future people including in bucks county, pennsylvania, who have done that. the regular people have said, i have a voice. i can vote, i can run, i can support candidates, it's great guidance. taylor, thank you for being with us. we appreciate talking to you. >> my pleasure, ali, thanks so much. >> thanks to the newest member of the velshi banned book club, taylor brorby. author of boys and oil: growing up gay in a fractured land. that does it for me. thank you for watching. catch you back here tomorrow morning from 10 am to noon eastern. don't forget, velshi is available as a podcast. follow and listen wherever you get your podcasts like i wear that vest whenever do the pockets. check out your favorite velshi segments on youtube. head to msnbc.com slash ali and stay right where you are. the katie phang show starts right now. e phang show start right now. i am katie phang. live from telemundo studios in miami, florida. and here is the week that was. >> my biggest expense is probably legal fees.

fortunately, that is okay. we have a lot of cash, we have great assets. >> governor desantis, i want to present to you this participation trophy. [laughter] now, i'm probably you're probably not going to win the election, right? but we're proud of you for trying. >> as of this moment, we are going to spend suspends presidential campaign. >> we are not a racist country, brian. we've never been a racist country. coach, jerod mayo. [laughter] >> lessons that i've taken from bill. hard work works, all right? hard work works and that is what we are all about. >> law enforcement response of robb elementary school on may 24th, 2022, and in the hours and days after, was a failure. >> it was even seen slamming his hand on the table and muttering, quote, this is a con

job. that's within earshot of the jury and the judge, who at one point, has a threatened to kick him, the civil defendant, out of the courtroom. >> that's a nasty man. he's a nasty judge. he's a trump hating guy. >> the supreme court's 40 year old precedent known as chevron defense is not about your local gas station, but doing away with it could have life -altering consequences. we've got elie vessel with the latest on why the supreme court was a mistake and how justice samuel alito is trying to play us all for a fool. ♪ ♪ ♪ and a good saturday morning to you all. donald trump spent the bulk of the week traveling between campaign events and courtrooms, making his presence known more as the court jester, as the second defamation trial of e. jean carroll got underway. in the meantime, that's not the hottest legal show in town. as we await the d.c. court of appeals decision on trump's claim of presidential immunity,

the supreme's held oral arguments on two idat cases that could upend regulation as wkn it. year old precedent where a 4 federal judges grant fede agencies latitude on how to interpret legislative statutes. judges are supposfoll a two-part process. one, examinth congressional language and if the inte clear, the matter is settled. but tthe language is ambiguous, on the ruling court must defer to that agency on how the law should be implemented. essentially, ask the experts. and without the chevron deference doctrine in place, everything, and i mean everything in your life, could be affected. joining me now is elie eating mystal, justice correspondent at the nation. the host of the -- author of allow me to retort, a black guys guide to the institution. elie, like i tweeted, you've

got four more hours of sleep, so i know you're going to bring the heat this morning. but let's settle down and let's talk about what happened this week in the supreme court. you wrote a piece in the nation talking about how this is the greatest paragraph since the early 18 hundreds. but explain very quickly to our viewers why they should care so much about the chevron deference doctrine. >> okay, so congress is going to pass a law, right? we vote for congress people, so we have some -- on what laws they pass, right? but those laws are going to have gaps because congress can't think of every possible iteration of its laws and also, you know, congress is sometimes incompetent, right? let's say congress passes an act, a clean water act. congress is not going to define what water is, what clean is, exactly. it's going to leave it to the experts at the epa to make the fine decisions of, like, well, how much mercury does, is allowed to be in the water? and how many three headed fish should there be next to the nuclear power plant, right?

