i don't know that's a winning argument for getting back in office. again, this is the problem with trump's grip on the party, is there really is no one to say, like, perhaps this is not the greatest plan to win re-election. >> it might scare off just enough independent voters. now it's up to the democrats to turn out their own base. great analysis as always from special correspondent of "vanity fair" molly jong-fast. thanks to all of you for getting up "way too early" on this friday morning and all week long. have a great weekend, everyone. "morning joe" starts right now. the president of the united states -- and i'm not talking about myself, i'm talking about any president -- has to have immunity. if you take immunity away from the president, so important, you will have a president that's not going to be able to do anything. because when he leaves office, the opposing party, if it is the opposing party, will indict the president for doing something that should have been good. like obama dropped missiles, an

kindergarten, apartment or school, and a lot of people were killed. if that is the case, he'll be indicted. he meant well. the missile went in the wrong direction, and other things. >> and other things. there's so much, willie, wrong with that. >> wait, what president? he's talking about obama. >> first of all, we have to get the -- we'll get to the hitler stuff in a second. >> okay. >> let's start, though, with -- >> i'll make a chart. >> -- with the fact that donald trump is not well. we know this. this guy, he is looking so old. he is shuffling around. he really does think that barack obama is still president of the united states. he's going through this thing, and then about why he should have total immunity. total immunity even when he crosses the line.

right? this is the seal team six can assassin think it was this morning, i tweeted out, "what do trump supporters say who believe seal team six can assassinate political rivals? what if someone says, well, joe biden could order seal team six this morning to assassinate donald trump"? he would be immune by donald trump's arguments. it is pure, sheer authoritarianism and tyranny. so we have that part of it. it is trump at his most dangerous but also trump at his most detached from reality. he is really losing it. we've been getting glimpses now of him shuffling around and looking lost and getting up on

stage, talking about world war ii, talking about president obama. here, he did it again and said, "listen, president obama may have bombed kindergartens, but he was trying to do good things. when he leaves office, when he leaves office, he could face a conviction." it's crazy. >> well, donald trump was on stage two nights ago bragging about how he passed the rudimentary dementia test again. very proud of that again, leaning into it. obsessed with barack obama again. it's always top of mind. sometimes he seems like he is running against barack obama, and sometimes he says it out loud. to your deeper point about the immunity question, he's saying, well, any president then could prosecute the previous president. first of all. >> yes. >> it's the justice department, not the president. we've said that a million times.

second of all, if the president breaks laws, if the president commits a coup or takes secrets back to his beach club or meddles in the georgia election, or is found liable for sexual assault, yeah, that guy might be prosecuted. we like to think our presidents wouldn't do any of those things. this is a unique case that donald trump is trying to make a rule to keep himself out of jail, that he says would apply to all other presidents. >> let's bring in eugene robinson. gene, this is, again, donald trump once again detached from reality. again, thinking that, you know, world war ii is upon us and he is running against barack hussein obama. that's one part of it. we've seen images of him over the past couple weeks. he's just not doing well, it doesn't seem, physically. then there is the second part of it, and that is, donald trump --

this was donald trump's closing statement. like, poor sean hannity. >> yup. >> sean hannity is like a dad that gets a baseball, and he puts it on a tee. he goes, come on, johnny, hit the tee. johnny keeps hitting his hand. >> yeah. >> sean hannity has placed more balls on tees, only to hear barack obama's name came up time and time again. he, other fox news hosts, have to correct donald trump and go, "no, you're running against joe biden." so let's put that on one side. on the other side, you've got a former president who republicans look like they're going to nominate, who is saying, "i really could get seal team six to assassinate my political opponents, and i have to have immunity." hannity goes, what is your closing statement for the voters? it's, "i need total immunity from everything, even when i cross the line."

>> yeah, absolutely. you know, it's funny because i had that same thought about, poor sean hannity. i don't often feel sorry for sean hannity, but i did because he had just absolutely teed up the ball, and donald trump, you know, hits the lamp on the table or whatever. it's ridiculous. what more can he do? you know, the thing about donald trump, of course, is that he is pure id in the freudian sense. he blurts out whatever is on his mind, so you know. what's on his mind is trying to stay out of jail. you can tell from the recent appearances how worried he is that he is going to go to jail. he is going to have to pay massive, massive fines in all these various cases. who knows how much he'll have to pay to e. jean carroll?

he'll going to have consequences for his actions, not just over his presidency, over his long and -- his long life in which he crosses the line all the time. he is all about crossing the line. he is so worried that he's going to have to go to jail, that this is what he is thinking about more than he is thinking about the campaign, more than anything else. he wants to stay out of jail. >> jonathan lemire, i mean, we've said it since 2019. let me say that again. we've been saying this for four years. if donald trump loses in 2020, he'll run again. why? only because he wants to stay out of jail. that's the entire purpose of his campaign. we've been saying that for four years. when people were saying, will donald trump run? joe, do you really think trump will -- i go, "yes, he is." you know, he loves money. if he could cash in and make the money, he would. but right now, he's only focused

on staying out of jail so of course he is going to run again. here, because trump has lost so many steps. you know, we always talk about how long we've known him. reverend al, how long we've known him. we've known him a long time. >> yes, we have. >> guy i'm watching now, that guy hasn't lost one step. the guy lost five, six, seven steps, and he still thinks he is running against barack obama. and so, i mean, he's shuffling around. really, seriously, i think it is going to be harder and harder for the campaign to manage this guy who, it's just my opinion, looks like he is in a serious state of decline and seriously is so confused. he's still thinking about the guy that he started the birther consracy theory about back in 2011. still on his mind. can't let it go. doesn't seem to be in a very

good state at all, just freaked out about immunity. immunity even when seal team six kills his political opponents. >> yeah, i was a metra reporter with the new york daily news and covered trump from time to time 15, 20 years ago, and it is very clear, he's not the same guy he was then. that post about presidential immunity also had the great trump tell of this era, which is when he goes to all caps. when he goes to all caps, and it is an all caps creed, usually is him being anxious.caments, it he was messaging about e. jean carroll. then he said this, to have the full immunity, even for events that cross the line. this is something that feels like not only a, of course, scary projection of what could come in a second trump term, where he would say, "i can do whatever i want and can't be

prosecuted." >> jonathan, guess what? >> believe him. >> yeah, first of all, believe him. >> this will happen. >> it'll happen if he gets elected again. jonathan, that's also, you know -- heilemann says everything he says is either projection or confession. >> there's both. >> there is confession when he says, "i crossed the line." >> yeah. >> "you have to give me immunity. i know i've crossed the line. i know that if america's rule of law plays out the way it's supposed to, i'm going to spend the rest of my life in jail." that's what the meltdown is all about. >> yeah, i didn't invoke heilemann's name for fear he'd suddenly show up here, which we don't want, but, certainly, confession, it is projection and confession. >> exactly. >> this is projection of what a second trump term will be like, but it is a confession to what already happened in the first term. he needs the immunity. he knows he broke the law. he crossed the line in any number of cases. not sure which one he was freaked about right now.

willie, we can't say this enough. his spin last night on fox was, "hey, i'm not just asking for total immunity for me. i'm doing it for all presidents." well, the previous 44 presidents, they didn't need it. none of them had ever faced criminal charges before. this applies solely to donald trump. >> you don't need immunity if you don't attempt to lead a coup against the united states government or take classified documents back to your beach club. let's bring into the conversation legal analyst andrew weissmann. andrew, let's talk about this question of immunity in the courts. it was just last week that that three-judge panel on the federal appeals court sounded very skeptical of the president's claim and his attorney's claim that he deserved full immunity in the federal case about the 2020 election. where does that stand? based on what we heard in court, how do you suspect the judges will rule? >> well, i think there is no question they're going to rule against donald trump, and i don't think that his recent tweet to the extent that it

comes to their attention is going to help. in terms of donald trump's strategy of saying something that outlandish, it really does not help in terms of the court looking and realizing what they're being asked to do is going to be acted on by this man. so, strategically, it is a terrible idea. i think there's no way on god's green eart that this panel is going to find that he is immune from criminal prosecution. that has never been the law, and it is not going to be the law. when they will rule, no one knows. i mean, there's a lot of people who think it is going to come down on a friday. we could be getting it any moment. then one quick thought about this discussion, pause i don't think that the courts are going to grant immunity, but just remember, donald trump becomes president, he will use his

pardon power to, in effect, do what he is saying he would do if he can't get the courts to give him total immunity, which is that he can use the pardon power to pardon people who commit crimes, including crimes for him, as he has said with respect to the january 6th people who he is now terming that they were hostages and not actually criminal defendants. so it's worth keeping an eye out for how other powers that he could have if he becomes president will be used in a way that gets him to the same end result. >> all right. e. jean carroll returned to the witness stand for the third day of the defamations trial against donald trump, although trump was not in court due to his mother-in-law's funeral. his presence was certainly felt in the form of a video played for the jury. carroll's attorney played a clip from trump's remarks at a press

conference on wednesday, attempting to show how the former president continues to defame carroll. during cross-examination, trump attorney alina habba questioned carroll about her current income from her blog and seems to attribute carroll's increase in earnings to the, quote, fame that she has received because of her connection to trump. >> you mean fame because -- >> that is so sick. >> -- she got raped by trump, according to the judge. >> added twist, from a female attorney. carroll admitted she is more well-known after writing about the abuse, but added she is also hated by a lot more people. the former president is expected to be back in court when the trial resumes on monday, where he may or may not take the stand. >> what do you think about that, mika? >> first of all, i think that, through this trial, you really are reminded what a vile, disgusting person donald trump is. >> right. >> you watch the deposition with

e. jean carroll's attorney and how vile and disgusting he is in that deposition. what he thinks about women. how he views them as sort of objects, sex toys. literally so unbelievably misogynistic and rude, that you wouldn't have this person at your dinner table. >> yeah. >> you would not let your kids act this way. >> right. >> you would not want anybody in your life to act this way. yet, it's unbelievable, so many people still support him. >> remember, this is, just to be specific, this is the deposition where he said e. jean carroll wasn't his type. then he attacked e. jean carroll's attorney and said, "well, you're not my type at all either." then he talked about how, throughout history, powerful men have been able to do whatever they want, "access hollywood" style, with women. he said, then he goes, "you know, maybe it's for the good, or maybe not, i don't know," but

suggesting that sexual assault, if you're powerful, may be okay. >> is okay. i show a lot of that deposition on "morning mika." andrew weissmann, where does this go if he shows up, if he testifies? what do you expect? >> e. jean carroll has not finished putting on her case, so we expect on monday that there will be some more testimony. what happened yesterday is that she finished testifying. she was on cross-examination and then redirect. there was also an expert talking about reputational damage. that's one aspect of the damages that she is seeking. obviously, she's also seeking punitive damages, and that's where the clip that you referenced was played, to show that if you're trying to figure out how to make him stop, it is relevant for the jury to have heard that he is continuing to,

as e. jean carroll says, to defame her to this day. so there was something very surreal in court about hearing sort of -- you know, you could barely catch up with the defamation in court. then we'll see next week, early next week, after the plaintiff, e. jean carroll, rests, whether donald trump takes the stand. it's very hard to see that he will because, remember, in this case, it is only about damages. liability has been found as a matter of law because donald trump has had his day in court already and lost. a jury found that he, in fact, sexually assaulted and defamed e. jean carroll. so there is a victim in this case, and it is e. jean carroll. not donald trump. it remains to be seen whether he testifies and what he could possibly testify to with respect to damages. >> jean robinson, we are just in

the very early stages of a long year in a lot of different courtrooms likely for donald trump. >> yeah. >> already, as you watch, none of them is going particularly well, by the way. as andrew just said, it is unlikely his immunity claims will hold up before the federal appeals panel. we're hearing about all of his grotesque behavior with e. jean carroll, his behavior inside the courtroom, toddler like, pounding the table, being admonished by the judge. what's your sense of, as he tries to run for re-election and spends almost every waking moment talking about himself, talking about the past, talking about how he has to keep himself out of jail, about how, as this accumulates over the course of a year, how it'll play in a presidential election? >> look, if he's at this state at this point of the campaign, who knows how over the top crazed he will be as we get more -- as we get closer to the election. i mean, it gets worse and worse

and worse. the only case that is going in any way more favorably to trump is arguably the documents case where judge cannon has issued favorable rulings that might delay that trial, potentially until after the election, i would think. so i think trump would like that, although, the evidence in that case, in the end, is absolutely slam dunk. but the e. jean carroll case, i mean, you know, with trump, it is -- money is always front of mind. he is really worried about this case. you know, he bothered to go in the courtroom and put on a show, and that's not all political. i think he's really worried about the money. i had a question for andrew weissmann, which is, okay, so this phase of the trial is about the money. let's say that the jury decides that actual damages to e. jean

carroll, we hear a figure of $12 million. let's say they say it is $15 million, $20 million, whatever the actual damages are. don't courts have kind of a rule of thumb about the ratio of punitive damages to actual damages? i'm worried about how high the jury could go in terms of punitive damages, especially since trump has continued to defame e. jean carroll, even in the trial, even as the trial is going on. the question was asked, how much money will it take to make him stop? how high could the jury go and stay within judge kaplan's ratio? >> so there's sort of two separate components to that. the jury with respect to compensatory and punitive damages will really have no limit, particularly with respect to punitive damages.

compensatory damages, the plaintiff has sought at least $10 million. yesterday, an expert said that just one part of compensatory damages should be between $7 million and $12 million to repair her reputation. then again, there's also emotional damages. that's just the amount that you suffer when you're defamed by the then sitting president of the united states. there is no limit that's going to be given to the jury in deciding the punitive damages, so they can come up with any award they want. the way to think about this is when ruby freeman and shaye moss sued giuliani last month, the jury could come up with any number they wanted. if it is viewed by the court as

so beyond the pale, there is a way for the court to reduce it. here, it'd be very hard for donald trump to win that kind of argument. obviously, we have to see what the number is, but it is because the issue is, you usually do not have the person who is defamd, the plaintiff, continuing to do it. so you have continuing harm. the point of punitive damages is to get the person to stop, to punish them for their behavior. if they are continuing, it's hard for that person to say, "reduce the award." >> joe and mika, we're focused on the wise analysis andrew is bringing us on all of this, but it has to be said what the viewers are thinking, nobody, and i mean nobody, gives you a better morning backdrop than andrew weissmann. the beautiful art, the duplex staircase, it's all there. >> liking it, andrew. >> it really is great. much better than when i go on

zoom and you tell me, you know, pick your closet. >> there's your guitar. >> you can be in your guitar closet, or you can be in your sock and underwear and -shirt closet. i actually only have one closet. but look at andrew, it is beautiful. >> fabulous. >> andrew weissmann, we thank you for all of that and more. thanks for being with us, andrew. mika, i want to follow up on something that gene said. he talked about how donald trump really was in that courtroom with e. jean carroll because there's money on the line. money, at the end of the day, is what trump has always cared about the most. that's also something you pointed out about the new york fraud case. >> yeah. >> he was in there every day for a reason, because maybe he's going to have to pay money that he doesn't have. >> well, and in terms of the felony charges against him, the

indictments, you know, he's hoping to put those off by running for president. he runs from jail time. but in these cases, that could impact him now. that could impact his bottom line. that could cost him. i think, though, to andrew's point, the fact that they can come up with any number for e. jean carroll, and he continues to mumble and grumble in the courtroom, defaming her in the courtroom, saying things that are not true in the courtroom, speaking back to the judge, i mean, the man is not helping himself. i feel sorry for his attorneys, though i don't know who would be his attorney at this point. his behavior is beyond despicable. anybody who acted this way would be thrown out of any room, except for donald trump. >> right. he keeps losing attorneys, and he does really, despite what he and his followers say, i mean, he's such a snowflake, he lives by a different standard than

anybody else. he does. >> he hates being held to account by women. >> time and again, time and again, donald trump does things in court that would get anybody else thrown in jail for contempt. anybody else. he still is above the law. he still lives by his own rules. he still doesn't believe, for good reason, for good reason, that he's never going to have to face the music. not because he is going to win the election but because judges are scared of him. they don't do -- again, they don't do what any other judge would do to any other defendant when they have those outbursts. >> yeah. >> they'd warn them, and then they'd send them straight to jail for contempt. doesn't happen here. >> which makes e. jean carroll even more impressive. an 80-year-old woman who has decided, you know what? if i have to be -- like women, if no one is going to do it, i'll do it. she's stepping up, and she's holding him to account.

