last five, ten years that appeals or is it always a throwback? >> the irishman. that was set in erie, p.a., close to buffalo. i felt close to home with that movie. >> that's interesting. and dave east, also a new york rapper, he's playing with the hoffa themes and all the old school stuff which is fascinating. there's a saying, last year was about brandon, this year is about expanding. there we go. pleasure. rev, good to see you. remind everyone, benny's new project is everybody can't go. expanding. you can pick up the project because that album drops tomorrow. thanks to both of our guests. "the reidout" is up next. tonight on "the reidout" -- >> this case is costing already almost a million dollars. i'm going to need your support,

folks, for the appeal. >> yet another trump associate is heading to prison. broke. humiliated, and begging for money. also, the republican front-runner himself was on the witness stand today, for all of three minutes, as the defense rests in the e. jean carroll defamation case. plus, the horrifying post-roe consequences. nearly 65,000 pregnancies from rape in the 14 states with abortion bans. but we begin tonight in new york, where donald trump fresh off his new hampshire primary victory, making him the all but certain republican presidential nominee, addressed a much smaller crowd today. a nine-member federal jury in the second civil defamation trial brought by writer e. jean carroll. separate jury last year found trump liable for both sexually abusing carroll in the late 1990s and defaming her in recent years. yeah, let's just take a moment to remember that.

the presumptive republican presidential nominee is someone who has been found liable for sexual abuse. he was mia during that first trial. but this time, trump was clamoring to take the witness stand, which lasted all of three minutes because there was not much trump could say at this point, that's because the judge told trump there were no do-overs and because of the prior jury's verdict which was unanimous, trump entered this courtroom still liable. the only question this jury has to decide is how much money trump will have to pay carroll for the defamatory statements he made while president and in his continuing attacks. to be honest, that's probably to trump's benefit, because any time he has testified or sat for a deposition and said anything other than i plead the fifth, he just makes his lawyers' jobs that much harder. the jury today was provided with some of his deposition from the first defamation case in which trump publicly claimed he could have never done anything to carroll because she was

supposedly not his type. and he said this. >> i don't even know the woman, i don't know -- it's marla. >> you say marla is in this photo? >> that's marla. that's my wife. >> which woman are you pointing to? >> here. >> the person you pointed to is e. jean carroll. >> i'm sure that was just an honest mistake. and those attacks on carroll that i mentioned, well, they have continued to this very day on the campaign trail and feverishly on social media. just last night in a span of 20 minutes, trump posted more than three dozen times about carroll. including some of the same defamatory statements that brought him to court in the first place, again, i have to bring up this is the presumptive republican presidential nominee who posted every 30 seconds attacking an 80-year-old who he was found liable for sexually abusing.

and you would think trump would learn a thing or two from seeing what happened to his former lawyer, rudy giuliani's performance in his defamation trial last year brought by the two georgia election workers, ruby freeman and shaye moss. giuliani also showed disdain for the plaintiffs, repeating the same defamatory statements. inhat case, a jury awarded the mother and daughter duo nearly $150 million in damages. as for trump, he'll be back in the courtroom tomorrow morning for the closing arguments and the jury could start its deliberations by lunch time. and if this jury works as fast as the last one, which returns its verdict in just under three hours, we could very well know the results before the day is over. joining me now is msnbc legal analyst lisa reuben, who was in the courtroom today. paul butler, former federal prosecutor and professor at georgetown school of law. and david k. johnston, author of "the big cheat" and founder of

dcreport.org. >> why was that testimony only three minutes. >> only three minutes because judge kaplan had already made some rulings that really circumscribed what trump could testify to. chiefly, he said he couldn't testify that the defamation wasn't in fact defamatory. he couldn't testify that the sexual assault didn't happen. and he also couldn't testify to a number of other things that he wanted to testify to, including for example, her sexual history or proclivities. so that really limited donald trump in terms of what he could permissibly say. not withstanding that, judge kaplan wasn't satisfied that his instructions would be enough. he subjected alena habba to what we call a proffer, where he asked her to explain what questions do you intend to ask your client today? and how do you expect that your client is going to answer that? one of the things i thought was most interesting about that was judge kaplan wanted to know, have you personally conveyed to your client the consequences of