these are experts factual based decisions that the epa is going to make that congress does not make. the epa making those decisions is also cool because guess what? the epa is run by appointees of the president, which i get to, again, vote for. what the supreme court is trying to do is to take the decision-making power away from the epa and give it to themselves. so that neil gorsuch gets to decide how much mercury is allowed to be in the water and brett kavanaugh gets to decide how many compensations are entitled to if your arm gets cut off at work. clarence thomas, he gets to decide what ethical -- should matter instead of the s.e.c.. that's the power they want. that is the power that they're trying to grab and they're trying to grab it from you, and me, and everybody watching, because, guess what? we don't get to vote for those guys. we don't get to vote for neil

gorsuch, we don't get a vote for clarence thomas. we get a vote for the epa and congress, and it's those people who are taking the power away from us. >> we also don't get the vote to get them off the bench because they have those coveted lifetime appointments. i mean, elie, i want to put this into your perspective. over 17,000 cases have been decided under the chevron deference doctrine. so, one of the good points that justice alito kagan brought up during his arguments is, we could literally see, re-litigation of those 17,000 cases and what makes matters worse, we could see inconsistent ruling coming from different judges in different jurisdictions on concepts that are applicable for all americans, correct? >> yes, kagan said that, ketanji brown jackson brat of the fact that it would just simply be her words in practical and chaotic to move chevron deference. you know what the conservatives it? they laughed.

i am not making -- conservative super lawyer paul clements. so, of course, we weren't going to overturn 17,000 precedents, we're just going to return this one and the conservatives on the court had a big chuckle about it. they left and i counted three times over the course of the hearing as they joked about ending the administrative state. it's funny to nominate funny to them because again, katie, they have unassailable, unaccountable power. as i wrote, the supreme court, that wasn't an oral argument that you are listening to. that was a coronation your listening to as the supreme court took the crown, placed it on their head, as said come at me, bro. >> before your interview, i told the viewers there's a reason why justice samuel alito tried to play us all for a full. he actually took the position during these oral arguments, elie, that this chevron deference doctrine is not necessary anymore because judges like him, they don't impose their personal kind of

policies or, excuse me, personal beliefs into policies. tell me why the quote, unquote, liberal justices on the scotus didn't laugh out loud when alito said something like that. >> probably because they were too busy choking on their own bile, right? alito literally argued that in 1984, judges would use our own personal policy preferences to shape the law, but judges like him in 2024 no longer do that. that is the family to who use his personal policy grievances to take away a woman's right to choice. that's the same alito who imposes personal policy preferences on college admissions, to take away voting rights act. that's to take away affirmative action, and that's the same illegal uses policy preferences to determine voting rights acts, gun safety regulations. that guy said oh, i don't use my personal political preferences anymore. it was ridiculous, but it also shows the conservative flip-flop on this issue because alito was for chevron deference,

before he was against it. the difference is, in 1984, what are we talking about? we're talking about the reagan era epa. you know who is running the reagan era apa? neil gorsuch as mom. and anne gorsuch, trying to destroy the epa from the inside, out. in 84, republicans like chevron deference because they thought they would control the executive branch forever. now let's fast forward 40 years, republicans understand, it's easier for them to control the courts than to control the executive branch, so they want the courts to take the power. again, away from the people. >> so, when it fits the purpose for conservatives, they will deploy the judiciary when it fits the purpose of conservatives, they will deploy the executive office when somebody like donald trump, and at the end of the day, they sit back and they chuckle along the way. elie being missed all, this is the reason why i needed you here, so americans could understand why this is such an

important case. thanks for being here again, and getting us started, i appreciated. >> thanks for having me. >> coming up after a quick break, the funding fight inside the temporary legislative deal on capitol hill to keep the governments lights on, at least until march 1st. plus, decision 2024. we are live in battleground first nation new hampshire, with just three days to go until the republican primary that can dash nikki haley's dreams. there is much more to come on the katie phang show, so don't go anywhere. the katie phang show, so don't go anywhere. go anywhere. help prevent covid-19 from breaking your momentum. you may have already been vaccinated against the flu, but don't forget this season's updated covid-19 shot too. ma, ma, ma— ( clears throat ) for fast sore throat relief, try vicks vapocool drops. with two times more menthol per drop, and powerful vicks vapors to vaporize sore throat pain. vicks vapocool drops. vaporize sore throat pain. students... students of any age, from anywhere.

