to how he looks and sounds. george washington city's when he was facing rebellions from his own troops, because they were not getting paid. he put on a speech input on this crisis and said, i need to put on my spectacles. i grow weary as the country grows weary. embrace that the way that fdr did. >> see how much you are aging me? >> last night, david and i talked about this, they have been doing a lot of videos, did one after trump's town hall last week. did win today, i feel like i was beaten, i was ready to do it again. i do think we need to see all that, be very used to what he is telling. >> different mediums. i agree, the other thing is, i just think you embrace it. let's say that he announces a speech, america's face with a choice between two old white man. meet people where they are and, say i get a lot of people are

not excited about that, but that is only the similarity that me and the other guy. half >> david plouffe, palmieri, they can both. that is all for all in tonight. good evening, alex, where are you? >> did you say, where am i? >> yeah, you're not here. >> it's not the dark cone of last night. lastyou know what it, is it's dp kornacki and the big board. >> all the board is there. >> i'm here, come visit. i'm isa. >> all right. >> thank, you my friend. and thank you to you at home for joining me this hour. donald trump handling winning the iowa caucus last night, was not that much of a surprise. but this, this was. >> i don't know if you know, but they did polls tonight on the election of 2020, do you believe that it was on us or not, 80% -- 82% said it was not. >> now, before we go on further here, i should clarify that much like the size of his

inauguration crowd or is square footage in his new york city apartment, donald trump is inflating the numbers again. the real number is 66%. nbc news conducted entrance polls of voters as they try to add off to the iowa caucus sites, and 62% of the iowa caucus goers polled said they did not believe that joe biden legitimately won the 2020 election. not trump's fantasy 82%. 82% is actually the proportion of registered republican voters across the nation who agree with donald trump's language about immigrants, poisoning the blood of the country. maybe mr. trump was talking about that delightful statistic. but still, 66% is shockingly high. higher than you might expect after three years of litigating the 2020 election, in courts and in congress, after multiple indictments and plea deals that were struck by trump's codefendants.

but that entrance poll shows that the big lie won't die. and not just an iowa. in new hampshire today, donald trump made a pit stop in new york city to attend a jury selection for the child that is set to decide what damage trump owes writer e. jean carroll. they have already found trump liable for sexually abusing and defaming. at jury selection today, to potential jurors that something unusual enough that trump reportedly turned around to see who they were. those two potential jurors said they believe that the 2020 election was stolen. now, neither of those individuals were ultimately selected for the jury. that moment unfolded in new york city, in a part of this country that is traditionally understood to be deep, deep blue. and yet, there are still election deniers. to anyone with even a passing understanding of what has been

happening in our country the past four years, the big lie is on its face, preposterous. but we are seeing over and over again that the big lie and doors. it is taking root in republican voters across the country, and that makes the big lie a major x-factor in the 2024 election. but we also learned about what other x-factor in iowa tonight. this also came from internal polling conducted by nbc news. 31% of iowa's republican caucus goers believe that if trump is convicted of a crime, he will not be fit to be president. okay, so i have a lot of follow-up questions to. that does not sentiment the pent in which case trump is convicted in because he is facing quite a few? and how do these two factors interact. will trump's bouncing back and forth on the campaign trail to the courtroom solidify his support or tank it? joining me au's claire mccaskill, former u.s. senator

for the great state of missouri and co-host of the nbc podcast, how to win in 2024? and stuart stevens, former chief strategist for mitt romney's 2012 presidential campaign and a senior adviser at the lincoln project. thank you both for being with me this evening. stuart. let me start with you in terms of the numbers from republican voters. if you don't believe that a 2020 election was stolen, and you also believe that a criminal conviction would be disqualifying for donald trump, what are you still doing in the republican party at this point? >> that is a great question. there are a lot of people in denial about what the republican party is for trump. i think there is something very interesting about this because if you take these numbers and say that trump's base is those who don't believe that the election that joe biden won a free and fair election, that's

a relatively incredibly large but still, that if that is trump's base, you do the math, but that puts his base closer into the low 30s. this was an incredibly low turnout in iowa last night, just over 100,000 people. the student body of texas a&m is 70,000. i think it's difficult to draw too many conclusions from it. except, one thing stuck out to me, alex. that is trump did a very good on the ground organizing job. he had a precinct captain in every precinct of iowa. that's really hard to do. there are a whole lot of precincts, and i understand, in new hampshire, he's done a good job organizing there. i think that what we're looking at is a trump campaign that's being run by professionals. i know these people. you may not like their candidate, but they are not cutting what their due.

