octavia butler. and sheree rene thomas, award-winning fiction writer, poet, editor, and recipient of the 2023 octavia e butler award. i'm grateful to both of you. that does it for me, thank you for watching. catch me back here tomorrow morning from 10 am to noon eastern. trans coleman will be into me tomorrow. don't forget velshi is also available as a podcast. follow and listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. as you know, i do the podcast invest. check out your favorite velshi segments on youtube at the msnbc.com slash ali. stay right where you are, the katie phang show starts right now. katie phang show starts righ now. i am katie phang, live from telemundo studios in miami, florida. here is the week that was. >> nbc news can now project the winner of the new hampshire republican primary is donald trump. >> think about, appointed the senator of his state, she endorsed me. you must really hate her.

>> i just love you. >> donald trump got out there and just threw a temper tantrum. bring it, donald. show me what you got. >> to the surprise of costars and fans it wasn't enough for the film star margaret abe or its director, critical wig, to get inoculation. >> look, it was a good quarter. don't get me wrong. 3.3% lead estimates. the last quarter was a good quarter, 4.9%. absolutely. he gets his due. >> the fact that he would communicate to republican senators and congresspeople that he doesn't want us to solve the border problem because he wants to blame biden for is really appalling. >> joe biden bet on the american worker while donald trump blamed the american worker. >> the line here is mr. woodward has already filed an appeal. >> defendant trump ordered to pay $83 million to the writer,

he jean carroll. >> i'm not having anything thoughts on representing president trump. it is the proudest thing i could ever do. >> now is the time to make him pay for. now is the time to make him pay for it dearly. donald trump shall pay e. jean carroll dearly, to the tune of 83 point $3 million. we have barb mcquade here on trump's verdict whiplash. how his ego is writing checks his wallet can't cash. breaking news, out of a federal court in new york on friday afternoon and a unanimous nine person jury ordering nine person jury to -- for her than trump to pay e. jean carroll it if you buy $3 llioit is quite a blow to the quadruple and pitched disgraced ex president, one

landmark decision for one of the few has been able to hold him accountable. that staggering sum includes some 20 million for a motion damage in most notably 76 million in punitive damages. the testimony was limited to a mere three-minute performance on the stand. now the question becomes, can trump afford to continue his onslaught of defamatory attacks? as for e. jean carroll in a atent friday night she wrote the following. this is a great victory for every woman who stands up when she's been knocked down and a huge defeat for every bully who has tried to keep a woman down. joining me now is barbara mcquade msnbc legal analyst, former attorney in michigan, and a co-host of the sister in law podcast. barbara my friend we did talk about this trial as it was leading up to yesterday's verdict. your reaction? i think the table was already set for trump to lose partially because of who he is, his nature, but also because there were some legal decisions that

went into this trial that precluded donald trump from being able to argue in any capacity that he had liability for this defamation. >> that is right, katie. the judge here ruled that the prior jury had already decided that donald trump did indeed sexually assault e. jean carroll and defamed e. jean. this case is all about damages for his subsequent statements that were defamatory to her. in some ways he was expected, of course, that there will be a liability. the question really was, how much? i do think that this is a big deal. a big victory, not just for e. jean carroll, but for the rule of law. i think that one of the things donald trump tries to demonstrate is he is above the law. a continuous post on social media, even during the trial, in an effort to say, you can't touch me. by sending a verdict of $83 million with $65 million in punitive damages, i think jerry

gave a very loud response rejecting that view of donald trump in trump's nature. >> barb, you and i have tried cases throughout the span of our careers. you and i both know jury selection is actually the most important part of any jury trial. of course there can be drama in closing arguments. maybe a perry mason moment during cross examination but really it is the selection process of jurors. our viewers need to understand that is the critical moment when the future of that trial is really laid out. talk about what you think were the most impactful moments, or the elements that you think this nine person jury considered? i will remind our viewers that there were seven men and two women who served on this particular jury. >> yes, really the goal, katie, is not to stack the deck. the other side is there selecting, as well. but to find people who will be fair minded to your case. that is the goal that were burdickville have in mind. it appeared that she succeeded.

