like this, which is i think challenging and asks a law not only of the people that are in it, but the people that are coming to see it. and so that combination, i think, is thrilling to have space for that on a broadway stage. >> congratulations, it's getting great reviews. people are loving it. you can see days of wine and roses, now until april 20, eight at studio 54. in new york city, and kelly, you and i are blunted for life, because we finished second apart from each other the new york city marathon. >> yes we did. >> we did it. kelly o'hara, brian dorsey janes, congrats, good to see both. >> and thanks for being with us on this sunday morning. >> a lot of big games. >> are you watching? >> of course. >> i will be cooking. all right, we'll be back live tomorrow at 6 am eastern, msnbc's the weekend starts right now. >> reporter: good morning, it is sunday, january 28th.

i'm alicia menendez with simone standers townsend and michael steele. here are some of the stories we are following today. donald trump delivering a new calling for, quote, compute -- complete immunity for presidents. plus, the house speaker cold water on -- congresswoman the net paragon will tell us where things stand. we will also hear from hhs secretary javier -- after record breaking care for the affordable care act. grab your coffee, settle, in to the weekend. we begin with donald trump ramping up his calls for presidential immunity. the former president posting late last night that, quote, without complete immunity, a president united states would not be able to properly function. this comes as trump gears up for a busy few weeks on legal and political fronts. appeals could go at either moment on those immunity

claims. just days from now, the supreme court will hear oral arguments over whether the state of colorado can a boot trump from the presidential ballot. those cases intertwined with primaries, and with caucuses in nevada and south carolina. joining us now, msnbc legal analyst paul butler. he is a georgetown law professor and former federal prosecutor. sir, i'm going to ask you to fact check the former president that is not how immunity works. >> the president does not have absolute total immunity for anything that he did when he was in the white house. that is what donald trump is trying to get to the d.c. court of appeals to roll. i guarantee you that we they will uphold judge chutkan's opinion. this is all about delay. and the question is, after the d.c. court rules the balls in the supreme court's hand, this should be an easy case. the court does not have to take it. if it does, that will result in more delay. but what i think ultimately is because the case is so easy, the court will decide the immunity issue in favor of jack

smith, next case on the docket, the colorado 14th amendment case, the court will decide that for donald trump, and not disqualify him. it will therefore look like it's being ian haven handed, one for jack smith, and one for donald trump. >> reporter: but that, i think, is part of the perception problem that the courts find themselves in when it comes to how these cases are coming. first of the timing. i was talking with some folks alaska of days, and it is palpable, the frustration a lot of americans have. but the lack of speed here, because they know how the judicial system works. they know how criminals, defendants, and others will process through. and yes, they were appeals, and things like that, but this just seems like the system is continuing to bend over backwards, and the court finds itself in a very difficult spot trying to pursue justice on an appropriate timeline, but then

also come up against these big questions that ostensibly could delay, reasonably delay. so there's trying to get people to understand that it's been difficult. >> that's exactly right. donald trump has these two huge issues in his public life. he is campaign for president, and he's got four criminal cases. the through line is the supreme court. it will decide whether he gets to stay on a ballot, not only in colorado, but in all of the other jurisdictions that are challenging whether the president participated in an insurrection, and whether that disqualifies him, and of course, in the criminal cases, the court is deciding whether he's immune and gets to be tried, held accountable for the insurrection brought about by the jurors of the district of columbia. >> reporter: paul, yesterday chuck rosenberg was here and he said something that i guess i had never heard before, and i want to play it for you.

it is of what chuck rosenberg said about the 20th amendment. >> there is yet another provision the 20th amendment that conson plates his problem. if a president is elected, but not qualified to serve, maybe he hasn't been 14 years a resident, maybe he is not yet 35, maybe she is an insurrectionist and she has been disqualified in the 20th amendment says that the vice president serves until the president qualifies. >> reporter: so yesterday, i guess the development was that i realized let's just say the court does not come down and file on the immunity issue, but they don't come down squarely on the 14th amendment issue. the 20th amendment and kicks in, and there is congress, because congress did have a two thirds vote. but then again, after november, there is a new congress. paul,, cleans help me understand what the court is going through.

