appealing for some of the voters this white house so desperately needs. white house reporter for "the wall street journal," ken thomas, thank you, as always. we, of course, will have coverage later today of the president heading to wisconsin for the infrastructure announcement, which doubles as a stomp in a battleground state he simply needs to win. thank you, all of you, for getting up "way too early" with us on this thursday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. trump defeated nikki haley 54% to 43%. it's the very first time he's ever been happy to see a woman in her 40s. >> he won by 11 points. he beat nikki haley by double digits. he's also leading nikki haley by double digits in felony charges, 91-0. >> trump cruised to victory. like most cruises, half the people parted while the other half felt really sick. good morning. welcome to "morning joe" on this

thursday, january 25th. we have a lot to get to this morning, including the red flags with donald trump's campaign coming out of new hampshire. new exit polls are exposing his weaknesses in a general election. it comes as the haley campaign -- >> what a shock, by the way. you mean he's weak in a general election? who would have -- >> i don't know. >> -- ever seen that in 2017, '18, '19, '20, '21, '22, or '23. >> this is so shocking. >> who could have seen this? >> it comes as the haley campaign says it has seen a significant bump in donations since tuesday's primary. >> look at the orange. okay. we're going to go back. >> it's a really pretty dress. >> it is a beautiful dress. >> gorgeous. >> we wonder about -- the makeup, you know, it is caked on orange. >> i -- i don't know what's going on there. >> look. >> could be -- i don't want to -- i don't think it'd be right to talk about someone's

appearance. it is not presidential. >> the dress and the orange. >> exactly. >> i think i would probably, if i were living in the glass house he is living in, would probably just drop the rocks to my feet. >> okay. we'll go through all of that. plus, the latest from -- >> wait! there's more. >> the latest on capitol hill on the border deal, which includes urgent funding for ukraine. we'll have new reporting on what minority leader mitch mcconnell is saying behind closed doors. >> can i just say, ukrainians are dying every single day because of the house republicans. not because of some bureaucratic snafu or, oh, we don't know who. not because of mitch mcconnell. not because of the senate republicans. it is the house republicans that are playing right into vladimir putin's hands and causing more ukrainian children to be killed. >> yeah. >> they don't care. that's the thing, they have a speaker that's been pro-putin since the beginning of this war.

>> we'll have the very latest on that. also, the second defamation trial against donald trump is expected to resume this morning in new york with possible testimony from the former president. how does he find the time? along with joe, willie, and me, we have the host of "way too early," white house bureau chief at "politico," jonathan lemire. ceo of the messina group, joe ma massena. also with everybody, conservative attorney george conway is with us. >> willie, yesterday, of course, if you went to any major news publication, if you went to drudge, i mean, it was lit up with stories about how, here's a shock, breaking news, please stop everything, donald trump has weaknesses in the general election. i mean, it is crazy that, i mean, that's even a news story now. we're going to talk about that in a second.

i wanted to talk about how remarkable it is that you have house republicans, people that are in the party that ronald reagan used to be a member of, that are sitting by, knowing they're causing ukrainians to die. sitting by, knowing they're standing in the way of israeli funding, and they have from the beginning. you know, they tried some trick about, oh, well, this time, israeli aid, we never paid for any other aid but we'll have to pay for israeli aid. that's what the speaker was saying about israel. on the border, they're just out and out saying, we're going to let fentanyl keep flooding across the border, killing americans, even though we could stop it. we're going to let illegal immigrants keep flooding across the border, causing chaos for communities, chaos for cities like new york, by uncontrolled immigration. immigration is great. it has to be controlled. we now have the senate

republicans and the white house and the senate democrats with a deal, the toughest border deal ever, that would stop fentanyl from flooding across the border, stopping -- they're saying no, and they're admitting, republicans are admitting, house republicans, "no, we don't want to fix this. we don't want to fix the fentanyl problem right now. we don't want to fix the illegal immigrant problem right now, because joe biden might get a little bit of credit for that." that's how sick they are. they're saying, "keep the border open for another year." >> yeah, they got as good a deal as they could ever hope for sitting right in front of them. it actually reminds you a little of 2016 when the entire chant was, build that wall, build that wall. they love the immigration issue. they said there was a crisis at the border. donald trump gets elected. they control both houses of the congress for two years. they own washington and do nothing. there is no border wall built. >> yeah. >> they like the issue, bang the drum about it. now, they have their own people, republicans, saying, we're there.

we're at the 20 yard line. we're entering the red zone. this thing we've said we wanted for so long, and you won't take the deal. you won't take the deal. now, we're even hearing rumblings, jonathan lemire, inside the senate, that mitch mcconnell might be getting a little shaky on this, saying, well, the nominee, what he is calling donald trump inside this caucus, the nominee doesn't want us to do this deal. the house has been the problem. is it spreading to the senate now is the question. >> it sure looks that way. the analysis appears to be changing. it's not just the house republicans. now, it looks like it'll be the senate republicans, too. minority leader mcconnellin a closed door meeting with his colleagues spoke differently about this deal than he has in the past. mcconnell has been adamant that the u.s. needs to support ukraine, but now he thins the packages need to be separate. the only way to get the backing for ukraine is to have the border security deal. mcconnell is admitting that trump says we don't want this

deal, and he issuggesting, quote, "the politics on this changed. we don't want to do anything to undermine him," him being trump. meaning, we don't want to take an election issue away from trump. if mcconnell suddenly goes soft on this deal, it is going to be doomed. it shows, again, the grip that trump has on the party. also, mitch mcconnell, though, at times, he's spoken up strongly against trump, he acknowledged he'll vote for him again. he did not follow through trying to convict trump in his second impeachment trial post january 6th. now, he seems to be doing his bidding for his campaign, even if it hurts the american people and submarines a deal that most people say they want. >> joe, we might be going from a situation where you could have had both, immigration reform and support for ukraine, to having neither. by the way, we should point out, ukraine is almost out of ammunition. their leadership is crying from the mountaintops. effectively, this war is now in the hands of the united states

congress. we can't win without the united states congress doing something. >> yeah. >> that congress is sitting on its hands right now. >> and the rest of the world is watching. understanding that house republicans, who have been pro-putin from the beginning with their votes, house republicans from the party of ronald reagan are siding with a russian kgb agent who invaded ukraine. it is, jim messina, if you take a step back, just looking at this politically, i just am baffled by just how stupid, baffled, baffled every day by how stupid republicans are. baffled by the fact that the two biggest issues in america, the two biggest issues in new hampshire, the two biggest issues in iowa were what? immigration and the economy.

donald trump has said already, to lou dobbs, he wants the economy to crash. he wants there to be a great depression. he wants people's life savings wiped out and destroyed so he can be re-elected president. that's the economy. now, let's talk about immigration. republicans are saying, "this is the toughest border security bill we've ever gotten." but house republicans are saying, "let's kill it." donald trump is saying," let's kill it." on the two most important issues, we have the solutions to the best we've had in decades, and donald trump says no, and the house republicans are going along and now the senate. this is just -- these are two campaign issues that democrats should be able to absolutely trounce republicans on. >> oh, joe, you're exactly right. i mean, how much longer do we need to say the republican party

is pro-america? like, they're pro the republican party. this is some of the biggest political malpractice. >> they're pro donald trump. they're not even pro republican party! these actions hurt the republican party. >> exactly right. if you're a house republican or senate republican, what exactly are you running for re-election on in november? you have done nothing. you have done nothing on the two issues that define the day. on the economic issue, you fought joe biden for two years on all the things that, oh, by the way, have actually saved the american economy and helped towards this soft landing we may be having. and on immigration, you're exactly right, they've been campaigning on this for seven years. they couldn't get it done on their own. they have a deal in front of them that, honestly, is the best deal they are ever going to have. this is a political layup, and they can't even take this because donald trump called mitch and said, "oh, we can't do this because of the politics."

at what point do you do what's best for your country? at what point do you do what's best for the people that you continue to lie to? >> yeah, at what point? at what point? when the republican party finally turns their back on donald trump. again, let's be very clear here, donald trump's two positions here are, one, keep the border open, because donald trump says keeping the border open for illegal immigrants and fentanyl is good for him. despite the facts, donald trump says, "keep the border open, mitch. keep the border open, mikey." they're listening. that's number one. number two is, let the economy crash. he has said it, "let the economy crash." it'll be better for him. he wants your 401(k)s destroyed. he wants your retirement plans destroyed. he wants your stock market portfolio destroyed. he wants everything destroyed.

he wants you out in the streets. he said, he wants joe biden to be herbert hoover because the economy is doing so well. again, very clear here. forget about the fact that he stole nuclear secrets. forget about the fact that a jury has found him guilty of sexual abuse of a woman. forget the fact the judge in that same courtroom said donald trump raped that woman. forget the illegal payoffs to porn stars. >> forget it. >> forget all of it. if you're out there going, oh, they're just after donald trump. why can't we talk about policies? all right. let's talk about the policies that the dictator-wanna-be wants to do. one, he has said he wants the economy to crash. he said it. there's tape. he said it. chinese religious websites, chinese cults can't get in the

way of the fact that he said that truth. trump said, "i want the economy to crash," one. number two, he made it very clear, he said, "i want to keep the border open." open democrats, are you listening? you're running against a party whose who platforms this year are let the economy crash and keep the border open. repeat after me. trump wants and republicans you're running against are going along with trump, they want to wreck the economy, and they want to keep the border open. >> yay, we overturned roe. >> does that -- oh, yeah, they want to keep -- that's three. number four, i mean, they want to re-elect a guy who wanted to destroy the economy. oh, hey, wait, there's more, mika. >> there's always more. >> they have promised they want to take away your health care.

these are all things they said. >> right. >> this is nothing that primetime of msnbc or "the new york times" editorial page said. this is donald trump. >> right. >> and republicans, it's what they've said. judge them by what they do and, yes, judge them when they confess. despite donald trump's win in new hampshire's republican primary on tuesday, exit polls suggest major problems ahead for donald trump if he advances to the general election. now, according to analysis by fox news, 35% of gop primary voters in the granite state say they won't vote for trump if he is the party's nominee in november. wow. when a similar question was asked of nikki haley, voters in new hampshire, 94% told cnn they'd be dissatisfied if trump wins the nomination. among the same group, 83% said they would consider trump unfit

for office if he is convicted of a crime by election day. >> yeah, you know, it's crazy. he's talking about terminating abortion, terminating roe v. wade. the polls there showed that issue also weighed heavily on the minds of new hampshire voters. >> absolutely. >> there you have 66%. george conway, you know, even before the democratic party gets it out, the truth out about how donald trump wants to wreck the economy and keep the borders open, you have these exit polls out of new hampshire that show 35% of the republicans there refuse to vote for donald trump. in iowa, only 14% of republicans in iowa, so probably about a third of the -- about 14% of 33% went out to vote in iowa because people were so uninspired by

donald trump. talk about what we all know, what was splashed all over drudge yesterday, that donald trump just has a massive general election problem, and he always will. >> yeah, he absolutely does. it's getting worse and worse because the trumpian base is being stripped to its core. he is shedding people who actually want to do something that's right for the country. it's becoming more and more apparent to people that trump is a destructive force. it's not just, as you described so well, trump being in nihilistic force from above affecting legislators. there is that core base from the bottom that trump has captured and that really dove tails with trump's attitud that we have to worry about. there was this article the other day in "politico," where michael cruz interviewed a gop voter in new hampshire who decided he was going to support trump.

basically, this man didn't have any real -- he didn't have any clear policy views, but what he wanted to do was to attack the elites that he feels resentful of and who he thinks look down upon him. and the way to do that is essentially to put donald trump in as a wrecking ball, to destroy the country. the voter was essentially asked, well, won't that hurt you? the voter acknowledged, yeah, sure, it would, but it is worth it to them. those people are, you know, the core of the republican base right now who support trump, but other people don't want to be part of that anymore. they're sick of it. they're starting to see, they're starting to understand how bad it is, and those people are going to vote for anybody other than donald trump in the fall. >> jim messina, you have been consistently bullish about joe biden's chances in the general election once we got to a general election. a side by side, the country really dialled in and focused

and watching donald trump. we're starting to kind of see that. as a guy who has run successful presidential campaigns, as you look at the numbers, the data that has come out of iowa and new hampshire, which is to say that donald trump's support is deep but not very wide, that independents just don't want to go down this road again, as george conway saying here. they're looking at nikki haley. they want some alternative. they're open to even voting for joe biden. one thing they know is they're not going to vote for donald trump in the general election. what do you take away from the other side, from the democratic side, over these two primary contests, one caucus, one primary? >> yeah, willie, you and i and joe and mika have been talking for months about the democratic bedwetters. now, you're seeing the republican panic. if i was the campaign manager for donald trump today, i'd be throwing up into a basket at my desk. the reason i say that is you cannot have a third of your voters say that they won't vote for your guy in the general election if he's convicted of a

crime because, guess what? he is going to be in one of these four cases, especially the georgia one. like, that's going to happen. the other thing is, he lost moderate voters by 53 points the other night to nikki haley. you just cannot do that. he lost college-educated voters by 15 points. if you extrapolate that to the general election, to the six or seven states that are really going to decide this election, there are just warning signs all over the place about what we have been saying for months, which is, donald trump is a bad general election candidate. republicans have lost with him in '18. they've lost with him in '20, in '22, and they're in serious trouble again in 2024. yet, willie, they continue to double down and do whatever this wrecking ball of a political machine tells them to do. >> as much as the biden campaign is shifting into general election mode, they don't mind nikki haley still being out there, and she's pledging she'll stay to south carolina, super

tuesday, and beyond, and she went harder at trump last night than she had at any point in the campaign. we've seen the message of democracy from the biden campaign, of abortion rights. later today, he is heading to wisconsin to talk about the infrastructure bill and the economic improvements. he's basically going to live in those three states, wisconsin, michigan, pennsylvania. he got a good poll out of pennsylvania earlier this week. some worries in michigan to be sure. wisconsin is always tight. especially as arizona and georgia seem harder, this message about independent and swing voters, how trump is unfit for office, expect to hear that from the president day in and day out, particularly in the trio of great lake states. >> by the way, let me just say, you know, you're so right. if everything goes as it's gone for decades, if joe biden wins wisconsin, michigan, and pennsylvania, it's over. let me say, though, if donald trump keeps moving in this

direction, you're going to see not only michigan, wisconsin, and pennsylvania fall, and georgia and arizona and nevada fall. if donald trump keeps going in this direction, add north carolina to the democratic lineup, too. you're going to see, through donald trump, if this continues, you're going to see an expansion of the democrats' power in the electoral college. still ahead on "morning joe," nikki haley, as lemire mentioned, returns to the campaign trail with sharpened attacks against her republican primary opponent. we'll show you what haley said about donald trump in south carolina yesterday. plus, the big endorsements for president biden as he prepares to court blue collar voters in wisconsin today. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. donald trump is a scam!

[ applause ] >> donald trump is a billionaire, and that's who he represents.

