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sunday, january 28th. in the washing, velshi on msnbc. i'm charles coleman junior, filling in for my friend and colleague, ali velshi. and we've got a lot to talk about. we start this morning with the trials of donald trump. now he's had his day in court, and just like that, he's been ordered by a jury of his peers to pay 83 point $3 million to e. jean carroll for repeatedly defaming her. and how does he respond to this? of course, he went to vegas. the campaign valley, and we can have before that was replete with a typical vitriol, hatred, and lies, that we've come to expect in the twice impeached, multiplied republican front runner. however, instead of focusing on his primary part in nikki haley,

trump largely directed as verbal assault president joe biden. now this is understandable, and it actually makes more sense for his political economy. primary season may have just begun, but let's be real. this primary race is pretty much all but over. president joe biden is going to be the democratic nominee, and donald trump is almost certainly going to win the republican nomination. this comes after he decisively won iowa and new hampshire, even as he barely showed up. now with several weeks to go before the nevada and south carolina contest, along with super tuesday, trump's attention is also focused on his many legal troubles. these are all ramping up in the coming days. this week alone, we expect to learn trump's faith in the new york civil fraud case. judge engoron, hoping trump has routinely -- who trump has routinely ridiculed and dismissed, says he plans to issue judgment by january 31st, which this upcoming wednesday. trump is facing $370 million in

fines, and he could also be banned from doing real estate business in new york. he is already vowed that he's going to appeal this decision. and then, the following thursday, on february 8th, the supreme court's hearing all arguments in the 14th amendment case. now that is the case that seeks to bar trump from the ballot in colorado because of his role in inciting an insurrection. and,, of course, we are all still waiting to hear from the d.c. court of appeals regarding trump's broad claims of, quote, absolute immunity which have become even more outrageous of late on social media if you've been paying attention. joining me now is msnbc legal analyst and former u.s. attorney for michigan's eastern district, my friend, and colleague superlawyer, barbara mcquade. she's also the author of the upcoming book, attack from within, how disinformation is sabotaging america. and, melissa redmon is also with me. she is a former deputy district

attorney in fulton county, georgia, she is also an msnbc legal analyst, thank you both for being here. barbara, i wanted to start with, you my friend. donald trump has done his best to basically create one legal issue out of all of his cases by targeting this and blaming it on the biden doj, saying it is the deep state, and president biden who is orchestrating the entire thing, regardless of whether it is alvin bragg, fani willis, letitia james. this is all, apparently, the work of joe biden, but do you think that this is going to have any substantive impact in the court of public opinion? and i am taking my glasses off, because i'm talking to two lawyers. [laughs] >> as you say, i've spent some time talking about misinformation and researching disinformation. and this is what trump does best. every one of these posts against all the prosecutors, whether their state prosecutors, or federal prosecutors, tries to suggest that they are all the puppets of joe biden. of course, nothing could be

further from the truth. states operate on their own independently from the federal system, and even in the federal system, merrick garland appointed a special counsel to be independent from the usual chain of coming in the department of justice. so they are exercising independent assisting. i think the place where the rubber will meet the road is when we have juries making decisions in these cases, just as we saw in the e. jean carroll case, you can blame the judge all day if you want to, when you've got members of the public an actual citizens of america making these decisions, i think is going to be much harder to say that this is all political theater, and a hoax, and a witch hunt. >> reporter: melissa, a lot of people who are watching me believe that lawyers are just lawyers and, attorneys are just attorneys. but you, barbara, and i, all know that there are some lawyers who have never seen the inside of the courtroom, and couldn't find a seat there if they wanted to. so, as a trial attorney, talk to me, just make it plain for the viewers. how bad the lawyering that we've seen this past week, and

a few weeks before that, in both of trump's new york civil trials has actually been. because some people may not really understand, this is really troublesome from a trial attorney's perspective. >> it is very difficult to be a trial attorney. not only do you have to keep up with the changes in the law, you have to know so many aspects of the law. not just the criminal statutes, or the civil statutes that play. but the rules of procedure, and the rule of evidence, so if you are more of a transactional attorney, more of an allen, missed more of a consultant, it is not advisable to step foot in a courtroom and go to trial. even if you are a trial lawyer, knee as a state prosecutor would never step foot in a federal courtroom and try a case that is the same a state court because completely different there they're completely different rules, completely different procedures so you have to know what you don't know and in order to add to your client's best interest and i think that is a problem that we saw in this case.

