them? >> fear of the unknown. >> reverend king started to share her story. >> just because you go through something doesn't mean that's the end. >> she hopes that this new memorial park becomes a model for our nation's healing. >> that community in maryland are hoping this park could become a model for what other cities, towns, communities around the this country could do to address the mental health crisis that's so real and facing people in every corner of >> a really difficult history. the book came out on tuesday. if you want to hear more gorks to the "today" show or cbs mornings with my husband. you can go to the view. and i understand you just sat down with fresh air. thank you very much. congratulations. that's going to do it for me. "deadline: white house" starts right now.

hi, everyone. it's 4:00 here in new york. for about three minutes, a former president of the united states and current front runner for the republican presidential nomination was on the stand today. in case that seeks to hold him accountable for his words. that extraordinary courthouse moment today came on day four of ft defamation trial. donald trump testified in his defense. his attorney allowed to ask him only one question. do you standby your deposition? he said, 100%. he also added that he considers carroll's allegation false. that was stricken from the record immediately. that single question by his attorney is the result of a lengthy back and forth between the judge and trump's attorneys in which the judge warned trump not to relitigate the first trial in which he was found liable for sexually abusing

carroll. there are no do overs. he ruled out the kind of statements trump has made outside of court. carroll's attorneys entered into evidence some of those statements including a post trial press conference from truth social and an interview on right wing newsmax. all of which defamed carroll. they also played clips if his deposition including this one that proved to be devastating to the defense in the first carroll case. >> i don't even know the woman the. it's marla. >> that's marla. that's my wife. >> which one are you pointing to? >> here. >> the person you just pointed to is e. jean carroll. >> closing arguments begin tomorrow. that's where we start today with former deputy assistant attorney general harry litman. host of fast politics molly john

fast. but let's go to legal analyst lisa rubin, who was inside the courtroom today. talk to us about this incredible moment on the stand today. yeah, this is a day that i thought would really never come. i have told you and i have told msnbc viewers for weeks that i never thought donald trump would stake the stand. so for me, the moment traumatic moment was when she said the defense calls donald trump and everybody's jaw just dropped. collectively, i think there's a feeling that it was not only a mistake, but something we really didn't count on happening. when you talked about the three questions that his attorney was permitted to ask, we're going to have to see the transcript because the questions weren't stricken. in fact, only portions of the answers were struck in each case. so we're going to see what the judge allowed and didn't allow. my own recollection is donald trump is allowed to answer the second two questions in yes or

no ways. did you deny it buzz you wanted to defend yourself, yes, i it. then he continuesed to say it's totally false. that's when the judge cut him off. s he was asked did you instruct anyone to hurt her. he said, no, from my note, i just wanted to protect myself, my family and the presidency. that sentence was stricken. but i'm not sure that the no was. but irrespective of that, there were just three questions. it would be curious to see whether that has any impact on this jury or not, particularly when, as you noted earlier in the afternoon, we were treated to an array of clips from donald trump's prior depositions not only in this case, but also in the new york attorney general's deposition in the civil fraud trial that i have been following. and where we expect a decision either next week or shortly thereafter on the judge's own promise. donald trump talked about his

net worth, his brand value, the amount of cash that he has on hand. what each property might be worth and the conclusion that lingered with the jury was his self-profession that he's worth billions of dollars. that has to make an impact with these juror who are going to be asked not only to assess what amount of money is due to e. jean carroll to spend kpen sate her, for the harm to her reputation and the pain and suffering that she has gone through also what amount of punitive damages should be awarded to punish donald trump for his conduct, for his failure to stop defaming her after the initial verdict and instead to continue doing so. a truth social post including as recently as this morning, and is in a 30-plus post storm last night. >> that's a lot to unpack.

explain to e why lawyers would put their client on the stand in a defamation trial if he cannot stop defaming the plaintiff on tv, on social immediate yarks wherever he goes, wherever he is. >> i think to answer both of those questions, we didn't expect the day to come and the day didn't really come. in other words, she said he was very strict and she said my client wants to come on to deny. he said that's already been decided. but i wasn't at the first trial, yes, but there's a deposition. you can tell the jury you stick by that. that's all you can say. to lisa's second question, they did strike the no. they let him answer the question, but they didn't let him say anything that went to his reasoning, his intent, et set is ra. so why would she do it? because it was after this colloquy down to no risk. no cross-examination that he

could answer all he was able to say was i standby my deposition and that's why on the way out of the courtroom, he was what a terrible country this is. it wasn't a happy day for him where he got to justify his views. >> to your point about what is stricken from the record, what is on the record, how does it actually matter to the jury? given that it is now out there? >> right. our colleague said earlier today that there's this concept is of you can't unring a bell. in that respect, he's true. a jury can be told to disregard certain answers or certain testimony, but they have heard it. it can be hard to separate in their mind what is admissible, what is not. even questions themselves can indicate or imply things to a jury. as the judge told them today, a question is not evidence.

but again, if you're a juror, the implication from a question even if the objection to that question is sustained, that question might linger with you. i'll give you an example. today after donald trump was asked on cross-examination whether he attended the prior trial, the answer is no. he passed up the opportunity to come here when the questions of defamation and sexual assault were litigated. she is wanted to ask if he had counsel. then the follow-up question was, and did you take the advice of counsel on had that trial? she's trying to imply that if donald trump didn't show up last may, it's because his prior lawyer, who has since withdrew from representing trump, told him to do that. trump has, in fact, said exactly that. so there's a that that's said by implication, even in questions themselves, harry will know from his experience, the federal government side, that getting jurors to make that is easier

said than done. >> you said it's one confusing nonevent is. explain what you mean by that. >> the quick point here, everything lisa says i agree with. but for them, this two minutes in trial and next to what's going to be the center piece, the deposition itself where he makes a lot of damaging admissions. they were left scratching their head and will put it behind them. it was a weird and brief theater piece pretty much for counsel and clients that i think will have basically no impact on the jury. >> watching this as someone who cares very personally about the person at the center of this case. i have to imagine even something like today's antics simply land differently. >> know e. jean for a lock time. she's my mother's age. so i think a lot about the women of that generation. who came of age before roe v.

wade. who have lived this kind of feminist fight of which they have lost a lot of their rights. and it is a little tragic to me. we'll see what kind of -- she's going to win some money, but whether she wins $5 million or whatever that looks like, there's a question of she's 80 years old. >> we're having a conversation about rehabilitating what was a pristine reputation. >> and also how long do any of us have on this planet. and how much of that time do you want to spend getting death threats and being called terrible names by people the and sleeping with a gun next to your bed. there's a certain personal toll that i'm not sure is worth it. so i really my heart goes out to

her. i think she and robbie caplin are on the front lines of taking a lot of the institutional misogyny that is trumpism. >> to sit in that room and watch him on the stand today in what is very clearly a political the shenanigan. >> one of the things in her favor is there's candidate trump and defendant trump. those two people have very different needs. so he's tending to act as candidate trump, which is getting him in a lot of trouble. because he keeps defaming her. if he were really defendant trump, he would stop. so ultimately, it means more abuse for her, but ultimately, it will mean a bigger settlement. >> i want to talk about the new york.gs $370 million civil fraud case. it's a special appearance today. abc reporting the jury saw an excerpt of an deposition in