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attacked to ukraine aid. we have meaningful policy, you want russia to win more than border policy changes? that's tough to defend. some say, it helps biden. it is helping him politically. okay. i want border security. that's what i told my constituents i would do for them. if we can get the deal, it's a no-brainer. >> spoken like a true conservative, actually. spoken like a true conservative. what do i always say? i'm open to converts. i don't care why. i don't care why they come. >> we'll get you there. >> you know what? gene robinson is from south carolina. he grew up in the church like me. preachers, they don't care what got you to the baptismal area. >> no. >> they just are glad you're there. but here's dan crenshaw speaking the truth, saying, saying, it's

bizarre. we republicans have been pushing for border security for years. and we have a democratic president and a republican senate that's going to give it to us. and now, we hate ukraine more than we like border security. gene, let's underline today for our friends who may not have been watching yesterday -- though we know everybody watches four hours every day -- it is important to remember, we have a speaker of the house that has taken the pro-putin line in every vote on ukraine aid. >> yeah. >> every time he gave aid and comfort to vladimir putin by voting against aid for ukraine to push back the russian invaders. so here's crenshaw saying, "wait, do we really like vladimir putin so much that we're going to give up the best

border deal we will ever get?" that's what republicans are saying. the best border deal we will ever get. >> yeah, senate republicans have pointed out, mitch mcconnell, thune, and others have pointed out, they will never get this deal. even if republicans were to take the presidency in both houses of congress, they would still need 60 votes in the senate to pass a deal, and they wouldn't get it. this is the best they're going to get. yet, they will not take yes for an answer because they think donald trump -- or they know donald trump doesn't want them to, so they're saying no. let's talk about mike johnson for a minute. you know, mike johnson is the speaker of the house, right? he's not just the representative of his district in louisiana. he is the third ranking official in our government. he has a broader duty to the

country. the united states has made commitments. it's made a commitment of this ukraine aid, and that commitment has to be fulfilled. i remember back when nancy pelosi first became speaker of the house under george w. bush. the iraq war needed to be funded. a bill had to be passed to fund the iraq war. she was against the iraq war by then. her entire democratic caucus, which controlled the house, was against the iraq war. but she knew it had to be done. she couldn't leave the troops hanging. she had to fulfill u.s. commitments, and so she split it up. split up the funding bill into a couple pieces. one piece, all her caucus could get to vote, "we hate the war." on the other piece, they and republicans, and she can count so she got the number of votes she needed, would pass the money. so she did it.

she didn't do it because she wanted to or liked to do it, it was her duty as speaker of the house. i wonder what job mike johnson thinks he has now. >> yeah. >> but he needs to understand that he has broader responsibilities, and these include fulfilling u.s. commitments overseas. >> right. they do. just think about that for a second. you have nancy pelosi. i will say, even though it drove me crazy and i helped, like, run him out of the speakership, time and again, newt gingrich was faced with things he didn't want to do. things that he was against. just like you're saying, gene, just like nancy pelosi, gingrich and other speakers that i saw up close were like, "this is our responsibility. we don't like it. we can try to make a change by voting, but, yes, we've got to keep america's commitment at

home and across the globe." here you have -- willie, you wonder what dan crenshaw and mike mccaul and other people who actually support freedom in europe, support freedom across the west, want to see the russian invaders pushed back or at least held where they are so putin can't march into kyiv, you wonder what they're thinking when they see senate republicans working their tails off on a bipartisan package that would increase border security and push putin back. but they're facing opposition from this speaker who, instead of -- >> a republican. >> a republican who, instead of worrying about america's commitments across the globe and freedom in europe and freedom across the west, he's concerned about three or four back

benchers. also, he's getting calls from whom? donald trump. who is telling him, "reject it." >> bingo. >> crazy. >> donald trump is running the operation, telling the speaker what to do. by the way, listening to that sound bite from congressman crenshaw, i haven't heard anybody put it more concisely. by the way, dan crenshaw is an actual patriot. there are a lot of people running around calling themselves patriots. a guy who served the country and gave his eye and earned a purple heart. a guy who cares about the country saying effectively, "i don't care if somebody looks at this as a win for joe biden or whatever political question you want to lay over this. i want border security. we have in front of us a border security deal. take the deal," he's saying. he also folded in the question of russia and their aggression and backing ukraine. to your point, there is a deal. there is a deal to be had in the senate. the question is whether the house will take it. this is senator thom tillis of north carolina, republican, been

involved in the negotiations on the senate side, reacting to the revelation that donald trump is, in fact, working behind the scenes to torpedo the senate deal. >> you know, i respectfully disagree with the president. i mean, he could not have possibly seen what we are negotiating. i'll reserve judgment on that after it has been made public, but i think what james langford has done is good work and we should support it. when the bill is released, and everyone, particularly conservatives and president trump, sees the tools that will be available to a president trump, should he win the election, to lose this opportunity, to get it passed into law i think is malpractice. >> total malpractice. >> it is. i mean, this is what they've been trying to get. >> for years. >> they will not get anything bet better, not even in a future trump presidency. >> it looks so bad for them. they're idiots if they don't think this is going to blow up

in their face in the election. here you have house republicans fighting against lindsey graham, fighting against john thune, fighting against james langford, fighting against dan crenshaw, fighting against some of the most conservative republicans on capitol hill, trying to stop a border security bill, the best border security bill ever. at the same time, we have a continuing border security crisis. jonathan lemire, they are going to try to impeach mayorkas for a lack of border security. at the same time, they're listening to donald trump and killing what the most conservative republicans in the senate are saying is the best border security bill we've ever had, and it is the best -- as

john thune said yesterday, it's the best security deal for the border we will ever get. they're willing to push that to the side, to let putin move into ukraine, all because they're afraid it might help joe biden. >> or something more, they want to help trump. >> or they want to help trump and putin. >> no question. we've heard it from republican senators saying, look, even if republicans win everything back next year and have total control of d.c. in 2025, they won't get as good a deal as this one. the democrats will fight them tooth and nail. president biden in his meeting this week signalled to the republican leadership, i'm willing to do a deal. we need tough border security. i'm willing to do this for the good of the country. that's not what some of the republicans in the house, and seemingly speaker johnson, are focused on. they're focused on not governing but politics. they refuse to let joe biden get anything that could be a win.

and trump doesn't want this border security to be taken away as a campaign issue, so, therefore, looks like mike johnson doesn't want to give that deal. trump, as we know, is famously very friendly to putin and doesn't want the u.s. to continue to arm ukraine like it has to this point. therefore, that funding piece of it is also in jeopardy. let's recall, the entire effort to impeach joe biden, to launch that impeachment inquiry, is because donald trump told his republican allies on the hill he didn't want to be the only candidate this november to have been impeached. so it is all politics. it's all trump. they're all examples of how he controls their party, and they're willing to do his bidding. >> the problem is, i just -- how do i say that they're being stupid politely? >> well, you just did. >> what they're doing is, because i talked to senators on the hill yesterday, talked to

people, well, across washington about this. if the house rejects this, they're setting themselves up for a massive loss, and they're going to make joe biden look like a bigger hero. they have -- they have two choices. gene, you're talking about this right now. they have two choices. they can either be part of this deal, or they can be run over by joe biden taking executive action, taking emergency action. >> exactly. >> using the senate bill as the blueprint. it is a bipartisan emergency action that they can use to implement these policies, and it's the house republicans who get run over and who are the only losers who aren't part of this deal. >> that's right.

so let's assume that that happens, that joe biden takes executive action, tough executive action on the border. what are the house republicans going to do then? they're going to blast him and slam him for doing exactly what they have said should be done for years and years and years. it is just ridiculous, the position they have put themselves in. yet, they won't budge. you know, look, i realize that mike johnson has this small majority and he's got the marjorie taylor greenes and the troy nehls and the chip roys of the world to worry about, but, you know, that's his job. he's not helping. he's not making it better. he needs to be out in front saying this deal has to be made. as long as he's not, you know, he's not helping his party here.

he's certainly not helping the country. >> yeah. willie, you -- you're an avengers fan, right? you saw "end game," right? >> i did see "end game," sure. >> good. so you understand, if dr. strange had shown up at the white house six months ago, and joe biden's aides had said, "hey, how do we end up looking good on border security?" dr. strange would say, "you have a one in 14 million 578 chance of looking good on border security. just one out of 14 million plus," as dr. strange said. we're here. >> here it is. and he hit the number. he somehow hit the number. >> we're here. at this point, this is where dr. strange holds up his finger and says, "this is the time, tony stark." if the house republicans get in

your way and vote no, you get to declare an emergency and use the republican bill in the senate and go on tv and say, "the situation at the border is so dangerous that republicans and democrats have come together in the senate and they have told me this is what needs to be done. i will do it." but because the house republicans are standing in the way, i mean, it's the tony stark moment. biden gets to act tough and decisive on the border because the people in the house, republicans, are standing in his way. that's the 1 in 14 million chance, and it's the house republicans giving it to him. >> i don't know who tony stark is -- >> oh, please. >> -- but biden can say, "hold my beer." >> mika, you do know who tony stark is. come on, robert downey jr.

win the oscar. >> i have to get -- i need an ekg. i'm about to default. >> clear, get the paddles out. >> come on. >> get the paddles out. >> go on, willie. >> let's get more insight from capitol hill correspondent julie sorkin, covering every twist and turn here. good morning. so we're hearing more and more senate republicans saying, guys in the house, this is as good as it gets. we actually have a deal that we can live with, that we think actually favors our view of how immigration should be approached and addressed. take the deal. and you have speaker johnson saying, well, i don't know. we don't want to give joe biden a win. and saying openly on fox news, "yes, i talk to donald trump quite frequently," confirming the suspicions that they are living in fear of donald trump and he, in fact, the pulling the strings behind the scenes. so what is your sense of this dynamic and whether the house may change its tact and actually listen to thom tillis, to james

langford, to the republicans in the senate saying, "take the deal"? >> we know why the border negotiators were working so hard in december to try to seal a deal before the end of the year, because they knew the moment the threshold skipped over to 2024, the moment it became an election year, they'd have to deal with donald trump on the campaign trail not wanting to give the president a win, just like you've been talking about. dan crenshaw, he is a border state republican. some of the hard liners, most of the hard liners in the house who are railing against this deal, who are fighting tooth and nail and moving the goalpost, by the way, originally saying they want it linked to ukraine, and now linked to spender, they don't have skin in the game. you have top senate republicans from john thune, cornyn, mcconnell, they're not looking to protect johnson here like maybe they would have with kevin

mccarthy. he's dealt with political issues. they'd often say, the house is the house. they'll figure it out. now, they're throwing johnson under the bus because they know that they have to get the deal passed. they know they have to get it to the house. then he will have a political problem looking at this deal that can solve the problem and looking at trump and the other side who clearly is doing this for political purposes. thom tillis, last week, he told me it'd be immoral of republicans in the house, he used that word, to vote against this deal, something they've been talking about for months and months and months, if not years. you have todd young yesterday, mike round, certainly no fans of former trump, but i asked todd young, to you think trump's goal is to kill this deal for his political gain? he said, that is exactly what he seems to be doing. there is no surprises about that. i do kind this really interesting. i also kind it interesting from the democratic perspective, the progressives and hispanic lawmakers. they want to vote for ukraine,

aid to taiwan, israel, gaza, but they don't want elements of this border deal. you're really looking at something in the senate that will shape up to have 25 republicans, 35 democrats. this isn't something where it is 50 democrats and 10 republicans. this is going to be as bipartisan as it gets. by the way, the most conservative border deal in half century. >> capitol hill correspondent julie tsirkin, thank you so much for your reporting this morning. coming up on "morning joe," "morning joe" economic analyst steve rattner is at the southwest wall with charts. before we go to break, i'm happy to announce that we have posted the first episode of "morning mika." >> know how many times i've seen it already? four times. >> okay. >> it is really great. i loved it. this is amazing. >> this is my series on youtube and peacock featuring weekly conversations with jen psaki, huma abedin, and symone sanders.

>> so great. >> we tackle donald trump's misogyny and the dangerous impact his views on women have on policy. plus, a special announcement surrounding the upcoming "forbes" and know your value summit in abu dhabi. search "morning mika" on youtube and streaming on peacock. we'll be right back. here's to getting better with age. here's to beating these two every thursday. help fuel today with boost high protein, complete nutrition you need... ...without the stuff you don't. so, here's to now. boost.

