good to be with you, i'm katy tur. it is getting spicy inside a new york city courtroom where the judge overseeing the second e. jean carroll defamation trial against donald trump is forcefully admonishing his lawyer lawyer. and it's clear he does not like what he's hearing. reporters inside the room say trump has slammed the table with his hands and ranted loudly enough for the jury to hear saying things like now she seems to have gotten her memory back. and carroll's statements are false. he said this as the jury was being dismissed, and quote, this is really a con job. judge kaplan was not having any of that and on his second warning, he told donald trump he might have to consider kicking him out. i understand you are very eager

for me to do that. to which trump put his hands up in the air and said i would love it. i would love it. i know you would judge kaplan said back because you just can't control yourself in this circumstance. you just can't. it sounds like an episode of larry david, and it wasn't just trump, his lawyer was sternly admonished multiple times, told to stand up when she addresses the court and so sit down after his rulings. the question really is right now not about defamation or what donald trump owes but the broader question, is this behavior from both donald trump and elina haba real or for show. is this a court case or campaign stop, joining us now, former u.s. attorney and msnbc legal analyst joyce vance. and creator of the documentary series, the circus, and david drucker, the author of "in trump's shadow," everybody welcome. i want to start with you in

this, i think that's a central question. we'll get to the details of what's happening inside the courtroom. is this a court case or a campaign stop? >> every single court case that's before donald trump, and there's a lot of them, are political opportunities for trump, and he's playing to the court of public opinion. his end game on all of this is to get public opinion, because clearly the courts are going to rule against him here. what's interesting here is that i think at this point ron desantis and nikki haley saying, god, i wish i had been indicted. obviously these political travails have helped trump among the base and the primary. the question is what does it do long term. what we don't know yet, and what's troublesome for the trump campaigns are the unknowns. this is the first time a jury will find compensatory damages against truck. we know that's in his head, and he won't react well. the other thing we know is if

there's a conviction in any of these cases, the data shows half of republicans mean he could have a very different view for his electoral cans in the fall. >> you're talking about half of the republicans. i have a question of whether they're really going to consider that a disqualifying event. if any of those hard core republicans will, i don't think they will. what about the middle. i asked of governor sununu, he said if donald trump gets the nomination, even if convicted, this is governor sununu of new hampshire, he said he would vote for him. you cannot describe as a hard core maga guy. he's moderate and down the middle. so if someone like him is still saying they're going to vote for donald trump, how do you weigh those numbers that you just cited, mark? >> well, i mean, the outstanding question is that data doesn't suggest how voters would feel if it were on appeal, and clearly the case, even if he's found guilty will be on appeal. it's a pretty gray area. what i think that maybe not

factored in and that we know bothers a lot of voters, particularly independent voters and a lot of republicans like me is just the chaos of it all. and this is just going to be so much. when you look at all of the court cases coming up, i think what voters reacted to in '20 and why they elected biden a lot, he was going to calm the chaos, and all trump was doing is creating a lot more of it. >> david, what about from what you're hearing? >> look, what we have seen so far in iowa, and what we see on the ground in new hampshire so far, and i'll get there thursday, when you look at the numbers, and none of this has hurt trump, in the context of the republican primary, the indictments were the best thing to happen to him, he made it a point to show up in court before big evens because it reminds hiss base and other republicans supporting him why they like him. they like him because they think he's being persecuted, they think these indictments are political, and he's happy to show up in court. he will do this all the way until he's got the nomination

secured and locking at the past several months, it's a very good strategy for him. what happens in a general electionte of joe biden months from now is very hard to say. voters make all sorts of suppositions about where they will be if a hypothetical comes to be. once they get there, they look at things differently. often. not always, but often. and obviously how joe biden conducts his campaign with all of the doubts about his age and certain policy concerns will have a bearing on how they look at trump. if trump were to be disqualified, it wouldn't have taken the indictments to do it. between january 6th, his refusal to concede the last election and all of the things that he says at his rallies, given everything we have seen since 2016, the public could have grown tired of all of this. >> the question i have, my

