good morning, it's saturday january the 20th. i'm ali velshi. in three days, the three remaining candidates to the republican nomination will face off in the new hampshire primaries. rod desantis, nikki haley, and donald trump are all holding events throughout the state this weekend. in a normal presidential election year, this race would really be ramping up right now. we will be talking about momentum from iowa, how the independents will line up in the new hampshire and who would last through south carolina and make it to super tuesday, but this is not a normal year this. is the post trump era of american politics, and anyone who has been paying attention to the republican party has long since concluded that the twice impeached multiple indicted former president will be the last man standing. that is how thoroughly he has taken over the gop. the former presidents decisive victory in iowa monday resulted in the republican party consolidating its support for him even more. this week, trump officially secured the endorsement of more

than half of the republican members of congress and before all the votes were even counted in iowa on monday night, at least -- at least a fair, nick the gop house conference, there was already calling for the other candidates to drop out. this weekend, she is in new hampshire campaigning on the former president's behalf and maybe auditioning to be his running mate. also at a rally last night, trump received a key endorsement for one of his former 2024 opponents, the south carolina senator tim scott, who was ironically appointed to his position by then south carolina governor nikki haley. as was the case in 2016, virtually the entire gop is falling in line behind trump. nearly two thirds of iowa republicans say that they believe he would still be fit to be president even if he is fit committed of a crime. a similar responded -- that believe president biden legitimately run the 2020 election. a sign that trump's baseless big lie continues to have a hold on the gop. the response in these two poles were caucusgoers, and in general, caucus goers tend to

be among the parties most faithful members. but these results are consistent with everything we've seen over the last few years. donald trump supporters are right there with him, even as his rhetoric has become more blatantly fascist. they want what he wants. and the past year, trump is called the determination of the constitution. he says he wants to be dictator for a day. he's echoed language he used by hitler when claiming that immigrants are quote, poisoning the blood of our country, and quote. a poll conducted this month by cbs news and yougov found that 82% of republican registered republican voters agreed with that letter statement. the maga base has backed trump through every one of us norm shattering scandals, his popularity grows. it now appears that they to see themselves as intrinsically linked with the former president to the point of no return. at this point, most americans already have some sort of opinion about trump, but many americans also probably haven't paid close attention to his behavior and his speeches recently.

perhaps a little exposure therapy would be a good thing. as mckay coppins wrote in the atlantic this week, quote, these days trump exists and many americans minds as a hazy silhouette formed by preconceived notions and outdated impressions rather than as an actual person who is telling the country every day who he is and what he plans to do with a second term. directed by this problem, i propose a 2024 resolution for politically engaged americans. go to a trump rally, end quote. joining me now is mckay coppins, stop right of the atlantic covering politics, religion, and national affairs, an all four of the book ron, the reckoning. also sarah reuben, an opinion writer for the washington post and msnbc political -- how women save democracy from donald trump. welcome to both of, you thank you for being with us. mckay, i want to ask you about this. go to a trump rally, we have reporters who do that. this morning, ali vitali was there. but todd nichols was saying in the last hour, what do you do them?

because you're not necessarily going to convince people who are answering these questions through your empathy and understanding of it. so what is the goal of understanding why so many people continue to back donald trump in spite of everything he says? >> first of all, i think that if you are an opponent of donald trump, if you're worried about him getting back to the white house, it might, if nothing else, provide a sense of urgency to be there, to remind yourself of exactly what donald trump is about, what he is promising to do if he gets another term in the white house. you know, i think a lot of us have forgotten or even better to say, we have gotten good at turning him out. now maybe a lot of your viewers, they follow political news closely. they still are very turned into donald trump, and i think that most americans over the last few years have kind of accepted trump as just a reality of american life that they would rather not think about. and unlike in 2016 when all of