>> reporter: barb, for people who don't understand, we've already heard from donald trump that he is planning to appeal the verdict, in the judgment, in the e. jean carroll case. do you think, in your estimation, what is the likelihood that miss carroll receives a dime from donald trump at any point? putting aside this verdict, but also the fact that he intends to appeal this, can you give us a sense of that process, and how long could take, and what that could mean for the actual payment of miss carroll from this judgment? >> yes. i think eventually should get paid. certainly donald trump has a right to appeal, and he'll do that. but one thing to keep in mind is that, in this case, the judge was relying on the prior finding by a different journey that donald trump has sexually assaulted e. jean carroll, and yet this danger. this case is really all about just the damages. so that's really the extent of the issues for appeal in this case. oftentimes, a defendant will say that the amount of the

award was too high, and in appeals court will reduce it. that could possibly happen in this case. but i think one of the arguments that e. jean carroll has going in her favor is that donald trump not only did favors again after that jury verdict in the spring, where she got $5, 000, or $5 million. but during the trial itself, he continued to post on a truth social, continued to boast defamatory things. so the bulk of the damages in this case, what's called punitive damages, it's designed not so much to compensate e. jean carroll, but to punish donald trump, for violating the law with impunity. so even though that number may be reduced, it is still going to be a very substantial number. how long can it take? appeals courts to that process can take a long time. it can be many months, perhaps even a year, i don't think she'll get paid in 2024. but i think she will get paid in 2025. i don't know if she's gonna get the $83 million, but she will get double digits millions of dollars from donald trump. >> reporter: barb, you're gonna

finish in a punitive damages is exactly where people come to velshi. because this is a subtext. you are taking a law school class, so thank you for that. melissa, we're going to switch gears a little bit, and go into your backyard, listen, you knew it was coming. you know i'm gonna ask about it. fani willis, under fire, ethical questions, ethical considerations regarding an alleged inappropriate relationship with one of the people who work in her office. a special prosecutor who was appointed to the trump case. two part here. number one, is this a question of where there is smoke, there is fire, or is this more an attempt to essentially sully the name of fani willis, being casting dispersion court of public opinions about her office, and the work that they are doing? and the second part is, is it actually going to matter in terms of the prosecution of donald trump in his 18 other codefendants have been indicted with in this case? >> let me answer your second question first, because it plays into the first. does it actually matter?

ultimately, are these allegations going to result in a dismissal of this criminal case, even if, by chance, it results in a disqualification of either fani willis and her office. and the answer to that is no. there is nothing about the actual evidence gathered that charges against them, that would mean any alleged improper relationship between attorneys on the same side says that there is some type of prejudiced against the defendants, and the way that evidence is scattered, and the way that evidence can be used, whether that evidence will be admissible against them in a criminal case. now the problem is with that, whether or not that offense is disqualified, the most problematic allegation is that there has been any type of personal benefit from the -- awarding this contract to mr. wade. and whether she benefited at all. again, i think that's going to be an ethical question, it is maybe a pr question, and maybe an hr question. but it is not a constitutional

question as to whether or not that impacts the right of the accused on trial, and whether not that issue is resolved in any effect, and whether that case moves forward. if someone disagrees, if judge mcatee disagrees, then the state will have to appoint another prosecutor to prosecute the case, whether or not there is a prosecutor in the state that would be willing to prosecute the case is yet another unanswered question. but, ultimately, i do think some of that, because it is unlikely that if these allegations are true, that will result either in the dismissal of the indictment, or disqualification of the entire office. then you have to ask whether or not some of those allegations were made, in the way that they were made. especially if you read the motion, and the way the motion is worded. two, to raise these questions. putting outside influence of questioning the decision making of the prosecutor, whether or not it was made thoroughly. because what you have to believe based on the motion is that the only reason this case is being prosecuted is so that,

