here's why you should switch fo to duckduckgo on all your devie duckduckgo comes with a built-n engine like google, but it's pi and doesn't spy on your searchs and duckduckgo lets you browse like chrome, but it blocks cooi and creepy ads that follow youa from google and other companie. and there's no catch. it's fre. we make money from ads, but they don't follow you aroud join the millions of people taking back their privacy by downloading duckduckgo on all your devices today. good to be with you, i'm katy tur. it only took one minute for donald trump to break judge kaplan's rules on what he could and couldn't say on the stand for the e. jean carroll that

he's testifying for for the first time. he could not say, for instance, that he never assaulted e. jean carroll when another court of law established that he did. you stand by it, trump, 100% yes, habba, do you deny the allegations. >> trump, i consider it a false accusation, he said. judge kaplan, that answer is stricken from the record. habba, did you ever instruct anyone to hurt ms. carroll. trump, i just wanted to defend myself, my family, and frankly, the presidency. joining us now, msnbc legal analyst, she was inside that courtroom, lisa rubin. nbc news correspondent vaughn hillyard, and criminal defense attorney and msnbc legal analyst, danny cevallos. that was the defense asking donald trump all of three questions, one of which was

stricken. it then went to the prosecution. tell me what happened then. >> reporter: katy, first of all, those three questions, two of the answers were partially stricken. i heard yeses and noes to those questions before donald trump attempted to give a narrative. as you noted, judge kaplan cut him off, instructed jury to get the answers out of his mind and struck them from the record. robbie kaplan cross examined donald trump, and she really only got in one question that was permitted and the question she asked him was is this the first trial you have attended involving you and e. jean carroll, the answer was yes. but what she wanted to explore and really drive home to the jury was you, donald trump, had an opportunity to attend that first trial where the issues of whether you sexually assaulted e. jean carroll or defamed her in the first instance were litigated and you chose not to attend.

that's the implication she wanted the jurors to draw. alina habba got up and did her redistrict, a single question, did you have counsel in that prior trial. the answer was yes. did you listen to the advice of your counsel. the objection to that was sustained. again, alina habba trying to imply to the jurors, trump staying away from the prior trial, his not taking the stand was, you know, they want the jurors to think bad advice of the prior counsel, joe tacopina, gave an interview to the reverend al sharpton over the weekend, and he said there were reasons he left trump's defense team. he wouldn't disclose them, he said he had a compass and had to follow it. >> a lot of that sound like legal jargon. what was accomplished today in the courtroom with donald trump on the stand. >> reporter: the most important thing that was accomplished with donald trump on the stand was not having donald trump on the

stand. the most important thing accomplished out of donald trump's mouth when e. jean carroll's lawyer played a clip prosecute deposition, and his october 2022 deposition and this case, and watching donald trump watch donald trump was itself a very weird and meta moment but he was stoic, as he watched the plaintiff's counsel play a bunch of his prior testimony that i think will be damming for him, particularly when the jury comes to consider punitive damages in this case. why? because in the new york attorney general's case, he talked about his brand value, his net worth, the $400 million plus of cash he has on hand. he said that overall, he is worth billions and billions of dollars. when a jury comes together to consider punitive damages, one of the permissible factors as danny well knows is how do you determine what is actually a

punishment for the particular defendant in this case. a punishment for you or me or danny or vaughn, for example, is not necessarily what would be a punishment for a self-proclaimed billionaire. that testimony, i thought the jury was riveted and watching, they played a series of clips from donald trump's testimony. in this case, in october of '22, showing the picture where he mistook e. jean carroll for his second wife, marla maples. you know the impact of that as well as i do. >> let's play that tape. >> black and white photograph that we've marked as djt 23. >> i don't know the woman. let's see, i don't know who -- that's marla. >> you're saying marla's in this photo. >> that's marla, yes. that's my wife. >> which woman are you pointing to. >> the person you just pointed to was e. jean carroll.