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has been averted again and at least for now, again. and it's all thanks to a bipartisan stopgap continuing resolution that was passed by congress and signed into law by president joe biden just hours before funding was set to expire friday at midnight. the six-week deal kicks the can down the road until only march 1st, when house speaker mike johnson will, once again, have to attempt to coalesce on

ungovernable majority with hard right republicans showing no signs of relenting on their list of absurd demands. joining me now is nbc news reporter, gary grumbach. gary is in d.c. for us. what's the latest on capitol hill on that stopgap bill that will kick the government funding through at least march 1st? >> katie, our viewers would be forgiven if they thought this just happened because it did in november. it happened before that again in september. this is the third time that this has happened and the real reason here is because they can't figure out how to get 1.6 trillion dollars, which is the amount of money that all federal agencies get here in the u.s., into 12 different bills, to be able to pass them and actually fund the government. there are a couple of reasons for this. first, speaker johnson, speaker mike johnson, just got the job late last year. he still figuring out how to work with both the hard right conservatives and also the liberal democrats trying to get everybody into one happy family. the second reason, really, is just the schedule.

they passed one stopgap bill just before thanksgiving. they went on their thanksgiving break, they came back, passed a couple unrelated bills, went on a more than month long christmas holiday break, and then they came back now and are realizing, they have so much more to get done and not a whole lot of time to do it. not a whole lot of political capital to do it because, of the third reason, which is, this is not the only thing that congress wants to get done this year. they also are really working towards a spending bill as it relates to ukraine, israel, and border funding. so, a lot happening here on the hill and we are told by members of congress that they may need one more stopgap bill before the march deadline to make this actually happen. katie? >> this is becoming a little bit boy cries wolf, a little bit, gary. i've got 30 seconds left. i do want to ask you quickly, any kind of chatter about getting house speaker mike johnson out of that seat again? >> there is a little bit of chatter from people like representative marjorie taylor greene, but beyond that, it's really not something that's being widely spoken about.

katie? >> gary grumbach, so happy to see you. thank you for joining us live from capitol hill. i appreciate it very much. and we are actually dealing with another battle that is going to be brewing, but it's going to be taking place in the very cold new hampshire. and turning now to the 2024 presidential race and the countdown to that new hampshire primary, this weekend, the three remaining major republican candidates are crisscrossing the granite state, hoping to shore up a victory on tuesday. with donald trump poised to coast to another victory, it's a do or die time for ron desantis and nikki haley. if either of them hope to have a path to the republican nomination going forward. joining me now from laconia, you hampshire, is nbc news correspondent, shaquille brewster. shaq, my friend, it's good to see you. that time is ticking, winding down until that primary on tuesday. what are you hearing from voters on the ground there? >> they are taking their time, katie. i will tell you, we came to have a little bit of fun this saturday morning, saturday

afternoon now, come into one spot and what's been a bellwether town here in new hampshire. talking to folks in between rounds of bowling or as they've been going through the arcade. one thing i continue to here is how many undecided voters there are. people who were saying, they're going to wait until the very last minute to make a decision. one lady joked to me that she's not going to make a decision until the next three weeks. i said ma'am, you have three days until this election. you need to come on and decide on a candidate. but you know, you look at polling coming into tuesday's primary, you see nikki haley still trailing donald trump in this crucial state by double digits. but in a sign of hope for her, you see among those undeclared or independent voters here in new hampshire, she's leading among that group. that group is important because they're hard to pull. in the state, independent voters could pick up a democratic ballot or they can pick up a republican ballot, and influence that race. i want you to listen to what one undeclared voters told me

here just a couple of minutes ago. >> have you made a decision yet? >> not really. >> you're undecided right now? >> yeah, well i'm undecided. >> the mail is just clogged with all kinds of flyers for both sides, really. but i think for the republican side, much more. the law is time to change and i think that we're kind of both in the same boat where, you know, we're not hard-core one direction or the other. we want what's best for the nation. like a lot of people think. >> and when you talk to folks about the issues that they care most about, you hear over and over, the economy. you hear women's rights sometimes, you hear also foreign policy. all those wars that are going on overseas, those are definitely at the top of mind for voters. i will tell, you on the canada side, you know, candidates, they're feeling the pressure. they're getting into this final stretch. donald trump, having a major rally tonight, hoping he can

