eyes have grown weary in terms of the country. embrace that, you know, the way that fdr did. >> see how much you are aging me? see america? >> see how much. and last night, davin i talked about this, i notice they've been doing a lot of videos. they did one after trump's town hall last week. >> today. >> they did one today about i'm the only guy who has beaten donald trump. i'm ready to do it again. i think we need to see all that, be very comfortable, be very used to what he looks and -- >> in different mediums. but i agree, the other thing is that i think he just embrace it. like let's say he announces a speech. announcement speech. america is faced with a choice between two old white men. and i get a lot of people excited about that. >> david plouffe, jennifer palmieri, great to have you both. alex wagner tonight starts right

now. where are you? good evening. >> did you say where am i? >> yeah. you're not here. >> it's just that you know what it is it's steve kornacki and the big board. >> oh, the board is here. i got it. >> so i'm here. come visit. i miss you. thank you, my friend. and thanks to you at home for joining me this hour. donald trump handling winning the iowa caucus last night was not that much of a surprise. but this -- this was. >> i don't know if you know but they did polls tonight on the election of 2020. do you believe it was honest or not? 82% said -- 82% said it was not. >> now, before we go on any further here, i should clarify that much like the size of his inauguration crowd or his square footage in the new york city apartment, donald trump is inflating the numbers again. the real number is 66%.

nbc news constructed entrance polls of voters as they headed into those iowa caucus sites, and 66% of caucus goers polled said they did not believe joe biden legitimately won the 2020 election. not trump's fantasy 82%. 82% is actually the proportion of registered republican voters across the nation who agree with donald trump's language about immigrants poisoning the blood of the country. maybe mr. trump is thinking of that delightful statistic. but still 66% is shockingly high, higher than you might expect after three years of litigating the 2020 election in courts and in congress after multiple indictments and plea deals that were struck by trump's codefendants. but that entrance poll shows that the big lie won't die. and not just in iowa. on his way to new hampshire

today, donald trump made a pit stop in new york city to attend a jury selection for the trial that is set to decide what damages trump owes writer e. jean carroll, a woman the court has already found trump for sexually abusing and defaming. at jury selection today two potential jurors said something unusual enough that trump reportedly turned around to see who they were. those two potential jurors said they believed the 2020 election was stolen. now, neither of those individuals was ultimately selected for the jury, but that moment unfolded in new york city in a part of this country that is traditionally understood to be deep, deep blue. and yet there were still election deniers. to anyone with even a passing understanding of what has been happening in our country the past few years, the big lie is on its face preposterous. but we are seeing over and over again that the big lie endures.

it is taking root in the brains of republican voters across the country, and that makes the big lie a big "x" factor in the 2020 election. we also learned another "x" factor in iowa last night. this one also came from entrance polling conducted by nbc news. # 31% of caucus goers believe if trump is convicted of a crime believe he'll not be fit to be president. okay, so i have a lot of follow-up questions to that. does that sentiment depend on which case trump is convicted in? because he's facing quite a few. and how do these two factors interact? well, trump's bouncing back and forth from the campaign trail to the courtroom solidify his support or tank it? joining me now is claire mccaskill, former u.s. senator for the state of missouri and co-host of the podcast how to win in 2024, and stuart stevens.

thank you both for being with me this evening. stuart, let me just first start with you in terms of these numbers from republican voters. if you do not believe that the 2020 election was stolen, and you also believe that a criminal conviction would be disqualifying for donald trump, what are you still doing in the republican party at this point? >> well, that's a great question. i guess a lot of people are in denial about what the republican party has become. i think thursday something very interesting about this because if you take these numbers and you say that trump's base is those who don't believe that the election -- that joe biden won a free and fair election, that's a relatively incredibly large, but still if that's trump's base you can do the math but that puts

his base somewhere closer in the s. this was an incredibly low turn out in iowa last night. just a little over 100,000 people voted. the student body of texas a&m is 75,000. so i think it's difficult to draw too many conclusions from it. one thing really stuck out to me, alex, and that is trump did a very good on the ground organizing job. he had a precinct captain in every precinct in iowa, i've been told. that's really hard to do because there's a whole lot of precincts. and i understand in new hampshire he's done a very good job organizing there. i think what we're looking at is a trump campaign that's being run by professionals. i know these people. you may not like their candidate, but they are good at what they do, and i think he's going to put together a much more formidable campaign. >> i think that, claire, the ground game is one piece of it, but trump himself didn't visit

