the way to the movies. if she had lost control of her suv on the freeway. and not the local street. >> high-speed impact on the highway, the coroner and the pathologist probably would not have looked any further than blunt force trauma from the automobile incident. in any way it could've been a perfect crime. >> but yaz hadn't plotted the perfect crime, as they saw it. he killed, he ran, and he was a tenacious lawman as they saw it. he will be eligible for parole after serving 20 years. >> that's all for this edition of dateline. i'm andrea canning, thanks for watching! good morning, welcome to this saturday edition of morning joe: weekend. it's time for a cup of coffee. as we go through another wild week in politics with major developments from the campaign trail, to capitol hill. let's dive right into some of

the top stories. >> donald trump got out there and threw a temper tantrum. [applause] >> he pitched a fifth, he was insulting and doing what he does. but i know that is what he does when he is insecure. when he is threatened. and he should feel threatened, without a doubt. it also goes back to why i continued to push for mental competency test for anyone over the age of 75. [applause] but >> so he got upset and he said he would take one, and challenge me to one and he would beat me. maybe he would, maybe he wouldn't. but what i said is, if that is the case, get on a debate stage and let's go. [applause] >> bring it donald show me what you got. >> reporter: why is donald trump scared? he's petrified, to get on a

debate stage with a woman. he looks down on women so much. i don't understand, if she -- what did he say she is stupid, she is this and that. if that is the case, is it because he is old and he thinks he is old and he thinks that he's losing his mind, he's afraid he's going to confuse her for nancy pelosi? why is trump scared to death of nikki haley? >> i think because nikki haley's right there, just waiting to see what shoe drops. to see what happens. to an extent, what nikki haley represents is the last best hope for the republican party, if all of a sudden donald trump is taken off the stage, because of his legal problems. i think that is right there in his head. >> but he is scared to debate,

he does not think, he doesn't think he can, or his campaign people are like, if we let him out on the stage in front of a teleprompter any confuses nikki and nancy pelosi, barack obama 's president. he thinks he ran against him and beat him. they are horrified of the prospects of donald trump on a debate stage with nikki haley. i guess they don't think he is mentally fit? >> think about when is the last time you saw donald trump have to perform on his feet. meaning take a question from a voter, debate someone, or do something wearing it to be premiered and react to something. they don't put him in those situations anymore. when you stand in front of an adoring crowd in vomit conspiracy theories, and confusion accuracy pelosi and nikki haley, that is not acting on your feet, that's giving a speech. they don't want him in those scenarios.

why not go to charleston, columbia, south carolina? have a debate with nikki haley? i want to point out last night may seem like a small distinction different from what we saw in new hampshire a couple nights ago, nikki haley walked on the stage and started going after donald trump. those comments were at the top of her speech. where previously they were apologetic frankly, when we saw her in new hampshire in the came very late in the speech. i served in his administration, i was proud, but chaos things to follow him. now she mocked onstage took the mic went after him. we will see, fundraising has been for her in the last 24 hours, since that resulted in new hampshire where she came in second. she raised 1 million dollars, from 200,000 the campaign says, separate donors and all 50 dates, 95 200 bucks are left. these are not the major donors. the campaign also says haley will bill in new york early next week for several wall street fund-raisers.

that news is clearly gotten under the skin of donald trump who now is threatening to blacklist all donors to nikki haley. trump posted on social media, anyone making a contribution to haley will be quote, permanently barred from the maga camp, we will block them and not accept them because we put america first. haley responded, donate here let's go providing a link for her camp teen fundraising page. george conway, you do see fear in the eyes of donald trump in that speech. the most ungracious victory speech we have ever seen after winning new hampshire. just grievance ridden, going after nikki haley again and again. maybe he shouldn't be, but he appears afraid of her? >> he absolutely is. this is part and parcel of what i'd like to talk about, his pathological narcissism, and his sociopathy.

people like donald trump know that they are not what they pretend to be. he talks about being a stable genius because he knows he's neither stable nor ingenious. he's been doing that for years. he knows deep down he's deteriorating under the pressure of the legal cases and as a result of his advanced age. kudos to nikki haley for finally going after him in the way he needs to go in a way that people need to go after him, including the biden campaign in the fall. you need to needle him. the campaign has to be as much a psychological operation against donald trump's empty brain as it must be attempt to persuade voters. the two go hand in hand. you poke trump, you make him behave crazily. then you point out the crazy. and then you point that out to the voters. it is a cycle. it is really important that she keep doing it i don't think

it's going to and, i think she's done it a little bit too late. but i think it is important that she do. it >> jim cena, you have run presidential campaigns let's get your take on to what hailie needs to do here. she faced third in iowa, second in new hampshire but still 11 points down, she beat polling expectations, but it was still a double digit defeat. new hampshire exposed problems for donald trump but still the primaries his to lose. what sort of shock to you give healy, what should our game plan before the next month? >> i don't give her much, the reason i don't because now we're going to places where there aren't independent and democratic voters who are allowed to be in these primaries, we're gonna go into solid republican states. she's just getting crushed with republican voters. she finally got what she wants, is a one-on-one battle with donald trump. i love her speech yesterday. it's the nikki haley we

should've seen two weeks ago in new hampshire, she's gonna try to get this. she's gonna try to get him on a debate stage. and go right after him, and show his weakness. but she has got to find a way to move republican voters, and i don't see how that's moving forward. i believe we're headed toward a biden trump showdown. the haley experiment is a sideshow. >> willie, i have to say it may be a sideshow, i will tell you though if i were donald trump, the last thing i would want is a governor, a former governor of a state who is a former state legislator who knows that state backwards and forwards, and has 30 days to do what she did last night, campaign day by day by day. raise millions of dollars while she is campaigning day-by-day. everybody thinking this race is

gonna be a 25 75's race, what if it is a lot closer? then where does she go? she goes to michigan. michigan and electric more cut out for her. i will tell you what, there are people of michigan when they hear that donald trump wants the economy to crash? wants the borders to stay open? wants to cut peoples health care? promises tax cuts for billionaires. he's bragging about terminating roe v. wade. again, even in a republican primary those things are going to matter. >> she has got a bunch of time, she is a lot stunt against her. interesting that the former governor of the state is the underdog, a huge underdog in her home state. as we were saying yesterday, almost save one, the entire south carolina congressional delegation has rallied around donald trump. she can kind of play this

underdog role as george says, just needle donald trump. he gives you ammunition every day. >> we have lots to get to this hour, morning joe: weekend continues after a short break. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ have you ever wondered what an icon,... a legend,... a legacy,... a pop star,... and a tight end all have in common? they all got this season's updated covid-19 shot to help better protect them against recent variants. got it? ♪♪ ♪♪