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so he got upset, and he said he would take one and he'd challenge me to one and he would beat me. maybe he would. maybe he wouldn't. but what i said is, okay, well, if that's the case, then get on a debate stage and let's go! bring it, donald. show me what you got. >> so why is donald trump scared? he's petrified, actually, to get on a debate stage with a woman. >> yeah. >> he looks down on women so much. >> well -- >> i don't understand why, you know, if she's -- what'd he say, she's stupid, she's this, that. if that's the case, is it because he is old and because he thinks he's old and he thinks that he's losing his mind and he's afraid he's going to confuse her for nancy pelosi again? like, why is trump scared to death of nikki haley? >> i think because nikki haley

is right there, just waiting to see what shoe drops, to see what happens. so, to an extent, what nikki haley represents is the last, best hope for the republican party if all of a sudden, donald trump is taken off the stage because of his legal problems. i think that kind of, like, is right there in his head, you know? >> but, willie, come on, he's scared. he's scared to debate because he doesn't think -- he just doesn't think he can -- i'm sure his campaign people are like, we let him out on a stage in front of a teleprompter, and he confuses nikki haley and nancy pelosi, barack obama, he thinks barack obama is president of the united states, thinks he ran against him and beat him. so, like, they're horrified of the prospects of donald trump on a debate stage with nikki haley

because i guess they don't think he is mentally fit. >> think about it, when is the last time you saw donald trump having to perform on his feet? meaning, take a question from a vote every, debate someone, do something where he had to be prepared and to react to something. they don't put him in those situations anymore. it's not when you stand in front of an adoring crowd and vomit conspiracy theories and confuse nikki haley and nancy pelosi, that's not acting on your feet. that's giving a speech. they don't want him in those scenarios. it is a fair question. why not go to charleston, charlotte, and have a debate with nikki haley? last night may seem like a small distinction, but different from what we saw in new hampshire. nikki haley walked on the stage and started going after donald trump. those comments were at the top of her speech. >> yeah. >> previously -- >> she's made a decision. >> -- they were a little apologetic, frankly, even when we saw her in new hampshire and they came late in the speech. i served in his administration. i was proud to serve under him,

but chaos seems to follow him. she walked on the stage, took the mic, and went after donald trump. we'll see. fundraising has been there for her in the last 24 hours since that result in new hampshire. she came in second. she raised $1 million from 200,000, the campaign says, separate donors, in all 50 states. 95% of the donations, $200 or less. these are not the mega donors. the campaign also says haley will be in new york early next week for several wall street fundraisers. that news clearly has gotten under the skin of donald trump who is now threatening to blacklist all donors to nikki ha trump posting on social media, anyone making a contribution to haley, ote, will be permanently barred the maga camp. we don't want them and will not accept them because we put america first and always will. haley, for her part, responded, writing, well, in that case, donate here! let's go. proviing a link for her campaign's fundraising page.

george conway, you do see fear in the eyes of donald trump in that speech. the most ungracious political speech we've ever seen, victory speech anyway, after winning new hampshire. just grievance ridden and going after nikki haley again and again. maybe he shouldn't be, but he appears afraid of her. >> oh, he absolutely is. this is part and parcel of what i'd like to talk about. his pathological narcissism and sociopathy. people like donald trump know they're not what they pretend to be. he's neither stable nor a genius, and he has been doing it for years. he knows deep down that he is deteriorating under the pressure of the legal cases and as a result of his advanced age. kudos to nikki haley for finally going after him in the way he needs to go after him, in a way

people need to go after him, including the biden campaign in the fall. you need to needle him. it's not -- the campaign has to be as much a psychological operation against donald trump's empty brain as it must be an attempt to persuade voters. the two go hand in hand. you poke trump and make him behave crazily, then you point out the crazy. then you point that out to the voters, and it's a cycle. it's really important that she keep doing this. i don't think it is going to -- and i think she's done it a little too late, but i think it is important that she do it. >> jim messina, you've run presidential campaigns. let's get your take as to what nikki haley actually needs to do here. she finished third in iowa. second in new hampshire. still 11 points down. did she beat polling expectations? yes, but it was a double digit defeat. to be sure, new hampshire exposed general election vulnerabilities for donald trump. here in the gop primaries, it certainly is still his to lose.

what sort of shot do you give haley? what should her game plan be for this next month or so? >> i don't give her much shot, jonathan, and the reason i don't is now we're going into places where there aren't independent and democratic voters who are allowed to be in these primaries. we're going to go into solid republican states where, you know, she's just getting crushed with these republican voters. but, you know, she finally got what she wants, which is a one-on-one battle with donald trump. i love her speech yesterday. it's the nikki haley we should have seen two weeks ago in new hampshire. she is just going to try to get this. she's going to try to get him on a debate stage and go right after him and show his weakness. but she's got to find a way to move with republican voters, and i just don't see how that's moving forward. i still believe we're headed toward a biden/trump showdown, and the haley experiment is just a little bit of a sideshow. >> willie -- >> could be a useful one. >> -- i have to say, it may be a

sideshow. i will tell you, though, if i were donald trump, the last thing i would want is a governor, a former governor of the state, a former state legislator, who knows that state backwards and forwards, and has 30 days to do what she did last night. campaign day by day by day by day, raise millions of dollars while she's campaigning day by day. everybody is thinking this race is going to be a 75/25 race. what if it is a lot closer? then where does she go? she goes to michigan. michigan, an electorate more cut out for her. i'll tell ya what, there are people in michigan that when they hear that donald trump wants the economy to crash, wants the borders to stay open, wants to cut people's health care, promises tax cuts for billionaires and, oh, yeah, you

know, he's bragging about terminating roe v. wade, again, on the edges, even in a republican primary, those things are going to matter. >> yeah, i mean, she's got a bunch of time. a lot stacked against her. it is interesting that the former governor of the state where she's running is the underdog, a huge underdog in her home state. as we were saying yesterday, almost save one, almost the entire south carolina congressional delegation has rallied around donald trump. the governor of the state has rallied around donald trump. she can kind of play this underdog role, and as george says, just needle donald trump. he gives you ammunition every day. i mean, guys, he was up last night in the middle of the night posting 37 times about e. jean carroll ahead of being in court today. >> that's -- >> yeah. >> -- really -- that is so creepy. >> 37 times in the middle of the night. >> he is not well. >> it'll go on like this all month and through the general election. we'll see for nikki haley. but for donald trump, it just

keeps getting a little bit looser, a little more unhinged. i don't know if you're pick it up, joe, but even people who stood by donald trump -- and there was something about the nancy pelosi and nikki haley moment i keep hearing about, that wasn't a slip of the tongue. now, people are finally going, oomph, it is bad out there. >> he's tired. >> oh -- >> he's stressed. >> -- it is really bad out there. again, nikki haley, the fact that the entire delegation is against 'em, all the professional politicians are against them, all the men in the state are against her, what does that sound like? that sounds like 2010 when she was a state legislator and everybody said she was going to lose, and she ended up beating all of them. that is what happened. nikki haley never runs a race where the establishment supports her, mika. >> i'll be careful here, but from trump's point of view, the way he thinks, it's all about appearances. you know, how he picks the secretary of states and

everything else. i like how he looks. i don't like the mustache. that's a sexy person. >> hollywood casting. >> i'm just saying, right now, the optics are terrible for donald trump. >> they are. >> sweaty, sort of rudy at the end kind of feeling to his look. and crazy talk. >> yeah. >> then you cut to nikki haley, who looks sharp, put together, clear in her message. >> yup. >> and -- >> and younger. >> i'm using his standards. >> let's face it, she's younger. he's not full rudy. >> at the end where it is teetering -- >> no, it's going -- >> the bronzer. >> it is going over that way. we'll see, though. >> it hasn't started dripping down the side of his face yet. >> no. george conway, willie talks about the fact that he's up rage tweeting throughout the night. >> not well. >> seems to be losing control more and more. he's going up against nikki haley, somebody that, you know,

a lot of people like. she has a lot of crossover appeal. she could actually win a general election. and i am hearing from people. i had people last week call me up and rib me going, "oh, donald trump, you're saying donald trump is losing his mind because you're trying to defend against joe biden attacks." i go, "no, i've seen this. this is not early onset of something. he's deeply unwell." they mocked me and laughed. two nights later, he confused nikki haley for nancy pelosi. we're going to have more and more of that. do you think that's why -- >> the contrast. >> -- donald trump is so scared of nikki haley and won't debate her? >> yeah, i absolutely do think that. i mean, i think he knows deep down that his mental state isn't all that well, which is why he continually wants to talk about it. talk about the silly test where he says there was a whale when there was actually no whale on

the test, that dementia test. the two things that are going to beat him in the fall, and i don't think nikki is going to be able to turn this around for the reasons that we previously discussed, but the things that are going to kill him in the fall are his mental condition and his misogyny. both are reflecting themselves right now. on the misogyny, i mean, think about what this week entailed. i mean, if i were -- if i were running a newspaper, the headline that i would have put on the newspaper yesterday would be, "adjudicated rapist wins new hampshire primary. calls female opponent birdbrain." i mean, that's -- it's crazy, but this is -- and this just shows how far and how disgraced the entire republican party has become. the end of the day, it'll be gold for joe biden in the fall.

>> yeah. by the way, add to that the fact that he mocked her dress and said, you know -- >> it was a nice dress. >> it probably wasn't that expe expensive, but he mocked the dress and basically said, "wasn't that nice," as in, what's that expensive? good luck with swing voters, maing fun of a woman's dress. >> jim messina and george conway, thank you so much for being on with us this morning. we'll see you again soon as things are heating up in the race for the white house. coming up, a new potential point of tension between the white house and israel, surrounding the country's military operations in gaza. we'll explain what that is straight ahead on "morning joe."

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israeli defense forces say a strike against a facility in southern gaza didn't come from israel's forces or artillery. a training center was hit, killing nine people and injuring dozens of others.

the u.n. hasn't said who is responsible for the attack but claims the facility was hit by tank rounds which are used only by israel. meanwhile, israel confirmed it is building a buffer zone inside of gaza now, a move the biden administration opposes because of concerns it'll deepen palestinian fears that israel intends to occupy gaza. joining us now, president emeritus of the council on foreign relations, richard haass. good to see you. we'll talk giants draft later, important matters like that. let's talk about what's happening inside israel right now. hamas is claiming that the strike on that facility that killed some civilians came from israel. israel says, not true. it gets at the broader crisis here, which is to say that it is only escalating and it is not clear that there is a solution that either side can live with. >> the reason it is not clear there is a solution is because there isn't. there is but solution is a big word, but there are ways of managing this.

that would mean both sides would have to change, and the israelis, in particular, would have to redefine what victory or success is. i think at some point, you'll get the israelis to cease major military operations. there will be some limited hostage release, which would be good. this new story is a big one, the idea the israelis are going ahead with building a so-called buffer area inside, that's the key word, inside gaza. seems to me that is misguided. october 7th happened in part, not simply because of what hamas did, but it's because what the israelis were unprepared for. rebuilding israel's ability, intelligence and defense wise, to repel any future attack from gaza, it's, to me, essential. that does not require doing it inside gaza which will just inflame everything and raise the question, what is israel's real design? is it territorial expansion? is it denial of a palestinian entity? this seems to me, militarily, whatever benefit you'll get, it

is misguided. >> the biden administration made clear, they oppose this buffer situation. they don't want the palestinians to lose any territory in gaza for exactly what you said, fori population, and also for stoking fears that israel will come in for permanent occupation. this is yet another moment where israel is defying what the united states wants. we know, we've reported on this show how much president biden soured on prime minister netanyahu, but he is still in charge, at least for now. what else can the u.s. do? is it time that whatever funding deal gets done, to start putting conditions on aid to israel. >> you're right, this is another example where the united states is saying things and it is being rebuffed. it makes us look weak, would be the generous word. around the world, people who are sympathetic of israel on october 7th, appreciative of american support, thinks we lost the narrative. we've been unconditionally supportive, it is a mistake. three things we can do.

one, say, we won't give you this ordinance, you don't need these large weapons, or if we give them, you can't use them against these targets. in this case, you say, you can't use american aid to build a buffer zone inside palestinian territory. with the united nations, think about, what is it we can put forward ourselves, instead of just vetoing. what can we support? most important, the president has to acknowledge that bibi netanyahu is not a partner. bibi netanyahu has an agenda all about bibi netanyahu. it is not even good for israel, i'd argue. put that aside. it is not good for the united states or this relationship. he has to go over his head. the president needs to give a speech to the israeli people, essentially saying, where you are, what needs to change in your short-term policy, what needs to change over the long-term, and how the united states is with you. you've got to do things that are not only in the interest of this relationship, in your own self-interest. he's got to be sensitive. the israelis are still not ready

to talk about certain issues given the trauma of october 7th, but the president has to start shaping the political context in israel. good news is, joe biden is far more popular in israel than bibi netanyahu. he has enormous opportunity to shape the conversation and the context of what will ultimately be an israeli election. >> you know, richard, the problem is, bibi netanyahu has done just about everything he can do to blow the goodwill that, not just the united states, but the world, for the most part, was giving to israel. we support israel, like you said. joe biden has always supported israel. but bibi netanyahu is the guy that, again, knew this attack was coming, had information on it for a year, had qatar continue to fund, you know -- they've given billions to hamas. in september, said, keep giving them money. he and donald trump knew where

their illegal money was coming from in 2018. they did nothing about it. i have to say, enough is enough. you've said this, he needs to go over netanyahu's head. he doesn't, from all reports i hear, he's had enough of netanyahu. the question is this -- well, let me ask this, why wouldn't joe biden and the biden administration come out strongly today and tell benjamin netanyahu, "enough"? >> i think there's two reasons, joe. i agree with you, obviously, 100% on what the president should do. one is, you know, there are elements within the american political system, the democrats who would not welcome that, even though parts of joe biden's base obviously would. the other is, i think, you know, i think we underestimate this in politics, the president is of a mindset, is of a generation where it is very hard for him to do that.

