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final stretch in iowa. we're about to find out if donald trump is still what republicans want, and if not, well, too. it is a battle for number two between nikki haley and ron desantis. also at this hour, the life and legacy of dr. martin luther king junior at a time of deep division in this country. his son and daughter in law on the state of social justice in america. and speaking of what divides us, how did we get here? oscar nominated director eva duvernay is here to talk about her new film, origins. i am ayman mohyeldin. ♪ ♪ ♪

it is eight pm in new york, seven pm and iowa, where in just 24 hours, republican voters will have their first say in the 2024 race for the white house. republican presidential hopefuls, well, they spent the day today on the trail, sub-zero temperatures, making a final pitch to caucus goers. however, according to the new nbc news in des moines registry poll, the final poll between -- tomorrow's contest, it might not actually matter. donald trump, the twice impeached ex president, who is currently facing 91 criminal charges, still maintains a commanding lead over his rivals. the survey finds that trump has the backing of the most enthusiastic and committed likely caucus goers, which could mean everything given the brutal weather across iowa, the coldest that state has seen in decades. and with that, in trump's victory appearing to be a foregone conclusion, who places

second is the story to watch for. now if this polling is right, that person will be trump's former u.n. ambassador nikki haley. -- spoke exclusively with nbc news about her biggest competition tomorrow, ron desantis, the governor of florida. >> i mean, he's only played in iowa. he's invisible in new hampshire, he's invisible in south carolina, his fourth and fifth place in both of those. >> now, before we get going tonight, i want to let you know what iowa native mike draper had to say about this year's caucus is telling the guardian, quote, i've always had a good finger on the pulse, and it's normally a circus, but this year is just a sad circus. people are still going through the motions, but there's no real drama to it. with us now, and be seen news correspondent vaughn hillyard. he's an -- von, basically give us a fact check on that. no drama to it, as we see playing out. a sad circus. is that sentiment coming through during the conversations you are having

with folks on the ground from iowa caucus goers? >> the only folks, ayman, that i feel don't view this lack of drama as a bad thing are trump's supporters here. they're saying, number one, that they are undoubtedly gonna show up to caucus, but for the rest of this field, and frankly for myself in those that are covering this race on the ground, there is just this kind of oddity to covering second place, if you will. as you said, if this data holds up here, you're talking about nikki haley and ron desantis vying for somewhere in the teens for the second position to make the case that they are the trump alternative. because, in the weeks ahead, that's what this conversation is gonna be about. donald trump first, and alternative. the trump team continues to assert that they would be happy with a win, just anyone, but also noting that the greatest percentage that a republican has ever won iowa caucus is 20

percentage points. if they could break that, that would be a big win. frankly, when you're looking at our recent polling here, 28% lead here at this point. it just calls in the question whether the republican electorate around the country already knows who their nominee is. and it's new hampshire, -- any of these states gonna change the dynamic of it. earlier this morning, that side of trump's alley here, the lone rally of the weekend, i was talking with this gentleman, eric gray, who was standing out there in negative 41-degree wind chill, and just take a listen to a part of our conversation. i'm in the cold. >> why for donald trump? >> why not. let's get this country back. -- four-dollar diesel, hundred dollars for groceries at the door. >> folks here are asking if iowans are gonna show up on caucus night. >> absolutely. >> what are the stakes? >> yet this country backward leads this country. >> from that nbc news des

moines register poll, ayman, the folks who said that they intend to caucus on monday night for donald trump, 49% of them said they were extremely enthusiastic about supporting him. compare that to those who said nikki haley -- nikki haley as their choice on caucus night. so they're in extremely enthusiastic about supporting her. and evidence at his rally here today was just another piece of evidence that donald trump has built a movement that is gonna be hard to knock off here in the weeks ahead from either desantis or nikki haley. >> yeah. it has a little bit more of a coronation field than an actual democratic process, at this point, at least, certainly, and iowa. nbc's vaughn hillyard, it's great to see you, my friend. thank you so much. with me, as democratic leader jennifer conference. she's -- thank you so much for joining us. i appreciate your time tonight. you've been through many iowa caucuses. does this year feel different to you? is the trump when simply