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biden, they made the announcement yesterday. they praised biden for his record on unions and joining the picket line last year. he also railed against donald trump for not supporting the uaw. >> in 2019, our members were out there holding the line a gm on a national strike for 40 days. but [applause] >> trump was a sitting president. he said nothing, he did nothing,

not a dam thing. because he doesn't care about the american worker. here is what trump did to help the american auto worker in our 2023 historic standup strike, now that he's running for president. he went to a non-union implant, invited by the boss, and trashed our union. here is what joe biden did during our sound up strike. he heard the call and he stood up and he showed up. [applause] he joined us in solidarity on the picket line for the first time in our nation's history. a sitting president has ever done that. [applause] this choice is clear awe, joe biden bet on the american

worker, we'll john owed trump blamed the american worker. [applause] we need to know who is going to sit in the most powerful seat in the world and help us win as the united working class. so if our endorsements must be earned, joe biden has earned it. [applause] i >> will tell you what willie, but he is tough there. i like to first have a morning joe special, i get shawn fain in there and maybe we need shauna bryant onset. i need that guy on side as well. come on. any set in or threatens him, they regret it. but you know, it is tough. i think about that, they allow

-- wait a second, he is not going to a union plant. are people really that dumb? i'm so glad that union members in wisconsin, michigan, pennsylvania are hearing this. because it is true. joe biden was the first president in history to stand with striking workers. it's pretty remarkable. >> that is what we call a full-throated endorsement from the uaw, it was not a peep or statement. it was robust. that is a big deal. in the state of michigan obviously there's a lot of autoworkers, wisconsin you can move around the midwest, but to have an endorsement that wasn't just sort of yes we like the sky. no this guy literally stood with us on the picket line when we won rights for each other. in a state that could be decided by a few thousand votes when you're talking about michigan, that is a big deal.

>> it's a big deal in the cover of different levels. big deal obviously because of the endorsement and also the way it was framed by the president of the united auto workers. jonathan, i don't know about you. sean o'brien who joe just alluded to head of the teamsters, originally head of the local 25, he is cut from the same cloth as shawn fain. he is not you, don't have to figure out what is a mean by this? when he and shawn fain tell their constituencies, their work is american workers. this guy who you are thinking of voting for, donald trump. this guy who maybe you voted for in 2016, and maybe in 2020. this guy is a fake or. he's after your health plan, after your family's level of affluence. he is not for you. >> the white house desperately wanted this endorsement. it was never a doubt. fain has said privately he

knows some of his members are going to vote for donald trump, the white working class that trump's made a backbone of his coalition. but it's going to matter. when he called donald trump a scab. that is going to resonate. that is going to break through. president biden has offensive himself as the most pro labor president we've ever had. certainly wanted decades. it is all about to our discussion earlier, those three states pennsylvania, wisconsin and wish sicken. it's gonna play well there. not a coincidence that biden is heading to wisconsin today to talk about another issue infrastructure that matters in wisconsin. >> white working class union voters, they vote republican a lot of them in a broken off and voted republican for quite some time. i told the stories where union member told me, hey kid shut up and stop talking about union voters were talking for you. you look at how tough that address is.

you are right, most of the time when union presidents endorsed a candidate they, say okay yes. in this case, man, mike you really did you felt it. just like when sean o'brien was in the senate testifying, you felt it. by the way, maybe we can meet up with him in fenway. just want to walk around and with him. but you felt it. this was real, i'm not just saying. republicans know this to. donald trump did what union workers, did what a scab would do. he lied, pretended he was going to a union shop, while he was doing that, while he was siding with the owners. joe biden on the line with union workers. why does this matter? it matters because i really think for the first time, for the first time in a long time.

you're gonna see a lot of those union workers, who voted against their own interest for cultural reasons, for other reasons. what felt right in their gut. they're gonna see this, they're gonna remember that trump what he did, and they are going to vote democratic again. they are gonna come home. >> up next the washington post explains why when it comes to ron desantis dropping out of the race, the nations gain is florida's loss. s loss i got back to my roots... we come from a long line of cowboys. my grandfather, my great-grandfather, my aunt even rode horses. when i see all of us out here on this ranch, i see how far our legacy can go. (♪♪) the company goes to the first born audrey. the model train set is entrusted to todd.

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goodbye to ron desantis, when i look back on his campaign, the thing i will miss most is that infectious smile of his. ♪ ♪ ♪

[laughter] look at that, pure constipation. >> all right joining us now -- >> i'm telling you this farewell has not been like lu gareth's farewell. it's been tough. really really tough. >> well deserved. the six-week abortion ban. that's driving a lot of it? i do, when i talk to women or talk to them about ron desantis,

as a potential candidate we just interviewed him. it's why didn't you ask him about the six-week abortion ban. who would do a six-week abortion ban? and not have an angry country. >> the interviews that we had when we actually talked policy went deep into policy, you go deep into policy, which reminds me when we talked about it on the show before covid. it reminds me he was sitting 55% approval rating, there are a lot of democrats saying this guy's doing a good job it's interesting how covid was so polarizing and the lane that he's shown in a lot of people are gonna talking about this for sometime. he chose the lane the mega line, that calculation was let's go mega without the baggage that trump has. i still think i never understood why people don't go main street republican. when you're going up against donald trump, i think he

would've had a lot more support. a lot of people maybe not in the early states. but it seems that was the best way forward but who knows? we will never know let's bring in the pulitzer prize rating columnist. your latest column for the washington post, you talk about the fall of ron desantis's campy. you do not give him a fond farewell your piece is titled, the nations gain is florida's loss. >> you say it's hard to see what he might gain from his presidential run, and easy to see what he has lost. his appeal in theory was a somewhat who could deliver on trump's mega policy agenda with all out of trump's baggage. but desantis proved to be an awkward, wooden candidate who struggle to connect. his best weapons of florida had been is blustering belligerence,

he was too timid to use them against trump. as all the failed gop candidates have learned, primary voters don't want new trump, not while trump knew, the trump classic is still available. the nations gain is florida's loss. i fear desantis will continue using the state as a stage to boost his maga profile, just like those awfully high heels on his cowboy boots. i think eugene makes a point. he is very callous, it starts with a six-week ban through lot of other things we can talk about as well. you notice joe, he immediately endorsed donald trump. he wants to continue to use that movement for his purposes in florida. it >> jeanne, here's not guy a guy who is not up for election. if you are ron desantis, you are sitting with a 16% approval rating before covid, and you had democrats saying you are

doing pretty good job on the everglades, doing a good job on the environment, i just don't understand why in the age of trump nobodies figured out that there is a lane a mile wide for a main street top republican. they haven't. nobody's done. it >> nobody is even tried it. that was his lane, he's coming out of florida, the third most populous state in the country. as you said, he had those high approval ratings. he decided to take the mega, trump without the baggage lane and to use florida's kind of a demonstration project for his presidential campaign. yes, first the 15-week abortion ban, then the six-week abortion ban with no exception for rape or incest. which is just, far beyond of

what most people will accept. there is the no say gave ill which led to his absurd crazy war with disney. the states biggest cash cow. there were the standards of learning that he imposed on the schools that say among other things that some enslaved african americans benefited from slavery. >> oh my god. >> he prohibited teaching in the schools that made anybody uncomfortable about race. those standards made me really uncomfortable. he went sort of full maga in that way. he went that way in florida, you see the result. the campaign burned through millions of dollars he didn't even get to new hampshire. he did endorse trump, he did it a bit too grudgingly for donald trump.