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wow. an ominous shot of the capitol. >> that is kind of ominous. >> it is. there's a lot going on in there. >> well, there is. you know, you've got a speaker who is doing donald trump's

bidding. >> or putin. >> and vladimir putin's bidding. whether you say it directly or not -- >> he is. >> -- if you are standing in the way of the majority of your members and the majority of the senate and the majority of americans -- >> and everything you could ever get. >> -- and who want vladimir putin to be pushed back and who want border security at the southern border, and you are the speaker that is stopping that, whoa, nelly. whoa, nelly! that one's not going to end up well. >> someone's priorities are not with the us of a. one thing congress did yet is narrowly avoid a government shutdown. >> kicked the can down the road. >> they left immigration policy and budgets to be left to deal with over the next six weeks. >> we have a national debt

that's $33 trillion? when i ran for congress in '94, 30 years ago, i was railing against a $4 trillion debt. $4 trillion debt. as i said before, we balanced the budget four years in a you row, and everybody told us it was impossible. bill clinton said, "you can't balance the budget without wrecking the economy." "the washington post," "the new york times" all said, "you can't balance the budget without wrecking the economy and throwing people out on the streets." balanced the budget four years in a row. bill clinton followed along. not only that, the economy grew. and it prospered. now, i'm not saying with a $33 trillion, $34 trillion debt, we can balance the budget in the next three or four years. but we have to start down that path. all we have are people in both parties kicking the can down the

road. they have been doing it since 2001. i must say, you add up republican debt and democratic debt, republican debt is so much worse. the biggest defender, and i think nikki haley is talking about this, ron desantis is talking about it, i just don't think republicans care anymore. they're not fiscally responsible. i guess they want to elect an authoritarian who wants total power, total immunity. but there are republican candidates talking about moving towards a balanced budget. rational spending at the federal level. but not donald trump. >> no, donald trump's administration in just four years added nearly $8 trillion to the debt. $8 trillion. now, since he's left office, many of the republicans who went along for the ride in that and the massive tax cuts are now finding their debt and deficit hawkishness again that joe biden is in the white house. funny how that happens.

let's talk with former treasury official, "morning joe" economic analyst steve rattner. good morning. want to get to your charts in a minute but want you to weigh in on this question of debt. obviously, donald trump added almost $8 trillion to it. continues, though not at that rate, under president biden. is there any serious conversation about bringing that number down? do you see any urgency in the congress on this? >> not a bit, willie. in fact, as we're going to talk about in a minute, there are bills that are going to be in front of congress, the supplemental and the debt deal, that actually be add to the debt, add to the deficit and add to the debt. no, there's nothing serious going on. republicans just want to cut taxes, cut spending. the democrats would actually be more constructive but they're not in charge at the moment in the house of representatives. so, no, i think that $34 trillion is just going to -- it'll be a $2 trillion deficit in the current fiscal year and going to keep going from there, absent some other crisis that forces the congress to deal with it. >> all right. let's talk about your charts. start with the first one right

behind you there. slim majority, slow congress. we've talked about how historically unproductive this congress has been. what are you looking at there on the chart? >> you've been talking about it so i thought i'd bring some charts and some numbers to put some facts behind it. the republicans have the smallest majority, actually, i think in history at the moment. they have just two seats. they started with four. george santos leave. you had kevin mccarthy leave. they're down to two seats. the consequence of that is that they have passed the fewest number of bills in modern history in their first year. they've passed just 24 bills. you can see what went on here in the past. dramatic drop-off. you know, it always wasn't us. this gets back to what joe was talking about, the debt and deficit. in '99 and 2000, they also had a small majority. you can see here, they actually passed a lot of legislation. as joe said, they dealt with the debt. we had a surplus. we got a lot of legislation

passed. congress could function. but it is really a problem within the republican party. they can't function. mike johnson does not have control over the far right, as we're going to talk about further in a minute, so it is all stalled. it is ironic because the senate was supposed to be the ones who were slow, and the house was supposed to be the ones who were fast. the senate's job, as it was famously said, was to cool the hot tea of the house. now, it's the other way around. legislation like this deal that james langford is working on with the democrats is coming out of the senate, and the house is sitting there essentially doing almost nothing. >> as we move to your next chart, steve, it's illustrative of what you're talking about here, this is, the inability to get anything done, including a budget, which used to be not such a difficult task. now, we live moment to moment, almost month to month trying to pass these emergency pu budgets avoid government shutdowns. >> when republicans took over the house, they'll say, regular

order, we'll have a budget. the year starts on october 1. middle of january, no budget. there are a bunch of continuing resolutions. one passed last night to avert a government shutdown tonight. that's how close it came. it was only passed because the democrats ordered it. johnson barely got one above a majority of his caucus, half of his caucus voted against this deal. but it is a stopgap measure, as you pointed out, and takes us to about the 1st of march. between now and then, they have to deal with it. let's talk about what's at stake there. so biden originally proposed $67 billion of more spending for the current fiscal year. kevin mccarthy made a deal with him before he was kicked out and essentially federal spending would not go up. chuck schumer renegotiated the deal with mike johnson. while the numbers sort of are the same, in fact, mike johnson got one thing that's important. he got -- to him anyway -- he

got a further cut in irs spending from $10 billion to $20 billion. now, the irony of this is cutting irs spending increases the deficit, as this start shows. the government collects more than $1 from taxpayers who are not filing their taxes properly. for every $1 we spend on more irs agents to do the audits. the republicans who claim they want to cut the deficit are increasing it because they're trying to give americans more loopholes to not pay taxes. >> unbelievable. >> the other issue that johnson is going to face is the fact that his far right caucus wants $58 billion of spending cuts. it's not at all clear they'll vote for any clear johnson makes. he's going to have to go to the democrats to pass this thing if and when we ever get to it because of the immigration issue, which we'll get to in a second. we'll have to go to the democrats, and it'll be interesting to see how all that unfolds. of course, the question is how long does johnson survive with awe cause that doesn't support

him when he makes a deal? >> let's slide along the wall to the next chart on immigration. this is the question being debated as we speak in the congress. the senate says they're close to a bipartisan deal. the house won't take a good deal it appears because donald trump said not to give joe biden a win. what is shown in your chart? >> we have had a big surge in what are called encounters at the border. 2.6 million a year. this is about 2.6 million a year. let's be clear, these are not people who are sneaking across the border and disappearing into america to become illegal immigrants. these are people, as i'll talk about in one second, who actually are in the hands of our customs and border patrol and going through the system. this group at the bottom are the got aways, the ones who sneak across the border and disappear

into our system. the consequence of that, almost 90% of the people who try to cross the border end up in the hands of the border and customs. this number has come down substantially because of complicated reasons that i'll spare you. last year, 2.6 million of them ended up in the hands of customs and border patrol, as you can see here. either by coming across through a port of entry or coming across somewhere else. many of them turn themselves into border patrol because they want to go through the system. they'll claim asylum. here's the problem. the problem is, they end up in our court system. 1.5 million of them came across the border. they were apprehended, processed, and they were given what's called a notice to appear before an immigration court and begin their hearings. but it hasn't happened. it's because we have this huge backlog. why do we have this huge backlog? because congress has not funded,

ironically, and this is why we need the bill, congress has not funded the whole immigration court system sufficiently to process all these folks. the other thing most people probably don't know is that 850,000 of them actually left. some of them voluntarily, some of them were sent back. out of the 2 22.6 million, 850, just went back. 300,000 got parole, which is a humanitarian process for people coming from places like haiti and cuba, venezuela, where there's essentially failed state. but our court system is so messed up, that of all the 2.6 million people, fewer than 300,000 actually got relief at the end of the process. so we need to pass this immigration bill to get this problem solved. >> we do. and republicans are obviously pushing the white house to reform the parole side of that. i suspect they probably will. lindsey graham, who supports this bill, has said it is

critical that they come to a negotiated settlement there. i suspect they will. steve, thanks for those charts. i want to remind our viewers that you're talking about how bad the deficit is, how bad the debt is, and how badly donald trump added to that. record setting deficits. record setting debt. i want to remind everybody that, i guess it was ten years ago, while barack obama was president of the united states, you and a group of ceos and other business leaders took out full page ads, did everything you could to warn of the coming debt explosion. washington just won't listen. like, this is -- this is -- reminds me of trying to explain to liberal economists -- and i

know you did the same thing -- about the warnings about inflation. liberal economists kept saying, "oh, it's never happened. it's not going to happen." when it did happen, they said, "it's transitory. don't worry about it." guess what? your warnings, my warnings, other people's warnings about massive spending leading to deficits -- or leading to inflation happened. this national debt is so much worse. yeah, it hasn't severely impacted us, but what happens, steve, when it does? when the bill comes due? >> yeah. look, there's two terrible scenarios out there, one of which will almost certainly unfold, and one of which we have to see. the second of these is the financial markets. at what point do the financial markets wake up and say, $34 trillion of debt, $2 trillion of deficits every year, adding to that debt as far as the eye can

see, at what point do the markets say, we're not going to let you finance this at 4% anymore. we want 8%, 10%, 12% interest rates. we'll see how that unfolds. the one we know is going to happen is that, eventually, this is going to have to be debt that's dealt with. the interest payments make it more difficult to find the spending money we need for the other critical needs. at some point, this is going to affect social security, medicare, and all kinds of things that americans feel essential. because the cost of servicing this debt, the interest costs are going to squeeze out all kinds of other spending that we badly need to maintain and we'll have to increase as our society gets older. >> all right. steve rattner, thank you very much once again. donald trump continues to call for total presidential immunity under any and all circumstances. on social media yesterday morning, trump wrote tha presidents should be safe from legal osution, even for

things that, quote, cross the line. >> that's everything. that's a follow-up to his own lawyers saying, yes, donald truo assassinate his political o' op opponents. >> remember, we have learned that when he says something, you can believe him. then last night whe asked on fox news aut his closing message to new hampshire voters -- closing -- >> this is it. >> this is his final saying. >> what i can offer you. >> why do new hampshire voters need to vote for donald trump? >> trump used the question as a chance to once again discuss his own legal troubles. >> what is your closing message to the people of new hampshire? >> it's very simple, it's make america great again. but i think very important, before we do this, because you were talking about the supreme court, they have two votes that are very important coming up. the president of the united states, and i'm not talking about myself, i'm talking about any president, has to have

immunity. because if you take immunity away from the president, so important, you will have a president that's not going to be able to do anything. when he leaves office, the opposing party president, if it is the opposing party, will indict the president for doing something that should have been good. >> of course, he went on to babble some more, saying that barack obama is the current president of the united states. and he does that repeatedly. then he says, "oh, no, no, i'm trying to make a point." no, no, he's not. he also warns about world war ii. but he said last night, when sean hannity set him up with, "hey, give them your closing. let me help you out. you're struggling here." >> speak to the voters. >> let me give you a chance to do your final closing statement to the voters, he says, "i need

total immunity. and barack obama, when he leaves the white house, is going to need total immunity, too." let's bring in editor at the non-partisan group protect democracy, amanda carpenter. "the authoritarian playbook for 2025" outlines the threats to a second trump presidency and what it poses to democracy. amanda, my gosh, you're going to have to write that appendix -- >> an addendum. >> donald trump yesterday and through the night and early morning was talking about how he must have total immunity. jonah goldberg early this morning tweeted a serious question for trump supporters. if donald trump can get total immunity and use seal team six to assassinate political rivals, then why couldn't joe biden order seal team six to

assassinate donald trump? jonah said, serious question. this is what your candidate -- this is what your cult leader is arguing. how can anybody support that? >> well, it's difficult for me to kind of consistently have legal perspective. we have learned by now that donald trump makes arguments of convenience and to benefit himself. you know, this idea of immunity, how he turns immunity into something real is when he becomes president again. becomes the party in power. luckily, i don't have to rewrite this report because that is our jumping off point of the first, most urgent threat in the order of our report. we outline six, but i want to talk about the pardon power. once a president can render himself above the law, that leads to all kinds of other bad things. it leads to a weaponization of the department of justice where he can direct investigations

against his political enemies. guess what? no one is going to prosecute him for it or the people who carry out the orders on his behalf. that's what's also really important to remember when he is talking about immunity in this respect. if you look at that tweet that he -- or whatever we're calling it now -- in the middle of the night, it got a lot pickup because people apply it to himself. if you look at the rest of it he also says, "you can't stop police from doingobf strong and effective crime prevention because you want to guardst the occasional rogue cop or bad apple." let me tell you, joe, when he is on the campaign trail, he talks a lot about bad apples. in his policy papers, it concerns me more because he didn't write it but the staff around him, people who would be in a trump 2.0 administration, who will carry out these directives. they talk about how, you know, you have to allow people at i.c.e. border patrol to carry out the president's demands.

there's going to be no more independence at the federal agencies because they report to the president. it's not only that he will be above the law. it'll be all the people around him that he can give pardons to, that he can indemnify, that he can say, "if you do this because i say so, forget about the law. i got you." we see this now with the pardon dangling for the january 6th rioters. we saw it in his first administration. i call them henchmen pardons, the pardons for paul manafort, michael flynn, and others who stone walled robert mueller's investigation. it's not even, like, i don't have to stare into a crystal ball and predict what is going to happen. it is clearly laid out for all of us to see. >> it's happened before. it's going to be intensified, jonathan lemire, when he becomes president again. amanda brings up a great point. i've been talking about how donald trump looks like, you know, he's shuffling around. at times, he looks really

confused and lost on stage. he still thinks that barack obama is president of the united states. what are we, eight years after obama left the white house? that said, amanda brings up a great point. donald trump has surrounded himself now, and people around him have surrounded himself with people who know how to implement his most authoritarian, his most authoritarian instincts. he's not -- when he is elected, he's notmble through the four years dangerously like he didn e first term. when he is electagain, he'll have people in there who have already said, they're going after his political opponents. already said they're going after networks. already said they're going after

producers on shows. have already said they're going after all of their political enemies, and it is going to make -- i think probably going to make oban look like thomas jefferson. >> recall the first week of the trump term in january of 2017 when they tried to institute the muslim ban. they didn't know what they were doing, and it was so sloppy that it fell apart quickly in the courts. that's probably not going to happen this time around. they've had now years to prepare and practice, and trump is surrounded not only by professionals but by true believers. there aren't going to be guardrails in the white house this time around. there's not going to be a general mattis or kelly. amanda, you know, a few of these i feel like can be linked, and they're all related to the idea that joe was starting to get to, of the idea of punishing foes. that can be regulatory retaliation, bringing up the irs,whatever it may be, and sticking them on an opponent. in a grander scale, say there are protests against trump on america's streets, deployment of the military in a domestic

fashion, something that his team has already suggested they might do by invoking the insurrection act. walk us through these here which paint a scary picture. >> yeah, the broad picture is that this is what the retribution agenda looks like. the hardest thing, and i think you guys know, covering donald trump, trying to explain him, there's so much. how do you tell that story, and how do you separate, you know, the politics as usual stuff, the stuff that isn't real and the stuff you should really pay attention to, right? that's what i tried to do where this report with think wonderful colleagues at protect democracy, progressives, conservatives like me, and we were dedicated to the mission. these are the things he is saying on the campaign trail. how can they become a reality? who are the groups supporting these? who is supporting these plans? what power can he draw upon to act it out? thank you for putting the graphic up. i really appreciate that. you know, it starts with the

pardon power because that is how everything else happens. once you have that pardon power and you can start directing the investigations against your opponents, the regulatory retaliation that will happen across the federal government, revoking broadcast licenses for an outlet like msnbc, which has he threatened many times, and it keeps going. it is really hard because there's great reporting coming from "the atlantic," "new york times," one issue at a time. but painting the picture about what it looks like to have an authoritarian president and how the threats aren't cabin to one issue or agency. it all comes down to his massive control over the federal government and what he can tell people working for the government to do to enact that retribution agenda against his perceived enemies. i don't like saying enemies because a lot of people are targeted for no reason. >> right. >> we talk about these massive deportation sweeps that he is vowing to enact.