inevitable? and what does that say about the state of the republican party? >> i think it says that the state of the republican party is all in for donald trump. and there's no lesson to be learned from what happened in 2020. they're all in on donald trump, and really this battle for second place that we heard about is fun for us and those of us who are following this, pundits, journalists, but at the end of the day, these candidates are, in many ways, interchangeable when it comes to extremism, when it comes to what they're promising, and they're really just competing to see who can be the most extreme and appealed to the fairest of the fire right base in iowa. that's not a winning strategy going forward. but i guess it's a winning strategy for the iowa caucuses this year. >> let me ask you about the democratic party, if i, can rather than practicing tomorrow night, democrats are voted by mail with the results to be announced in march after yielding -- first in the nation status. just how is the iowa democratic

party dealing with this sentiment? do you see it as a demotion, as some have described it? how do you feel about it? >> well, you know, we've been tracking this for a long time. i was first in the caucus in 1988 when i was a genie gel or get far -- more caucusing tomorrow night. we're caucusing monday night. we're gathering, we're doing pretty business, and we are, of course, doing the presidential preference cards. i think this year already was going to be not as competitive, not as much attention, because president biden is the obvious nominee, and, so already, this year's caucuses were gonna be a little quieter. of course, we would love to have had it be -- we really feel we've put together a program that allows for the most accessibility, for the most iowans. we want everyone who's a democrat to come out and caucus tomorrow night, but if you can't because of whether or something else, we still want you to participate. and that's what those presidential preference cards are for. >> let me ask you, more broadly speaking, about the d.c. sea.

it's an ambitious spending plan targeting state legislative races, which a lot of critics have said, for a long time, have been written off, or not been as competitive by the tlc. i suspect you want to make that different this time around given what's happened over the last two election cycles. how important are these down ballot contests to the national democratic party, and being able to advance a broader democratic agenda in this country? >> yeah. over the past few cycles and legislative sessions -- devastating affects of state legislative work or the illiberal day in effect the pending who's in charge. i live so very closely managed by the rules and the laws that legislators set forward, and so it's critically important that in 2024, what were calling the year of the states, that we really put an emphasis on this. this is the most important election cycle in state legislative history because of everything that's on the line, particularly with regard to

reproductive freedom and either -- we have an aggressive strategy to go after states. we're gonna -- we had a great 2022, we had a great 2023, we're gonna keep going with special elections. we're gonna continue to point out extremism in the legislative session. we're gonna. have a great convention. and we're gonna have big victories this fall. it's ambitious, but it couldn't be more important when you look at what's at stake across the country and in state capitals. >> to your point, state legislators are either saying save our democracy or undermining it depending what state you're in. so you're absolutely right, it's gonna be a critical -- jennifer konferst, thank you so much for your time in your insights this evening. i appreciate it. let's break this down with our panel. -- woke af daily podcast, and host of the democracy-ish and the new abnormal -- donna edwards, who's an msnbc political analyst. ladies, it's great to have you both with us. danielle, i'll start with you. i'm gonna go back to this poll.

-- trump voters are far more -- a, what do you make of that enthusiasm between trump supporters and the rest of the field? and, does any of this matter? >> i mean, have you watched the debates? because there wasn't much to look at with the other candidates, right? so i understand why people are more enthusiastic for donald trump. i just think that in this day of a day and age, a man who has four indictments and 91 charges against him, it's crazy to think that the republicans couldn't have somebody that they could put up that could beat donald trump. but again, if these candidates are choosing not to go after donald trump when asked directly about him, what else are people supposed to do? so i don't think that the polls really matter. i think he's gonna come out on top tomorrow. -- >> important point about these

candidates and their inability to go after donald trump. there's a very interesting result from that poll that i was just referencing that shows 43% of nikki haley voters or supporters say they will back joe biden if donald trump becomes the nominee. now, immediately, not a politician, you have a lot more experience than i do. but if i had that kind of data in my hand early on, i would be out there telling my voters, telling islands, telling republicans, if you guys elect donald trump as the nominee for the republican party, we are gonna lose, because more people are gonna support joe biden. what does that tell you about the kind of voters the former u.s. ambassador tracks and the mindset that she's not even really emphasizing are highlighting to the republican party? >> well -- chris christie is no longer in the fight, spent the entirety of this last year leaving