stubborn question, who's the voter who did not vote for donald trump in 2020 who's going to vote for donald trump in 2024? he's going to need quite a few of them in key places in order to win. 's to get the same turnout. part of what the lot of voters who did not vote for him in 2020, they cite the chaos, the drama surrounding donald trump. he was in everybody's face. they didn't want to listen to him any longer. they didn't want to have the president in their daily lives any longer. with donald trump out there being on the campaign trail, showing up with these court cases, being more in americans faces again, does that hurt him or help him in those that are unsure about where they want to go. >> i don't think it helps him with voters that are unsure and abandon him because of the same behavior, but these voters are also going to make a different calculation this time. in 2020, donald trump was a much bigger presence in their daily lives with all the things they didn't like than he is now because he was the president.

they could all imagine in joe biden that he would be exactly what they wanted him to be. four years later, they may look at joe biden with a record in office with things happening both domestically and around the world, having to do with the economy and foreign policy and other issues that are things they do not like. they may be more concerned about his age four years later than they were four years earlier, there's also the issue that trump is able to present himself especially to soft republicans who didn't vote for him because they couldn't deal with all of his drama, these republicans might say to themselves, well, you know, i gave it a try, but i'm generally a republican anyway, and maybe i can deal with the tweets this time because the policies were so much better. that can happen and with such small margins in michigan, wisconsin, we say the states, arizona, georgia, a small shift back towards trump can make all the difference. >> that's true.

it is a handful of votes in the scheme of things, a few thousand votes in a few key states. let's get inside the courtroom. a cross-examination of e. jean carroll regarding what she says has happened to her life. the judge has been very stern, reading through the reporters' notes inside the courtroom, the way he's treated donald trump, what do you know about judge kaplan, joyce? judge kaplan has been on the bench for a long time, since 1994. he has good courtroom control, and that means he doesn't tolerate nonsense in his courtroom. what's really surprising here is the number of times he has had to admonish alina habba.

she has been told to stand up when she speaks to the court, to sit down after the judge rules, and the way that this plays out is with trump's bad behavior in court where this morning he's been disruptive, he's made comments that are audible to the jury that go into matters that the defense has been prohibited from discussing in court, they've been told that they can't revisit the finding that donald trump sexually assaulted e. jean carroll and then defamed her. his comments are an effort to circumvent that rule. and, you know, lawyers don't win arguments with judges in court about how the judge intends to run their courtroom. so this will not end well for ms. habba. it will not end well for trump, and to the extent that a lot of it is happening in front of the jury, jurors aren't blind and they're able to understand these kinds of dynamics, and they do tend to hold them against lawyers and client who misbehave in the courtroom. >> i meant it when it sounded

like larry david, i'll read the quote, mr. trump i don't have to consider removing you from the trial. trump replies, i would love it. puts his hands in the air and shakes it. i know you would because you just can't control yourself in this circumstance. what could judge kaplan do? could he kick donald trump out of the courtroom? >> you know, he can. a disruptive party, even a defendant in a criminal case can be removed from a courtroom. i've seen it happen in a criminal case where the defendant was in essence put in a penalty box. he could see the courtroom. he could hear what was going on, but the jury couldn't see his theatrics, and the judges have to do that on rare occasions to guarantee fairness in the process. it's not only the defendant who's entitled to a fair trial. in this case, it's e. jean carroll as well. and the judge has made rulings about matters that shouldn't be presented to the jury. if trump is not able to follow

the rules in court, then the judge has an obligation to protect the process. this is a judge who knows how to do that. >> if donald trump gets kicked out of the courtroom, does that help him on appeal for this? >> no, it won't have any impact on the appeal. it won't create an issue. i think it's safe to say that judge kaplan knows how to do this. he actually handled the first criminal trial to have a gitmo defendant, osama bin laden's cook, it was a complex trial, presented a lot of complex issues to solve. judge kaplan knows how to create a record that will be safe on appeal in this matter. >> and about habba on cross-examination, what is the goal here? >> she led into that yesterday with this really sort of