you know, operation wetback times two. it'll be chaotic, cruel. even if you support tough immigration enforcement, which i count myself among those, there are going to be people swept up in this. it's happened before and will again. it will not be limited. even if you like trump, it's not limited to the out groups you dislike. it is coming for everyone. republicans more than anybody should understand that. the people being targeted for investigations, top of the list are people who work for him. >> no doubt about it. editor at the non-partisan group protect democracy, amanda carpenter, thank you for your invaluable work, and thank you for being here. really appreciate it. >> she's right. >> by the way, willie, she is right. this is really -- i'm glad they've put this all together because there really is a threat that donald trump talks about orban all the time, praises

orban all the time, praises xi, praises so many people. but, again, i think he is going to be worse. by the way, when i said he's going to make -- i forget what i said -- orban look like thomas jefferson, i meant, of course, the political philosopher quoted by frederick douglass and martin luther king. i may have confused some people with that one. but orban is deeply illiberal. he praises orban. orban runs people out of his country. political opponents, networks, people who own networks. this is trump's model, except it looks like it is going to be even worse. >> yeah, when you think about 2016 and 2017 when donald trump was sworn in, he was learning the game. he was learning about washington. i think in some ways, he felt

responsibility or he was being told about the people he had to put in place. that's how you got general kelly and general milley and all these people who had been there, who understood what was right for the country. we didn't like everything they did while they were there, but at least they did put the country first in the end. even mike pence did that on january 6th. that's over. that's gone. i mean, if donald trump is elected again, he's just putting in the loyalists. he's just putting in the people who will do exactly what he tells them to do, even if it means crossing the line. gene, you know, listening to that answer that donald trump gave sean hannity last night, when, again, sean hannity, bless him, just guiding donald trump through every interview he does with him. you didn't really mean that, did you? you didn't want to say it that way, did you? then donald trump blows it up. he said, "what is your closing argument to voters?" it is striking, every time donald trump is given a chance to talk about what he'll do for people, how he'll make their

lives better, he almost immediately starts talking about himself and immunity, keeping himself out of jail. if you watch a rally, it is not about the people in the room. it's about him and what he is going to do to protect himself. so i guess his hard core supporters don't care and they like the show, but, man, that is not a guy who is out to make people's lives better. >> no, of course not. because it's donald trump. what does donald trump care about? he's never cared about other people. you can't point to any episode in his long life in which you say, oh, yeah, that guy really cares about other people. he cares about donald trump. period. that's all he cares about. i mean, it is sociopathic. there you have it. so if he is president again, yes, he will have people who know how to move the levers of government. he will not have guardrails, and it'll be bad. i think worse than a lot of people imagine.

you know, the constitution gives the president a lot of power. there are checks and balances. congress has arguably ceded a lot more of its power to the president over the decades and the centuries. so, now, a president can do a lot of things in the authoritarian vein that are hard to stop. this is our future if trump gets elected. it will be bad. >> all right. nikki haley spoke with reporters yesterday in new hampshire, four days ahead of that state's primary. haleyaid she was now setting her sights squarely on trump. calling primary rival ron desantis, quote, invisible. >> he is closer to zero than he is to me. i mean, he is invisible in new hampshire. he is invisible in south carolina.

we're focused on trump. that's the key. we were focused on desantis in iowa. we are no longer focused on him. it is trump in new hampshire and trump in south carolina. trump says things. americans aren't stupid to just believe what he says. the reality is, who lost the house for us? who lost the senate? who lost the white house? donald trump, donald trump, donald trump. nikki haley will win every single one of those back for us. i've proven that. he can say whatever he wants. >> nikki haley started calling donald trump yesterday what he is politically, but what he hates more than anything, a loser. she also yesterday said something that most republicans in their bubble don't like to focus on. that the party has lost the popular vote in presidential elections seven out of eight times. the past seven. think about that. you can go back to 1992.

where were you in 1992? think about that. now, move forward from 1992 to 2024. the republican party has won the popular vote in all of that time, in a generation, just one time. clinton won it in '92 and '96. gore won in 2000. the supreme court, of course, voted for bush, 5-4. bush actually won it in 2004. that's the one time. obama easily won in '08. obama easily won in '12. hillary won it by 3 million votes in '16. biden won by over 7 million votes in 2020. look at that. nikki haley and other

republicans need to focus on the fact that their isolationism, they're all running into a bubble and continues to cost them elections. and she's right, donald trump lost the house. donald trump lost the senate. donald trump lost the white house. the only one-term president to do that since herbert hoover. let's go to -- what? yes. >> that's all right. i think it is great. so has ron desantis, he has been saying that, as well. >> by the way, ron desantis isn't invisible. he's actually showing up on television now, unlike nikki haley. ron desantis, it is interesting. let's bring in jay martin. he's in new hampshire. >> oh, it's cold out. >> when you're that cold, you're

stone cold sober, baby. >> need a shot of vodka. >> it is interesting. ron desantis, this is a side note -- there you go. look at that. pure whiskey. >> yes. >> actually, pure kentucky bourbon. filled to the top, my friend. >> baker's on the rocks this morning. >> on the rocks. >> this is what i like about jay martin, when he is cold, he drinks old fashioned from a styrofoam cup. >> it's okay. >> it's fine. >> it's okay. >> it's fine, baby. it's fine. >> yeah. >> so j-mart, it is fascinating, what's happened. ron desantis hated the media, attacked the media, corporate media this, corporate media that. >> yes. >> he actually came on our show a couple times. i'll be honest with you, he dumbed himself down so much to fit in sort of the trump bubble,

and he ran after all of those hot button conservative issues -- not conservative -- >> yes. >> -- maga issues so much, that when he came on and talked, really, to be honest with you, i was surprised. i was like, this guy, if he had run a mainstream republican race, you know, he would still be ahead. >> yeah. >> anyway, desantis was asked yesterday about the mistake. you know about this. he said, "i shouldn't have run away from the media. i should have put myself out there. like donald trump did in '16." nikki haley, it's something she will not do. she is uncomfortable. >> yeah. >> why uncomfortable? why is she so uncomfortable to doing that? >> i think, joe, that there are questions about trust. i think there's also some self-doubt, especially after what happened over the holidays when she was asked about the

civil war. i just think that she is historically, like a lot of republicans, they just prefer a more scripted environment. she's more of a cautious political actor. she's not going to do the john mccain riding around the bus in new hampshire. that's just not who she is. she's not comfortable with that. i think, joe, those comments yesterday by desantis were so revelatory. it was almost like his first therapy session after life as a candidate, even though he's technically still in the race. it is a great lesson for every future candidate for president, no matter what party you're in. you've got to do the press the year before the primary. you've got to put yourself out there. you've got to take risk. you can't be in a bubble. because the coverage of the pre-primary is what shapes the initial states. whether you like it or not, that coverage makes you or breaks you. i can cite you chapter and verse

for the last 20 years, candidates who were sunk by the year before the primary, not the primary itself. >> right. >> on that list, we almost certainly add the name of ron desantis. >> yeah. by the way, ron desantis' theory of the case is, nikki haley doesn't win in new hampshire. haley gets blown out in south carolina. she's out of the race. then it is a two-person race between desantis and trump. trump gets convicted, you know, and then he is the last man standing. that's their theory of the case. two things. first, can we go to a full j-mart shot for a second? >> bring it up. it's so good. >> let me tell you, we're in late january. >> i'm liking the hat so much. >> this is the shot of the year. >> really, this is the money shot. >> this is new hampshire. >> when they look back and say, "what were they doing 87 years ago on "morning joe" in 2024? this is a money shot right here that they're going to take. that's number one. >> beautiful. >> number two, if anybody is

still left watching this show after we babbling like -- [ laughter ]. >> wow. >> i could not agree with j-mart more on this. donald trump, so we told everybody in 2016, 2015/2016, if you're running for a major party, come on our show. we'll always let you come on our show. people got really angry because donald trump was on our show so much. guess what? that guy would call in. i'd call him a nazi. he'd call in. we'd hang up on him. he'd call in. >> right. >> we said that he was putin's puppet. he'd call in. we said he was a menace to democracy. he'd call in. we would say that he was -- after his ku klux klan comments and everything else, he'd call in. willie, the only other taker we got, and we kept telling the

candidates to call in, lindsey graham called in once or twice. it shows what j-mart says, like, ron desantis, i think, i think he would have been able to define his candidacy much more if he was out there talking about it himself. he knows that. but here we have nikki haley again, who i think is finally answering some questions from new hampshire voters, but, again, playing it safe. you can't play it safe and get elected president of the united states unless, of course, it's covid or your an incumbent. >> yup. >> you know who now agrees with your and j-mart's analysis? ron desantis himself. he was on with hugh hewitt yesterday. it sounded like a post-mortem interview about what went wrong with your campaign and all that. he said exactly what you and j-mart just said, which is, i should have gone national from the beginning. he didn't say it this way, but he said what you just said, which is, we kind of narrow cast at the beginning. we picked the maga issues and leaned into that. he said, i should have gone

everywhere, anytime, all the place to get the message out and talk to a broader audience than i did. the campaign isn't done, but maybe it will be. perhaps he'll carry that thinking with him in four years. j-mart, the vote in new hampshire in a few days, is it wish casting to think there is a race here? i mean, there were more double digit polls over the last couple days that show nikki haley further back than she needs to be certainly to win in new hampshire. there's questions about whether she wants to win. a light schedule up there. we understand she needed to be with her father, and we respect that. >> yeah. >> but is she, is there a accepts among voters and republicans there that she's playing to win in new hampshire? >> well, i think the reality of this, willie, is that this is a margin game. i don't think right now she's in a place where she can actually win on tuesday. there have been surprises in past new hampshire races. you guys know that well. that's possible certainly in the

next 72 hours here. right now, friday morning going into the final weekend, this is more of a question of what is her margin of defeat? is she going to lose to trump by 5 or 12? that makes a world of difference. i talked to lindsey graham, speaking of the senior senator from south carolina this week, and he made the point to me, if nikki haley wants to get on trump's ticket, and i think it is unlikely right now, but if trump tries to sort of patch up that relationship and make her vp, it's better for her to get out of the race after new hampshire. as he put it, sort of, you know, limit some of the scar tissue that could build up. as you guys know, if she loses here by 5, 6, says, i'm still in the race, and goes to south carolina for a month-long, knockdown, drag 'em out armageddon in south carolina, it's not going to end well, i don't think, for the former governor of south carolina. it certainly isn't going to help her chances to be vp. >> j-mart, i'm hearing the same

thing from people in south carolina who know the republican party politics down there. that primary, i think, isn't until close to the end of february, so there will be a long time. >> it's a full month. >> yeah, and it's trump, trump, trump. so i'm wondering, let's go back to desantis for a second. is his theory of the case completely delusional, or is there a possibility of that scenario in which he does stick it out in south carolina, she gets creamed, and then what? >> right. yeah, his scenario is, you know, she will drop out either to save face before south carolina or she'll drop out after losing her home state convincingly, and i'll be the last guy standing and can collect delegates and maybe, just maybe, lightning strikes and i'll be the only alternative. gene, the problem there is, there's not a scenario, i don't think, where trump catches a conviction in march or april of this year. i think that's when the trial in d.c. is going to be probably

getting started. i just don't see a scenario where the timing works out for desantis. one final point that is important for folks to know on south carolina, there's a democratic primary there, too, at the start of the month. if joe biden drives out independent voters in that state to vote for him who were anti-trump, guess what? those voters cannot participate later in the month in the republican primary. those are precisely the voters that nikki haley would need in south carolina to have a shot against trump. that's a really important point. unlike new hampshire, the two parties have primaries on different days and you have to pick one. she could lose a lot of her potential voters weeks earlier voting on the dems side. >> j-mart, tell us, where are you going today? what events are you going to in new hampshire? >> i'm going to head down to the seacoast to see the governor of new hampshire, chris sununu, and nikki haley. it's one of the great sort of

sub-themes of this race. the governor up here, who by the way is a lot more tv accessible than nikki haley, is having the time of his life kind of living vicariously, trying to run the campaign that i think he kind of wanted to do himself, through nikki haley. i'll see them today and hopefully catch up with governor desantis at some point, too, who will be in new hampshire. >> all right. >> by the way -- >> and try not to freeze. >> yeah, and not freeze. >> don't freeze. >> enjoy your old fashion in the styrofoam cup. and nikki who was criticized for not being accessible, people announced yesterday she'll have six events today. >> she's not doing interviews. she's got to get in there. we were talking about media and actually answering questions honestly about donald trump. we're getting there. senior political columnist for "politico," jonathan martin, the g.o.a.t. of new hampshire. >> he is. >> thank you so much. his latest reporting is entitled, "the gop is already clashing over trump's vp pick."

look for that. coming up, hundreds of mayors from cities across the country are in washington for the annual u.s. conference of mayors. today, they will meet with president biden. we'll talk to the mayors of kansas city and oklahoma city about the issues they plan on bringing up with the president. before we go to break -- >> last night, what was jack asking? >> papa, papa, i want to know, what does willie have planned for "sunday today"? >> what does willie have? >> willie? >> jack is 6'4", 230 pounds, football player. but, yeah, he talks, weirdly enough, you turn him into a little kid every sunday morning. >> somehow, his voice is getting higher as he makes his way through puberty. interesting phenomenon. he should study somewhere. i hope jack likes likely best actor nominees for the academy award. nominations are announced tuesday. i had an incredible conversation

with coleman domingo, stars in "ruston." he is incredible. this movie about an unsung hero of the civil rights movement. the man who almost single-handedly organized the march on washington where, of course, martin luther king made the "i have a dream" speech. a wonderful man who is getting his moment. he's been nominated for just about every award you can be nominated for. a great conversation with coleman domingo, coming up this sunday on nbc. we'll be right back on "morning joe."

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meeting. the event kicked off on wednesday with the mayors meeting with members of congress and the biden administration. they've been discussing a wide-range of issues, including gun violence, immigration, and the rise in hate crime. this afternoon, they're expected to meet with president biden at the white house. joining us now, the mayor of kansas city, democrat, quinton lukas, and the mayor of oklahoma city, republican david holt. guys are basically on the front lines of all the issues that plague our urban centers. i'll start with you, mayor david holt. both of you, though, can take this question. what are the top issues that you hope to present to the president today? >> well, i'm sure we'll hear about immigration. i'm sure, obviously, that's having an effect on some of our cities. maybe less oklahoma city and kansas city, but we're monitoring it because it is directly affecting our colleagues. i'm sure we'll talk about public

safety. that is often viewed as a local responsibility, but, obviously, we've always had a strong federal partner there. obviously, issues like fentanyl relate to that. we're meeting with the secretary of state this morning to talk about fentanyl, which, you know, maybe doesn't appear at first blush to be a secretary of state issue, but, of course, that's where the drugs are coming from, everywhere else in the world. lots of issues like that. you know, we run the gamut. homelessness, anti-semitism, islamophobia. when you're the mayor, you're at the center of everything. >> mayor lucas? >> what is most interesting right now is how many international issues, whether it be relating to fentanyl, israel, so many other things are impacting cities now, certainly the politics of american cities. you're seeing that in the conference. secretary of border security joined us, the president, and, of course, talking to the secretary of state and president today. you are seeing this somewhat

unique overlap of truly global issues and local ones, and it is playing itself out in city halls across the country. >> mayor lucas, there's certainly, in the wake of the height of the pandemic, a rise in homelessness across the nation. you know, plaguing many, many big cities. talk to us about how that'll be discussed today, and what will be the approach of these mayors who are at the front lines of this, asking for more federal assistance? >> you know, i think you're seeing a few different approaches. first, some mayors like mike johnston in denver and others are using these truly creative ideas to get everyone off the streets. how do we build more housing? how do we once and for all get more support for hud frankly, we need more funding. one thing is the immigration issue, as distinct from our federal partners, for us, it is a housing issue. on kansas city, we're seeing an

increase in populations from venezuela and haiti, something new for us. then the third part of it relates to drug addiction, substance abuse, and the mental health issues that people are facing. without addressing all three, we'll continue to see the incredible numbers of rising homelessness across the country. after 2020 and 2021 and covid, we thought you'd see numbers go down. the world would get back to normal. you are not seeing that with homelessness. you're really not seeing that with a lot of downtowns in our country, and that's something all mayors are facing. >> mayor holt, let's get back to the immigration issues for a second. is oklahoma city also seeing the impact of people coming in through the southern border? are they ending up in oklahoma city? how are you handling that? >> to be honest with you, no. we have, obviously, a longstanding and thriving latino community in oklahoma, but, no, the buses have not been rolling

into oklahoma. so, no, we're more kind of in solidarity with our fellow mayors in other cities that are having to handle that, but we've not had the issue in oklahoma city. >> oklahoma city mayor republican david holt and kansas city, missouri, mayor quinton lucas, thank you very much. good luck with the chiefs on sunday. thank you for being on this morning. >> thank you. ahead on "morning joe," a new deal to secure the release of hostages held by hamas may be taking shape. nbc news chief international correspondent keir simmons will join us ahead with more on the heightened tensions across the region. plus, millions of americans are bracing for brutal winter weather as dangerously cold conditions sweep across the country. we'll have a look of what to expect over the weekend. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.