donald trump alone. even when donald trump gave them openings, they didn't take advantage of that. and the result, of course, is the charge that donald trump makes against nikki haley as being weak actually lands with quite a ban. because she has been weak. she's been afraid to attack those footers. and it's so ridiculous, because as you can see in those numbers, it's not as though she's attracting donald trump-based republican voters. and so, she had every opportunity, and she has, you know, lost. i look at those poll numbers, and i say, you know what? even if you had everything from ron desantis to vivek ramaswamy to nikki haley, they still don't beat donald trump. he's going to be the nominee. >> i was gonna say, and if she thinks avoiding donald trump is this might stand edgy, tonight, we're seeing that is not the

case. a short while ago, donald trump posted on his truth social site a clip of nikki haley basically saying he's -- in typical fashion, donald trump goes after anybody who thinks is not loyal or is crossing him. danielle, you heard that sound i played from nikki haley a few moments ago labeling ron desantis as basically invisible. more or less irrelevant. are these two candidates wasting time -- real competition? should they have -- congresswomen was talking about, should the republican party have coalesced around a candidate to challenge donald trump? they absolutely should have. look, if you are going to say that you are going to be the commander-in-chief, you're going to be the leader of this nation and the leader of the quote unquote free world, then you have to go after who is on top, right. i don't understand how these people say that they want to be

president of the united states, and yet they seem to be afraid of donald trump, and afraid of his base. and so when they are going and sparring against each other, that doesn't matter, and i don't think that it matters to either of the constituents that are backing either of them. what matters is they had an opportunity to convince the trump voter that you know, what this man does not have your back, he does not care about you, and the only reason why he is running for president is to stay out of jail. not to make your lives better. they could have hammered that point in from the beginning, and they chose not to, because they are weak, and they are scared of him. >> is there anything, congresswoman, that you are looking out for tomorrow? >> i mean even, put aside that ordinary americans may not be paying that much attention tomorrow, because it is a foregone conclusion. what do you think we and others who are following this closely should be looking at, as this race gets underway in earnest? >> well i think tomorrow, first of all, i think that enthusiasm number is really important. look, i've run elections --

in rains -- and when your voters are enthusiastic and they show up, that it makes all of the difference. it is almost like adding an x factor to your campaign. also, i saw the difference between haley and desantis, he's had more of an organization on the ground in iowa. and so, i want to look and see whether he, and with the support of governor reynolds, is able to really turn that on to make up that difference, which is really just shy of the margin of error. and so, i think that desantis actually does have an opportunity to eclipse nikki haley. but you know what, it's not going to make any difference, because donald trump is going to come out of there and sale right over into new hampshire. >> danielle, same question to you, before we squeeze in a quick break. what, if anything, should we be looking for for tomorrow? >> i mean, i think that we need to see who is going to come in at number two, and whether or

not these are going to be one of donald trump's choices for vice president. we still don't know who that is going to be. he says that no one in this field could measure up to be vice president, so i think it will be interesting to see who comes out second. and frankly, what it looks like in the coming weeks for folks to start dropping out, and whether or not ron desantis is going to hang on. >> all right danielle moody, donna edwards, thank you to the both of you for joining tonight, greatly appreciated as always. coming up, president biden, at the start of his presidency versus now, when it comes to american diplomacy. diplomacy liberty mutual customized my car insurance and i saved hundreds. that's great. i know, i've bee telling everyone. baby: liberty. oh! baby: liberty. how many people did you tell? only pay for what you need. jingle: ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ baby: ♪ liberty. ♪ as the world keeps moving, help prevent covid-19 from breaking your momentum. you may have already been vaccinated against the flu,