april 2023 as part o trump's separate civil fud lawsuit in which trumpoasted about his wealth asking that the value of his mar-a-lago resort is $1.5 billion,en meant to show trump could afford a large damage award. why play a clip like this from a separate trial? >> it's ironic in a way, becauses we i think he's boastful and inflates his value, but now that's going to come home to hurt him. it illustrates that anything you say, whatever the context, campaign trail, other lawsuit, can be used against you by a party opponent. why play it? to show he has the very thing that the judge said in opening. what does it take to punish a billionaire? and he keeps doing it and how much will it take to shut him up given how rich he is. ask that's going to actually pose an issue on appeal because there's going to be a question of i think punitive damages outside next to the compensatory

damages. but that's the idea. this fwie is so rich and the only way to make him stop is by really socking him with a huge punitive damages award. >> to pick up on that, he's been incredibly boastful about his personal wealth. what happens that comes back to bite him? >> this is this whole candidate vs. defendant trump thing. he has to say his whole presidential campaign in 2016 is and 2020, i'm a billionaire businessman, i don't need this. i don't even want to be president. i have so much money. and i think ultimately that's a real problem when these are damages about how much he can pay. and i also think that it seems is so counterintuitive that he's raising money to pay lawyers. some amount of his money that he raises goes to his lawyers. so if he is so rich, why does he

need to take that money to pay lawyers? >> the trump taem got shut down when they tied to bring up a conspiracy theory. when his attorney tried to introduce evidence that showed that carroll was aware of alleged efforts by george czar ross that the door is closed to that allegation. no evidence. why would they want to do this? >> they want to do anything they can and trump himself, who really we have seen before kind of has his way with his lawyers wants to make his case that it's all politicized, and the judge was strong. i want to hear in advance before he takes the stand when he want thes to stay in. restaurant strict restrictions. he stuck to them completely shut him down when he tried to go an ninch that direction. he wants to do it because that's been decided. this is not a trial as both parties said about whether he's assaulted her and whether he

lied about it. it's about damages and he didn't want to give trump the platform and the bull horn to make the points he wants to make on the campaign trail. >> closing arguments, they are tomorrow. what is it you're going to be looking for. what can we expect? >> i think it's straight forward for it's the compensatory piece. and most of this will have to do with the sort of pain and suffering i think more so than the reputational harm everything she has to bear week from week. but then the punitive damages, they are loosy goosy. and trump's attorney will say, you can't punish him that much. that will be where the real fight is. i think it will be fairly open ended and standardless that you'll hear again from caplin. what's it going to take to make him shut up to say there's only

so much you can really try to punish him for. i look for a lot to be on the punitive damages. i look for trump's attorney to try to slip in things about trump being innocent of intent, even though it's perfectly irrelevant. typically one doesn't object during a closing argument, although this with trump may prove an exception. >> part of the reason this particular case is so compelling is there's what it means for e. jean carroll. that's one of the things they are discussing. what's the dollar amount that will restore her reputation. there's what it means for survivors, who are watching e. jean carroll and seeing some of their own experience reflected back at them. and there's this bigger question about accountability for donald trump and whether or not the justice system will be able to hold him to account. so there's a the lot on the line personally, culturally and seismically for this country. >> yeah, and again, you have to think about this 2016 election

really was a referendum on misogyny in a certain way it was a woman versus a man who had many, many, many allegations from many women of sexual misconduct and sexual abuse. and so i think ultimately, it was -- this is the only case that has come out of that or this is the biggest case that's come out of it. i think it's quite important to sort of or at least she feels it's important she's able to sort of really have her moment in court and remember the jury already found that he was guilty of this. so this is now just numbers. >> she said, tired of staying quiet. thanks to lee is is a rubin at the courthouse. when we come back, it looks like jail time for peter navorro, who pushed congress to ignore the will of the american voters.

the judge admonishing for the insurrection at the capitol. plus gop front runner taking his thin skin and bruised ego to new minute-like tactics. nikki haley shows no signs of yielding the nomination to him. how the latest threats are being received. and a little later in the show, the court cases moving through the system are not just about legal accountability the for donald trump. for some of the biggest allies, details on the latest multibillion dollar lawsuit against one of the perpetrators of the big lie. all those stories and more when "deadline: white house" continues after this. "deadline: white house" continues after this custom scans help you find new trading opportunities, while an earnings tool helps you plan your trades and stay on top of the market. e*trade from morgan stanley.

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no vo ra was sentenced to prison today for defying a subpoena. he's now the second trump aid sentenced to pruz time for stone walling congress's january 6th investigation. steve bannon also received a four-month prison sentence. the decision is on hold pending appeal. navarro tried to argue when i received that subpoena is, i had an honest belief na the privilege had been invoked. the overoverseeing the case called out the hypocrisy telling him, you're more than happy to talk to the press about what you did, but not go to the hill to talk to congress. you're not the object of political prosecution. you have received every process you are due. he was quick to file a notice of appeal almost immediately after the sentence was issued. joining our conversation is justice reporter ryan riley, who was at the courthouse. harry litman is still with us.

our team was inside for the hearing. take us inside what happened. >> so peter navarro stands during the sentencing or court proceedings. he's standing next to the table as they go through this. but he's pretty defiant until the end. at the beginning, his attorney said that navarro would thot be making any comments, but he did at the end. but what the judge laid out, which we see a lot from judges these days is sort of throwing out these notions that this is all politically here. you see this with the january 6th prosecutions. that's a message that the judge was trying to send here saying that you take a look at the mark meadows situation, the former white house chief of staff, who hired a lawyer, who was dealing directly with the committee and took it seriously. and made comments all over the place, but refused to stone wall

congress and didn't take their requests seriously in the same thing with steve bannon. steve bannon's case was different because steve bannon didn't have an operational claim that he was protected by executive privilege because he had been out of the white house so long. and none of the stuff that the committee was seeking had had to do with the time when was at the white house, which was years ago. so navarro and bannon were slightly differently situated because you had a situation with him being a member of the administration, but ultimately, he ended up handing down the same sentence for both of them four months behind bars this isn't going to be something that's going to be operational any time soon. there's that appeal immediatly followed and steve bannon is still pursuing his appeal. there's going to be a delay before any requirement to report to jail is ultimately going to come up here. >> here's some of what the judge

said about navorro's executive privilege claims. sure, there are privilege, but to not engage these just no basis for it. did the executive privilege claims ever stand a chance? >> not as they turned out to be. it turned out that he was just invoking some stray statement that trump made in the press saying had he should invoke executive privilege, so no kind of command, no order at all. and ryan is right navorro, who is a pretty whacky figure,en wasn't in the -- was in the administration, but not really. he's an economics guy whereas both meadows are in the center circle with trump. that doesn't mean they are not culpable, but it does mean the doj, which basically calls ties for defendants could say they have a real basis for thinking

they could defy congress. no vo ra, no, and as ryan said, first, he wasn't going to say anything. then he made it sound as if he was really on the horns of a dilemma, but that was bogus. he had nothing from trump supporting his claim that he was supposed to invoke executive privilege. >> i need not remind you or our viewers that navarro spent a lot of time on cable news around the time of his conviction. one of his apooernss back from september. >> when we take it altogether, you were out there discussing aspects of what call the sweep or this lot for january 6th in public. you took this fight all the way through the committee and doj. and now you might risk going to prison and losing this legal fight for refusing to describe under oath what you had described in public. does that make sense?