defying my orders, and do you understand from your client that he's going to answer the way that i have laid out to you is the acceptable path? alena was clear she had given those instructions personally to former president trump. what she was less clear about and in fact evasive about was whether trump had in turn promised her that he would stick to the script, so to speak. i think that's really telling because alena habba herself knows full well that her client can't be controlled, and she was effectively signaling to the judge today, your honor, i know i can't control my client. that's why you and i have to go through this exercise right now. >> it is really stunning, paul, just -- i'm going to put up a few of the texts this week. abc, i get even. this is against nikki haley. sorry, these are the wrong ones. basically, he attacked this woman every 30 seconds on his fake social media, his pretend twitter. he keeps attacking her and

attacking her. in the midst of a defamation trial. when rudy giuliani did that, he ended up being lighter in the wallet by $150 million. >> three minutes of testimony, three minutes of an epic fail. not only has trump defamed this woman outside of the courtroom. he defamed her in answering the first question. the first question was, do you stand by your testimony in the deposition? he said yes. that was a false accusation. once again, he's lying about this woman who he sexually assaulted. juries love when the defendant takes the stand. it's a chance for them to size him up. so how did trump come across? he was not remorseful. he was defiant. he was disrespectful of the judge, after the three minutes, the judge basically told him to sit down and shut up. will the jury remember that when they decide how much money trump has to pay ms. carroll? i believe they will. you mentioned shaye moss and ruby freeman, their defamation

case against rudy giuliani. they were asking for a few million dollars. a lot of people thought that was too much. the contrary came back with almost $150 million. >> just to explain, the punitive damages, right, if they're around $10 million, because the first time she got like $5 million, the first defamation case that e. jean carroll got. then on top of that, the jury can say, here is the punitive charges, but here is for her pain and suffering. >> exactly, the punitive damages are about what will it take to make -- >> make him stop. >> never lie about another person who is a victim of sexual assault, especially someone that he himself has sexually assaulted. we want to think about the $5 million verdict. that was about comments that trump made when he was not president. this damages award will be about what trump said when he was president of the united states, in other words, when he had the

biggest mega phone in the world, and he used that megaphone to lie about a woman who he himself sexually assaulted. >> david k. johnston, it's because he has no self control. i want to play the infamous "access hollywood" tape and how he responded to the tape in the first trial. >> you know, i'm automatically attracted to beautiful. it's like a magnet. i don't even wait. when you start, they let you do it. you can do anything. grab them by the [ bleep ]. you can do anything. >> that's true with stars. >> true with stars that they can grab women by the [ bleep ]? >> well, if you look over the last million years, i guess, that's been largely true. not always, but largely true. unfortunately or fortunately. >> you consider yourself to be a star? >> i think you can say that, yeah. >> the mind reels, david.

>> well, i think donald actually has a strategy here with his doubling, tripling, quintupling down on his attacks on e. jean carroll. i think he's hoping the jury awards far more than $10 million. then he can go out and say see, it's further evidence the system is against you. he can say it's a new york jury, which is code for, they're not christian and they're not white. and that will appeal to his base, but it won't broaden his support, which is what he needs. but donald here doesn't expect to ever pay this, just as he doesn't believe he'll ever go to jail. doesn't mean that in his jumbled mind he's also not terrified. he is. but i think his goal here is get an enormous award from this jury so that he can use it to stir up his base. >> lisa, you're nodding. is that what it appeared as you watched the antics of not just him but his lawyers that it's designed to provoke this judge

and jury to make a giant award? >> yes and no. joy, i think they know that a massive award is coming. i don't think they're purposely trying to provoke the judge. what i'm nodding in response to is i share david's belief they are deeply scared about this verdict. the question is why. it's about how much cash donald trump has. today, in addition to excerpts from his testimony previously in this case, they also played excerpts from the deposition he cave in the new york attorney general's civil fraud case. in that deposition from april of last year, donald trump goes on and on about his brand value, about the value of his properties, about his portfolio, and at one point says i have over $400 million in cash. let's work backwards. we know the attorney general has asked for more than $370 million in disgorgement in that civil fraud case. i believe here we could be looking at a high eight-figure or even in excess of $100