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a live look at cincinnati right now for you thanks to our affiliate. snowy roads. be careful out there. extreme weather has been hammering the country, and it continues today with hearts of the north east racing for even more snow and freezing temperatures gripping much of the nation. nbc news correspondent emily a kata has the latest. >> reporter: is residence nationwide dig out from the latest blast of winter, this morning, millions are bracing for even more dangerous weather. roadways from coast-to-coast

treacherous. this car in new york slamming in place no plow while trying to pass a truck. and frightening moments in rochester when the american airlines lane skidded off the tax away because of snowy conditions. emergency crews rushing to get 53 people safely off the aircraft. parts of western new york lincoln did by more than five feet of lake effect snow, burying local businesses and shuttering's rules all week in buffalo. there is so much snow here you can't even tell it's a car behind you. nearly 50 people have died over the last week as a result of the perilous weather, including three family members after a powerline l onto their car in ic portland, oregon. the only survivor, a nine month old baby, a witness rescuing the child. >> 16 people have died in tennessee alone, which is now under a state of emergency.

as subzero wind chills and more snow sets and across the country. but some moments of hope and daring rescues, including one by a four legged friend. in michigan, after first responders were unable to reach a man who fell through the ice on the lake, his dog ruby bringing over a rescue disk. the man, eventually pulled to safety. >> incredible. and still ahead on morning joe, we will be joined by a national co-chair for the no labels group, trying to build support for a third-party ticket in 2024 as democrats fear the effort could cost joe biden the election. plus, a scathing doj report on the 2022 school shooting in texas. says children's lives could've been saved to police officers responded differently. we will have details on what it calls a series of major failures by law enforcement.

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>> the president of united states -- and i'm not talking about myself, anybody has to have immunity. if you take immunity away from the president, you will have a president that's not able to do anything, because when he leaves office, the opposing party president, if it's the opposing party, will indict the president for doing something that should have been good, like obama dropped missiles, and the ended up hitting a kindergartner or a school or an apartment house. a lot of people were killed. well, if that's the case, he's going to end up being indicted when he left office. he meant well. the missile went in the wrong direction, and other things. >> and other things. there is so much wrong with that. >> waits, what president? he's talking about obama.

>> first of all, we will get to the hitler stuff and a second. let's start, though, with -- >> i will make a chart. >> -- let's start with donald trump is not well. we know this. he's looking so old, he shuffling around, and he really does think that barack obama is the president of the united states. he is going through this thing, and then, about why he should have total immunity, total immunity even when he crosses the line. right? this is the seal team six can assassinate -- yeah. by the way, jenna goldberg, i think it was is morning, jenna goldberg tweeted out this morning, what do trump supporters say who believe that team six can assassinate political rivals -- what do they say of someone's eyes, well, then joe biden could

order seal team six this morning to assess the donald trump? and he would be immune. by donald trump's arguments. it is pure, shear, authoritarianism and tierney. so we have that part of it. it is trump at his most dangerous, but also trump at his most detached from reality. he is really losing it. we have been getting glimpses of him shuffling around and looking lost and getting up on stage, talking about world war ii, talking about president obama, and here, he did it again and said, listen -- president obama may have bombed kindergartens, but he was trying to do good things, and when he leaves office -- when he leaves office, he could face a conviction.

it's crazy. >> well, donald trump was on stage two nights ago bragging about how he passed that rudimentary dementia past. he was really leaning into that. obsessed with brock obama, as always. it's the first name that is top of mind. it seems like he thinks he's running against barack obama. sometimes he says that out loud. into your deeper point about this immunity question, he said any president then could prosecute the previous presidents. first of all, it's the justice department, as we mentioned 1000 times. second of all, yeah. if that president breaks laws, if that president attempted coup against united government or takes nuclear secrets back to his beach house or is found liable for sexual assault, yeah. that guy might be prosecuted. we like to think that our presidents wouldn't do any of those things. this is a unique case the donald trump is trying to take

a rule to keep himself out of jail that he says would apply to all other presidents. >> let's bring in eugene robinson and. this is, again, donald trump once again detached from reality. again, thinking that, you know, world war two is upon us and is running against barack hussein obama. that is one part of it, and we have seen images of him over the past couple of weeks. he is just not doing well, it doesn't seem, physically. then there's a second part of it, and that is -- donald trump -- this with donald trump's closing statement. before sean hannity. he is like a dad that gets a baseball, and he puts it on the tv, and he goes, come on, johnny. hit the tea. and johnny keeps hitting his hand. sean hannity has placed more balls on tees only to hear barack obama's name, time and

time again, and he -- other fox news host's, have to correct them and say, no, you are running against joe biden. let's put that on one side, and on the other side, you got it or president who republicans look like they are going to nominate, who is saying -- i really could get seal team 62 assassinate my opponents, and i have to have immunity. his clothing statement for the voters is, i need total immunity from everything, even when i cross the line. >> absolutely. it's funny, because i had that same thought about before sean hannity, and i don't often feel sorry for sean hannity, but i did, because he had just absolutely teed up the ball. and donald trump, you know, it was ridiculous. it's just -- i mean, what more

can he do? the thing about donald trump, of course, is that he is pure it, and the freudian sense. he does blurts out what he's obsessed about. you know what's on his mind, and what on his mind with trying to stay out of jail, you can just tell from these recent appearances how worried he is that he is going to go to jail. he's going to have to pay massive, massive fines in all of these various cases. who knows how much you will have to pay to e-zine carol. he's going to have consequences for his actions. over his presidency, over his long life, in which he crossed the line all the time. he is all about crossing the line, and he is so worried that he's going to have to go to jail. this is what he's thinking. more than is thinking about the

campaign or anything else. he wants to stay out of jail. >> i mean, we set it since 2019. let me say that again. we've been saying this for four years. if donald trump loses in 2020, he will run again. why? only because he wants to stay out of jail. at the entire purpose of this campaign. we've been saying that for 4 years. when people are saying, will donald trump run, yes, he is. he loves money. if he can cash in and make the money, he would, right now, he is only focused on staying out of jail, so of course he's going to run again. because trump is lost so many steps, we always talk about how long we've known him, we've known him a long time. >> yes, we have. >> that guy that i am watching now, that guy hasn't lost one step. that guy has lost five, six, seven steps, and he still

thinks he's running against barack obama. and so, i mean, you shuffling around. i just -- i seriously, i think this would be harder and harder for the campaign to manage this guy, and in just my opinion, he looks like he's an ace tereus data decline, and seriously is so confused. he is still thinking about the guy that -- that he started the birther conspiracy theory about back in 2011. still onmind, can't let it go, and doesn't seem to be in a very good state at all. just freaked out about immunity. immunity even one seal team six kills his political opponents. >> when i was a metro reporter with the daily news, we cover trump from time to time 15, 20 years ago. it's very clear he's not the same guy he was then. and that post about presidential immunity also had the great trump tell of this

era, which is when he goes to all caps. when he goes to all caps, particularly about his legal edicaments, you know it is a window into how upset and anxious he is, and that's a night where he did posting overnight repeatedly about eugene carol and other, quote, witchhunts, and yesterday morning even what to say this, debating that full immunity for even events that cross the line. this is something that feels like not only, of course, a scary projection of what could come in a second trump term or he can say, i could do whatever i want and can't be prosecuted. >> jonathan, guess what? >> this will happen. >> this will happen if he gets elected again, but jonathan, that is also -- everything he says is either a projection or confession. >> there is confession when he says, i cross the line. you've got to give me immunity.

i know i've crossed to the line. i know that if america's rule of law plays out the way it is the host to be, i'm going to spend the rest of my life in jail. that is what the meltdown is all about. >> i didn't invoke his name for fear that he would show up here, but certainly -- it is his projection and confession. this is projection of what a second trump term would be like, but it's a projection of what already happened in the first term, he says he needs this immunity because he knows he broke the line in any number of cases. we are not sure which one he was freaked about right now, and really, we can't say this enough. his last night on fox was, i'm not just asking for total immunity for me, doing it for all presidents. well, the previous 44 presidents, they didn't need it. this applies solely to donald trump. >> you don't need immunity if you don't attempt to lead a queue against united government or take classify documents back your beach club.

let's bring to the conversation nbc legal, and you list andrew wiseman. this talk about this question of immunity in the courts. it was just last week that that three-judge panel on the federal standard very skeptical of the presidents claim, and his attorneys claim that he deserved full immunity in this federal case about the 2012 election. where does that stand, and based on what we heard in court that day, what you suspect the judges there, how they will rule? >> well, i think there's no question that they are going to rule against donald trump, and i don't think that his recent tweet to the extent that it comes to their attention is going to help. in terms of donald trump's strategy of saying something that outlandish, it really does not help in terms of the court looking and realizing what they are being asked to do is -- it's going to be acted on by this man. stilted strategic lee, it is a

terrible idea. i think there is no way on god's green earth that this panel is going to find that he is immune from criminal prosecution, that it's never been the law, and it's not going to be the law. there's a lot of people who always think it's going to come down on a friday, so we could be getting it at any moment. and then one quick thought about this discussion, because i don't think the courts are going to grant immunity, but just remember, if donald trump becomes president, he will use his pardon power to, in effect, do what he is saying he would do if he can't get the courts to give them total immunity, which is, if you can use the pardon power to pardon people who commit crimes, including crimes for him, as he has said with respect to the january 6 people who he is now determining that they are hostages, and not actually

criminal defendant. so it's worth keeping an eye out for how other powers that he could have, if he becomes president, will be used in a way that gets into the same end result. >> all right. e.g. in carol return to the witness stand yesterday for the third day of the defamation damages trial against former president trump. although trump is not in court due to his mother-in-law's funeral. his presence was certainly felt in the form of a video, played for the jury. carol's attorney played a clip from trump's remarks at a press conference on wednesday, attempting to show how the former president continues to defame carol. during cross-examination, trump attorney alayna holbert questioned carol about her current income from her blog, and seems to attribute carol's increase in earnings to be, quote, fame that she has received because of her

connection to trump. >> you mean fame because she was attacked by trump according to the judge? >> added twist from a female attorney. carol admitted that she is more well-known after writing about the abuse, but writing that she is also hated by a lot more people. the former president is expected to be back in court when the trial resumes on monday, where he may or may not take this. first of all, i just think that through this trial, you really are reminded what a vile, disgusting person donald trump is. you watch the deposition with eugene carol's attorney and how vile and disgusting he is in that deposition. what he thinks about women, how he views them as sort of object, toys. literally, so unbelievably misogynist and rude that you wouldn't -- you wouldn't have this person at your dinner table. you would not let your kids act

this way. you would not want anybody in your life to act this way, and yet it's unbelievable how many people support him. >> just to be specific, this is the position where he said that she wasn't his type, and then he attacked her attorneys and said, you are not my type at all, either. and then he talked about how throughout history, powerful men have been able to do whatever they want. access hollywood style, with women. and he said -- then he goes, you know, maybe it's for the good. or maybe not. i don't know. suggesting that sexual assault if you are powerful may be okay. >> i show a lot of that deposition. andrew wiseman, where does this trial go if he shows up, if he testifies. what do you expect? >> well, she has not finished putting on her case, so we expect on monday that there will be some more testimony.

what happened yesterday is that she finished testifying. she was on cross-examination, and then redirect. and then there was also an expert talking about reputational damage. that is one aspect of the damages that she is seeking. she's also seeking punitive damages, and that's where the -- the clip that you referenced was played to show that if you are trying to figure out how to make him stop, it's relevant for the jury to have heard that he is continuing to, as she says, to defame her to this day. so there was something very surreal in court about hearing sort of, you know, you could barely catch up with the defamation in court. and then, we will see next week, early next week, after the plaintiff, whether donald trump takes the stand, it's

very hard to see that he will, because, remember, and this case, it is only about damages. liability has been found as a matter of law, because donald trump has had his day in court already and lost. a jury found that he had sexually assaulted and defamed carol. there is a victim in this case, and it is eugene carol, not donald trump. it remains to be seen whether he's testifying, or whether he can testify with respect to damages. >> we are just in the very early stages of a long year and a lot of different courtrooms like the for donald trump. and already, as you watch, none of them is going particularly well, by the way. it's unlikely his immunity claims will hold up before that federal deals panel. we are hearing about all of this grotesque behavior, his

behavior inside the courtroom, toddler like, pounding the table, being admonished by the judge. what is your sense of, as he tries to run for re-election and spends almost every waking moment talking about him self, talking about the past, talking about how he has to keep himself out of jail, about how this accumulates over the worst of the year, and how it will lay in a presidential election? >> at this point of the campaign, who knows how over- the-top crazed he will be. as we get more -- as we get closer to the election, it gets worse and worse and worse. and the only case that is going in any way more favorably to trump is arguably the documents case were judge cannon has issued favorable rulings that might delay that trial, potentially until after the election, i would think. so i think trump would like

that. although, the evidence in that case, in the end, is absolutely slamdunk. but the case, you know, with trump, it is -- money is always front of mind, and he is really worried about this case, that you know, he bothered to go in the courtroom and put on a show, and that's not all political. you know, i think he's really worried about the money. i have a question for andrew weiss, which is -- okay. this phase of the trial is about the money. let's say that the jury decide that actual damages to -- we heard a figure of 12 million. let's say it's 50 million, 20 million, whatever the actual damages are, don't courts have kind of a rule of thumb about the ratio of punitive damages to actual damages? i'm worried

about how high the jury could go in terms of punitive damages, especially since trump has continued to defame her even in the trial, even as the trial is going on. the question was asked, how much money will it take to make him stop, how high could the jury go and stay within judge kaplan's ratio? >> so, those are two separate components to that. the journey, with respect to compensatory and punitive damages, will really have no limits, particularly with respect to punitive damages. compensatory damages, the plaintiff has sought at least -- at least $10 million. yesterday, we heard from an expert who said that just one part of compensatory damages should be between 7 and $12 million to repair her reputation. but then again, there's also emotional damages, and it just

the amount that you suffer when you are defamed by the then sitting president of the united states. there is no limit that's going to be given to the jury in deciding the punitive damages. they can come up with any award they want. and a way to think about this is when ruby freeman and shane moss sued rudy giuliani last month. the jury could come up with any figure they wanted. if the number is viewed by the courts as just so beyond the pale, there is a way for the courts to reduce it. here, i think it would be very hard for donald trump to win that kind of argument. obviously, we have to see what the number is, but it is because the issue is, you usually do not have the person who has defamed the plaintiff continuing to do it. so you have continuing harm, and the point of punitive damages is to get the person to

stop, to punish them for their behavior. and if they are continuing to be so recalcitrant it becomes very hard for that person to say, reduce the award. coming up, congress avoids a government shutdown passing a stopgaps ending measure, but it's only short-term fix. we will have the timeline for when this round of funding runs out. straight ahead on morning joe. . at bombas, we're obsessed with comfort. softness. quality. because your basic things should be your best things. one purchased equals one donated. visit bombas.com and get 20% off your first order.