some people say you need women on the jury in certain cases, or man on the jury in certain cases. here regardless of gender this is really about bringing in a fair minded group of people here. i think there were some key moments in this case. in many ways, donald trump was his own worst enemy. when he testified all he did was get on the stand and say he stand by everything he said in his deposition. i suppose i gave his lawyer an opportunity to then argue things that were contained within his deposition. when he tried to testify further, he violated the rules of josh kaplan had set forth here. all about sticking to what the relevant issues were in this case, not liability, simply damages. he couldn't do that. he was off the stand. i think going back to the idea that he is his own worst enemy, his testimony was not helpful. his position in the new york fraud case bragging about the value of his assets, how much money he has, i think hurt his case. the continual post on social media, throughout this case, continue to defame e. jean

carroll, i think that hurt his case. and in his closing arguments while e. jean carroll's lawyer was arguing to the jury, donald trump stood up and walked off. again demonstrating that he is not viewing this as something that should subject him to the rule of law, or show any remorse. i think all of those things contributed to the verdict that this jury returned. >> a large part of the conversation now that the verdict has been rendered, barb, when will e. jean carroll ever see any of this money? we do know an appeal was filed by daltrump on the first verdict from her first defamation trial. donald trump has pledged, very loudly, he is going to appeal this verdict. talk a little bit, barb, about timing. we can't really call when an appeals court are gonna be able to move and how quickly it'll happen. as you know, we've been waiting for that presidential immunity appeal decision to come out from the d.c. circuit. and you talk a little bit about timing in terms of when e. jean carroll might actually see soleimani in this case? carroll mighdonald trump will he

an appeal within ten days. we know that he is interested in appeal. he will also have to put up some sort of an appeal bond. you have to put up money so that it is to discourage people from filing frivolous appeals just to delay the day a payment. sometimes it is the full amount of more than the full amount of damages. and damages amount this high, $83 million, and maybe something less than that amount. appeals work their way through the appellate courts. it is not unusual to take many months, if not years, to have a decision work its way all the way through the appellate courts. in terms of when eating correctly gets a money? i don't think it will be in calendar 2024. it could be calendar 2025. i imagine one of the issues that the trump team will raise on appeal is $83 million is too much. i think that they made a good record about why this number is what it is. even if the number gets reduced, i don't see getting reduced substantially. >> barb, i have less than a

minute but i want to emphasize something you just said about the appeal and the record on appeal. we did see lawyering that came out of the defense team with -- bio accounts from reading the transcript, following what happened in that trial, there was a failure to preserve the record on appeal by way of objections that didn't happen, or improper, et cetera. can you talk quickly, far, about how important it is to have a skilled trial lawyer when you're in trial versus someone who is, perhaps, a skilled mouthpiece only. >> the standard on appeal is very different if you preserve an objection on the record in the trial court. there were notable records where leon have failed to do that. if you fail to notice, you bring it up on appeal later, you are bound by a very different standard, clear error standard under the appellate record. it could be very damaging to the case when you have a lawyer failed to object at the moment

that happened at the trial. the purpose is to avoid sandbagging if you could've corrected the manicured now used of doing that because voted to do that could ultimately mean a loss on appeal. >> barb mcquade, my friend, as always great to see you. thank you for helping athletes down get started. i appreciate you very much. >> thank, you. katie >> still to come on the katie phang show, victimizing the victims. a shocking of a new study revealing just how many forced pregnancies for over half 1 million victims of rape in states with abortion bans after the end of roe. first, we have to scission 2024. early voting begins today in the nevada primary. the former president is ditching the courtroom for the campaign trail with a rally in las vegas scheduled for later this afternoon. there is much more to come on the katie phang show, don't go anywhere. anywhere respiratory disease from rsv in people 60 years and older. arexvy does not protect everyone and is not for those with severe allergic reactions to its ingredients. those with weakened immune systems

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nine months out from the 2024 election. the candidates are still pressing and vying for votes. gop nikki haley and president biden are both rallying in south carolina. while donald trump is holding his first rally in nevada ahead of the caucus as early voting for the next republican primary in the state has already begun. his remarks today will likely include a whole lot of hot air in vitriol. all of that bluster and lives won't erase the reality of the damning verdict from last night. what will maga world even care?