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why don't we just switch to xfinity like everyone else? then you would know what year it was. we're also stepping up our i know what year it is. diplomacy to end the war in yemen. a war which has created humanitarian and strategic catastrophes. this war has to end. and to underscore our commitment, we are ending all american support for offensive operations in the war in yemen, including relevant arm sales. >> that was president joe biden in 2021, declaring that diplomacy back. but hisspeech rings hollow three years later, after the united states and the uk launched military airstrikes against the houthis in yemen this week. this followed mounting attacks by the military group against commercial ships it says are linked to israel, or bound for israeli ports, in what they call retaliation for their military campaign in gaza.

the u.s. strikes has led to a rare bipartisan pushback in congress, with some lawmakers claiming that biden violated the constitution, by not seeking congressional approval first, at a time when fears are escalating over more wars in the middle east. biden has defended the strikes, adding he would not hesitate to take further measures. joining me now is alexandra -- associate policy researcher at the rand corporation. alexandra, it's great to have you with us on the program. i want to start with a piece that you wrote in foreign af in which you write that instead of retaliatory rikes against the houthis in yemen, the u.s. should favor a diplomatic approach, and certainly since joe biden had said diplomacy is back, what would that look like in the current climate? >> so, the biden administration has engaged in some diplomatic measures, including pulling to gather a maritime operation with allies and partners to try to protect slips in the red

sea. and they have also gone to the u.n. security council and got a resolution condemning with the houthis are doing. the problem is i think these military strikes aren't likely to do what they are intended to do. they are not likely to, unfortunately, to deter the houthis, who have framed these attacks in terms of their support for gaza, their support for the people of palestine. and instead, i think they might even give the houthis some legitimacy at home in yemen, and across the middle east region, where there is some support for these actions. >> is there a scenario in which the u.s. could have engaged in the houthis directly about the houthis conduct, and what they are doing in the red sea to try to get them to change course? >> there is some reporting that the u.s. has tried to engage the houthis. the houthis have also been engaged for the past few years in the u.n. negotiated process

to try to end the war that's going on in yemen. and they have worked with interlocutors, including oman, for example, the government of oman, who plays a role in these negotiations. and so, there are ways that the u.s. and its partners and allies could potentially approach the houthis, if not directly, then by other governments in the region, by the u.n. in other ways. >> there was a report by politico that suggested president biden not ordering a strike for mo than a week after he directed his team to drop military options. it was in line with his desire to exhaust diplomatic options. could there have been more diplomacy before the u.s. launch these strikes, do you think? >> i think there could have been more diplomacy. but ultimately, it will be about ending the conflict in yemen, and also finding a sustainable solution to the conflict in gaza.

frankly again, the houthis have linked their attacks to that conflict, and to getting humanitarian aid into gaza. and so, i don't think that ending that war would necessarily completely stop the houthi attacks, this is a more intractable, intractable problem then that if, that's how they have framed these strikes. >> obviously for those who may not be following, after the u.s. carried out the strikes, the leaders of the houthis have come out and said that there would be revenge, there would be retaliation against the u.s. and the uk for this. i am curious to get your thoughts on how realistic that is. do you, based on what you have studied and what you have learned about the houthis, and the fact that they have a two decade long history now, or a track record now of this kind of rhetoric, followed up by action, do you believe they are words to be true? >> yes, i think it's likely that they will respond.

u.s. officials have talked about how these military strikes by the u.s. and the uk were designed to degrade the houthis military capabilities, specifically to keep them from attacking ships in the red sea. and so, i think it's possible that the pace of drone and missile strikes will slow down. but ultimately, the houthis have also used low tech low-cost methods, things like drone attacks and small boats that are -- explosive devices, or that they use to board and hijack ships. and so, that is really hard to, it's really difficult to prevent those kinds of low tech, low-cost attacks from happening. and that is going to be a more intractable problem, i think. >> as we hit the 100-day mark of the israel hamas war, there obviously was concern that it was going to spill out across the region. do you share the sentiment that it is already metastasizing across the region, even if it is at a low intensity volume,