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>> for whatever reason, people don't want it anymore, that's a tough position.

so they are seeing a couple of things. we will never vote for it if it's attached to that. really? we have meaningful border policy, and you don't want that? you defend that. some people say, biden wants it now because it's helpful for him politically. okay. i want quarter percent security. if we can get that deal, we should take it. >> spoken like a true conservative, actually. my feeling -- what do i always say? i'm always open to converts. i don't care why. i don't care why they come to the site of reason. you know what? gene robinson, south carolina, he grew up in the church like me. preachers, they don't care what got you to the baptismal area. they just are glad you are

there. but here's dan crenshaw speaking the truth, saying it is bizarre. we republicans have been pushing for border security for years, and we have a democratic president and a republican senate that is going to give it to us. and now, we hate ukraine more than we like border security. let's just underline again for our friends it may not of been watching yesterday, and we know everybody watches four hours every day. it's important to remember, we have a speaker of the house that has voted, taken the pro- putin line and every vote on ukraine aid. every time he gave aid and comfort to vladimir putin by voting against aid in ukraine to push back the russian invaders. so here's crenshaw saying, wait

-- do we really like vladimir putin so much that we are going to give up the best order deal we will ever get? that's what republicans are saying. the best border deal we will ever get? >> yeah. senate republicans have pointed it out here, they will never get the steal. even if republicans were to take the presidency and both houses of congress, they would still need 60 votes in the senate to pass a deal, and they wouldn't get it. this is the best they are going to get. and they will not take yes for an answer, because they think donald trump -- or they know donald trump doesn't want them to. so they are saying, no. let's talk about my johnson for a minute. my johnson the speaker of the house. he's not just a representative of his district in louisiana.

he is -- he's the third ranking official in our government. he has a broader duty to the country. the united states is made commitments. it's made a commitment of this ukraine aid, and that commitment has to be fulfilled. and i remember back when nancy pelosi first became speaker of the house under george w. bush. the iraq war needed to be funded. a bill had to pass to fund the iraq war. she was against the iraq war back then. her entire democratic caucus, which controlled the house, was against the iraq war. but she knew it had to be done. she couldn't leave the troops hanging. she had to fulfill u.s. commitments, so she's lit up the funding bill into a couple of pieces, and all her caucus could get the boat, we hate the war.

one the other piece, they and republicans -- and she can count, so she got the number of boats she needed, to pass the money. she did it. she didn't do it because she wanted to do it or she liked to do it, it was heard duty as speaker of the house. i wonder what job mike johnson thinks he has now. but he needs to understand that he has broader responsibilities, and these include fulfilling u.s. commitments overseas. >> they do. and just think about that for a second. you have nancy pelosi -- and i will say, even though he drove me crazy and i helped mike run him out of the speakership, time and again, newt gingrich was faced with things he didn't want to do. things that he was against, but just like you are saying, just like nancy pelosi, gingrich and other speakers that i saw up close were like, there's a

responsibility. we don't like it. we can try to make a change by voting, but, yes. we've got to keep america's commitment at home and across the globe. and here we have, really, you wonder what dan crenshaw and mike mccall and other people who actually support freedom in europe, support freedom across the west, want to see the russian invaders pushed back are at least held where they are, so putin can't march into kiev. you wonder what they are thinking when they see senate republicans working their tails off on a bipartisan package that would increase border security and pushed putin back, but they are facing opposition from this speaker who, instead of worrying -- a republican -- who instead of worrying about america's commitments across

the globe and freedom in europe and freedom across the west, he is concerned about 3 or four backbenchers. and also, he's getting calls from who? donald trump, who is telling him -- rejected. >> bingo. donald trump is running the operation, telling the beaker what to do. by the way, listening to that sound bite from congressman crenshaw, i haven't heard anybody put it more concisely. by the way, dan crenshaw is an actual patriot. this is a guy who served the country and gave his eye and earned a purple heart, a guy who cares about the country saying, effectively, i don't care if someone looks at this as a win for joe biden whatever political question you want to lay over this. i want border security. we have in front of us in border security deal. take the deal, he is saying. he also folded in the question of russia and aggression and backing ukraine. to your point, there is a deal to be had in the senate.

the question is whether the house will take it. this is the senator from north carolina, involved in the negotiations on the tenant type, reacting to the revelation that donald trump is in fact working behind the scenes to torpedo this tenant deal. >> you know, i respectfully disagree with the president. he could not have possibly seen what we are negotiating, and so i will reserve judgment on that after it's been made public. but i think what james lankford has done, we should support it. when the bill is released and everyone, particularly conservatives and president trump, sees the tools that will be available to president trump should he win the election, to lose this opportunity to get it passed into law, i think, is malpractice. >> total malpractice. >> this is what they've been trying to get. they will not get anything better, not even in the future with a potential trump

president. >> and again, this looks so bad for them. and again, they are idiots if they don't think is going to blow up in their face in the election. here, you have house republicans fighting against lindsey graham, fighting against john thune, fighting against james lankford, fighting against dan crenshaw, fighting against some of the most conservative republicans on capitol hill trying to stop a borders to surety -- the best border security bill ever. at the same time, we have a continuing border security crisis. so jonathan linear, they are going to try to impeach for a lack of border security. at the same time, they are listening to donald trump and killing what the most conservative republicans in the senate are saying is the best

border security bill we've ever had, and is the best, as john thune said yesterday, it's the best security deal for the border we will ever get. and they are willing to push that to the side to let hooten move in to ukraine, all because they are afraid it might help joe biden. they want to help trump and putin. >> there's no question. we further republican senator say, even if they win everything back next year and are in control control in 2025, they won't get a good deal. president biden and his meeting this week told republican leadership, i'm willing to make a deal. let's do some tough national security. but that's not what some of these speakers in the house are focused on. their focus not on governing, but on politics. they refused to let joe biden

take anything can win, and it's a number of issues. trump doesn't want this border security to be taken away as a campaign issue. it doesn't look like mike johnson wants to give that deal. trump, as we know, is famously very friendly to hooten and doesn't want the u.s. to continue to arm ukraine like it has to this point. so therefore, that funding piece of it is also in jeopardy. let's recall the entire effort to impeach joe biden, to launch that impeachment inquiry, is because donald trump told his republican allies on the hill he didn't want to be the only candidate this november to of been impeached. so it's all politics, it's all trump. they are all examples of how he controls their party, and they are willing to do his bidding. still ahead on morning joe. >> one thing. i want my republican colleagues to give me one thing -- one -- that i can go campaign on and say we did.

one. anybody sitting in the complex, if you want to come down to the floor next lane to me one material, meaningful, significant thing the republican majority has done besides -- well, i guess it's not as bad as the democrats. >> that was republican congressman chip roy late last year. we explain what is driving one of the least productive arrows for congress in decades. we will be right back. back.

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welcome back. we have been discussing the spending talks on capitol hill

this morning, and steve ratner is here with more on that. let's start with the first one right behind you there. slim majority, slow congress. we talked about how historically unproductive this congress has been. what are you looking at there on the chart? >> i thought i would bring some tracks and some numbers to put some facts behind it. so the republicans have the smallest majority, actually, i think in history at the moment. they are just two seats. your george santos leave, kevin mccarthy leave, there down to just 2 seats. the consequence of that is a pass the fewest number of bills in modern history in their first year. they passed just 24 bills, and you can see what went on here in the past. a dramatic drop off. and this gets back a little bit to what joe is talking about about the deficit, because back in 99, 2000, they also had a small majority, which you can see over here, that they

actually passed a lot of legislation. as joe said, they dealt with the debt. we got a lot of legislation passed. congress could function. but it's really a problem within the republican party, because they can't function. mike johnson does not have control over the are right as we will talk about further in a minute, and so it is all stalled. it's ironic, because the senate is supposed to be the ones were slow and the houses the ones were supposed to be fast. the job was to get it the other way around. legislation like this deal the james lankford is working on with the democrats is coming out of the senate, and the house is eating there essentially doing almost nothing. >>'s leslie moved to next chart, it's illustrative of what you are talking about here, which is the inability to get anything done, including a budget which used to be not such a difficult task, but now we live moment to moment, almost month to month trying to pass these emergency budgets to avoid government shutdowns. >> when the republicans took

over the house, they said we are going to have the government's fiscal year starting on october 1, we would be ready to go with a real budget. here we are now in the middle of january. there's no budget. there are a bunch of continuing resolutions. one passed last night to avoid a government shutdown. that's how close it came. it was only passed because the democrats supported it. johnson barely got one above them in the majority of his caucus. half of his caucus voted against the steel. but it's a stopgap measure as you pointed out and takes us to about the first of march. between now and then, they have to deal with it. let's talk about what's at stake there. joe biden originally proposed the $7 billion in more spending for the current fiscal year. kevin mccarthy made a deal with him before he was kicked out that essentially, federal funding would not go out. chuck schumer just renegotiated that deal with mike johnson, and while the numbers are sort of the same, in fact, mike johnson.one thing that is

important. to him, anyway. he got a further cut in irs spending from 10 billion to 20 billion. now, the irony of this is cutting irs spending actually increases the deficit, as this chart shows, because the government collects more than a dollar from taxpayers who are not filing their tax is properly. for every dollar that we spend on more irs to do that audit. the republicans who claim they want to cut the deficit are increasing it because they want to give them more loopholes do not pay taxes. the other issue that johnson is going to face is the fact that is far right caucus once $58 billion of spending cuts. it's not at all clear that they will vote for any deal that johnson makes. once again, he's going to have to go to the democrats to pass this thing, if and when we ever get to it. he's going to have to go to the democrats, and it will be interesting to see how all that

unfolds. the question is, how long does johnson survive with a caucus that doesn't even support him when he makes a deal? >> let slide along the wall to the next chart on immigration. this is the question that is being debated as we begin congress right now. the senate says they are close to a bipartisan deal. the house won't take a good deal, it appears, because it getting pressure from donald trump to not give joe biden a win. talk about the immigration crisis and what it looks like right now. >> just as a reminder, yeah. we have had a big surge in encounters of the border. it's up to about 2.6 million a year. but let's be clear. these are not people who are sneaking across the border and disappearing into america to become illegal immigrants. these are people, in just one second, who actually are in the hands of our customs and border control and are going to the system. this group done here at the bottom are what we call the got

a ways. the ones who actually do sneak across the border and disappear into our system. with the consequence of that is that this black line, almost 90% of the people who try to cross our border, and up in the hands of customs and border patrol. so it's not an issue of a wall, people sneaking across and disappearing. his numbers actually come down quite substantially, and most of these people are in our hands. so what happens to them? last year, 2.6 million of them ended up in the hands of customs and border patrol as you can see here. either by coming across at a port of entry or coming across somewhere else. many of them just turn themselves in to order patrol because they want to go through the system. it will claim asylum. the problem is, they end up in our court system. 1.5 million of them came across the border, they are apprehended, they were processed, and they were given what is called a notice to appear before an immigration court, but it hasn't happened

as we have this huge backlog. why? because congress has not funded, and that's why we need this bill. congress has not funded the immigration court system sufficiently to process all these folks. the other thing most people probably don't know is 850,000 of them actually left. some of them voluntarily, some were sent back. but out of 2.6 million of them, 850,000 just went back. 300,000 got what is parole, which is a humanitarian process are people who come in from places like haiti and cuba and venezuela. but our court system is so messed up that all these 2.6 million people, fewer than 300,000 got relief at the end of the process. and so we need to pass this immigration bill to get this problem solved. coming up, a live report were world leaders are tackling big issues, including the war in ukraine. we are there straight ahead on the morning show. show.

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ask your gastroenterologist about rinvoq and learn how abbvie can help you save. i think he's having a midlife crisis ask your gastroenterologist about rinvoq i'm not. you got us t-mobile home internet lite. after a week of streaming they knocked us down... ...to dial up speeds. like from the 90s. great times. all i can do say is that my life is pre-- i like watching the puddles gather rain. -hey, your mom and i procreated to that song. oh, ew! i think you've said enough. why don't we just switch to xfinity like everyone else? then you would know what year it was.

i know what year it is. coming up, we will go to detroit, where the lions will take on tampa this sunday. a preview of the nfl playoff action as the lions and their long suffering fans maybe take one step closer to a super bowl when "morning joe" comes right back. super bowl when "morning joe" comes right back

welcome back. families in uvalde, texas, are again calling for members of law enforcement face consequences following a scathing report from the department of justice. it calls the response to the massacre at robb elementary an unimaginable failure.

morgan chesky has more. >> reporter: in uvalde, texas, new calls for accountability this morning after the justice department released a damning assessment of the horrific 2022 mass shooting at robb elementary school. the federal government blasting the response by law enforcement. >> this was a failure of leadership. >> reporter: in a more than 600-page report, the doj outlines what it calls cascading failures of leadership, decision making, tactics, policy and training. the key focus, 77 minutes that went by before officers engaged with the shooter, an 18-year-old with an ar-15. among the issues the report raises, no one assumed a leadership role, calling the biggest mistake officers treating the situation as a barricaded threat and not an active shooter. >> had the law enforcement agencies followed generally accepted practices in an active

shooter situation, lives would have been saved and people would have survived. >> reporter: another disturbing revelation, a wounded teacher who first responders left on a walkway outside the school died there. the doj says police also gave conflicting and incorrect information. >> an official incorrectly told families waiting for their children at the civic center that an additional bus of survivors was coming. it did not. >> reporter: the report offering nearly 300 recommendations for law enforcement nationwide. this woman whose granddaughter died confirms what she already witnessed on police body cam videos. >> they had the opportunity to go in and they didn't. >> reporter: so far only a handful of officers have been disciplined. rubio hopes this report leads to consequences.

do you believe there will be accountability? >> it's hard to be optimistic when we've hit so many roadblocks, but i plan on fighting for accountability. >> there really has to be accountability here. it's just staggering. >> it's unimaginable. the cascading failures that caused the tragedy in uvalde, the cowardice. i can't even imagine what the parents were going through, what those children were going through still alive inside. >> begging. >> while law enforcement officers stood outside and, as the attorney general said, ignored all existing protocols, everything they're told to do to stop a school shooter they

refused to do. we are one minute into the fourth hour of "morning joe" now. 6:00 a.m. on the west coast, 9:00 a.m. in the east. we're now just four days from the republican primary in new hampshire, where nikki haley has faced criticism recently for not taking questions from voters while on the campaign trail. as the "new york times" reports, it has frustrated some attendees in the state where voters tend to want to hear from the candidates directly. yesterday she briefly took questions from reporters. haley defended her conservative credentials amid accusations from donald trump and ron desantis that she's being supported by democratic donors. >> this is the problem with the republican party now. they want to go and push everybody away that doesn't fit their narrative. i have said it over and over again. we have lost the last seven out of eight popular votes for president because you keep pushing people away. trump says things.

american aren't stupid to believe what he says. the reality is who lost the house, the senate, the white house? donald trump, donald trump, donald trump. >> last night haley said while donald trump's criminal cases need to play out, she would pardon him if she was elected president. >> if you become president and donald trump's trials are still ongoing, would you preemptively pardon him without waiting for a conviction the way gerald ford did for richard nixon? >> no. i think everything needs to play out. i honestly think president trump would want that to happen. if he wants to defend himself and prove he has been treated the wrong way or whether it's political, i think he would want to fight for that. you only want to talk about a pardon after someone has been convicted, so i would assume we'd let that play out. >> if he were convicted, would you then pardon him?