it is very hard for him to distinguish between the prime minister of israel and israel, to take israel on, even the prime minister on so directly. it's very hard for joe biden. if you look at his career, i think he's just been reluctant. he's been reluctant to take bibi on. i'm with you, i think he's got to do it. it's got to be more in sorrow than in anger. it's got to be to sustain this relationship that's been so important for 75 years for israel. and i think it is in israel's own interest. at the end of the day, we've had a version of this conversation before, if israel is going to remain a secure, prosperous, jewish democratic state, it actually needs to separate from the palestinians. not simply because the palestinians deserve something as a favor to them, but as a favor to itself. i want israel to be a permanent reality, and i want it to be a permanent democratic-jewish state. it can't have 5 or 6 million palestinians inside its borders. if they're denied political rights, israel is not a full

democracy. if they're given full rights, israel ceases to be a jewish state. the only answer is to also work with palestinians on solving their dilemma. that's the conversation i believe the president of the united states needs to have with the people of israel. >> well, richard, the last president of the united states and a lot of arab nations believed, hey, we can negotiate peace and just pretend the palestinians don't exist. we can just shove them to the side because, what they said, the arab states can't stand the palestinians. they want nothing to do with them. so they did their deal. it blew up in everybody's face on october 7th. just the question is this, again, the white house knows that right now, saudi arabia, egypt, the uae, jordan, other middle east countries are ready to stand in line with the united

states, to help rebuild the future for gaza without hamas. certainly, without israel occupying gaza because that didn't work for them last time. >> 100%. >> that's not going to last forever. i've had middle east leaders tell me, you know, we can't wait forever. at some point, and that point is coming soon, we're going to have to walk away from this if netanyahu keeps doing what he is doing. as far as this attack that killed nine people, nine u.n. people, israel said it at no time do it. well, it was tank shells. according to "the new york times" and others, you know, the only fighters that have tank shells are israelis. so we're going to continue this drip, drip, drip of terrible news coming out of gaza. it is going to continue. and it is going to continue to undermine not only netanyahu but

the united states. >> entirely telling, joe. the saudis, when they originally thought about normalizing with israel six, nine months ago, they didn't establish anything big with the palestinians. we inserted that because it was the only way to get senate democrats to vote for the security treaty the saudis wanted as part of the deal. but since october 7th, the politics in saudi arabia have changed. they are now requiring that there be significant movement in the direction of a palestinian state. they're moving hard and saying, we're not going to write a check to rebuild gaza without an enduring, open-ended cease-fire or something close to it. this just shows that what you said, the situation in the arab world has changed. israel has the opportunity here to make peace, to normalize formally with the most important country in the islamic world. saudi arabia's lead is the custodian of the two holy

mosques. this is one of the most important and wealthiest in the arab world. this is a major opportunity. there is a choice to be had here, and you're right, it doesn't necessarily stay forever. does israel want a greater peace, or does israel want a greater israel? that's a fundamental fork in the road. again, i think the president of the united states has to frame it that way. the saudis have given them something to work with. he ought to run with it. >> let me ask you to hop over to ukraine, richard. we've been talking about what's going on in the congress with this border deal, border money tied to ukraine aid. that's become a mess not just in the house but the senate according to the reporting this morning. meanwhile, we're hearing from leadership in ukraine who said just now explicitly, the future of this war is in the hands of the united states congress. we can't win without you. please, do something. how dire is the situation now in ukraine, and how dire would it be if it goes on like this without funding from the united states? >> dire is the word. look, i don't think it was in the cards for ukraine to roll back the russians, but, to me, the definition of victory, at

least in the short one, was that ukraine would continue to exist as a sovereign empty in charge of roughly 80% of its territory. hopefully over time, it'd get back crimea in the east. we want ukraine to be a functioning, safe democracy. greater ties to the eu. potentially security ties to us and nato. we do not want that to be at stake. after the last two years, that is the great accomplishment. what congress is putting in jeopardy is the fundamental accomplishment. we're not talking anymore about ukraine rolling back russia. we're talking about ukraine continuing to exist. the stakes have gone up fundamentally. this is about as -- again, as fundamental as you get about the nature of the world, european security, about the word of the united states. what congress is doing is putting that at stake. why? because they don't want to give the president a political victory on the border because they think that'd be bad for them politically. talk about not putting country before party. they call themselves patriots. this is a time to be patriotic.

what is going on in the house and congress is not patriotic. >> giving putin exactly what he wants. now, sweden on the doorstep of nato membership. needs the vote of hungary. the vote has to be unanimous. will they get there? >> for a price, potentially. look, orban is playing a very different game. he's been difficult on all these issues. i was quite honestly somewhat surprised turkey came along. we know aircraft will be there. the issue is, what is orban's price? it'll be a difficult pill to swallow, given who and what he is. >> can i ask, richard, why is orban -- i mean, i don't know why hungary is still in the eu. why is orban still a member of nato? i ask that of turkey from time to time. we know why turkey is still in nato. they're geographically so extraordinarily important. why? hungary is not important. they're pro-russian. they're illiberal. they hate western democracy and ha said it. why don't we kick them out of

nato? >> there's one problem, joe. when people were drafting the nato treaty back when, they forgot to put in a clause for kicking people out. countries like turkey and hungary can stay in there with im impunity. there is literally not a mechanism to boot somebody out. >> is there a mechanism to take away their vote? >> i've never heard that, but the question is, what i would say, if you have to, work around it. you give countries de facto -- give them 99% of the substance of membership perhaps without the packaging and you just do that. >> richard haass, as always, thank you very much. still ahead on "morning joe," we'll talk to ed luce of "the financial times" about what he calls wall street's bargain with trump, and why he says many corporate leaders are misguided in playing down the risks of a second trump term. plus, we'll go live to the new york city courthouse where trump's second defamation trial is set to resume and where we could see the former president

take the witness stand. we're back in two minutes.

the big political news, the auto workers union endorsed president biden. they're concerned about his mileage, but they can probably squeeze out four more years before he breaks our. >> welcome back to "morning joe" on this thursday, january 25th. jonathan lemire is still with us. joining the conversation, we have msnbc contributor mike barnicle. and u.s. national editor at "the financial times," ed luce. good to have you all with us this morning. >> mike, before we just started with the top of the news, i want to circle back to what we talked about last hour, which i'm sure you were listening to while they were fixing your hair. >> the hair and makeup. >> didn't take long. >> facial, a mask. >> you know, now that donald trump has told the senate republicans and the house republicans, "kill the border deal," which the senate

republicans say is the toughest border deal in history, like, donald trump's position now is, wreck the economy. let the economy crash, number one. two, keep the border open. you know, over the next year. he says, keep the border open. let the economy crash. oh, wait, there's more. get rid of health care for millions of americans. and, of course, he was the one that killed roe v. wade. i mean, take that all together, it's a nice little toxic brew for independents. >> you know, the interesting thing about that, joe, what you just said, first of all, obamacare, whatever you want to call it, the coverage and the people joining obamacare was up to record numbers this year, just people enrolling in obamacare over the past couple of months. the other aspect of it is, you're absolutely right, this is a republican party now committed to themselves, the same way their nominee, donald trump, is

committed to himself. he called, he suggested that it'd be wonderful if the stock market crashed this year so it'd help him electorally. in other words, he would be applauding if people went lost their homes. this year, it'd enhance his opportunities to become president of the united states. there is no moral republican party. the republican party of recent memory, the republican party that you belong to, that you ran for office under their flag, joe, that party is long gone. >> yup. >> it's long gone. >> long gone. i'll tell ya what, if i had the toughest border deal in history, i'd vote for it. you know, if the economy was doing well, i'd be bragging about the economy. not what congress or the president did but what small business owners, what family restaurant owners, what other people did coming out. i mean, this would be so easy to campaign on as a main street republican.

but there are no main street republicans. they're now lined up with a guy whether sa who says he wants the economy to crash, wants joe biden to be herbert hoover, meaning he wants americans to suffer through a great depression. he said it. he said it. number one. number two, he's ordering republicans in the house and the senate, don't take the best border security deal ever. keep the borders open. that's donald trump. keep the borders open for the next year. if we pass the toughest border protection bill ever, it might help joe biden a little bit. keep the borders open. keep the fentanyl flooding in. keep illegal immigrants flooding in, and don't do anything. that's what -- they're the do nothing republicans. >> they've even admitted to that. >> yeah. >> they've proven that over the course of many, many election cycles. >> yeah.

the united ao workers union endorsed president biden. uaw president shawn fain made thennouncement yesterday at the union's conference in washington. fain praised biden for his record on unions and joining the picket line last year. he also railed against donald trump for not supporting the uaw. >> in 2019, our members were out there holding the line at gm on a national strike for 40 days. [ applause ] trump was the sitting president. he said nothing! he did nothing! nothing a damn thing, because he doesn't care about the american worker! here's what trump did to help the american auto worker in our 2023 historic stand-up strike now that he is running for

president. he went to a non-union plant, invited by the boss, and trashed our union. here is what joe biden did during our stand-up strike. he heard the call. he stood up, and he showed up. [ applause ] he joined us in solidarity on the picket line. for the first time in our nation's history, a sitting president has ever done that. and this choice is clear. joe biden bet on the american worker while donald trump blamed the american worker. [ applause ] we need to know who is going to sit in the most powerful seat in the world and help us win as the

united working class. so if our endorsements must be earned, joe biden has earned it! >> i'll tell ya what, willie, tough stuff there. i like first to have a "morning joe," you know, special. get shawn fain there. baby, we need sean o'brien on set, too. any senator threatens him, they regret it. >> take it outside, yeah. >> it's tough. i mean, think about that. think about how that cuts through. we remember when it was, wait a second, he's not going to a union shop, trump. he was trying to -- you know, are people really that dumb? i'm so glad that union members in wisconsin, michigan, pennsylvania, are hearing this,

because it's true. joe biden was the first president in history to stand with striking workers. pretty remarkable. >> that is what we call a full-throated endorsement from the uaw. that was not some paper statement, if you watched that event yesterday. >> robust. >> yeah, it was robust. mike barnicle, obviously, that's a big deal. i mean, in the state of michigan, obviously, where there are a lot of auto workers, wisconsin, you can move around the midwest, but to have an endorsement that wasn't just, "yeah, we like this guy," no, "this guy literally stood with us on the picket line when we won rights for each other." in a state that could be decided by a few thousand votes like michigan, it's a big deal. >> it's a big deal on a couple levels, willie. obviously, because of the endorsement, but also the way it was framed up by the president of the united auto workers. jonathan, i don't know about you, but sean o'brien, head of the teamsters, originally head of local 25 in charlestown,

massachusetts. >> there it is. >> he is cut from the same cloth. >> come on! >> cut from the same cloth as shawn fain. you don't have to figure out, well, what does he mean by this? when he and shawn fain both tell their constituencies, their work as american workers, that this guy who you are thinking of voting for, donald trump, this guy who maybe you voted for in 2016, maybe in 2020, this guy is a faker. he's after your health plan. he's after your family's level of affluence. he is not for you. >> yeah, the white house desperately wanted this endorsement. it was never really in doubt. a political win. fain said he knows some of his members will vote for donald trump, the white working class voters that donald trump made a backbone of his coalition, but this will matter. he called donald trump a scab, and it'll resonate, it'll break through. president biden fancied himself

as the most pro-labor president we've ever had, certainly in decades. it is all about, to our discussion earlier, joe, the three states, pennsylvania, wisconsin, michigan. this is going to play well there. it is not a coincidence that president biden is heading to wisconsin today to talk about infrastructure, which also matters with these exact voters. >> i'll tell ya, you're right, white working class union voters have voted republican, and a lot broke off and voted republican for quite some time. i told this story time and again. a union member told me, kid, shut up, stop talking about union workers. we're voting for you. i was like, yes, sir. but you look at how tough that address is. you're right, most of the time when union presidents endorse a candidate, it's like, okay, yeah. in this case, man, mike, you really felt it. like when sean o'brien was in

the senate testifying, baby, you felt it. maybe we can meet up with him at fenway. i just want to walk around with him, feel a little safer. >> oh, yeah. >> but you felt it. this was real. i'm not just saying that. republicans know this, too. donald trump did what union workers would say did what a scab would do. he lied. he pretended to be going to a union shop. while he was doing that and siding with the owners, you had joe biden on the line with union workers. why does this matter? this matter because i really think, for the first time, for the first time in a long time, you're going to see a lot of those union workers who voted against their own interest for cultural reasons, for other reasons, just like, you know, what felt right in their gut, they're going to see this. they're going to remember that trump -- what he did, and they're going to vote democratic

again. they're going to come home. >> i don't think there is any doubt about that, joe. the message you get from shawn fain, from sean o'brien, from the teamsters, is that he is not for you. he is not for us. he is for himself. they can prove it. they can prove it by his rhetoric, by his behavior, his appearances, by what he says, and how he behaves about them. really, he talks down to them. he talks down to everybody because he's smarter than everybody. >> well, you know, the thing is, also, tax cuts for billionaires and multinational corporations, that's what donald trump gave in his first term. that's one of the few things he got passed. it was tax cuts for billionaires and multinational corporations. >> and bragged about it. >> he bragged about it. he said to his billionaire friends after he passed it at mar-a-lago, he goes, "i just made you all a lot of money." mika, he is promising again tax cuts for the rich, tax cuts for billionaires, tax cuts for

multinational corporations, and tax increases for working americans through tariffs. >> you can believe him. while president biden, by the way, is winning the support of blue collar workers, it appears white collar financial leaders are warming up to the former president. they like their tax cut, you know? ed luce, you write about this in your latest piece entitled "wal street's bargain with trump." qufteronald trump's attempted putsch on january 6th, u.s. leaders lined up to condemn the storming of capitol hill. jamie dimon, chief executive of jpmorgan,d f a peaceful transfer of power. this is not who we are as a people or country, he said. >> jamie was right. >> dimon changed his tune. trump did many good things in ce,dimon said. buness was ready for either joe biden or trump. my company wil survive and thrive in both. >> huh, yeah.

>> many businessrs argue that trump's -- >> not exhale. >> -- bark is worse than his bite. people warned about trump's threat to democracy in 2017, but the republic is sll alive and kick. i have heard variations on this line from many inside and outside business. it suffers from a fatal flaw, amica's system remains in tact because trump was blocked from overturning it. including the election. >> ed luce, when i hear people saying, come on now, you guys whined about how bad it was. it wasn't that bad. we survived four years. we survived four years. >> some didn't. >> some didn't. we survived four years as a republic because donald trump's attempt to overthrow a presidential election was stopped. if he'd gotten away with it, american democracy as we knew it would be over. >> the amnesia is quite remarkable. it's the same people who are

saying this to you and i, joe, that it wasn't that bad. the republic is resilient. they were the ones issuing statements on january 6th saying this is a threat to the republic and cannot go on. what changed? in davos last week, the consensus among u.s. business people who were there, including jamie dimon, is, i think, quite wrongly, that, a, trump has a good chance of winning in november. they're already banking that. b, therefore, we have to get with the program. we have to accommodate ourselves to trump 2.0 and start flattering him. he responds to flattery. donating to his campaign. telling people, look, his bark is worse than his bite. don't worry, it's all going to be fine. it's just for ratings. pay him no attention. what's the real reason here? well, it's kind of the mirror image of what you were

discussing with shawn fain and the uaw's endorsement of biden. it's capital wants more tax cuts. if the price for more tax cuts is 10% tariffs on everything, the end of u.s. democracy, autocracy in america couldn't happen here. if that's the price for getting a fatter bottom line for jpmorgan and jamie dimon's friends, they're prepared to have amnesia. >> well, i'll tell ya, i've known jamie dimon for a long time. i like him. i was shocked. i was shocked when i heard this. now, andrew ross sorkin, who conducted the interview with him, said it was a little more rounded out than what the headlines have seen. if that is the case, i'd like to see more of the interview and like to hear more about this. we can take pictures of jamie

down. because this is a guy, donald trump, who promised to terminate the constitution. he said he was going to ban tv networks that he didn't like. said he was going to execute generals that were insufficiently loyal to him for, quote, treason, which, by the way, sounds like the french revolution with the guillotine. they accused everyone of treason and cut their heads off. then he talked about, a couple weeks ago, how he could kill his political opponents -- >> immunity. >> -- with seal team six and be immune from it. he should be immune from all things. he talks about viktor orban, and maybe you understand that better than people on wall street. orban has shut down a free press. viktor orban crushed political opponents. viktor orban is an autocrat who hates western democracy and freedom. free markets, the way wall street claims to like free

markets. you can't make a deal with the devil. you lose every time. >> people around orban, you know, including the local gas man in his village, the guy who does the gas connections, have grown rich beyond their wildest fantasies. they're billionaires. those that are in with him get rewarded. that's how strongmen operate. they don't operate according to free market capitalist rules where -- >> ed, on the other side of that, people that owned media empires, like people that controlled newspapers or controlled tv stations that were opposed to him, they got charged with crimes, got literally, you know -- the value of their company went down to zero. orban said, i'll buy it from you. you can leave the country or go to jail. so, yeah, the local gas man got rich. people running the free press

got thrown in jail. politicians got run out of country. i mean, this is what america faces under a second donald trump administration, who brags that orban is a strongman that he loves, that he is going to be like. >> cpac, thely say orban is the model for trump. this isn't paying a compliment to a fellow traveler across the atlantic. it is a much more conscious desire to imitate orban. orban is what trump wants to be. punishing critics, rewarding friends, a crony system, patronage system. if you're a friend of trump, you can become a monopolist. i think business leaders -- i don't think jamie dimon is a trumpian. he is a registered democrat, i believe. i think his ultimate loyalty is to jpmorgan's bottom line.

he knows that if jpmorgan gets out of line under a second trump administration, which will be far more serious than the first one, that it will get punished. trump will have no compunction about using the powers of the presidency to reward and punish with favors and fines. >> isn't it amazing, mika, that a party who has grown up, the party i was in, that always talked about personal freedom and liberties, talked about small business, take as much money, power, and authority out of washington as possible, get it into local governments, get it into classrooms, get it into local police districts. >> mm-hmm. >> here, you have a republican party, cpac, what a joke, let's not even get started with cpac, and the heritage foundation, what a joke. >> rnc. >> the rnc.

these institutions that used to praise personal liberty, personal freedoms, small government, are all now, as ed said, they have readjusted. now, they're in support of autocracy. they're in support of a strongman leader. they're in support, the same people who bitch and moan about the western values being destroyed, western civilization is at risk, those people now worship, as does donald trump, leader of a failed country who has said he hates western democracy. sas western democracy is dead. he says, i'm an illiberal democrat. >> yeah, well -- >> that's where they've gone. >> yeah, if you get what you want, you're not going to like it. national editor at "the financial times", ed luce.

thank you very much for your piece and for coming on this morning. we appreciate it. former president donald trump is expected to be in court today as the defamation damages trial involving writer e. jean carroll is set to resume in new york. trump and his attorneys claim he wants to testify in his own defense, but it is unclear if he actually will take the stand. the trial had been postponed since monday due to a juror's illness. trump has continued to defame social media at least 37 times over a two-hour time pio late last night. >> willie, we're talking about -- >> this is not normal. >> we're talking about a guy, look at that guy. that's who the republican party wants to have represent them in the fall. we're talking about a guy still attacking this woman that the judge said he raped. >> yeah. >> unbelievable.