99 counties like ron desantis did. he didn't go to the on ethanol debates. he's a national figure with a remarkably enduring, you know, grass roots support at the state level. and i wonder when you look at these numbers for him in iowa and potentially in new hampshire nationally, is there anything that joe biden can or should do to cleave off the 30% that stuart's talking about or that i was talking about and sort of the reality not everybody in the gop is for trump as strongly as perhaps trump would like to believe or we are led to believe after a moment like iowa last night. >> so here's the deal. if you look at iowa it was a 50-50 vote. 50% voted for what is essentially an incumbent for the republican party. and 50% vote under somebody else. that's not a great night. 100,000 people showed up, not a great turnout. this vast enthusiasm that he

talks about, i don't know. 50% of 100,000 people? i don't think this is something that the rest of the country should look at and go, oh, my gosh, it's a ground swell, what momentum. i do think that biden has to take it to him. i think he has to do what david plouffe just said on chris hayes' show, he has to say, listen, i know you guys aren't thrilled. you've got two old white men running for president and a lot of are not thrilled by either one of us, but look at the choice you have. look what you have on one side, integrity, normal, stable, getting results for you, and what's on the other side? chaos and a litany of lies from sun up to sundown. and those people who have never been with trump since the insurrection, they know that what he did in the insurrection, the republicans, they know and

many of them are college educatedch they know who's lying about what happened in the election. those are the votes joe biden has to get along with, a majority of independent voters that would never be caught near a caucus. >> so you agree, claire, it's about owning the age, the whiteness, the maleness and saying, look, this is basically the best you're going to get and it's measurably better than what the alternative is? >> yeah. i just think joe biden needs to be candid and relate. he's so good at relating to people. he really is a normal guy. he really is a guy from a working class background. he's never had a gold guilded toilet in his life. he's never been a guy who's been wealthy until he made money off books and so forth, giving speeches and all of that once he left the vice-presidency, nothing to do with hunter biden, by the way. but he was always one of the least wealthy people in the senate for decades and decades. this is a working class guy who

understands working class people, and he needs to get at that. he needs to go after all those union rank and file. he needs to make sure he solidifies the base. he needs to have a really aggressive campaign, and most importantly he has to do this. you know what? joe biden can deliver a win. and i don't care how well organized the trump campaign is, you know who's going to beat donald trump? donald trump. >> okay. on that note stuart stevens, i want to dig a bit into the potential conviction and what that does for trump support. i am of two minds. on one hand it seems like it obviously would be more disqualifying among a certain subset of the electorate and therefore it's bad for trump, but it really does appear the more he sort of rallies and rails against prosecutors, the stronger his base of support can be. is that base of support saturated already? will those numbers increase are? or do you think it is decidedly

a bad thing for trump to face trial and be seen in a trial setting in a courtroom through much of the rest of the 2024 campaign? >> i think it's a really bad thing for trump. you know, i'm with the senator. i think a majority of americans here are going to look at this and find something very unsettling about having a presidential candidate, a former president in the doc and if he's convicted. think about it. what part of american life do we say it's a good thing? is that anything teachers say or boy scout leaders? he's been able to crete this universe that if you believe that the election was stolen, okay, that means that he should be president. and if you believe that, that means the deep state out there, this mythical thing, the only way they can stop him from returning to what he should rightfully have is put him in jail. now, that's sort of a unified

theory of the world. it's like if you know the alien state of the pyramids, a lot of other things can make sense. but they didn't. and i think there's a limited amount of people going to buy into that universe. i personally think this is going to become a two-person race quickly. trump's going to lock it up quickly. and i think post-convention biden is going to win ahead and i think biden is going to win by a much more comfortable margin than he did last time. >> i think that is -- the realistic view or hopefully realistic optimistic view of the american electorate, claire. but i still find it shocking, right, if you think about where donald trump was two years ago in the aftermath of january 6th, a person whose political future was dismissed and where he is now granted 50% of iowa caucus goers didn't vote for him, but 50% of them did. and 65%, 66% of caucus goers