us were watching his rallies, you know, four hours every day, we can name everything that he said on the campaign trail. a single twitter post to kind of takeover news coverage for days. i think in the last few years, we have sort of started to see him as a distraction, and i think going to a trump rally or if there are other ways to familiarize yourself with him, that is fine, but going to a trump rally would give you a tactile sense of him and the movement he commands, and it will help you i think realize what is really at stake in this election. >> jim, people don't even want to watch clips of donald trump on our shows. the feedback we get when we do that. but i think in the it's a very important point. the urgency of trump, the potency of trump, the danger of trump, and i think mckay is right. people i talked to do treat him as a quirky abstraction as opposed to possibly the guy who's going to help oversee the demise of democracy in america. demise

of democracy in a>> well i thie going on. one, this speaks to how badly the mainstream media has covered him. they have normalized them, they have cleaned up the rhetoric so he sounds in a clip or he reads in print much more coherent than he actually is. it's only very recently that the mainstream media has been reporting on his really shocking to tell terry in claims. but of course he has been this way all alone, and i think because they have done such a bad job, because they have made and therefore to treat the republican party like the democratic party, this notion that he is not so bad, he is a cartoon character has set in, and that is on the mainstream media. that is on the failure to be honest inside with truth rather than having this false balance. and i think the second thing, why it's important go to one of these rallies, it's understand why he does have supporters. these people are part of a fascist cult, and let's be

honest, there are a lot of them but a lot of them does not mean that they are behaving logically or rationally. to the contrary, we've seen another fascist regimes that millions of people, sometimes even a majority of the country becomes intoxicated with a authoritarian figure, and these people are utterly irrational. if you speak to some of them, they will spit back these bizarro conspiracy theories. they actually believe and all of the mumbo jumbo that he tells them. and so i think it would be a wake up call about what these people are about, and, no we are not going to convince people who are part of the coal to switch. as you say, they are impervious to any kind of data, any kind of information. but what you have to do if you care about democracy is mobilize the people who already know that he's a danger and reaffirm and reeducate the people who are perhaps kind of flooding in the middle of the soft republicans, they're never republicans, about the danger of going back to trump, and i

think that is the job between now on november, and that is the challenge for the biden administration. i think you're right mckay, you're not making the point the people to go there and try to change people, but it is to understand that the energy, the anger, the grievance of these trump rallies, you can see how it can be intoxicating for some. some people literally follow donald trump around the country to attend his rallies, and there is something to be said for the degree to which he establishes what seems to be unbreakable, unshakable connections with his group of followers. >> right, so i think that is true, but i would add a caveat, because when i went to this trump rally in mason city, iowa a couple weeks ago, what struck me is first i think what you're talking about. there is this intense sense of community. it is almost religious, right? the people are there, they're wearing their maga merch, they are taking selfies together. they're singing along to the

very songs on the trump campaign playlist. there is a sense of identity wrapped up in these rallies that i think has been key to donald trump's support. but i will also say that, and i think the polls bear this out, there is a swath of republican primary voters who go to these rallies often for the first time to check it out, right? i talked to one of them. he was a young dad, he brought his six-year-old son, he had never been to a trump rally before, and he was sort of just curious to see what it was like. and i watched him throughout trump's speech, seeing how he was reacting to it, in this trump said these kind of outrageous things, i noticed that he started to drift backward towards the exit. by halfway through the speech, he was gone with his son. now i didn't get interview him afterward, i don't know what he was thinking, but i think that there are probably a lot of people who jen just mentioned who are normiepu right? who have sort of fallen into supporting trump because they see him as the better of two

evils or whatever. but i think that if they were to go to one of his rallies and actually see him in person, see what he's, like see what the things are that he is promising to his supporters, they might actually be startled and rethink their support of. him >> jen, you wrote about republicans following in line with donald trump. you also wrote this week about liz cheney and her ongoing effort to not just stop trump, but one other people about it. but i think today or last night tim scott, former senator from south carolina, got in line behind trump, and our suspicion is that everybody who runs against trump will ultimately just get in line behind him. talk to me about this. talk to me about the fact that there are significant, important right minded, good thinking conservatives who might still identify as republicans who see this danger. what does this fight look like for them? >> it is very stark, and you are right, the legions of cowardly people who simply want to go along to get along, who