one of the reasons of cases being prosecuted is so that d.a. willis could perform this particular person, so that she could somehow benefit from going on vacations. and i think that is heartbreaking for anyone to believe. but it does create distraction, and it does create the ability for this conversation to happen, which distracts from the substance of the case itself, and the evidence against the accused, as to whether or not they should be prosecuted for this particular indictment. >> reporter: two words you did not say, melissa, that i'm gonna be unafraid to say. sexism and white nationalism. as it relates to these allegations, and i was going to leave that to where it is. barbara mcquade, and melissa redmond, thank you both for joining me from this first conversation today, on our second hour of velshi. still to come, emigration in america's southern border have been two of donald trump's favorite talking points from the moment that he came down the escalator in 2016.

and now, he's trying to take a bipartisan border deal. how does that help his campaign and his brand? and, taxes an is here. we will investigate how race is woven into our tax system, and all of that, and more, coming up, on velshi. up, on velshi. with chase freedom unlimited, you can cashback 3% on dining including take-out. cashback on flapjacks, baby backs, or the tacos at the taco shack. nah, i'm working on my six pack. well, good luck with that. earn big with chase freedom unlimited with no annual fee. a force to be reckon with. no, not you saquon.

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msnbc. i'm charles coleman junior, filling in for ali today. it's day 114 of the israel gaza war. the death toll in gaza now surpasses 26,200, according to a ministry of health in gaza. the idf is focusing its finding on the city of khan yunis, in southern gaza, and it's pushing palestinians to flee further south to areas that are packed

to the brim with refugee camps. meanwhile, cia director william burns is meeting with ar-israeli, egyptian, and qatari officials in paris to tempt to broker a deal to release them remaining israel hostages being held by hamas. msnbc news -- the ntours of a deal to release hostages in gaza are indeed coming together, but nothing is guaranteed yet. the new york times does say that the deal being discussed would pause fighting in gaza for two months, in exchange for it 100 hostages. this deal however is not imminent. joining me now is nbc news foreign correspondent matt bradley, he's in jerusalem, matt can you give us the latest on the hostage negotiations please? >> as you mentioned, we are seeing william burns, the cia chief meeting with -- israel and egypt as well. reportedly as the prime minister of qatar, -- coming into sharper focus, what

we've been hearing is that this would be a much more substantial deal than what we saw in november. that was what freed more than 100 hostages originally and led to about a week long pause that both sides accused the other of eventually violating. this, it sounds like, could last for weeks and weeks and, we heard from our own kier simmons who reported from hamas officials saying that they have softened their position on this. we heard from the israelis that they are also encouraged about this position, that they seem like they're going to be coming together because before it was only just a couple of days ago their two positions seemed absolutely opposed to each other. hamas had insisted that it wouldn't be releasing more than 100 remaining hostages, including six americans, unless israel agreed to a complete and total cease-fire. the israelis had totally rule that out, and we have been speaking with some relatives, of some of these hostages, who have been there now for nearly four months as this fighting in gaza continues, and they said

that they were cheered by the fact that william burns had been sent to paris in order to try and deal with these negotiations, and it looks as though the entire world is trying to get these hostages released, but we've also been hearing from the white house that a deal is not imminent. it's still though is a big development that we're seeing all these group meeting together, all these different negotiators trying to incur deal, trying to bring everybody to the table and bridge what was an enormous gap between the different parties, that is going to be injecting some optimism in a situation for the last several months has just seemed hopeless. charles? >> that was nbc's news matt bradley, thank you for joining us from jerusalem. up next on velshi, i'll be joined by dorothy brown, a georgetown professor that is used data to uncover just how race is entrenched in america's tax code. she'll explain what needs to be done after to fix the system after a short break on velshi.