was it all worth it? >> that's -- first of all, and last of all, i did the honorable thing. i did my duty to the country, constitution, and the law. the president invoked executive privilege, period. >> i both want you to debunk what it is we heard there from him, the argument that he's making and also speak to the fact that he's been pretty consistent in his defiance, and i wonder watching all this it how much that defiance hurt him here. >> first of all, we should say that joe biden waived executive privilege in this instance. that was an unusual circumstance and the needs of the country did not mean that executive privilege for donald trump should be invoked here. but also the main problem for navorro there's no evidence. he could not produce that evidence to the court.

there's a carefully worded letter that did not report to say that donald trump had actually invoked executive privilege for peter and he did not testify during his trial. he didn't even say under oath that donald trump told me that i'm covered by executive privilege or he was invoking executive privilege. there's nothing to look to. but it's important to remember why the committee was so interested in peter navorro's words. i sat through case after case in which defendants have cited that donald trump tweet on december 19th, 2020 as the reason that they came to the capitol or the reason they came to d.c. just very shortly thereafter a couple weeks later on january 6th. donald trump's will be wild tweet is based upon an added comment on this peter navorro report he put together that claimed it was statistically impossible for donald trump to have lost the election, which he did lose. so that's really the what was

motivating a lot of folks. donald trump's tweet built off this report that peter navorro put together. it was a real reason they felt the need they wanted to talk to him. >> he has vowed to take this to the supreme court. do you think it ends up there. >> no, he gets an automatic appeal. an important point. will the judge give him bail pending appeal. he's on all fours with ban non, who got bail from a different judge. but we're going to find out in many cases will a district court judge say while you awe peel this, you can remain at liberty or to you not have really anything to present to the court of appeals so you have to go in. and with a four-month sentence by the time the appeal would be over, he would have served his sentence. so that's still to be determined. they are going to brief that next week. it will be affirmed in short order by the d.c. circuit and won't go up to the supreme court. he really is an open and shut case.

>> harry litman, ryan, thank you both for spending time with us. after the break, a striking escalation today in donald trump's conquest to exact retribution on nikki haley. now in his sights not just her, but a significant portion of republican voters. his new threat is next. rtion of republican voters. his new threat is next sometimes, the lows of bipolar depression feel darkest before dawn. with caplyta, there's a chance to let in the lyte™. caplyta is proven to deliver significant relief across bipolar depression. unlike some medicines that only treat bipolar i, caplyta treats both bipolar i and ii depression. and in clinical trials, movement disorders and weight gain were not common. call your doctor about sudden mood changes, behaviors, or suicidal thoughts. antidepressants may increase these risks in young adults. elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke.

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he pitched a fit. he was insulting. he was doing what he does, but i know that's what he does when he's insecure. that's what he does when he's threatened. and he should feel threatened. without a doubt. >> it also goes back to why i push for a mental competency test for anyone over 75. so he got upset and he said he would take one and he would challenge me to one and he would beat me. maybe he would, maybe he wouldn't. but what i said is, okay, if that's the case, get on a debate stage and let's go. >> bring it, donald. show me what you got. >> tough talker, otherwise nikki haley's campaign holding on for dear life what's worse for her, donald trump is only now well and truly firing up his campaign

of retribution. you of a snarling desire for revenge, trump, the authoritarian bully is expanding his assault on his only adversary left standing. caught up in the blast radius, not just nikki haley herself, but also anybody who would seek to help her campaign. the disgraced ex-president posted that anyone who makes a contribution to haley's effort will be permanently barred from the maga camp. the prospect of ex-communication in mind, it will be interesting to monitor what happens when she spends a few days in new york for a number of fundraisers. joining our conversation is tim miller. and former obama campaign manager david plouffe. molly is still with us. david, few are going to shed a tear for threats made to billionaire donors, but trump suggesting that anyone who

donates to nikki haley will be banished from the republican party. just how extreme is that? >> no one is going to have sympathy for those threatened, but it's pathetic because at the end of the day, i think that those that give to haley, trump will be upset until they come kiss the ring. anybody that does that automatically gets in his good graces. it's fascinating to me as a former practitioner this is what donald trump is focused on. don't really like getting advice, but he should be focused on joe biden during the election general election. it speaks to how what wered he is and how focused he is on anybody that dare os oppose him. at the end of the day, it's not a smart way to enter this phase of the campaign. and my guess is it gets haley some light. maybe some of those donors will back out and maybe they won't. but it keeps her in the is spotlight. obviously, donald trump is almost certainly going to be the

nominee, but the longer this goes on, when he insists on battling down, that's not a good look for the general election and every state that votes, we're going to see more and more republicans and independents and that gives the biden campaign a sense of potential target voters for those that are at least at this point not sold on trump. >> to that idea of giving light and stealing light, nbc news obtained a a copy of a draft resolution that wouldecre donald trump the nominee of the gop. yoha haley eesz campaign responding. who cares what the rnc says. let millions of voters decide who should be our party's minee. not a bunch of washington insiders. they can organize a debate in south carolina unless she's also worried the trump can't handle being on the stage for 90 minutes with nikki haley. your thoughts on that resolution and on that response? >> we got a response from haley.

political malpractice from the rnc. we have the worst chairperson in the history of the republican national committee and is showing her terrible political instikts that have led to losses. it does nothing for trump. the rnc putting on a resolution saying he's the presumptivive nominee has no actual force. all it does is emphasize the fact that these republican elites are gaming the system for trump. it gives haley the boost that she can talk about this now and kind of position herself more as a fighting outsider. it undermines the arguments that are coming from trump about the let mitt jat kwis about the ballot or the 14th amendment, what's going on in colorado. on the one hand, we need trump to be on the ballot. the other hand we need to shut down all ballots and have a soviet-style campaign on the republican side.

it's one of these moves that has absolutely no upside and only downside, which is the hallmark of the mcdaniel tenure at the rnc. >> i think tim is totally right. they are elevating her. nikki haley, the numbers are not there. the math is not mathing. so every time trump spends time attacking her, which again trump, this is delicious for him. he's being challenged. and by a woman. this is like 2016 all over again. so he's going to have a hard time resisting this. and every time he does it, he elevates her because she can't win. it's unlikely she will win in south carolina. and the numbers are -- this is donald trump. he is the presumptivive nominee at this point. >> you made clear in your new publhed that for all the reasons the second trump term will be different, one thing will be the same.

there w a group of patsy is willing to be the front men and front women offering themselves as tributes to the strong men. they will be put forth a evidence that trump will be constrained, dictatorship is not emint, there will still be a fewdus in the room. there will mainstream establishment figures who encourage good people to serve because they still hold on to their belief that trump can be reignedn and the office must be protected. so brace yourself in the weeks ahead, you're going to be introduced to committee to save america 2.0. the protect, we serve, we care. expand on that. >> it's concerning. i was watching tim scott in new hampshire last week. just in that extremely effort to try to become the vice president. how he went over the top. this was the person that had a brand of being one of the more normal republicans, one of the more positive ones, not a maga

republican. so if tim scott wants to be with trump, that's one example. when i was doing various interviews, i heard a lot that trump recognize this is. he does not want to be surrounded by maga weirdos. he wants to be surrounded by people that look the part. this is traditional trump. he's going to want more ex-generals. and believe it or not, they are going to be ex-generals and ex-finance guys and republican congress people willing to work for him. even after they put out part mike pence, even knowing the risk of working for him, they want a security detail because they want a fancy title. i'm just deeply concerned that there's this narrative out here that trump 2.0 is going to be all lunatics and right now as we pivot to the general election, what you're going to see is he's going to start rolling out some of the more normal reallies who are going to try to pitch the swing demographic on the fact that, oh, you don't have to worry about it.