>> this is donald trump mixing up e. jean carroll with his former wife, marla maples. that was played for the jury. i interrupted you, but go on, when you're talking about what the jury will be considering and that could happen as soon as tomorrow, when they're talking about damages here because, again, it's already been established that he assaulted e. jean carroll, another court did that. that's why he can't deny it. when they are considering damages, are you implying that they could go into the hundreds of millions of dollars here? >> reporter: yes and no. punitive damages have to be a reasonable reflection of compensatory damages. the kinds of damages that are meant to actually compensate a victim or a plaintiff for their injuries, and here i think e. jean carroll's lawyers will tell the jury that she had two types of injuries, one was the injury to her reputation. they put an expert on the stand last week to testify to the damage to her professional reputation, estimating that it

would cost somewhere between 7 and $12 million to mount a reputation, restoration campaign for e. jean carroll. there's a second measure of the compensatory damages. that was the damage emotionally, and that was the point of making e. jean carroll testify about the death threats she has received. the threats on twitter saying you should be raped, you should be killed. there should be punishments for people like you. i think they're going to ask the jury t award tens of millions of dollars andhose kinds of damages too. and then you get to punitive damages, and those are the kinds of damages that have nothing to do with e. jean carroll and her injuries, but in the words of one of her lawyers, what will it take to make donald trump stop. how do you punish him as opposed to compensate her. there's supreme court case law that says those kinds of damages have to bear a reasonable relationship to the first kinds of damage. could they be four times the

compensation, sure. can they be ten times, probably not. i think what we'll see is e. jean carroll's trying to bolster the compensation measure of damages in order to also convince the jury that a punitive damages award and the tens of millions of dollars is also worth their while for a total verdict that exceeds $100 million. if i'm a betting person, that's what i think they're trying to get here. >> when you watch the joorts, and -- jurors, and watch the reaction, can you tell me what that was like, what you were able to glean if anything, especially when donald trump's defense attorneys brought in carol martin, and tried to get her to say that e. jean carroll was enjoying the attention. from the reading of the transcript, it seemed like she kind of admitted that she was? >> reporter: carol martin will admit she said the things she

said. she also acknowledged that in texts she could be a little bit hyperbolic, and unlike e. jean carroll, she was dealing with her own fear of what could happen to her and her family. carol martin's grown daughter was concerned folks were going to come after them. she testified about her perception that the climate in the country was changing in a way that could be dangerous, not only for e. jean but people associated with e. jean. i thought she did a nice job. at the time i thought she was attention seeking. i didn't understand how invested she was in this case. do i sitting here today now believe that e. jean carroll is a narcissistic fame grubber, yo, i think she and i deal with things differently, and when she told me she wasn't concerned for her security, that's a thing she does. saying that's what jeannie does.

she's an optimist, can she was trying to assure my daughter and me as long time close family friend of 30 plus years that he would not be in danger. >> this trial, this case is very much up your alley. what was your reading of what happened today. >> carol martin was interesting. trump was the marquee event. the situation that every one of us have. we have a family member or friend that we dearly love. we talk to them and the first thing we do after we talk is get on the phone, and text our other friend, susan is off her rocker. i think the jury probably reck -- recognized that. the big event was donald trump testifying. we knew it was going to be short for a couple reasons. number one, the judge has

seriously limited area of testimony. while this case about damages to e. jean carroll, punitive damages really aren't about a plaintiff at all. they're about the defendant. they're about his hatred and ill will, and they're also about how much money he has. >> and aren't they about trying to stop the person from continuing to do the behavior? i mean, he's already shown that he's been found guilty. civilly for the assault. he's been found guilty of defamation, and yet he's still going out and defaming her, as late as yesterday evening and again on the stand today saying this never happened. >> punitive damages are literally a derivative of the word punish, they're designed to punish donald trump. some version in closing, it will be like this. what dollar amount would be appropriate to prevent donald trump from doing this again in the future. it wouldn't be a couple of million dollars. he can pay that. it's got to be a large number. and lisa is exactly right. ordinarily, a rule of thumb, in

