>> well, that does it for a very first edition of the weekend. i am symone sanders-townsend alongside my friends, alicia menendez and michael steele. join us back here tomorrow at 8 am eastern because we will be talking with democratic congressman jamie raskin and he's got something to say about his battles with house oversight republicans and his new demand that donald trump returned payments that trump businesses received from foreign governments while he was in office. also, please be sure to follow the weekend on instagram, tiktok, and the site formally known as twitter. velshi starts right now. hi, ali. i would call you my best, but i do not want richard louis to be defended. >> fair enough. let me tell you, i slept well last night, i got a pretty to watch your show this morning. thought i would give a little bit of club live today and that i thought i was doing pretty well, then eugene daniels shows up on tv and is like, you know what? don't play in a rink you can't

skate in. >> the rest of us have to go home because eugene has upstage us all. >> congratulations of the further review. you're all separately great friends of mine and i love that this has come together so beautifully. we will be watching tomorrow and every weekend. congratulations and i will see while later. thank you. >> have a good night, ali. >> good morning to all of. u.s. saturday the 13th. i'm ali velshi. we are two days away now from the iowa republican caucuses. the first in the nation khamenei to contest that kicks off the 2024 election season. caucuses, as you may know, originally from that old school political tradition that demands that participants physically attend the meeting in order to participate. caucus goers have to sign in, they report to the respective precincts on monday night. beginning at seven pm, local time, representatives for each candidate to brief speeches in each case caucus -- candidate for choice in a secret ballot. there's no early voting, there is no absentee voting, there is no mail-in voting in this

instance, and the process can take a little while. this could also be the coldest iowa caucus is ever. current forecast for monday night include record sub-zero temperatures, which could affect turnout. but at this point, a force of nature might be the only thing that could prevent donald trump from winning and winning big. the latest poll out of iowa conducted by suffolk university earlier this month shows the former president leading the pack with 54% of likely republican caucus goers, saying that they plan to support him. his closest rival, look at this, nikki haley is 34 points behind at 20%. those numbers -- trump has the opportunity to smash the record for the largest margin of victory in iowa gop history for a non incumbent president. he was president once, but he's not the incumbent now. a record, by the way, currently held by bob dole, who won the 1988 caucuses by 13 points over pat robertson. historically, however, iowa has

been a poor predictor of the eventual gop nominee. bob dole, who won iowa, didn't win the gop presidential nomination in 1988. george h. w. bushid. the distant third place finisher in iowa that year. since 2000, the winner of the iowa caucuses has only become the eventual reblican presidential nominee once, when george w. bush won the state. mike huckab won in 2008, rick santorum in 2012, florida senator ted cruz eke out a victory over trump in 2016. but none of them ultimately became the nominee. now, victory in iowa this time around is going to be a comeback of sorts for trump. this will be the first time that he will compete in an election of any sort since he lost the 2020 presidential contest and inciting the january 6th insurrection, and was indicted on 91 criminal charges. if you're before trump will signal his official return to electoral politics, even as his own eligibility for running for office is under review by the

supreme court. trump also wants to wrap up the nomination as soon as possible, in order to avoid a prolonged primary battle, so he can shift's attention to the general election and to his myriad legal troubles. the results in iowa will set up the race to come and reveal who trump's main challenger is going to be. at the moment, that does appear to be the former south carolina governor, nikki haley. she is still a very distant second place in iowa, but she's showing strength in new hampshire, which will hold its primaries just eight days after iowa. a poll conducted by cnn at the university of new hampshire last week showed healy trailing trump by only seven points, but a second poll that will conduct around the same time found healy trailing trump by 20 points. it's a bit of a mixed bag, but there are two important takeaways for haley here. it shows that she's continuing to grow support in new hampshire, and she's putting some distance between herself and ron desantis. plus, both polls reaken before chris christie dropped out of the race on thursday night. polls also indicate that

haley's poised to benefit e most from christie's absence in the race, with a vast majity of chrissy supporters, 65%, saying that haley is their second choice. notably, desantis is nobody second choice, when it comes to crazy supporters. make no mistake, trump has a commanding lead in the national polls. he remains the outright favorite for the republican nomination, but there are some factors that could work into kayleigh's favor that could give her a fighting chance as the race heads to her home state of south carolina in february. among those factors, lawsuits, criminal cases, outstanding constitutional questions, and erratic candidate with authoritarian tendencies who could end up in jail. a boost of momentum out of ottawa could help haley last long enough to be the candidate waiting in the wings, should something historic up and this race. joining me live from the ground in des moines, iowa, is nbc news correspondent, vaughn hillyard. also with us is henry cox, political columnist for the new republican. host of the podcast, space the nation. welcome to both of you.