he basically said okay, it is clear you want trump. go ahead and vote for him basically. he is not going to get any favors from trump in the future. i fear he's going to go back to florida, i guess he thinks he's got a political future. i'm not sure what that future is. but he is gonna keep it up. i think that is just bad, for the citizens of the third most populous state in the nation. >> he has a choice, and that choices that he's going to be ron desantis post covid. dealing with library books, dealing with history. dealing with these other things. things that aren't going to help in the long run. then we know what that fates going to be, if he looks over the horizon. we see another trump mob coming

in 2024, there is going to be at some point a reckoning of the republican party. they're gonna want to have mainstream republicans again you believe unbalanced budgets. who support free trade, who support less spending. who support a foreign policy that actually protects american interests across the globe and freedom. but, that is a choice he has to make. i'm not so sure he's going to go in that direction. >> first to jean's point about dissent is not receiving much warmth from trump, trump made a big show of saying he's gonna retire his nickname in the promptly used again. we should know that desantis is yet to appear with trump and an event in the others, doug burgum, tim's got have all been with trump in new hampshire the last couple days. eugene, you talk a little bit about what desantis's future

is. i want to go deeper on that. it was pretty transparent in region days, his aides talking to people in planting quotes with supporters how much people are coming up to them and saying we really like governor desantis is not his time yet, 2024 still trump. but hey 2028 could be desantis's moment. he has to make political choices between now and then. my question to you as, it is rare to see candidacy implode with such swiftness and such vigor, as ron desantis is dead, to the point where i wonder if he's so badly damaged that rezantsev him self up for 2028 but rather this moment has passed him by his political future may be coming to an end? >> i think that's entirely possible. i really do. first of all, he is in office till 26. but he can't run again. i think he's term limited in florida. what is he going to do?

people are gonna remember this campaign. he did leave an impression unfortunately it was a really awful impression that a lap. as this awkward guy, you saw the smile. you saw a sort of inability to connect on a human level. that is not good for him i. think that's one of the people, the things people are gonna remember. his inability to choose any sort of lane to run in that made any sense. i think people will remember that. i just don't know where he goes from here. i really don't. >> eugene robinson thank you so much. a fond farewell melt, and a bit of a tier. >> i've been inconsolable, i really have been.

[laughter] ron we hardly knew. >> coming up what some of donald trump so called best people really think about him. that is ahead on morning joe weekend. when weekend. when ♪ ♪ c'mon, bear. ♪ ♪ ♪ you don't...you don't have to worry... ♪ ♪ be by your side... i'll be there... ♪ ♪ with my arms wrapped around... ♪ choose advil liqui-gels for faster, stronger and longer-lasting relief than tylenol rapid release gels because advil targets pain at the source of inflammation. so for faster pain relief, advil the pain away.

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publisher of co-host of the focus group podcast, executive director of the republican accountability project. sarah longwell, latest piece

for the new york times entitled, what 17 of trump's best people said about him. sarah, i would say these republicans these house republicans we are just talking about, they are mini trump's. but they are doing massive damage to the process, to the republican party. to the ability to get anything done, even things they want. tell us about your piece, who did you hear from? >> what we did we went back and compiled all of the members of trump's cabinet who had spoken out against him. this is on precedent it. to have so many senior officials come out and say things like, this man is a danger to democracy. he is responsible for the attack on the capitol. i think that you guys would agree with me when i say, one of the big afflictions of the republican party over the last many years has been, a problem of silence. an unwillingness to speak up. unwillingness to vote for

impeachment after january six. people of allowed donald trump to essentially get, republicans especially, by not speaking up against him, they allowed him to get away with things that are unspeakable attacks on our democracy. i wanted to really use this as an opportunity, both demonstrate how unprecedented was. but also use it as a call to action. as we go into this general election donald trump is going to be the republican nominee. regardless of what happens in new hampshire. he's gonna be the nominee. a lot of these folks who have spoken out, and even written books are done profiles in the atlantic. they did it a long time ago, after january six. i think there needs to be concerted and sustained effort of a lot of these people to speak out, going forward and tell the american people just how dangerous donald trump is. they worked up close with him they saw the things that alarmed them, that they've talked about just a little bit.

they're gonna have to -- there's this idea from them that can't make a difference to voters. if they speak out donald trump just get stronger. that is true of the base of the republican party. it is not true of swing voters. one of the things that, i think people don't understand. i've seen mark kelly quoted, i spoke out i said something, it's a half a day news story. i think that that, true with the base. not true with the swing voters. not true as we go into the election, people haven't been paying attention to the election. average voters don't read the atlantic. no offense to the land, i love it. your average voter does not read it. you have to go out in the sustained way and say things. a lot of the folks that we haven't heard as much from, are the people who are the generals. you're jim madison's, they will make a difference to people if they say something. my hope is that they hear this call, these are people of

defended democracy overseas, they have sent soldiers into battle. my ask is that they defend democracy once again, by telling people what they saw in the danger that donald trump poses. that would be a real service to the country. >> so so many served in uniform resist talking politics, but it seems like it could be the exception. to your point, there was a lot of weight, a lot of importance in the words of those who testified before the january six committee who are republicans, who are there close who saw trump's behavior that day. that seemed to breakthrough. i assume that's a fear here as well. those who are next to trump, not just on january 6th, but throughout his term and can speak credibly as what he would do next. that's who you want to hear from, between now in november. >> that is absolutely right. the people who served with trump, when people told their

stories. when cassidy hutchinson, and other brave people who worked for donald trump came out and made the case that he was unfit, and said what they saw that. he didn't do anything about january six. that had an enormous impact. i do think that for someone like jim mattis, or some of the other generals. they may tell themselves, it is not my job is somebody who is in the military to get involved in politics. understand that, but i think when you take a senior rule in an administration. a republican president. you've engaged in politics. i give them all the credit, i think they join the administration because they wanted to be the adults in the room. they knew donald trump was dangerous back then, or at least unfit. they wanted to be there to serve the country, i think they did it all for the right reasons. but they have to serve the country again by saying what they saw. we know because they give blind