>> i would pardon him. for me, the last thing we need is an 80-year-old president sitting in jail, because that's going to further divide our country. this is no longer about whether he's innocent or guilty. this is about how do we bring the country back together. >> let's go to new hampshire where we find former msnbc host and contributor to the washington monthly chris matthews in manchester this morning. we also have cohost of "the weekend" symone sanders townsend. we have reverend al sharpton and jonathan lemire, long suffering patriots fan back with us as well. chris, let's go to you first. we were trying to figure out yesterday you have a lot of guys in massachusetts and women who

know politics up there on a conference call, and they were trying to figure out what nikki haley was doing. a lot of people scratching their heads about what she's doing, because she seems to be in a position where she could win this thing, but she's not taking voters' questions, or at least she wasn't earlier this week. >> i think she's going to have a lot more events today. there's a character to each state. new england is a different culture. look at the history of this state. eisenhower coing in. hillary clinton making a stand against barack obama. bill clinton up here with the comeback kid. there's such a history of this.

this state loves to correct the mistakes made earlier. when a politician like nikki haley says they like to correct it, no, she was telling the truth. when a politician says the truth accidentally, they have to apologize for it. she's telling the truth. i think new england is going to correct what happened in iowa. i think you're going to see an upset here. it's going to be an interesting race. if she says something between now, say, and sunday, it starts to show she's got a little bit of humanity inside of her, the way hillary clinton did when hillary clinton spoke to that town meeting on saturday before the election. she talked emotionally about what the election was doing to her, and obama had gone ahead of his skis and said she's likable enough. that was big-shot stuff, and hillary called him on it and

pulled a big upset here. but you're right, she won't take questions from the press. i think the people of new hampshire have a character that is going to show itself. they love upsets up here. >> that's why, rev, ed goez, who conducted polls, but so many people on this conference call were saying she had this chance, she blew it. she's not talking to the press, she's not doing enough events. and here we have what chris just said, again, ed goez and a couple over people said this is what new hampshire does. new hampshire likes to self-correct. this race is far from over. as we were on the conference call, we got the word that nikki haley is going out there and

having six events today. you ran for president. talk about the importance of being out there, the importance of getting your name before the voters and in a place like new hampshire, the importance of meeting them, shaking their hand and answering their questions. >> it's very important. you must go out even though you may expect there may be people in the audiences that don't agree with you, maybe don't even like you. it makes you in the eyes of those on the fence, it makes you more palpable that you don't run from possible opposition or adversaries. the more you show yourself, the more you show yourself capable of being the leader of the western world. i think that her people are trying to hold her back, because

she's made a few mistakes in q & as and answers. if she made the general election, how is she saying to black voters that this country was never racist or that she forgot slavery was part of the civil war. i would have concerns because she doesn't do well in terms of answering questions. but she'd only get better if people roughed her up a little bit. >> this is a fair prediction to make, that if haley were to lose tuesday night somewhat decisively, like polls suggest she will, her race is over. even though her next state is her home state of south carolina, she trails badly in the polls there. i think there's a good chance she would drop out in order to spare herself the embarrassment of getting routed on her home turf. what would you advice be to the

haley campaign these next handful of days to come away with either a close loss or a narrow upset win in new hampshire? >> i think the haley campaign needs to understand where specifically they are campaigning. in the town hall haley parted in last night, there was a notable exchange with a voter that cited her ads talking about joe biden is too old to be president. the voter said i don't think that's language potential presidents should be using and talked about her targeting the age of president biden. before she answered, he said i want to caution you to think of the median age in this state before you answer. 1 in 5 residents in new hampshire is over the age of 65. i think the haley campaign has failed to understand that is, in fact, their demographic. these are the folks benefitting from social security and medicare. nikki haley is campaigning on

reforming the entitlement programs, as she calls it. she's talking about raising the retirement age. that is not getting the votes for seniors. i don't think it speaks to millennials in the state either. i do think they just need to take a step back, recalibrate and, to rev's point, take questions. you only get better when you put yourself out there, but you have to be prepared. i think what we've seen from the haley campaign is a lack of preparation for some of the barbs that are coming her way. she has to be a little bit inspirational. she's taking way too much advice from governor sununu. he sounds like a pundit every times he gets on television. nikki haley wants to be the president of the united states of america. she sounds like a pundit. >> that pundit has an approval

rating of 70%. >> yes, lovely man. >> that is a great point. you'll see politicians getting on the air and they'll try to be pundits. that's not what voters want. voters want what you're talking about. they want inspiration. chris, feel free, because, like you, i love new hampshire so much. the ghost of the making of the president 1960 are still there, still around there. but i also want to ask you about capitol hill and get your read of what's going on. you have republicans in the senate, some of the most conservative republicans in the senate, james langford, john thune, lindsey graham, all of these republicans saying we just

got the best border deal we will ever get, because we got leverage that we wouldn't even have over the democrats even if republicans took over everything in 2024. >> republicans in the senate are on board. >> it's on the table, and yet you've got the speaker of the house who keeps doing vladimir putin's bidding on ukraine, keeps voting against americans helping the ukrainians push back putin's russian invasion, saying, no, i don't care if all the republicans in the senate, i don't care if conservative republicans like dan crenshaw and others are for this bill. i don't want to even bring it up on the floor. how does that end up? you know the hill. you worked there forever. you know the white house. does the speaker end up getting rolled? do these five or six or seven republican extremists end up getting rolled by the rest of

washington? >> you know, you're getting to something there. when you're in public life at the highest level like speaker of the house, you have a chance to be bold and courageous and do something that 20 years later you say, i'm glad i did that. i had a choice between being a chicken and being a leader, and i chose to be a leader. i made a choice to stop the flow. it's the numbers that scare people. all you have to do is adjust the numbers. a leader can do that. lindsey graham can be crazy sometimes, but he's usually with the right crowd. they can do it once in a while, and you've got to rise to the occasion and say, i'm not going to be kevin mccarthy. i'm not going to be somebody running away with my tail

wagging. i'm going to be a leader. nikki haley did it when she took the flag down, the confederate battle flag. you've got to stand up and say -- those cops you were talking about a while ago, what they needed was a leader on site when those bad guys were in there. that's a leader. you take the hits, because that's your job. that's why you're called the leader. joe and mika, we all pray for leaders. we root for them. it's what we need. we really need leaders. >> reverend sharpton, speaker johnson seems beholden to the extremes in his party on immigration, the far right in the house and they're taking orders from donald trump, who doesn't want to remove this as an election year issue. the white house also for a time was anxious as well that if

they're too tough on the voter, they could alienate progressives or voters of color or members of the left. president biden is willing to take that chance. he feels like this deal has to get done. you have your finger on the pulse of the activist classes in the democratic party. are they going to be okay on this deal? >> i think it has a lot to do with how the deal comes down. i think president biden has met and talked to a lot of the progressive leaders in congress and some of us on how he sees that being done. i agree with chris' point. i remember as i was growing in

my career, one of my mentors said to me, you've got to make sure when you go to a bigger seat that your backside can fill the seat. i did the reverse. i shrunk my physical backside and tried to expand my political fortunes. >> that was a segue. symone sanders townsend, thank you for being a cohost on "morning mika". >> super excited. >> you were amazing. i'm wondering -- and we talked a little bit about this. we showed these house republicans acting like schoolyard bullies on "morning mika" leering and jeering at hunter biden, making a show of it, and now making failures of themselves by doing either trump's bidding or vladimir putin's bidding on a deal that

they have been complaining about getting forever. it reminds me of health care. >> absolutely. i was literally thinking this, mika. for people who are like what do you mean health care? i mean people campaigning on repealing and replacing obamacare, the affordable care act. then when republicans were in charge and had the ability in the house and senate to pass a health care bill, they didn't have one ready and couldn't get one done, which is why the affordable care act is still the law of the land to this day. i really think as long as the american people don't understand the nitty-gritty of what's going on, this little fight benefits the republican party apparatus. but this is why it is incumbent on democrats across the board to ensure they are being vocal and very specific. you know, president biden, his first bill that he sent to congress, he sent a slew of

bills to congress on his first day. one of those bills was an immigration bill. since that time, the original supplemental was like $13.6 billion that had to do with border security in addition to aid to ukraine, taiwan and israel. when we talk about border security, there are not enough judges at the border to adjudicate these cases. there are not enough cbp officials to man the station. there are just some functional things for the infrastructure of our immigration system at the southern border that are needed. congress has to act to do that. so i think there are progressives that are concerned about, quote, unquote, what the president will give away. i think they have to continue to keep the pressure up and be vocal that there are some things they are not going to accept. but i think the president, the white house and democrats understand they're looking at

the polling, 25 points down on immigration. you can't not do anything. at this point, it is republicans who are doing nothing. if they make that case that, they, we have a bill, we tried, we were willing to negotiate, and it was mike johnson and house republicans that wouldn't do the work. i'm concerned about those 18 republicans who sit in districts that joe biden won in 2020, because i don't think voters in those swing districts will care. >> again, they're giving joe biden this issue after dominating it over the past several years. symone sanders townsend, thank you so much. we'll be watching "the weekend" saturday and sunday morning 8:00 a.m. to 10:00 a.m. right here on msnbc. chris, just to underline what we've been talking about here, i love what you say about leadership. there hasn't been leadership in the republican party.

you had donald trump talking about the wall, the wall, the wall. republicans owned washington in 2017 and 2018. what did they say? we can't build the wall. the wall won't work. this is the 21st century. john cornyn, lindsey graham, all the republicans said, that's nonsense. it's the same thing on health care. they keep saying let's repeal and replace obamacare. it's been 15 years. they still have not presented a single plan. >> obamacare is the law of the land with record enrollment. >> and now we have this with the border. you have republicans saying, oh, we need tougher border security. they have, as conservatives in the senate say, the toughest and best bill they'll ever get on border security. again, these house radicals are saying no. talk about leadership. >> i think we need the president

to be ready to ram this home, because this is a great opportunity to show we wanted to fix the problem and they don't want to fix the problem and make them pay for this. 21 million people or something on obamacare, those people are dependent on it for the rest of their lives. they're so happy to have that program available to them beyond medicare and medicaid. they have a real health care program for their families that's real. i think they made a big mistake. they said they were going to get rid of something people do like and increasingly like. the border thing is trickier because there's such a big downside so far for the democrats because they haven't really stopped the flow of what's going on at the border. biden has to go on television and say i want this bill to happen, i really want it to

happen, i think we have to do it. i think everybody knows something has to be done and it's time for the president of the united states to say, i want to stop this problem, i want to fix the border, i want the republicans to join me in leadership. they have to do it. if he doesn't, he will lose the ball again. they'll go back to raging about the border again between now and november. >> this is an opening. he needs to take it. he's compromising with republicans in the senate. they are even saying this is the best border deal we'll ever get. >> they're totally cornered. chris matthews, thank you so much. >> tenth time up here. i love it. >> we'll see you on monday and tuesday. the world economic forum in davos, switzerland, wraps up today.

it brought together global leaders and over 60 heads of state together as war rages on two continents. news of high-stakes meetings between american lawmakers and diplomats hoping to rekindle a potential treaty between saudi arabia, israel and the united states. keir joins us from davos with more. what can you tell us? >> reporter: mika, i think one of the stunning outcomes of this week was seeing that saudi arabia is still prepared to publicly talk about normalization with israel even after the horrors of october 7th, even after what the saudi arabian foreign minister describes as the catastrophe of israel's invasion of gaza. when i sat down with the saudi foreign minister, what he outlined was some of the things that we know saudi wants, but

that he is publicly saying need to be wrapped into this. there needs to be a ceasefire, he says. there needs to be a strategic partnership with the united states. but in addition to that and most importantly, he says, at this point now saudi arabia would need to see a palestinian state. take a listen. >> what are your non-negotiables in some kind of a deal? >> i'm not going to discuss nonnegotiables, but we need to find a credible, irreversible path to a palestinian state. i think irreversible is the thing we need to underline, because that's been lacking in the past. what i'm hearing broadly in the international community, everybody believes the only credible solution for the long-term stability not just of israel and palestine is a palestinian state. >> reporter: just before he

spoke to us, benjamin netanyahu spoke publicly and once again rejected the idea of a palestinian state. not as long as i'm prime minister, he effectively said. here's one of the ironies of that. he'd dearly love to see normalization with saudi arabia. but he doesn't believe the majority of israelis would support a palestinian state after october 7th. that's one of many insurmount insurmountables that are still there. our colleagues at cnbc sat down with the iranian foreign minister, which in that interview he said that iran does not tell the houthis what to do. of course, we know about the connections between iran and the houthis, but it is a tricky relationship. but the saudi foreign minister

met with his counterpart from iran this week, and he was prepared to talk to me about that. take a listen. >> you met with the iranians in the past 24 hours. what did you tell them. >> obviously we discussed all of the issues of concern, and our message in private and public is the same, that we only work toward de-escalation. the region is already in turmoil. we don't need that to expand. our message to everyone, including our neighbors in iran, is that we need to work together towards de-escalation. >> reporter: of course, the saudis want iran to step back. that's not surprising. the fact that the saudi foreign minister sat down with the iranian foreign minister face to face, a few years ago you wouldn't have believed that. >> keir, it does seem out of this tragedy there is a possibility of consensus not

just between the united states and sunni arab nations, but even nations like iran. you touched on it and i love how you said it was shocking that the saudis would say publicly that they're still in this, they still want a two-state solution. they're still willing to work with the united states. that's what i've heard from other leaders across that region, that they expect the united states to be there with them side by side. they're not going to go in alone. but it's fascinating, isn't it, that we find ourselves aligned. what the saudi foreign minister told you is what joe biden would tell you in an interview as well. i think he's going to become even more public about this. there has to be a two-state

solution. if israel wants our support, that's fine, but there has to be a two-state solution. if there's not a two-state solution, benjamin netanyahu is basically saying what the baden administration is saying, this probably won't happen with netanyahu, so netanyahu must go. >> reporter: yes. to get deeper with that, joe, of course in the end ultimately depends on what the israeli people think. when i asked the saudi foreign minister about it, effectively what he said was it's up to the israelis. after october 7th, that's the big question, whether they are in any mood to accept something like that. certainly netanyahu says they aren't. what i think is stunning, another aspect of this is that there are people who would describe the situation now as the saudis trying to push for

stabilization and the instability coming from the israeli side. and there is, i think, a real danger of a rift between the biden administration and the israeli government. of course, as well as that, you have the ticking clock of the u.s. elections later this year and who will be the president of the united states when we talk to each other in a year's time. so there are so many factors. there are seemingly insurmountable hurdles here. there is hope. >> you're right. what seems insurmountable now, a year from now may look quite

differently. after the attacks of october 7th and with a 1-year-old hostage under the tunnels of gaza, who would expect them to say, well, yes, of course we'd love to have a two-state solution. but looking over the horizon we're seeing there's a lot that's possible with the region really coming together. >> keir simmons live in davos. thank you very much. coming up on "morning joe," we'll get the latest from the trial involving e. jean carroll. donald trump was not in court yesterday, but his presence still loomed large. you're looking at live pictures of reagan national airport in the nation's capital where a full ground stop due to the icy and snowy weather has just been lifted. here's a shot from snowy brownville, maine. brownville, maine.

look at the blue skies there. so pretty. >> that's the "morning joe" deer cam. pretty. >> that's the "morning joe" deer cam. [coughing] copd hasn't been pretty. it's tough to breathe and tough to keep wondering if this is as good as it gets. but trelegy has shown me that there's still beauty and breath to be had. because with three medicines in one inhaler, trelegy keeps my airways open and prevents future flare-ups.

and with one dose a day, trelegy improves lung function so i can breathe more freely all day and night. trelegy won't replace a rescue inhaler for sudden breathing problems. tell your doctor if you have a heart condition or high blood pressure before taking it. do not take trelegy more than prescribed. trelegy may increase your risk of thrush, pneumonia, and osteoporosis. call your doctor if worsened breathing, chest pain, mouth or tongue swelling, problems urinating, vision changes, or eye pain occur. ♪ what a wonderful world ♪ ask your doctor about once-daily trelegy for copd because breathing should be beautiful.