anna murray, great to see you again back on the show. it's been a while since we've had you and von, man, i don't know if you've ever been inside studio. i know you've been in the studio once, i know you've been indoors one-time. i only bring this up because it's predictable that it will be cold in iowa. in january. as you demonstrate right now, it is. but that's actually becoming a factor in monday's caucuses. >> right, absolutely. to quote our friend and producer, dan gallo, donald trump says that folks from rock over broken glass for him, but this go around come and a night, they will have to walk on black ice. the reality for these donald trump supporters is that there man has a sturdy lead in polls here and there are some concerns about potential complacency. donald trump has told his supporters to act like it's tied, ignore the fact that he's up by 30 points here, particularly when we're looking at the rural parts of the state, where donald trump is expected to do well. folks are going to have to get in their car, a car that's

going to be frigid cold. we're talking about wind chills on monday night of negative 35, negative 40 degrees, in some parts of the states,. they will have to get to their caucus site, parked their car, walk over that black ice, and get inside of the caucus venue. this is, i can't tell you how ghostly it is on the streets at des moines right now. we're just walking around down here and frankly, there is nobody out because it is so ghastly, devastatingly, delivery lee, i can't even speak here at this point, ali. like, it's tough. and so, now the question here is, are folks going to be engaged, excited enough to come out for nicky haley or run desantis? i think there's a lot of questions about this weather variable right now. >> i just texted our boss. i said, what did you put the f arizona out and iowa? i built for this. you're doing a great job there. vaughn, thank you. out of practically all the polls we've seen out of iowa show donald trump with other a big lead or a massive lead, but in a new piece for the new republic, you've written the conventional wisdom about the

2044 republican field iswrong. trump is not inevitable and nikki haley is the most dangerous candidate the gop is produced in a decade. she is also the most capable of beating joe biden. talk to me about what you mean there. >> well, i think that we have all these complicating factors in iowa, right? i mean, there's the weather, the 50 point lead. there's effect that iowa is always unpredictable and i just want to point out, not only do people have to leave their home, it's a two-hour commitment if you managed to win a caucus, but? and also, donald trump supporters lean to the older side and i don't know, i wouldn't want to put them on black ice, personally. so, we will see. i mean, it's going to be a real test of everyone's dedication and another big thing is something you've already pointed out, which is that iowa doesn't predict the presidency. i know he seems inevitable now, but do you remember 2016? do you remember how he seemed not inevitable at all? like we were all so confidently predicting that he would face

the -- eventually? i think that halle is an incredible candidate and this is, i don't know, maybe von saw this on the ground as well, that she's really skilled in person candidate. she has almost a bill -- quality. i would say in terms of being able to deliver a speech, the same speech, almost word for word, but it sounds personal, it sounds like she's making a connection. in that way, she's a traditional politician. but a lot of iowans i spoke to, well, they were sometimes like, two-time trump voters. they kind of miss having someone in office that's a little more reliable and also, they've seen trump lose. and so, i think that there is some concern in iowa about that and i think that's definitely what you're seeing in new hampshire, is that, can we get someone who will win? a matchup between biden and trump is not appealing to people. even though some of them do believe that trump actually did win the election in 2020, which they are wrong about.

but i think hailie has a path that makes her a really strong contender and i, when i think about her against joe biden on the stage, my hands curl into fists, i start to give the table a little bit, and i bet that's how the joe biden campaign team feels about it as well. >> vaughn, talk to me about that and all the things that make up the nikki haley surge. chris christie being on for the race, ron desantis being sort of incapable of maintaining his momentum, despite the fact that he went to every state in iowa, and our friend, vivek ramaswamy, who's done that twice. like, talking about retail politicians, that guys on the ground. we're not even talking about him this morning. tell me about all that through the lens of the nikki haley campaign. >> well, they could pull off with the present third or second place finish. i think that for vivek ramaswamy, he's invested himself holding six, seven, eight events a day and here in