quotes to background on people who are writing books, they said things once or twice. we know they think he's dangerous. there's people like mark esper have been out there saying don trump is a threat to democracy. one of the things that is the fear here, you need to speak with one voice. there is safety and numbers. there's amplification numbers. you can't have one person here or there, they get communicated for the party, called ronna. they do what they did to liz cheney. you need to come together and say loudly, relentlessly in a concerted way so that swing voters hear it. there is already, as you can see, donald trump owns the base of the republican party and, the base is quite large. large enough to win any primary. but there have been people that he has been alienating, republicans that trump is alienating for years. that is who, they are still republicans. that is who these people need to speak to, to help them understand that it's time to

abandon the trump version of the republican party. >> we have lots to get to this hour, morning joe weekend continues after a short break. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ when you shop wayfair, you get big deals for your home - every day. so big, we'll have you saying... am i a big deal? yeah you are, because it's a big deal, when you get a big deal. wayfair deals so big that you might get a big head. because with savings so real - you can get your dream sofa for half the price. wayfair. it's always a big deal. ♪ wayfair you've got just what i need ♪

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make more of what's yours. democrats shocked the political

world, complaining this close to maintaining the majority, out by just five seats. all those races decided by less than 1%. democrats lost those five seats by compound total of a 6700 votes, after more than 100 million ballots cast. progressive grassroots organizations like swing left, gearing up for november to ensure there are no new near misses like those. the group releasing a list 12 states is focusing on to win back the house, and hold on the senate in the white house. joining us now on behalf of swing left, golden globe winning actor and actress kevin bacon and kyra sedgewick.

good morning guys good to see you. we can dig into the restaurant scene layer, i know you are deep in conversation about that. tell us about swing left, this is not a new organization came to be in the early days of the trump, what was the impetus behind it and one of the goals kind at this time? >> i think i learned about swing left in 2017 when i was feeling a lot of hopelessness and despair around what happened in 2016, i feel to a certain extent i was living in a dream state of being asleep, a lot of democrats felt that way. suddenly here we were in the situation that we were in. i became very excited and hopeful about joining an organization that did all the math for me, and helped me to figure out the flip-able, winnable seats in the 2018 midterms. swing left dot org is an

incredible organization that helps me to turn my despair into active-ism and hopefulness. they've got a plan for the election, a lot of you said a lot of the seats are gonna come down to a couple thousand votes. we really need all hands on deck here. we are excited to talk about how people can really dig in. >> kevin we can talk about the specific races in a minute, but you talk about that feeling of despair. a lot of americans still feel. they disengage from the process in some ways, you guys are making the case for the opposite. >> that is exactly right. i feel the same thing, i get up in the morning sometimes they read the paper and i read, and i go akash, i don't know what to do about this feeling. some time the impetus is step back and say i can't do anything. but you know what, this is our country this is our democracy, these are the things we believe in. if you get in any way active as

swing left will very easily steer you in that direction. you will feel better. you will. because you feel like you are taking control over your future basically. that is what they are so great about. swing left.org makes it easy. >> kira let's talk about the states that matter this time around, and what this organization is trying to do. the house in the senate to different, it was blue states, it was new york that left democrats down last time. if the democrats are gonna keep the senate, it's a couple of red states, montana ohio. >> if i knew the answer to that question. >> what will the organization? do >> what they are really great at, is learning and doing all the math about what the actual winnable seats are.

they help people they, direct volunteers. they direct money on volunteers. they trained volunteers to knock on doors, due letter writing campaigns. and do phone banking. all of that flash on flesh, person to person talking, and encouraging people to get out and vote. hopefully we'll be the key to winning some of these elections. >> if you get out there, not just in your neighborhood, your own neighborhood, but anywhere in the country. you are bound to encounter someone in conversational raise the following issue with you, i think we are losing our country. when you listen to them, they have a legitimate concern. one of the elements of swing left, i'm looking at the one sheet on it. it is a lead already campaign that you begin. letter writing from, the civil war through vietnam, a personal

letter was it normally impactful, both emotionally to the recipient, as well as, the letter itself. how is that working? how do you do it? how do you select to send letters to? who writes the >> letters. we have had letter writing parties at our house. we invite friends over. people, extended people. we get a couple of cheap bottles of wine or coffee or whatever, cookies, and we have a box of letters that are addressed in, you know, in these battleground states to democratic voters. you write something personal. it's really satisfying because it is, as you pointed out, him on paper, licking the envelope, putting it in the box and sending it to somebody, something they can hold in their hands. very different than a robocall.

very different then the sea of emails telling us about gloom and doom. you can say, i am sending you this because i care about democracy. >> this is why vote, you know? and they make it so easy on the site, because they will help you to download all of the letters, do whatever, and then you sign, and then they also have all of the addresses. they make it incredibly easy for you. so it's really not hard. it's also a communal thing. it helps people to feel like they are in a community. if we all feel so alone and isolated in our own fear in her own worry, we are gonna feel frozen. but if we come together and have these communal experiences trying to effect change, nothing in this country every changes without people power movement. it's all about people. >> and but wait, there's more.

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a, look at the second hour of morning joe: weekend. let's dive right and with this week's top stories. >> negotiators looking for this bipartisan bill to address the southern border foreign aid say that talks are still on after

minority leader mitch mcconnell appeared to throw cold water on the deal. the kentucky republican reportedly told colleagues in a closed-door meeting on wednesday, they may not want to undermine donald trump on the issue since he wants to run on it. last night, trump encouraged lawmakers to do nothing on the border. to keep the border open. trump quoted them to let fentanyl continue to fly down and let illegal immigrants continue to stream across the border. that is what donald trump said, the republicans are so weak that they are going to do it. they're going to side with fentanyl and illegal immigrants instead of a bipartisan tough war security bill. >> so if anybody on social media wrote in correctly, we are better off not making a deal, even if that pushes our country to temporarily close up for a while, but a handful of republican senators are pushing back and letting trump sink the deal.