lukewarm blame the victim argument, the sort of thing that doesn't play well with jurors in a sexual assault case and is unlikely to play well here when the context is a defamation case. but what she tried to do was to go through e. jean carroll's earning potential. she succeeded masterfully in exposing how well carroll did, that she was being paid a significant amount of money per piece and per column that she had had cover stories, that she was highly sought after. and so now habba has backed herself, i think, into a little bit of a corner because we're getting to the part of the story y e. jean carroll losing her job at elle magazine. elle said that wasn't as a result of the book that she wrote about donald trump, but carroll will begin to talk about the fallout from that decision. >> thank you for the legal, political end of this. still an open question of what this ultimately means for the

general election. we appreciate you guys trying to help us figure it kout. congressional leaders are at the white house. if so, what will president biden have to concede on immigration? a new polling out of new hampshire raises one big question about nikki haley, what our reporters on the ground can tell us. plus, the child tax credit could be coming back. senator michael bennet joins me with what is on the table and who else would benefit. ed more m my antidepressant. vraylar helped give it a lift. adding vraylar to an antidepressant... is clinically proven to help relieve overall depression symptoms... ...better than an antidepressant alone. and in vraylar clinical studies, most saw no substantial impact on weight. elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. report unusual changes in behavior or suicidal thoughts. antidepressants can increase

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correspondent kelly o'donnell. clue us into what's happening at the white house right now? >> this is an important meeting. we have had very limited direct interaction between president biden and speaker johnson in the few months that he has been in office in that role as the leader of the house. and this will go beyond the leadership side of bipartisan representatives to include top committees that are very much involved in this as well. intelligence and relations and so forth, appropriations. this is a substantiative meeting according to the white house and the expectations from the capitol hill side are as well. the president will also have some classified material to share with leaders. we just learned that in the white house briefing, related to ukraine and israel and wanting to be able to convey the latest information to try to compel congress to act to include that sort of support. as you know, house republicans led by speaker johnson want big border changes in order to even begin the conversation on

ukraine or israel and that is an area where president biden says he's willing to make changes and compromises, but these are huge issues, very compelling in terms of national security, very compelling in terms of the political environment we're at right now, and as you pointed out, there's a real deadline coming to try to get funding passed to keep the government open. so a very large set of facts and issues for them to deal with this afternoon. >> sound like a broken record continue to go talk about this with another deadline and another deadline, and another deadline. are they going to make this deadline, jake sherman? >> yes, i think they will. remember, katy, this is a fourth day -- my microphone fell off, i'm sorry. technical difficulties. but this is a 40-day government funding bill. it's not a controversial funding bill at all in any way, shape or form as i try to get this microphone back on. there we go. it shouldn't be controversial. the bigger issue here, and kelly

got to this, is the ukraine funding bill. speaker mike johnson said we're not funding ukraine until we get satisfactory answers on what the end game of the war is from the white house. they have not given it to johnson according to him. now, that's what he's going fob looking for. on top of that, he says we are not doing anything on ukraine at all until the border is secured. not until there's a border bill in the works, but until the border is secure, and by the way, mike johnson wants nothing to do with the senate border bill that's almost done or has been almost done now for a couple of weeks. so this is a very intractable issue, katy, and you see right now that speaker mike johnson and senate minority leader mitch mcconnell are on two different pages. mcconnell is telling senate republicans they need to vote for this border bill. they need to support it, the border bill, the bipartisan border bill in the cincinnati. mike johnson is saying we want

nothing to do with the border bill. we're not doing comp hence-- comprehensive reform. and caught in the middle. >> is there a lynch pin, something that both sides can agree on? there's also a lot of thought among immigration experts, and also just local leaders in democratic cities. that the democrats, the party, the white house, is not taking the issue seriously enough. they're misunderstanding where the public stands on the issue of immigration, and border. >> i think there is probably. mike johnson has said repeatedly that president biden should restore, remain in mexico, the trump era policy that forces people to, migrants to claim asylum in their home countries or mexico instead of coming to the u.s. border to claim asylum. the real question is if biden takes the step could johnson