iowa, eight years ago, i was covering ted cruz day-to-day. we went all 99 -- that's the type of ground organization that ron desantis has invested in and frankly, it worked for ted cruz. that's how he was able to beat donald trump by being persistent and arresting himself in getting to know folks here around the state. what i think it's important to nikki haley's point, to henry's point, like, there are two factors that i think could really play well for here in here. number one, the suburbs around this des moines area. eight years ago, marco rubio won. not only in polk county here, where des moines is, at the two neighboring counties. -- as well as dallas county here. could she boost her numbers even higher numbers in marco rubio was able to? in the. but if she's able to do that, she could chip into donald trump's lead. and the second factor here are those independents and democrats. they can go and change their prior prop party registration on caucus night and back in 2012 last time that republicans

had a caucus and democrats were not caucusing, about 11% of the folks who took part in the caucus were previously registered independents or democrats. could we see an influx of that? i've had conversations with multiple folks, not lonely here in des moines, a nurse in dubuque message me the other day that is a democrat, said she and friends are going to go change the registration to go and help boost nikki haley. they made a point, they don't like nikki haley, but if it means trying to help in the effort to take down donald trump, they are going to do that, regardless of what the weather conditions are. they feel like this is their opportunity, as i once, to try to stop them. >> von, i want to talk to you at the top of next hour, so i think you need about 55 minutes warm up. i will let you go right now. and thought. but come back at the top of 11. on a, stick with me. i want to go back to what you just said. when you think about nikki haley, who thinks, by the way, that trailing trump is much lower in new hampshire. 97 points, maybe 20 points, might be no points, who knows.

if something happens to donald trump and she becomes the nominee, and she's debating the biden, joe biden, you're saying that this is what the biden campaign worries about. tell me more about that. are you saying that it's possible that if, by some fluke, nikki haley becomes the nominee, joe biden is in trouble? >> i think so. i wouldn't say my dog is weighing in months right now, so sorry if he interrupts this. he's not a nikki haley fan at all. i think that he -- until nikki haley gets the nomination. i think that those two women that are going to go try and help take trump down by voting for nikki haley might not be doing what the biden campaign actually wants from them. i think that the disaster is images probably trump versus biden, but i think that's disastrous for a lot of reasons, maybe for everyone. i think that desantis is actually the weakest of all the top three or the weakest of the trump contenders, the threats to trump. he's a terrible candidate and

he is running on kind of an illusion. what he's done in florida is actually not that impressive, if you look at the way that he basically got his tremendous victory from suppressing votes. he isn't that popular, actually. his poll numbers in florida don't reflect what i think is true on the ground and i also think that he's just, you know, i feel kind of bad about this, but i compare him to an animatronic bear. he's not a great, like, person retail candidate and it don't think he's good in debates. i think nikki haley can be very normal seeming and i think she does appeal to independents. i do think that we can see the suburban women, that refused to turn out for trump, turnout for haley and it -- a contest because she seems very, very normal. she seems like a politician that we've seen before. i want to point out, however, that her actual policies are as restrictive and as retrograde as any desantis or trump policy. you know, she doesn't believe

that trans people actually showed exists. she is an incredibly, you know, pro forced birth, the way that i would put it. she believes life begins at conception, she would back whatever restrictions happened on abortion. she uses this language around abortion that she invokes the word compassion a lot. what if you look at her actual policies, i mean, she's just as restrictive as anyone. so, that's why i think she is such a threat, is that she sort of cause plays as a moderate, but she is not. the only thing she has -- with any moderate views is that she has neocon foreign policy, you know, positions. remember when those didn't seem that moderate either? like, they're common, but not necessarily moderate? so, i think she is a threat. i think that she can get out of iowa sometime, they see their two tickets out of iowa. you've heard that before. she makes it out of iowa, has a very strong second in new hampshire, perhaps even polling,

you know, an upset. then we go to south carolina. >> and that's where she -- >> she was very, very popular there. >> she was. nice to see you again, my old. front thanks for joining us this morning, i appreciate. it ana marie cox is a columnist on the new republic. and receives von -- will be joining us again at the top of next hour. all right, coming up, you need to know the advice from counsel the head of the national constitution center, when the official start of the presidential contests in just two days away. the republican front runner is facing 91 criminal counts, claiming broad presidential immunity and there are looming questions about his eligibility to run for president. the singular jeff rosen joins me next to make sense of it all and to talk about his important new book, the pursuit of happiness, about how the famous phrase came to define the founding of this country. the u.s. has carried out another strike against iran -backed houthi rebels. now president biden is facing resistance from some republicans and democrats were not seeking congressional approval for that military action. the houthis are promising a, quote, strong and effective