think the 2020 election was stolen. i mean that is -- that is shocking. that still remains shocking to me, the durability of the big lie. does it surprise you? or do you just think that that part of the republican party is lost? >> and, listen, this is guy who never really understood about expanding his base. this is never someone who wanted to unite the country, even people who didn't vote for him. this is always somebody when who has played to his base and only to his base. that's one of the reasons he's lost a lot. so here's the deal. i think him getting indicted solidified his base. if you look at his polling, it jumped after he got indicted in new york on paying the porn star, and it kept solidifying as he got more and more charges. his base within the republican party, but more than one thing can be true at once. that's a lot different than independent swing voters in suburban areas. it's a lot different than college educated women who are

thinking a lot about what this man did to their freedom. and i really do think stuart's right. i think he may have this calcified bubble of people who think that, you know, this was a big fraud and the government is after him, and it's deep state. and they're ignoring the facts and the evidence. but most americans understood if you're in a courtroom in america, it's about the facts and the evidence and a jury of your peers. i think it will make a big difference for swing voters. and guess who decides the presidential elections? it's not the base of those parties but those people capable of voting for either party. >> that is a fact we should never lose sight of. it is a handful who will decide the fate of democracy. thank you for your wisdom tonight. i appreciate you. >> thank you. we have a lot more to get to tonight including some good-byes

to republican presidential candidates asa hutchinson, vivek ramaswamy, and also a maybe sort of good-bye to a man who hasn't quite figured out he is basically out, ron desantis. plus how donald trump's maga movement has upended not only republican politics but evangelical christianity itself. we'll have more on that with journalist tim alberta coming up next. alberta coming up next

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last night at a precinct in carlyle, iowa, a caucus goer spoke in support of donald trump. he said i know that he is picked by god for this hour. there are things that he has done in his past, but we all have pasts. things that he's done in his past. now, in addition to statements like that, there's some compelling data to back up how much white christians especially evangelicals love trump. entrance polling from last night shows 50% of the respondents were white evangelical christians, and 53% of them voted for trump. now, compare that to 2016 when 62% of respondents identified as white evangelicals but only 21% voted for donald trump. in the eight years between those two iowa caucuses, donald trump has not only more than doubled

his support from evangelicals, he's also redefined what it means to be one. author tim alberta describes that phenomenon this way. more than any figure in american history the 45th president transformed evangelical from spiritual signifier into political punch line, exposing the selective morality and ethical inconsistency and rank hypocrisy that had for so long lurked in the subconscience to be fair the slow motion reputational collapse predated trump. he did not author the cultural insecurities of his church, but he did identify them and prey upon them in ways that have accelerated the unraveling of institutional christianity in the united states. joining me now is tim alberta, staff writer at the atlantic. he's also the author of "the kingdom, the power, the glory, american evangelicals in the age of extremism." tim, i wish i'd had you at my

side last night as we were trying to understand what happened in iowa especially with evan squelicals. and your writing on this is so essential and so, you know, really to the point that we all want to try and make, which is the way trump has corrupted the evangelical movement. i wonder in your estimation what it means to be an evangelical in this country at this moment. >> you know, it's funny, alex. there's this anecdote where a few decades ago there was someone who had written in a book that an evangelical was just anybody who like billy graham and followed billy grandmother, and someone asked graham about that, and they asked him what he thought it meant to be an evangelical and he said no, that's funny, i'd like to know the answer to that myself. and at the risk of being cute and productive here, we are beginning to flirt with this