move on ukraine and the answer is probably not. i don't think right now given mike johnson's very precarious position as speaker of the house, i don't think there's much he could do on the border that would unlock ukraine at least in the short term. and also by the way, israel is a major issue. he has passed ukraine, mike johnson has, and tied it to domestic funding cuts. there's more than ukraine here. there's two countries that the united states has said for decades now that we are allies of and they are being left out to dry. >> isn't that risky, kelly, for the republicans? does the white house see that as risky to deny israel aid, considering where republicans have historically stood? >> there's a question about the willingness to accomplish something, and lose political talking points. we are in an election year , and

so there's tension between the need to govern and keeping the funding going for operations and the question about where the money should go. sometimes you get the argument that because of the tense political environment that people don't want to get to a yes that might be attainable when they are also concerned about giving advantage to one side or the other, and there are certainly a lot of political fault lines here. we'll give them the benefit of the doubt, this is going to be a serious, substantiative conversation today, and they're going to try to move the ball forward. certainly that's the intelligence when leaders come to these sorts of meetings with deadlines facing them, and big issues. israel has been an area of great support. and ukraine, all the reasons we laid out in our conversation, making that difficult. and the white house bristles at the notion that speaker johnson doesn't know what outcomes are. they say they briefed him and other members of congress on the war plan and where things stand and he'll have more opportunity today to hear from intelligence officials on that.

>> i want to lean on you just a little bit further for one second. you covered the hill for so long, did it so well. you're now covering the white house, help me understand, has it ever been this fraught? has there been before this inashlt for both sides to come together on some basic issues in order to unlock the more serious issues? >> there has been a degrading of a willingness to try to accomplish things because there are not the political incentives to do that. and i think there were times where the public really expected accomplishment and deals to be done and compromise. there's less of that incentive to actually get things done now, and often when things are passed, when there is bipartisanship, it can be difficult to have that penetrate publicly for people to understand what's in the legislation that might benefit them. sometimes that gets lost. so there is definitely an environment that has shifted toward more of the battle and

less of the outcome. >> the heated political rhetoric coming at you from all sides now and all different venues, certainly doesn't help. kelly o'donnell. kate sherman, thank you very much. kate middleton has been hospitalized. what is leading to speculation that her condition could be serious? first, what is happening to nikki haley in new hampshire? our reporters are on the ground to help us explain. elp us explan k —center stage—and is crushed by a baby grand piano. you're replacing me? customize and save with liberty bibberty. he doesn't even have a mustache. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪

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globe. donald trump is hitting 50% while nikki haley is sitting at 34%. you see ron desantis there at 5. what may have happened to all of those chris christie voters that were supposed to propel her much higher in the poll. joining me from manchester, new hampshire, nbc news correspondent shaquille brewster. if you added nikki haley and chris christie's support from a poll previous to this one, she was tied with trump, just about tied with him. what's going on now? >> reporter: yeah, that's not clear. and you know, i mean that was something you and i talked about when you were here in new hampshire the idea that chris christie's support wasn't automatically going to go to nikki haley, and when i was at his campaign suspension event, i talked to a lot of the voters there, and initial response was i'm undecided right now. i still need to figure it out. that is perhaps what could be going on in new hampshire.

there are going to be fewer opportunities to hear candidates side by side, the debates that were scheduled, two debates in new hampshire, those are canceled. there was one abc for tomorrow, another cnn debate. nikki haley saying i'm only going to appear on a debate stage if donald trump appears on a debate stage. donald trump has ignored all of the stages this cycle. there are not many opportunities to more fundamentally shift the dynamics of this race. while nikki haley sa clear second place position in new hampshire, she's a ways away from taking over donald trump, and it's not clear how she does that in the next week or so. >> i'm confused about why chris christie supporters would not go to nikki haley. all here's doing is hitting donald trump, i would find it hard to believe you would go to trump. could it be desantis.