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plus, ask how to get up to $1000 prepaid card with qualifying internet. >> donald trump is facing a mountain of legal issues,. that's approximately 91 felony charges high. not to mention some civil cases and two very crucial constitutional matters. one of those constitutional questions played out in court this week, with donald trump listening in a courtroom, there's no video of this, a panel of three federal appeals court judges heard arguments from trump's lawyer claiming that the twice impeached ex president is immune from prosecution related to anything having to do with his role in plotting, we'll, whatever he did after the 2020 election. this immunity appeal stems from special counsel jack smith's january 6th case, which is currently paused pending the appeal. in court, trump's lawyer argued that a president is shielded from criminal charges for acts

committed while that president was in office. now, the judges were skeptical because this would mean a president could, say, take bribes to issue pardons or order a military assassination of a political rival and never face prosecution. here's an exchange between judge florence pan and donald trump's lawyer, john sour. >> could a president who ordered seal team to assassinate a political rival, who is not impeached, maybe be subject to crina prosecution? >> if you are impeached and convicted first. >> so your answer is no. >> my answer isalified yes. >> >> i've asked u.s. series of hypotheticals about criminal actions that could be taken by a president and could be considered official acts, and have asked you, would such a president be subject to criminal prosecution if he's not impeached or convicted? your answer is --

your answer is no. >> i believe i said qualified yes if he's impeach or convicted first. >> okay, so he's not impeached or convicted, let's put that aside. could sell pardons, could sell military secrets, could order seal team six to assassinate a political rival. >> sale of military secret strikes me as not something -- >> so, the assassination of rivals is apparently covered under presidential immunity. sour, by the way, who was the solicitor general of missouri, argued that because the senate did not vote to impeach donald trump after january 6th, he is in the clear. now, if these arguments were to stand, any president could commit offices while in office and never see accountability, so long as they avoid impeachment, and conviction in congress, by, for instance, resigning. so, if the judges ruled that trump has presidential immunity in this case, it could mean

that he has carte blanche to do whatever he pleases, should he find of self in the white house for a second term. now, trump's threats don't exist in the abstract. they are literal. speaking to reporters after the hearing on tuesday, he claimed, without evidence, that he was being prosecuted because of polls showing him beating president biden in the 2024 election. he warned that if the charges hurt his candidacy, there would be, quote, bedlam, and quote, in the country. on the other side of the break, i'll be joined by the president and ceo of the national constitution center, jeff rosen, the better understand the two constitutional matters playing out before us. presidential immunity and the 14th amendment. jeff also has a brand new book coming out. it's a must read. we will talk about that when we come back. about that when w come back. y box showed up? oh, i saw it. my tail goes bonkers for treats at great prices. sorry about the vase. shop and get a $30 egift card through january 14th, at chewy.

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prosecution for things he did while he was president? and it's donald trump qualified to run for office under section three of the 14th amendment? joining me now is a true expert on the united states constitution, jeff rosen, president and ceo of the national constitution center. law professor at the george washington university school of law and author of the important new book, which comes out on february 13th, the pursuit of happiness, how classical rioters on virtue inspired the lives of the founders and defined america. welcome, by the way, jeff. and congratulations on the new book. it is great to have you here. >> so great to see you, ali, thanks so much. >> i would love to just be a fly on the wall around you in these last few weeks, as these constitutional arguments are made. let's start with the one that is currently before the third circuit court in d.c., but also sitting in pending before the supreme court about the 14th amendment, section three, that argues that having taken an oath, donald trump then participated in an insurrection and as such, he's disqualified

from running for any office again. this, where is this argument right now and what do you think is going to happen with it? >> well, you had a great discussion about it last week with our friend, joe -- ally, as the judge articulated, there is this dramatic clash between the -- original understanding of the 14th amendment, which many conservative scholars argue is self executing, and that means that people who take an oath and then engage in insurrection or disqualified without action from congress. then all these frontal considerations that if the court -- could there be chaos if difference dates reach different conclusions? is it up to states and not congress to decide? and so forth. no easy way for the supreme court to avoid deciding one way or the other. even they will say that he is disqualified across the board and therefore, cannot be eligible to be president of the united states, where they made hold that the cause is not enforceable, coming up with