>> in a defamation case, on the eve of taking the stand to try to defend himself against having to pay a bunch of money. his brilliant legal strategy is to be up all night, posting 37 times, going after e. jean carroll. >> sounds very obsessive. >> let's go outside the courtroom. former litigator, msnbc legal analyst lisa rubin is standing in the rain for us. lisa, thank you so much. >> hey, willie. >> will donald trump take the stand today, and what will it look like if he does? >> willie, if you had asked me before monday, i would have said no, are you kidding? but then on monday, i saw something that changed my mind. that's the presence of two of trump's criminal defense attorneys that, between them, represent him in three of his four cases. they are susan and todd blanche. their presence here convinced me that they were here to watch their client take the stand, because no one, even susan necklace and todd blanche, viewed among the premier lawyers in trump's orbit, couldn't

convince him not to take the stand. before he does, willie, and before he has the choice, we're going to hear from donald trump while the man sits silent at the table. that's because e. jean carroll's lawyer, robbie kaplan, is expected to play a series of video tapes. those include excerpts from prior deposition, including the one he gave in the ag's case that was unveiled to us last week, where he is boasting about his brand and how much cash he has on hand. she is going to attempt to play video tapes of donald trump on the stump this week where she repeats his defamation against e. jean carroll. those are relevant for the jury to consider as they think about what it will take to get donald trump to stop, which is the purpose of punitive damages, willie. >> what is the strategy from the trump side? as you pointed to, robbie kaplan ran circles around donald trump.

remember the famous moment she showed a photograph of e. jean carroll and he said, that was marla maples, after saying that e. jean carroll isn't my type, a stunning defense to begin with. what does the trump team stand to gain by putting him on the stand? >> i have absolutely no idea. legally, what they stand to gain. here's the convergence of the legal and political strategies. the last couple months, we've been talking about the increasing overlap of the strategy and calendar. here, there's no daylight between them. all he is attempting to do here, i believe, is manufacture a dispute with the judge, the sort of conflagration we will all have to cover, that will endear him to his base and get people like us in a froth. i'm not looking forward to it, to be totally honest with you. >> lisa, how much longer do you think federal judge kaplan is going to put up with donald

trump continuing to talk about him cervically out of court? >> talking about the judge? >> yeah, how long? go ahead. >> you go ahead. >> i don't think judge kaplan has concern for himself. he is an article 3 judge. he has lifetime tenure and the protection of the u.s. marshals. he is hardy stuff. judge kaplan, like judge chutkan and judge engoron, they didn't say donald trump couldn't talk about them. there is a concern for the jurors and other people in the courtroom, but not a single one of these judges has ever taken a step to limit donald trump from talking about them. they understand this is the job. they're public servants. they're diligent. they're going to let him

continue. >> e. jean carroll's team handed 30 pieces of new evidence in the overnight hours in the form of donald trump's posts. msnbc legal analyst lisa rubin, should be a fascinating day there. thank you so much. joining us now, msnbc contributor, former attorney barbara mcquaid, author of the upcoming book, "attack from opinion: how misinformation is sabotaging america," out february 27th. barbara, good morning. let's get your take. donald trump, do you think he'll get on the stand today? if he does, what will that look like on both sides? >> well, if i were advising him legally, willie, the answer would be absolutely not. it is a highly risky proposition, and he doesn't have much to gain. his strategy has been to go after e. jean carroll and deny the allegations. that's not what this case is about. this case is all about damages. i would try to limit the damage by keeping him off the stand. as lisa said, his defense

attorneys there, it signals he may be taking the stand and they're there for damage control, to get him to stop if he delves into areas that could be damaging in a criminal context. i think one of his strategies is less than legal and more political. i think he's calculated that he is going to have to pay whatever he has to pay, and he'll keep getting in his shots because this is all about demonstrating to his followers that he is above the law. nobody can rein him in and tell him what to do. that is his strength. this is more about a political strategy than it is a legal strategy. >> all right. to another case involving donald trump, your latest article for msnbc is entitled "the two things that can both be true aboi willis' new ethics controversy." you write, two things can be true. the allegations that fulton county district attorney fani willis is involved in a romantic laonship with an attorney working in her office, and the

strong legal case willis has brought against former president donald trump and his rico co-defendants in georgia. willis may have committed serious ethical lapses in managing her office by engaging in a romantic relationship with a subordinate. but even if true, the fact that -- that fact hasutely nothing to do with the guilt or innocence of michael roman, trump, andhe co-defendants. udge will certainly see the difference. if willis engaged in an undisclosed romantic relaip with a colleague in the biggest case of her career, itil reflect an enoou lapse of professional judgment, but it is willisho should be punished, not theeoe of georgia. her imperfections should not lead to injustice. >> the question is, how long could this delay the trial? >> i don't think it should delay the trial at all. there are two separate issues here, and that's the point i try

to make in the piece. perhaps she has an ethical issue. that is a matter for fulton county board of ethics to review. perhaps she engaged in an undisclosed romantic relationship. perhaps she was supervising someone who she was in a relationship with. perhaps she misspent funds. that's relating to her as a manager of the office. when it comes to conflicts of interest as a lawyer, there is nothing that affects the fair trial rights of donald trump or his co-defendants. so that case should proceed apace. there is nothing about this. it is important to draw the distinction between those ethical issues. i think the court will do that, but, you know, in the court of public opinion, donald trump and his followers want to say, this means the whole case is tainted. that's just not true. those are two very different concerns. >> we've been waiting now for some time for a federal appeals court in washington to make its ruling on whether or not donald trump or any president has full

immunity. people are starting to wonder when exactly this ruling is coming. it's been rumored a few weeks ago. still hasn't emerged. what's your sense of the delay? when do you think we might hear? >> ordinarily, courts of appeals take months and months to exchange drafts and wordsmith the language and get everything just right. in this case, i think we anticipated a much quicker output from the court because they're on an expedited briefing basis. they held oral arguments promptly. it's been a couple of weeks. if i were a betting person, i'd bet for tomorrow because fridays are the days people set for legal deadlines. they say to everybody, look, everybody, by the end of the week, we have to get this out. but every day that goes by is a day that that trial is delayed, and so getting this decision out and back on track is really important. i fully expect that the court will decide that donald trump is not immune, based on their questions, based on the law. you know, he may go further and appeal this to the full circuit

court on bond, and he may also appeal it to the supreme court. giddy up, d.c. circuit court of appeals. >> barbara mcquade walking us through it all. thank you so much. ahead on "morning joe," jon stewart is making a comeback to late night tv. we'll have details on the comedian's surprise return to "the daily show." plus, kevin bacon and kyra sedgwick will be live in studio talking about what they're doing to help democrats get elected this year. and as we head to break, some great news and an addition to the "morning joe" family, one of our stage managers, rashone and his wife welcomed storie noel williams, a healthy 9 pounds and 12 ounces. mom is doing great. big sister harlem is happy to help out. congratulations.

welcome to the party story. we'll be right back on "morning joe." (♪♪) some people just know that the best rate for you is a rate based on you, with allstate. because you know that just because it fits in the cupholder doesn't make it 'to-go'. and you know how to brake, without breaking everything. and you're definitely not doing -okay, i don't even know what this is, but you're definitely not doing that. with allstate you're connected to a rate based on you. (♪♪)

welcome back to "morning joe." it is 36 past the hour. president biden is headed to wisconsin tod to tout his administration's economic accomplishments, and in a surprise move, secretary yellen is also headed to the midwest. she'll be in chicago today for the first in a series designed to promote the economic gains under president biden. joining us now from the white house, deputy secretary of the treasury, and thank you for coming on the show this morning.

is there any risk to touting the success of the economy, given that some of the gains haven't reached all americans who really feel it, or unforeseen changes in the months to come? >> thanks for having me this morning. what the secretary and the president are doing is talking about the american middle class, recover from a historic pandemic that impacted the world. not only talking about what we've done to create the recovery but what comes next. the risk is not getting out and making sure we talk to the american people about the fact we're seeing pages go up, inflation come down, seeing an economy grow, but we also need to continue to make investments. that's also what the secretary and the president are talking about, to grow the middle class. >> what do you say to especially republicans who seem to be putting the brakes on getting anything done? will there be any talk of contrast between what the president has accomplished and

what the republicans are doing to block his accomplishments? >> i think the president and the secretary will talk about the choices we've made. choices like extending the child tax credit for middle class families rather than giving a tax cut to wealthy americans. choices like investing in small businesses so they can stay open during the pandemic, versus giving tax breaks to huge, multinational companies. they also want to talk about the future, the choices to make to make sure we're investing in things like infrastructure, building a clean energy revolution. all these things are only possible if we do it working through the middle class. we're excited to see the ways in which the middle class has grown. over the last three years of the administration, we've seen applications for 16 million small businesses. these are americans investing in the economy and taking a chance. the president and secretary want to talk about the ways we can invest in them to grow out the middle class. >> mr. deputy secretary, there's been a lot of discussion in the last year or so about how the economy, most metrics positive, doing pretty well. polls suggest american voters simply weren't feeling it and

weren't giving the biden administration much credit. but there's signs that might be changing. there is the new consumer sentiment numbers that are up. people are starting to feel better about it. what can you guys do to sort of ensure that continues in the year ahead? >> the most important thing to remember is ultimately, the american people are the ones building the economy. our goal has got to be to invest in them. that's what we have done the last few years. you've seen the historic number of jobs that have been created, more than 7.2 million. inflation coming down. gas prices are down $1.90 since june of '22. what the president and secretary will say today is we're going to continue to do just that, continue to invest in the middle class to build out an infrastructure in america that will not only build roads and bridges but invest in things like high-speed internet. i lived in chicago before i came to washington, d.c., to take this job. there are parts of chicago that can use those types of investments. there are places throughout the country that need them. this morning, when i read the secretary's speech again, i

thought about my parents, an educator and a nurse, and the fact they could have used a child tax cut as they were raising us in a small apartment in california. they couldn't have benefitted from what we saw in the last administration, tax cuts for the wealthy and for corporations that cost us $2 trillion. the president is committed to not only making sure we invest in the middle class but we do it in a way by increasing modestly taxes on the wealthy and also on these big businesses, so that we're doing it in a way that brings down our debts and deficits over time. >> deputy secretary of the treasury, wally, thank you for coming on the show this morning. we appreciate it. >> thanks for having me. and coming up on "morning joe" -- >> every vote really does count, and sometimes it comes down to a very -- >> it really does count. sorry. >> kevin bacon and kyra sedgwick join us to talk about their work with the progressive organization swing left, and what the group is doing to try

and help democrats win back the house and more. that's straight ahead on "morning joe."

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democrats shock the political world, coming this close to maintaining their house majority in the 2022 midterms, missing out by five seats. all of those races decided by less than 1%. all together, democrats lost the five seats by a combined total of about 6,700 votes out of more than 100 million ballots cast. progressive grassroots organizations like swing left now are gearing up for november to ensure there are no near misses like those this time around. today, the group releasing a list of 12 states it is focusing on to win back the house and hold on to the senate and the white house. joining us on behalf of swing left, golden globe winning actors kevin bacon and kyra

sedgwick. good to see you. >> thank you. good to see you guys. >> we can dig into the restaurant scene later. you're deep in conversation about that. tell us about swing left. this is not a new organization. it came to be in the early days of the trump administration, kyra. what was the impetus behind it, and what are some of the goals this time around? >> you know, i think i learned about swing left in 2017 when i was feeling a lot of hopelessness and despair around what happened in 2016. i feel like, to a certain extent, you know, i was living in a dream state of being asleep. i think a lot of democrats felt that way. suddenly, here we are in the situation we were in. i became very excited and hopeful about joining an organization that did all the math for me and helped me to figure out the flippable, winnable seats in the 2018 midterms.

swingleft.org is an incredible organization that helps me to turn my despair into activism and hopefulness. they have a plan for the election. as you said, a lot of these seats are going to come down to, you know, a couple thousand votes. we really need all hands on deck here, and we're excited to talk about how people can really dig in. >> kevin, we can talk about some of the specific races in a minute, but you both talk about the feeling of despair that i think a lot of americans still feel. they go, oh, are we going to do this again, and they disengage from the process in some ways. you guys are making the case for the opposite. >> yeah, exactly right. i think of the same thing. i get up in the morning, sometimes i read the paper and go, oh, i don't know what to do about this feeling. sometimes the impetus is to step back and say, well, i can't do anything. you know what? you know, this is our country. this is our democracy. these are the things that we believe in.

if you get in any way active as swing left will very easily steer you in that direction, you will feel better. you will. i mean, because you feel like you are, you know, taking control over, you know, your future, basically. that's what they're so great about. swingleft.org makes it easy. >> kyra, let's talk about some of the states that matter this time around and what this organization is trying to do. the house and the senate, two very different scenarios. in the house, it is blue states. new york let democrats down last time around, new york and california key this time. if the democrats are going to keep the senate, couple red states, montana and ohio. what's going to happen? >> god, if i knew the answer to that question. >> what will the organization do? >> well, i think what they're really great at is learning and doing all the math about what the actual winnable seats are.