want to be close to power, who want to save their own skin, is really jaw-dropping. people who had higher expectations in tim scott i think we're getting themselves. he is no better than the rest of them. he's no better then at least stefanik, who was also out there -- and trying to raise support for him. and so i think that if you are a normal republican and you are someone who wanted to be a republican because they like free markets or they light a strong national security, you should sit back and look at this aura show and say, to these people really represent my values? and there's another spot which i think is quite dangerous, and that is these people to say, okay, i'm not going to vote for trump, but i'm not going to vote for biden otherwise. that is really kind of self defeating. if you are not voting for the only guy who can beat trump, then in essence you are still supporting trump. and so voting for a libertarian, voting for jill stein, or no

labels candidate is the biggest cop out, it is simply another way for enabling him. when you do not vote for the only credible, the only possible alternative, you are moving donald trump one step to our that the presidency outright or some kind of absolute calamity in the house of representatives which is going to be an absolute free-for-all and make january 6th look like a picnic. >> thank you to both of you for your constant analysis on these things. i so enjoyed reading and getting smarter from both of your work. dark mckay coppins, staff writer at the atlantic, author of romney, a reckoning. jen rubin, author at the washington post, author of resistance how women save democracy from donald trump. israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu has vowed to wage war until wasn't to israel's reach absolute victory. the u.s. is ramping up efforts to push for peace. plus, whoever is in with the code of push under attack designed to intimidate librarians and we get libraries. that is meaning the velshi banned book club is taking a look at how insidious those attacks are. not just for the people of

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israel-hamas war. the gaza health ministry reports that nearly 25,000 people have been killed in the enclave since october 8th. according to the united nations, 75% of gazans are now internally displaced and nearly the entire population is at risk of famine. meanwhile, in israel, people are growing exasperated. on thursday, prime minister benjamin netanyahu held a news conference in dnipro in which he rejected the idea of a palestinian state and vowed to wage war until israel has reached, quote, absolute victory. the families of israeli hostages still held in gaza protested outside of netanyahu 's home earlier today from night until morning, demanding that more be done to negotiate the release of hostages held by hamas. israel says 132 hostages remain in gaza but 26 have died while

in captivity, and no hostages have been safely returned to israel since a short-lived agreement between israel and hamas at the end of november. meanwhile, there is of an expanded conflict in the region are growing. earlier today, iranian media allege that a israeli defy strike killed four officers of the iranian revolutionary guard, including a telegraph chief and his deputy. on friday, u.s. fighter jet struck houthi sites in yemen, shooting it anti ship missile launchers in towards the red sea. on the diplomatic front, the u.s. states is ratcheting up its work to find a peaceful solution in the region. president biden spoke to netanyahu on the phone yesterday in the first time in nearly a month about the future of the war and potential regional escalations. biden also discuss his vision for after the war and the possibility of a two-state solution with netanyahu still in office. the white house is hoping to achieve it much further reaching agreement. nbc news reported this week an on high level talks between american diplomats and

lawmakers and mohammad bin salman, the crown prince of saudi arabia. our senior investigative producer anna schachter writes, quote, they're ambitious goals to hammer outa framework for concluding the israel-hamas war, stabilize in the middle east, and pay blame the way for some form of palestinian self governance of the gaza strip, end quote. secretary of state antony blinken, senator lindsey graham, a bipartisan senate delegation of all arrived in saudi arabia to meet with the saudi crown prince. but the question remains of whether the israeli government will accept any path to a palestinian state in exchange for a peace treaty with saudi arabia. nbc's anna schecter joins me now. as i said, she's a senior producer for the nbc news investigation unit. she's joining us now from israel. anna, my old friend, thank you for joining us. tell me about this. you are the one who reported on this diplomatic flurry of activity earlier this week. >> it is wonderful to be with