some kind of moderate compromise here just doesn't seem possible. >> you've always talked about the degree to which the supreme court generally speaking, it's not supposed to be listening to the noise outside or the political commentary. but over time, does sort of start to match up with public opinion. in this instance, saying that donald trump is not qualified, based on section, the 14th amendment section three, that would have a political ramifications. does that come into the supreme court justice is thinking of what they're supposed to do? >> there is, in fact, a doctrine called the political question doctrine and donald trump's lawyers have invoked it. basically, it says that when a decision of the courts might create chaos, when it might be embarrassing, when it might call the legitimacy of courts into question, then judges should stay out of it and basically let political branches decide. and trump lawyers here are saying, let congress decide when it counts the electoral vote. don't have judges involved in

any way. the problem is, that's the opposite of the argument the supreme court adopted and push bush me or. it would certainly be odd if they adopted it here and not there, and also just clashes with the testimony -- understanding of the constitution, as -- suggests. so, that's not an easy out ramp here. >> let me ask you about the immunity question. i want to play for our viewers sound of john sour in court,. now, sour, it's important to note, was a solicitor general. he's very learned, he's a rhodes scholar. he knows a lot about the constitution, but in this following statement that he made to the judges, he takes on two distinct arguments, which i want to discuss with you on the other side. want to discuss with you on th if a president has look over his shoulder or her ld every time he or she has to make a controversial decision and worry after i leavefice, am i going to jail for this? when my political opponents take power, that inevitably dampens the ability of the president. >> two very interesting points here. one is, does a president always have to doubt what he does? well saying that donald trump

is not immune from prosecution mean that every president going forward has doubts about the legality of what they're doing, and that doesn't take some decision together frightened of the outcome? part two of his sentence was, am i going to jail for this when my political opponents take power? so, there is an implication in that sentence that, this isn't just a legal discussion. there might be political forces at play. i would like or thought. two sentences, two very different thoughts. >> so significant. so, all this is coming from a case called nixon versus fitzgerald in 1982, where the supreme court said that when a president commits civil actions that turnout possibly to be legal, like firing a whistleblower, he should be immune because he shouldn't have to be second guessing himself, is illegal to fire this guy or not? when the law isn't clear in civil cases, there should be qualified immunity. that is totally different, as judge panels suggesting, in her questions here from ordering the assassination of a political rival or selling

state secrets. here, john sour is trying to say, well, the president should be second guessing himself for official acts. but no one doubts that assassinating a rival or, you know, selling secrets is illegal and therefore, sours attempt to extend this credential doctrine of qualified immunity means all criminal acts or president might commit is just not going to fly. the d.c. circuits not going to buy, the supreme court is not going to buy it either. >> in your new book, jeff, it's coming out on the 13th, you profiled, friday the 13th, you provide six of the most influential founders. benjamin franklin, north washington, john adams, thomas jefferson, james madison, and alexander hamilton. and you are illustrating pursuing happiness, what that meant in their lives. it's an interesting way to look at things. you wrote so many books that you can now take this on. what did it look like than, and what does it look like now? given the context of the things that we're talking about now, the threats to democracy that we're seeing more and more frequently.

>> ali, it was so remarkable for me to see the degree to which for the founders happiness meant not feeling good, but being good. not the pursuit of pleasure, but the pursuit of virtue. and they thought that personal self government was necessary for political self government, that the republic would fall if our leaders were not virtuous and if we, the people, were not virtuous. i found this amazing sentence from thomas jefferson predicting the rise of donald trump and jefferson, when he receives the constitution, is worried that a distant president might lose an election by a few votes, falsely claiming the election would've been stolen, and mobilize his supporters, refused to leave office. jefferson's words, he will pretend to -- downplay full possession of the reign of government. so, as jefferson and the other frontiers are frayed of demagogues we're going to put their own self-interest above that of the people, the solution for them is virtue. we need presidential candidates who will be moderate, temperate, restrained, put the interests of the country above their selfish greed and ambition, and