million in a total verdict. that's if you look at the compensatory damages for the damage to her reputation as well as the pain and suffering which is a part of compensation to e. jean carroll for her injuries and then you think about the punitives which is what is it going to take to make him shut up and stop, i believe this jury could award somewhere in the high eight figures to over $100 million. of course, those two numbers together, those are more than the $400 million in cash that donald trump famously bragged that he had. if he has to liquidate things to be able to pay damages ipboth cases, that's a situation that leaves him and his aides fearful, even though they are pretending they are not. >> we know that he engaged in let's just say hyperbole about his wealth, david. does he have the money to pay a six-figure award? >> well, donald's finances have always been a lot of smoke and mirrors. while he testified he had over $400 million cash, i don't think you can go to the bank with that. and donald further will believe

in his own mind that i can stall and delay forever in paying this award. i'll come up with one way or another to do it. that's what was taught to him. attack law enforcement or anyone who comes after you. never admit a mistake, and delay, delay, delay. >> is there a way the court can make him pay? >> yes, there is, and yes, judge kaplan will. donald trump has these two big things going on. campaigning for president and also has four criminal prosecutions and all of this civil litigation. we think of those as different things. donald trump thinks of them as the same. he turns his trials into campaign rallies, but guess what, at the end of the day, it's the judge who says this is a court of law. judge kaplan himself, he runs a tight ship. one example, trump's spokesman, his cell phone went off in court today in the courtroom, the judge kicked him out of the courtroom. if there's a way to make him

way, however millions, judge kaplan will find it. >> one parenthetical, ron desantis who loved trump so much and pretended to run against him, he's now saying he'll veto a bill to have florida pay his legal bills. the plot thickens. lisa reuben, thank you. paul and david are sticking around. up next on "the reidout," all the pred's men are going to prison. former white house adviser peter navarro becomes the latest trump ally measured for an orange jump suit, because when congress asks you to come testify, you're supposed to say yes. "the reidout" continues after this. is

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and another one quite possibly very likely bites the dust. today, another key trump ally, peter navarro, was sentenced tafour months in prison for criminal contempt of congress. with federal prosecutors saying he thumbed his nose at the house committee investigating the january 6th attack. navarro was convicted on two counts for refusing to testify and to provide documents to the committee. he wouldn't speak to the committee but he had no problem appearing on television. he's a trump guy, after where, where he joined ari melber on this very network to describe his plans to challenge the 2020 election results. >> the remedy was for vice president pence as the quarterback in the green bay sweep to remand those votes back to the six battleground states. >> do you realize you're

describing a coup? >> no. >> before all of this happened, paul, peter navarro was a regular economist. he was a business school professor, get rich quick guru, former peace corps member, former democrat. he then decides to throw his whole life away because he wouldn't testify before congress. please explain to the audience and anyone who might want to try this at home, why you would go to jail for four months for not testifying before congress? >> first, you have to understand how buck wild peter navarro's conduct was around six, which is why the house wanted him to testify. he devised this bizarre plan called the green bay sweep. he and steve bannon would try to pressure all these republicans. >> again, he's a economist. >> clearly, he doesn't know anything about constitutional law. the other part was to pressure vice president pence to tell the big lie. so he's talking about all this

stuff, to rolling stone magazine, on tv, even writes a book about it. but he won't testify to the house. he calls the house january 6th committee terrorists. he says it's a kangaroo court, and that's what gets him his big fat conviction. he gets two counts of contempt of court, and today he was sentenced to four months in prison. >> there is a pattern, david, of people buying trump's bs and liberating themselves of their freedom and of their money. i rewatched this old documentary yesterday, actually quite good, called trump, what's the deal? it was made in 1991, about the boom/bust cycle, the mafia stuff, the racism, but the main point that came through is he got away with lying for so long, because people believed his bs. here is a clip of it, about trump tower and its million-dollar apartments. take a listen. >> what about the apartments?

and $1 million for two bedrooms they're some of the most expensive in the city. trump boasts they are the best. >> the base molding is the cheapest, it's what housing projects get. the kitchens, if i was in a housing project, where would have had a better built kitchen. the kitchens were -- i have never seen more sloppily installed and more cheaply built kitchen cabinets. all of my clients rip them out. >> people sued him over the apartments. the trump tower was built, from "the new york times," the trump tower was built i 58 floors. mr. trump later explained because there was a soaring atrium and floors at the bottom, he could not see a reason not to list the first floor as the 30th floor. he literally lied about the height of his building and the quality of his apartments in trump tower. why do people believe him? >> well, we shouldn't.