territory where definitionally speaking where it has to do with the perception in the greater public it has to do with political engagement than it does with any particular theology or any real religious conviction, and if you take it a step further if you look at the exit polling, if you look at some of the social science around this, if you look at the fact, alex, during donald trump's presidency more and more of donald trump's supporters were self-identifying as evan squelicals even though they were simultaneously attending church less and less often, i think one might reach the uncomfortable conclusion that perhaps the best definition now for what it means to be an evangelical is be a conservative white republican trump supporter and that's a tragedy on any number of different levels, but i think most profoundly it is a tragedy for the gospel of jesus christ. >> right. if the gospel is no longer part

of the equation, what is it replaced by? and that sort of leads to my next question do you think magaism has become a place holdr for a certain kind of religion? >> well, yes. if you think about what it means to be religious, if you think about what it means to have an identity rooted in an unshakable faith, you know, again i don't want to be reductive here, and i don't want to paint with too broad a brush, again. the evangelical community is large, it's huge and it's complicated and there's a lot of texture here to explore, but what we're seeing time and again. and 53% in iowa, i mean this is now -- we're reaching a place where we're being confronted with some uncomfortable realities about what it means to be a part of the evangelical movement and frankly where the

line blurs between sort of religious identity and political identity. and is there a merging of the two? and frankly, i think that there's always a danger in politics whatever side of the political aisle you're on of sort of turning political convictions into religious conviction or worshipping at a certain alter that is not an alter to god but an alter to political idolatry. that is a danger that's always been there but i think it is uniquely dangerous in this moment. and to be clear as i write about in the book we have examples from the not so distant past of a sort of political religion or at least a civil religion supplanting, competing with actual religion, and i don't think that we're all that far removed from that in this country now looking at just what happened last night in iowa. >> yeah, and it's clear trump wants to capitalize on the

religious fervor that may undergird people's support of him. he's out there taking out ad, the god made trump video where they literally in the video called trump a shepherd to man kind. he's not shying away from this. you know, i have been to a number of trump rallies, tim, as a journalist, and i think the thing that people miss about trump -- trumpism and magaism is the sense of belonging that is so fundamental to the entire maga movement, the trump -- in addition to being xenophobic racist events they're much like revivals. there's camaraderie, a shared sense of belonging. and it seems to me that answers a fundamental loneliness that may be part of the 21st century. i think that dove tails with some ort of the sort of religious inclinations. >> alex, listen, you're hitting the nail right on the head.

when you think about the shared identity that the -- the common, you know, you describe it as a sense of belonging, and i think that that's right. and when you think about why people gather in a religious setting, it is because they are part of one body, and as a part of that body they are -- they are sort of transcending the world around them, and they are coming together to worship a god that is bigger than them. and in the evangelical tradition and the christian tradition, that is to worship jesus is and to draw closer to jesus and become more and more christ-like. that is the essence of that particular religious experience, and it is -- you know, it's not an exaggeration when you go to these trump rallies to talk with folks like the one you just quoted from that article, and they are describing it in eerily similar terms, that it is a sort of transcendent religious

experience that is rooted in notions of shared identity and they are very much coming there to pursue a sort of salvation. it may not be a biblical salvation, but it is a salvation that's rooted in this same sense of -- of, you know, something they can't find anywhere else, and they're coming back for it time and time again. and just i would note quickly, alex, if during barack obama's presidency or while he was running for president, if you had heard him talking with or promoting a video saying he was a shepherd to all of man kind, the evangelical movement would have been up in arms. i mean this is -- this is heretical, this is blasphemous, and yet donald trump seems to get a pass time and time again for doing these things no other politician republican or democratic, frankly, would get a pass for doing, and we should ask ourselves why. if the answer does not at least

start to flirt with this terrain of civil religion or political religion, then i think we're not being honest with ourselves. and if we are being honest with ourselves, if we are willing to engage with a very uncomfortable topic around what happens if trumpism becomes civil religion in this country for millions and millions of people and what that might imply moving forward, then we are doing a disservice to our plural estic democracy. >> tim, i really think you're one of the most well-informed thinkers and writers on this topic. i'm deeply appreciative of your time and your writing. thanks again. >> thanks, alex. coming up, do you remember vivek ramaswamy's infamous tape? it exists. and now we're going to have a refresher on the also rams greatest hits. that is coming up. stay with us. greatest hits. that is coming up. stay with us if you're age 50 to 85