this is key, we need citizens who will vote for leaders who will be virtuous and who will master our own partisan passions and favor the public good. i explore all this in the book. i'm so excited to share it with you, ali, and can't wait to hear what you think. >> i would love that and i think it's interesting, when you bring up the term moderate, you're not seeing political moderate. you're not seeing in the middle of the political spectrum. you're seeing moderate in the way which they conduct themselves, the way in which they deal with the issues of the nation. unimportant book, as are all the books you've ever written, and i would recommend to folks that there is an ever better time to get familiar with the compass of jeffrey rosen. jeffrey rosen is a president and ceo of the national constitution center. author of the pursuit of happiness, how classical rioters on virtue inspired the lives of the founders and defined america. still to come, the u.s. has launched another round of strikes against houthi rebels in yemen. and respond to continued attacks on commercial vessels in the red sea. now, the houthis are vowing retaliation. the houthis are vowin retaliation. retaliation. woman: who's that, who is that? cole: this is my puppy! woman: cancer.

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today's meeting of the velshi banned book club. today is one of those special meetings where the author is just as remarkable as the writing. the author, jasminrd a historic winner of two national book awards for fiction. ward is the first woman and first black person to earn that award twice. we are featuring one of those winners today, salvage the bones. set in the 12 days leading up to and right after hurricane katrina, makes landfall, salvage the bones is an intimate look at family, love, poverty, and survival. don't miss it, we will be right back. val. don't miss it, we will be righ back back attacks too. that's why my go to is nurtec odt. it's the only migraine medication that can treat and prevent my attacks all in one. don't take if allergic to nurtec. allergic reactions can occur even days after using. most common side effects were nausea, indigestion and stomach pain. now i'm in control. with nurtec odt i can treat

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♪ control is everything to me ♪ learn how abbvie could help you save. >> overnight, the united states carried out further targeted attacks on the iranian-backed houthi rebels in yemen. on thursday, the u.s. and the united kingdom targeted 16 different sites in the houthi controlled western part of yemen. the latest strike was a smaller,

unilateral strict by the united states on unrelated target in yemen. that's according to u.s. defense officials. the biden administration maintains that these are defensive strikes. let's talk about this a little bit. since november, the houthis have launched over two dozen attacks on ships in the red sea, which is basically the middle of your screen right now. it's a critical passageway for commercial shipping worldwide. now, roughly 17,000 ships carrying one trillion dollars worth of goods go through the suez canal. you can see that labeled at the top left of your screen there in blue below gaza. in response to the houthis attacks in recent weeks, at least six of the ten biggest shipping companies in the world have already rerouted their ships away from the suez canal, which adds time, distance, and more expense to their trips. the houthis say their attacks are in opposition to israel's attacks on gaza and they are demanding a cease-fire. reminder that the houthis, like hezbollah and lebanon, and

hamas, and gaza, are all backed in one way or another by iran. they say they've only targeted shifts connected to israel and that's a claim that the biden administration disputes. the houthis say the initial strikes by the u.s. and the united kingdom killed at least five militants and injured six others, and they have now vowed retaliation. after last night's airstrikes, a houthi spokesperson told al jazeera, quote, this new strike will have a firm, strong, and effective response, and quote. president biden, saying in a statement, quote, these targeted strikes are a clear message that the united states and our partners will not tolerate attacks on our personnel or allow hostile actors to imperil freedom of navigation in one of the world's most critical commercial routes. i will not hesitate to direct further measures to protect our people and the free flow of international commerce as necessary. and quote. joining me now, -- senior diplomatic correspondent for -- good to see you again. thank you for joining us. first of all, how concerned are

you as an observer of this that this escalation could broaden this conflict in the middle east that's currently between israel and hamas? >> [silence] >> i think you might be muted because i see you talking, but i don't hear your voice. let's try that again with, there we go. we got you? >> -- >> there we go, got you now. >> [inaudible] >> well, it worked for a second. we are going to -- okay, there we go. it's a tape show, so it's fine. go ahead, -- >> [inaudible] from the biden administration for avoiding escalation. and what that means is for iran and the hamas linked a network of [inaudible] retaliation against western [inaudible]