or level, seeing what has happened in lebanon, attacks in iraq against u.s. forces, and the u.s. strike against iraqi militias there, the attacks in the red sea, and the u.s. now retaliating inside of yemen? have we crossed the threshold of this being no longer just the israel gaza war, but now a regional war? >> yeah, i think that is the concern that escalation, not just in gaza itself, but across the region could draw more actors into this conflict, could ultimately escalate the conflict. and i think we are in a really worrying moment right, now where there are multiple trajectory that are possible. it's possible that the conflict won't escalate. but as we are also seeing in yemen, it is also possible that actors that are allied and working with iran it, and interacting with the u.s. and, others could lead to escalation, and things could ultimately get out of control, in a way that nobody really wants. so so far, there has been some

restraint by iran, by the u.s.. but i think there is concern that this could ultimately escalate and become a broader conflict in the region. >> all right, alexandra starke, thank you so much for your time, i greatly appreciate your insights and analysis on this situation, as it develops. we will be in touch with you going forward, much appreciated. >> next, martin luther king the third and andrea waterskiing, on the legacy of dr. king, and the state of social justice in america today. america today.

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happens to coincide with the first in the nation caucuses in iowa. yes, republicans are going to choose their party's nominee on the day devoted to reflecting on dr. martin luther king's legacy. now let's be frank here for a moment, the character of the man they are set to pick, donald trump, is light years from that of dr. king. -- trump thinks he has enemies, while king was arrested 29 times, stabbed at a book signing, hit with a record two, and ultimately assassinated. but the pastor's plans for his adversaries never once included retribution, his secret weapon was love, not hate. joining me now, martin luther king the third, eldest son of dr. martin luther king junior, and cofounder and chairman of the -- institute, the drum major studio in -- president of the institute. it's great to have both of you with us on this important night. martin, if i can with you, what do you believe dr. king would

have thought of the state of the republican party, especially given the fact that the gop is set to nominate donald trump for a second term? >> well, what i would say, and thank you for the opportunity to share. my dad wanted to bring america together, and bring out the best of who we are, not the worst. we have chosen to disregard civility, particularly in the political space. and so, we -- how do we re-engage, and disagree without being disagreeable? that's what he did throughout his life, that's what my mother did throughout her life. that's what we hope we are doing, bringing at least the opportunity to dialogue without being disruptive, and promoting hatred. we are promoting bridge building and love. >> and speaking of bridge building and love, andrea, what would you see as another trump presidency meaning for minority communities in america? >> well i think it's been quite

evident over the last few years, where we've seen more and more oppression being legislated. we have a 15-year-old daughter, the only grandchild of martin and coretta king. and in her lifetime, she has progressively lost rights. and that really has not happened since the end of reconstruction, and the beginning of the black coats. so i think that we would continue to see more and more regression as it relates to the quest, and the long march towards freedom, and the creation of the beloved community. >> that is such an important point about the regression that we are seeing, martin. and i just wanted to get your thoughts on that. one of the core principles that dr. king stood for, they are under attack in this country. you've got a far-right conservative movement, a group that has announced a campaign to try to discredit landmark legislation that dr. king fought for, specifically the civil rights act of 1964.

explain to our audience how important that 1964 civil rights act was, and what liberties and protections are at risk of being eroded today? >> well, the 1964 civil rights act provided citizenship, in an inclusive way, not an exclusive way, and not to diminish people. whereas now, there are some who are really trying to ignore. now the reality is at the end of the day, the society is moving in a different direction, because of the blackening and browning of society. they are going to be more, for the first time, the minority population is going to be the majority of our society. that is going to mean that we won't rule fruit inclusive pattern, but there are those who are trying to move history backward, by excluding history through books, by making it

harder for communities of color to vote. all of those restrictions we see. you earlier talked about trump, a new presidency, if that happens. and more and more, the right to vote is being eroded. we cannot allow that to happen. we have to stand up and be counted. we have to go to the polls, as we have set often, like never before. we have to do voter education, with registration, to create participation. i think things are want to break down, and people are really frustrated. but on the other side, there are young people who are really engaged, all over our nation. young people i think are engaged, or can or, perhaps we will be engaged more than we've ever seen, even though, today it looks like they are not going to be engaged. we have to keep those flames of hope burning and alive. >> you bring up such an important point about the changing demographics in this country, and how even though the countries demographics