single digit multiplies of the compensatory damages you have punitive damages being upheld. that's the kind of thing that wouldn't be up held. >> judge kaplan might go and say, this is too high or an appellate court. >> exactly. you don't want $100 million verdict because that's more likely to get overturned on appeal than say a 10 million, $20 million verdict. the problem with defamation is that they're amorphous. they're hard to put into a solid number. if you have a real injury lirk a broken bone, you can put medical record on the board, this is the cost of therapy over a lifetime. this person will always have a limp, what is the dollar amount of therapy for the next 25 years or the lost wages. those are real numbers you can put up. with defamation, it's all over the place. so too with punitive damages. this is a damages award that

could be anywhere. every juror reads the damages to defamation differently. could it be 10 million? yes, but it could be virtually anything. >> how does a jury need to decide here, is it unanimous, a majority? and i know this was stricken from the record, but when donald trump gets on the sand and says this never happened, are you telling me the jurors would be able to take that out of their brain and put it aside. >> you can strike testimony but it's often said you can't unring that bell. and sometimes they'll ask a question that they know likely to be objected to but even the question alone out there is something that the jury can hear. and donald trump knows this. he knows he can push the limits. i'm sure there have been no end of former federal prosecutors in

this room, when it comes to federal judges, you don't mess around. we're seeing for the first time a high profile defendant, a sophisticated d. who should know better daring to challenge a federal judge. >> he does know better. he knows what he's doing. does he care. >> there's two options, either he doesn't though and nobody has told him about the punitive damages that could come from this or the second option is he doesn't care, and he feels he has the money in the account, and at this point in time, he's focused on becoming president of the united states. alina habba, the day she testified, i asked her after the judge told donald trump to stop going off on tangents and to keep on message because he was drawing negative inferences from it, i asked during the lunch break she instructed her client, donald trump, to stick to message and not go off, and she told me that it was not her job, she would not sign on with a

client and tell them whatnot to say. it was up to him to tell his story. what have we seen over two months, donald trump in this e. jean carroll case continued to not only on social media attack e. jean carroll. deny that he sexually abused her, deny that he knows her. in manchester, new hampshire, on the campaign stage said she fabricated the story. clearly donald trump doesn't care about the damages. >> who will hire alina habba in the future. >> a lot of lawyers think any publicity is good publicity. she'll have no end of clients. >> the way she has been conducting herself, reprimanded, the sanctions put on her. >> it has not been a positive overall assessment, but consider this. maybe alina habba has a

different mission. it's a damages hearing. maybe she's speaking to a different audience than this jury and other lawyers watching in the new york southern district community. >> how does this play when donald trump says these things at the rally? >> he doesn't run from it. he does whatever it takes to make it a good line for himself politically. i can't tell you the number of folks i talked to. as a journalist, i have a hard time asking random folks waiting in line to sea donald trump, how they feel knowing the man they are about to cheer for sexually abused a woman, and they completely deny that reality, again, it's another extension of a witch hunt. if you try to go to the facts, it was a jury of their pierce. it was a new york jury, of course they're out to get him. it doesn't matter the details. pr donald trump, he provides the

talking points, the defense gl i went to a rally in florida in 2016, right after the access hollywood tape came out and there was a protester had a stereo, and they were playing the tape, you heard and over, grab them by the, and i asked people walking in, including an older woman, and not a single one of them cared. >> because they're reading his social media posts. >> everyone does it. it's just an extension of what we have been seeing since 2016. >> because they bike him so much. the lincoln project senior add visor and author of "it's all alive," thank you for being here. he obviously needs them in the next election but they're not the ones who are going to win it for him.

independents, moderates, republicans like you who are turned off by president biden, there's also a lot of polling that shows that if donald trump were convicted of a crime, 54%, 42% say he would not be fit to be president. iowa, 31% say he would not be fit to be president. if you were trump's people would you care about those numbers? >> yeah, i'm going to go on a limb and say if i had a client convicted of a felony, i think it's a bad thing. this is a terrible hole the republican party has dug itself in, and it's all coming due. i have to take what's happening in new york in context. he's up there on election night. after a win in new hampshire, he attacks nikki haley's dress. i mean, think about this.