are we going to lean on the amendments on this one? >> i don't think so, but that does focus on the importance of donald trump's vice president selection. it is possible, that if congress rolls on the supreme court agrees that mr. trump is not qualified to be president, even after he's elected, then that office would go to his vice president. so, again it's important, not just for political reasons, but for constitutional reasons, still, that is not likely to happen again. the court is going to believe, given its problems with legitimacy already, that it does not want to be in the position of selecting the next president of the united states. >> reporter: we saw that in bush v. gore, right? >> reporter: yes, we did. they've done already. you had nikki haley last night at a rally in south carolina, and we don't even need to play

the sound. but she is responding to donald trump saying, oh, this is unfair. i'm being targeted, it is a witch hunt. and she's like, maybe it's fair, maybe it's not, as it relates to the e. jean carroll case. i think it's important to underscore that all of the cases that donald trump is facing, and whether they be criminal, or civil, or because of actions that he took. things that he himself did. >> reporter: and a jury of his peers found not only that he lied and defamed miss carroll, but that he sexually assaulted her. that is a matter of fact. we can never normalize is that someone, not a convicted criminal, because it was a civil act, he may be a convicted criminal by the time the election comes along, if the supreme court acts with this patch, and allows judge chutkan to have the trial that she says is ready to go in about a month from now. so if that happens you may even have a president with a criminal conviction. but right now, you've got a president who has been found

liable, not just again for sexual assault, but for defamation, and for running a bogus university, for running a fraudulent charity. the thing is, trump's want to delay. because one actually gets to court, he loses all the time. >> reporter: let me, say those donald trump himself, and the threat that donald trump post-democracy and some of these cases that are put front and center. there are also other cases that are happening that aren't necessarily specifically about donald trump, but to relate to our democracy, especially as we barrel towards a presidential election. so one of the big headlines from the past week is from a decision in the smartmatic case. which is a judge ruling the fox court must face 2.7 billion dollar defamation suit, and this is the, but but magic must also face foxes counterclaims. can you talk me through what that is going to look like, given the importance of fox in the conservative echo chamber? >> this is so huge, we're seeing defamation, not just donald trump-ing e. jean carroll, but we saw fox news,

and also rudy giuliani held liable. what is going on is kooky theories are nothing new. but now we are seeing this huge audience, a lot of white male grievance and other folks just heating up these conspiracy theories that make no sense. and they are profitable. so one fox news publicizes the big lie, and says things about voting machines, it makes lots of money from that info wars, but alex smith was making a huge amount of money. so what damages is about is a message to people who are defaming and lying. this is how much it's going to take to make you never do this again. >> reporter: sounds familiar. n.>> in trump's case, $83 million. first trial, $5 million. he was lying in defame that same day. so again, part of what the jury was concerned about in the case

that was decided on friday it was trump's crazy move of storming out the courtroom, that's not only disrespecting lawyers, that disrespecting the juror. so i think that might've doubled that amount then. but again, you're thinking, how much does it take to make people stop defaming shape freeman to stop telling lies about the sandy hook murders, and to make donald trump stop telling lies about the woman who he sexually assaulted. it might take billions of dollars for fox news, for alex jones. it might take $80 million, at least, for donald trump. we'll see. >> reporter: what does it say to you about chutkan's decision regarding the january six defendants moving up to april 2nd, you know, a month after thescheled trump trial in march, which people sensibly say probably won't happen

either is that sticking with the idea of the timeline, is that something that raises a concern, a flag or is it part of the process i was referring to earlier? >> he was ready to go march 4th, which is when it was originally scheduled for, because when they appealed the immunity issue, it's delayed. i think the judge understands the stick. the federal election interference trial is the only case that has any hope of going to trial before the election that hold trump accountable. it's true that in new york alvin brad might bring his case involving the hush money. even if trump is convicted, he's not going to jail. no one goes to jail for the first time conviction on those kinds of charges. and so judge chutkan understands that if those cases does not have a verdict before the election, and trump wins,

he would either appoint an attorney general who dismissed the charges, or he would target himself. and he can pardon himself, not just for the federal election case, but also for the other federal trial involving the classified documents in florida. so the judge understands that, for trump, surely, justice delayed is justice denied. >> reporter: this is why we have paul the table. but stick around, we have a lot more to talk to, about for sure. next on the weekend, how the former president and one of his codefendants have put fulton county d.a. fani willis on defense. and tomorrow, e. jean carroll and her attorneys will join rachel maddow live to discuss the verdict against donald trump, and the defamation trial. you can watch that interview on the rachel maddow show tomorrow, at nine pm eastern, right here on msnbc.