so they help people to -- they direct money and volunteers. they train volunteers to knock on doors, to do letter writing campaigns, and to do, of course, phone banking. all of that kind of, you know, flesh on flesh, person to person talking and encouraging people to get out and vote hopefully will be the key to winning some of these elections. >> you know, if you get out there, not just in your neighborhood, your own neighborhood, but anywhere in the country, you are bound to encounter someone in conversation who will raise the following issue with you. i think we're losing our country. it's a letter-writing campaign that you began. >> yep. >> so letter-writing from the civil war on through vietnam,

letter-writing, the personal letter -- >> yep. >> -- was enormously impactful both emotionally to the recipient -- >> yeah. >> -- as well as just the letter itself. how is that working? how do you do it? how do you select who you send the letters to, and who writes the letters? >> so we have had letter-writing parties at our house. we invite friends over. people extend to people, you know, we get a couple of cheap bottles of wine or coffee or whatever, cookies, and we have a box of letters that are addressed in, you know, in these battleground states to democratic voters. you write something personal. it's very -- it's really satisfying, strangely because it is as you pointed out, pen on paper, you know. licking the envelope, putting it in the box and sending it to somebody, something that they can hold in their hands.

very different than a robo-call. >> yes. >> very different than the sea of emails telling us about gloom and doom. you can say, i'm sending you this because, you know, i care about democracy. >> this is why i vote. >> this is why i vote. >> you know, and they make it so easy on the site because they'll help you to download all the letters, dear whatever, and then you sign, and then they also have all the addresses. so they make it incredibly easy for you. so, you know, it's really not hard. it's also a communal thing. >> yeah. >> it helps people to feel like they're in a community. if we all feel so alone and isolated in our own fear and our own worry, we're going to be -- feel frozen, but if we come together and have these communal experiences trying to effect change, nothing in this country's ever changed in this country without a people-powered movement. it's all about people, and, you know, i think these, you know, both sides to a degree try to

tell us that we don't have the power, but we do. we have the power. it's we the people. that's all it is. >> my big takeaway is we're all invited to your house to drink wine. drink wine and write letters. >> what kind of cookies? >> we'll put the home address down there on the bottom of the screen there so you can come over. kevin and kyra both, let's talk about how democrats are feeling right now. yes, it feels like a time of almost panic that it could -- donald trump could return to the white house, but about joe biden, he's not this obama-like figure that inspires a movement and everything else, but if you look at the data, you look at how the economy's doing and you look at all of that, the country is moving in the right direction. the white house would make that case. >> yes. i completely agree. i think he's done a really incredible job. i think the economy is thriving, and i think that -- i think that he's incredible. of course, i'm very happy about what he's done about climate, you know. of course, there's much more that we could do, but i'm happy

he's, you know, in the game of doing the work that needs to be done. >> yeah, and i think, you know, if possible, just look at the issues. just focus on the issues. just focus on the things that you really care about, that mean something to you, and look at the two options there, you know? and if you -- if you go to the issues, it's a no-brainer. >> before we let you go, kyra, you directed your husband a couple of years ago in "space odyssey". >> yes. >> was that the first time it ever happened? if so, how difficult was he? >> it was not the first time. he was also in my first movie, and surprisingly easy. boring answer. >> i'm sitting here. the question doesn't really work. >> we'll talk offline. >> have her back by herself. >> when i come over to write the letters, we'll catch up. >> we'll hang. >> if you want more information on how to get involved, visit

swingleft.org. so great to see you both. >> thank you. >> thank you. still ahead, nikki haley shifting her strategy a bit on donald trump as she returns home to south carolina. we'll show you how she's now taking on the republican front-runner a little more directly on the trail. plus new hampshire's results impacting donations to her campaign. all that ahead on "morning joe." n all that ahead on "morning joe." if you try vaping to quit smoking, it might feel like progress, but with 3x more nicotine than a pack of cigarettes - vapes increase cravings - trapping you in an endless craving loop. nicorette reduces cravings until they're gone for good.

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in order for small businesses to thrive, they need to be. smart, efficient, savvy. making the most of every opportunity. trump defeated nikki haley 54-43. it's the very first time he's ever been happy to see a woman in her 40s. >> he won by 11 points. he beat nikki haley by double-digits. he's also leading nikki haley by double-digits in felony charges, 91-0. >> trump cruised to victory and just like most cruises, half the people parted while the other half felt very sick.

♪♪ good morning, and welcome to "morning joe" on this thursday, january 25th. we have a lot to get to this morning including the red flags. with donald trump's campaign coming out of new hampshire, new exit polls are exposing his weaknesses in a general election. it comes as the haley campaign -- >> what a shock by the way. you mean he's weak in the general election? who would have -- >> i don't know. >> -- ever seen that in 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022, or 2023. who could have seen this? >> it comes as the haley campaign has seen a significant bump in donations since tuesday's primary. >> look at the orange. we're going to go back. >> it's a really pretty dress. >> it is. it's a beautiful dress. >> gorgeous. >> we do wonder about -- you see the makeup. it's caked on orange. >> i don't know what's going on there. >> look at it. >> i don't know.

i don't want to -- i don't think it would be right to talk about someone's appearance. i mean, it's not presidential. >> just orange. >> exactly. >> i think i would probably -- if i were living in the glass house he's living in -- >> yeah. >> -- i would probably just drop the rocks to my feet. >> okay. so we'll go through all of that. plus, the latest -- >> wait. there's more. >> the latest on capitol hill on the border deal which includes urgent funding for ukraine. we'll have new reporting on what minority leader mitch mcconnell is saying behind closed doors. >> and can i just say ukrainians are dying every single day because of the house republicans. not because of, like, some bureaucratic snafu or oh, we don't know who. not because of mitch mcconnell, not because of the senate republicans, but it is the house republicans that are playing right into vladimir putin's hands and causing more ukrainian children to be killed. >> yeah. >> they don't care.

that's the thing. they have the speaker that's been pro-putin since the beginning of this war. >> well, the very latest on that. also the second defamation trial against donald trump is expected to resume this morning in new york with possible testimony from the former president. how does he find the time? along with joe, willie and me, we have the host of "way too early," jonathan lemire, jim messina, who served as deputy chief of staff to president obama and ran his 2012 re-election campaign, and also with us this morning, conservative attorney george conway is with us. >> so willie, yesterday, of course, if you went to any major news publication, if you went to drudge, i mean, it was lit up with stories about how here's a shock. breaking news. please, stop everything. donald trump has weaknesses in the general election. i mean, it's crazy that that's

even a news story now, but we're going to talk about that in a second. i want to talk about how remarkable it is that you have house republicans, people that are in the party that ronald reagan used to be a member of, that are sitting by knowing they're causing ukrainians to die, sitting by knowing they're standing in the way of israeli funding, and they have from the beginning, you know? they tried some trick about, oh. well, this time, israeli -- we never paid for any other aid, but we're going to have to pay for israeli aid. that's what the speaker was saying about israel, and then on the border, they're just out and out saying, we're going to let fentanyl keep flooding across the border killing americans even though we could stop it. we're going to let illegal immigrants keep flooding across the border, causing chaos for communities, chaos for cities like new york by uncontrolled

immigration. immigration's great. it's got to be controlled. we now have the senate republicans in the white house, and the senate republicans with the toughest border deal ever that would stop fentanyl from flooding across the border. they're saying no, and they're admitting -- republicans are admitting, house republicans, no, we don't want to fix this. we don't want to fix the fentanyl problem right now. we don't want to fix the illegal immigrant problem right now because joe biden might get a little bit of credit for that. that's how sick they are. they're saying, keep the border open for another year. >> yeah. they got as good a deal as they could ever hope for sitting right in front of them. it actually reminds you a little bit of 2016 when the entire chant was, "build that wall"ple build that wall. they said there was a crisis at the border. donald trump was elected and they controlled both parts, and

they banged their drum about it. the republicans are saying, we're there. we're at the end zone, the thing we've wanted for so long and you won't take the deal. you won't take the deal. we're even hearing rumblings inside the senate that mitch mcconnell might be getting a little shaky on this and saying, well -- the nominee who he's calling donald trump doesn't want us to do this deal. so the house has been the problem. is it spreading to the senate now is the question? >> it sure looks that way. the analysis appears to be changing, and it's not just the house republicans and it now looks like it's going to be the senate republicans too. minority leader mcconnell in a closed door meeting with his colleagues yesterday suddenly spoke very differently about this deal than he had in the past. we know mcconnell has been very strong and adamant that the u.s. needs to support ukraine. he still is, but he thinks these packages need to be separate which would doom the ukraine funding because there wouldn't be enough support because the only way to get republicans to back ukraine would be to have this border security deal, but

mcconnell is admitting that trump is saying we don't want this deal, and he is suggesting -- he says, here. quote, the politics on this have changed. he says, we don't want to do anything to undermine him, him being trump meaning we don't want to take an election issue away from trump, and if mcconnell suddenly go soft on this deal, it's going to be doomed, and it shows again, the grip that trump has on the party, and also mitch mcconnell, though he at times has spoken up strongly against trump, he has acknowledged he will vote for him again. he did not follow through trying to convict trump in his second impeachment trial post-january 6th, and he seems to be doing his bidding for his campaign even if it hurts the american people and submarines a deal that most people say they want. >> joe, we might be going from a situation where you could have had both. you could have had immigration reform and support for ukraine to having neither, and by the way we should point out that ukraine is almost out of ammunition, and their leadership

is crying from the mountaintops. >> yeah. >> effectively this war is now in the hands of the united states congress. we can't win without the united states congress doing something, and that congress is sitting on its hands right now. >> and the rest of the world is watching, understanding that house republicans who have been pro-putin from the beginning with their votes, house republicans from the party of ronald reagan are siding with a russian kgb agent who invaded ukraine. it is -- jim messina, if you take -- take a step back. just looking at this politically, i just -- i do. i am baffled by just how stupid -- baffled. baffled every day by how stupid republicans -- baffled by the fact that the two biggest issues in america, the two biggest issues in new hampshire, the two

biggest issues in iowa were what? immigration and the economy. donald trump has said already he wants the economy to crash. he wants there to be a great depression. he wants people's life savings just wiped out and destroyed so he can get re-elected president. so that's the economy. now let's talk about immigration. republicans are saying this is the toughest border security bill we've ever gotten, but house republicans are saying, let's kill it. donald trump is saying, let's kill it. on the two most important issues, we have the solutions to them. the best we have had in decades and donald trump says no, and the house republicans are going along. this is just -- this is a -- these are two campaign issues that democrats should be able to absolutely trounce republicans on.

>> oh, joe. you're exactly right. i mean, how much longer do we need to say that the republican party is pro-america. they're pro-the republican party. >> they're pro-donald trump. they're pro- -- they're not even pro-republican party. these actions hurt the republican party. >> you're exactly right because if you're a house republican or senate republican, what exactly are you running for re-election on in november? you have done nothing. you have done nothing on the two issues that define the day. on the economic issue, you've fought joe biden for two years on all the things that oh by the way have actually saved the american economy and helped towards this soft landing we may be having, and on immigration, you're exactly right. they have been campaigning on this for seven years. they couldn't get it done on their own. they have a deal in front of them that honestly is the best deal they're ever going to have. this is a political layup, and they can't even take this

because donald trump called mitch and said, oh. we can't do this because of the politics. at what point do you do what's best for your country? at what point do you do what's best for the people that you continue to lie to? >> yeah. at what point? at what point? when the republican party finally turns their back on donald trump, and again, let's be very clear here. donald trump's two positions here are one, keep the border open because donald trump says keeping the border open for illegal immigrants and fentanyl is good for him despite the fact that -- donald trump says, keep the border open, mitch. keep the border open, mikey, and they're listening. that's number one. number two is let the economy crash. he has said it. let the economy crash. it will be better for him. he wants your 401ks destroyed. he wants your retirement plans

destroyed. he wants your stock market portfolio destroyed. he wants everything destroyed. he wants you out in the streets. he said he wants joe biden to be herbert hoover because the economy is doing so well. so again, very clear here. forget about the fact that he stole nuclear secrets. forget about the fact that a jury's found him guilty of sexual abuse of a woman. forget the fact the judge in that same courtroom said drump -- donald trump raped that woman. forget the illegal payoffs to porn stars. forget. >> forget it. >> all of it. you're saying, why can't we talk about policies? let's talk about the policies that the dictaor wannabe wants to do. one, he has said he wants the economy to crash. he said it. there's tape. he said it.

chinese religious websites, chinese cults can't get in the way of the fact that he said that truth. trump said i want the economy to crash, one, and number two, he's made it very clear. he said i want to keep the border open. open for fentanyl. democrats, are you listening? you're running against a party whose two platforms this year are let the economy crash and keep the border open. repeat after me. trump wants and republicans that you are running against are going along with trump, they want to wreck the economy and they want to keep the border open. >> yay, we overturned roe. >> does that -- oh yeah. they want to keep that right away, three, and number four -- >> yeah. >> i mean, number four, they want to re-elect a guy who wanted to destroy the economy. oh, and hey wait. there's more, mika.

>> there's always more. >> they have promised -- they want to take away your health care. these are all things they said. this is nothing that primetime of msnbc or "the new york times" editorial page said. this is donald trump. >> right. >> and republicans and what they've said. judge them by what they do and yes, judge them when they confess. >> so despite donald trump's win in new hampshire's republican primary on tuesday, exit polls suggest major problems ahead for donald trump if he advances to the general election. now according to analysis by fox news, 35% of gop primary voters in the granite state say they won't vote for trump if he is the party's nominee in november. well, when a similar question was asked of nikki haley, voters in new hampshire, 94% told cnn they would be dissatisfied if trump wins the nomination.

among that same group, 83% said they would consider trump unfit for office if he is convicted of a crime by election day. >> yeah, you know, it's crazy. i mean, he's talking about terminating abortion, terminating roe v. wade. the polls there showed that issue also weighed heavily -- >> absolutely. >> -- on the minds of new hampshire voters, and so there you have 66%. george conway, so, you know, even before the democratic party gets it out -- the truth out about how donald trump wants to wreck the economy and keep the borders open, you have these exit polls out of new hampshire that show 35% of the republicans there refuse to vote for donald trump. in iowa, only 14% of republicans in iowa -- so probably about a third of the -- about 14% of 33%

went out to vote in iowa because people were so uninspired by donald trump. talk about what we all know, what was splashed all over drudge yesterday that donald trump has a massive general election problem and he always will. >> yeah. he absolutely does, and it's getting worse and worse because the trumpian base is being stripped to its core, and he's shedding people who actually want to do something that's right for the country, and it's becoming more and more apparent to people that trump is a destructive force, and it's not just as you described so well, a trump being this nihilistic force from above affecting legislators. it's that base and that really dovetails with trump's attitude that we have to worry about. there was this article just the other day in politico where michael cruz interviewed a gop

voter in new hampshire who decided he was going to support trump, and basically this man didn't have any real -- he didn't have any clear policy views, but what he wanted to do was to attack the elites that he feels resentful of and who he thinks look down upon him and the way to do that is to essentially put donald trump in as a wrecking ball to destroy the country, and the voter was essentially asked, well, won't that hurt you? the voter acknowledged, yeah, sure. it would, but, you know, it's worth it to them, and those people are, you know, the core of the republican base right now that support trump, but other people don't want to be part of that anymore. they're sick of it. they're starting to see. they're starting to understand how bad it is, and those people are going to vote for anybody other than donald trump in the fall. >> jim messina. you have been consistently bullish about joe biden's chances in the general election, once we got to a general

election. a side by side. the country really dialed in and focused and watched donald trump, and we're starting to kind of see that. so as you look, as a guy who's run successful presidential campaigns, just at the numbers and the data that's come out of iowa and new hampshire, which is to say that donald trump's support is deep, but not very wide, that independents just don't want to go down this road again as george conway is saying here. they're looking at nikki haley, and they want some kind of alternative. they said they're open even to voting for joe biden. one thing is they know they will not vote for donald trump in the general election. what do you take away from the other side, from the democratic side over these two primary contests, one caucus, one primary? >> yeah, willie. you and i and joe and mika have been talking about the bedwetters and now you're seeing the republican panic. if i was the republican campaign manager for donald trump today, i would be throwing up into a basket at my desk, and the reason why i say that is that you cannot have a third of your

voters say that they won't vote for your guy in the general election if he's convicted of a crime because guess what? he's going to be in one of these four cases, especially the georgia one. so, like, that's going to happen. the other thing is he lost moderate voters by 53 points the other night to nikki haley. i mean, you just cannot do it. he lost college-educated voters by 15 points, and so if you extrapolate that to the general election, to the six or seven states that are really going to decide this election, there are just warning signs all over the place about what we have been saying for months which is donald trump is a bad general election candidate. the republicans have lost with him in '18. they lost with him in '20. they lost with him in '22, and they're in serious trouble again in 2024, and yet they continue to double down and do whatever this wrecking ball of a political machine tells them to do. coming up, despite losses in both iowa and new hampshire, nikki haley is seeing a significant fund-raising haul

and that appears to be bothering donald trump. >> in a big way. >> yeah. >> he's talking about blacklisting now. >> not happy. we'll explain next on "morning joe." happy we'll explain next on "morning joe.