>> with the attacks, as we've seen them right now, the houthis maintain that their attacks are on commercial ships, but the bottom line is this route that the ships take goes right by yemen and a bunch of shipping companies are just saying, we are not interested, we're not going that way right now. what's the goal here? what's the u.s. and the uk school in these attacks? are they just trying to, they just want to get the ships moving again? >> their hope is that they can deter -- take away the houthi capacity to really run these ships out of -- right? we don't know as -- such limited u.s. intelligence -- capabilities is whether the strikes were effective in -- the houthis. you've seen already -- how many more strikes will be actually need to make a difference? the u.s.'s goal is, we can tell shipping companies, tell ensures, you can go back to

normal. but that has to be a result of changes on the ground because right now, they haven't been able to. >> let me ask you about the houthis, themselves. a lot of people who follow the middle east very closely may have missed this episode. they have moved from being sort of obscure on the scene to being central. they control the capital city in their part of yemen. what is the issue? what's the context of today's houthis versus the houthis of 2015? >> sure, the houthis, over ten years of war against the u.s.-backed coalition of yemeni forces, saudi arabia, -- have only become stronger and stronger, and tightened their grip. and that's really why washington is now applying what's -- [inaudible] the policy in 2015, 20 [inaudible]

trained strength in the houthis are now in the biden white house, dealing with the consequences of their actions. the question for a lot of resource -- experts but also foreign governments with the u.s. really needs -- here is, well, we didn't see you do anything with this in the first place and in fact, the people here fighting have only become stronger. so, how can we trust your [inaudible] >> akbar, good to see you again. as always, thank you for joining us. akbar ahmed it's a senior diplomatic correspondent at the huffington post. i will continue to discuss the perilous situation in the gion withmocratic representative primala jayapal in the next hour. she's criticize u.s.-l strikes on yemen, calling them, quote, an unacceptable violation of the constitution. violioatn of the constitution. violioatn of the constitution. to mop? try the swiffer powermop. ♪♪ an all-in-one cleaning tool, with a 360-degree swivel head that goes places a regular mop just can't. ♪♪ mop smarter with the swiffer powermop. about two years ago, i realized that jade was overweight. i wish i would have introduced the fresh food a lot sooner.

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this week's south african prison -- case against israel to the international court of justice. south africa formally accuse israel of committing genocide against the people of gaza. israel insists that its war in gaza is a legitimate defense of its people. now, you might be wondering what south africa has to do with the war between israel and hamas, and how exactly the international court of justice actually works. the icj, not to be confused with the icc, the international criminal court, was established in 1945 to settle disputes between u.n. member states. it's widely known as the world's court, situated in the hague in the netherlands. the icj, icj, is one of six

principal organs of the united nations, on the same footing as the general assembly and the security council. the court is composed of 15 judges. any u.n. member state can bring a case against any other member state, whether they are directly involved in the conflict in question or not. south africa wants the courts adjudication on the 1948 yuan genocide convention. south africa, israel, an state of palestine are three of the 152 signatories of that convention. it's an international treaty that codify'd, for the first time, the crime of genocide. it defines genocide as any of the five things listed on the screen committed with an intent to destroy, in whole, or in part, a national ethnic,, racial, or religious group. these five acts include telling members of the group, killing them, causing them serious bodily or mental harm, imposing living conditions intended to destroy the group, preventing

births, and forcibly transferring children out of the group. during proceedings this week, south africa asked the court to order israel to halt its military activity in gaza, pending proper investigation and adjudication of the charges. the war has resulted in the deaths of more than 23,700 palestinians. as reported by the palestinian ministry of health. israel faces the court yesterday to defend itself. it argued that it was hamas militants who are guilty of genocide, after the october 7th attack that killed more than 1200 israelis. and the kidnapping of 250 hostages, as the israeli prime minister's office reported. israeli legal advisers argued that south africa's request for an immediate halt in fighting in gaza would block israel from its right to defend itself. joining me now is ana hathaway, professor of international law at the yale law school and the executive editor of just security. thank you for being with us, i appreciate your time here. this defense, i want to start

from zero here. i'm going to assume that we don't know generally, speaking, what this court does. israel's defense, at the moment, is that it is defending itself. south africa's argument is that, whether or not a country is defending itself, the rules of the genocide convention continue to apply. >> that's exactly right. so, yesterday, we heard israel say, look, we're just defending ourselves. we were attacked on october 7th, it was a horrific attack by hamas that really, it killed civilians, it was an extraordinary atrocities and, this response is necessary to defend the state of israel. now, we heard the day before from south africa was, yes, israel has a right to defend itself but even when it's defending itself, it has to observe the rules of the genocide convention. and that the way in which israel is fighting this war is causing deaths to civilians and as well as starvation, and other kinds of conditions within gaza that make it very