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district attorney fani willis has to respond by friday to claim that she is an improper romantic relationship with one of her lead prosecutors, and georgia's election interference case against donald trump. a hearing on the matter is scheduled to be held on february 15th. a former trump campaign official who was one of the defendants in the case brought the allegations forward this month. now, willis has since defended the qualifications of that lead

prosecutor, nathan weight. of course, trump's lawyers, they don't want to stop at just punishing willis and weighed over these accusations. they're also asking for the entire fulton county district attorney's office to be disqualified from the case. msnbc legal analyst and georgetown law professor paul butler is back with us. i want to play for everyone an excerpt of fani willis before mlk day. she addressed some of this, take a listen. >> reporter: i appoint three special counsel, it's as my right to do, paid them all the same hourly rate. bellini to attack one. first thing they say, oh, she's going to play the race card now. but nobody, isn't it them who's playing the race card with their only question? isn't it them playing the race card when they constantly think i need someone from some other

jurisdiction in some other state to tell me how to do a job i've been doing for almost 30 years? so d.a. fani willis, noting that they are attacking specific prosecutors. she never addresses any of the accusations, and let's be clear, and we weren't talking about this before we started, someone at this table referred to it as a boutique, all i won't name names. but the problem is not what she was doing. the problem is that they were taxpayer funds allegedly involved. paul? >> about that church parents, again, if you think about jack smith. he lets his legal pleadings speak for him. we haven't see him talk about the case outside the courtroom, i think of the appropriate model. i get why va milas is matt. up until this point, she's done everything fine. she got not one but two juries to find probable cause of the

former president and his codefendants committed racketeering, and election interference. she fought off efforts to get the case dismissed or moved to federal court. and she's rolled four defendants with many more to come. but this was an unforced error. she's got the biggest state criminal case, not just in the country, but probably the biggest state case in history. she knows that they are after her. and she gave them ammunition to try to bring her down. >> reporter: well back in the fall you called this? >> what i was thinking is about my experience as a public corruption prosecutor. and as a black person, my expertise, my competence, was questioned all the time. you get told to stay in your place, and our defense attorney told me one-time, rather than

going after his rich white client, i should be doing drug crimes in d.c.. the way that you respond to the hate, as everybody at this table knows, is with black excellence, with latinx genius, and for prosecutor, with that means is you when your cases. now she still can win. there is no formal reason why she has to be kicked off the case, under georgia law, there is a conflict of interest. but the prosecutor has a stake in the defendants conviction. there has not been any persuasive allegation that that is true. the problem is, number one, this will delay the proceedings even more, even if she's not kicked off the case. trump and defense will appeal. that will take more time, and the second, there's obviously now a big perception issue with this case. the public is not sure whether to have confidence in the investigation, and perhaps,

even, in the ultimate part. >> >> reporter: and that's the rub. it's not just here, to understand how it works in the side of this particular model system. they are, right now, looking at the same condom narratives regarding every other prosecutor that is coming out to trump, including jack smith. they're trying to find that thing that creates that perception, that public perception wedge that undermines the validity of the case. you stated at the beginning, she's done all right. she's gotten the jurors to ring the formal charges, that got donald trump in court, the process unfold the right way. but it is this little thing that now stands to derail perception ali what this case is about, and refocus it on her behavior as opposed to what donald trump did on that phone call, and all the other things, and that's the danger here for

a lot of prosecutors and other government officials. who are going after donald trump right now, rightfully, because donald trump, to your point, these are his actions at the core system is responding to. they are just not waking up in the middle of the night going, you know what, i think we're just gonna go out and prosecute donald trump for, i don't know, let's see if we can find some government documents. so this is the problem with this whole thing. >> yes, that's exactly, right michael, we can think about the stakes. one is a chilling effect that you just mentioned, any other state prosecutor was thinking about going after trump. they know that every single thing that they have ever done villa be examined, and rooted out. what that means is that, if your prosecutor, you need to understand. you have to be above the approach. the other stakes are about our democracy. again, if trump wins in november for jack smith, it is game over. this is the only case right now