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i've been a federal prosecutor so i love the courtroom. i make closing arguments. >> i may have done something really bad. so if you're elected president can you promise to pardon me? i'm endorsing him for president, everybody. round of applause. >> that is what the last few

days in iowa have been like for presidential candidate asa hutchinson. a few minutes after that governor hutchinson fully lost control of that event as he was mobbed by even more provocateurs including a man in a carrot suit imploring more people to go vegan. all of this would probably have made for bigger iowa campaign news had anyone remembered asa hutchinson was running for president. even some of his supporters in iowa had forgotten about him. just a week before the caucuses governor hutchinson told "the washington post" i knocked on the door today and an iowa voter said they loved me. then they said who are you going to support, and i said i'm still running. moments like that are part of the reason asa hutchinson announced today he is sus spending his campaign. that news comes less than 24 hours after the exit of another candidate, vivek ramaswamy, who

announced last night he was dropping out and endorsing donald trump. hutchinson and ramaswamy's campaign was at the very least memorable. it was hard to remember a guy who campaigned as an anti-woke, a man who wanted to end birthright citizenship for undocumented immigrants despite being the child of immigrants himself. ramaswamy's most memorable campaign moments moegsly came on the debate stage where you could literally feel the contempt the other candidates had for him through the television set. but he had some choice moments off the debate stage as well like the time he forgot to mute himself while peeing during a live audio session with elon musk or the time he got a cease and desist letter from m&m for this thing.

>> does he own it? with the exit of mr. ramaswamy and governor hutchinson there are just three major candidates left, and there is one candidate among them who feels like the odds on favorite to drop out next. >> real quick before we get started, thank you, everyone. governor desantis, i want to present to you this participation trophy. now, probably not going to win the election, right, but we're proud of you for trying. there you go. he's special, he's unique, and he's our little snowflake. >> see the way security pulls him off the stage inthat was the same group of prank centers who took over governor hutchinson's campaign just days before, which i don't know might be a sign. remember it was only a years year ago that polls were showing a tightly contested race between

ron desantis and donald trump, but in that year desantis' campaign has basically imploded. that is due in part to trump's relentless attacks against desantis, but it is also due to desantis' inescapable awkwardness. this is elaine godfried in the atlantic. the governor lacks personal warmth and much capacity for small talk. he is seemingly unable to stand naturally. his hands are always slightly raised as though he's wearing too many layers like randy in a christmas story. he has an unsettling habit of licking his lips when he speaks, and his smile never quite reaches his eyes, which seem full of terror. the distant second place finish in iowa, desantis' future is very much a question mark. and at this point it feels like this thing is coming down to just two candidates. i'll talk about where donald trump and nikki haley go from here coming up next. trump and nikki haley go from here coming up next. ith convers?

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so your rate can never go up for any reason. so call now for free information, and you'll also get this free beneficiary planner. and it's yours free just for calling, so call now for free information. it is officially time for everyone to start talking about the granite state. as new hampshire gets ready to host the first republican primary next week. and while there are three candidates formally left in this race, polls suggest it's really a match up between nikki haley and donald trump. that doesn't mean you are likely to see the two people in the same room at the same time, though. nbc news tonight canceled its

scheduled debate after governor haley said she would not show up unless donald trump did, too. now it's up to new hampshire voters to decide, and here's what some of them told my colleague katie chou. >> who do you want to vote for? >> i want to vote for nikki haley? >> why? >> partly because i don't want trump to win. >> i would just choose nikki haley. >> why? >> because it's time to have a woman in office. >> i think she has a shot of pulling those moderates out. >> i like in a case. why? >> i think she has first rate ideas. >> there are some problems with nikki haley, but i do trust her as kind of a better alternative. >> joining me now is sam stein, deputy managing editor for politics at politico. sam, my buddy, it is good to see you. thank you for making the time. >> of course. >> what's your read on haley's decision not to do this debate

on thursday? >> it's predictable. you probably watched the last one with her and ron desantis i don't know how many time. we happen reminded of the website ron desantislies.com. >> how can we forget, sam? >> i would a little worried, honestly. yeah, the point here is that debate didn't do much for her or desantis, really. and accusing each other of being despicable human beings. she needs to create a two-person race with donald trump, which is why when she finished third in iowa she said we just created a two-person race even though she finished third. but she wants that contrast and putting herself on stage with the other candidate with still in the race --

