievance as a strategy and eating away at the institutions, which is he does repeat it

enough, people begin to believe it and follow it and affirm it. and at some point, we do have to turn the mirror on ourselves because as a nation, we are split 50/50 and many are working very hard against the rise of donald trump. still, he might return to the white house. this is somebody who despite this profile, this child-like temperament, the abuse and business practices and litigation practices, the abuse of public office, still enough americans might we want him become in the white house as our leader and some point that's on us as much as it is on the former president. >> i think one of the take aways of this, and you talk about these things on your podcast. for the rest of us, looking at all of the legal struggles that donald trump faces in the 91 indictments, we think that would be horrible. he relishes it, but he feels comfortable in litigious

environment. th judge says he's attacked the judicial system, our s of justice and the rule of law his entire life. and this to him is the grand finale. it's of surpassing importance, but it doesn't change the fact he's already laid waste to our democracy and our elections and our rule of the law. he's saying this is a big act for him. this is not him getting away with prosecution. this is him actually proving he can beat the system. >> that's certainly what he's trying to do. not only what is in this remarkable article that talks about him viewing these prosecutions as a real boom to the campaign, but the data in terms of his fundraising shows that it was a real boom to his campaign. this point about the rule of law, i think it's a term we band about a lot.

it's worth taking a a moment. it's a system of laws that both the governed and the government agree to be bound by. it requires transparency in the enactment and the enforcement of those lus so there's stability and predictability. it requires a fair legal system by which rights and responsibilities are adjudicated equally to all participants and a diverse and competent judiciary. these are things that we bought into as americans. and by and large, the vast majority of us we abide by that rule of law. when we're sued, we get a lawyer and participate. if someone is charged with a crime, they get a lur. they defend themselves or in many cases they plead guilty and accept responsibility and accountable thety where they have done something wrong. mr. trump are fuse fog and

refusing to just be beyond by which the rest of us feel that it's bound. that's why these attacks i think that's why the judge and other people i know and respect well are so concerned as i am and the two of you with the damage that this is doing to our very bedrock fundamental principles of how we gompb ourselves in this country. >> so one of the things about listening to mahmoud i ri talk about that is she speaks about things that we don't really all think about. we all kind of agree that's the way our society works. we may not know how to resite and articulate it that way, but we get that. so when you said let's turn the mirror on ourself. at some point, when does the voter, maybe all of us, maybe some republican voters, maybe those who still standby donald

trump say there's you flouted it. not you're not in on the deal. why did the republican party, which always thought itself the party of the rule of law, allow that to happen? >> because donald trump's launched a cultural movement and he parked it within a political party. and cultural movements take a long time to work their way out of the system. i don't think there's a quick correction to the coalition he started. he started a cultural movement around grievance and suspicious. this warfare against the ruling class and the very institutions that we should be trying to uphold as voters. forget the leaders for a moment. but he has convinced enough americans that the way forward is to tear down these institutions. when's a swifter way towards correction? and i think it is in the institutions themselves. i think you and i have talked one of my great concerns about

what we witness in the last four to six years is the latency of our justice system and the ability of donald trump to abuse it. the phrase the wheels of justice grind slowly but exceedingly fine, maybe those wheels need to be sped up a little bit. there are always good reasons it takes a lopg time to prosecute cases, but it is fairly true. if donald trump had not run for president, he probably would not be in criminal court in manhattan. and why is impeachment such a partisan affair now and why does it take so long to hold someone accountable. the institutions we're talking about protecting perhaps need to speed up their systems themselves. that doesn't require voters to do it. that simply requires the justice system the to work a little harder and a little more efficiently. i think what donald trump has exposed is in the world of politics, there's a latency for accountability.

maybe even a hesitancy. >> we have talked to that. i think there's much more to talk about on that particular topic. thank you for making complicated issues very clear to us. david, stick around for just a moment. when we return, how one of ron desantis' achievements in florida has reached a new and ridiculous low. ts in florida has reached a new and ridiculous low she found it. the feeling of finding the psoriasis treatment she's been looking for. she found sotyktu, a once—daily pill for moderate—to—severe plaque psoriasis... for the chance at clear or almost clear skin. it's like the feeling of finding your back...