in the country where, if trump, even if he wins, he can't pardon himself if he's convicted in georgia. so this is the only matter where he ultimately could be held accountable for the violence of the insurrection, and for the subversion of our democracy that was the big lie. >> reporter: and since he cannot pardon himself here, will take out the prosecutor along the way, and make it that much easier for him. >> reporter: friday, we're gonna see what fani willis has the same court. tell us, out fani, lord. >> reporter: you told us a lot, thank you so much for being at the table. next, the real world impact, how tens of thousands of women are now having to deal with the consequences. you're watching the weekend. you're watching the weekend. because you are greater than your bipolar 1, and you can help take control of your symptoms with vraylar. some medicines only treat the lows or highs. vraylar treats depressive, acute manic,

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you want to see who we are as americans? i'm peter dixon and in kenya... we built a hospital that provides maternal care. as a marine... we fought against the taliban and their crimes against women. and in hillary clinton's state department... we took on gender-based violence in the congo. now extremists are banning abortion and contraception right here at home. so, i'm running for congress to help stop them. for your family... and mine. i approved this message because this is who we are. you may know adam schiff's work to protect the rule of law, or to build affordable housing, or write california's patients bill of rights. but i know adam through the big brother program. we've been brothers since i was seven. he stood by my side as i graduated from yale, and i stood by his side when he married eve,

the love of his life. i'm a little biased, but take it from adam's little brother. he'll make us all proud as california senator. i'm adam schiff and i approve this message. >> reporter: there was an alarming new study this week that showed the real world effect of extreme abortion

restrictions in red states. the study in the journal of the american medical association found more than 64,000 women, 64,000 women and girls, had become pregnant as a result of rape in 14 states where abortion was completely ban after abortion was overturned. in many of those cases, 45% to be exact occurred in texas. texas makes no abortion exhibitions for survivors of abortion, and states that often do have abortion might enter their laws often have it to report the assault to law enforcement. the doctor who led the study had this to say from the katie phang show. >> fundamentally, what it means is that it is virtually impossible for survivors to obtain abortion care or, honestly, other medical services as well. you know, they may feel distrustful of law enforcement, they may be in a relationship with an abuser who has

threatened them, that they can't travel safely, even within their own city. so there are many reasons why survivors choose not to report, and that does not mean that they don't deserve medical care, including abortion. >> reporter: joining us now, reproductive freedom for all president and ceo, mini timmaraju, many, this study was so disturbing. when i first saw it, and the conversation about exceptions is also disturbing. because we know, in many of the places where there are exceptions, exceptions still don't apply. women are not able to get the health care that they need, and health care is an abortion. >> exceptions are political tactic, let's be clear. they're not designed to work. the kate cox examples one of the most clear ones to illustrate this point. these exceptions are designed to not be enforced. who, especially, a rape victim, it's going to hire an attorney, gather documentation, go to

court, go to a hospital administrative board to explain why they should follow an exception for abortion. abortion is lifesaving health care. in these cases, a state like texas, my home state, if you're going to be a state of forced birth, how are you then going to put these women in this situation, it is really horrific. >> reporter: the president was in virginia on tuesday, you are with the president, right? >> yes. >> reporter: and he had some words about this in a speech. take a listen. >> the idea that a woman should have to carry a fetus after she's been raped, or the victim of incest, is outrageous. folks, the extreme laws passed by job had no place in the united states of america. but what does have a place is your voice. give me a democratic house of representatives. give me a bigger democratic senate.

and we will pass a new law restoring the protection of roe v. wade, and i will sign it immediately. >> reporter: it's been the most exhausted conversation about the saliency of this issue is that the farther we got from the legal decision to overturn roe, all of a sudden, people would forget. if anything, there's a sense the hope that this issue has gotten harder. the more the kate cox stories coming forward, the video of kate cox's has been saying, we thought we understood what was happening on state. we did not know that it would apply to cases like ours. the more this has lived, and the more that you have the biden campaign pushing this idf front and center. the saliency is there. people are still going to come out and vote on this. >> absolutely. and i think it's important to your first point. the longer these abortion bans are in place, and the more crazy these laws get, and the longer we see the effects, the more kate cox's are going to come forward. the more stories you will penetrate of public consciousness.