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into tax law because she didn't want to deal with race at work. she's a black woman, a black woman academic from the south bronx. she says she faced racism every day of her life, so when it came to choosing her career, she went with math because numbers. with numbers, there is no way that something that is as straightforward and numerical as the tax system could deal with race, right? dorothy brown says quote, i've never been so wrong about something in my life. after getting her law degree and then her masters in tax law, brown was helping her parents with their taxes when she noticed something odd. they were married, but they didn't seem to benefit from the tax breaks that one should expect to see from a married

couple. dorothy brown dug in, and quickly discovered that the irs does not collect or published data for race the same way they do for gender or for age. that caused ground to begin to dig deeper, and deeper. she says she became a detective, looking at the history of different tax laws. she looked at who benefits from most tax breaks in lupus, and who doesn't. take her parents marriage, for example. marriage tax cuts only benefits single wage earner households or couples where one worker makes significantly more than the other. so for example, a household where both make -- they're not going to get the tax cut, and as it turns out, households with equal earners that have to full-time workers, they're more likely to be black. by contrast, households where there is a single wage earner, where one spouse can afford to stay home and not work, those are significantly more likely

to be white. through arduous study and research, brown uncovered a long list of ways that both tax law and the many other systems that impact wealth generation tend to favor white americans and also disadvantage black americans, in her book, the widest of wealth, how the tax system impoverish is black americans and how we can fix it, was published in 2021 since then, brown has been appointed to the treasury advisory committee on racial equity,, under treasury secretary dan yellen. brown and her other committees comembers have made recommendations on how to address racial equity matters within the tax code. she recently said in an interview with npr that despite the boards work and recommendations, quote we have not seen much progress at all. joining me now is dorothy brown, professor of law at georgetown university, and member on the advisory committee on racial equity at the department of the treasury.

good morning, thank you so much for being here. dorothy, you said in an interview with npr's marketplace recently that you have not seen a whole lot of interest in just this conversation about centering race and racially equity within the treasury, why do you think that is? >> because treasury doesn't see racial equity is something they should be focusing on, they haven't historically, they did lip service to it undersecretary yellen, but when the treasury advisement committee makes recommendations like you should really have a path forward on collecting data by race, because you shouldn't depend on an academic like dorothy browne to uncover the racial biases in our tax code. there's a stanford steady that came out last year that showed if you are black and you filed for the income tax credit, you are 3 to 5 times more likely to be audited then if you are not black. that needs to be fleshed out,

the treasury should be at the front, at the forefront of this, we made the recommendation in march of last year and we have seen very little progress. data is critical. the irs and treasury publish a lot of data about a lot of things, but not about race, and i'm very disappointed in secretary yellen not moving our recommendations forward faster. >> this is such an important conversation because there are so many of us within our community, within black america, who feel at like there are things systemically that hold us back, or that are pressing on us in different ways but we can't prove it we can point to it. so when you bring up the notion of data, i want to bring -- underscore how valuable an imperative that is. dorothy, you're a friend to velshi and the show, and you spoke to ali about three years ago, and you said one of the things that was most important there was for the irs to collect and publish data on race the same way they do with age and gender.

president biden's racial equity order back in 2021, that actually affirmed that. from a policy place, what do you think has to happen in order to bring that into a reality, is the pressure to be applied in the treasury, is it to be applied to legislatures, is it a combination of both, or do you think it's in the courts where this needs to be fought? >> it's very simple. the white house needs to pick up the phone and tell treasury secretary yellen they meant what they said in the racial equity order, and they expect progress on the treasury advisement committees recommendations forthwith. it's not complicated. we have a path forward, we recommended how to get it done, and the white house needs to step up and say we meant it. we need this aggregated data by race in the treasury and irs, we have it had, we have it at the department of labor we know how many people ride bicycles, but we don't know how taxpayers paid their taxes by race, it is

a sin and a shame. >> i'm glad you brought up those examples of other places in government that already are doing this, because what it does is it eliminates the argument that we don't ever do this, we never look at these statistics, the fact that there are models that exist across other agencies is so critical for building a model that is consistent across all government agencies. >> i'm sorry, i actually call it treasuries exceptionalism. they are the outlier here. >> that's important to point out, and i'm glad you did. back in 2020, there were a lot of folks from different communities, a lot of white americans for example who had questions about how to show up how, to be allies. and right now you said it's important for right americans to engage with the subject of racism and wealth accumulation, and racism in the tax system as well. you've mentioned that this sort of allyship is helpful and impactful for americans to be