>> reporter: chris christie when he dropped out, he didn't tell his voters where to go. he didn't give them a direction to go to. he was caught before his event bashing haley and desantis, saying haley would get smoked. in talking to the individual supporters, these are individual conversations i'm having, not the full 12% that he was getting. talking to supporters, they're saying they didn't see haley as being better than desantis by and large. they saw haley as someone who still did not deny the idea that she would accept a vice presidential position with trump. her strength against trump is not clear. >> shaq, thank you very much. we have breaking news out of london. kensington palace says the princess of wales has been hospitalized. joining us outside the hospital where the princess is receiving treatment is foreign

correspondent, meagan fitzgerald. thank you for being with us. what does the palace say? >> reporter: i'll start with the princess of wales. she's recovering from planned abdominal surgery. according to the palace, it was successful and it was noncancerous. she's going to remain in the hospital for at least the next two weeks. then she will be able to be discharged and will continue her recovery at home. this is a long recovery. medical advice, according to the palace is that she doesn't do any public events. she doesn't work until after easter. we are talking several months. we have not seen the princess of wales since christmas. she has not done public events since the beginning of this year. it certainly speaks to the severity of the surgery that she had. >> what about king charles, also some medical news for him? >> reporter: yeah, that's right, earlier today, we heard from

buckingham palace, king charles will be undergoing treatment for a large pancreas next week. this is a benign case, we know that his recovery is supposed to be short. again, another situation where all of his public events will be postponed until after that procedure next week, and also worth noting here, is that the king was very public about what's happening to him because he's trying to send a message. he wants men all over the world to take heed to this, if something doesn't feel right, seem right, to go in and get it checked. the urgency behind that. again. this is benign, and it's supposed to be a short recovery process when he goes in next week. >> meagan fitzgerald joining us from the posh neighborhood of marla bone in london. thank you very much. after the break, will the federal government be allowed to regulate nuclear energy or health care or consumer safety? the supreme court is poised to say no. what's in front of the justices

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the child tax credit might be back, and its new version, according to some, is even better. the policy is part of a bipartisan tax deal that would expand benefits to lower income

families while giving significant tax breaks to businesses. joining us now, senator michael bennet who rsetate of colorado. all right. bipartisan and bicameral but there are a lot of house democrats who are saying this doesn't go far enough, including rosa delauro, a champion of the tax credit. what do you say to lawmakers like her? >> i would say she is the champion of the child tax credit, and i have been very proud to be her partner over here with sherrod brown over many years, you know. together we had a version of the credit in '21 that cut childhood poverty in america in half. a lot of people said that couldn't be done. it worked the way we said it would work, and it was an extraordinary achievement. that got undone for reasons we can talk about, and now we do have the chance to pass a bipartisan bill. it's nowhere near as good as the 2021 bill, but it is bipartisan. it will lift 400,000 kids in

this country out of poverty. it will benefit 16 million children, and if you are a working parent making $15,000 as a waitress, for example, and you've got two kids, your kild child tax credit is going from just under $2,000 to $3,600. i hope we're going to live to fight another day in 2025 when we're hopefully reversing the trump tax cuts. i think this is an important step forward for the credit and for a bipartisan consensus around it. >> do you think it's going to pass because there's also some republican grumblings about it. >> there's going to be a lot of republican grumbling about it. and i don't know whether it will pass. i think we've got to do everything we can to try to get it through the house and the senate. you know, it's rare to have a bipartisan tax bill run this place. usually stuff passes by 51 votes

around here by democrats, and then the republicans reverse it and go back and forth. it would be a lot better for the american people, especially for the most vulnerable people in our society if they could have some predictability when it came to tax law. i hope it will pass, and i hope we can improve on this work, and by the way, while we're talking about must pass stuff, katy, i got to put a plug in. we've got to get the work done on ukraine as well. which is one of the most important pieces of must pass legislation that this congress will ever confront. >> you know, i was going to ask you about that, there's the meeting at the white house right now with senate and house leaders. what do you hope is being discussed right now? >> i hope they're figuring out a way to put everybody's weapons down and get done what needs to be done. the ukrainian people have astonished the world over the last two years with their courage and with what they've achieved. they have taken back half the land that putin stole from them. they won battle after battle