capitalize on that momentum. on that endorsement he got from tim scott last night, and the nikki haley with some four events across the state today. she is hitting the trail as well, doing what she can to close that gap. ron desantis is not here in new hampshire. instead, he will have an event in south carolina. a sign of how well he believes that he is doing in this state when you look at polling, he hasn't been getting much traction, katie. >> unreal. nbc news correspondent shaquille brewster, my friend, it's good to see you. thanks for being here. and joining me now for more, susan del percio, republican strategist and an msnbc political analyst. susan, so much to kind of true over here, right? so yesterday, senator tim scott announcing his support for donald trump. something that both trump and nikki haley had reportedly been trying to court over the last week. little known fact or maybe as well known by now. nikki haley actually appointed tim scott to his senate seat back in 2012. clearly, no good deed goes unpunished, but really, how much this tim scott support

really matter at this stage in the race? >> it's not so much that tim scotts endorsement will influence voters, it just shows how much donald trump has this wrapped up. and by coming to new hampshire and doing what he did with the endorsement, i think he had the first flight in florida, then up to new hampshire. he spoke very briefly. but it's telling nikki haley and ron desantis, this is not going anywhere. this is going towards trump's way and you should probably read the handwriting on the wall. so, >> i want you to take a quick listen to trump last night, and this was literally last night. he is apparently confusing nikki haley with nancy pelosi while he was talking about the january 6th attack. take a listen. >> you know, nikki haley, nikki haley, nikki haley. you know, did you know they destroyed all of the information, all of the evidence, everything? deleted and destroyed all of it? all of it.

because of lots of things, like nikki haley is in charge of security. we offered her 10,000 people, soldiers, national guard. >> i mean, susan, he said her name like, i counted it, six times. he, as in donald trump, he's mixed up obama and biden in speeches as well. do republican voters care at all? i'm not talking just new hampshire, i'm talking across the country. do they care at all about these sort of guests? especially given what trump has definitely been doing, which is his level of protection when he goes after joe biden. >> i don't think, really, the primary voters care one bit. some republican voters will care. this could be an important part, come the general election. but as we know with donald trump, he doesn't look, you know, a week down the road. he can only look, you know, to what tomorrow looks like and the battle in front of him. >> so, nikki haley, i'm giving her a little bit of credit. it's very small, very small. finally going after donald

trump, hitting him in her speeches on the campaign trail, also responding to him on social media. i want you to take a quick listen to her this week. >> the reality is, who lost the house for us? who lost the senate? who lost the white house? donald trump, donald trump, donald trump. >> i mean, chris sununu there, right? sitting there, not in his head. but here's the thing, there are three days until this crucial primary for nikki haley. she has been crisscrossing that state, trying to gain as much support as she can and to whittle down that gap between her and donald trump. but is this newfound, i've got the courage, nikki haley, just too little, too late for her to go on the offense? >> it's a lot little, a lot to lay. that was an argument she should have been making from when she got into the race. the polls have always shown the fact that haley was one of the more competitive republicans against joe biden, especially when donald trump was weaker in the beginning of last year.

but at this point, haley not beating desantis in iowa, coming in third, there is a lot of hope on team haley that she could surpass desantis and that would bring her even more momentum going into new hampshire. eight days later. it did not happen. there was no boomerang effect, as a matter of fact, it was new hampshire that got her momentum going into iowa, more likely. and even on her return to new hampshire, she didn't come in, to the overnight rally. she didn't have a lot of energy behind it. i think, frankly, she knows that this isn't going to go her way. they've already lowered expectations. if nikki haley doesn't win new hampshire, there is absolutely zero path for her and she probably should step out before she gets really embarrassed in south carolina. >> which is kind of wild, right, susan? because that's her home state and then we heard from shaq brewster, desantis is not even making an appearance in new hampshire and if you see what those poll results are, 7% that he's polling.

you know, when is ron desantis going to accept that participation trophy? do that concession and say, i'm out? >> well, it's interesting because ron desantis is a potential 2028 contender for the republican nomination. i know, we may have to -- >> know more! no more. please. >> at least it won't be donald trump no matter what, but that being said, how many losses does he want to have under his belt before he starts that campaign? so to me, i don't think it is likely, but i think it's possible that he drops out even before new hampshire. maybe on sunday or monday and that way, at least he gets out while he only lost iowa to donald trump. that could be part of the thinking. he will lose nevada. we don't talk about nevada much because there are two things going on there, there's a primary first and then a caucus. the caucus is where you get the delegate. and only desantis and trump are in the caucus.