so it is just as logical, thankfully, that the cases will start to stack up, that inherently makes it more salient. but yes, the doubling down by magic stream us on the other side, refusing to give any inch on this issue. every time we've gone to court, every time we've had a ballot initiative, they will take us to court to challenge the base of these ballot initiatives. they can't help themselves. they are so, so committed to this extremist division of the country, that even when republican voters cross over with us on this issue, lawmakers and policy makers can't let it go. look at my johnson's in the house. try to pass two nasty anti-abortion bills just in the next couple of weeks. so this issue will continue to be in the news, and it will continue to be a driver because the extreme contrast between the parties is going to get more and more stark. >> reporter: at a base level, that extreme aga is winning on this issue because they are writing the laws of the state

legislature. so the question becomes, i get the idea of the polling back, and wanted to do the federal law. doing that for the republicans federal ban, but also, as the president noted, putting in place a federal bill that restores the tenants of roe. but for me, it seems the action is also at the state level. in a state like texas, and elsewhere, what is the strategy to go use the term target those who are writing these laws. because that is where it begins. i've always believed that this was something the states will work out and then very much is worth seeing. in some other cases. some federal system didn't come in and sort of started all out. but that process has not really started yet, and those laws are getting rid, and so what efforts are being done or taken to change the people who are

writing the laws? who are>> reporter: because the doing that. is there some strategy for just a federal thing? or are we going to see what they do at the state level? >> all of the above. virginia, case and point. one of the reasons it was so powerful for the president to go to virginia's the virginia democrats really around the table on glenn youngkin. remember, this was supposed to be the big republican, compassionate, we're gonna find a middle path. a 15-week ban is not a ban. it's a compromise, and they just shut that down. and that was really important and they were able to flip the legislature to block and tackle folks like when you look, and who are supposed to be a moderate. so that's the strategy. you've got the democratic legislation campaign committee, you've got the democratic a.g.'s. even got the democratic secretary of state working on the voting rights issues that are compounded by these, extreme gerrymandering, the erosion of democracy in these key states. so you're going to see really

significant fights for state legislatures and houses and also bowed initiatives go hand in hand, because when you passed about initiative, who's going to propagate the policy based on that? we're seeing some of those right now in ohio. and use of to have a federal solution. because in places like kate cox's home, my home, in texas, we are not changing that legislature anytime soon. we can't live in the segregated society, but we have rights in california but i don't have rights in texas. because the federal bill codifying a law across the 50 states is moral obligation. and we cannot ban in those states. >> reporter: abortion will now be on the ballot in florida, and kate cox is coming to the state of the union as a guest of the first lady and the president. victor mirage you, thank you very much for your time, your insights, all the things. we appreciate it. next, our folks, we're going to talk to health and human services secretary javier becerra, about what the biden

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some republican leaders to the january six rioters. here is district judge reusser lambert, who called the rhetoric, preposterous, saying, quote, the court fears that such destructiveness guided rhetoric could pre-stage further parts of the country. judge lambert was responding to republicans, including donald trump, who described the riders as hostages. joining us now, former january six committee investigator mark's children's. welcome. it is an interesting term that we see these individuals who everyone witnessed do what they did, and intuitively know that is not right, it's bad behavior. they are insurrectionists. they're doing these things. then they're now suddenly not viewed that way by some of the party. you have liz cheney, for example correcting at least phonic, who is completely done a one 80 on this issue, noting that they're no longer

insurrectionists, their hostages. how does that play out in terms of the work that the committee did, and what do people need to know and understand firmly about why that is such a wrong approach in point of view? >> there is an unrelenting desire to double down on the big lie. and it is becoming very mainstream, from political leaders, from folks like the congresswoman. and we're seeing it play out in court with defendants. it was not unusual that, when i was sitting down to opposing these rioters, they would say the same talking points that we see beers making about it just being a peaceful protest, or worse to that effect. and the judge here really seems annoyed and triggered by these claims that are becoming so mainstream. but that's important take a step back and take a look at this himself. he stormed the capitol, he was the one who was walking on the senate galleries. he was one of the people that was directly responsible for the members having to be evacuated, and someone having to run away into safety.