take a listen. >> i think borders a very important issue for donald trump. the fact that he would communicate to republican senators and congress people that he doesn't want us to solve the border problem because he wants to blame biden for it is really appalling. the american people are suffering as a result of what is happening at the border, and someone running for president ought to try to get the problem solved as opposed to say hey, save that problem, don't solve it, let me take credit for solving it later. >> i just reject the idea that we should reserve a crisis for a better time to solve it. you know, it's interesting to me is that there are a lot of angry people out there, and that's why the border crisis is the number one issue for borders. and it has the one opportunity to fix it and we don't say, you know, we would love to a fixed, it but it was election season

and so i thought i would wait. >> from my point of view, we need relief today and what we are trying to do will help him if he gets to be president's. i would say to president trump that if we can put this package together the way i hope it falls into place, you will have more tools to secure america than you have ever had. it's not about one president, it's about a system. >> well i register my opinion with my colleagues, i'm registered to our leadership that i don't believe we should take this off the table, certainly not to clear the way for a clean campaign debate season. let's get something consequential done for the american people. that's how you instill trust in government and your elected represens rather them paying fealty to short term considerations. paying fealty to short ter consideratio ns >> i don't know how a bill becomes law. go back to school house rock. if we don't take the

opportunity now, there will be the same policy beginning nexty year. it is a moral for me to think you look the other way because u think this is the linchpin for president trump to win. i do not want to be a part of history that fails democracy, and that's a failure if we don't find a way to fund ukraine and israel. >> good for tom tillis. it is a moral, and he is right, and it is a failure for republicans, and it's immoral he says for republicans to fail ukraine and the fight for freedom, and to fair israel in their fight to defend themselves against terrorists. and of course the united states right to secure its border. we finally have the deal. i mean, go on to capitol hill. i've been asking for the last couple of years, why can we get a deal done? republicans want, this democrats want this, but they were talking past each other. now they are talking to each other, and james lankford, one

of the most conservative republicans on capitol hill from oklahoma says, this is the best bill we can get. john thune, one of the most conservative republicans on capitol hill, says this is the best border security bill we can get. it is the strongest in the generation. they all agree with that, and i agree with tom tillis. this is pathetic. but eugene robinson, you now have donald trump who's admitted in the past two weeks that his goals are number one, and he said this to lewd obscene, number one. he wants the economy to crash. he knows it is going well, he wants joe biden, he said this, he wants joe biden to be herbert hoover managing a depression, which means that he wants the stock market crash, he wants people's retirement funds to burn up, he wants millions of people to lose jobs. that is what he said. i want a depression. i want biden to be herbert

hoover. and then the second thing, and the wall street journal is talking about it right now, they are passing up a chance to secure the border. people, as mitt romney said, are suffering right now. fentanyl, flooding across the border. illegal immigrants streaming across the border. democrats and republicans in the senate, they will have to stop it. house republicans and donald trump won't do it. it is a moral, is it not? >> it is a moral, it is insane, and it shows what has happened to the republican party, it really does. this is not a serious political party anymore. it is a cult, it is a cult of personality around dear leader donald trump, full stop. house republicans are already against this deal. they have been praying for years and years and years, and

good on those senate republicans that we just showed who came out and said, look, this is nuts. we have to pass this, we will never get a deal like this, but let's see how they actually vote. let's see how lindsey graham actually votes when it comes down to it. let's see if mitch mcconnell can actually get this across the finish line. we will see. i just kind of have my doubts right now given what mitch mcconnell said on wednesday about they're not being a path forward, and it is such a illustration of why we have to destroy the republican party in november in order to save it, because look at what has happened to this party. they were offered a deal that they will never get again, a deal that provides tough border security without the perpetual democratic demand that some

democrats really want, a path to citizenship for the undocumented migrants who are already in the country, for the dreamers. there's nothing about that that we know of in this package. they will never get this again, and yet, they are about to snatched defeat out of the jaws of victory in a way that is just deeply unserious and deeply disturbing and bad for the country. >> self destructive. >> as long as donald trump is the cold leader of the republican party, this is where we are going to be. >> to jean's point, it strikes me that this is for all of the t-shirts in the hats, the opposite of america first. they have a moment in a chance here to put america first, to do something about the border, and they're putting donald trump first in this case, but as some of the senators we just heard made very clear, this

actually politically should not be that hard. i understand there are moments they don't wanna cross donald trump on dicey issues because they think their voters will turn on him. their voters want border security. so tom tillis can cross donald trump here and vote for border security and not pay political price for it. it doesn't even make sense to a lot of people watching this, politically, on the policy, it certainly doesn't make sense because this is what they have been asking for for generations. but even politically, they should be an easy one. you could say this time i disagree with donald trump, i think it was a great participant, but we are going to fix the water right now and we have a chance to do it. very strange, but i guess not surprising anymore. >> except it's not what donald trump wants them to do, because he wants them throughout this year to carry on talking about immigration. he can see the numbers to. it consumer confidence in this country is improving, if interest rates start to do better and gas prices are now down about $3 a barrel, $3 a barrel, then some of those economic issues may be off the table, while trump needs

another issue off the table. he needs another issue in a row to whip up his base into a fury against joe biden, and if this is solved by the steal, and potentially the immigration crisis is soft and that goes away. you can't blame the american public for only having a 15% approval rating of congress when it is this blatantly cynical and ineffective. i am reminded again of something the former secretary once said to me. the three biggest problems are russia, china, and its own politics, and this is a clear case of america's own politics getting in the way of doing something that would actually help the country. we are in this kind of unusual situation of democrats actually want to border security and republicans perhaps not so much warning border security, at least for the course of this political campaign. >> even for donald trump, this is shamelessly cynical. just a naked peel to keep it alive politically rather than doing something for the country. we should note though that mitch mcconnell's comments earlier this week caused such a

surge where it seemed like he was getting in on the deal. it's a really push back against that. in fact, mcconnell really hold another meeting with some of his colleagues yesterday and's made it clear that he still does want this. he wants the ukraine deal in exchange for border security. they are saying he was simply acknowledging that trump was playing a role. he was simply being honest about the quandary he and his party were and, but this is not mcconnell himself shifting positions, which i think came a relief to some republicans who started to learn this late last night. the senate minority leader, the power clearly diminished in recent months, still wants to push this forward. so now the question is whether you can get enough votes. certainly tillis, romney, and others have said that they want this to happen. they are putting the responsibility to country over party, but we know, we know the house already stands in opposition, at least a large, portion of it does, the republicans, will there be enough senators who also make that decision to defy mcconnell in favor of trump? >> you have mcconnell, todd young, tom tillis, mitt romney,

kramer, lankford, lindsey. if the people that spoke out for it yesterday vote for it in the senate, you're up to seven, seven republicans right there. they need three more to get to 60. >> what i'm sure they are thinking about, but i wonder about house republicans because not only does this make the republican party look so bad in so many ways, and yet another, like we need more proof the trump sort of has to hold on them, but what are our allies and enemies thinking going with two wars going. that a former president can impact what gets passed in congress. >> what it underlines is the fear that people like richard haass and david ignatius have been bringing to this table over the past year, which is that when you go overseas, they go yeah, america's back for now, but what happens when donald trump's president?

people in davos have already decided trump is going to win, which is great news, because people in davos are always wrong. so great news the trump may not win, but don't tell that to our allies across the world, because right now, that is what they fear. >> but next, we'll talk to michigan governor gretchen whitmer about her plans to take the fight for reproductive rights nationwide. , even days after using. most common side effects were nausea, indigestion, and stomach pain. ask about nurtec odt. (fisher investments) it's easy to think that all money managers are pretty much the same, and stomach pain. but at fisher investments we're clearly different. (other money manager) different how? you sell high commission investment products, right? (fisher investments) nope. fisher avoids them. (other money manager) well, you must earn commissions on trades. (fisher investments) never at fisher investments. (other money manager) ok, then you probably sneak in some hidden and layered fees. (fisher investments) no. we structure our fees so we do better when clients do better. that might be why most of our clients come from other money managers.