nikki haley will win the primary there, she's the only major candidates still on the ballot. but again, so he goes into south carolina, four losses. whoever is advising him, if they're worried about looking forward and not just collecting a paycheck, they would tell him to get out as soon as possible. >> susan del percio, i think they've been telling run desantis for a long time to get out. thanks for being here. i always appreciate your analysis and insight. >> my pleasure. >> and coming up next, was it worth it? i've got my own thoughts on the lawyers in trump world. many seemingly all too happy to trash the reputations to do the legal bidding of donald trump. my commentary is next. commentary is next. footlong at subway. like the new deli heroes. buy one footlong in the app, get one free. it's a pretty big deal. kinda like me. order in the subway app today.

this election is a choice between kinda like me. results or just rhetoric. californians deserve a senator who is going to deliver for them every day and not just talk a good game. adam schiff. he held a dangerous president accountable. he also helped lower drug costs, bring good jobs back home, and build affordable housing. now he's running for the senate. our economy, our democracy, our planet. this is why we fight. i'm adam schiff, and i approve this message.

alice loves the scent of gain so much, she wished there was a way to make it last longer. say hello to your fairy godmother alice and long-lasting gain scent beads. part of the irresistible scent collection from gain! so, there is an old adage. associate with men of good quality if you assume your own reputation, four it's better to be alone than in bad company. well, if that is the case, than donald trump's lawyers will never be alone. unless you think that these

lawyers are simply the collateral damage from being in trump's world, think again. because each and every one of them passed, and present, has made a conscious decision to represent the twice impeached, quadruple indicted disgraced one term ex president of the united states. they've gone in, eyes wide open, with full knowledge of the scope of the allegations about trump's unscrupulous and, in some cases, criminal conduct. as well as his cane sense of self preservation. there are rules of professional conduct that govern how lawyers are supposed to act and the basics are the same, no matter where you practice law. when you are a lawyer, no one forces you to represent a client. you don't surrender your free will when you decide to take on a client and their case. and by the same token, no one forces you to take an absurd, irrational, unreasonable position that isn't grounded in legitimate legal principles. for example, last week during the oral arguments before the d.c. circuit court of appeals

on trump's presidential immunity claims, my jaw dropped in stunned disbelief when i heard the following exchange between trump lawyer the john sour and accomplished harvard law educated attorney who clerked for the united states supreme court in federal appellate judge, florence pan. >> could a president who ordered s.e.a.l. team six to assassinate a political rival who was not impeached, can he be subject to criminal prosecution? >> if you are impeached and convicted first. >> your answer is no? >> i understand that every individual has the right to counsel and that council has the duty and obligation to provide their client with zealous and competent representation. a lawyer also has to abide by a clients decisions, when it comes to the objectives of that representation. the american bar association's model rules of professional conduct state that a lawyer's representation does not

constitute an endorsement of the clients political, economic, social, or moral views or activities. but when it comes to donald trump, his lawyers not only are keeping that bad company, but they're also risking having the professional reputations suffer from advancing trump's case theories that are beyond the pale. by representing trump, these lawyers are forever tainted. you have to wonder, to trump's lawyers ever stop to ask themselves, is it worth it? is it worth losing your credibility for donald trump? your reputation. it is all you have. is it the fame? is it the money? well, that part is questionable, right? i mean, trump is notorious for being sued for non payment for services rendered. let's take a look at a list of some trump lawyers upon whom history will not look kindly. rudy giuliani, jenna ellis, jeffrey clark, john eastman, kenneth chesebro, and sidney powell, to just name a few. for some, doing donald trump's