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donald trump got out there and just threw a temper tantrum. [ laughter ] he pitched a fit. he was -- he was insulting. he was doing what he does, but i know that's what he does when he's insecure. i know that's what he does when he's threatened, and he should feel threatened without a doubt. it also goes back to why i've continued to push for a mental competency test for anyone over the age of 75. and so he got upset and he said that he would take one and he'd challenge me to one and he would beat me. maybe he would. maybe he wouldn't, but what i said is, okay.

well, if that's the case, then get on a debate stage and let's go. [ cheers and applause ] bring it, donald. show me what you got. >> so why is donald trump scared? he's petrified actually to get on a debate stage with a woman. he looks down on women so much. >> yeah. >> i don't understand why, you know, if she's -- what did he say? she's stupid. she's this, she's that. if that's the case, is it because he is old and because he thinks he's old and he thinks that he's losing his mind and he's afraid he's going to confuse her for nancy pelosi again? like, why is trump scared to death of nikki haley? >> i think because nikki haley is right there, just waiting to see what shoe drops, to see what happens, and so to an extent, what nikki haley represents is

is the last best hope for the republican party, if all of a sudden donald trump is taken off the stage because of his legal problems. so i think that kind of like, that's, like, right there in his head, you know? >> but willie, come on. he's scared. he's scared to debate because he doesn't think -- he just doesn't think he can -- i'm sure his campaign people are, like, yeah. we let him out on the stage with -- in front of a teleprompter and he confuses nikki haley and nancy pelosi. >> yeah. >> barack obama -- he thinks barack obama's president of the united states. he thinks he ran against him and beat him. like -- so they're horrified of the prospects of donald trump on a debate stage with nikki haley because i guess they don't think he's mentally fit. >> yeah. think about when is the last time you saw donald trump have to perform on his feet? meaning take a question from a voter, debate someone, do something where he had to be prepared and to react to something.

they don't put him in those situations anymore. it's not -- when you stand in front of an adoring crowd and vomit conspiracy theories and confuse nancy pelosi and nikki haley, that's not acting onnure -- on your feet. that's giing a speech. why not? go to charleston or columbia in south carolina and have a debate. it may seem like a small distinction, but different from new hampshire, nikki haley walked on the stage and started going after donald trump. those comments at the top of her speech -- >> she's made a decision. >> they were a little apologetic frankly when even we saw her in new hampshire and they came very late in the speech. i served in his administration. i was proud to serve under him, but chaos seems to follow him. she walked on the stage, took the mic and went after donald trump, and we'll see. fund-raiing has been there for her in the last 24 hours since that result in new hampshire where she came in second. she raised a million dollars

from 200,000, the campaign says, separate donors. 90% of the donations, 200 bucks or less. these are not the megadonors. the campaign also says haley will be in new york next week for several wall street fundraisers. that news has clearly gotten under the skin of donald trump who is now threatening to blacklist all donors to nikki haley. trump posting on social media, anyone making a contribution to haley, quote, will be permanently barred from the maga camp. we don't want them and will not accept them because we put america first and always will. haley responding, well, in that case, donate here. let's go, and providing a link for her campaign's fund-raising page. so george conway, you do see fear in the eyes of donald trump in that speech, the most ungracious political speech we've ever seen, victory speech anyway after winning new hampshire, just grievance-ridden and going after nikki haley

again and again. maybe he shouldn't be, but he appears afraid of her. >> oh, he absolutely is, and this is part and parcel so what i would like to talk about as his pathological narcissism and sociopathy. he pretends to be a stable genius because he's neither stable or a genius. he's deteriorating under the pressure of the legal cases and the results of his advanced age and kudos to nikki haley for finally going after him in the way that he needs to go after him, and the way people need to go after him including the biden campaign in the fall. you need to needle him. it's not -- the campaign has to be as much a psychological operation against donald trump's empty brain as it must be an

attempt to persuade voters because the two go hand in hand. you poke trump and you make him behave crazily, and then you point out the crazy, and then you point that out to the voters and it's a cycle, and it's really important that she keep doing this. i don't think it's going to end. she's done it a little bit too late, but i think it's important that she do it. >> so jim messina, you've run presidential campaigns. let's get your take as to what nikki haley needs to do here. she finished third in iowa, second in new hampshire, but still 11 points down. did she beat polling expectations? yes, but it was still a double-digit defeat, and to be sure, new hampshire exposed general election vulnerabiliies for donald trump. what should her game plan be for this next month or so? >> i don't give her much, jonathan, and the reason i don't is because we're going into places where there aren't independent and democratic voters who are allowed to be in

these primaries. we'll go into solid republican states where, you know, she's just getting crushed with these republican voters, but, you know, she finally got what she wants which is a one-on-one battle with donald trump and i love her speech yesterday. it's the nikki haley we should have seen two weeks ago in new hampshire and she's just trying to get this. she's going to try to get him on a debate stage and go right after him and show his weakness, but she's got to find a way to move with republican voters, and i just don't see how that's moving forward. i believe we're headed towards a biden/trump showdown and the haley experiment is just a little bit of a sideshow. coming up, one of you are next guests is taking a look at race and mental health in america. our colleague, antia hilton joining us with her new book on "morning joe." ilton joining us with her new book on "morning joe."

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israeli defense forces say a strike against the united nations facility in southern gaza did not come from israel's aerial forces or its artillery. a training center was hit yesterday killing nine people and injuring dozens of others. the u.n. has not said who it believes is responsible for the attack, but there are claims it was hit by tank rounds which are only used by israel. it is building a buffer zone inside of gaza now. a move the biden administration opposes because of concerns it will deepen palestinian fears that israel intends to occupy gaza. joining us now, president emeritus of the foreign relations, richard haass. we'll talk draftkings later,

but let's talk about what's happening inside israel. the civilians came from israel, and israel says it's not true, but it gets at the broader crisis here which is to say that it's only escalating, and it's not clear there's a solution that either side can live with. >> the reason it's not clear there's a solution is because there isn't. solution is a big word, but there are ways of managing this, but that would mean that both sides would have to change, and the israelis in particular would have to redefine what victory or success is. i think at some point, you'll get the israelis to cease major military operations. there will be a limited hostage release which would be good, and then the new story is a big one, the idea that the israelis are thinking of or going ahead of building a buffer area inside -- that's the keyword. inside gaza. seems to me that's misguided. october 7th happened in part not because of something hamas did, but because of what the israelis were unprepared for. so rebuilding israel's ability, intelligence and defense-wise to

repel any future attack from gaza, to me is essential, but that does not require doing it inside gaza which will just inflame everything and raise the question of what's israel's real design here? is it territorial expansion? is it denial of a palestinian entity and so forth? it seems to me, militarily whatever benefit you get it's politically misguide sgld the biden administration has made clear they oppose this buffer because they don't want the palestinians to lose any territory in gaza for exactly what you said, for fear of inflaming the local population and for stoking fears that israel will come in for permanent occupation. let's get to another part where israel is defying what the united states wants and we know -- we've reported on this show how much president biden has soured on prime minister netanyahu, but he's still in charge at least for now. what else can the u.s. do? is it time that whenever a funding deal does get done, to put conditions on it to israel?

>> this is another example where the united states is saying things and it's being rebuffed. it makes us look -- weak would be the generous word. a lot of people are sympathetic to israel on october 7th, appreciative of american support, and think we've essentially lost the narrative and we have been so unconditionally supportive that it's a mistake. it's only three things we can do, jonathan. one is as you suggest, tie some strings and say we can't give you this kind of ordnance and you don't need these weapons. or if we give them to you, you can't use them against these type of targets. or say, you can't use any american aid to build a buffer zone inside of palestinian territory. that one one thing. secondly in the united nations, rather than vetoing resolution, why don't we think, what can we put forward ourselves? what kind of resolution bhiegt -- might we support? also, president biden needs to see that benjamin netanyahu is not a partner. it's not good for the united

states or this relationship. he has got to go over his head. the president needs to give a speech to the israeli people, essentially saying where you are, what needs to change in your short-term policy. what needs to change over the long term, how the united states is with you, but you've got to do things that are in the interest of this relationship in your own self-interest? the israelis are not ready to talk about these issues, but the president has to start shaping the political context in israel. the good news is joe biden is far more popular in israel than bb netanyahu. he has an enormous opportunity here to shape the conversation and the context of what will ultimately be an israeli election. coming up, a look at how campaign funding that goes toward child care is helping more parents than ever run for office. "morning joe" is coming right back. office "morning joe" is coming right back he hits his mark —center stage—and is crushed by a baby grand piano.

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the united states congress. we can't win without you, so please do something. how dire is the situation now in ukraine, and how dire would it be if it goes on like this without funding from the united states? >> dire's the word, and, you know, look. i don't think it was in the cards for ukraine to roll back the russians, but to me the definition of victory, at least in the short run was that ukraine would continue to exist as a sovereign entity in charge of 80% of its territory. hopefully over time they would get back crimea, and we want it to be a functioning and safe

dees to the eu, potentially security ties to us and nato. we do not want that to be at stake. after the last two years, that's the great accomplishment. what congress is putting in jeopardy is the fundamental accomplishment. we're not talking anymore about ukraine rolling back russia. we're talking about continuing with the stakes going up fundamentally, and this is, you know, this is about as, again, fundamental as you get, and about the nature of the world, about european security, about the word of the united states. so what congress is doing is putting that at stake, why? because they don't want to give the president a political victory on the border because they think that would be bad for them politically. talk about not putting country before party. they call themselves patriots. this is a time to be patriotic. what's going on in the congress in the house? that's not patriotic. >> giving putin exactly what he wants, a withdrawal of the united states, and quickly also, richard, sweden now on the doorstep of nato membership. turkey's vote and needs one more vote, and that is hungary. the vote has to be unanimous. will they get there? >> for a price potentially, but

look. they're playing a very different game, and he's been difficult on all these issues. i was quite honestly, somewhat surprised that turkey came along. the price is there, and aircraft, they're going to do that. the issue is, what is the price? it will be a difficult pill to swallow given what he is. >> can i ask? why is -- i don't know why hungary is still in the eu. why are they still a member of nato? i asked that of turkey from time to time, but we know why they are a member of nato. they are geographically, extraordinarily so important. hungary is not important. they're pro-russian. they're illiberal. they hate western democracy and have said it. why don't we kick them out of nato? >> that's one problem, joe. when people are drafting the nato treaty back when, they forgot to put in a clause for kicking people out. countries like turkey and hungary can stay in there with

impunity. there is not a mechanism to boot somebody out. >> is there a mechanism to take away their vote? >> that, i don't know. i've never heard that, but the question is what i would say is if you have to, you work around it. you give countries de facto -- you give them 99% of the substance of membership perhaps without the packaging and you just do that. coming up, broadway stars kelly o'hara and brian darcy james join us from a preview of their brand-new musical, "days of wine and roses." "morning joe" is back in a moment. "morning joe" is back ina moment new projects means new project managers. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. when you sponsor a job, you immediately get

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51 past the hour. look at that spooky, artistic shot of new york city. it's time for a look at the morning papers.

the montgomery advertiser is reporting on alabama's plan to carry out the first ever execution of a death row inmate by nitrogen gas as soon as today. this after an appeals court rejected arguments the method violates the constitutional ban on cruel and unusual punishment. the untried method deprives the body of oxygen until the inmate can only breathe nitrogen, leading to suffocation. the orlando sentinel is spotlighting the measures by the florida house of representatives restricting minors' access to social media. children under the age of 16 across the state would be banned from popular social media platforms regardless of parent approval. it targets sites that track user activity and use addictive features. they say the platforms have

business models aimed at taking advantage of kids. the measure does not mention which social media sites will be impacted. we will be following that. the kalamazoo gazette on the declining trajectory of the state's economy, saying the state needs more skilled jobs or it risk further decline, shifting away from factory jobs toward high-salary jobs such as those in the finance and chemical fields is key to keeping the state financially sound. and in new hampshire, the concord monitor is looking at the growing number of news deserts across the u.s. an estimated 70 million americans now live in places with limited or no access to comprehensive local journalism.

this as local newspapers continue to shutter in the face of rising costs and competition from digital alternatives. now to new research showing child care obligations are among won consider when deciding to run for political office. imagine what our government would look like if women candidates didn't have to think about child care costs. that's what a new report is looking at from vote mama, a political action committee and foundation aimed at helping mothers with young children run for office. here so explain is maggie mcgrath and huma abedin. maggie, let's start with you. your team at forbes women got a first look at this report. give us the breakdown of women candidates using campaign funds

for child care at the federal, state and local levels. >> that's right. we talked to the folks at vote mama. they found that campaign funding for child care has surged since 2018, thanks to a ruling that allowed for the practice. at the federal level, we are seeing the increase of these funds at seven times the use we saw in 2018. parents across both sides of the aisle spent a total of $720,000 worth of funding to run for the house, the senate and the presidency. that's 68 candidates across the aisle, mothers and fathers. 56% of this figure was used by female candidates running for office. so we are seeing mothers using this funding to run for office. at the state and local level, again, we're seeing usage of campaign funding for child care really growing.

vote mama found that 87 candidates across the aisles spent $220,000 worth of this funding in 2022 alone. that is up from $10,001 in 2018. over the course of those four years, parents of all genders are spending about $300,000 to cover the cost of child care incurred while running for offices at state and judicial levels. 60% of this funding has been used by women. >> huma, the report also had some compelling stats on the usage of campaign funds for child care for women candidates of color. what were the findings and why does it matter? >> we talk about the importance of representative government all the time. i love the founder of vote mama. i talked to her in 2018 when she was running for congress.