we'll keep in charge. we know that's ri dick louse. but i think there are going to be people us is settable to this. i think that tim scott gave us a preview of what is to come from a general election campaign. i think it's important to guard against that. >> i want to play some sound from tim scott rounding to that moment where donald trump turned to hum and said he must hate haley for ebb dorsing him. take a listen to how he was asked about it. >> was it uncomfortable for you? >> she serve issed our state well the as a governor. she's decided to be a moderate presidential candidate. >> she said she's not a globalist. >> when you're not willing to say unequivocally i will protect social security for every single senior citizen today -- >> they say it's just the 20-year-olds that have an adjustment with the age. >> watch the plan. when you think about the fact that we don't spend enough money

on our border and yet we're going to talk about whether it's ukraine or israel, which i support both, i can tell you this. if we don't have accountability, you can't spend money in ukraine. you have to protect america's border. the greatest invasion in american history has come across our southern border. >> i only have 30 seconds left, but that speaks to tim's point about how there will be normal who is will standby this guy. >> absolutely. they will twist themselves into a pretzel suggesting why it's okay. and i agree with tim. i'm sure they will try to put those people out in battleground states and talk about taxes and health care. but at the end of the day, trump 2.0 is going to be maga lunatics, but anybody that's considered mainstream is then going to become a lunatic and will have to support what the strong man want wants to do. that's the lesson here. >> no one is going anywhere. after the break, what a split screen as donald trump goes about issuing threats of political retribution.

president biden on the other hand is out on the trail at contrast, next. ther hand is out on the trail at contrast, next

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different course. trickle down economics. cut taxes for the wealthy and big corporations, increasing the deficit significantly. on my watch instead of infrastructure week, america is having an infrastructure decade. >> that was president biden this afternoon delivering on his promise to rebuild america's infrastructure announcing nearedly $5 billion in investments for 37 projects across the country from the bipartisan infrastructure law. including $1 billion for the state of wisconsin, president biden stood today at the sam damaged bridge he visited two years ago and promised to rebuild. president biden not only clearly turning his focus to the reelection, but displaying a split screen between what he and a disgraced president have has to offer. we're back with our panel. your reaction to biden here? >> it's excellent. it's great visuals. obviously, i'm sure there will be ads that follow from that.

and i think it's an amazing contrast. i think the contrast can be strengthened. so i think biden was able to get infrastructure done. trump wasn't. then there's a lot of good things that come from it. projects, growth, but there's a bigger point here, which is they will never be anything like infrastructure or any meaningful done with trump, because biden got it done because he was founding on rounding up republican votes to help build roads and bridges and ports and put people to work. if donald trump gets elected, he's been clear he's going to be focused on rounding up democrats to put them in jail and investigate them. and that's a really important contrast, which is nothing is going to happen in washington because donald trump is going to treat the other party as demonic, evil, unpatriotic, and he has no interest in working with them. it's a really important contrast for biden, but it goes beyond the powerful symbolism of the bridge, the money is powerful,

trump didn't get it done. there's a bigger contrast. >> there is a bigger contrast. it's not just a tell in message pg. it's not just about what is saiden of the stump. it's about showing voters. i am showing up here in wisconsin. i am showing you the power of the government to get things done. i am showing you that i have my eye on the ball. let's look at what's happening with my opponent. what is he up to today? and baked in there is the tell. that's got to matter in a state like wisconsin. a swing state where president biden defeated trump in 2020. >> i think when you talk about the steps, show where going tou advantage for biden. for all the talk about the trump trials and there's much to chew on there, there's a practical fact which is candidate time matters. every time that joe biden can be out in wisconsin at a bridge, if donald trump has to be defending

himself in court that day, that's a bad split screen, right? i do think it's going to limit donald trump's ability to do this. i was happy to see biden out there today. i think one of the big implicit messages that the president should be focusing on in this re-election, he's not picking winners or losers in politics. he's the president for everybody. a huge percentage of these investments are happening in red america. i expect and i hope that we'll see president biden a lot in deep red parts of the country, at plants, at roads and bridges and places where we're now manufacturing chips, where there are jobs. not necessarily because he's going to win the reddest parts of the country, but maybe he can tamp down the margins there and send a message to the swing voters that there really is a fundamental difference. i think that message is i care about and we're trying to help people in different parts of the

country. >> he's been in the cheese district. >> more important than that, this is economic populism, right? this is what trump ran on. biden is actually doing it. >> he ran on faux populism. >> biden has chips being built in america. he's got infrastructure. he's building the bridges, putting money into trains. these are things that -- it was infrastructure every week under donald trump and yet no infrastructure was ever built. >> says the girl who missed her train today. thank you so much for being with us. we'll be right back. being with us we'll be right back.

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abbvie could help you save. as we dive into the 2024 race, it's usually the incumbent party that has to defend whether they can honestly say promises made promises kept. a promise by the gop is on life support. while the rnc touted opening 20 hispanic community centers during the 2022 cycle, there are apparent only five still open, to of which opened in 2023. they were supposed to be part of the gop's outreach to latino voters. the messenger found that the centers yielded little community engagement. one las vegas activist, surprised to hear about the closures because she had never heard about the openings. coming up in the next hour of "deadline: white house," in

48 hours, the republican front-runner for the presidential nomination went from winning the new hampshire primary to testifying in a defamation trial. that's right after this quick that's right after this quick break. not just any whiteboard...

...katie porter's whiteboard is one way she's: [news anchor] ...often seen grilling top executives of banks, big pharma, even top administration officials. katie porter. never taken corporate pac money - never will. leading the fight to ban congressional stock trading. and the only democrat who opposed wasteful “earmarks” that fund politicians' pet projects. katie porter. focused on your challenges - from lowering housing costs

to fighting climate change. shake up the senate - with democrat katie porter. i'm katie porter and i approve this message. specifically you say it is a hoax and a lie just like all the other hoaxes that have been played on me for the past seven years. do you see that. >> yeah. >> you recall making that statement. and i take it what you're saying there is ms. carroll fabricated her claim that you sexually

assaulted her, correct? >> yes, totally, 100%. >> fair to say -- you'd agree with me, would you not, that you use the term hoax quite a lot? >> yes, i do. >> cnn reported you used it more than 250 times in 2020? >> could be. i've had a lot of hoaxes played on me. i'm alicia menendez in for nicolle wallace. two days ago donald trump was winning the first in the nation republican primary. today, a witness in a definition trial against him. no matter the setting, everything becomes a campaign event. those comments from the deposition you just heard could have been comments at a campaign rally. today the ex-president attempted to use his time in court as a political tool. after an intense exchange between trump's lawyers and the judge, the former president took to the witness stand for just under five minutes. his lawyer, alina hab pa, asked

him whether he stood by what he said in his deposition to which he responded 100%. trump then added that carroll's allegation was a false allegation, a line which the judge immediately struck from the record. it showed how desperately he was trying to put on a show even in the confines of a courtroom. closing arguments in this case begin tomorrow, meaning the question will soon be before the jury is how much money e. jean carroll will be awarded in damages. recent comments of his from a press conference and on social media were entered into evidence earlier today as further examples of the defamation. that is where we start this hour with msnbc host and legal analyst katie phang, former u.s. attorney, author of "attack from within, how disinformation is sabotaging america" and hoe coast of the sisters in law pod quad, barbara mcquade.