and the person who made that film, i was one of the handful of people who saw it before donald trump killed it with threats of litigation. so nobody saw it for 30 years. which is what donald did all the time. i can't tell you how many times he's called me to yell at me he's going to sue me, which he never has. but peter navarro, you know, there are orthodox economists, and then there's people way out in pluto land like peter navarro and their economic theories. really strange stuff. and this just demonstrates that when trump says i only hire the best people, i only appoint the best people, they're only the best people in terms of i'll go to jail for you, donald. that's how much i think of you. >> it's true. i mean, the number of people who, paul, have thrown their lives away for him is actually remarkable. and we were talking during the break about the fact that the ordinary joes end up straight to jail. >> yeah. >> but the rich ones like giuliani or people like steve

bannon can find a way to maneuver and stay away and don't seem to ever pay for their crimes, but it is a nonzero number of people who seem to be willing to literally throw their lives away for this guy. it's strange. >> they have to make this calculation, are they more afraid of donald trump or more afraid of going to prison. a lot of people choose going to prison. it's bizarre. >> let's talk about the other case. this is the case about whether or not he lied about his businesses. this is the one that could actually get him to be barred from doing business in the state of new york forever. i want to play a little bit about what he said about his brand and how he priced his business based on it. take a look. >> my most valuable asset, i didn't even include on your statement. and that's the brand. i mean, i became president because of the brand. okay. i became president. i think it's the hottest brand in the world. if i wanted to show you a good statement, i would have added

maybe $10 billion or something for the brand. >> i mean, he's right that he became president because of his brand. other than new yorkers who knew he was bs'ing, the rest of the country kind of revered this guy. especially through the 'yalths. that's why he's president. in that case, though, is that an argument that's going to have any weight with the judge who gets to decide? >> yeah, it will support the judge finding that trump was very involved in the valuation and also that he wasn't honest. trump is basically saying he left out stuff. again, that's not true, but again, it shows his not criminal intent because this is a civil was, but it shows he is not on the up and up. >> what happens to him mentally? you're not a psychiatrist, david, but you know him. if he is in fact even aside from the settlement that tish james could get, six figure settlement, if he's barred from doing business in new york ever again? >> he was barred briefly, and that was held off because the

proceedings were still under way. he will be barred from doing business. doing business is a privilege. a corporation, even an llc, is a creature of state that you have the privilege of running, but you have to follow the rules. and trump has always just ignored the rules. claiming, for example, his golf course in westchester county was worth as little as $1.3 million. that his nearby mansion and grounds were worth $219 million when a house in this country had never sold for $100 million. there's just no limit to donald's making stuff up, because that's who he is. unfortunately in a court of law, that doesn't fly. >> i guess the question a lot of people would ask is how in the hell has he gotten away with it for so long. that's the million dollar -- maybe the $243 million question. >> i think because donald, joy, i think because donald was not a really big developer.

he wasn't that important. >> he wasn't important enough. >> oh, to be a rich white billionaire in the united states of america. >> and then become president and have a coup and try to become president again. what a world. paul butler, david k. johnston, thank you. still ahead, believe it or not, there are republican lawmakers and officials who are not fuly surrenders to the cult of trump. speak up. we'll be right back. ya know, if you were cashbacking you could earn on everything with just one card. chase freedom unlimited. so, if you're off the racking... ...or crab cracking, you're cashbacking. cashback on flapjacks, baby backs, or tacos at the taco shack. nah, i'm working on my six pack. switch to a king suite- or book a silent retreat. silent retreat? hold up - yeeerp? i can't talk right now, i'm at a silent retreat. cashback on everything you buy with chase freedom unlimited