>> what's ironic to me if donald trump did actually want to attend the debate it's an open question whether it would be a good thing for nikki haley, because this is someone who has almost categorically refused to take on trump in any meaningful way, which begs the question why are you running against donald trump when you actually running against donald trump? i think a two man race would be the worst thing for nikki haley practically speaking. >> new hampshire is unique, though. new hampshire does have this core of independently meended republicans. in fact, up until october if you were a democrat in the state you could switch registration to vote in the republican primary, and i'm sure thousands did to vote for chris christie, and they could be up for grabs for nikki haley. in new hampshire specifically i think -- and i wouldn't be surprised if she were to go harder at trump on some of his vulnerabilities, much harder than she has so far. to your point she hasn't really. eventually we'll get to the

point about whether it was a smart or foolish idea for the other candidates in the race to assume -- to not go after trump on his legal issues, on some of his other vulnerabilities hoping he would kind of wither or it would be a one or two-person race alongside with him. i guess she could say, well, look i got this far and she she didn't, but at some point you have to go against the front runner and the question now is if she does it successfully, can she do it anywhere else? >> it does beg the question how heartful a politician nikki haley actually is. she's gotten so far without actually outwardly deeply criticizing donald trump and retaining some version of good standing in the republican party and appealing to moderates. she's trying to be everything to everyone. but mark writes in the atlantic the more you listen to nikki

haley, the mushy yr her message gets. i need not remind you her comments about the civil war not being fought over the issue of slavery. on fox and friends this morning she said america has never been a racist country. i'm surprised, sam, in the head to head matchups between haley and biden she continues to beat biden by a very healthy margin given the real sort of fundamental reality of her campaign setting aside all the trump stuff. >> right. well, i mean some of that may just be biden's current state of weakness, right? his approval rating is just abysmal, frankly, historically bad. doesn't mean it can't get better, but he's not doing well in relation to all the candidates. he's doing worse against haley in these polls. i would say there's some -- there's obviously some skill level to her.

she's the daughter of indian american immigrants in south carolina, a female in that state to get elected governor takes some skill especially when she was not the favored candidate in that race. but i think mark's point is also valid which is that she has the ability to morph to the political times in the moment. she was a tea partier and a trumper and then she was in a trump critic and in the trump cabinet. she left and said she was critical of january 6th. then said she wasn't going to primary trump and now suddenly becomes the moderate. a republican moderate today is very different than the republican moderate ten years ago. but some of that has to do with her -- you know, her ability to go with the tides and political moment. what does that mean if she were to make it through somehow to the general election? i think it makes her formidable to a degree, but it also creates

vulnerabilities. you could see a campaign against her on what are her actual core beliefs? how could she serve with trump and say she wasn't going to run against him and then run against him? how closely does she associate herself with that and why didn't she criticize trump? those are very pote want attacks against her, but i do think she has some skills as a pull titian. >> nikki haley, the person donald trump said is a globalist because she likes globes. i don't know whether that counts as a criticism or a compliment or -- it's a good shake, the globe. sam stein, my friend, thank you for your wisdom as always. when we come back, a significant number of iowa caucus goers said they would not support donald trump if he is convicted of a crime, but if trump's lawyers get their way, voters will never have a chance to put that to the test. we'll have more on trump's legal dramas just ahead. trump's legal dramas just ahead. i see irritated gums and weak enamel. sensodyne sensitivity gum and enamel it relieves sensitivity helps restore gum health