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e. jean carroll returned to the witness stand yesterday for the third day of the defamation damages trial against former president trump. trump was not in court due to his mother-in-law's funeral, but carroll's attorney played a clip from trump's remarks at a press conference on wednesday, attempting to show how the former president continues to defame carroll. during cross examination, trump attorney alina habba questioned carroll about her current income from her blog and seems to attribute carroll's increase in earnings to the, quote, fame she

received because of her connection to trump. carroll admits she is more well known after writing about the abuse, speaking out about it, but added she is also, quote, hated by a lot of people. i am horrified. reverend al, coming up on "politics nation" you'll be speaking to joe tacopina, the former trump lawyer. >> i'm very curious on what tacopina is going to say. we all knew him. we were a little surprised when he joined donald trump's legal team, but he believed everyone deserves a defense. i am very interested to talk to

him tomorrow about what made him leave. when you see how trump behaves in court where he grunts and makes statements that the judge has to reprimand him, any lawyer that has any self-respect probably does not want to sit next to him at the table, but i'll let joe tacopina speak for himself. i hope he comes back to the social justice cases that he is known and has fought for. coming up, no labels, which is preparing a potential third-party presidential ticket, is asking the justice department to investigate what it calls criminal efforts opposing its bid to get on the ballot. we'll talk to two of the group's leading members next on "morning joe." the group's leading members next on "morning joe.

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i think after the super tuesday when it's cleared out who's going to be the two and if you're a handicapping, betting person you would say joe biden is going to be the nominee for the democrats and donald trump will be. >> joe manchin still not ruling out a possible presidential run this year as part of a ticket put forward by third-party centrist group no labels. the organization's leaders announced they filed a complaint with the justice department over alleged efforts by anti-trump grou to keep no labels off the 2024 ballot. the complain calls on the doj to investigate, quote, a highly coordinated conspiratorial and often unlawful conspiracy involving individuals inside and outside government to deny americans their constitutional right to choose the leaders who represent them.

here now with more, no labels national cochair dr. benjamin chavis jr. and dan webb. explain to us what you're trying to accomplish with the justice department and the investigation there. and who ultimately would you want to put on the ballot to be a viable candidate? >> let me answer your first question. the reason why we sent an eight-page letter to the united states department of justice is to protect the voting rights of all of americans, is to prevent voter suppression, is to prevent the harassment, the threatening of harm to staff, to donors and even potential candidates that have been threatened by these groups. we live a democracy where everybody should have a right to

vote without intimidation and everybody should have the right to get ballot access without intimidation and harassment. that's why we've asked the united states department of justice to investigate these groups. it's very detailed and a lawyer can give some of the details, but that's why we wrote this letter. >> and dan webb, let's move now in terms of the aspirations of no labels. what are the candidates that you are considering putting out there? >> well, we're in a process right now of considering candidates, but i will say the fact is if we are denied ballot access, if we can't get a ballot line, candidates don't make any difference. so, yes, we obviously are focused on at the appropriate time selecting the proper candidates, but right now what dr. chavis pointed out is that the reason we've gone to the department of justice is we want

to get on the ballot. 65% of the american public want a choice. i can't answer why there is such a concerted effort to obstruct us when 65% of the american people want a choice. we're going to give them a choice. by the way, once we give the public a choice and we have selected candidates, it's okay to attack our candidates. there's nothing wrong with that. but what the law doesn't allow is right now as we're gaining ballot access under the law, people cannot engage in the activities where they are actually harassing, intimidating, threatening, engaging in fear to keep us off the ballot. i do not understand why that's going on, and we're trying to get doj to do a full investigation. that's why we presented a lot of evidence to doj in this letter. we're hoping they'll conduct full-scale investigation and get to the bottom of this and stop it. >> in response to the allegations made by no labels,

one of the groups named in the complaint, the lincoln project, writes on x in part, quote, no labels is a dark money group that is so consumed with its own quest for power and relevancy that it is willing to risk electing trump despite their own acknowledgment that he is a dangerous idealogue. another group, third way called the allegations baseless and frivolous. dan webb, what's your response to that? >> that response is an incredibly weak response. why don't they defend themselves on why they're engaging in intimidation and harassment? by the way, the idea that we will be a spoiler for trump, we have said -- i wouldn't be involved in no labels if that was ever going to happen. we're not going to do that. if we ever determine -- i tell you right now based on polling numbers that are public, it appears no labels would draw

votes from both democrat and republican parties, both of them in a pretty equal way. that's what you would expect to happen, which is why it looks like if we are allowed to get a ballot line and put candidates forward, it looks like we will win that race. we will actually get elected president of the united states and vice president, because when you have 65% of the american public that want a different choice, why would we not give them a choice, let them make the decision? by the way, the idea that we will be a spoiler for trump, why not just face up to the reality, let us have a ballot line, let us choose our candidates and let's see what happens. give the people the right to vote. i don't understand why they're trying to interfere with that. >> we need to push a little further on this, because it has been widespread belief by democrats that the no labels

effort putting forth a moderate candidate would, in fact, hurt president biden. again, can you clearly for everyone watching here today, because i know a lot of democrats are deeply anxious about no labels, what will you do if it looks like in the run-up to the election that your candidate will help donald trump become president? >> fine. that's a very good question. i'm glad you asked. first of all, i'm a democrat. we have democrats, republicans and independents all working together in no labels. the absence of bipartisanship, the absence of civility, that's part of the problem. that's why i was so proud when no labels established the problem solvers caucus in congress, which is bipartisan. but to answer your question, we are not a spoiler for donald trump. that's ridiculous, and it's a serious allegation that has no merit when it comes to no

labels. we work at state level getting ballot access even though we've been intimidated and harassed at various levels by the groups that are now complaining. i want to make clear for the record no labels is not putting this forward to be a spoiler for anyone, particularly donald trump. and then, of course, as my colleague attorney dan webb has emphasized, over 60% of the american people want a different choice in 2024. if the majority of the voting population wants better choices andso, you know, if the majority of the voting population wants better choices and more choices in a democracy, that should be happening. we don't live in an authoritarian, or at least not right now, we don't have an authoritarian government, an

authoritative society that denies the right to vote to all people, that denies the right to ballot access to all people, and that's what we're trying to overcome. >> okay, but dr. -- >> let me chime in on that question about trump, if i could. >> okay. >> look, we stated we will not -- by the way, the unforeseen events that may happen in this election cycle, no one can predict right now what's going to happen. no labels has been on the record, and people like myself and dr. chavis and others involved in leadership of no labels, if it turns out because of the evolving events, it actually turns out that it looks like we will end up in a position where we're drawing votes from one side and not the other, we're not going forward. that's never been our purpose. our purpose is to develop good candidates that can give people a choice, but we're not going forward under the conditions that our opponents are screaming and yelling about. we're just not going to do it. that's not what no labels is about. you've got people in no labels

like myself and many others that we believe that when the american public doesn't want either candidate, what's wrong with giving them a choice? why would we deny voters the right to a choice? and all these phony arguments, we'll be a spoiler, let's wait and see because we're not going to do it. we are just not going to put forward a ticket if that happens. >> i don't see how you can say we're not going to do it. what if it happens, what are just going to say let's pull our candidate? we feel we might be drawing from trump, so let's put the brakes on are right now. that doesn't make any sense. i don't know how that works. >> again, i'm going to -- i'm going to clarify because what does not make sense to you makes sense to over a million americans who have signed with no labels. it makes sense to the 14 states where citizens in those states have signed the petitions have abided by the law of those

states to get ballot access. this is about fundamental access to civic participation, and no group has the right -- it reminds me of the ku klux klan trying to stop black people from voting. >> i get that. i also think we're talking about two different things, and the two of you have said that if you find that your candidate is drawing from trump, you're going to somehow magically make the candidacy go away. that's different than -- >> no, that's not what we said. you're misinterpreting, that's not what dan just said. >> so what did he say? >> what i just explained to you is that we don't have a ticket right now. we're considering candidates, but we will not even put forward our candidates if we believe that it will -- first of all, we have to be convinced we can win, and number two, that we can beat and defeat both trump and biden. otherwise we're not going to run the ticket. so it's not like you're suggesting we're going to be

halfway into it and then have to withdraw. we will be able to evaluate this when all these events unfold in the election cycle, and we have a right to make a rationale decision. and if it looks like we can go forward, draw votes from both sides and win the election, but if we can't do that, we're not going forward at all. we're done. we're going to get out. we're not going to put candidates up. >> no labels national co-chair, dr. benjamin chavis jr. and former u.s. attorney dan webb, thank you both very much for being on the show this morning. so rev, what do you think? i think that the million people who signed on, what they're asking for is fair, but for some reason the whole thing makes me nervous. >> well, i have a lot of respect for dr. chavis. >> oh, me too. >> he's been a civil rights leader for many years. he and i have even gone to jail together on demonstrations. i grew up admiring him in the

wilmington ten, he's a little older than me. but i don't understand what webb is saying. how do you withdraw if you find out that you're taking away from one side rather than the other? i don't understand the logic of that. i agree there ought to be ballot access. i agree no one should be playing dirty tricks on this. >> me too. >> but i think that you need to really own that you're going to have a third party, and you're going all the way or you're not. but to say if we found one way or another that we're not going forward is very confusing at best, and i think that with this election, what we're risking with an outright autocratic candidate saying that i will build an autocracy, i don't think we have the option of taking chances this year. >> they also point to -- they also point to polling, mika, that suggests that americans, a lot of americans don't like this choice. and that's true, but that's

different than saying, hey, americans wish they had a different choice versus americans are going to back a specific third-party candidate. when they put a name on a ballot, that person is not going to get 60% of the vote, whatever they were suggesting, but rather draw from an existing voter pool, and the polling people point to suggests that candidate almost certainly will hurt joe biden more than donald trump. let's switch gears now in the last few moments we have, and football. the divisional round of the nfl playoffs kicks off tomorrow, will dominate the weekend for many. the detroit lions are one of the best stories of the season. last week they won their first playoff game in more than 30 years. and now on sunday, they host the tampa bay buccaneers for a shot at the nfc title game. nbc news contributing correspondent kaylee hartung joins us now from ford field in detroit. >> good morning, guys, there are still streamers in the rafters here at ford field, if last

weekend is any indication trks , it's going to be absolutely electric. it's a lot warmer and drier indoors than in the city of detroit right now. there were some big plays and bigger upsets during the wild card roupd. look for a weekend chock full of marquee matchups. >> the lions are roaring with momentum just as the buccaneers confidence soars. tampa bay traveling to detroit, underdogs again after their demolition of the eagles. >> this is the rookie trey palmer, and he is gone! >> the texans with rookie phenom c.j. stroud will go head to head with probably league mvp lamar jackson and the ravens in baltimore. the top seeded ravens are the heavy favorites, but the texans have defied expectations all

season. >> we believe in ourselves and trust in ourselves to win games and hopefully win this game. >> reporter: and a rivalry revival as the packers and 49ers face off in their tenth post-season matchup. green bay is the nfl's youngest team led by quarterback jordan love who's on a hot streak. >> a lot of people counted us out, and you know, we didn't care about that. >> reporter: the 49ers have not lost a playoff game at home in more than a decade. the divisional round saving the biggest showdown for last under sunday night-lights. for the third time in the last four years, patrick mahomes and his super bowl winning kansas city chiefs will battle josh allen and the buffalo bills in the playoffs. the chiefs have twice ended the bills season. this time mahomes will be in unfamiliar territory, playing the first road playoff game in his career. after weathering the fourth coldest game in nfl history last weekend in kansas city, speculation that taylor swift will once again travel to support her boyfriend chief's star travis kelce, and will she be joined by another member of

the kelce family, their brotherly bond at the center of their new heights podcast. this week travis reflecting on jason's last game amid reports he could retire. >> clearly a lot of emotion at the end of this game. i was feeling it. i know kiley, mom, dad, everybody that was at the game was feeling it. >> kelce mania, never stops. we are about three weeks away from the super bowl. the countdown is on. if you are more of a music fan than a sports fan, we've got some news for you. we've known for a while that usher would be headlining halftime, but just announced you're going to have reba mcentire, post malone and andra day participating in the pre-game festivifestivities. the super bowl has got something for everybody, right? >> oh, my god, yes, it does. kaylee hartung in detroit, thank you very much. all right, we have a few seconds for final thoughts. let's see, it's friday. happy friday, guys. but as we coast into monday and leading up to new hampshire,

jonathan lemire, what's on your mind? >> i'm going to stay with football for the weekend, and i'm going to be backing detroit and buffalo, two cities that have proud football cities who have never won a championship, either franchise, the lions, the bills have never won a title. i'd love to see them both win this weekend, head on to the title games, one step closer to a detroit, buffalo super bowl in las vegas. that would be a lot of fun. >> i'll be watching what happens over the weekend, mika, in new hampshire. i think that tuesday could make it where donald trump runs the table, and i think nikki haley has made enough mistakes that i think he will, so i'll be watching new hampshire while my friend jonathan is watching football. >> i'll get to new hampshire on monday. let's do football this weekend. >> i'll be watching your interview with joe tacopina, rev al. >> i appreciate it. >> that does it for us this morning, we'll see you all monday. ana cabrera picks up the coverage right now.