i think you put together a much more formidable campaign. >> i think that, claire, that the ground game is one piece of it, but trump self did not visit 99 counties like ron desantis it. he did not go to the bat on a funnel debates. he's a national figure with a remarkably enduring grassroots support at the state level. i wonder when you look at these numbers for him in iowa, potentially in new hampshire nationally, is there anything that joe biden can or should do to cleave off the 30% that stewart is talking about, or that i was talking about, the reality that not everybody in the gop is for trump as strongly as perhaps trump would like to believe or are led to believe after a moment like iowa last night? >> so, here is the deal. if you look at iowa, it was a 50/50 vote. 50% voted for what was essentially an incumbent for

the republican party, and 50% voted for somebody else. that is not a great night. 100,000 people showed up, not a great turnout. this vast enthusiasm that he talks about, i don't know. 50% of 100,000 people? i don't think that this is something that the rest of the country should look at and go, oh, my gosh, it's a ground swell, what momentum. i do think that biden has to take it to him. i think he has to do what david plouffe said on chris hayes's show. he has to say, listen, i know you guys are not thorough. you have two old white men running for president, and a lot of you are not about either one of us, but look at the choice you have. look at what is on one side, integrity, normal, stable, getting results for you. and what is on the other side? chaos and a litany of lies from sun up to sun down.

those people who have never been into trump since the insurrection, they know that what he did, the insurrection, the republicans, they, now and many are college educated. they know that he's lying about what happened in the election. those are the folks that joe biden has to get along with the majority of independent voters that would never beer caught near an independent caucus. >> so you agree, claire, it's about learning at the age, the whiteness, the paleness, and say, look, this is the best that you can get, and it's measurably better than what the alternative is? >> yeah, i just think joe biden needs to be candid and early. he so good at relating to people. he really is a normal guy. he really is a guy from a working class background. he's never had a gold toilet in his entire life. he's never been a guy that's been off the until he made money of books and so forth, giving speeches and all of that, once vice president.

nothing to do with hunter biden, by the way. but he was always one of the least wealthy people in the senate, for decades and decades. this is not a guy. this is a working class guy who understands working class people. he needs to get at the, he needs to go after all the union rank and file. he needs to make sure to solidify the base. he needs to have an aggressive campaign and, most importantly, he has to do this. you know what, joe biden can deliver a win, and i don't care how well organized at the trump campaign is, you know who will beat donald trump, donald trump. >> okay, on that note, stewart's defense, i want to dig a little deeper into the conviction, the potential conviction and what that does for trump support. i am of two minds. on one hand, it seems like it obviously would be disqualifying among the certain subset of the electorate and therefore it's a bad thing for trump. it does appear that the more he rallies and rails against prosecutors, the stronger his

base of support can. b is that base of support saturated already? will those numbers increase or do you think it is decidedly a bad thing for trump to face trial and be seen in the witness bar in the trial setting a courtroom for the much rest of the 2024 campaign? >> i think it's a bad thing for trump. you know, senator, i think the majority of americans here will look at this and find something very unsettling about having a presidential candidate, the former president hit the dock, and if he is convicted, think about it. what part of american life do we say that is a good thing? is that a thing teachers say are coaches say, boy scout or girl scout leaders? he's been able to create this universe that if he believes that the election was stolen, that means that he should be precedent, and if he believes that, that means that the deep state out there, this mythical