difficult for anyone to survive, and that that constitutes a violation of the genocide convention. >> one of the things that you were quoted as saying, from an interview on pbs on thursday, was that the united states is also a signatory of the genocide convention. id the u.s., as a member of the genocide convention itself, its own legal obligations will kick in and it is prohibited from aiding and assisting in genocide. t it's also actually positively obligated to act to ent genocide, and so, this is going to make continuing military support certainly for israel maybe even for foreign assistance of various kinds israel quite difficult. what's the it? what's the thing that would happen that would cause anybody to do anything differently, as it relates to this war, that is happening today? >> well, so it's in the international court of justice was does what south africa is asking and decide that there is a possible case, that there is a violation that genocide convention happening in israel, an issue of provisional

measures, which is what south africa is asking, then that puts the united states in a difficult position because the united states is also a party to the genocide convention and as a party to the genocide convention, it has an obligation not to aid and assist violations of the genocide convention. so, providing arms, various kinds of foreign assistance to israel. including intelligence to israel in its fight in gaza. it also has an obligation to affirmatively act to prevent genocide. this has actually been why the united states government, in the past, has been slow to call even the rwandan genocide of genocide, because as soon as we know that there is a genocide happening, that creates all kinds of legal obligations on the united states government to act to prevent that. so, this is not a small thing. this is not just a question of whether the international court of justice is going to issue orders to israel, to conduct its war in a different kind of way, to allow more aid and access into gaza.

those are all things that it might order. but even if israel were to say, ignore that, and say, you know, we don't care what the international court of justice says and, you know, we are going to continue waging this were in the way that we have, it's still going to have a significant impact on israel, because it's going to have the impact on those who support israel. and their ability to continue to support this war effort. >> and oona, i just want to ask you. unlike the war crimes we talk about, that the criminal court, things are little different here. the thing that will happen, the examination of the actual genocide accusations happens over time. what south africa is asking for immediately is, as you say, some kind of order. there's some kind of the, the terminology for what they can say that, while we're investigating, remember, these are your olivier shuns and as such, israel, this is what you need to do. >> yeah, so this is going to be a multi stage case and we are just at the very beginning of what probably is going to be years of litigation in the international court of justice,

and if this initial stage, what south africa is asking is they are saying, look, if we don't prevent this ongoing war or we don't constrain this ongoing war, that by the time the international court of justice finally gets around to addressing the merits of this claim of genocide, it's going to be too late. and so, what they are asking for in this initial hearing is, all you have to do is decide that there's, there might be a violation of the genocide convention, that there's plausible claims here that might fit within the genocide convention, and then if you find that that's the case, we want you to issue orders that would preserve the rights of everyone involved. so that would potentially include whether asking for is a halt to the war. i don't think they're going to get that. but what they might get's orders to wage the war in a more cautious way, so that they're not killing quite some of the civilians, greater access for aid, preservation of evidence. so, these are the initial orders that south africa is

asking for. if they get that. then there is going to be, you know, israel have to make a decision as to whether it will comply with those orders. and then the case will continue. there will be hearings initially in jurisdiction, whether this case actually belongs in the international court of justice before they finally get to the merits. so, it's going to be quite a long while. but this initial stage is really important because its initial decision as to whether, is there anything here? is this potentially actually a violation of the genocide convention? and are there obligations of israel, and therefore, on everybody else who supporting israel, fact to prevent ongoing acts of genocide, incitement to genocide, and other kinds of violations of the genocide convention? >> oona, it's always great to talk to you. i'm always smarter for. >> -- hathaway oona is a professor of law at yale law school. coming, up we will touch down in iowa where -- promising revenge against his enemies if he returns to power is poised to win the opening contests of the republican

primary in historic by a historic margin. plus, i will talk to the only women and only black person to ever win e prestigious national book award for fiction, two times, jasmine ward joins the velshi banned book club today. and an in-depth look at why the red sea is so crucial and it's not just the trillion dollars worth of goods that passed through it every year. another hour of velshi begins right now. good morning. saturday, january the 13th, i'm ali velshi. we're just two days away from the iowa republican caucus. is the first in the nation nominating contests kicks off the 2024 election season into high gear. caucuses, as you may know, originates from old school political traditions that demand participants physically attend a meeting in order to participate. caucus goers have to sign in. they reported their respective precincts on monday night. then, at seven pm local time, representatives from each candidate will give brief