former congress from florida, msnbc political analyst david jolly. with me at the table, lucky me, nbc news correspondent vaughn hillyard. katie, let's start with you. trump's appearance on the stand today, so clear today just how much he wanted to go up there and have his say. >> but he didn't do himself any favors. in fact, the whopping two to three minutes he was on the stand went by so quickly and had zero impact, that he actually should not have appeared in the first place. why? because as judge kaplan has noted, as you have noted in the setup, this case is about damages. there's no do-overs on liability. donald trump, his own worst enemy, could have testified in the first defamation trial and he failed to do so. there's only one person to blame for why he finds himself completely handicapped in terms of trying to deny liability in this case. i will see alina habba made some relatively valiant effort by

having trump say he stands by his deposition testimony. that makes a big presumption -- remember this is a second defamation trial, that these juries have any benefit of knowing donald trump's denials of whether or not he sexually assaulted and defamed e. jean carroll. damages, what is that? money. in this instance the only expert witness testimony we've heard about damages has come through professor humphries on e. jean carroll's side. because donald trump's legal team did such a bad job preparing this case for trial the first time around and even this time around, there was zero defense expert witness that testified on behalf of donald trump when it came to whether or not e. jean carroll's damages were valid and the amount being claimed by her made sense. the jury is going to go into the deliberation room tomorrow after closing arguments after judge kaplan has instructed them again that liability is not on the table, it's just damages. so donald trump getting on the stand today, listen, he wanted

to do the drama. judge kaplan wasn't having it. alina habba wanted to facilitate the drama, judge kaplan wasn't having it. >> many critiques coming from our friend katie phang, is it just malpractice, or is that part of a strategy, we're not even focused on the legal because for us this is all about the political? >> it seems to me donald trump and his lawyers got together and are looking at a holistic strategy here. it seems more important to him to make sure that he is advancing his cause politically than it is legally. so i think he made peace long ago that he's going to be writing a big check to e. jean carroll. he really wants to get in and have just enough testimony to say to his supporters he's cleared his name. even though this trial was

supposed to be all about damages, he did squeeze in one little answer about standing by his deposition testimony, and that is to deny these claims by carroll. when he tried to go further, the judge shut it down and said get off the stand. i think that was it, how much can we get away with. he got maybe just enough in with that one answer where he can tell his supporters, i testified under oath that i didn't do all of these things. i think that's what they're looking at, big picture, politically, write the source, crowd source all the money he needs and that's his passage to success. >> david, if he's not focused on jurors and is instead focused on voters, how does this land with them? >> i'm not sure it lands the way he thinks it does. i know vaughn will have an opinion, we were on live together on this. we know his message of victimhood, the deep state is against me, prosecutors and judges, it really does excite republican voters, maybe even turns out new voters.

there's not a world, alicia where a candidate who is victim shaming a victim of sexual assault that that plays favorably for you. you can do it on the jack smith change, the mar-a-lago case. don't choose this one. by acknowledging he stands by his colleagues, he's victim shaming e. jean carroll. when nikki haley says i don't know about the case that way, do donald trump and republicans want to go into november taking the position of questioning e. jean carroll's testimony and being in the position of shaming a now recognized victim of sexual assault by a court? i don't think so. a bare minimum, it is off message for a political campaign. for voighters who are actually looking substantively at donald trump's character and are persuadable. do i want to go back to donald trump or give joe biden a second term? those voters probably look at this, unlike your traditional

republican voter and say, no, i don't think i want this guy. there's such a thing as too much trump. >> vaughn, i've heard you have this conversation in the field. i've heard you push to get to the reality back here on earth and heard the denial from the maga loyalist. how about the folks who do have reservations about donald trump? >> david is right. this is absolutely going to impact them. we saw from 2016 to 2020 how independents in the key battleground states swung by as much as 15 to 25%. that's notable. that's a constituency that donald trump is going to at least make some gains among. he believes -- the campaign believes they can turn out an even greater number of trump loyalists who are going to be invigorated by these trials and by what they contend to be political persecution. at the same time you have to counter that with an understanding that he has to make up some ground among some of these independents.

for donald trump, what he's essentially able to do, he doesn't run for this. everybody knows these trials are taking place. he can't run from those headlines. he is bringing them and trying to control and provide his followers and others defenses. when they're at the dinner table having conversations with family members or in the community, folks who follow his social media, listen to his campaign speeches or get access to his defenses, whether the e. jean carroll case, the federal elections case, the civil fraud trial, at least those conversations in communities, there's somebody in that group who is echoing or parroting the defense of donald trump. i can tell you i know that because of conversations with his supporters as i go around the country. folks know and folks say e. jean carroll fabricated the story, reference all quotes of hers. >> he pete his lies? >> they repeat his lies. he continues to give them the defenses so they can repeat

them. >> katie, i'm struck by the split screen you have by the president of the united states in wisconsin talking about using the power of the federal government to literally build bridges, to have not just infrastructure week, but infrastructure year and the former president doing what he's doing in new york. i'm also struck by the split screen between the testimony we heard from donald trump and the testimony we heard from e. jean carroll. the differential of grace, of dignity between those two people. >> yeah, and so i agree with vaughn wholeheartedly, that the parroting of the talking points, the narratives being advance bid donald trump and his surrogates, that's one thing they excel at, right? they do know how to create something and make it a viral moment so other people can latch onto it. that's what's so kind of pristine about the judicial system, that you can have the juxtaposition of somebody like e. jean carroll, the victim of sexual assault who has once again praefd taking the stand to

confront her abuser in court for the very first time. that is really noteworthy, right? as to david jolly's point as well, this is where the accountability meets the person who needs to be held accountable. and that's what's happening in court here. you had e. jean carroll who did everything in terms of her testimony, in terms of how she pursued justice in this case with grace and integrity. then you have donald trump who really didn't have an opportunity to basically alleviate or try to mitigate his liability, and he ends up just saying bombastic stuff that we know he's not supposed to say on the stand and he gets cut off. people need to remember that jurors are human and jurors are people. they're married and have spouses and sisters and other relatives and other friends and family that are women that are also people victims of sexual abuse and sexual assault. in this particular instance jurors are looking at the judge and looking at the dynamic of what is happening.