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is releasing an ad that focuses on the issue of abortion rights. here is part of it. >> two years ago, i became pregnant with a baby i desperately wanted. during a routine ultrasound, i learned that the fetus would have a fatal condition and never survive. i had to flee my own state to receive treatment. i think donald trump bears an incredible amount of responsibility for these

restrictive laws. we need leaders that will protect our rights and not take them away, and that is joe biden and kamala harris. >> joining us now, democratic governor gretchen whitmer of michigan. she is national co-chair for the biden harris 2024 campaign. thanks so much for being on this morning. we will talk football in just a second, but i want to start with this issue, and that is so serious, and it's not just about reproductive rights and freedom, but literally as daniela has pointed out, and we just saw in that spot, it is about health care. it's about being able to save our life and future fertility in the event of a obstetric emergency. do you think that the strategy will be to try to explain that to voters, to take it beyond the word reproductive rights? it's almost like the right for our lives, right to life for women. >> absolutely, and i would submit that this is not just

playing out in states. this is a national issue. i was asked over the weekend, is this just going to be pertinent and the states that have issues before them at the state level, and i said no, abortion rights are very much at risk in all 50 states. even a state like michigan where we eviscerated the 1931 ban and, without exceptions, we made strides in terms of making the access affordable and easier for women in michigan. that could all be lost if we had a national abortion ban, and there is no question that each of the republican candidatesor president have said that that is something they support. so this isn't over, even in a state like mind where we have made such great strides. >> right, right. you know, your state has made great strides. i'm curious if you are seeing more of an understanding as to what this is about since roe was overturned and since we had some of these high profile cases where women are being asked to believe out in parking

lots and losing their fertility. it goes on and on, the nightmares that women face one abortion health care is not provided for them, because it is not just about getting abortions, it is about getting the care around terminating a presidency, a dnc, all sorts of things that have to do with trying to keep the mother alive, trying not to torture the mother, literally physically and mentally. and i just wonder if you are seeing a deeper understanding among female and male constituents as to what this is about? >> yes, and i can tell you that when we had our opportunity to amend our constitution in michigan last election cycle, we did round tables all across the state and there were moments where women shared incredibly personal, vulnerable moments in their life that were so difficult. i will never forget woman sitting across the table for me and saying, i did not vote for

you last time, i am not a democrat. i'm a republican, but you are the only one fighting for my daughter's rights to make their own decisions about their bodies, and so i'm not just here to talk about this, i'm out knocking doors for the ballot initiative. i'm knocking doors for you. somebody didn't support just four years ago. and so i do think that people understand, this is deeply personal, and no politician should be making that choice for american women. it should be, there's their families, and advice from their health care provider. >> kamala harris is going to be very focused on this, as she hits the campaign trail and already is giving voice to this issue. what is your message for women across the country? we had a joshua pirro on last week, and i kind of love his answer. i think everybody was like, joe biden isn't doing enough, joe biden isn't punching back, and shapiro was like, why did you guys get your butt out there? everybody, isn't this kind of a

moment in history where it's all hands on deck, whether you're talking about abortion or, i don't know, democracy, the constitution, rule of law? >> it has to be all-hands-on-deck, mika. it is hard to believe that we are once again at this dire moment where we have to galvanize everyone to hold on to fundamental rights of voting, fundamental rights to be equal under the law, to make your own decisions about your bodies. things we that have been litigated and secured are very much still at risk, and every one of us has to be a part of that. and so emboldened and excited by what i saw happen in ohio last year. very red state where women were coming from michigan to get this fundamental care. they bucked everyone and leadership and demanded their rights in made their voices heard and loud and clear, but it's not settled. we have more work to do, and everybody has to be a part of

coming out and ensuring that our company does not go backwards. >> yeah, and i think our country is what we need to do to talk about. everybody can play a role. i have to congratulate you on the lions. i didn't watch it all, but joe was screaming a lot in the living room, and so i figure that it was good news. >> oh man, it has been such a great season and football in michigan. we got the national college champions in the university of michigan, and we have the detroit lions, just invigorated to try it in the state of michigan. i've been watching the lions since i was a little kid at the pontiac silver dome, and to see this team and sheila and the work that dan campbell in the whole team has done, it is just phenomenal. >> michigan governor gretchen whitmer, thank you so much for being on today, and congratulations on the lions. we will talk to you again soon further down the campaign trail. >> morning joe: weekend continues after a short break. short break.

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very important issue for donald trump, and the fact that he would communicate to republican senators and congresspeople that he doesn't want us to solve the border problem because he wants to blame biden for it is really appalling. the american people are suffering as a result of what is happening at the border, and someone running for president ought to try to get the problem solved as opposed to saying, hey, save that problem. don't solve it, let me take credit for solving it later. >> from my point of view, we need relief today, and what we are trying to do will help him if he tries to be president. i will say to president trump, if we can put this package together the way i hope it falls into place that you will have more tools to secure america than you've ever had. it's not about one president, it is about a system. >> senators mitt romney and

lindsey graham among the handful of republicans critical of former president trump for trying to kill a bipartisan immigration bill for his own political gain. >> what he said is, let's be very clear about this, and democrats need to be very clear about this, but like they said, like these republican said, donald trump wants to keep the border open. he wants to keep it open for mo fentanyl to flood across and poison and kill americans. he wants to leave the border open for more legal immigrants coming in and not doing it through an orderly process. he is getting in the way of what conservatives have called republicans have called the best border security bill in history. >> one they won't be able to get any other day. >> this is the same guy who also says, along with, let's keep the border open, he saying, let's let the economy get wrecked. >> so i can look good.