bidding means you end up getting indicted, you lose your law license, you end up owing money. you end up having to hire lawyers to defend you in civil, criminal, and administrative cases. and after all is said and done, after you've suffered the humiliation and the shame of being branded a, quote, trump lawyer, and you've suffered the repeated courtroom losses, well, that's when trump throws you under the bus. take michael cohen. the former personal attorney and fixer for donald trump. he was convicted for things he says trump told him to do and in return, he routinely received death threats, hatred, and vitriol. say what you want to say about michael cohen, but last i checked, donald trump has not served a single day in jail versus michael, who was sentenced to three years in federal prison. lawyers are a weapon of choice for donald trump and without his stable of enabling lawyers, trump would not have anyone to give him the cover he so desperately needs for all of his courtroom battles. these lawyers give him some measure of reported credibility as the knowingly advances

alarming and unprecedented legal theories. they also serve a very dangerous purpose of normalizing trump, as if he isn't the client that's already promised to be a dictator on day one and as if he isn't a client who brazenly seeks absolute presidential immunity to be able to cross the line with impunity. warren buffett once said, it takes 20 years to build a reputation and five minutes to ruin it. if you think about that, you will do things differently. if you are a lawyer in trump world, those 15 minutes of fame could swiftly become five minutes of ruin and a lifetime of infamy. still to come on the katie phang show, swatting search. the republican-led push at the senate to get a handle on the search of political swatting attacks and the possible prison time perpetrators could face when, not if, someone gets seriously hurt by their dangerous antics. that is next. antics that is next that is next so, i use my freedom unlimited card. earning on my favorite soup.

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high-profile public officials have recently been the victims of swatting attacks at their homes. if you are unfamiliar with the term swatting, it involves a false report being made to the police -- alert law enforcement to the location. the police think that some life threatening crime is in progress or has taken place, and once police arrived, usually with a forceful response, they discover that was all a hoax. some recent victims include special counsel jack smith. he was district court judge

tanya chutkan and justice arthur engoron. people trump has publicly attacked. republicans like senator rick scott say that they have also been victims of swatting. the troubling trend has even reached one of the safest buildings in the nation, the white house. when a 9-1-1 call was made falsely claiming that there was a fire and someone was trapped inside. joining me now, -- former assistant director for counter intelligence at the fbi and an msnbc national security analyst. frank, it's always so good to see you. look, you know, trump, and i'm going to kind of point him out right now, right? he's created a culture of violence and intimidation, and continues to nurture it. are you concerned by how common these attacks have become? and that anyone who's the focus of his ire might be swatted? >> yeah, if you ask any police department chair, sheriff department across the country, they will tell you emphatically, the number of swatting incidents is up and it's getting more and more fraught with peril. it's more and more americans are armed and might actually

brandish a weapon when they see or hear people breaking through their door, thinking it's a burglary, but it's actually a s.w.a.t. team, because they've been targeted by swatting. but here's the difference between what's happened now and, say, ten years ago. one, you just mentioned, which is the cultural, societal factor. it's become okay, so to speak, to lash out in this kind of remote form of violence and attack when you don't like someone's political posture. it's become weaponized. the phone and the computer have now become weaponized, but there's also technology involved here that's different than ten years ago. you can anonymize your phone number, make it appear that it's a phone number with an area code across the country. you can use a.i. to disguise your accent, as if you're a different nationality, from a different country. that makes it more complicated for law enforcement, but people have died. this is not a prank. as you've said in the league in, there is at least two known

incidents of fatalities. one, where a homeowner had a heart attack when the swat team came through the door. second, where the responding officer shot and killed the homeowner because the officers thought that was the bad guy. so, for people who say, what is this? it's a call to the police saying, there is a their hostage situation, a man with a gun, i've just killed somebody, trying to force a major tactical response to the house in an effort to intimidate and silence that person. >> you know frank, in 2019, there were an estimated 1000 swatting incidents domestically each year and the fbi ended up creating a national online database in may of last year to start tracking these swatting events. since then, may of 2023, there's been more than 500 swatting's reported by law enforcement. what i found to be really interesting is experts are saying that that figure is likely an undercount because it's actually really hard to investigate a crime of swatting. >> it is and again, you have this kind of anonymity, whose this mystery phone call coming