she had a 1-year-old and a 3-year-old. i remember images of her strapping her 1-year-old onto herself as she campaigned. she didn't win that race but she decided she was going to figure out a solution to this problem for women. we know we can use campaign funds to buy yard signs or office furniture. why not to take care of our children while we work? for those of us in politics, you know how unpredictable that schedule is. it's hard for women. no shock, it's harder for women of color. so she pushes this fec ruling through. i remember her saying before she did it in 2018 before her two male candidates thought to do it before, so now it's available to all women. since 2018, 60% of the state candidates who have run are women. of that number, 32% are women of color. at the federal level, it's 56%

of all women. of the 56%, it's 50% women of color. so we have a lot more work to do, but it's an incredible organization. it's incredible that it's available to candidates and look forward to seeing more candidates and particularly women of color using it. >> absolutely. obviously we cover women on the campaign trail all the time and their events in the evening, morning, weekends. child care could make or break a decision to run, but we need moms in political office, don't we? >> we absolutely do. right now, less than 7% of the current congress is a mother of a child under the age of 18. when you add in fathers, parent representation in the house tops out at 24%. i would note that in this country 40% of all households have a child under the age of 18. you could argue congress is not as representative as it could be. we know from data that has looked at proposed legislation

that working congressional mothers are more likely to propose policies that address the concerns of parents and children than their non-parent counterparts. >> before we go, huma, let's talk about the upcoming 30/50 summit. this summit is less than six weeks away. of course, it brings together generations of women from all over the world in and around international women's day for a mentoring summit. we have actress meg ryan, susie ormond. today we have a very special speaker reveal. >> i know you are in particular very excited about our announcement today. we are thrilled that shania twain is going to be joining us at the summit. she is a five-time grammy winner

and one of the music industry's most renowned trailblazers. in fact, until today she remains the highest top selling country female pop artist of all time. for her to come share her story is going to be incredible. she's also just announced her third residency in vegas. she completed her last residency in september of 2022. it was sold out. she's had an interesting and fascinating personal journey. we're going to hear all about it in march. she's transcended barriers to be this global superstar. we cannot wait to see her in person in a few weeks. >> she's still the one. thank you both very much. for more details on the 30/50 summit head over to forbes.com

or knowyourvalue.com. we're into the fourth hour of "morning joe." 6:00 a.m. on the west coast, 9:00 a.m. on the east coast. nikki haley was back on the campaign trail in her home state of south carolina last night, sharpening her attacks on donald trump. this comes as she fends off calls by some republicans to exit the race. meanwhile, there are new red flags with donald trump's campaign coming out of the new hampshire primary. peter alexander has the latest. >> bring it, donald. >> reporter: nikki haley back home in south carolina brushing off that double-digit defeat in new hampshire and former president trump's personal attacks that followed. >> donald trump got out there and threw a temper tantrum. he was insulting. he was doing what he does. i know that's what he does when he's insecure. >> reporter: off the trail, mr. trump, who holds a commanding lead in south carolina, is still

seething about haley's refusal to exit the race, on social media insulting haley calling her bird brain and overnight warning anyone who contributes to her campaign will be permanently barred from the maga camp. >> i felt i should do this, because i find in life you can't let people get away with [ bleep ], okay? you can't. just can't do that. >> reporter: the pressure on haley is growing with more conservative republicans urging her to get out and not to draw out what they say would be a futile and bruising nomination fight. >> they are a little frustrated because we all know what's about to happen. there is no pathway. >> reporter: this week's primary also revealed some of mr. trump's biggest vulnerabilities, including his weaknesses with independents and moderate republicans, who he would need

to expand his appeal beyond his maga base. president biden has already set his sights on november. >> it's great to be home! >> reporter: looking to rev up the support of working class voters in key swing states like michigan, securing a coveted endorsement from one of the country's most powerful unions, the united auto workers months after becoming the first sitting president to stand with them on strike. >> on the picket line, donald trump went to a nonunion shop and attacked you. >> let's bring in former white house director of communications to president obama jennifer palmieri. she and claire mccaskill are host of the podcast "how to win in 2024." we have john meacham. i'm so amused when i hear people talking about the futility of the campaign where you have a

former governor who has a month to campaign in her own state. she raised a million dollars yesterday, small donors from 49 of 50 states. i'm wondering if the people that are saying this are trying to intimidate her. trump is talking about blackballing people. it's so stupid, especially in this case with a guy in the physical and mental state he's in and a guy that also has 91 counts against him to say this is futile. you want to know what was futile? trying to get lbj out of the race in 1968. that was futile. anything's possible in politics. >> anything's possible. i think one of the issues people are either aware of is every minute that nikki haley is in this race, she's a human rebuke to the maga takeover of the

republican party. she's this embodiment of a more normal, traditional path that the maga world doesn't want quite explicitly. they don't want the mccain, romney, bush party. that's what they say. but that's not every republican. it seems to me that every minute she's there, there's a contrast with what used to be and what yet still could be. i think that must be part of what's irritating the people who have saluted instead of thinking about what they're doing. >> go back to 1982, 1983, the disaster that ronald reagan was going through politically. he was dismissed. we all forget this. he was a one-term president.

he was out of it. he was old and addled. there was no way he was going to win. then in '84, morning in america came along. by the way, with economic numbers much worse than what joe biden is riding right now. this is amazing. breaking news, the economy grew 3.1%. >> andrew ross sorkin will be on. >> the economy grew at a 3.3% pace, this breaking news alert from the "washington post." you look at record low unemployment, you look at the jobs created. suddenly morning in america in 1984 looks a little cloudier compared to what joe biden has right now and why donald trump is saying he hopes the economy

crashes. >> yeah. if you get the republicans away from the group and talk to them, these enabling votes within the republican party, they'll admit, because it's true, that everyone one of them is richer today than they were a week ago and richer today than they were three years ago. it's just a fact for the invested class in america that the employment numbers are stronger across the spectrum. one of them said to me -- and this is not someone who is going to be in any danger of carrying an npr tote bag around, very conservative guy who last summer said, i don't think people understand that the legislation

that biden passed, the monies moving into the economy, the investments coming with the chips act and infrastructure, the economy is going to be hot and inflation will be down by the time this election unfolds. if you want to vote on your pocketbooken and you're going to be rational about it, the stock market does better under democrats. it drives republicans crazy always. they yell and they pound, but it's just the case. will those people vote for joe biden? this is where i get puzzled. i don't understand a partisan mind that won't allow you in a

democratic emergency to have to vote a party line or write in donald duck or something. why can't you vote for a constitutionalist incumbent president? why not? >> it's a really good question. this is not a battle between a republican and a democrat now. this is a battle for somebody who supports american democracy and somebody who openly supports illiberal leadership like orban. i would love an npr tote bag. the people at the men's grill, i'm not one of those. let's just admit it the peter malar sleeveless vests, those the guys in the men's grill that are saying this.

also, i'm going to go full harold ford jr. here. >> three points? >> no. just everybody's right. the "washington post" is right by saying 3.1%. that's for the year. 3.3% for this quarter. actually, the economy continuing to heat up. are you tired yet? >> i'm always tired. are you tired yet? >> not yet. former donald trump white house press secretary kaylee mcenany points out several red flags for her boss that she saw exposed from tuesday's new hampshire primary results. >> this is a fairly good night for joe biden. when you look at our voter analysis, only 10% said i would not vote for joe biden if he's the nominee. he won a plurality of voters. the divides in the democrat party perhaps aren't as stark as one would think. when you look at the republican

party, 7 in 10 nikki haley voters said i would not vote for trump. this is a des moines register poll where 43% said, no, i would not vote for trump. if i focus on uniting the party and winning the independents, which nikki haley won 55-39%. >> trump's threat on social media that he didn't need any advice from, quote, that rino, actually, donald, you actually do need that advice, because if you had taken that advice in 2020, you would have won most likely. if you took that advice starting at the beginning of this campaign, you'd be in much better shape. you look at the numbers and now it's republican bedwetters because they have a reason.

it's because you look at the numbers and only 14% of republicans even bothered to vote in iowa. that's an extraordinarily low turnout. then you look at new hampshire and just complete rejection by about 40% of the republicans there. >> it is the problem. trump just has lost his mind in the last couple of days about mcenany and haley. what haley said about trump on stage tuesday night, she said no more chaos, no more negativity. that was it. he lost his mind. he didn't like her sort of declaring victory when she didn't actually win, which is ironic. what probably got under his sin is in the two states where voters have voted in 2024,

republicans have expressed concerns about voting for him if he's convicted and also saying 25% in iowa of the republican caucus goers said they would not vote for him in the general election. 40% of them said they would vote for joe biden. 40% of people in the new hampshire primary said they would not vote for him if he was convicted. where there have been contests and voters have really had to consider these issues, they have a lot of concerns about him. new hampshire looks a lot like the affluent suburbs of your favorite states, joe, georgia, pennsylvania, arizona, you know, those places that are going to matter so much in the general election. 67% want to protect abortion rights. 40% won't support him if he's convicted. it shows a lot of weaknesses.

having a republican make these arguments against trump is really impactful for the country to hear. also we're just learning so much about what voters are open to biden that we didn't necessarily expect and maybe more so than even in 2020. >> you're seeing pennsylvania as a leading indicator. you're seeing polls starting to break not just joe biden's way but also fetterman's numbers going way up in pennsylvania. things seem to be starting to turn in pennsylvania, which looks like biden's strongest swing state right now. he's okay in wisconsin. he'll look good in wisconsin by the end. it will be tight, but i think he's going to win there. it comes down to michigan. he's got a lot of work ahead of him, but that's also a state that i'm very confident that the uaw endorsement is going to cut

through. those union endorsements don't usually cut through the noise. the one yesterday actually did. >> it did, because joe biden just a couple of months ago was on the picket line with those workers when they won new rights and donald trump was down in nonunion shops taking the other side in that argument. in the kaylee mcenany story donald trump is running out of people to excommunicate from maga world. if kaylee mcenany is a rino, then you're down to like rudy and mr. pillow at this point. the world is getting very small for donald trump. let's go back to those economic numbers with andrew ross sorkin. this report just dropping, showing 3.3% growth in the fourth quarter. wall street was projecting something like 2%, so far

exceeding expectations here. >> this is a goldilocks situation. i was talking to richard fisher. he said this economy is an a-plus economy. it was one of the sound bites you'd expect the biden administration to run ads on. to the degree there was an expectation that things would get softer throughout the year and if it did, rates would have to come down. softer is not good. so in a way this is really actually just about as good as it could possibly get. you're watching the dow up on the back of this news, the stock market across the board up on this back of this news. if gdp is growing at this kind of rate, it's going to be hard to derail it by the end of this year. i think a lot of people had been

worried that things could get softer come summer or fall. it's still possible, but i think it becomes less of an issue at the moment. >> no victory laps from the white house, but certainly sighs of relief. you mentioned the interest rate cuts that could be coming. do you have a timeline as to when that may occur? >> it's funny, because i was texting with a number of economists in the past half hour. everybody is now revising their numbers. there had been expectation that a rate cut could come as early as march. that was on the assumption that things would get softer. based on today's number, i think you're going to see wall street have to push that back. the question is how far. i think you're starting to see an evolution in terms of how people are thinking about it.

i think you'll see a number of reports over the next several days revising how they're thinking about what the fed is going to do next. >> andrew ross sorkin, thank you so much. a-plus economy. we're hearing that from former fed chairman. we're also hearing from conservative writers that the u.s. economy was the winner of the year. you look at the competition between the united states' economy and china's economy, we're going in two different directions. all these whiners and trumpists constantly berating america, they couldn't be more wrong. our economy, our military is stronger than ever. the only thing that may be pulling americans down on how

they feel about america are these trumpists going around bad-mouthing the usa all the time. they're wrong. our economy is stronger than any of our allies'. hell, texas' economy is bigger than russia's. california's economy is bigger than every other country's in the world except for three. california's economy is bigger than india's economy. i mean, the stories to tell about how strong america is in 2024 are just right there. yet, all trump wants to do is trash the united states of america. >> it's a question between a scripted reality show that trump is unfurling once again, where there's a dark, carnage-filled

land and he is going to come and save it. that's his world view. then you have the reality. so the question for american voters and that very narrow slice we were just talking about in those seven or eight states in a polarized era will be will we accept reality or continue to watch this reality show. the only other thing i'd offer is, i've come to think that to some extent what this election is about on the trump side is the difference between the words but and therefore. if you talk to folks, you hear that he's crazy but i'm going to vote for him, meaning trump. there's that. there's also the he's crazy, therefore, i just can't do it this time. in that tension and where that gets resolved is probably the outcome of the election. if you go back a year, the fears

of recession, the fears of not a soft landing, et cetera, were there. american culture is particularly poor at assessing how it got something wrong in the past. if you look at the conversation a year ago and look at the reality today, you have a different world. >> a much brighter, better world, better economy than anybody expected. >> jon meacham, thank you very much for coming on this morning. so after nearly a decade, jon stewart is retaking the reins of "the daily show" on comedy central. he will host on mondays. the remaining episodes will be hosted by a rotating line-up of the show's team.

stewart helmed the show from 1999 to 2015. he will make his return on february 12th. willie, what do you think? >> i think it's fascinating. remember, he left "the daily show" right before this trump era started. so he did have a show on apple tv and has been very active in causes on capitol hill. it's one night a week through the election. so i think a lot of fans are really excited to have his voice back in the conversation at this crucial moment. yesterday i was sitting down with the great john oliver to interview him for "sunday today." we were at a liverpool bar here in new york city. we were sitting at this bar. as the interview finished, the news came across that his old friend and colleague at "the

daily show" jon stewart was returning. he didn't know anything about it. here's that exchange. >> so we've just got news that jon stewart is going to return to "the daily show" to do mondays through the election. >> that was just handed to us on the phone. i presume it's accurate. >> yes. what do you think? >> it's a surprise, yeah. that is a show that needs a host. he certainly is a very, very good one. yeah, it will be exciting to see what he does. i do think after 2025 they should make him permanent host. >> it feels that way. >> it's going to be very exciting to see jon in an election year as well. that is watchable. >> back in for another bite at the apple. >> that's right. jordan's back. >> jordan's back, says john oliver. we totally surprised him with that news.

obviously jon hosted "the daily show" and knows what it's like to sit in that chair. >> i love the liverpool understatement. yeah, that would be watchable. at the end, once it hits him that jon stewart is back in an election year and a trump election year with democracy on the line, suddenly he goes, okay, jordan's returning. >> we're excited. >> he's worried about the injury to salah, but we can talk think about later. >> it's going to be three or four weeks. there was a little bit of drama between liverpool and salah. they're leaning over backwards to say, hey, you do what you want to do. if you want to stay home, if you want to come back, you can do that. we're top of the table right now. we've got a good team through

and through. i don't like it, but i think he's going to be okay. jack scarborough, when he finds out you have john oliver on sunday morning, let me tell you something, look out. we're going to make some strudle and hot piping tea. it's going to be amazing. >> can we never get john oliver and joe scarborough in a bar together talking about soccer? can we make that on our not to do list? >> i think it would be electric. i'll give you the name of the bar and you can join him for a match on a saturday morning. >> i love it. coming up, republican infighting on capitol hill is creating uncertainty over the senate's proposed border deal. it's a good deal. meanwhile, mitch mcconnell

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you may know adam schiff's work to protect the rule of law, or to build affordable housing, or write california's patients bill of rights. but i know adam through the big brother program. we've been brothers since i was seven. he stood by my side as i graduated from yale, and i stood by his side when he married eve, the love of his life. i'm a little biased, but take it from adam's little brother. he'll make us all proud

as california senator. i'm adam schiff and i approve this message.