after battle. they opened seaways for food to get out, without even having a navy. they disabled putin's navy and meant that the world could be fed and their fight has never been a fight for ukraine. it's a fight for democracy. and it would be shameful if at this moment we let the extremes of the republican party dictate the foreign policy of the united states when we've been actually such a leader in this context, and i hope what we're seeing in the white house is the leadership on both sides of the congress coming together to say this really, unlike most things around here where people are used to failing and blaming the other side for that failure, this is a moment when we actually can't fail, and we got to support each other so we can get this done on behalf of the american people. >> let me ask you one more question, and this is on immigration, are democrats paking a miscalculation on

immigration? does an immigration bill need to pass, something to harden the border, the southern border, new rules for the migrants that are crossing? >> i mean, as you'll remember, i was part of the gang of eight in 2013 that wrote the last bipartisan bill that passed the senate with 68 votes, had a pathway to citizenship for the 11 million people that are here that are undocumented, the most progressive dream act we have passed. the world has changed since then, tragically. should have passed that bill through the house. and today, there are 10 or 1,000 people on many days that are being smuggled to the southern border of the united states. there are transnational gangs that have basically taken over the immigration policy of the u.s., and we have to respond. you know, and i think we should respond. i wouldn't have, you know, chosen the ukraine aid package to be the place we did it, but that is where we are. so i think we need to make sure this bill is one that makes sense for the american people. it is consistent with our values

in terms of, you know, our history as a nation of immigrants and our commitment to the rule of law, and we have to remember, katy, no matter what we do here, the work is still massively undone because there's still 11 million people in america that are getting up to pick fruits and vegetables every single morning, to swing hammers in this country every single morning, going to school in the united states who still have no pathway to citizenship in this country because of our broken immigration system, so this is another step on the path, but it's a reminder of the costliness of a lost opportunity like that gang of eight bill all those many years ago that would have, i think, not only fixed our immigration system, but meant that donald trump would never have been elected president of the united states. >> there are a lot of stressors for what's happening down at the border and what's happening in democratic cities across the

country. there are also a lot of hard working individuals who are doing jobs and want the chance to participate in the system, pay taxes, et cetera. they're using the resources. they want to pay taxes on top of it to be legal. senator bennnet thank you very much for joining us. always good to have you. coming up, what merrick garland is doing in texas right now. for one and done heartburn relief, prilosec otc. one pill a day, 24 hours, zero heartburn.

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attorney general merrick garland is touring murals dedicated to the 19 elementary school children and two teachers murdered by a mentally ill person who has access to an assault rifle. garland is in uvalde to announce the long awaited release of the doj's investigation into what went wrong in the police response to the call. joining us no justice reporter, ryan reilly. what's our expectation. >> the report will be tomorrow, and garland is there to announce the results of the this critical incident report, a look at what went wrong in the law enforcement response to the shooting. and, you know, it's sort of modeled after other doj reports that have looked at police departments sort of more broadly to figure out what could be done differently, what they could, you know, change in the future, look at your ferguson reports and baltimore reports. in this instance, this is focused on a law enforcement reaction to a mass shooting, and the hope from the justice department is that this will

have not only an impact obviously for that community who, you know, went through this devastating incident to find out what went wrong and to have broader implications so that law enforcement across the country can respond to these incidents and be better prepared in the future and not make the same mistakes that were made there. it was announced right after the shooting actually took place, shortly afterwards, so this is something that the justice department has been working on for a long time, and it's obviously been long awaited by the family and the community there in uvalde, katy. >> ryan reilly, thank you very much. and there is a seemingly small case in front of the supreme court that could have massive consequences for the federal government's ability to regulate anything. two sets of governments. two sets of fishermen are against federal oversight that would require them to pay for monitors on their fish boats. it would ensure the industry does not over fish. it seems like a highly specific case, but if the justices rule

in their favor, it could overturn decades of regulatory precedent by get rid of one of the most cited cases in american law, chevron versus the nrdc. a doctrine supporting the government's ability to oppose regulations on the environment, healthcare, consumer safety and even nuclear energy. joining me slate senior writer mark joseph stern who is our wizard when it comes to the supreme court. mark, it's good to have you back. did i get the fundamentals of this case right? >> you absolutely did. this case is all about democracy and the president's ability to enact policy without a judicial veto at every turn while the facts may be about fish, herring in particular, it goes way beyond any type of maritime dispute to the question of who governs this country and whether judges can continue to amass power from the democratic branches and really seize it for themselves. >> help us understand the consequences of overturning