from? where is it coming from? and the other thing is, there's very little, up till now, with the proposed legislation in the senate that you referred to, up until now, that penalty has generally been filing a false police report. a misdemeanor. but clearly now, when we've weaponized this dangerous thing, it needs a more grave response and i'm a supporter of the senate sponsored legislation that will make this federal. no longer local, and make it a felony under certain circumstances. >> yeah and to your point, right? it's hard to prosecute. if you actually find the offender, which is difficult, as you've explained from the technology standpoint, you find the offender, there's no single federal law criminalizing it. there's a pair ofrepublicans that have introduced legislation to do just that, but you know, previous attempts actually make this into a law have failed. why do you think that's the case, frank? that prior attempts to actually make this into a law have actually not succeeded? >> well, i find it interesting that it took a couple of

leading republican politicians to get swatted for them to actually introduce this legislation. that is interesting. i think it has been, in the past, it's been viewed as a kind of high school prank, maybe a high school friend prank-ing his high school principal, trying to mess with somebody. and so, the police say look, we have limited resources. we are annoyed by this, it's an annoyance, so we have to deploy, you know, units we don't want to do this. but the attitude has changed here, clearly. and not only are you facing arrest and particularly, stacked charges, upon charges, if you've done multiple of these. by the way, i think many of these high-profile people now, this is not random. i think the perpetrator or perpetrators are organized, doing this on purpose. and the fbi has already said, we are investigating these incidents. they're federal judges, federal prosecutors, you will get caught. your anonymity will only last so long, as we tracy back to the nearest cell tower and use other techniques to find you. but also understand, there is also civil liability here for

intentional infliction of emotional distress. you get the swat team at your door at 2:30 in the morning, you've got your kids out of bed, it's emotional and you are facing civil liabilities as well. >> you know, frank, while i have you here, i really want to switch gears quickly, if you don't mind. you wrote a really amazing piece for msnbc online about the department of justice relating -- 600 page report about robb elementary in uvalde. i just wanted to give you some time right now to kind of talk about what has been described as an unimaginable failure of a law enforcement response on that day. >> yeah, i wrote a column, it came out yesterday at msnbc daily. i had posed the question way back in 2022 when the shooting occurred, and i asked a question, was the shooter the only criminal inside robb elementary school that day? and now, with my column yesterday, i have enough information to answer my own question, which is, i don't think the shooter was the only

criminal. i think there are criminal charges to be had for the leadership of those police departments, those officers, 300 officers, over 300, at that school that day, who did absolutely nothing and acted contrary to all training and reasonable police tactics. so, i'm calling for criminal charges. the state of texas has two charges. one related to abandonment of a child, one related to neglect of a child, knowingly or recklessly leaving a child at risk of injury or serious bodily harm. i think that applies to these officers and the uvalde district attorney in the state of texas need to get off their hands and charge these officers. >> frank figliuzzi fighting for those memories, right? of those 19 children and two teachers. they deserve justice. thank you for being here for sharing your insight, i appreciate it. >> thank you. >> and coming up, i am ruth bader ginsburg, the new kids book highlighting the accomplishments of rbg and the

challenges translating her massive legacy into a way that even kids can appreciate. bestselling author brad meltzer joins me next. meltze joins me next. joins me next. aine when it strikes and prevent migraine attacks, all in one. don't take if allergic to nurtec. allergic reactions can occur, even days after using. most common side effects were nausea, indigestion, and stomach pain. ask about nurtec odt. (vo) if you have graves' disease, your eye symptoms could mean something more. nausea, indigestion, and stomach pain. that gritty feeling can't be brushed away.

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the latest installment of what i am calling the i am series highlights the league supreme court justice from her childhood as a young jewish girl growing up in brooklyn to her time in law school, all the way through her historic dissent in the -- equal pay lawsuit. joining me now is new york times bestselling author and my good friend, brad maelzer. brad, you're always doing such a great job. your latest book and the ordinary people change the world series, i am ruth bader ginsburg, it's available now. i urge everyone to go out and read it because even i am learning something new. i didn't even know that ruth bader ginsburg, that her first name was actually joan. there were so many jones incurred garden that they decided to call her ruth. i mean, i know that's maybe like a superficial example, but this is the 32nd title in the series you have done. why did you think that it was really important to highlight right now someone like justice ruth bader ginsburg? >> listen, these books were created for my own kids to get better heroes to look up to. i tell my kids all the time, you've got to help someone to be a hero. having, you know, a big company