it's like a "saturday night live" sketch. can you check the box in every way to offend women and he's up there claiming credit for overturning roe v. wade. across the republican party, for people on the ballot with donald trump who needs a win. this 19th amendment is a troubling reality they face. need to win win in numbers, suburban women, college educated women. this is a disaster for the party. >> let me push on these exit poll numbers that were 31 and 42% say if a president were convicted of a crime, they wouldn't consider them fit to be president. do you think these people know it doesn't disqualify you if you're convicted. you can be in jail and still be president of the united states. >> lyndon la ruche, i think, ran from jail. the difficulty is unimaginable.

i think people have trouble wrapping their heads around the reality of a president convicted of a felony. i think as it emerges, i think one of the reasons you're seeing these interesting numbers come out of states. there's two polls new hampshire and pennsylvania. they showed biden's job approval at 38. biden was winning by nine points, and i think you're going it continue to see that split, where it becomes increasingly a referendum on drumplt there's -- donald trump. there's not many aspects of life that think it's a good thing to be convicted of a felony or be on trial. when you see the numbers out of exit polls, you're looking at two different worlds, a world that's a hard core for trump. almost the threshold avenue, gate to admission is to think

that joe biden is not a legally elected president. and then you have this other world that nikki haley is functioning in. the problem is there's more republicans on the other side. she's never going to win the republican primary in the position she's in now. ultimately, politics is always about addiction, subtraction there's a shrinking base of support for donald trump that's going to become a real reality as the race goes forward. >> hi a woman on yesterday, a black woman from chicago, she's democrat, who now says she's going to vote republican, vote for donald trump if he's the nominee because of immigration. she thinks the democrats are taking care of migrants, she's not alone. i have heard that from others. is it a subtraction issue or is president biden pushing democratic voters with these

policies or the policies per sooeched -- perceived to be his fault by some voters. >> republicans do a better job messaging to republicans than democrats. that's both true but sort of false because it's easier to message to a homogeneous unit. if everybody likes the same kind of music, it's easier toot that. it's ultimately the party's greatest strength. mississippi much more a party that looks like america. when i read stories about disaffected african americans. what does that really mean? donald trump got 8% of the african-american vote in 2020. when goldwater ran, he got 7%. you've gone up one point every 56 years. that's going to take a while. if you're running the biden

campaign, and they say are you worried about this, the answer should be yes, of course. you should be worried about everything. would you be rather where biden is or where trump is, and overwhelmingly, you would like to be where biden is. >> stewart steven, thank you very much and danny and vaughn, thank you as well. what does it mean to be permanently barred prosecute maga camp. two doe fors don't want to find out. they pulled funding hours after donald trump threatened anyone who would. joining us now mark sanford. i don't know if you're in south carolina right now. i hope you are and i wasn't wrong about that. mark, it's good to have you. two of these donors have dropped out. this sort of threat, what does it do to her ability to raise money? >> time will tell. i expect most of it's baked into

the cake at this point. there will be a few folks that want to stay relevant and a few other folks that figure trump will take us back in because we have long standing fundraising capacity on the republican side of the aisle. but i think for most folks it's not going to make a huge difference. these folks were outside of trump world, and they frankly view that as a badge of honor. i don't suspect they're going to be moving. >> nikki haley calls it her sweet state of south carolina. she was a governor there, a popular governor. she has recently helped congresswoman nancy mace get reelected, even though nancy mace has endorsed donald trump. is there a possibility she can pull this out in her state. >> never say never in the world of politics. it's a tough one at this point. i don't think trump helped himself a whole lot on tuesday night. that was sort of a bizarre reminder to a lot of folks, wait