forthcoming about intergenerational wealth and about their experiences with wealth building. this is not done to shame anyone for what they've been able to achieve, but to help illuminate the issues around disparities. can you talk about how critical this piece of allyship is for people who are invested in building greater equity? >> it's very important, because you may be sitting at your black employee, you may be sitting at the cubicle next to your white colleague, and your white colleague is sending their children with the same salary, which is a big assumption based on the labor market, but with the same salary your next door cube cubicle person can send their kids to private school, lives in a really nice house, and you're like how come i can't make it work. you blacken ploy, if you're -- your more like this and money to your parents, your white peer is more likely to get money from their parents, and it's white americans talk more

about this hidden wealth, what i call inter family transfers, then black americans see we're not doing anything wrong, we've got a cat tax system that we are paying for but that is stripping us of wealth, we have a treasury secretary that doesn't seem to want to move the ball forward and we have this intergenerational wealth advantage that white americans have that often don't want to talk about, but i will say charles, since my book came out i've gotten emails from one americans telling me their story and saying i want to be an ally, and let me tell you how my whiteness help me financially. >> charlie brown, thank you so much for your important work. >> we've got breaking news out of the middle east today, u.s. centcom announced moments ago that three service members were killed, and 25 more injured, from a one-way attack that hit a base in northeast jordan. this is near the syrian border.

this comes as midst heightened regional tensions, and the breaking stories developing, we will continue to bring the latest on it as we get more information, right here on msnbc. we will be back on velshi. i.

welcome back. we are learning more about the breaking news out of the middle east. president biden has now issued a statement saying that the attack was undertaken by iranian-backed militants operating in syria and iraq.

u.s. centcom in and out senate minutes ago that three mueller service members were killed today, and 25 more injured from a one-way attack by an unmanned drone that hit a base in northeast jordan. this is near the syrian border. it comes amidst heightened regional tensions, and amid an uptick in attacks on u.s. forces by iranian-backed militants in the region. this breaking story is continuing to develop, we will bring you the latest on it as we have it, right here on msnbc. switching gears to politics. the black vote will be crucial to president biden's reelection in november, but his support among black voters is sketchy. in 2020, biden captured 92% of the black vote, according to nbc news exit polling. but the new york's time siena college survey released in november's shows his support among -- six key battleground states is at 71%, while trump is sitting at 22%. to be clear, it is doubtful

that donald trump could actually pull in 22% of the black vote, but the lack of enthusiasm for the biden harris ticket is palpable. especially among black men. with that in mind, i traveled along with msnbc correspondent jermaine lee across the country to have candid conversations, real dialogue with every i.d. of black man. from lawmakers to celebrities, to civil rights icons to every day blackmon in community, we wanted to take their pulse, ahead of one of the most important elections of our time, you can catch all these discussions next sunday right here on msnbc at nine pm eastern in a new special called black man in america the road to 2020 41 of the black when we spoke to is none other than brooklyn zone, the house democratic leader, hakeem jeffries. and a wide ranging interview at his office on capitol hill,

jeffries discuss the likely path to congress and whether america has kept his promise to people who look like me. >> brother later, thank you for having us. >> great to be with you. >> it's been a long time since i was chasing you in the state house in albany. a lot has changed. i wonder how you've evolved, but also how your experience as a black man in america has shaped to your leadership style, especially in this new role. >> from my perspective, i transitioned from my prior position as chair of the house democratic caucus to house democratic leader, was an extraordinary change, and i thought about it in the context of myself, growing up born in brooklyn hospital, raised in the cornerstone baptist church, coming of age in the midst of the crack cocaine epidemic, and then being able to emerge to serve in the house of representatives, and ultimately lead the democratic party in

the congress, that it was a classic example that this principle in america of representative democracy, of government of the people, by the people, and for the people, isn't just a concept, because that is what, the framework is actually aspired to create, they may not have envisioned someone named hakeem jeffries in this particular position, but they did aspire to this concept of the house in particular being the closest to the american people, and reflecting the hopes, the dreams, the aspirations, the fears the, concerns, the anxieties, and the passions of the american people, in part informed by their life experiences. we know that the number of black men in graduate schools is continuing to dwindle, and then we also are keenly aware of the wealth gap, which is up to seven times as high for white families and white men as