thing, the only way they can stop him from returning to what he should rightfully have is put him in jail. that's sort of a unified barrier of the world. it's like, if you know about the pyramids, a lot of those things make sense, but they didn't. i think that there is a limit to how many people are going to buy into that universe. i personally think that this will become a two person race quickly. trump all lock it up on super tuesday, and i think post convention, biden will move ahead. i think biden will win by a much more comparable margin than he did last time. >> i do want to ask, though and i do think that is the realistic view or awfully realistic, optimistic view of the american electorate, claire, but i still find it shocking. when you think about where donald trump was two years ago, in the aftermath of january six, a person whose political future was roundly dismissed or thought to be over, and where

he is now, granted, 50% of iowa caucus voters enough vote for him, but 50% did, and 65%, 66% of caucus goers in the 2020 election thought it was stolen. that is a shocking. that still remains shocking to me, the durability of the big lie. does it surprise you or do you think that that part of the republican party's loss? >> listen, this is a guy who never understands about expanding in space. this is never somebody who wanted to ignite the country, even four people did not vote for him. this is always someone who played to his base and only to his base. that's one of the reasons why he's lost a lot. here is the deal, i think him getting indicted solidified his base. if you look at his polling, it jumped out there he got indicted in new york, i am paying a porn star, and it kept solidifying as he got more and more charges. his base within the republican

party. but more than one thing can be true at once. that's a lot different than independent swing voters in suburban areas. it's a lot different than college educated women who are thinking a lot about what this mandate to their freedom. and i really do think that sewer is right. i think that he may have this calcified a bubble of people who think that, you know, this was a big fraud, and the government is after them, and its deep state, and they are ignoring the facts. but most americans understand that if you're in the courtroom in america, it's about the facts and how it looks in front of the jury of your peers. i think it will look different for swing voters, yes, who will decide presidential elections. it's not the base of, parties it's the people capable of voting for either party. >> that is a point that we should never, never lose sight. of temporal since when states in the handful of swing states in the country will actually decide the fate of american liberal democracy.

claire mccaskill and stuart stevens, thank you both for your wisdom tonight, i appreciate it. >> thank you. >> we have a lot more to get to tonight, including some goodbyes to republican presidential candidates asa hutchison, vivek ramaswamy and also maybe sort of goodbye to the man who is not yet quite figured out that he is basically out, ron desantis. plus, how donald trump's maga movement is up and it not only republican politics but evangelical christianity itself. we'll have more on that with journalist tim alberta coming up next. t.

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in carlisle, iowa, a caucus goers spoke in support of donald trump. he said, i know that he is picked by god for this hour. there are things that he has done in his past, but we all have pass. it means, what he has done is, passes picked by god. and a statement like, that there is compelling data to back up how much white christians, especially evangelicals, love trump. and since polling from last night shows that 54% of the respondents were white evangelical christians, and 53% of them voted for trump. now, compare that to 2016, when

62% of respondents identified as white evangelicals but only 21% voted for donald trump. in the eight years between those two i will caucuses, that is trump has not only more than doubled his support from evangelicals, he's also redefined what it means to be one. author tim alberta describes that phenomenon this way. more than a finger in american history, the 45th president transformed evangelical from spiritual signifier into political punchline, exposing the selective morality, the ethical inconsistency and rank hypocrisy that for so long lurk in the subconscious of a movement. to be fair, the collapse predated trump. he did not alter the cultural and securities of the church, but he did identify them and pray upon them in ways that should have accelerated the unraveling of institutional christianity in the united states. joining me now is tim upper, staff writer at the atlantic,

also the author of the kingdom, the power and the glory, american evangelicals in an age of extremism. tim, i wish i had you at my side last night as we try to understand or exactly hadn't happened in iowa, especially with evangelicals. they're riding on this is so essential and so to the point that we all tried to me, which is the way that the trump has corrupted the evangelical movement. i wonder in your estimation, what it means to be an evangelical in this country at this moment. >> you know, it's funny, alex, there is this and other where a few decades ago, where somebody wrote in a book that somebody, and evangelical was somebody, like billy grant, and followed billy grant. somebody asked graham about that, and they asked him what it meant to be an evangelical and they said, you know, that's funny. i would like to know the answer to that myself.