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book ban in florida. they don't want books in the library. that's a hoax. that's really a nasty hoax buzz it's a hoax in service of trying to pollute and sexual liez our children. >> that's a hoax. just put a pin in that for a second. obviously, that was the florida governor ron desantis last year at a press conference designated to counter claims that the laws he's pushing are leading to book bans in it schools or the book ban hoax. desantis claiming if books are removed it's just to protect our kids from being groomed. big accusation. however, this week there's new recently removed for endangering florida's children. "thengton post" reporting webster's dictionary for students, thenta dictionary, the american heritage children's dictionary and other titles were pulled

from schools in florida where officials are reviewing books for compliance witthe laws prohibition on materials with sexual content. also investigated were the world book of people and polices, the world almanac and book of facts on topics including science, mythology and the bible. desantis might want to head to his local library and look up the definition of hoax. that's if they have a copy of the dictionary on their shelves. we're back with david jolly. we know what the facts are in florida. we see it. i have it on my book club. they are remarkable contributors to the book club. but i don't' even know ron desantis pretends. this is his thing. i am going to be the antiwoke police, woke people write these books that are going to sexual liez your children. i'll take care of it. >> that's right. and it also reveals the important role of the press. because ron desantis has been insulated by a super majority

republican government. so they do these things without really any means of accountability other than public exposure. when that sunlight hits, you see ron desantis take off running and he sherks a bit. but the book banning is absolutely real in florida. and in this case, the article that you're citing and talking about is the part of florida we call l.a. it is the heart of the bible belt. and so it is kind of ground zero in florida for some of the most as degreesive book banning. the other element of this, the assay gent element is that ron desantis is actively recruiting school board candidates to flip school boards throughout the state. so they can make further decisions regarding book banning. he is trying to insulate himself even more by flipping school boards around the state. >> but this is the answer to the problem, david jolly. you just said it. in bucks county, pennsylvania, where there was a school board that was banning books in the same fashion, a number of regular people who otherwise

were not officeholders decided to run or support candidates for the school board. they overcame the majority and now in bucks county the majority of people believe in students being allowed to read books. this is the entry point for a lot of people in to politics who are frustrated with this. there is a way to fight back. take the page out of ron desantis' book. flip your school boards back. >> exactly right. i think the coalition is the same you see on the national level that elects democrats and joe biden. it is these past performing republicans, whether they were registered republicans or independents, perhaps they were part of a republican coalition, but since the rise of trumpism and people like donald trump and ron desantis and book bans, you see this new coalition of the soft republicans siding with democrats. in the case of book bans, families saying, wait a minute. i want our children to be exposed to all types of thinking, literature, all types

of academics and they can make a decision and we can make a decision at home. what is the right compass, the right orientation for our family and child as they grow up to make their own decisions. you only get to do that in a state that allows exposure through all types of writings and thought. ron desantis is somebody i call a big government conservative. they use the tools of government for conservative means and have largely abandoned the small government approach that was rooted in the origins of conservatism. >> nothing wrong with making choices for yourself and family about what you are going to read. don't hand that power to the state. do it yourself. choose anything you want to read. david, good to see you as always. all right. quick break for us. we'll be right back. we'll be right back. to beach we? fedex presents tall tales of true deliveries. so i grabbed the rings and hustled down the beach. who has the rings? i do... i mean, i do. okay... save wedding...all set.

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news today from the department of justice. in a court filing the doj announced it will the death penalty for the white gun man who killed ten people and injured three in a racist shooting in may of 2022 in buffalo, new york. this is the first time the biden administration has decided to seek the death penalty. the gunman posted a hate-filled white supremacist manifesto online was sentenced to life in prison without the chance of parole on state charges last ye after pleading guiltyo ten counts of first-degree murder and domestic terrorism motivated by hate. some family members of the victims have expressed disappoint, one saying he would have preferred he spend the rest of his life in prison, suffering every day. another break for to us.

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and thanks force spending part of your friday with us. "the beat with ari melber" starts now. >> thank you. welcome. live from new york where the iconic tree at our rockefeller center headquarters is still up tonight. a timeline we have been tracking with our guests who told us they usually have their family christmas trees down by now. but this post-holiday period is also known in politics as the campaign homestretch. we are three days out from the start of the 2024 race in iowa. we are seeing the candidates talk taxes, abortion and late-breaking criticism of donald trump.