and he showed a lack of remorse, and it was hard to see them take issue with that remorse, and the part is that he was also sentenced to another 60 days in jail to have that because of his lack of remorse. >> reporter: you know, the 2024 election is ten months away, donald trump is already beginning to cast doubt on that election. if it will be fair, he's talking about the weaponization of government, even though, again, all of the consequences essentially donald trump is facing, he bought kwan himself. he did this in 2016, and he did this in 2020. no one should've been surprised that on election night, or after that, election week, when donald trump got up there and claimed that he won and didn't let it go. do you think folks are prepared for what potentially could happen at this time? there is a pattern here that donald trump has established. >> a pattern is exactly right.

you look at people who run for office because they care about democracy, it's either and i win or lose, it's double the people. but when donald trump runs for office, it's an eye when, or i was cheated. and one of the things things i did when i found the jenner six committee and when i went back and stop the studio, i went back and counted, how long before began? it started 2012, obama versus romney. trump said that president obama must of cheated. that's how we came to national providence. he came to marchand providence. and he wanted to stop a deal that was originated, and it was during the primary. because he thought it was always the primary. it is really good quote from senator cruz at the time who was saying, no. people aren't stealing their votes, trump. people to start voting for you. but then it went back in his back pocket, because he won the primary, and fast for the 2018 midterms. again, we see voter fraud. claims that this whole prosecution issue, if you're engaging in voter fraud because of the midterms and the congressman getting back to

democrats. and then in 2020, we see the combination of how that played out. if i don't cote -- this is a playbook. it is not a racial idea. this amid comes up every time is ripe for office. >> reporter: given that it is a playbook if you are an attorney on the biden reelect. but what kinds of preparation people in place for the possibility some will argue the inevitability. that donald trump will question the results of a fair and free election. >> i think that something really try to think about, taking these words seriously, making sure that members are being smart about the way they're talking about the election and the way that the elections are paired out and our security. and i think you just have to really examine how to put out in the court last time. how to play with grassroots movements in the past. and trying to take measures to trust our system because that's the key to democracy. >> reporter: assad important point, and for me, i'd be

curious about how you guys look at this lack of faith in a system that is one of the most secure in the world. and is it just the rhetoric of a politician, a two bit politician, who stands up and goes, oh, well, because they cheated, people don't, go oh the system is corrupt, it's broken. when there really is no clear evidence ever that that is a consistent problem in our system to the point that every election is questionable, because, as we know, those ballots that donald trump was on that republican senators, congressman, state legislators have claimed that it was a stolen election will do. that means your election, your seat is questionable. because that ballot, you just can't segregate. you see the breakdown in the logic. how do we get here on that timeline, as you noted, it did not start distance 16.

it is an element within the system, and what is this system? >> reporter: i think it's a money system, it's a fact that these monies systems do not pop up organically. it's people who are very interested in making sure to keep on the target. >> it's coordinated. i think that's the point you're making. it is not just the members who are saying this. it is coordinating with people who can give it a voice like an ali alexander type. it is for people who are talking about the actual regal shad kyi that goes behind a -- >> reporter: to the point that coronation, you had the former president on the trail avoiding cash for telling cash patel for having kids water. there is also in ink glow system where people are rewarded for that behavior. >> reporter: and there is a system that is in place that aims to reduce fraud across the country as it relates to.

because folks say there is no such thing as that. to be clear, there is point 000, 3% of what it doesn't go. >> reporter: a yes. >> reporter: there is a system in place every secretary of state used often and to alicia's point about it being coordinated, there has been a systematic dismantling of participation in that system for more than a decade. >> reporter: and it's unfortunate, because the very same system that the secretary of state has opted into, a lot of republican states opted out of. so now they're crying file because out of the system that is the appropriate check yeah. but it's important though, because the rewards of these leaders matter. this is one of our biggest template from the committee, is that individuals who are just saying exactly what their secretaries of state or saying, what the former president was saying. i mean, i had one witness tell me that if i can't believe the words that are coming from the commander-in-chief, who can i believe? and that is a powerful statement. some of the people can try to