or being a billionaire with their own rocket ship, that doesn't make you a hero. you've got to think of someone beside yourself and what this book asks, at its core, the very first line it says, how do you create change? especially when the rules in the world are not fair. that's what i want for my kids. i want my daughter to know that question, i want my sons to know the answer to that question. how do we create change,? ruth bader ginsburg gave us the answer. she showed us exactly how to do it. >> and brad, how do you go about doing what you do? which is you take something like the massive legacy of such an accomplished person, like rbg, and you get it into a way that is so digestible for kids, like my daughter, to be able to, like, read this and really kind of appreciate the story? >> yeah, you know, we worked with, we did -- jane goodall helped us put her book. same thing with dolly parton, oprah winfrey. billie jean king spent two hours on the phone with me, correcting every color of every sneaker in i am billie jean king. so with this one, we went to

her family. a new justice ginsburg because her daughter was a mentor of mine in law school, so i obviously knew her personally. but the great -- working with her daughter and getting every detail right, so you can hear those stories you don't know and those little stories, like you mentioned, are the ones your kids react to. that's a story in there that when she was a little girl, her birthdays, instead of having a birthday party, they would take her to the local jewish orphanage and they would give away ice cream to all the orphans. what her mom is teaching her right there, that is how you make change. you make it by doing it yourself. that's not a lesson ruth bader ginsburg gets from law school. she gets it from her own mother. and that's what she does with the rest of her life. she uses the law to look -- into the world, that's what we're trying to do with these books as i'm trying to use our books, chris and i are trying to use our books to put some good in the world for kids. >> what i find to be magical always about your book, spread, is that not only can my daughter, who's not buy them -- by daughter charlotte, but i

read them and i can appreciate concepts like the idea that she goes to law school, she's not supposed to be in law school, she's just a woman and then when she graduates from law school, she can't even get a job because law firms won't hire women. i mean, things like that, sadly, are still themes that still exist even today in terms of the battle for women and equality. but you also kind of, excuse me, dove deep into some of the historic cases that justice ruth bader ginsburg had her print on. what's the process for you to kind of distillers really important cases into a children's book that has pictures? >> this is where i'm using my law school education, right? i haven't used it in my -- all the time but this is where i get to use it and it was fun for me. you know, when i talk to her daughter about it, professor jane ginsburg, and to her granddaughter about it, it was getting down to that core idea. the core idea, and ruth bader ginsburg always use is she always asked, you know, how do you want the world to be for your daughter and how do you

want to be fair granddaughter? that's the question. she was so smart, she was a laser in those cases because she knew, it's one thing to pick, we think of her as a feminist lawyer. but she picked cases where if you are a man and you are taking care of your parents, the government won't give you any money. but if you're a woman and you're taking care of your parents, the government will subsidize it. that's a case that's unfair to men, not unfair to women, but she took that case to. she knew all the hypocrites that were on that bench, they couldn't rule against the men, so she very carefully crafted that, put that in the book, so and kids understand. they understand what is unfair. they understand when she's a little that way, boys can take woodworking classes but girls can't take wood working class? the girls have to go into so in class? that's not fair. so, your kids, our kids understand that and that's how they learn. a great lesson of the book is, you know, how do you change the world when the world's unfair? you change the rules, katie. you know that. that's the best part. >> and it sounds so sweet.

so, brad, i've got to say goodbye, but i did want to give a shout out to the illustrator that's been working with you throughout all of these books, christopher illiopolis. he's spectacular. he brings these amazing people to life and he is so talented. you are as well, but i definitely want to make sure that chris got a shout out as well. grant meltzer, so good to see you. my best to you and your family, thank you so much. >> thanks so much, katie. >> thanks to all of you for joining us today. you can catch me back here next saturday noon eastern. remember, you can follow us on social media and youtube using that handle, at katie phang show. but don't go anywhere, christine roman is in for alex witt and that's coming up next. and that's coming up next and that's coming up next sometimes your work shirt needs to be for more than just work. like when it needs to be a big soft shoulder to cry on. which is why downy does more to make clothes softer, fresher, and better. downy. breathe life into your laundry.

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