a minute, this is a crazy world. do we want four more years of this. what i have heard from different friends is that was her financial wind fall, his bizarre talk after the new hampshire primary. but unless there's a seismic change, at this point, south carolina seems to be going for trump and it's going to take a seismic change to change that. >> do you see any vulnerabilities in south carolina that project forward to vulnerabilities in the general election, maybe not the state itself because the state is red, but other states that are more swingy. >> south carolina is a variety of different places as are so many states. the coast is much more moderate. you have northeasterners that have come from the northeast and upper midwest, and highly

educated. they came down here to retire, and enjoy life. they are decidedly within the haley camp: you'll see erosion but the base of the party is decidedly trump in south carolina, and i, again, don't know what changes that. >> former governor of south carolina, mark sanford, thank you so much for joining us. always good to have you. >> yes, ma'am. what senate minority leader mitch mcconnell just admitted about the bipartisan border deal. first, though, the state of the economy is great. what happened today that defied even wall street's wildest dreams. that's why my go to is nurtec odt. it's the only migraine medication that can treat and prevent my attacks all in one. don't take if allergic to nurtec. allergic reactions can occur even days after using. most common side effects were nausea, indigestion and stomach pain. now i'm in control.

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president joe biden is in battleground, wisconsin, today, and he has a spate of good news to lean on. this afternoon, biden pointed straight to those headlines.

>> here are this morning's headlines in the "wall street journal" and other papers. quote, u.s. shatters expectations, second headline, the u.s. economy boomed in 2023. third, u.s. economy grew at a shocking pace. i love the shocking pace. joining us now, nbc news business and data reporter, brian cheung. gdp, 3.3%, right? >> yeah, and of course, like, what is gdp, what does that mean even. 3.3% is the yearly rate the economy grew. if you look at the overall picture, it's good. this is in a 2023 that we expected to feature a recession, and it didn't happen. >> i'm so tired of hearing a recession because i feel like all of these companies are working off the idea they're headed for recession, laying people off, and it's not come ing. >> when comes to 2024, risk of recession isn't completely off the table.

it was almost a fore gone conclusion at the end of 2022, that last year was going to feature a recession, which would feature a spiking in the unemployment rate. for the whole year, the unemployment rate never went above 4%. by and large, we have seen a staving off of that thing everybody thought was inevitable, and with the consumer sentiment continuing to rise in 2024, there's optimism it won't happen. >> gdp is up, inflation is down. the better news for individuals is that their buying power is stronger because their wages are higher now, and they are now out pacing the level of inflation. >> that's a trend that only happened as of the spring last year, so it is true that over the course of 2022, the high inflation was eroding the amount that people were getting paid in terms of bonuses and promotionings. now we're seeing that people's wages are outpacing inflation.

whether or not that has made up for the erosion and savings that people had that high inflation of 2022 will depend on what household you're talking to. the american consumer is about 2/3 of the overall economy, the picture looks pretty good, and with high wages still going into 2024, maybe that picture holds. >> brian cheung, thank you very much for joining us. joining us with the "washington post" senior national political correspondent, msnbc political analyst, ashley parker, there's gdp numbers i was talking to with brian, the wage growth, inflation down, there was something interesting that happened yesterday and this was the leader of the uaw, shawn fain coming out and endorsing president biden, going after donald trump, i believe we have that sound, let's play it. >> he went to a non-union plant, invited by the boss, and trashed our union. donald trump is a scab.

donald trump is a billionaire and that who he represents. donald trump stands against everything we stand for as a union, as a society. >> is that significant having shawn fain coming out and doing that? >> it's certainly music to president biden's ears. and, you know, one challenge that biden and everyone has had in attacking donald trump is that unlike someone like mitt romney, donald trump has been able to make being a billionaire, which is frankly an over inflated number, but has been able to make being a rich guy an asset for him in a way that hurts other candidates, so that sort of attack that turns it into -- back into a political attack, he's not one of us. he's not for the working man. he's not representing blue collar workers and voters who so