joining me now from las vegas, nbc news correspondent, liz kreutz. liz, i know you're there on the ground in trump's rally that is gonna start in just a few hours. he was pretty vocal on social media last night. any indication from trump's team what his tone will be today? what are you hearing from those rally goers there? >> hey katie, we are four hours away now from this rally. you can see there are a lot of people here lined up right now. these are his most ardent supporters lining up early for hours to be the first in the door. these folks we have talked to today, no surprise. this is not gonna move them at all. the decision yesterday. they all tell us they believe it's a hoax, a witch hunt. it is part of a big conspiracy to try to get donald trump to drop out of the race. one woman told us she thinks it is gonna have the opposite effect. it will actually help him. take a listen. >> it will bring more to him, it brought me even more to whom

knowing because i have been a victim of sexual assault. i didn't weigh 30 years. i did it right away. you know? >> you think seeing all these court cases well actually boost his support? >> that is what i believe. >> the big question is whether or not whether he will publicly talk about here today. he will obviously have a sympathetic crowd if he doesn't often does use his public platform with his supporters here at his grievances. you mentioned katy has been very vocal on truth social, his social media platform. he said yesterday it was absolutely ridiculous. i fully believe with both verdicts and will be appealing this biden directed witch hunt. it will be interesting to see if he goes that route here today. this is what we will be watching for. i want to point out, as you brought up, it is the first day of early voting here in atlanta for the state's primary. what is interesting is as the republican voters get their ballots in the mail they are not going to be seeing trump's name on the ballot.

it is a little bit confusing and that is because he is running in the caucuses happening two days out of the primary. nikki haley, however, is running in the primary. it is very likely nikki haley will be able to claim victory in the primary, donald trump will be able to claim victory in the caucuses. that is where the delegates are being rewarded. still, he is going to be winning the caucuses, winning the delegates here in the state. it is a and interesting political twist to all of this. at the same time, trump's appearance here today does appear to be a shift to his focus on the general. he's only looking to win this day in upcoming -- >> nbc's lives kreutz think is so much for joining us. former congressman, david jolly is also an msnbc political analyst and daniel moody the host of the daily beast abnormal podcast. co-host of the democracy-ish podcast. when both of them are not busy, they like to hang out with katie phang. thanks for being here. i will start with you. ron desantis slinking off to

the sidelines. trump winning the new hampshire primary. we are seeing a new and slightly improved nikki haley hitting back at trump like never before. even yesterday responding to that e. jean carroll verdict. dave it, is it all just too little too late from her? >> that is the only arguments she has. left too little too late i think is right. she should've made a stronger case against donald trump at the beginning. she is also been very equivocal refusing to hold him accountable, saying she is not sure the facts of the e. jean carroll case. she equivocate on -- i would suggest her entire candidacy has been a little weak. she now has a one-on-one contest. in a one-on-one contest she gets to draw a contrast with donald trump in front of republican voters. she is reaching a little bit for the jugular. katie, this race is over. it is done. look at the new hampshire stats, the most important stat coming out of new hampshire is that three out of four republicans in improving for donald trump.

seven out of ten of nikki haley's voters were not republicans. for the rest of the way nikki haley has to make a case to republicans, perhaps she performs okay in south carolina. she is down by about 20. this republican races over. the question then is, what is nikki haley getting out of the next month? that we will have to wait and see. >> danielle, one of the things i think stood out from the exit polling in new hampshire was that, among independents in the gop primary,% said they would've voted for trump in november if he were the nominee. can biden secure that support? can he get them to come over and vote for him? >> i think that that is the whole, right? here is the saying, we focus a lot on trump's base. the reality is, he cannot just win the presidential election with his base. he will actually need to bring on other voters. what we saw with nikki haley's performance is independents are not trying to hear donald

trump. i think that he is a turn off. that woman who we just showed said that this case made her want to vote for donald trump more, i think more rational americans are not interested in a person with so much baggage. amanda has been found guilty of sexual assault is now liable for 83 point $3 million in damages, right? it is starting to look like the presidency, for him, is they get a free gio card. the rest of us have known and hopefully independents will see that. biden will be able to pressure test that. >> david, while all eyes were in new york watching that trial go on for e. jean carroll. in our state of california, republicans trying to pull a fast. monday tried to have taxpayers foot the bill for trump multiple legal problems. governor ron desantis, of all people, swooping in to save the day. threatening to veto any efforts to do so. what are your thoughts about the fact the gop was trying to use taxpayer money as trump's personal piggy bank to cover his legal expenses?