change, inclusivity should still be the central tenet of it. i'm curious to get both of your thoughts on how the issue of racial grievance, particularly among the republican party, this white racial grievance that has become so core to so much of the complaints of the republican party, are affecting or back tracking race relations in this country. we are blaming diversity now on everything from airplane malfunctions to firing university professors. any problem that we have in our society, it seems the quick way to do it is to point the finger at diversity and say that's the reason why. i am curious to get your thoughts. andrea, start with you. >> well i think the thing that's most troubling for me, for both of us, is that i worked for many years for -- , who was a key lieutenant of martin's father. and we worked for an organization that he founded,

that monitored hate groups and hate crimes. it was originally called the anti-clam network, and then grew into the center for democratic renewal. and the reason that i bring that up is a very important for people to know and understand, that the rhetoric that we hear that has become mainstream, really has its roots in white supremacy philosophy. it has its roots in the ku klux klan. it has it roots in neo-nazis. and a lot of the things that we are hearing, just in every day discourse, literally are the readings, and the research that i was doing 20 or 25 years ago. so we must clearly understand not only how harmful words matter, but there are even more consequential when they are followed by actions that we are seeing. but we also must understand that these words and philosophies are rooted within white supremacy, they are rooted with in eugenics, they

are rooted with in clan philosophy, and neo-nazi philosophy. and once we understand, that once we understand how hate itself has become mainstream, i think we are going to see, we have to see more and more people that are coming together, and standing against that. >> martin, the final thoughts to you sir. >> well, i would add that there is a quote. a people that do not remember their history are doomed to repeat the mistakes of the past. we cannot allow that, we have to stay engaged, we have to not give up, not given, and not give out. particularly if we want to realize the dream that martin luther king junior, and caretta scott king envisioned. i believe that far more people want to realize the dream than those who don't. we have to keep putting that out there into the universe. and changes will come, as long as we stay engaged. >> a very important message indeed, staying engaged. martin luther king the third,

andrea waterskiing, thank you very much for your time and your insights. i greatly appreciate it. next, award-winning filmmaker eva diverting on her new film, origins, tracing the roots of why we as a people are so divided. re s divided.

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ignoring. at >> you escape trauma by confronting at. i don't like -- i write answers. >> that is a trailer, a clip from the upcoming film origin, by oscar nominated director eva duvernay, based on the new york times bestseller cast, the origins of our discontent by pulitzer prize-winning journalist isabelle wilkerson.

origin we've seen from the past and present, as it tells the story of isabelle researching and writing the book, and it's central theme, the global phenomenon of cast systems, and how it has been historically used as a tool of oppression by world powers. joining me now is the writer, director, and producer of origins, ava duvernay. eva, it is great to see you, thank you so much for making time for us. this was an absolutely brilliant movie as we just saw in that clip, they're a masterpiece. and i wanted to actually start by asking you, broadly speaking, about the way you went about making this film. it was shot across three continents in just 37 days, it is based on a book that is nearly 500 pages. how did you even find a narrative arc to bring this film to life? what was the elevator pitch for this? >> right, well there was no elevator pitch, because you can't take a picture to a studio and say hey guys, i want to make a movie about a cast, it doesn't go over very well. so we just didn't do, that we

raised the money independently through philanthropic organizations, through like-minded organizations and individuals. everyone from ford foundation to -- , melinda gates, the nba star chris paul, people who came to gather, wanting to change the way we make, movies, and what assumes can be about. and so it was an independent effort, and the adaptation was one that i was kind of obsessed with, i wanted to figure out the way that we get this anthropological thesis into, inaccessible form, because i found more people need to know about this. >> yeah, i guess the question is why? the film touches on several themes, racism, antisemitism of course as you said, the cast system. why did you see this as a story that need to be told now? >> well, the book doesn't actually touch on several themes, its thesis is that all of those isms live on top of cast, that passed is the origin, the root of all of the isms,