at the risk of being two or productive here, we are beginning to flirt with this territory where definition speaking, evangelicalism has far more to do at least with the perception of the greater public with political engagement, partisan political identification than it does with any particular theology or any religious conviction. if you take it a step further, look at the exit polling, look at the social science around this, if you look at the fact, alex, that during donald trump's presidency, more and more of donald trump supporters were self identifying as evangelicals, even though they were simultaneously attending church less and less often, i think one might reach the uncomfortable conclusion that perhaps the best definition of what it means to be an evangelical is to be a conservative white republican trump supporter. that is a tragedy on a number

of different levels, but i think was profoundly, it is a tragedy for the gospel of jesus christ. >> right, the gospel is no longer part of the occasion, what is replaced by? it? that leads to my next question, which is, do you think maga-ism has become a place holder for religion? >> well, yes, if you think about what it means to be religious, if you think about what it means to have an identity rooted in unshakable faith. i don't want to be reductive here, and i don't want to paint with too broad a brush. again, the evangelical community is large. it's huge and complicated. there are a lot of factors here to explore. but what we see time and again, 52% in iowa, and this is now, we're reaching a place where,

we are being confronted with some uncomfortable realities about what it means to be part of the evangelical movement and, frankly, where the line blurs between religious identity and political identity, and is there emerging at the two? and, frankly, i think there is always a danger in politics, whatever side of the political aisle that here on, of sort of turning political conviction into religious conviction or worshipping at a certain altered that is not an alternative job is an author to political idolatry or political identity. that is a danger that has always been there. i think it is uniquely dangerous in this moment, and to be clear, as i write in the book, we have examples from the not so distant past, a sort of political religion or a civil religion supplanting, competing with actual religion, and i

don't think we are all that farmer moved from that in this country now, looking at what happened last night. >> yeah, it's clear that trump wants to capitalize on this religious fervor that may undergrowth people support of him. he's out there taking out ads that god made trump a video. where they literally called trump a shepherd to mankind. he is not shying away from this. you know, i have been to a number of trump rallies, tim, as a journalist. i think the thing that people miss about trumpism and maga-ism is the sense of belonging that is so fundamental to the entire maga movement. in addition to being xenophobic racist offense, they are also much like revivals, there's a lot of camaraderie, a shared sense of belonging. it seems to me that that answers a fundamental loneliness that may be part of the american experience, not to just get to theoretical about

it, but i think that dovetails with some of the religious inclinations here. >> no, alex, listen, you're hitting the nail on the head. when you think about the shared identity, the common, you described it as a sense of belonging, and i think that is right. when you think about why people gather in a religious setting, it is because they are part of one body, and as a part of the body, they are sort of transcending the world around them, and they are coming together to worship a god that is bigger than them, in the evangelical christian tradition. that is the work of jesus and dick draw closer to jesus and become more and more cry psych. that is the essence of that particular religious experience, and it's not an exaggeration

when you go to the trump rallies they talk with folks like the one that you just quoted from the article, and they are describing it in similar terms, that is a transcendent religious experience that is rooted in notions of shared identity, and they are very much coming there to pursue a sort of salvation. it may not be a pickle salvation, but it's a salvation rooted in this same sense of something that they can't find anywhere else, that they're coming back for a time and time again. during barack obama's presidency, or while he ran for president, if you had heard him talking with or promoting a video saying that he was a shepherd to all of mankind, the evangelical movement would have been up in arms. this is heretical. this is blasphemous, and yet, donald trump seems to get a pass, time and time again for

doing these things that no other politician, republican or democrat, frankly, would get a pass for doing. and we should ask ourselves why, if the answer does not start to flirt with this terrain of civil religion or political religion, than i don't think we're being honest with ourselves. if we are being honest with ourselves, if we are willing to engage with the uncle double topic around what happens when trumpism becomes civil religion in this country for millions and millions of people, what that might imply moving forward, and we are doing a disservice to our holistic democracy? >> tim, i really think you are one of the most well informed thinkers and writers on the topic. i am deeply appreciative of your time and writing, thanks again. >> thanks, alex. >> coming up, do you remember, vivek ramaswamy's infamous tea tape? really, it exists. now that is out of the race, we'll have a refresher on the