>> monica is alive and well, particularly in the state of florida. there is a supermajority republican legislature. it is a state where the republican party is within the grips of donald trump. not a holy round of santas. if desantis had stayed through to florida he would've been humiliated by donald trump. what do you see from around desantis? i think we are about to experience the inquiry governor in florida. he and his wife, casey, they like to brag over the past year they never lost a race. they just lost the biggest one of their lives. this is someone with a glass jaw and a fragile ego but also a penchant for anger in arrogance. the mongol republican party says, let's help donald trump. ron desantis right now is saying, not a chance. it is an interesting move. he could've stayed silent. he took a punch at the former president. that would suggest that that relationship is not a warm one now that desantis is out. >> i don't think anyone ever thought that rhonda santos was anything ever but frigid. danielle, i want to have you take a quick listen to something prominent

conservative voice, charlie park, said this week when he was but moaning dei. take a quick listen. >> if i see a black pilot, i'm gonna be like, boy, i hope he is qualified. >> danya? what does that mean though? >> i am trying to figure that out. [laughs] >> i am literally speechless. charlie kirk is still buddies with maga, trump, and everything. he says this stuff out loud. the outrage doesn't exist. it should. just make it make sense, because it doesn't. >> and we are outraged. but you have to understand that he utters and is in lockstep with the way the markets the premise believe and think. anything that is inclusive, that provides equity, is something that they don't want america to have. everything they are fighting for him is about in 1953 america. and america before integration. and america before we had the

civil rights act. that is what they want. they've already done it with affirmative action. they have done it with roe v. wade. they are coming for everything that's next. what i want people to understand is it doesn't matter whether donald trump, nikki haley, or whomever the republicans picked. they have project 2025, which is laid out. telling the american people that they want a christian fascist state. that is what they want. that is what charlie kirk says. he says all of the quiet things out loud for everyone to hear so we don't have to wonder, i wonder what he's thinking? he is thinking black and brown people do not have a place in this country. people do not ha this is whyu and david on. you guys owe a sane speak the truth. thank you for being here. former congresswoman, david zhang li and -- i appreciate it. up next, a call to serve the former trump white house official who blew the whistle on trump so-called perfect call to ukrainian president vladimir

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closer to securing the republican nomination, control of congress can't be more important. former u.s. army colonel, eugene vindman, not to be confused with his twin brother alexander vindman, is heeding the call to serve his country once again. if his name is familiar, colonel vindman then a -- flight his quote perfect call between then president donald trump and the newly-elected ukrainian president, vladimir walensky. ultimately resulting in trump's first impeachment. colonel vindman's reward for his integrity? he was retaliated against by the trump ministration, forced out of a job, and targeted by republicans. joining me now is retired u.s.

army colonel eugene vindman, democratic congressional candidate running to serve virginia's seventh district. he formally served as deputy legal battle for the white house national security council. colonel, you actually did a lot more than just that. let's talk about what happened when you blew the whistle on donald trump's attempts to extort vladimir zelenskyy. how frustrating is it that you now see his own party failed to hold trump accountable for the myriad of wrongdoings that we have seen him commit? >> katie, the first time he was not held accountable he was acquitted by the senate. that just further empowered him. he proceeded on to continue to attack our democracy, our norms, and our constitution. interfering, of course, in our electoral process by attempting to extort zelenskyy into investigating his chief rival, biden. through the remainder of his presidency, and now january 6th

in an open insurrection. one of the things that i see when i travel around this district, yesterday i was out in green county. they announced the verdict in the e jean carroll defamation trial. there was a round of applause. he was finally being held accountable. it is important to make sure that no one is above the law. even a former president, when he commits violations of the law, defames people, he is held accountable. >> colonel, your family's story is the immigrant story. truly embodying the american dream. your thoughts that year family fleas and authoritarian soviet union, they come to america, to only be confronted with donald trump, who wants to be a dictator like vladimir putin or victor oman. >> that is 100% true. in fact, he respects, he praises, dictators.