so negotiating with chuck schumer on securing the border is like putting hanibal lechter in charge of a go vegan campaign. he might dine on your liver, but it's not going to remotely do what the objective is. >> willie geist, if we could get sarah mclaughlin playing "into the arms of an angel." an ivy league education is a terrible thing to waste. again, the bad acting, right? i think they have to say when

you graduate, if you're planning to be a pro-trump faux populist you need to get a minor at least in acting. when you look at ivy league boys like ted cruz, who went to harvard -- who's the little guy? >> the power fist guy with the little hands? >> josh hawley. you know, a breeze could break that arm just right off, just a breeze. you have all those other ivy league guys. isn't jd vance one of those guys? he's a yale boy. glenn youngkin, tom cotton,

desantis. now, john kennedy is my favorite, because after he went to the ivy league, he went to oxford. when he came back, he was like madonna, talking like i am going to vote in this eleion for john kerry. >> and get a latte. >> now, he's like talking about frying up squirrels for dinner and playing populist. >> okay. >> i just got to say these ivy league boys playing populist, it's just laughable, willie. come on, man. >> senator kennedy just endorsed donald trump this morning. >> of course he did. >> wonderful. >> ted cruz, the guys who wear the cowboy boots with their suits and they want to project

like a texas cowboy image, i don't think john wayne ever did what the big man told him to do at every turn, to go out and talk tough and use course language. i don't know at which eating club at princet cruz learned to talk tough. he's not good at it. >> trump's an ivy league boy too. >> he incessantly talks about wharton. can we move on? >> they didn't me even walk onto the campus. they would cuff me, put a bag over my head and go, boy, go back to your southern state school. so growing up, you know, i think i would have like to have gone to one of them eating clubs. but after seeing what these

schools are producing, i'm really lucky. i dodged a bullet there. i'm really lucky i went to alabama. i know you're very glad you went also to a working class school like vandy. >> vandy, nashville, tennessee. roll tide, first of all. i think mika speaks for a nation when she says, can we move on, please? >> yes. >> by the way, did you see the tweet? big al has entered the transfer portal. >> who has? >> our mascot. big al. >> oh yeah, the elephant. >> republican senator ted cruz of texas was criticizing the border security package that he hasn't even read yet. >> it happens. >> we knew that a large number of house republicans are against any deal because they don't want biden to look good. now nbc news is learning a significant number of senate republicans are also all of a

sudden not interested in finding a compromise when it comes to immigration. >> donald trump has told them don't pass the toughest border security bill ever. again, that's according to republican conservatives, you know, from oklahoma. that's john thune also. >> mitch mcconnell at one point. >> punch bowl news is also reporting that mitch mcconnell doesn't want to take the immigration issue away from former president trump's presidential campaign, so let that fentanyl flow. he reportedly told republicans, quote, we don't want to do anything to undermine him. we're in a quandary. >> they're going to allow fentanyl to flow across the border over the next year and allow illegal immigrants to flow over the border for the next year, when they all were saying a week ago before donald trump

stepped in, the best border security bill ever. now they're saying they're going to kill it. trump is saying i want to economy to crash too. >> symone sanders townsend joins us. what changed? >> mitch mcconnell in this private meeting said the quiet part out loud to republicans in the senate, that the politics have changed because donald trump coming out of new hampshire, in their eyes, is basically the nominee of the party. never mind that he has not reached the required number of delegates yet. never never mind nikki haley is still in the race and she sees a path. this is devastating. i was hearing about this last night and early this morning. i was shocked. i'm shocked for two reasons, y'all. first and foremost, all republicans have talked about and tried to hammer biden and vice president harris on from the time this administration started was, in fact, the border. i worked there when there was

that is all why haven't you gone to the border? the vice president then went to the border. they're still asking when is the president going to the border. now they have the opportunity to get a bipartisan bill passed into law that would really do something about the crisis at the border. this bill would provide more customs and border patrol agents. it would provide more judges to help with adjudication. the funding, the infrastructure at the united states southern border with mexico, the infrastructure, badly needed infrastructure. there's work going on with the root causes of migration, working with our partners in mexico and the new president in guatemala. i don't understand. it seems to me that they don't really want to fix the border crisis. they want to have a political issue they can run on and talk about, but they don't want to find solutions. the second reason i'm shocked is

i'm thinking about the resilience of the people of ukraine, who have fought day in and day out. and now it seems as though america, because of republicans in the united states congress, are going to leave them by the wayside. devastating. >> it is shocking that right now ukrainians are dying every day because of house republicans. it's shocking that israel is not getting the funding it needs. it's shocking that fentanyl is going to keep flooding over the border and illegal immigrants are going to keep flooding over the border, because suddenly a bill that james langford and john thune and real conservative republicans are saying this is the best deal we will ever have. if i were a democratic senator, if you were a democratic house member, i would go to the border and i would sit there and i would talk to the press and i would talk about what republicans are killing on

capitol hill and what they're allowing to flow over the border over the next year. >> ukraine literally running out of ammunition right now because of inaction in the united states congress. certainly republicans think this is a good bet for them. they think the border is going to be a winning election issue. i think some democrats think they can try to spin that in the months ahead if indeed this deal falls through. let's take a moment to weigh in on mitch mcconnell, who occasionally stands up to donald trump, but once more chooses power, chooses the quest for power and will not defy donald trump, does not want to take an election issue away from trump or his own efforts to have a republican senate majority. >> he's so wily, for a moment i thought did he want that quote to get out there so he can blame trump so it's clear the problem here is that trump won't solve the border. i thought, no, i'm overthinking

it. he is just that callous. the democrats should take the package and put it on the floor and make them vote against it. leader jeffreys on the house side has to figure out a way to make republicans vote against it. they will say that the package wasn't tough enough and that's why they voted against it, but the white house and the democrats need to do what they can to show the public they have exhausted all options for controlling the border. then the president should go out and say the following facts which are true, there are more border agents at the border than there have ever been. the rate of deportations is up under biden. it is higher than it was under trump. they have asked for more border funding than any president has ever done, and the congress will

not deliver. they're backing a deal that would have helped stem this fentanyl and more migrants coming from the border, and the republicans stopped it, because they want chaos, the same chaos that was there when trump was president. it is the fundamental issue for trump supporters, immigration. so i don't think democrats are going to win on this issue, but americans have a legitimate concern about what's happening. they have a good story to tell now that everything is breaking down on the hill. >> republican senators have said to the house, take this deal, it's as good as we're going to get. turning now to the new book from peabody's antonia hilton about segregation. >> in march of 1911 officials

marched 12 black men into the heart of a ford in anne arundel county, maryland, to pour cement and harvest tobacco and build an asylum. then they were among its first patients. >> thousands of black patients came through that hospital and many died there. the new book is titled "madness, race and insanity in the jim crow asylum." congratulations on this book. >> thank you. >> it is at once extraordinary and gut wrenching and appalling to read through. tell us more about how this came to be in the first place, those people who were marched into the woods in 1911 to build their own asylum. >> well, at the time the jim crow system really impacted everything, even hospitals. we think of water fountains and

schools, but mental health care took. the state of maryland decided black patients were the only patients who would have to build themselves a therapeutic facility before they could benefit from it. they build it from the ground up and then become the patients. at its height there were 2700 patients and hundreds of employees living there. in the early years, it was all black patients, all white staff. it's not until the '50s and '60s that you see more change as more blacks start to work there and change the culture and health care outcomes. this story takes you from 1911 up to until present day. i think people don't know how close this history is. >> part of the power of this book is it is the story of america along the way too, which is to say there was this idea

out there after emancipation that these black men and women had gone mad in some way and needed to be institutionalized. >> doctors wrote about this stuff openly. they would debate in medical journals and talk about it at conferences, this idea that emancipation had been a mistake and black people couldn't handle the responsibility of being free and dealing with everyday life. that's what made them treat these institutions very differently than other hospitals around the state of maryland. even as attitudes change, that initial founding and all of the decisions they make because of those beliefs at the outset, they continue to impact the hospital all the way until 2004. it's underfunded continually even as people come and do everything they can to save patient lives. they have less resources and support from the government because of some of the decisions

made in the earliest days. >> congratulations. i'm so excited about this book. it couldn't come at a better time. you talk about how the hospital closed in 2004. just recently the hospital has been reimagined and reopened in maryland. it's not lost on me that it's happening under the leadership of a black governor, the only black governor in the country, wes moore. talk about it. i know you got a tour of the facility. >> we did. nbc got the exclusive tour of the entire property just a few days ago. this is really unlike any other public historical project. anne arundel county is going to turn that land from this sad chapter from the dilapidated buildings into a massive memorial park that people from all over the state and outside

the state will be able to come and enjoy. there will be mental health treatment spaces, biking paths, public gardens. the entire idea is to finally have a true space of healing and to not shy away from but to recognize what truly happened there. they're going to have storyboards and a small museum. the park and the green side of this should be available relatively soon. there's immense excitement on the ground there in maryland. people have questions about what this could mean for maryland. they're taking people's feedback. they want to know what it could look like and represent to you. >> let's look back one more time into the past. such an extraordinary racist

setup, but tell us about the day-to-day horrors patients had to experience. >> for years patients were left in these overcrowded wards. they were left to sleep on straw. there was little in the way of actual therapy. the institution was notorious for staff-on-patient violence. in the '50s and '60s you start to see that shift because some of the first black women arrive and start to stop white colleagues from doing that to the patients. they start to bring in clothing and shoes for patients who had been unclothed for years. they start to investigate their mistreatment and call their family members, very simple acts of kindness. they started getting those patients reconnected with loved ones so they could get out. people were there for 20, 30, 40 years in some cases. this is a very recent history.

>> you've done such a great job to shine a light on the story most americans don't know anything about, which tells the difficult history of the country through this story. the book is titled, "madness, race and insanity in a jim crow asylum." next, two of today's biggest broadway stars join us to discuss their new musical "days of wine and roses," a powerful story of a couple undone by addiction. "morning joe" is coming right back. adctdiion. "morning joe" is coming right back

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♪♪ ♪ do do do do ♪ ♪ who needs dry land, who wants wet sand ♪ ♪ all i want is you ♪ >> and that is the beginning of a relationship between two lovers and alcoholism, frankly, kelley o'hara and brian darcy james star in "days of wine and roses" now in a limited 16-week engagement at studio 64 here in new york. the show about a couple struggling with addiction is based on the 1958 teleplay by j.p. miller which later became a classic movie featuring jack lemon. and kelley o'hara and brian darcy james who you saw dancing with the drinks there. >> dancing and drinking, yes. >> thanks for having us. >> congratulations on this play. 1958 teleplay and something i understand the two of you have been working on or thinking

about at least for 20 years or so. what is it about this story that so fascinated you and made you want to pursue it? >> we had just done a show together in a similar era. i wanted to work with him again, the subject matter also was very appealing to me as a young actor, wanted to sort of stretch my, you know, myself a little bit. it's sort of our version of who's afraid of virginia wolf with music, you know. it just seemed something challenging for actors to do and it's proved right. it's been very satisfying. >> we don't want to give too much away. tell us about these two characters here. what were we watching there in that scene? >> it's a love story really. it's about two people who fall madly in love instantly but then they have this added element of addiction, which really wreaks havoc on their relationship for them as individuals and as a couple. they have to figure out how they're going to deal with this. and of course in the time that this play is set, the vocabulary and vernacular of addiction is still kind of coming into focus,

and there's not really as much of an idea of how to discuss it and deal with it as we do now. so they're just trying to -- they're kind of in uncharted waters really about how to deal with their problems, which are huge. but at the end of the day, it's two people, i think, who are in love with each other trying to get back to each other constantly. >> kelly, on that, the fact that this is -- you're performing this in a different time with different vvocabulary, addictio is still an ever present struggle for so many people. how do you update that piece of it? >> if you create two human characters no matter the time, your hope is that a person comes into that room and sees themselves or sees someone they love inside that story and identifies. you know, i know personally this pandemic was an amazingly powerful time in the world of addiction. i lost a couple of friends. i had many friends get sober. you know, it's a subject matter that we started to talk about

more deeply again i think at that time and so it seems very timely now to do this piece. we've seen audience members come and have the most visceral reactions. you know, you'll have someone thanking you saying eight years sober. you'll have someone talking about a family member. you'll have someone sort of offended and needing to leave, and that's okay. that's what you do with art, you try to make sense of things, and it makes me feel very purposeful to work on something like that that touches i think everybody has a connection. >> that's it. the sad reality is there's no one who has not been touched by this in some way. brian, you guys started with this on off broadway, it was off broadway first, very popular. what's it like to bring it to broadway to these big audiences at studio 54? >> it's thrilling. it's a bigger space. we were wondering how that would translate in terms of the intimacy of a smaller house, and now we're doing it at studio 64 for 16 weeks. we're getting audiences that are just as engaged and just as focused on this very kind of

intimate story of two people traveling these troubled roads, but it's been really, really exciting. of course studio 54 has its own kind of mystique and aura about it. >> you think? >> in terms of maybe some substances were used there. i don't know. i wasn't there. i'm very young. >> yes, yes. >> so, no, but it is really, really exciting to be there, and especially to be doing it on broadway, a piece like this, which is, i think, challenging and asks a lot of not only the people that are in it but the people that are coming to see it, and so that combination, i think, is thrilling to have space for that on a broadway stage. >> congratulations. it is getting great reviews. people are loving it. you can see "days of wine and roses" now until april 28th at studio 54 in new york city. and kelly, you and i are bonded for life because we finished seconds apart from each other at the new york city marathon. >> yes, we did, willie. >> we it it. kelly o'hao'hara, brian darcy j. >> joe and mika how about some

final thoughts for the morning. >> first of all, brian and i are also kind of joined together forever because we were sitting there watching you guys having a pbr while you crossed the finish line and we were so proud of you. >> all right. >> he's a runner too. >> and a hamburger, exactly. so final thoughts, first of all, this looks incredible, mika. >> yeah, it does. >> shania twain, that's huge. >> she's going to be at the 3050 summer. we're going to talk more about that on morning mika and why nikki haley is in a unique position against donald trump right now. we'll talk about that. >> she really is. final thoughts. >> we see former president trump bouncing between campaign and courtroom, just arrived in new york city for the defamation trial. undoubtedly he'll try and use this to rally supporters. >> willie, final thoughts. >> nikki haley has a chance here. she changed her tact yesterday. she led with her criticism of

donald trump instead of baring it late in her speech. we'll see if it makes a difference in her home state. >> i totally agree. all these people saying it's over, that's ridiculous. nikki haley has done what every republican has wanted to do with donald trump since 2016. she's got him in a one-on-one matchup. he hates it is and the trump establishment hates it. she needs to charge ahead and do what she always does in south carolina, win. >> from alex, you know what is it over? >> what? >> this show. >> i wanted to keep going. >> that does it for us this morning, ana cabrera picks up the coverage in 90 seconds. icks the coverage in 90 seconds so every day, you can say, ♪ youuu did it! ♪ with centrum silver. that first time you take a step back. i made that. with your very own online store. i sold that. and you can manage it all in one place. i built this. and it was easy, with a partner that puts you first. godaddy. here's why you should switch fo to duckduckgo on all your devie duckduckgo comes with a built-n engine like google, but it's pi

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