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i can endorse you. >> i'm endorsing him for president. give him a round of applause. >> you owe me. >> that is with the last few days in iowa have been like for a presidential candidate isa hutchinson. to two minutes after that, governor hutchinson fully lost control of that event as he was mobbed by even more provocateurs, including a man in a diet giant carrots suit imploring people to go vegan. that's what happens when asa hutchison is on the campaign trail. all of this probably would have made for a bigger iowa campaign news had anyone remembered that asa hutchison was actually running for president. even some of asa hutchison's supporters in iowa had forgotten about him. just a week before the caucuses, governor hutchison told the washington post, i'm not on the door today in an iowa voters said they loved me. then they said who are you going to support? and i said i'm still running. moments like that are probably part of the reason isa

hutchinson announced today that he is suspending his campaign. that news comes less than 24 hours after the exit of another candidate, vivek ramaswamy, who announced last night he was dropping out and endorsing donald trump. like hutcheson, ramaswamy's campaign was at the very least memorable. it was hard to ignore a guy who can whose campaign with an anti-woke crusader despite going to grad school on a soros family funded diversity scholarship, a man who wanted to end birthright citizenship for an documented immigrants despite being the child of emigrants himself. ramaswamy's most memorable campaign moments mostly came on the debate stage, where you could literally feel the contempt the other candidates had for him through the television set. but he had some choice moments off the debate stage as well, like the time you forget to mute himself while peeing during a live audience session with elon musk. or the time he got a cease and

desist letter from eminem for this thing. >> ♪ ♪ ♪ >> does he own it? but the exit of mr. ramaswamy and governor hutchinson, there are just three major candidates. one candidate among them who feels like the odds on favorite to drop out next. >> a real quick before we get started. governor desantis i won a percent to you this participation trophy. probably not gonna win the election, right? but we're proud of you for trying. there you go. he's special, he's unique, and he's our little snowflake. >> see the way security just pulls him off the stage? that was the same group of

pranksters who took over governor hutchison's campaign just days before, which might be a sign. remember, it was only a year ago that polls were showing a tightly contested race between ron desantis and donald trump. but in that year desantis's campaign has basically imploded. that is due, in part, to trump's relentless attacks against him but also due to desantis's inescapable awkwardness. this is elaine godfrey in the atlantic. the governor lacks personal warmth and much capacity for small talk. he is seemingly unable to stand naturally. his hands are always slightly raised, as though he's wearing too many layers, like randy in a christmas story. desantis has an unsettling habit of looking his lips when he speaks, and his smile never quite reaches his eyes, which seem full of terror. just in second place finish in iowa, desantis's future is very

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this race, polls suggest it's a matchup between nikki haley and donald trump. that doesn't mean you are likely to see the two people in the same room with the same time, though. abc t news tonight canceled its new hampshire debate after governor haley scituate not show up unless donald trump did as well. so now it's up to new hampshire voters to decide. here's what some of them told my colleague. >> somebody won a vote for? >> i won a vote for nikki haley. >> why? >> partly because i don't want trump to win. >> if i did choose, it would be nikki haley. >> why? >> because it's time we had a woman in office and i like her beliefs. >> we think nikki haley has more of a shot at beating joe biden because she's gonna pull some of those moderates out. >> i like nikki haley. >> why? >> i think she's got fresh ideas. i'm not sure if trump can win. >> there are some problems with nikki haley, but i do trust her as kind of a better