he aspires to be a dictator. he already said he wants to be a dictator on day one. my family fled the soviet union, a bigoted regime, and antisemitic regime, to come here in hopes of pursuing the american dream. now that dream is under threat again in 2024. we thought maybe we had heard the last of him in 2020. he was never held accountable. now he is going for in 2024. largely, frankly, to avoid accountability and to avoid jail time. when i travel around this district, it is a rather large diverse district, most people are concerned about preserving democracy. that is one of the main things people talk about. certainly the bread and butter issues that are important. rural infrastructure in schools, reproductive rights. i am going to fight for the future, fight for democracy, and ensure that our kids and

grandkids can inch up enjoy the american dream like i have. i am a textbook, my family is a textbook example of what you can achieve in america. >> colonel, you served in the u.s. military for 25. years you are a combat vet of the iraq war. your twin brother, alexander, 21 years of service. how important is it your mission to serve in congress that veterans be recognized for their sacrifices? >> well, it is very important. in fact, donald trump called veterans suckers and losers. he attacked a gold star families. it is truly disgusting. these are some of america's best. they have made the ultimate sacrifice, even if they have not lost their lives, they have been wounded, like my twin brother alex. when you do a complete army career, even if it is a short amount of service in the military, the entire family serves.

unfortunately what we have seen from donald trump's attacks on veterans, calling them suckers and losers, continuing with the dysfunctional republican congress. senator tuberville has been playing games for the better part of a year. holding up promotions for the most senior officials. he gained nothing other than politicizing the military further, which was a process that started with us. i take veterans issues very seriously. northern virginia the seventh congressional district has a lot of veterans, a lot of government ploys. the functional government shutdown affects people here deeply. and i will fight for the people of northern virginia, for the vets, and anthony military officer and as -- i will stay mission focused and i will stay focused on defeating extremists. >> colonel, eugene vindman, i

want to thank you for your years of service, your integrity, and your willingness to continue to serve as you hear that call to be in congress. thanks for being here. >> thank you, katie. >> up next, they were warned. staggering new study revealing how over half 1 million rapes resulted in tens of thousands of forced pregnancies in states with abortion bans. the lone star state of texas topping that list. the studies author joins me next. you always got your mind on the green. not you. you! your business bank account with quickbooks money

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the journal of the american medical association paints a stunning picture of what a post-roe america really looks like. 519,981. that is how many women and girls have been raped, researchers estimate, across the 14 states that currently have abortion ban since the supreme court struck down roe v. wade in 2022. nearly 520,000 rapes resulted in 64,565 pregnancies, most of which in states with no exceptions and allow for the termination of pregnancy that occur as a result of rape. at the top of those 14 states, is texas. more than 26,000 rape related pregnancies are estimated to have happened since roe was overturned. 64,000, women and girls. those numbers are not just

figures, they are women and young girls who are victims of not only sexual violence but the ending of what was once a constitutional right. joining me now is one of the co-authors of that study, doctor samuel dickman health uyghur and medical director of planned parenthood of montana. i reached out to you immediately after i read the piece published in the journal of american medical association. that number floored me. nearly 64,000 pregnancies from rate. it is a stunning. figure when you were doing the research and you are the primary lead on this particular study you went and looked at these numbers. what really stood out to you other than these outrageous numbers? >> well, thank you, katie. the research that my colleagues and i did was a confirmation of what we know about sexual violence and rape in the united states. it is extraordinarily common,

much more common than i think most people really appreciate. states with abortion bans, there is no meaningful access to care for survivors of sexual assault and rape. any medical services. >> doctor dickman, talk to us about the actual journal. the journal of the american medical association. talk about how studies like yours that are published in a particular publication, how they are peer reviewed. have a go through a stringent review process. there are critics that we have seen out of your study saying, well, these are just estimates. these are just random numbers put together from the researchers in this case to fit a particular narrative. >> i wish these numbers were not so high. we used the best available evidence from the centers for these control, the cbc. they conduct excellent research on the levels of sexual violence and rape in this

country. that is the starting point for the estimates that we provide for the number of girls and women who were raped in states with abortion bans, as well as the number who became pregnant as a result. every research study in this journal, our study was peer reviewed. it, of course, describes assumptions that are inherent to any research. we think this is the best available evidence right now. of course, we look forward to doing more research and collaborating with others in trying to figure out the scope and scale of this, obviously horrific, public health problem. >> dr. jacob, you talk about how this is the best available research that can be done. that is in large part because of under reporting by subjects, these young women and girls.