you ali, as always. and here in tel aviv and around israel, you feel just how high the stakes are. israel is in the middle of a war and the rhetoric is hot right now. there is this high stakes negotiation happening in the background, and so conversations at very high levels are trying to find a pathway forward. and so even though you're hearing the prime minister come out and say, absolutely, no two state solution, you have to understand that here in israel, he is following the lead of the israeli public. just last week there was a poll that showed that the israeli public is not ready for that yet, and he is reflecting that and coming out strong. and remember, we are in the midst of this negotiation, and negotiations can be unpredictable. wars can be unpredictable. so right now what i'm seeing is all of these leaders are taking the strongest stance, and then we will just have to wait and see how the war progresses and

how all different sides who want to get what they want out of the deal, how their positions change and evolve in the coming weeks and months. >> anna, what we know about the fact that it sounds like there's been some outreach this week from american diplomats in the state department to other israeli leaders who are not benjamin netanyahu with the hopes that maybe someone else, that maybe there's not just a day after in gaza, but there is a day after netanyahu. this is typically not something that american diplomats have been doing. >> well our colleague andrea mitchell reported that this week, and that caused a flurry of consternation and upset here in netanyahu world because they were expecting to have a partner in the u.s., and for them, that was really disconcerting to see that. so what we are seeing now is

all sides of rejacket, in repositioning themselves, and a lot of public rhetoric. and so the press conference that you saw benjamin netanyahu give yesterday, he was, in a way, it appeared to be responding to those reports, taking a hard stance, and then you saw the phone call, which has not happened in a while. so there is a flurry of diplomacy, high stakes talks. it's all happening really in the last 72 hours. all happening reall>> anna, thg us. nbc's anna schecter for us in tel aviv. all right, coming up, we will take a look at how political issues from the 19th century are not front and center in the 2024 republican race, as one republican candidate said on the campaign trail this, week they quote, america has never been a racist country. t country. treat a migraine when it strikes and prevent migraine attacks, all in one. don't take if allergic to nurtec. allergic reactions can occur, even days after using. most common side effects were nausea, indigestion, and stomach pain. ask about nurtec odt.

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haley is once again getting slammed for the way that she's characterizing the history of race in america. just weeks after coming under fire for failing to lift slavery as the cause of the civil war, this week while campaigning in new hampshire, this week told reporters that quote, america's never been a racist country, end quote. when asked about that remark of a new hampshire town hall, she doubled down. >> i was a brown girl that lived in a small, rural town. we had plenty of racism that we had to deal with, but my parents never said, we live in a racist country. and i'm so thankful that they didn't, but i refused to believe that the premise of when they formed our country was based on the fact that it was a racist country to start with. i refused to believe that. i have to know, in my heart, and everybody's heart, that we live in the best country in the world, and we are a work in progress. >> it's wild that in 2024 we

are still debating simple facts about our nation's history. united states was literally founded on the racist institution of slavery. it prosper for many many decades on that institution. protection for that institution were written into the constitution. the white house itself was built with slave labor. the confederacy fought the civil war to preserve the institution of slavery. three quarters of 1 million people died in that war. yet somehow, according to nikki haley, america has never been a racist country. her words. meanwhile, this week president biden urged voters in south carolina to pay attention to another element of 19th century politics that has resurfaced in recent years, insurrection and what it could mean for the upcoming presidential election. jelani cobb, staff writer for the new yorker, tackled how these issues are playing out on the campaign trail in his latest piece titled, why are republicans still debating slavery and insurrection, end quote. he writes quote, the president issue now is not what caused the civil war but what we should have learned from it. january 6th, 2021, is not an