alternative. >> joining me now, sam stein, deputy managing editor for politics and political. sam, my buddy, it is good to see you. thank you for making the time. >> of course. >> what's your read on haley's decision not to do this debate on thursday? >> it's predictable. you've probably watched the last round with her and ron desantis. i don't know how many times we are reminded of ron desantis lies.com. >> who's gonna remind? as >> i was a little bit worried about that. i don't know, hopefully it's ingrained in my memory. the point here is that that debate didn't do much, for her or for desantis. just a kind of volleying opposition for two hours, indicating the other is a despicable human being. why she should do now is not, she needs to create a two person race with donald trump. that's why when she finished

third in iowa she said we just created a two person race, even though she finished third. but she wants that contrast in putting herself on the stage with the other candidate, not named trump still in the race doesn't do it. >> what's ironic is if donald trump wanted to attend the debate it's arguable whether or be a good thing for nikki haley. she has almost categorically refused to take on donald trump in any meaningful way, which begs the question, why run against donald trump unless you're actually running against donald trump. i should feel like a two person race is the worst thing for the nikki haley candidacy in a practically speaking way. >> new hampshire is unique. new hampshire does have this core of independent minded republicans. in fact, up until october if you're democrat you say you could register to vote in the republican primary, and i'm sure thousands of them did, to vote for chris christie, they could be up for grabs with nikki haley. in new hampshire specifically i

think i wouldn't be surprised if she were to go harder at trump on some of his vulnerabilities. much harder than she has so far. to your point, she hasn't really. eventually we'll get to the point where we do have retrospective methods about whether it was a smart or foolish idea for the other candidates in the race to assume, do not go after trump on the legal issues, on some of the vulnerabilities, hoping that he would wiggle or that it would be one or two person race alongside with him. haley made that bet like just like asa hutchison and christy. she said look i got this far and they didn't, but at some point you do have to go against the front-runner. the question now is, if she doesn't successfully in new hampshire, can she do it anywhere else? i don't know if you can. >> it does beg the question of how artful a politician nikki haley. is she artful insofar as she's gotten this far without actually deeply criticizing

donald trump and retaining some version of good standing within the republican party and appealing to moderates. she's trying to be everything to everyone. but mark leibovich rates in the atlantic that the more you listen to nikki haley than what she or her message gets. i need not remind her about her comments not being fought over the issue of slavery on fox & friends this morning she said america has never been a racist country. i am surprised, sam, that in the head to head matchups between haley and biden, she continues to beat biden by a very healthy margin given the real fundamental reality of her campaign setting aside all the trump stuff. >> some of that just maybe biden's current state of weakness. in his approval rating it's just abysmal, frankly. historically bad. doesn't mean it can't get better but he's not doing well

in relation to all the candidates. he's doing worse against haley in these polls. i would say i think she's maybe -- there's obviously some skill level to her. she is a daughter of -- american immigrants in south carolina. in that state it takes skill to get elected as governor. especially since she wasn't ahead candid in that. race she has the ability to morph to political times in the moments. she was a tea partier. then she was a trumper. before that she is a trump critic, then in the trump cabinet. she left and said she was not, she was critical of january six, then situ wasn't going to primary trump, decided to primary trump. and now became a muddy. that window has shifted. a republican moderate today is different than a republican moderate ten years ago. but some of that just has to do with her ability to go with the

tides in the political moment. what does that mean if she were to make it through somehow to the general election? i think that makes her formidable to a degree but it also creates these vulnerabilities. you can see a campaign against her where it's like, what are her actual capabilities? how could she served with trump? how close does she associate herself with that maga brand, and why didn't she criticize trump for his legal issues during the primary. those are potent arguments against. her but i think she has skills as a politician. >> nikki haley, the person trump said is a globalist because she likes globes. i don't know whether that counts as a criticism or a compliment. sam stein, my friend, thank you for your wisdom, as always. when we come back, a significant number of iowa caucus goers said they wouldn't support donald trump if he is convicted of a prime, but of trump's lawyers get their way,