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yesterday in an nbc news entrance poll iowa caucus goers were asked if trump is convicted, is he fit to be president? 65% yes, but 31% said no. now, whether or not that question will be put to the test is very much up in the air. donald trump's comically busy calender has a number of potential court dates. we are still awaiting rulings that may affect the march 4th date of his federal election interference case in d.c. and the mar-a-lago case down in florida may be the simplest case to try before the election, but some recent developments there haveulse all wondering what the judge is doing exactly and what it all means for trump's scheduled may 20th trial date. tonight trump's attorneys filed a 68-page motion -- 68 pages that has the potential to cause delay if judge cannon agrees with them. in the filing it was just put up an hour ago, they accused special counsel jack smith's office of colluding with the biden white house. and on that basis, they are seeking a whole bunch of material saying the special

counsel's office is seeking to avert its eyes from exculpatory discoverable evidence in the hands of senior officials at the white house, doj, and fbi who provided guidance and assistance as this lawless mission proceeded. the court should conduct fact finding on any disputed facts relating to the scope of the prosecution team, enter an order resolving the party's dispute on that issue, and order the special counsel's office to produce the requested discovery. joining me now is joyce vance, former u.s. attorney for the northern district of alabama. joyce, thanks for being here. i literally just got this motion a minute ago, so i haven't had a chance to review it, but it sounds like trump's lawyers want to greatly expand the number of people and the agencies that are deemed prosecution team in terms of the prosecution's office is that right? >> that's right. this is fantastical nar tf of

trump is the victim done wrong by a weaponized executive branch that's out to get him. and so for starters what he's saying, and this is an argument that there's debate back and forth about in discovery, to be frank. but he's saying that the prosecution limited the scope of their search for material they had to turn over to trump far too narrowly. they want, for instance, the special counsel's office to go back to people in the justice department and the fbi. and perhaps that's warranted. you know, this is an 11th circuit case, and the law in the 11th circuit says that prosecutors have to talk to any agents who they worked closely with. that's the essence of the requirement. but then parts of this, other parts are just completely out of bounds. they want the special counsel to go and work with the entire intelligence community to turn over everything in the intelligence community's possession that touches on anything to do with this. so i think the safe thing to say here is that we should wait for

jack smith's response which will undoubtedly be pretty harsh given what the defense is requesting here. >> this seems more than anything like a bit of theater to delay this case. would you say that's accurate? the idea somehow the prosecutorial team extends to the entire intelligence community, the secret service, and the white house seems in a word crazy, joyce. but the question is how seriously does judge cannon take something like this? >> and that's the question here. because judge cannon has never hesitated to put her thumb on the scale of justice for trump. it's really less and less clear that it's still even possible to try this case and get a verdict before the election. now she's presented with the opportunity to delay things even further, and there are also questions about classified discovery. this could be where that may trial date goes off the rails. >> it also sounds like in this filing, again, 68 pages, that

president trump is going to dispute at trial the contention from the special counsel's office that mar-a-lago was not secure and that there was a risk of materials stored at those premises could not be compromised. joyce, i'm old enough to remember when we saw pictures of top secret or classified government documents being stored in a bathroom. it doesn't seem like a stretch to say the storage of these documents at mar-a-lago was not secure, but somehow trump's team intends to argue that? >> it's not. and it's not a defense. trump wasn't entitled to possess classified material, game over. it doesn't matter if he kept it in his ballroom or built a skiff and sent it there. he simply wasn't entitled to have this in his possession and perhaps more importantly the obstruction of the investigation that was an effort to re-claim it, those are criminal acts, end of story. >> it sounds to me, joyce, you're not very bullish on this trial getting under way before this summer or the potential election visit. does it seem to you the best

hope for a federal case or federal trial is the washington, d.c. election interference case? >> so that all depends on the judge, on aileen cannon. the mar-a-lago case, the classified documents case is not as complicated in many ways as the january 6th case even though there are multiple defendants. discovery could be completed in a couple of weeks. the case could be set for trial and it could go on that may date, but it depends on whether aileen cannon wants it to or not. >> joyce vance, always good to talk to you especially as we have this big breaking legal news. thank you for your time. that is our show for tonight. "way too early" with jonathan lemire is coming up next. i come here. i meet with great groups in new hampshire. i then get on a plane late at night when it's snowing and freezing out and they say, sir, it's goingbe