>> he is rooting against american. he told lou dobbs, he wants the economy to go into a depression. he wants joe biden to be herbert hoover and not him. and that is what we are talking about, a wrecked economy and open borders. >> joining us now, democratic congressman ruben gallego of arizona. he's a member of that house armed services committee, a marine corps combat veteran, and a candidate for u.s. senate. and so first, i would like your reaction, especially to the house republicans who are letting trump walk all over them for his political gain. >> well i mean, you are essentially advocating your duty. there is a problem at the border. we need to come together for a solution that brings more border security that voters are demanding. this surge is unlike anything i have seen here in arizona, and i've been a member of congress for ten years. i voted for 92 billion dollars for border security in the past, and still, it is not helping. the fact this is being used as

a political tool by republican senators and other politicians, i'm running against kari lake, who claims to be the biggest trump supporter in the world. she agreed with trump that we should not do this, we should fix the border so that helps him and her politically. i think that is a problem that has to be asked by all republicans. but this is dangerous territory we are in. we needed to treat this as a serious situation, not as a political opportunity, and shameful that republicans are doing that just so that they can get donald trump of all people back into office. >> congressman, al sharpton here. the political side of the proposed border control situation that trump is trying to manipulate, the politics of that is that you also have governor abbott sending thousands of migrants into mostly democratic cities that have black mayors in charge. you have the politics of it, where this bill where the solution, many progressives

don't like what they are willing to do something for the greater good. talk about that, because it is not like they are giving the woke crowd or the progressives anything that those of us consider progressive would want. this is something that is going to take some political maturity on all sides, and they don't even want to get that. >> look, it is not ideal, but we, as democrats, do not control all branches of the government right now. we had power within the house of representatives and i think the white house would come up with a quick solution that would actually answer the problems at the border. right now, it is not there. and so we do have to be the mature ones in the room, like we always are, and come up with a solution. at the end of the day, the long term solution has to come out of this is going to be a combination of border security and immigration reform. but until then, we have to do the best that we can to keep our system intact, because right now it is being abused. if you go down to the border

and talk to border patrol in talk to nonprofits that are working down there, you do see that it is being abused by people who are just trying to use it to get work permits. but at the same time, this is not a excuse to totally tear apart the system, because i think morally that is not something we want to do as a country. think morally >> so congressmank about the other half of this deal. the idea of border security was supposed to be done in exchange for foreign aid to israel and namely ukraine. you have obviously foreign policy credentials. tell us about what you see particularly there in europe where, by the day, we are hearing from kyiv, they are simply running out of ammunition and they're deeply worried about what will happen if the u.s. doesn't come through and come through soon. >> they should be, right? i visited ukraine, i've led by partisan delegations there pre where and postwar as chairman of the intel special operations committee. just personally, as a marine and a combat veteran, saying the statements are dedicated to freedom, to the idea that they wanted to be ukrainian, and

they are willing to sacrifice their lives for it. and for the united states in politicians like donald trump and kari lake who are going to essentially throw away their chance at freedom to really go against i would say the nature of the united states of supporting countries that are free and capitalistic and western-leaning for what? to satisfy i would say donald trump's lost to make putin happy? it is embarrassing. ronald reagan would be so embarrassed of what has become of the party, the fact that we are letting essentially an operation, a russian-led operation, misinformation destroy our standing in the world, and then a democracy who is willing to fight, not asking for one american troop, not asking for one american troop at all, and willing to fight for their sovereignty and all they are asking for us for a small portion of our military budget that they have done to

russia. we could never imagine have done -- nato could have done in many many years. so it is a sad statement on what -- how the world is looking at us right now that has been essentially lead but the policy of people like marjorie taylor greene, kari lake, and donald trump. >> democratic congressman ruben gallego of arizona, thank you very much. he of course is a candidate for u.s. senate. thank you very much for being on this morning. >> thank you. >> coming, up we will talk to an author who explains why an accidental random event and a life could have significant implications. implications

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book entitled fluke, chance, chaos, and why everything we do matters in which you discuss how throughout history it's not always the best decisions or strategies that determine the outcome of major events, but rather something often overlooked. explain what you are writing about. >> yeah, so the book fluke is all about chaos theory apply to human society in our own lives. it opens with a story from 1926 where a couple goes on a vacation to cota, japan, and if all over the city. 19 love years later, the husband's up as america secretary of war. he's henry simpson. he deciding where to drop the atomic bombs and you keep saying, we have to drop it on kyoto. he twice goes to president truman and says no, you can

destroy this, this is my favorite city in japan. and so the first bomb goes to hiroshima because of a -- 19 years earlier. the second bomb is most to go to kukura, but this brief cloud cover over the city, so the bombers go to the secondary target of nagasaki. so you have hundreds of thousands of people dying or living in two cities because of a 19-year-old vacation on a cloud. and most of what we think about is this neat and tidy story. what i'm arguing is that chance, chaos, and randomness often actually divert our trajectory is much more than we would imagine when we look closely at the event. >> so brian, the book is full of the sort of examples, it's a great read. on the civil war, a decisive moment for you, but let's turn to one that is more recent and the covid-19 pandemic, and you talk to us about how that seemingly chaotic series of events led to the path of it all. >> yeah, so throughout history, flukes and chants events have diverted trajectory,'s but we have made ourselves more prone

to them because we're hyper connected and we've optimize the optimal limit. so now one person gets infected with immediate virus, the entire world halts and goes into a standstill. 8 million people are affected. that didn't happen as quickly anymore. and you also had things like the suez canal, right? one vote gets a gust of wind twisted sideways, 54 billion dollars of economic damage. and so one of the arguments that i'm making in the book is that through chaos theory and understanding some of these concepts, you can realize that we've made ourselves more prone to these chants events, these random occurrences. we have made it more likely that black swans will wallop us. i think the 21st century bears that out. you have 9/11, warner, rock the financial crisis and then you have the arab spring launched by a guy who likes himself on fire in central tenisha. the entire middle east goes on fire. throughout the 21st century, we have been blindsided by this unexpected events. one of the arguments are making in the book is that we have engineered a sub society in which starbucks is unchanging, our daily lives are very routine and regular and ordered, but democracies are collapsing and rivers are drying up, and explaining why that is and how

we can potentially find more resilience to avoid it. we can>> so brian, what is the t big fluke? you mentioned covid, what is the next big fluke that we should watch out for, and a kind of sidebar question. in a world of a.i. and automation, aren't we actually kind of automating out the chance of flukes? because we are going to have data and predictability and almost everything. >> well that is the great aleutian. so a.i. is going to create the illusion of predictability and order, but it is going to embed i think some systemic risk into our world. and i think that this is the stuff where, if you imagine the way that we live compared to human ancestors long past, they had day-to-day chaos, right? they did know where they would get the next meal or what would happen in a day-to-day life, but their world was the same generation to generation. parents taught children how to live, not the reverse. and now we've invited that world. we have a world in which kids teach parents how to use technology, in which we have computers that we don't all fully understand running systems, and the models that we

use are built on this idea of regularity. i think we have actually embedded lots more risks into the future. what the next fluke? as i don't know. that is the nature of it. i think that is the entire idea. you cannot predict things like about getting stuck in the suez canal and causing 54 billion dollars of damage. and i think what is more important is to imagine how we might become more resilient. by optimizing slightly less in the face of this uncertainty in building a little bit more slack into our systems, which i do not think is the driving standard in modern politics today. >> the new book is entitled fluke, chance, chaos, and why everything we do matters. >> when joe weekend continues after a short break. ter a short break. lts 50 years and older. shingrix does not protect everyone and is not for those with severe allergic reactions to its ingredients or to a previous dose. an increased risk of guillain-barré syndrome was observed after getting shingrix. fainting can also happen. the most common side effects are pain, redness and swelling at the injection site, muscle pain, tiredness, headache,