chevron versus the nrdc. it again, is one of the most cited cases out there in american law. >> yeah. so right now under chevron deference, when an agency faces a big decision. you mentioned nuclear regulation and we can talk about the environment, pollution, labor law, consumer law, whatever, you name it, there are a lot of ambiguities in the law and congress can't predict the future and so under this principle, if an agency interprets the law reasonably then the courts cerf to that interpretation. they say you know what? you're the expert. the epa is filled with scientists who know exactly how much mercury can be released into the atmosphere or exactly how a nuclear reactor needs to be constructed and under chevron the court said we'll defer to you. you guys understand it, we don't. this case seeks to abolish that deference and instead put unelected federal judges in the driver's seat of every major

policy decision under the sun and that would effectively mean that presidents are stricken of their ability to enact a whole lot of major policies through agencies and other parts of the executive branch because there are always going to be unelected judges sitting there who say we know better than your experts and their appointees and our position is going to be the law. >> explain who is behind this case and who is behind the fishermen and how the justices are hearing their oral arguments so far. >> so this case was pushed by the koch network and other conservative dark money groups especially those allied with the federalist society. one of the ironies is back in the 1980s it was conservative judges who loved chevron deference because at the time it was about deregulation. ronald reagan was trying to deregulate everything and justices said we should just defer to these agencies because they're trying to deregulate the country and that's good.

now the tide has completely turned and conservative judges like clarence thomas, like neil gorsuch, they have been persuaded that in fact deferring to agencies is terrible because it allows those agencies to implement regulations and according to conservative judges and justices, those regulations are just killing the free market economy and smothering everyday citizens. so what we've seen is a very concerted and well-funded campaign with links to the kochs and other billionaires and republicans to sort of push this idea on the courts that they have to overrule chevron to save democrat see and to save free enterprise in the united states and based on this morning's arguments, it seems that that is going to succeed. it seems five or six justices are ready to kill chevron. >> mark joseph, thank you very much i big consequences on that coming up, what did israel and hamas just agree to? d israel and hamas just agree to?

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♪ ♪ at the surface cel♪ ♪ar level. ♪ ♪ israel and hamas have made a

deal on aid and hostages. joining us now from jerusalem is nbc news correspondent richard engel. tell us about the details of this deal, but also i know you are reporting that there is a new houthi attack. explain that, as well. >> so starting with the houthi attack. just a short while ago, the yemeni military and that's how the houthi describes itself, said that they carried out another attack in the red sea targeting this time an american vessel. no confirmation of that. in the statement they said that they fully expect there to be american retaliation and that they are determined to continue attacking ships that are bound for israel. they say that other vessels passing through the red sea will not be targeted and something that the biden administration disputes and just earlier today the biden administration put the houthis back on the official

terrorist list making it an officially terrorist organization. i spoke to one of the top houthi leaders a short while ago, and he said that despite this new designation they had been on the terrorist list and then removed and now put back on and it will make it more difficult for international aid organizations to operate inside yemen and make it more difficult for houthi leaders to travel and engage in international finance and things like that. they said that they will not be deterred and they will continue their attacks and harassment in the red sea. in terms of the deal between israel and hamas, the a deal that has been a long time coming to get medicine, medicine in this case, supplied by france into gaza in order to get that medicine to hostages, but also to get it to the people of gaza, and the agreement was for everybody box of medicine and the israeli government sent a

very specific list of medications that the hostages require that the qataris which is related to france, for every one box for the hostages, a thousand boxes go to the palestinian people and those boxes have arrived at the border. there are inspe inspections tha being carried out and the hope is that it will be in full swing by tomorrow morning. >> i'm sure it needs to be getting there pretty fast. richard engel, thank you very much. that's going to do it for me today. "deadline: white house" starts right ♪♪ ♪♪ hi, everyone. it is 4:00 here in new york. i'm alicia menendez in for nicole wallace. right now an extraordinary moment unfolding in a courthouse, with trump a few feet away from her e. jean carroll is on the