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senate republican leader mitch mcconnell has for a long time wanted you to know he really loves ukraine. repeatedly pushing for more and even as america first maga types for more aid even as america first maga types have opposed it. apparently, mitch might not love ukraine enough to push through aid so the country can survive its war with russia if it means taking away donald trump's pet campaign issue, fearmongering about the border. that was the message from mcconnell on wednesday in a closed door meeting where he cast doubt on an emerging deal on border enforcement paired with ukraine aid. telling senators linking the two issues could sink ukraine aid all together. first reported by punch bowl news, quote, mcconnell referred to donald trump as the nominee, and noted the former president

wants to run his 2024 campaign centered on immigration and said we don't want to do anything to undermine him. that unsurprisingly set off all kinds of confusion among senators and mcconnell reversed himself today, telling senators he backs pairing border aid with ukraine, and telling reporters trump's opposition to the deal is not anything new. whatulse isn't new is the bottom line is mitch mcconnell might like ukraine, but he loves power more. which means being obedient to trump, who has been pressuring republican senators to kill the deal. in the hopes trump will win, carry republican senate candidates with him, and sweep mitch back to majority leader. so no, it's also not shocking that he's throwing ukraine and the border crisis under the bus for trump, since we all know it took him about 30-odd seconds from saying trump provoked the mob on january 6th to whipping against convicting him in a senate impeachment trial while

saying this immediately after. >> trump's actions preceded the riot were a disgraceful, disgraceful dereliction of duty. there's no question, none, that president trump is practically and morally responsible for provoking the events of the day. >> never mind that more than a year later, it was revealed in a book that mcconnell had said of trump's behavior that day, quote, if this isn't impeachable, i don't know what is. mcconnell is just one of many supposedly normie republicans when know trump well. they know he's dangerous and have told any number of people so, but have stayed on the sidelines when it matters. folks like his former chief of staff, john kelly, former secretary of state, rex tillerson, or former defense secretary james mattis who have been mostly awol this election season. joining me, stuart stevens,

senior adviser to the lincoln project. make it make sense. these people know trump is dangerous, but they want him to be president. >> you know, this is extraordinary. and i don't think it's an exaggeration to say we shouldn't ask ourselves again how 1930s germany happened. not that the same results are going to end, but this is people who are deliberately doing something they know is evil, in the pursuit of power. and there's all sorts of rationalizations they come up with. what mitch mcconnell says is exactly what the german aristocrats who made a deal with hitler said. we have lost touch with the working class. we need someone like adolf hitler or donald trump who can speak to these people, and they will keep us in power. and we'll be able to control them. that's what they all thought. but now, mitch mcconnell knows he can't control donald trump. i mean, i don't know what line anyone expects him to cross in policy when he, as you pointed out, he instigated a riot that

had people come into their workplace and try to kill them. kill them. so let's forgive that and look the other way and accept that's part of the price of doing business with this guy, i just don't know where else it goes. it's an extraordinary disgrace. it's a historic legacy item that they're dealing with here. this is how mitch mcconnell is going to be remembered, if the republican party is the party that sells out ukraine, it will be generational in its impact. >> they're out there saying slava ukraine, but he's like, f the ukrainians. but it's not just him. you have got -- there are people who have said -- let me tell you three of them. james mattis, in bob woodward's book, says the president has no moral comps. he's dangerous, unfit. john kelly, he's an idiot. he's gone off the rails. we're in crazy town. 2018 interview, rex tillerson, i would have to say to him, mr. president, i understand what you want to do but you can't do it that way. it violates the law.

none of these people have come out publicly, they're not over television saying please do not elect this guy. they're not backing nikki haley. all the rich people would get their money with her, but she ain't him. >> yeah, look, i don't understand it. i think part of the problem here is maybe the difficulty that we have with the unimaginable and that it's difficult to imagine. and i think that people keep believing this is going to be some reversion to normality and some standard that is going to uphold the republican party. if you look at all these donors behind nikki haley, they really want to sort of forget the trump era. they want to go back to sort of a pre-trump, can that world doesn't exist anymore. you have to live in the world that you're living in. and we're sort of in this slow motion munich appeasement moment, and i find it just extraordinary that the core of the republican party, if nothing else, was its opposition to the

soviet union and defined by ronald reagan standing in front of the wall, saying tear down this wall. now the pro-putin movement in america is in the republican party, most conservative element. it's just extraordinary. >> yeah. >> and it's a reason why if you support democracy, there's really only one pro-democracy participaty in america now, the democratic party. it's that simple. nothing else really matters. that's why people like myself that spent a lot of years working in the republican party, we're actively supporting president biden and doing so enthusiastically and giving it everything we can. that's what we do at the lincoln project. >> i think it's pretty clear, i said on the show yesterday, the three choices whether you love the choices you have or not are autocracy, trump. oligarchy, nikki haley, who is big money people walking, and biden. and let me play two people who are strongly opposed to trump and say the same things you say,