compared to black men. even if you do the right thing, go to school, get a degree, you're still walking out likely to make 15 to 20% less, and finding yourself struggling to be a part of that american dream. had has america made good on his promise to blackmon, and if so how so, and if not, how not? >> it was frederick douglass that once made the observation that it is easier to build strong children than it is to repair a broken man. he said that in the 18 hundreds. it's a principle that still applies today, and so i think what it requires is certainly given a lot of the obstacles and institutional barriers that have existed for many african american men in terms of achieving their full potential for us to lean in aggressively in preparation, in education, in combatting mass incarceration, in making sure that in every single zip code is access to employment

opportunities, entrepreneurship, as well as homeownership. over the last several years, i think statistically it's clear that a lot of progress has been made for the african american community generally, and for african american men specifically in terms of the stewardship of president joe biden. it may not be felt to the degree that it should but things have moved in the right direction. but for decades we've been so far behind that when you look at the broader picture it's clear to anyone that there are many different challenges that remain. >> just like you, that was my first time actually seeing this. and i couldn't be more excited for next sunday, please be sure to tune in for this very important conversation. again, black men in america, the road to 2024 is going to air february 4th at nine pm eastern, only on msnbc.

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msnbc, i'm charles coleman junior sitting in for my friend, ali, today. four months republicans in congress have been holding up a

much-needed aid package for ukraine, and they are demanding that the deal be tied to border security. republicans were holding their ground, and it actually appeared to be working. democrats in congress and the white house started making concessions on immigration in order to make progress on the bill. on friday, president biden even said he would quote, shut down the border when it becomes overwhelmed. that's the day he signed the bipartisan bill. but now, suddenly, some republicans don't want the border bill that they've been pushing so hard for. the fate of the deal is now in doubt because donald trump expressed opposition to it. of course trump wants to take a border deal because gridlock on immigration allows him to ramp up his racist xenophobic attacks. it works directly with his whole campaign style. yesterday, trump alcester on truth social -- eight is the worth border deal in the history of the world. the world, y'all.

an open wound, in our once great country. terrorists are pouring in, unchecked, from all over the world. he says again, the world. there is now a 100% chance that there will be major terror attacks in the u.s.. close the border, and quote. joining me now to unpack all of this are two of my favorites -- who is the host of the dino medulla show on -- and msnbc daily columnist and one of my favorite social media follows, and joining him is also mali -- shoes a special correspondent for vanity fair and the host of the vast politics podcast. and she tweets to. molly, so let's just be very straightforward about this. donald trump would rather have -- there's a saying that sometimes there is more benefit in expediency, then -- in solving it. donald trump seems to be much more content to have this problem exist then to actually do something about it, is that

fair? >> yeah. i don't think donald trump wants to manage this problem or solve it. i want to point out with the reason we're talking about this is because this is the only thing trump has to run on. right? the economy is getting much better, the labor market continues to be tight, inflation is down, america is a neck exporter of natural gas, there is a reason why we are here. i think it's important just to take a minute to think about that, because this is not -- yes, the numbers are up. but this is a crisis that is very much manufactured by the right, to get us to talk about its, so that's what i would say. that said, the white house is taking it really seriously, and you remember chris murphy, kirsten -- have been for three and a half months sitting in a room, i still talk to chris murphy about this, just trying desperately to solve. and they have an agreement. is it amazing? no. but have we had any legislation

on this topic in years? no. now they come and here is the problem,, mike johnson the speaker the house serves at the pleasure, not of the presidents, because the president is biden, but of candidate donald j trump. he got that job because of his involvement in the 2020 election, and trying to overturn it. so of course, that is where we are. >> dean, molly makes a great point in that from a substantive issue place, donald trump has very little to run on. i have to ask you, what happened to the culture wars? that was where things started, and it seems like there was this push about crt, and banned books, and drag shows, and all sorts of conversation. pronouns and everything else. have we see in terms of the substantive issues this put to bed? >> i think republicans are gonna run on whatever they think helps them to win, so molly is right, they would love to run on the economy, according to trump and nikki