when they see a judge continually shutting down donald trump, it actually diminishes him. it makes him heene smaller as a person. it means that donald trump is doing something wrong. when he gets shut down by the judge and he can't say his lies and perpetrate his lies, a juror is watching that happening and reading that. they're feeding off the energy, alicia, and that's really important. tomorrow the jury is going to be looking at the judge and he's going to be giving them the law and they're going to go into the deliberation room, into the jury room and figure out how many zeros i'm going to put on this verdict form. that's their job, and they're looking at the judge to tell them what to do and also looking at the judge who is looking at donald trump saying, huh-uh, you're not allowed to do that. >> they're looking at the totality of what they saw in the courtroom. i want to play a little bit about what carroll's attorney said after the first trial. >> here the cruelty will make him less wealthy. he's not going to get away with it another time. it's unprecedented for a person to have been held liable in

definition to keep doing the defamation. there are not a lot of cases we can look to for a playbook of how to do it. suffice it to say, i have a lot of lawyers who are very busy looking into this and we're weighing all our options. >> we hear the phrase unprecedented thrown around a lot as it relates to donald trump. it truly is unprecedented who have a defendant who repeatedly continues to defame. >> yes. this case, of course, is about subsequent defamation, including on cnn and a town hall the day after the first jury rendered its verdict. and then throughout this trial donald trump has been posting all over truth social defamatory claims about e. jean carroll. i think this is a truly important moment because donald trump is trying to show he is above the law. i don't care. go ahead, sue me. you can't hurt me. that's what punitive damages are all about. she's seeking compensatory damages, that's how much she needs to remedy her reputation, to compensate her for the loss.

but she's also seeking punitive damages which is an amount of money designed to punish someone for violating the law. that's where the number could get very high in a hurry with this jury. i imagine roberta kaplan is going to point out all these instances of donald trump not getting the message the first time and continuing. to ultimately hold him accountable and deter him and others from violating the law in the future, they need a very big number to come back. >> david, you can obviously draw a line from the e. jean carroll case to trump's re-election and the ways in which they are tied by substantive matter, but less so than many of the other cases that are currently pending. i wonder, as you watch the way he's behaving in this e. jean carroll case, as we talk about these other cases more intimately tied to his ability to seek office, to seek re-election, how should we expect him to behave. >> donald trump believes he's

shattered all the norms of politics. he's certainly shattered many of them. i would suggest the entire litigation calendar that we're looking at for donald trump from now to november, nothing is going to change the narrative that voters currently subscribe to within their own personal ethos. what do you see if there is indeed a conviction which likely based on a calendar would not occur before november. particularly in these civil cases, you don't see them making that big of a difference, but -- what i said earlier, this is the wrong case for donald trump to highlight. this is a case that people are attuned to when you hear about sexual assault so in this matter, i think it is a legitimate question. where do, for instance, the 25% of new hampshire republicans who voted for nikki haley, where do they go? why did they choose nikki haley? was it just around tax policy or foreign policy? probably not. do all of those voters go home? i don't think so. one of the reasons some of those voters go to joe biden is for

matters like this. the more donald trump highlights this kaeshgs he reminds voters why they don't want him to return to the white house. donald trump should have written the $5 million check in the first case and shut his mouth. he chose not to, and there could be an electoral consequence for it. >> do you have a sense after being in iowa and new hampshire where those voters go? >> i think we have evidence already from 2020 election and 2022 where they go. think eve been willing to vote democratic three election cycles in a row. in 2016 there is dozens of allegations of sexual harassment, sexual abuse made against donald trump, but this goaround, this is a jury that has found donald trump to have sexually abused e. jean carroll. none of the republican rival have used that against him. we saw nikki haley in an interview saying she's not following the day to day. men care about sexual abuse, let's be very clear. if you look at exit polling, and this is beyond just the e. jean carroll case, in the state of

new hampshire here on tuesday night, exit polling showed donald trump won men by 20 percentage points. among women, it was just 4 percentage points over nikki haley. donald trump cannot afford to continue to lose women in america, let alone men here at this point, and having a jury having found him to have sexually abused a woman. i imagine joe biden and the democrats will make america aware of that, in no means possible in 2024 is that a benefit to donald trump. >> vaughn hillyard, so nice to see you indoors with us, in studio. >> thank you. >> everyone else is sticking with me. donald trump facing legal jeopardy in another case right here in new york that could end up being the first criminal prosecution of an ex-president. how the prosecutor in that case is reframing what he says is much more than pa hush money payment to a porn star. stop me if you've heard this

before. senate republican leader -- later. bad news for fox after a judge green lights a massive $2.7 billion lawsuit for pushing the big lie. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. stay with us. " continues after a quick break. ay with us (vo) sail through the heart of historic cities and unforgettable scenery with viking. unpack once, and get closer to iconic landmarks, local life, and cultural treasures. because when you experience europe on a viking longship, you'll spend less time getting there and more time being there. viking. exploring the world in comfort.

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in which he faces 91 felony charges, the first is over his efforts to overturn the 2020 election. that appears increasingly likely to get delayed which could make manhattan district attorney alvin bragg the first to criminally prosecute trump, a prosecutor who has expressed a willingness to let the federal trials go first, immune from interference by trump if he were to become president. as "the new york times" points out, bragg has been quietly and rigorously building his case and his team. in recent months, publicly remanded his charges that he paid payments to the porn star as a clear-cut instance of election interference and in parallel with the case in washington. we're back with katie, barb and david. katie, the real possibility that bragg could go first. >> we do know that alvin bragg indicated he would be willing to

take a back seat if the federal election interference trial went forward at the beginning of march. as you noted, it's likely not to move forward at the beginning of march because of the variety of appeals taking place right now. that being said, alvin bragg could take this case to trial now at the end of march. a few things that we know why this is going to be perhaps going to happen. one, donald trump's lawyer who is defending him in that case, he's not only been present at the new york attorney general civil fraud trial to check out michael cohen's testimony, but also there to check out donald trump's testimony and was there today to check out donald trump's testimony in the e. jean carroll defamation trial. trump's defense team in the new york criminal case for the d.a.'s office, they've been trying to see what's our client like in the courtroom on the stand. nothing, frankly, as a lawyer that they're seeing is good for them. but it does indicate that there's something apace in terms

of that going to trial. i would reasonably anticipate on february 15th -- an important date for everybody. february 15th is the date for pretrial motions to be had in that case with d.a. alvin bragg. we'll hear whether or not we're going to trial on march 25th. >> so many dates in my head, katie. that's why we have the graphics. barb, take a listen to what bragg said in a radio interview last month. >> the case is not -- the core of it's not money for sex. we would say it's about conspiring to corrupt a presidential election and then lying in new york business records to cover it up. so that's the heart of the case as we lay it out in court filings. >> even more than the timeline, barb, what i find fascinating is bragg's rebranding of this case, not as a hutch money case which made it feel like it was separate and apart from everything else that we're talking about, but rather as another case of defrauding voters and election

interference. i wonder how that difference plays out in court. >> i think this is really interesting, and i think it's really smart for alvin bragg to do so. the facts are the facts and the law is the law. a jury is going to be asked to find that the elements of crimes have been satisfied. but when prosecutors bring a case, they also have to bring a reason for a jury to care. there's such a thing as jury nullification, where a jury might say, yeah, it sounds like a technical violation to me, but what's the big deal? donald trump was just protecting his reputation against some woman and trying to protect his family, what's the big deal? that could call for jury nullification where they disregard the law. instead, by framing it in this way and showing the harm it had on the election, information that voters might have used to change their mind about who they were going to vote for in the 2016 election suddenly it becomes a lot more important and more compelling. it doesn't really change the

facts or change the law, but it gives jurors a reason to want to convict when maybe they thought it's not such a big deal if it's just about hush money. >> david, given the fact he's making all this political, you see it additionally as part of this larger pattern of election interference. >> it's a business fraud case. i think 32, 34 business fraud charges. bragg is trying to contextualize this as perhaps the first election case. if donald trump is convicted, particularly on a matter like this, of election interference, it does begin to inform voters. i think trump is betting on something differently, the words of martin luther king, the arc of the moral universe bends slowly but towards justice. donald trump is hoping the arc of the political universe bends