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other hostages are being held in horrific conditions, with little food, fresh air, or sunlight. her sister recently spoke to activists -- about the mounting concern she has for romi's physical and mental well-being. take a look. >> she is my little sister, and she is 23 years old. she has all of her life in front of her, but the mental breakdown that they already are experiencing, it is not something that necessarily they could recover from. they told the once that with the physical injury, they can deal with it, it's okay, but with the mental ambition, it is not that easy, and it is getting harder. first i was trying to be so strong, and i was, but every day it is getting harder to

hold it and to feel like nobody cares. >> is that how you feel? >> yeah. lately i see the hate, the hatred for us, like we deserve it, like my sister deserve it. >> and montana joins us now. you recently did that interview and israel, marking the 100 days of captivity for the remaining hostages being held by hamas. tell me more about those conversations. is there any information on romi and her current condition, any pictures released, and acknowledge that she is still alive? >> yeah, it's now been 111 days since she has been held captive. she was taken from that nova music festival, where friends were murdered and she sustained a horrible injury from a

gunshot to her arm. some of the hostages that have returned over 50 days ago told yarden, her sister, that they saw romi, that she was alive, but she wasn't really desperate need of medical attention and that her hands had changed color, and she was not able to move her fingers anymore. i yarden lives with the very real fear every single day that our sister can now be over three months pregnant with the terrorist captors. many of the hostages returned reported repeated sexual assault, and without having any ability to know the conditions of her sister or whether she's getting any medical attention, when they are coming home. again, none of these families want war, they just want their families back. >> you also visited shifa hospital, we met with two doctors have worked closely with both the victims of the october 7th attacks and the hostages who have since returned. what did we learn, especially from the returning hostages, to

give us a sense of what is going on there? >> yeah, they just talked about the devastation from these hostages they come home, three unification with the family members, the notifying them of their loved ones who passed away since they have been gone. there's a profound mental health crisis amongst the entire country. one of the doctors talked about, she said that i've never turned a patient away. our doors are open to anyone. when i get a call from my resident, i don't ask where they are. our job as doctors is to treat people, and all i want is the same character people that are in gaza to these hostages. she said this is the same message that she gave president biden when he visited. a lot of these hostages have very real life-threatening issues and they just want them to receive medical care. she talked about what it was like to be on call on october 7th, the atrocities, seeing families, children that were burned in their mother's arms, who had to hide under dead

bodies. it was -- she just grind a pogrom, and i think there's a profound heartbreak that they feel that the international, community could not condemn or could not say hey, sexually assaulting a woman and leaving a knife inside of her when she entered the hospital was wrong. just a level of atrocity was so heartbreaking. >> morning joe: weekend continues after a short break. [laughs] [laughs] with nurtec odt i can treat and prevent my migraine attacks all in one. don't take if allergic to nurtec. allergic reactions can occur even days after using. most common side effects were nausea, indigestion and stomach pain. talk to your doctor

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deliberate extermination over many years. >> but wasn't slavery for like hundreds of years, right, isabelle? >> slavery lasted 246 years. that is 13 generations of people plus another hundred years of jim crow, segregation, violence, and murder. >> it is of course horrific. i'm not downplaying any of it. >> there were so many millions of african americans who were murdered from the middle passage into the end of legal segregation, that goes beyond the realm of an official number. there is no number. >> i didn't know that. >> stunning. >> it is, and understand that you're trying to make sense of american racism, but your thesis linking germany with the united states is flawed.

>> that was a clip from the new film from award-winning director eva duvernay, and it's entitled origin. it has been getting rave reviews. rolling stone writes it may be the most important biopic of a buck ever made, and the washington post made it one of the most powerful films on screen this season. movies based on the book cast, the origins of our discontents written by pulitzer prize-winning journalist isabelle wilkerson. it follows wilkerson's journey to discover the roots of racism and social inequality in america and around the world. joining us now, the films director, writer and director, academy award-nominated the maker eva duvernay. it's great to have you on the show. you've read the book three times, and so what made you

drawn to bring it to life? >> you know, i think we are all experiencing a fatigue. i think you hear a lot of apathy from people, confusion as to how to organize our thoughts about all of this going on in the world, and that book for me was very incurring, it really captivated my imagination with a new language, this word caste that i never applied to my contemporary experiences, and pull together history, pull together the future, and it put it in the present day, and became something that i want to make sure that more people were interrogating. >> so obviously, there has been so much debate, especially since 2020 over race. we now are having a battle over history for those that don't want to face our past. i'm curious though, with everything that is been written about the struggles, the race, the race battles not just over the past three years, but over

the past 354, 400 years, what separates this book in what do you think separates your movie from so many other things that have been put out there. >> i don't know if it is separate. i think it is a part of the conversation. i think adding this grim new word in, caste, inviting people to think about our divisions in a way that is not about skin color and race. it's about a hierarchy of human beings. the way in which we organize ourselves according to power and status, and the way that we treat ourselves because of that organization is a new way to drill into all of the isms. basically, as i understand, it is about what carson is saying and sharing this hypothesis that caste undergirds all of the isms. racism, sexism, islamophobia, antisemitism, ageism. all of them sudden top of this idea of i am better than you based on a set of random traits.

that is caste. and understand our divisions in that way, for me, allows me to talk about it in a different way that is free of some of the limitations of caste, excuse me, limitations of race. you say race to someone, they start to shut down, and it's hard even have a conversation about the poor issues. caste allow them to open that up a little bit for me. >> that is over the saturday dishing of morning joe. >> the weekend! >> the weekend on msnbc starts right now! >> you are your picks? your picks? >> good morning, it is saturday, january 27th. i'm alicia menendez with symone sanders-townsend and michael steele. here are some of the stories we are following today. a jury order style trump to pay e. jean carroll more than $80 million in