equivalent date in history to april 12th, 1861, but the radical republican leaders who lived through the civil war understood a principle that has been lost on their successors. that, if interested with power, leaders who commit assault on the national government once miguel attempt to do so again, end quote. jelani joins me now. in addition to working at the new yorker, he's an msnbc political contributor and the dean at the journalism school at columbia university. professor koch, dean cobb, thank you for being with. us nikki haley apparently didn't have any racism growing up in south carolina, so that is cool. [silence] >> hold on a second, jelani, we have to get your volume fix. there we go, we got you know, we got you. go ahead. >> one of the amazing things about that is the disparity with nikki haley's own words. and so if you read the speech

this year at the national press club explaining why she took down the confederate flag after the massacre in the -- church committed by white supremacist, we may add, she's very clear about the extent to which there is been racism in this country. now this is what someone was willing to say in 2015, that same person wouldn't come anywhere near those statements in 2024. but fundamentally, what we are talking about is marketing a kind of version of american history that conforms to what people wish had been the case as opposed to what history actually indicates had been the actual case. and so needless to say that the danger of not really talking about what happened in the past so that you can address the implications of it in the present. >> you know, one of the things, and i want a quote from something that you wrote in your piece. you said that the 14th amendment ratified in 1868 is, like the 13th and 15th

amendments, a part of the period when the republican party was fixated on preventing another disastrous insurrection like the one that had just cost them 700,000 lives. the 13th amendment abolish slavery in those circumstances. the 15th amendment enfranchise black men, implicitly creating a block of voters to counterbalance the power of former confederates in the south. section three of the 14th amendment makes explicit the republicans concerns about the pull potential threat posed by former insurrectionists. i read this because clearly republicans and the victors of the civil fully understood this problem enough to write it into the constitution, to make amends the constitution. but is there some generalized failure of reckoning about slavery in the civil war that has led us to where we are in 2023? led us to where we are i >> oh, absolutely. and you heard, that is exactly what i was making reference to in that speech, and not that i'm complimenting biden on his speech, but the fact of it is that that is where historians

are. pointing to the way in which the causes of the civil war, that conflagration the took over 700,000 lives, the causes of it were obscured almost from the minute that robert e. lee surrendered. people again creating all kinds of false euphemisms to quote the fact that they had fought to their last and for the ability to buy, sell, traffic, sexually assault, and abuse human beings. so what we see now are the implications of that lie being spread over generation after generation after generation. >> what fixes that? i mean, what do you do about that now? when somebody like nikki haley, who is much more mainstream than a guy like donald trump, when she says things like this that, as you said, 2015 nikki haley wouldn't say, are provably not true, how does one remedy this? how do you fix this?

and i will say that our interview are addressed it and tried to get her to straighten up her answer. she doesn't do that. >> so i think that the remedy of this is having this information easily available. it is not coincidental, in my mind, that we see the proliferation of these kinds of ludicrous ideas about the american past. at the same time, that is becoming increasingly difficult in the states across the country, including hers, south carolina, increasingly difficult to get access to books that people feel offend people sensibilities. however accurately may be. the telling the historical truth about the nation and the racial failures of it and so on. and so banning folks only further aggravates the problem. knowledge and actual true education is the person who has dedicated my life to education, that is the remedy. >> how do we deal with the fact that, and look, it's not for

you or me to tell people whether they experienced racism or didn't, but we both generally agree that that you did or didn't doesn't make this universal. nikki haley's view that she, and i know if it's true or not, if she didn't experience racism, i'm really happy for nikki haley and positive attitude that her parents instilled in her, but that is dangerous from a policymaking perspective disrespect that if it didn't happen to me, it didn't happen to anyone. >> yeah, and then also it obscures the fact that we have data as she points to these things. and i think if you have to commend the progress that has been made, the great sacrifice for the people who lost their lives in order to create a better country, and they have made improvements in this country. i think that something that we have to respect. the legacy of all the movies that came before us in order to appreciate. at the same time, the data will point to the stubborn ways in which there are racial disparities in our health care system, and our employment, and