haley, it's the great depression out there. there are food lines -- unemployment two years in a row under 4%, it's a record since the time of the vietnam war. you have the -- stock market hitting new records, they can talk about it. you have immigration, that's the big issue. if they thought banning books was gonna help them win, talking crt, would help them win, they would put it right back to that. those are not winners for them. -- it didn't work out in the midterm the way they wanted to. president biden proposed 14 billion dollars in aid for the border. we're talking about for thousands of border patrol agents, thousands to be hired. trump says no, and his minions say no. trump says there will be a terrorist attack, it's up to democrats to say -- it's because the republicans refused to agree to president biden's plan to secure our border. is that simple. but they go back to other issues, i think reproductive freedom they don't want to talk about that. that's -- >> that's a loser for them. >> people like freedom, it's a winner. if you like theocracy, not so

good. >> i think it's a very interesting issue because what i've seen is donald trump and the right, their racism and their xenophobia has not gone away, it has just morphed into this very nuanced policy issue that they are masking in a thinly veiled conversation about the border. i'm glad i have you too in, because there's something else i want to talk about, i think both of you would be great to speak on. part of what has secured donald trump the win in new hampshire and iowa is this notion of the elements of the strongman. for whatever you think of him. but what i find so interesting is when you see the strongman, there are these lap dogs of other men who are around him and they sort of just look adoringly at him, and vow at his feet. are they part -- for talking about tim scott, talking about ron desantis, we're talking -- vivek ramaswamy, we're talking about a number of people who have now apparently they

subscribe to the strongman culture, but then they sort of wealth in front of him like school girls. where does that reconcile, or is it just all of our? >> trump ran -- the reason that he won on in 2016, i mean you could say there were numbers of, and remember he didn't win the popular vote he won the electoral college, but the reason he won is because he grabbed hold of economic populism and he did it in this very authoritarian way, and then he abandoned the economic populism and just got involved with authoritarianism, which again he has not won on, as he's been running on it so i think it is interesting. the way that this plays i don't, know, i don't think the american people like autocracy. and we've seen this again and again in elections, but i don't know that trump, i don't think trump has other choices and ways to be, if that makes any sense. >> dean, so this morning we had house republican and they

revealed two articles of impeachment against homeland security secretary alejandro mallorca's for his supposed dereliction of duty regarding the border. how they forgotten that secretary mayorkas does not make the rules or the law, in relation to the border? >> it's a game. it's a show. this is for newsmax, and fox news, this is the kind of stuff you see what we're doing, we're gonna impeach hunter biden, he doesn't hold office, just impeach anyone they can. they can't impeach biden, they don't have the evidence, they know that. the situation is red meat, play the game, that's all the matters, and i love the fact that they're all addition to be vice president. that it's the sucked up olympics, these people are pathetic. i know who trump is gonna pick, whoever's most loyal to him. that's it, it's that simple. they can suck up all they want, it's about loyalty. >> molly, let's talk about what donald trump is really positioning his party to do. he's asking them essentially to leave on the table an additional 1300 border

enforcement agents, 1600 more asylum officers, expanded to facilities and add in technology at points of entry, this is really putting his party in a untenable position. we talked earlier about the pressure that donald trump creates on down -- that are in moderate districts. it seems like he doesn't care how does this reconcile with the rnc chair, as a responsibility to get folks elected and you've got a guy leaving your party who is putting this type of pressure on you, which you can't do very much about. >> he really doesn't care, i think it's fair to say he doesn't care about down ballot races, and we've seen this, he can't deliver on down ballot out candidates. we have a senate map that should be very favorable for republicans, but the base loves these maga candidates, and these maga candidates we've seen again and again, 23, 22, 2020, even 2018, these mega

candidates do not scale, they cannot win. we saw this again -- terry like he's going to run for senate in arizona, i thought she was already governor, and so it's not -- i think this is very tough. he fights with mitch mcconnell, so it's all unforced errors. >> the guy is out on bail, okay? come on. he's out on bail and he's running the gop, what are we living through in 2024. it's insane. he's literally out on bail, i'm not exaggerating. >> i'm a lawyer, i know. >> molly, do you know, dynamic duo letting me play the third wheel, thank you both for this. this is going to do it for me, thank you for watching another episode of velshi, i'm charles -- thank you so much for letting me sit in the chair, and as well as to his team for making my job super easy today. stay right where you are on msnbc, because inside with begins right now. begins right now

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