often choose him is a compelling argument, if it can breakthrough. >> i think it's interesting to focus on the uaw because of the power they show during the negotiations with the big three auto companies. and the resiliency that it showed for unions beyond the uaw, we had the writers strike, ended favorably for the writers, same with sag, the port workers, rail workers, i can go on and on and on. all of these unions strengthening and winning their battles in the individual industries, there's also the sentiment around unions, around the general public, so does this message resonate beyond michigan, which is a battleground state? does it resonate more broadly around the country? >> well, again, this is exactly who president biden is aligning himself with and who he's visiting, and what he's talking about, and for what it's worth, this is a natural alignment for someone like biden. biden, as we have reported, you

know, scranton joe, he regularly, when he is working on his speeches and he's talking to aides, he tells them to sort of strike out the jargon. he wants to know, how would i explain this to my plumber. how is this policy going to affect the guy who's working on my car. this is sort of where he is most comfortable. this has long been his political strength. it was a frustration to his aids that this was somewhere where he seemed to struggle once he became the president. he got in the bubble that envelopes all presidents, and worked to break out. but, yeah, this is something potentially incredibly compelling for him. >> what about this gdp number, the economic outlook, does the white house see this as a turning point in the polling, are they hoping for that? >> they're certainly hoping for that. they're certainly thrilled about it. the challenge is that these, as

you said in the opening of the segment, this is great economic news, full stop. the challenge is the biden white house actually has had, you wouldn't know it from the way people have talked, has had some good economic indicators for a while now, and what they need to see happen is for them to trickle down to people's every day lives in terms of sort of prices, right. the price of gas, which is now lower, the price of groceries. the sort of price of a mortgage. interest rates come down to make moving houses, getting a mortgage a little more affordable. if you have a second, i want to say briefly, in iowa, i went to a rally or an event that donald trump junior had. these are not going to be biden supporters. the thing he said that resonated the most, he talked about coming home with a trip with a couple of his sons, stopping at mcdonald's and the bill coming to $49, and every person in the

room was nodding, and what biden needs is for those mcdonald's meals to feel a little bit more affordable. keep in mind, we're in january. if the economy trend that is way, that could be where we are heading into the summer. there's a disconnect, the extra step before this is fantastic news. >> i'm going to look at the menu, and see what you can get for $44. ashley parker, thank you very much. still ahead, cia director bill burns is headed back overseas. could a landmark deal to pause the war in gaza be on the horizon? first, though, congressman jim himes is on set on the democrats' way forward on ukraine aid and the border as it looks like a bipartisan deal is becoming less likely. help fuel today with boost high protein, complete nutrition you need... ...without the stuff you don't.

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republican minority leader mitch mcconnell says a border deal with democrats is a pipe dream because it's an election year. a source familiar with the comments tells nbc news mcconnell told gop colleagues in a closed door meeting trump is a factor and when asked directly, he didn't deny it. joining us now, democratic congressman, jim himes. thank you for being here. it looked like the border deal was getting close in the senate. what happened to it in the house was another story, but it feels like there's a moment now where republicans say they really want

a border deal. democrats are realizing that they need a border deal because politically speaking it's not so great in a lot of big democratic cities. why can't this be the moment that something happens? >> a big part of that is donald trump. if you think about the way this tragedy developed, and i'm not giving up just yet but i was in the room where the speaker of the house said to the national security adviser you must do a border deal in order to unlock ukraine. the national security adviser said we don't want to do that. the speaker said it is not happening. we'll do a border deal. there's a lot of enthusiasm. we have not done border or immigration in decades. we do a hard border immigration deal, that unlocks ukraine. because of the republicans binding the two together, we may not get a border deal or ukraine deal. it is because there are a number of republicans who realize the border is the one remaining political issue against joe