our lifetime earnings, in child mortality and every kind of indicator that we can find that correlate to the categories of race in this country. and so we have to be able to address some of that, we have to be willing to confronted in the first place. >> jelani cobb, thank you for as always. jelani cobb is the staff are writer for the new yorker and a dean of the columbia journalism school. coming, up said it's a vivid north dakota landscape, -- the more boys and oil is a discovery of oneself. for taylor, much of that took place in public libraries both as a child and as an adult. off the page, he's fighting to preserve the safe spaces. then the velshi banned book club, we're taking a look at libraries in north dakota and a calculated attack threatening them. don't miss this conversation. help prevent covid-19 from breaking your momentum. you may have already been vaccinated against the flu, but don't forget this season's updated covid-19 shot too.

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give you a quick reminder that if you like what you see on velshi, you can find more of your favorite segments, stories, and interviews on one of my favorite social media platforms, youtube. head to youtube and searched velshi or just directly to msnbc.com slash rally. all of you favor conversations with lawmakers, it is of the velshi banned book club's, economic updates in one place. check it out, we'll be right back, you're watching velshi on msnbc. velshi o msnbc. mainly because i just love helping people. as i got older, it was just a natural part of aging, i felt that my memory was beginning to decline and that's when i started looking for something that would help. when i first started taking prevagen, i noticed my memory was so much better. just stuff seemed to come together and fit like a jigsaw puzzle in my mind. prevagen. at stores everywhere without a prescription. progressive makes it easy to save with a quick commercial auto quote online.

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brorby's north dakota hometown are living that working in the coal mines with oil fields. there's no stoplight, there's no grocery store, no motel. there are three charges with full abuse on sundays in a small library with one copies of mr. poppers penguins and mary poppins. for brorby, who grew up as one of the few gay children in the class of just 23 students, the library was a treasure trove in the safe haven. the library was the only way he

was going to be able to access any book. as an adult face in the trial of being outed by and unsteadiness of young adulthood, brorby found himself back and north dakota teaching english classes at his old high school. the library and books by amy tam, truman capone, and mary carter refuge once again. in his book, boys and oil, he writes quote, every monday through friday after school, i walked two blocks from bismarck high to the public library and stayed there until it closed. sometimes at the library, i would leave my carole and battle over the large glass windows. i would sit down, they're mesmerized at the changing light over the missouri river valley. the view was an ever-changing canvas of color and texture, something that, though shifting, helped me feel rooted to the reality that somehow, i was going to get out of my parents basement, end quote. taylor brorby isn't the first person nor the last to search for help in the pages of a book or safety in the library stacks. but someone heading to the

local north dakota library today, tomorrow, or a year from now will not encounter the same kind of library that brorby new. north dakota's libraries are under attack. last year, two pieces of state legislation took aim squarely at libraries and librarians. the first, house bill 12:05 prohibits public libraries from lending or even possessing books that contain explicit sexual material, and quote. the bill offers vague clarifications about how to determine appropriate age and maturity or what even constitutes sexual material, yet it's still passed and is now law in north dakota. this leads books of all genres, literary merit, and topics vulnerable. meanwhile, senate bill 20 306 sought to impose criminal liber liability on any librarian -- when miners could find them. that bill did not become law, it was vetoed at the last

moment by north dakota governor doug burgum, but that narrow win is nothing to celebrate. it is just the start of what is to come. the next bill will have tighter language or clearer guidelines or whatever is needed to pass. and it will pass. legislation like this has been introduced or has already passed it states like indiana, mississippi, montana, texas, west virginia, and wyoming. whether they were enshrined in the or not, these two bills have already done their job. libraries across north dakota are now self censoring, choosing not to keep books that could leave them vulnerable to threats, angry parts of parents, or moms for liberty members. two years ago, brorby went back to north dakota, this time to speak at the north dakota library association's annual conference. the theme was, libraries, the place for everyone. although brorby's books have not been banned, his memoir boys and oil: growing up gay in a fractured land is just the kind of literature that could be targeted. it is the kind of book that would make any gated from rural america know that his story is