the under reporting to law enforcement, talk about why there is this fallacy when you look at a state that has an abortion ban with an exception, and i put that in quotes, why is this such a reality in terms of this being a found see that these exceptions actually could help when it comes to under-reporting to law enforcement, access to safe and legal abortions? >> and we now only a small fraction of survivors of rape and sexual assault actually report that crime to law enforcement. there are so many reasons for that. fundamentally what it means is it is virtually impossible for survivors to obtain abortion care, or honestly, and other medical services, as well. they may feel distressful law enforcement. they may be in a relationship with an abuser who has threatened them. they cannot travel safely even within their own city. there are many reasons why

survivors choose not to report. that doesn't mean that they don't deserve medical care, including an abortion. >> doctor dickman, there is a reason why i use the honorific title of doctor. you are a physician. you also do research. you used to practice medicine in the state of texas, the one that i noted at the beginning of the interview was at the very top of the states that have rape pregnancies that have occurred as a result of very draconian abortion bans. talk to us about why you moved out of texas to be able to continue to do work? >> well, katie, i worked in san antonio, in south texas, for several years as an abortion provider in a primary care physician. i moved in 2022 with my family because i spent years in years training to be if edition,

abortion care was a key part of that. i wanted to keep doing that work. unfortunately texas had made it very clear that the state had already banned abortions past six weeks and was on the cusp of banning them right. i moved to montana. montana is, fortunately, much stronger in protecting women and pregnant people. that is where i landed. >> doctor dickman, before i have to let you go this study that has been published is only just window of time since roe was overturned in 2022. is there an intent on your part, and your colleagues, to continue to further the study? to see the impact on women and young girls when they are arranged and they have no access to safe and legal abortions? >> i wish research like this was not necessary. i wish sexual violence were not

so common. the survivors were able to access the medical care that they need. we know survivors are fearful of even seeking out abortion care. that is for so many reasons. fearful of abusers. knowing that they have no access to abortion care in states like texas. of course my hope is research like this helps shed light on that and results in reconsideration of abortion bans which have caused so much harm for survivors of sexual violence and so many other people in the u.s.,. >> doctor samuel dickman, and i really appreciate you taking the time to join us today and thank you so much for the hard work on that study. >> thank you, katie. i appreciate it. >> after the break, hope in ohio. we will go inside one churches they go battle to provide shelter for unhoused people in our community and why the city

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decided to leave his church doors open 24 hours a day, seven days a week, to aow the unhoused a place to state, he was confronted with what he is calling a harassment campaign from the city. pastor chris abel received 18 zoning violations from the city of bryant, ohio stating a residence that doesn't allow residents to stay on the first several other, so-called,ll as pharco violations. now the church is fighting back. this week, the pastor filed a federal lawsuit against the city alleging discrimination on the basis of religion is while they're claiming city officials have participated in a targeted effort against the church. joining me now is pastor chris

abel in-depth police in brian, ohio, as well as to the tourney, jimmy. dice senior counsel at. jeremy, we are gonna start with you as we get the pastor online. jeremy, aberrant three lawsuit. i see you are also seeking a temporary injunction. get my viewers up to speed on why there has been violations of pastor a vow, and dance place, the church and their constitutional rights. >> that's police started back in 2018 and the city council approved them to be a church in the downtown area and in 2023 early 2023 they decided to go 24 hours a day. they recognized a great need for people to have a place to stay and they just stopped locking their doors and allow people to come in and out as they. please they have services 24 hours a day there inside that church. by november of 2020 for the city was not taking too kindly to that issue. they began to really pressure pastor avell to shut his doors and drive the people from