biden, and donald trump can't abide by the notion that someone other than him might do a big deal. >> can you walk through the concessions democrats were willing to make on the border that republicans are saying no to. >> without knowing what the deal looks like, i can tell you because i was in a meeting with the congressional leadership and chairs and ranking members of the committees, i heard the president say in the meeting, i will do a big deal. i want to move on the border. that is him saying i will expend capital here. classic washington, you'll hopefully come to a deal that doesn't thrill the more aggressive elements of both parties but this is the way we get things done. if the republicans walk away from the border, deal, again, not only do we not get -- we all recognize how untenable the situation at the border is but aid to ukraine is at risk, and that has implications for vladimir putin, president xi, you name it. >> why is mitch mcconnell backing away from aid to ukraine, he was such an advocate for it. >> i'm not sure he is. he's stating the obvious which

is that donald trump has a hell of a lot of sway inside primary the house republican caucus but look at them, as soon as he won in iowa and new hampshire, you know, people who behind closed doors, donald trump would be a massive danger to the republic, he should be our next president, i'm standing behind our nominee. >> just to focus more on immigration. i brought it up earlier, but i'll bring it up again, i was speaking it a black democrat out of chicago who said that she's a democrat but she's going to vote republican because she feels frustrated, infuriated with the way democrats are handling the border, and the benefits and help that migrants are getting, help that she says the black community has been asking for for decade asks is consistently told there's no money for. she sees an imbalance there. and i've heard that from others in various cities. do democrats, what is the democratic response to that voter who says she's gone? >> well, i've been in politics for a little while now, and you hear a lot of that on a lot of

different issues, israel, gaza, when people get concerned about an issue, they say this is what i'm going to do in the next election. in november, it looks like this is going to be the case, we're going to have donald trump with all that he wanted before, women's reproductive rights and chaos and attacks on democracy, and joe biden, you saw the numbers today, 3.3% economic growth. the contrast, you're not choosing perfection, you're choosing between two people. let's focus on immigration for a secondment we want to do a deal. you cannot have uncontrolled migration across the border. that is not acceptable. we see that here in new york city. it is not acceptable. we need to control the border, and yes, uncontrolled migration does put downward pressure on wages. i understand why people object to the idea, for a whole bunch of reasons. we are there to do the dealment again, don't take it from me. i heard the president in the cabinet room saying i will do a big deal. if a deal doesn't happen, it will be because of the republicans in the senate and the house. >> no one is benefits right now, especially the migrants who are

struggling, selling candy in the subways because they're not allowed to legally work. they're sleeping outside. itst a bad situation all around. we are reporting that the cia director is traveling to europe this weekend to meet with israeli and qatari intermediaries to try to negotiate a extended cease fire in gaza in exchange for the rest of the hostages back. what sort of pressure do you think the united states can put on israel and on the qataris to get something like this done? qataris who have to pressure hamas, by the way. >> exactly. i can't speculate too much on how you're going to move hamas. these are evil, totalitarian people. i do think that most people, and you're seeing this said in the senate and the house, i think most people realize that the humanitarian situation in gaza today, the tens of thousands of civilian casualties, the

deteriorating humanitarian situation is not tenable. it's not tenable for the people that are there. it's not tenable for the long-term security of israel. i think the president, the prime minister saying things like we will never abide by a two-state solution makes the situation worse, not better. and i hope that bill burns, who is the consummate diplomat will deliver that message. >> you're on the intelligence committee, are things getting worse or better in the red sea? >> they're getting worse. i am very glad that the white house finally put its foot down and said we will not tolerate attacks on international shipping but the houthis are not done yet, and remember, the houthis are empowered by taking fire from americans. this elevates their status. there was never going to be a military attack that would end their capability to attack shipping in the red sea. over time it will. over time, we hope the groups like the qataris and others, will say the chinese are being hurt, global shipping is being

hurt. stop it. >> congressman jim himes, i'm going to leave it there. thank you very much for coming in today. on the subject of bill burns going to europe to negotiate some sort of extended cease fire, let's bring in nbc news foreign correspondent raf sanchez from tel aviv. what else can you tell us? >> reporter: bill burns heading to europe. he's going to meet his israeli counter part, the head of the spy agency. he's going to meet the prime minister of qatar, who you said has been the key mediator here, and the hope is to try to close the gap, fairly big gap between israel and hamas to broker a deal, get a cease fire, and get those hostages home. the key sticking point sticking in this month and a half since the last cease-fire collapse how long will a fresh cease-fire last. the last one only stayed in place for a week. hmas has said it will not release anymore hostages until the war ends. israel says the war will not end