worth telling, that their life is worth living. it is the kind of book that brorby should have been able to read and his local library all of those years ago. right after the break, i will be joined by taylor brorby, author of boys and oil: growing up gay in a fractured land. this is the velshi banned book club and we will be right back. ght back prevent my migraine attacks all in one. don't take if allergic to nurtec. allergic reactions can occur even days after using. most common side effects were nausea, indigestion and stomach pain. talk to your doctor about nurtec today. nexium 24hr prevents heartburn acid before it begins. get all-day and all-night heartburn acid prevention with just one pill a day. choose acid prevention. choose nexium.

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i'm joined now by taylor brorby, assistant professor at the university of alabama, advocate for access to literature and author of boys and oil: growing up gay in a fractured land. taylor, welcome, thank you for being with us. >> great to be with, you ali. >> i want to start with a quote new york times op-ed called the real reason north dakota is going after books and librarians. let's be honest, it's not the venous to myelodysplastic way to come for first, it spoke with lgbtq stories, or books by lgbt authors, the kind of looks that it provided so many queer ung people with a lifeline when they needed it most. i don't know where i would've ended up if i couldn't read my way out of despair. my heart breaks to think of all of the kids now who won't have that option. we talked a lot about the power that books actually have to save a life on this show, but as an actual gay man who actually turned to libraries for more than once in your life you have a particular perspective on that. >> they have been the bedrock of what has helped me navigate

this complicated world that we're living in currently, ali, and definitely growing up in a culture where we don't often talk about queer people, queer lives, books are models for us about who we could be or what lives we could lead, and that is been so important for me both as a writer and as a young person. >> taylor, i know your book boys and oil: growing up gay in a fractured land has not been banned, as i mentioned. but i do want to talk a little bit about it though. you write so vividly about the landscape of north dakota. i want to read a short passage. the perea grew up on teaches you to notice, to pay attention -- the yoke of the sun as it slides across the dome of the sky, streaking the world orange and indigo, the switch of grass in the afternoon breeze, the screech of it grackleà,. end quote. your internal struggle and you're longing for a community it was all the more poniente, juxtaposed by these

descriptions of a nature in which you grew up. i'm a large-scale that, the book helped illustrate how and why victims do thrive and rural and red states like north dakota. d rura and red states lik>> what we sey sun issue in the state of north dakota. we have the moms for liberty, and we have the sons of liberty, and these groups are anti-liberty when you look at their practices. sort of led by white nationalists who want us to live in a narrow world, and north dakota is the testing grounds for the nation's worst ideas. it is the least visited state, and so it is a perfect landscape to try this legislative bills. i mean, the senate bill that failed, ali, there is language and they're about imprisoning librarians. to think that the governor vetoed it. one person president librarians from being imprisoned in the state in this country.

>> and that is where the starts to get absurd. we've already seen the attacks on teachers. we've seen attacks on librarians. most of them study a great deal to become librarians and understand how to curate for young people. a young man like you welcome to a library in says, i really liked this book by taylor brorby and the library is equipped to say, i have something else for you. this concept of curating for people in need for certain literature has become associated with grooming and sexualizing people and making people gay or black or hispanic or whatever it is that books make you. >> it seems i've been reading a lot of straight literature throughout my life, ali, and somehow it just hasn't sunk in. you know, if literature had the power to change who you are at base, we would see a lot of confused people in this society rather than seeing a literature that reflects the diversity of the country that we live in. i mean, let's be honest. this legislation was written by

buffoons who did not pass high school english class. >> i think the issue there is that a lot of these book bans, and a particular north dakota, i read an article about how this went down in this legislature. there are sort of a shock value to it, right? there's things that one can pull out of context out of your book or any book about almost anything, including romeo and juliet, and say see, it's all perverts? >> i mean, this is becoming such a boring discussion naturally for me, ali. these been a temps are not being written by people who actually read books. if they were, we would see a wider variety of texts being challenged. we see the same passages pulled out time and again, so what doesn't work in texas what work in virginia. it is led by just a focus concerted effort by a tiny group of people whose -- are raised that the world might conclude people who are different than they are.