the oppression,'s the divisions that we experience. whether it's racism, sexism, homophobia, islamophobia, antisemitism, ageism. all of those isms are animated by the idea of cast, that there is a human hierarchy, and in the way that we organize ourselves, one person has to be on top of another person in order for some people to have power and status, and maintain that. and so that kind of organizing principle, that idea really help me think more deeply about racism, sexism, the whole list. you can't really solve fort unless you know all of the parts of it. >> you told my colleague, chris hayes earlier this week that you didn't want to make a documentary based on isabelle's book, you actually wanted to make a feature film that would invoke empathy from viewers. tell us as a filmmaker about that contrast. when is the -- documentary film important, and when is the artistic and creative aspect of a feature

film, a narrative feature film, important? >> well, that's a great question. -- 13th, my primary goal was to offer information. i wanted to convey information, hard facts. and in this, i want that information to be more emotional. i want it to kind of get inside your bloodstream, and make your heart opened. and so in order to do that, i think there's any better way than the human face, the actor, the instrument of of sinema. and so, it was really important to me to figure out how to find a character, and in this case, i was lucky enough to be able to use isabelle wilkerson herself as a catalyst to guide us through her work. and so i made isabelle wilkerson the main character, i interviewed her for about four years, it is what during the pandemic, it was over zoom. she was very gracious, very generous, and telling the stories about her life, her personal life, which now --

alongside the thesis about cast. and to kind of create this intellectual, emotional journey. >> i was going to say, you opened our hearts, and you definitely make as shed some tears. i'm not going to give anything away, but there is a scene in india that absolutely blew my mind away. and i remember just hearing a lot of people next to be sniffling and holding back tears as they were watching that. a very powerful scene. and i want to ask you about the message, and the solitary that comes out of this movie. so much compassion among marginalized groups, it's very clear in this film for anybody who watched it. you almost see yourself on screen depending on which part or which chapter of the movie you are in. how did you see that resonating with viewers, especially as we are seeing so much division right now. in the previous segment, we were talking with martin luther king the third, and andrea waterskiing about the divisions in this country, and the need to have more inclusivity. >> well i think one of the big ways in which divisive politics

works is to make people feel alone, make them feel separate and segregated. we know that this is a tool that has worked for generations. and so, a big part of combatting that is holding hands. holding hands with exactly folks who are in your situation, who might be unaware uneducated to the fact that you are in the same situations, that they are animating principles that unite. you it is best if all of those people are separate, even better if they are fighting with each other. and so one of the big things to do is say, look there are commonalities here, we are stronger together than we are apart. and to really work to stir that energy. that is why i wanted to make this film independently, and not go through this video system. it takes, longer and there are more steps in the kitchen. we really wanted this film to be out this year, this is an election year, and it is important that we start to have this conversation. >> yeah, a very important conversation to be had. i wanted to ask you finally as a filmmaker, i know as you said, two years of research, maybe

even longer just interviews with isabelle wilkerson. what did you learn from researching this film, that is going to stay with you? >> i knew nothing about cast, i knew nothing about things like the fact that not see lawyers studied american race laws, in order to create a blueprint for holocaust particles. i knew nothing about manual scavenging in india, and what -- people endured there, and across the diaspora. there is so much i didn't know, and so many interconnections and connective tissue that i hope people are as enlightened as i was in reading isabelle's book. >> i can say the same for me, as somebody watched it, i learned a lot of watching this movie. a bit different, thank you so much, i know you've been all over the place, so we greatly appreciate your time, and your insights this evening. thank you. origin also is a cross select theaters this friday, make sure to catch it, you do not want to miss it. more ayman, after the break. yman, after the break.

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quick programming note. plan your vote is back for the 2024 primary season. good to nbc news.com forward slash plan your vote to get information on key races in your state, and any changes in voting rules there. plus, we have all the information you need aboutwhen and how to vote in your state. and then, tune in tomorrow for rachel maddow's analysis of the iowa caucuses, with steve kornac, who will be breaking down all of the results at the big ard, for a special coverage beginning monday seven pm eastern, right here on msnbc. that does it for this hour, and for this weekend. i am a man will hit in, be sure to catch ayman every saturday and sunday every -- . and if you don't already, be sure to follow the show on x and instagram. just look for our handle at eamon, msnbc. right after this break, it is defendant trump, candidate trump, with ari melber, dissecting the various cases against the former president, and the implications they might

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