until hmas is destroyed. if there's going to be a deal, it has to be in between those two position ps. the fact that the cia director is flying over there is potentially a sign that we're getting closer. little counterintuitively. the fact that the fighting is so intense in southern gaza could be a sign that the israeli military feels there's a cease-fire looming and it wants to make as much progress on the battlefield as it can, but time is running out. the humanitarian situation in gaza has gone from bad to worse since the last cease-fires collapsed. time is running out for those 130 hostages. some of whom as we have talked about have serious wounds and medical conditions. >> thank you very much. coming up next, what nbc news correspondent antonia hylton uncovered after deades of research on a segregated asylum. don't go anywhere. a segregated asylum don't go anywher e. i know what it's like

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for 91 years, crownsville hospital of the only play to accept black marylanders who were struggling with mental illness. but the hospital wasn't helping them. and said it became sit nonmouse with violence and abuse, a symbol of america's racial trauma. now a local politician is working to transform it into a space for healing. joining us now is correspondent and the author of the brand new book "madness", it's out right now. antonia hylton, hello. >> thank you for having me. >> congratulations on the book. it's incredible. it's such a feat to accomplish this. tell me about what you discovered when you went back to this hospital. >> this is a really american story. this strange institution set up during jim crow to separate white patients from black

patients. and for decades, it's the only place that black people can go. it becomes this place of violence and abuse until a community starts to investigate, come to work for and try to support these patients. and so what we're seeing happen now in maryland is this sad and complicated chapter being turned into something that for the first time could represent real healing. take a look. >> in the heart of a forest in maryland, cadaver dogs search through the snow. they pause every time they identify a soul. many were buried in this cemetery as numbers, not names. from their time as patients in a torque segregated asylum that shaped the lives of locals like janis hayes williams. >> is this land skate sacred to you? >> 100%, yes, this is sacred. >> crownsville hospital opened in 1911 and closed in 2004. for decades it was the only place that accepted black marylanders suffering with mental illness.

it was notorious for overcrowding and abuse and a symbol of america's racial divide. >> if you lived here, this was a place you did not want to go. as a child, you were threatened by your parents or others. if you don't do what i tell you, i will send you to crownsville. >> with her help, this land will become a 500-acre memorial park that turns hospital build sboogs mental health treatment spaces, public gardens and biking paths. the need is great. last year a record number of americans took their own lives. the connecticut executive worked with janis to secure $30 million in funding from lawmakers. >> what do you want people the to see when they walk on this property? >> great work being done by a lot of people from diverse backgrounds to make the human

experience better. >> former patient reverend king shares that dream. she came here when she was a college student battling deep depression. it was stressful and overcrowded want. a team of nurses helped her recover. >> it was hard. i was confused. i didn't know if i could continue on. >> what do you think the potential is for this land? >> i think this land has great potential. healing needs to occur. and from healing comes new growth. >> healing propels this project. janis is a descendant of slaves that worked for the governor. the county executive, the descendent of those slave owners. >> do you think about that? >> i think we wear that like a banner because we are truly discounting. >> why do you think so many americans are having a hard time having these conversations about

history, collaborating with people who are different from them? >> fear of the unknown. >> reverend king started to share her story. >> just because you go through something doesn't mean that's the end. >> she hopes that this new memorial park becomes a model for our nation's healing. >> that community in maryland are hoping this park could become a model for what other cities, towns, communities around the this country could do to address the mental health crisis that's so real and facing people in every corner of >> a really difficult history. the book came out on tuesday. if you want to hear more gorks to the "today" show or cbs mornings with my husband. you can go to the view. and i understand you just sat down with fresh air. thank you very much. congratulations. that's going to do it for me. "deadline: white house" starts right now.