society. this created a horrible situation where they sent the fire chief, the police officers, again the fire chief, again more police officers towards a population of people that are constantly being pushed around by law enforcement generally. that all calm unaided on december 31st when, as pastor avell was walking into his church, carrying donuts at the matter-of-fact lead services that morning, a worship service, he was met by a police officer. in front of his entire congregation he was served these criminal charges for violating zoning ordinances, at least allegedly, under the cities rubric there. he had to plead not guilty as those seeking shelter in his church watched. this is remarkable to me. the only mayor in the united states america right now criminally prosecuting a pastor for doing nothing more than having his church open 24 hours a day. i would never thought i would see the day.

>> jeremy, life, safety issues, clearly you and i would agree. they should be dealt with. if they're all or violations of codes, they should be dealt with. i read something that was very interesting in your lawsuit. there have been attempts by pastor avell to write whatever wrongs have been perceived to exist when it comes to these code violations. yet the goalposts seemed to keep moving farther and farther way for him. can you talk briefly about what's going on with that? >> no one cares more about the safety of those inside of his church then pastor avell. he has tried every effort to come into compliance with every demand presented by the fire chief. in fact today the crash bars on the doors that have been required, not required, but then required again and not required still are being installed. that is one of the goalpost that have shifted here. this is the church open 24 hours a day. one inspection the fire chief said, hey, you have to leave these doors open. the church said, fine. we are open 24 hours a day.

we don't need to lock the doors. he came back on the next visit and said you need to have crashed bars, the panic bars installed on the doors. you need to do it in seven days. that is hardly reasonable. you have an estimate, the next expression saying, leave the doors unlocked. but now they want to crash rise again it is very difficult to come into compliance with a very old building that hasn't been inspected since 2023, shockingly, when the fire chief keeps shifting the goalposts again no one cares more about the safety of those inside that church then pastor avell. that is evidence by the fact that he is compiled with everything the fire chief has demanded of him, or at least attempted to comply with everything the party visited him. the only asked any ships they remained whether not people can stay inside that building, 24 hours a day. he -- for the city of brian ohio to continue to smear him, bully him and building his people out of the church is not only

unconstitutional, it is unconscionable. i've got about 30 seconds but i did want to know that you said city they didn't want to, describe, not in my backyard issue. i also saw in your lawsuit that dads places located next to the sanctuary homeless shelter of williams county, a christian holmes cell to. it is also located across the street from sara strength. a nonprofit organization that provides support to victims of domestic abuse. it seems to me that there is a theme here, a pattern. in this area of the community where they are trying to help those who needed the most, the city is just trying to shut it down wholesale. >> the sanctuary was not exactly welcomed with open arms when it tried to move into town some years ago. the same day that the city council approved dads place to exist there in the city they also denied an application for a church to exist on the town square. there seemed to be a pattern and abuse of the ordinances by

the city of bryan, ohio to drive hours organizations from the downtown area. perhaps mayor slayed would like to welcome these individuals into her church. that offer has not been extended. yes unless and until the city is prepared to care for -- pastor avell as prepared to care for their health, safety, provide them with the one thing to say when it is bitter cold outside. most importantly of all, to care for the race. all that is something the city of bryant, ohio is ill prepared to do. thankfully the constitution allows the stretch to exist, caring for the whole person that is on house right now. >> i am so sorry for our viewers that we were not able to get pastor avell on due to some technical difficulties. i will say this one thing before we say goodbye to you jeremy dys. pastor avell said god first loved him when he was spiritually homeless, providing a home for him. many of the people rejected by the families and cast aside and their communities comes to dad's place. it is what he was called to do. it is his mission to lay down his life and service and humility. i want to say thank you to jeremy dys i want to say thank

you to pasture avell, he was not here. jeremy, thank you for being here. i really appreciated. >> my pleasure. >> thanks to all of you for joining us today. you can catch me back here next saturday at noon eastern. msnbc reports with alex witt's next. xt ry jar. olay visibly firms, lifts, and smooths wrinkles, by penetrating the skin, to boost regeneration at the surface cellular level. try olay.