reiterate in every hearing throughout the report is that who elect to lead, our states and our country because the voters are going to believe what they tell them. >> reporter: i want to say thank, you marcus. and the work of the committee. a filly reason why any reason why donald trump is facing accountability because of the january six committee. without it, he'll be walking around here fully. thank you so much, reporter -- thank you so much for coming to the table. we appreciate you. >> next, the rnc chair putting her thumb on the scale for guess who, donald trump, why that could be the something problems down the road for rhonda mcdaniel in the party. and be sure to follow us across social media are handle everywhere is weak at event, msnbc. we'll be right back, folks, grab another cup of coffee. grab another cup of coffee. don't take if allergic to nurtec. allergic reactions can occur, even days after using. most common side effects were nausea, indigestion, and stomach pain. ask about nurtec odt.

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who's winning? no idea. real milk. real delicious. and don't forget to try some delicious, creamy lactaid ice cream. what's that mabel? (mooo) wow, smart cow! >> reporter: but you don't see this one coming, republican national committee chair ronnell mcdaniels has changed her tune about the party's nomination process. after pledging it to remain neutral in the 2024 primary, here is what she had to say following donald trump's victory in new hampshire. >> i'm looking at the math and the path going forward. we need to unite around our eventual nominee, which is going to be donald trump. [laughs] >> reporter: i remember someone who is once chairman of the rnc

being asked similar questions and taking a slightly different tact. >> reporter: yes, i remember back in the 2010 cycle of reports as we get a couple of controversial races in delaware, and utah, and a few other places. and reporters asking me, chairman, would you intercede, would you push those -- senate races, even some sleet legislator races. so my response was, no. let the process run. let the voters decide whom they want. it is not on me as national chair to tell a candidate to get out of a race, when that candidate is in a two-person race, and, by all metrics, did relatively well against the front runner. and so, to me, you know. >> reporter: explain she's doing. here >> reporter: she's doing what trump wants or to do. >> reporter: because she fears

him? >> reporter: no, because she was told what to do. so she's doing what donald trump tells. her look, this is the same woman whose name was ronna romney mcdaniel's. donald trump did not like romney. told to take it out, stop using the name. so, yeah, she is done with donald trump told him to do. the party is locked step on this, and nikki haley has of right now to make as much good trouble as she can in this primary. yes, it's an uphill climb for, her but the party has no place to tell her to step out. that is her choice, her donors choice, the voters choice, to help her make. but that is not one of the party should make. >> reporter: she's gonna make it in a week or so anyway, because she is on the cusp herself. i do think, to your point about, what is she doing. it just really goes to show how far the pendulum has swung. i referred senator sanders in

2015, 2016. and they're all kind of qualms that some of my former colleagues, and even some of senator sanders reporters from that race have about the democratic national committee. some of them, many of them, at, argue are not correct. but i cannot imagine the dnc chairwoman at the time coming out and saying, senator sanders, it's time to get out of the race. even the hillary clinton people at that time would've said, mom, ma'am, that is not something we should be doing here. so it's going to backfire. so this is just, it is so not how it's done. it goes just reinforce how this, is again, a thrown election. >> there is interesting alliteration when you said matt and pat, like, oh, that's a hard thing to get at. okay, i get the math on the path as it relates to the primary, they, are of course, choosing to ignore the more important math empath, which is what happens in the general election. >> yeah but you can't your general that winning a primary. and i think there's a lot of people that, look, i am glad

that nikki haley stood up and said, i am not going to be forced out of here. i think that's lovely. i think she is standing on business, i don't know where the business is going, but she standing on it. but there is just, i don't care with the numbers are between nikki haley, with the proverbial numbers are between nikki haley and joe biden and the general election. you've got to win a primary, and nikki haley is unable to win the primary. >> reporter: she may be unable to win a primary, but it is still not in the place of a national property to tell her that she has to stand out from her campaign. that is not their choice to make. and every republican of the 160 members that make up the rnc know that. they know better. because if the shoe were on the other foot, they would be screaming foul if someone were telling donald trump he had to stand down. so the reality of it is, trump controls this process in the end. that's why we're here right now with the national chairwoman, telling nikki haley to step out. nikki, you continue to do you,

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