except the last part. they're not supporting biden. here they are. liz cheney and mitt romney. >> that is so cynical and irresponsible, and you know, surprising, frankly. we all know how dangerous the situation is at the border. the republican leader to be saying well, we're not going to take action because trump doesn't want us to, that just confirms what everybody's frustrations are about politics today. and it is just really, really cynical and sad that that's the position they're taking. >> i think the border is a very important issue for donald trump. and the fact that he would communicate to republican senators and congresspeople that he doesn't want us to solve the border problem because he wants to blame biden for it is really appalling. >> they still sound like, as you said, they're talking about the

bush era. have they not met mitch mcconnell. he said our top political priority in 2010 is to deny president obama a secon term. they live in a party where the republican nationally committee is weighing a resution to just declare trump a winner. >> i know both of these people pretty well, i have worked with them closely. as we say in vermont, let's see how this sugars out. when donald trump becomes a nominee and it's a straight-up choice, i don't think the problem is going to be what liz cheney or mitt romney are doing. i think they're going to do the right thing here. just think, mitt came out in the spring of '16 and denounced trump. and i don't think it's an exaggeration to say he was surprised that so few people followed him. and he was the first senator ever in the history of the united states to vote to impeach a member of his own party.

and you know, i think he goes to bed at night and he sleeps well. he's been threatened, as has liz cheney. they have both received serious physical threats and dealt with it, but they're examples of quiet courage. i think they'll end up doing the right thing for america. this is not about donald trump. it's really about who we are as a country. the president expressed that in one of his most powerful speeches. this is a moral test for the country. and you know, i think the path for biden's re-election is looking clearer and clearer. you had recent polls that shows biden's approval ratings in new hampshire and pennsylvania are at 38% and he's winning by nine points. i think you're going to see that more and more as the choice becomes more apparent. >> it's going to be a very interesting test for this country, whether or not people are willing to elect somebody who is 91 counts in as an accused criminal and maybe gets convicted, whether they're good

with that, and will put that man back in the white house. stuart stevens, always a pleasure. coming up, a new report provides a closer look at the post-roe realities that would be shocking if they weren't so easily predictable and preventable. more next.

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there are the story about women being left to nearly die in parking lots before they will be treated for anabortion. stories of little girls who are raped butenied abortion care in their home state. and then there are other stories of women who follow the new rules but are still denied an abortion. those stories are ghastly enough, but yesterday, we got yet another barbaric reminder of how atrocious this new america is for women. cording to research published in the journal of the american medical association, 64,565 pregnancies have been caused by pe in the 14 states where abortion is banned. the 14 states arealabama, as, idaho, kentucky, louisiana, mississippi, missouri, north dakota, oklahoma, south dakota, tennessee, texas, west virginia, and wisconsin. that means that roughly 65,000 women have been forced to bring to term a child born from a brutal assault.

children, i should note, who if they're poor, most of those states refuse to offer food assistance or access to medicaid under obamacare. you see, republicans and their forced birth activists don't care about the victims of rape or incest or their children. instead, they fantasize, they'll just end rape. >> rape is a crime. and texas will work tirelessly to make sure that we eliminate all rapists from the streets of texas by aggressively going out, arresting and prosecuting them and getting them off the streets. goal number one in the state of texas is to eliminate rape so no woman, no person will be a victim of rape. >> as you can imagine, that's nearly impossible. on average, there are roughly 3,0 reported cases of rape and sexual assault each year. and according to this new data, governor abbott has clearly

failed to eliminate the rapists because texas saw an estimated 26,313 rape related pregnanes during the 16 months after the state outlawed all abortions. with no exceptions for survivors of rape or incest. joining me is dr. samuel dockman, one of the researchers who calculated the data. he's also the medical director of planned parenthood montana and a plaintiff in several lawsuits challenging abortion restrictions in montana. doctor, thank you for being here. everything about this report was alarming. but one of the most alarming things was how you all got to the 64,000 number. you started with this huge universe of cases. you used bureau of justice statistics data on criminal victimization and uniform crime reports from the fbi and looked at the vaginal rapes of women in 14 s aged 15 to 45, and you arrived at approximately 520,000 rapes. how did you get from that to the