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entrance poll, iowa caucus goers were asked, if trump is convicted, it's unfit to be president? 65% yes, but 31% now. now whether or not that question will be put to the test is very much up in the air. donald trump's comically busy calendar has a number of potential court dates. still awaiting rulings that may affect t march 4th date of his election interference case in d.c., and the mar-a-lago case, down in florida may be the simplest case to try before the election, but some recent developments there have us wondering what the judge is doing and what it means, tonight trump's attorney filed a 68-page motion, 68 pages that has the potential to cause

delay if judge cannon agrees with them, it was just put up an hour ago. they accuse special counsel jack smith's office of colluding with the biden white house, and on that basis, they are seeking a whole bunch of material, saying special counsel's office is seeking to avert its eyes from a exculpatory discoverable evidence in the hands of senior officials at the white house, doj, and fbi, who provided guidance and assistance as this lawless mission proceeded. the court should conduct fact-finding on any disputed facts relating to the scope of the prosecution team, enter an order resolving the parties dispute on that issue, and order the special counsel's office to produce the requested discovery. joining me now, joyce vance, former u.s. attorney from the northern district of alabama. joyce, thanks for being here. i literally just got this motion a minute ago but so i haven't had a chance to review, but it sounds like trump's lawyers want to expand the number of people in the

agencies that are deemed prosecution team in terms of the special counsel's office. is that right? >> that's right. this is a story of fantastical narrative of trump as the victim, done wrong by a weaponized executive branch without to get him. and so for starters what he is saying, and this is an argument that there is debate back and forth about in discovery, to be frank, but he is saying that the prosecution limited the scope of their search for material they had to turn over to trump far too narrowly. they want, for instance, the special counsel's office to go back to people in the justice department and the fbi, and perhaps that's warranted. this is an 11th circuit case, and a lot in the 11th circuit says prosecutors have to talk to any agents who they worked closely with. that's the essence of the requirement. but then parts of this, other parts are just completely out of bounds. they want the special counsel

to go and work with the entire intelligence community to turn over everything in the intelligence community's possession that touches on anything to do with this. so i think the safe thing to say is that we should wait for jack smith's response, which will undoubtedly be pretty harsh, given what the defense is requesting here. >> this seems like a bit of theater to delay the case. would you say that's accurate? the idea that somehow the prosecutorial team extends to the entire intelligence community, a secret service, and the white house, is, in a word, crazy, but the question is, how seriously does judge cannon take something like this? >> that's the problem here. because judge cannon has never hesitated to put her thumb on the scales of justice for trump. she has delayed this case to the point where it's really less and less clear that it's even possible to try this case and get a verdict before the election. now she's presented with the

opportunity to delay things even further. there are also questions about classified discovery. this could be where that may trial date goes off the rails. >> it also sounds like in this filing, the 68 pages, that president trump is gonna dispute at trial be contentions by the special counsel's office that mar-a-lago was not secure and that there was a risk the materials stored that presents residents could not be presidents compromised. i will have to remember when we saw pictures of compromised government documents being stored in a bathroom. it doesn't seem a stretch to say they were not secure. but trump's team wants to argue that? >> it's not and it's not a defense. trump wasn't entitled to possess classified material, game over. doesn't matter if he kept in his bathroom, his ball room, if he had built himself a skiff incented there. he simply wasn't entitled to have this in his possession and perhaps more importantly, the

obstruction of the investigation that was an effort to reclaim it, those are criminal acts, and of story. >> it sounds to me, joyce, the are not very bullish on this trial getting underway before the summer or potentially the election. does it seem to you that the best hope for a federal trial is the washington d.c. election interference case? >> that all depends on the judge, on aileen cannon. the mar-a-lago case, the classified documents case, is not his complicated, in many ways, is a january 6th case, either the know there are multiple defendants. discovery could be completed in a couple of weeks. the case could be set for trial, and it could go on that day. but it depends on if aileen cannon wants it to or not. >> joyce vance, always good to talk to you as especially we have this breaking legal news. thank you for your time, joyce. that is our silver tonight. now it is time for the last word with my friend and colleague lawrence