toward nobody caring. i think alvin bragg knows that. part of trump's strategy is that none of this hat terse and nobody cares. alvin bragg's office is telling you why you should care. this is actually the first election interference case. >> katie, there's also the colorado 14th amendment decision, weighed by the supreme court whether to disqualify trump from elections. there's a new op-ed arguing upholding the ruling would not only save the court's legitimacy but their previous commitment to originalism in the roe v. wade ruling. explain why it might matter? >> there's this idea on the supreme court that the trump-appointed justices, that they're the ones that are tried and true originalists, meaning they look at the framers and the way the constitution was written and the way the amends are written and they're going to stay completely within the lines

of what the text says. so if you consider the fact that roe v. wade was overturned with the jobs decision because a slew of justices decided, we're going to stick with whatever the original language was and it didn't include this issue of abortion access and reproductive rights, if you apply that same logic, if you look at section 3 of the 14th amendment, it should be clear on the face of the amendment itself that donald trump should not be on a ballot, period. remember, it's such a kind of legal fiction to think that these justices don't operate -- these justices operate in a vacuum. they don't. they have their own reasons behind the way that they're looking at things. they have their own reasons behind why they're deciding the cases the way they do. this op-ed in politico was interesting. it goes a step further beyond just saying let's stick with originalism. if you do, the judges should be

bound by kicking trump off the ballot. maybe these jurists on the supreme court should delay the primaries or delay super tuesday, et cetera. i don't think that justices should get involved politically in anything. that applies on either side of the aisle, alicia, which is why when you do see political activism, especially as high as the supreme court of the united states, that gives you serious cause for pause and concern. >> katie phang, barbara mcquade, david jolly, thank you for spending time with us. a real profile in courage. has senator mitch mcconnell reverse course, turning his back on an immigration deal because he doesn't want to upset the twice-impeached ex-president. that story next. story next. libtreally blubatoo. mark that one. that was nice! i think you're supposed to stand over there. oh am i? thank you. so, a couple more? we'll just...we'll rip. we'll go quick. libu smeebo. libu bribu. limu bibu...and me.

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not just any whiteboard... ...katie porter's whiteboard is one way she's: [news anchor] ...often seen grilling top executives of banks, big pharma, even top administration officials. katie porter. never taken corporate pac money - never will. leading the fight to ban congressional stock trading. and the only democrat who opposed wasteful “earmarks” that fund politicians' pet projects. katie porter. focused on your challenges - from lowering housing costs to fighting climate change. shake up the senate - with democrat katie porter. i'm katie porter and i approve this message.

our top political priority over the next two years should be to deny president obama a second term. >> senator minority leader mitch mcconnell back in 2010 vowing to obstruct legislation for purely political purposes to try to keep then president obama from being elected to a second term. he failed then, but he is at it again now. nbc news reporting that, quote, inside a special closed door republican meeting on wednesday senate minority leader mitch mcconnell cast doubt on an emerging deal to tighten immigration laws, telling senators that linking the two measures would also sink ukraine aid. senator mcconnell adding the politics on this have changed. those politics are purely the

desire to see president trump re-elected. it's a facto in the ongoing congressional negotiations. mcconnell telling republicans, we don't want to do anything to undermine him. joining us now, democratic senator chris kuns of delaware and co-chair of president biden's re-election campaign. senator, thanks for being us. first let's talk about foreign aid. then let's talk about immigration. when it comes to this aid, what are the stakes of an inevitable delay? >> the stakes are incredibly high here, alicia. the supplemental that president biden sent to the senate and asked us to pass many months ago include several different pockets of spending, support for ukraine in their ongoing fight for freedom against russian aggression, support for humanitarian assistance critically needed in gaza, but in a dozen other countries, from

jordan, to leb bon to sudan to syria to afghanistan. support for our indo-pacific partners, type want and many other countries, and support for israel. there was also a specific request for $14 billion in border security funding to hire more border security control agents or customs and border patrol, more lawyers to handle quickly the asylum cases of folks coming to this country seeking asylum. what is concerning about the development that there are republicans egged on by former president trump now cheering for a failure of the border security deal that's been negotiated over the last couple months, is that rather than solving the problem, they may now be trying to instead have an election issue for the fall at the behest of former president trump. if they do that, they will own responsibility for refusing, once again, to come to the table to negotiate to a good resolution and to try to fix the

problem together with president biden and democrats who are willing partners in trying to address our border challenges. >> i want to underscore some of the elements of this immigration deal, the con tors of which were still coming together. as you well know, there were a lot of advocates who didn't like this deal for the exact opposite reasons that some republicans were suspicious of it, which is they thought democrats were giving away too much in the way of parole authorities, expulsion authority. republicans are supposedly hair on fire over the border are suddenly walking away from this deal in favor of something theoretically more restrictionist and ugly like hr 2 which they know they can never get done. >> there's two very strongly different factions in the senate republican caucus, those who don't want a deal who are listening to former president trump, who don't support additional appropriations or support for ukraine, who just don't want to see us get more done. it would be hard for the house republican caucus to get less

done than they've accomplished in this congress so far. then there are others who still want us to move forward. not to contradict some of the reporting you just put up, but in personal direct conversations today on the floor of the senate with mcconnell, with thune, with cornyn, with langford and our negotiators, senators murphy and sinema, i'm convinced that republican leadership in the senate still wants to get this deal done because they badly want to support ukraine. but there is a significant group in the republican caucus here in the senate, the freedom caucus of the senate, that wants us to get nothing done. >> help me understand then, when mitch mcconnell says the politics are changed, your sense of what it is he's referring to. >> so he explained that in much more detail in a direct conversation we had today and made forceful statements in front of his caucus at lunch today. he is recognizing that his caucus is divided, that there

are some very loud voices that are opposing the border security deal that senator lankford at senator mcconnell's encouragement and direction negotiated. senator mcconnell asserted he still wants to move ahead with aid to ukraine and a border security deal, senators thune and cornyn, pris principal lieutenants repeated that in the hallway and on the floor. there are very loud voices, extreme voices in the senate republican caucus who want to make sure we're not successful, that we can't come together. a compromise, alicia, is something where no one is happy but where we make real progress, where there will be both democrats and republicans supporting it. they want to make sure there's still a serious and significant challenge at the border so that former president trump has it as a core issue to cajole president biden with in the fall. that's unfortunate. that's failed leadership. senator mcconnell still wants to get a package of aid done for ukraine and border security.