final number? >> thank you, joy. i just want to acknowledge this is an incredibly challenging topic to talk about and really appreciate you taking it seriously. we know that sexual assault is incredibly common. half a million rapes of women in the 14 states that banned abortion and of those, more than 60,000 pregnancies is what we estimate. we make those estimations using the best available data from the cdc and prior peer reviewed research. >> and you >> and, you have dealt with these cases yourself. as the npr piece on this case, on this study showed. when a woman comes in, and they have been a victim, they have been victimized this way, and

then they are told that they are pregnant, give me an example of some of the ways that they react? >> i mean, just imagine what it took for that woman to even make it into the clinic. you know, she had to make an appointment, perhaps secretly from her abuser, and disclose this information to a doctor that she just barely met. i mean, the level of courage and bravery to even get that far is, obviously inspiring, and i feel very lucky to be an abortion provider. i work in texas for several years as an abortion provider, and it is just so hard to imagine what survivors of rape and sexual assault go through, in order to get basic medical care. >> what do you make of the laws

in some of these forced birth states, that also require a woman to produce a police report in order to even qualify, and in some cases it still isn't even enough? >> oh it's never enough. in fact, the exceptions that some of these 14 states have are nothing more than rhetoric. they are not providing any meaningful abortion care, because it is not just that they are essentially coerced into reporting the rape teulon forsman, which of course many choose not to do for completely understandable reasons. but then they would have to find an abortion provider willing to do an abortion, in a state like texas that is impossible, and even in a state like idaho, which is next to me over here in montana. there are no abortion providers in idaho, even though the steak technically has an exception for rape. so the rape exceptions are

completely meaningless when it comes, when it comes to actually protecting survivors. >> what would happen if these abortion bans became national law? >> i mean you know, i don't even want to think about. but we know that many, many women and pregnant people are traveling from states with abortion bans to states with abortion access. i teach in places like that all the time in my practice. if they weren't able to do that, i mean what you would see is even more of a catastrophe for women across this country. >> indeed, there would be no free states left. doctor samuel -- thank you for the work that you do, and thank you for spending some time with us this evening. >> joy, it's really a pleasure, thank you. >> thank you. and still ahead, biden deploys cia director william burns to the middle east, in a fresh attempt to cement a deal on the

release of israeli hostages, before gaza is entirely wiped out. more next. more next.

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making a new push to help negotiate a potential hostage deal. sources tell nbc news that ca director bill burns is set to meet with qatar's prime minister, and israel's massage director this weekend, to try to secure the release of the more than 100 hostages still

being held in gaza, including as many as six americans. it comes amid growing tensions between qatar and israel, after leaked comments surfaced a prime minister benjamin netanyahu allegedly disparaging qatar's role as a mediator with hamas. the country official wrote on x that they were appalled by the alleged remarks, adding that if they were found to be true, netanyahu would only be obstructing and undermining the mediation process, for reasons that appear to serve his political career. meanwhile, here in the u.s., there has been growing outrage over that video that we showed you yesterday, of a man in gaza being shot and killed while he and others walking down the street, of the designated safe zone, wearing and waving a white flag. during a press briefing yesterday, reporters grilled the state department deputy spokesman about the incident. >> i wonder what your response to that, is and whether you think from watching that video, whether that potentially represents a war crime? >> i have seen that footage,

but i am not going to comment on the specifics around that, given that i am not aware of the full circumstances on the ground. >> given that you boldly support idf operations, would you support an israeli investigation of what happened in that video? when they're waving a white flag, that represents no threat. >> that is for the idf to undertake, and determine based on the circumstances of that siatn. >> and as the death toll in ga surpasses 25,700, according to the palestinian health ministry. tomorrow, judges at the international court of justice will respond to south africa's request for an interim ruling on its genocide case against israel. the court will not rule on the core question of whether israel is committing genocide, that verdict could take years. but it will rule on the emergency measures request by south africa to restrain israel's military operation in gaza. we will be keeping a close eye on that story, and bring you more tomorrow. and that is tonight's o