>> i agree with you, born conversation. we're in conversation to you, to me, to my colleague joy reid, who had the moms for liberty cofounder tiffany justice on her show last night on the readout. they were discussing one of the race for's books muted on the velshi banned book club, george johnson's memoir, all boys are blue. in the context of book banning, and i want to play you a little of how this went down. >> what is the expertise that you have and other moms for liberty advocates have to decide that a book, an award-winning book, like all boys aren't blue, isn't appropriate for students to read? >> what a tragic story of a young man who's mainly raped by his adult family member. so, you have incest, rape, pedophilia. joy, you said you let me answer -- >> shirt, please do. >> in what context is a strap on dildo except-able for public school? i mean, that's my question to you. tell me what the context around the strap on bill though, the rape of a minor child by a

teacher -- >> hold on a second. one moment. so, now you've asked me a question. i'm going to answer it. well, who is the main character? what's the name of the main character in all boys are blue? >> you're asking right now? >> you just gave me a very specific information about this book, so you're presenting herself as somebody expert. hold on, who's the main character in the book? >> the main character is the author. >> what's his name? >> george, i believe. >> that clip says all of, other than the fact that she likes to say below a lot. >> it's true, i think she needs to go back into the velshi loophole she crawled out of. >> this house is a whole thing about how if you read the book and want to debate the book, maybe they're people who should be debating books, no question that books should all be debated and discussed on shows like this, in both clubs, libraries. in classes, in school. we are trying to take that away without knowledge of what is in the book. so in some places, these bands like we're talking about in north dakota, it is like what

this woman was saying to joy, it's words that are in the book without the context of why george m. johnson needed to write about rape, why you need to write about the things you need to write about, so that others are informed. >> i mean, books provide us not only information, but models of how other people have survived. how to help us feel less alone in who we are or learning about other cultures. i mean, north dakota doesn't have a world-class symphony orchestra. growing up, i could at least check out cds from the library, from some of the world's best orchestras. libraries and books. just they offer so many free resources and i think that's what's at base here, ali, for these groups is that libraries are really the heart of democracy. they are a reflection of the society in which we live and if we start censoring books, winnowing down the type of texts that are offered to the public, that mislead's us and

is a successful path towards fascism, if we're being honest. >> taylor, how do those of us who just, again, going back to the idea that it's a boring argument. the only problem is, other people are doing it. so, how do you fight it? >> you fight it by raising your voice. we each have a voice and i've been so grateful to the publications that have allowed me to share mine. people need to be speaking up. they need to be going into their public libraries and demanding much more of their library boards, in particular. i mean, a library in western north dakota last year wanted to have a -- live display during june and was forbidden from doing it by the library board. the library board discouraged that same library from celebrating banned book weeks. we need people with moral courage to enter the fight, to run in our local elections, and to say, this is enough. enough is enough. >> we have, on this show,

future people including in bucks county, pennsylvania, who have done that. the regular people have said, i have a voice. i can vote, i can run, i can support candidates, it's great guidance. taylor, thank you for being with us. we appreciate talking to you. >> my pleasure, ali, thanks so much. >> thanks to the newest member of the velshi banned book club, taylor brorby. author of boys and oil: growing up gay in a fractured land. that does it for me. thank you for watching. catch you back here tomorrow morning from 10 am to noon eastern. don't forget, velshi is available as a podcast. follow and listen wherever you get your podcasts like i wear that vest whenever do the pockets. check out your favorite velshi segments on youtube. head to msnbc.com slash ali and stay right where you are. the katie phang show starts right now. e phang show start right now. i am katie phang. live from telemundo studios in miami, florida. and here is the week that was. >> my biggest expense is probably legal fees. fortunatel