>> senator, as you were trying to hash this all out in congress, there's also sort of a sub plot here that is emerging out of the state of texas, a back and forth in the united states supreme court. "the texas tribune" reporting the texas national guard and state troopers are still rolling out cons tina wire and preventing access to most of shelby park that sits on the bank of the rio grande where thousands of migrants have crossed. this is despite the ruling against texas governor greg abbott earlier this week. it feels like a step in the continuation of republicans exploiting concerns about immigration to embrace authoritarianism, to say we're going to go it alone, the rules do not apply to us. >> well, i thought it was striking that the supreme court recently ruled that border control -- that the border patrol agents should have access to the border of the united states. that was a broad coalition of

justices that rendered that. i've been to that park. i've been to that point in eagle pass, a bipartisan allegation that included senators langford and murphy and cornyn and others, went to visit el paso, texas last year. what i thought was truly tragic was the recent event where several migrants drown trying to cross the rio grande and where that wire was kept to prevent border patrol agents from coming to their aid and saving their lives. this is an ongoing humanitarian crisis at our southern border. we need to do something to reduce the number of folks making the long journey from their countries in origin. we need to invest in stabilizing those countries and improving the conditions in countries throughout our region, but we also needs to make sure it's clear that the federal government is principally responsible for immigration and border security and we need to invest in improving border

security so we can develop a path towards an immigration system that is safe, legal and human. >> senator coons, thank you for talking through the deal, critical stakes for this country, ukraine, the middle east, the u.s./mexico border. why fox isn't out of the woods in a huge $2.7 million defamation lawsuit rooted in the big lie. big lie. that story after a quick break.

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the blow to the fox corporation, a new york judge ruled on wednesday that it must face the $2.7 billion defamation suit brought by smart mat tick. the judge said in a separate ruling smartmatic must face fox's claims that their defamation claims are intended to suppress free speech. today, quote, a pair of rs, a win for each side, continue the lengthy and costly court battleetween smartmatic, a voting company, despite being used by one u.s. district in 2020. fox news corp says it covered newsworthy events and individuals surrounding the 2020 election. the pair of rulings also meet both the smartmatic suit and the network claims can continue to an eventual trial. first amendment scholar with columbia university, ramel anderson jones. this likely headed to trial. let's not forget fox settled

with dominion voting systems for $787.5 million instead of going to trial. how could this case be different given that knocks is allowed to pursue their counterclaims? >> well, you're right that it's very parallel in a lot of ways. it's the same cast of characters in terms of the guests that fox had on and in terms of the scope of the lies that the two voting machine companies are suggesting were told about them. one important way that it's different is seen in this ruling that we just got from the judge yesterday which is that fox in this case is trying to invoke something called an anti-slap statute. this is a law designed really to take care of people or entities that are sued by folks who are bringing those suits in bad faith, that is, they aren't bringing the suits because they have merit. they know they're baseless and they're bringing them just to

weaponize libel law. and they're using them to silence critics and kill free speech. here it's engaging in something of a twist on this argument and is arguing that the staggering damages being sought, these $2.7 billion in damages, are evidence that the suit was brought only to chill speech and not to remedy any real harm that was done by the defamation. so that piece of the suit is going to be moving forward, and that's different than what we saw in the dominion case. it gives us something to watch in smartmatic that won't be aligned with what was already decided in the case settled for those high dollars last year. >> jeremy peters, i want you to listen to some of the claims that fox aired. >> it says smartmatic's technology was used to rig elections in venezuela.

it's now in, quote, the dna of every vote tabulating software and system. >> one source says the key point to understand is the smartmatic system has a back door that allows the votes to be mirrored and monitored, allowing an intervening party a realtime understanding of how many votes will be needed to gain an electoral advantage. >> you kind of forget some of the frenetic energy of that moment and what was happening over there. your sense of what fox's defense of claims like what we just watched would look like. >> you do forget how preposterous a lot of these claims were and how tin foil hat they were, this idea that people could hack into dominion and smartmatic smartmatic software and the way that trump allies and rudy giuliani insisted this happened when there was absolutely no evidence that it

did, it really kind of shocking and i think something we should all keep in mind going into 2024 and our upcoming presidential election, the lengths to which donald trump and his supporters will go to discredit results that they see as unfavorable, they've really shown no bounds. fox does have a defense working in its favor that it did not have in the dominion case. the dominion case, of course, was the one where they paid out $787.5 million, almost a billion dollars in damages, the largest defamation settlement known in history. smartmatic can't quite prove the damages that dominion would have been able to make an argument for if this case went to trial. smartmatic machines, unlike dominion machines -- dominion

machines were widely in use in swing states and jurisdictions all across the country. unlike dominion, smartmatic was only in use in los angeles county, one county in the entire united states. so it makes it a little harder for smartmatic to say that the -- that this really harmed their business. in fact, in some of the discovery that's become public in this case, we see that smartmatic officials indeed in one instance said they had concerns about the case. so this isn't going to be dominion, and i wouldn't expect it to be as explosive in terms of revelations from the >> as explosive in terms of revelations from the private tech messages of people like tucker carlson and janine perault, sean hannity. we've already seen, i mean, it's kind of hard to imagine how much worse it could get for fox. maybe it can, maybe i just

don't have an imaginative enough brain, but the allegations of what we saw spillover, spill out into public be view from dominion is just so explosive. this case was always, i think, going to have a backseat nature to it. >> your sense for now, i mean, any chance fox settles again here? or are they ready to go to trial? >> well, it's hard to say so i think a lot of us didn't predict that the settlement would happen last time around and done it did. truly, the 11th hour. one interesting component of this is that the latest ruling that the judge brings into the sphere of this case, fox corporation, the parent corporation, the judge said that smartmatic had sufficiently alleged to really important things. one, that the parent company was involved enough in the decision to air these defamatory broadcasts, and the

second is actual malice. that is, knowing falsity are reckless disregard for the truth. that is, the judge said that smartmatic had sufficiently allege that not just fox, but the fox parent corporation, had engaged in knowing falsity or reckless disregard for the truth, a conscience corporate decision to lean into this lie for purposes of boosting viewership and increasing profits. so, we do have this very parallel cast of characters and would be creepy careening towards the situation quite similar to the dominion one, where we sat on the cusp of the possibility of seeing rupert murdoch on the stand. because of this most recent ruling, we are in that situation again, potentially. >> brunelle anderson jones, jeremy peters, thank you so much for spending some time with us. we're going to sneak in a quick break and then we will be right back. will be righ back back to help improve player performance. t-mobile's network helps aaa stay connected nationwide...

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you'll receive this special save the children tote bag to show you won't forget the children who are living their lives in conflict. every war is a war against children. please give now. biden administration, making a big push to free the hostages in the, israel-hamas war. cia director bill burns will meet with the israeli and egyptian intelligence chiefs as well as the qatari prime minister, -- this weekend. joining negotiations to secure the release of the more than 130 hostages believed to still be held captive in gaza. that, according to a diplomat with knowledge of the matter. according to the washington post, israel is proposing a two month pause in fighting and exchange for the release of all hostages held by hamas. the end of two months. fighting can resume as israeli prime minister netanyahu has

vowed to achieve total victory by destroying hamas. hamas is demanding a permanent stop to the fighting, the removal of israeli troops, and the release of a large number of palestinian prisoners. including some who carried out the october terror attacks. another break for us, we will be right back. wil be right back. be right back. >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪ okay everyone, our mission is to provide complete, balanced nutrition for strength and energy. yay - woo hoo! ensure, with 27 vitamins and minerals, nutrients for immune health. and ensure complete with 30 grams of protein. (♪♪) >> thank you for spending part

of your thsday with us. we are, as always, so grateful to be with. -- hi, ari. >> hi, alicia, thank you so much. welcome to the beat, i'm ari melber. our top story is th. defending donald trump taking the stand in a courtroom today, speaking under oath in front of the jury that will decide the damages he owns four writer e.

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