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>> a lot of us have been since the new hampshire primary just five days ago, including an 83 million dollar defamation judgment against the republican front runner. and as the primary plugs forward, the general election campaign has basically begun. biden campaign co-chair is standing nearby talking about how they're going to take on trump, and offered his reaction to e. jean carroll's massive victory against him. plus, from a department store in the 90s to her day in court

this week, andrew weissmann and katie phang are going to join me for a deep dive into how curls case against trump got to this point. and what comes next? also, could nikki haley be doing joe biden a favor by calling trump confused? and what are the factors that halle team is weighing as they decide how much to turn up the heat? and later, there is some big civil war energy coming out of texas, as greg abbott taunts the federal government with his actions on the border. i'll talk to -- about just how crazy things are getting, in his home state. >> as we come on the air today, we're getting some breaking news out of the middle east. three american service members have been killed, and 25 were injured. and it attack on a u.s. outpost in northeast georgia near the border with syria. this marks the first time that u.s. service members have been killed by enemy fire in this region since the start of the israel-hamas war. we are going to keep a close

eye on that story, and we will bring you more developments as we get them over the next hour. but i do want to begin today with what has been a week of a head spinning development in the race for president. because no matter how long nikki haley stays in this race, it will mark -- this week will mark the start of the general election. because this week, the fear -- of how joe biden and donald trump will make their case to the american people started to really take shape. it is spectacle versus substance. chaos, as nikki haley would put, it and has put it a number of times, versus normalcy. the thing is, one of those things may be more exciting, more headline grabbing. but the other is actually more focused on what the majority of the american public care about. so, let's dig into this split screen at this past week for a moment. starting on a new york city courtroom on friday night, where the spectacle candidate, i bet you know the one, donald trump, was ordered to pay over $83 million in damages to writer e. jean carroll, after

he was found liable for sexually assaulting and then defaming her. before i go any further, we just need to pause on what exactly that means. the leading candidate for the republican nomination, who will win the nomination barring something crazy happening, who has already been found liable for sexually assaulting a woman in a dressing room, has spent the last several months continuing to relentlessly attack her story, her credibility, and her character. and this judgment was decided by a jury. made up of nine ordinary citizens, we've all gotten those notices in the mail. not george soros, not joe biden, not jack smith, nine ordinary people decided $83 million was the right delauro out to award e. jean carroll. now there are political implications to this, no doubt. there are also legal questions, important ones, surrounding donald trump's liquidity and what he will be required to pay, and what he can pay. we're going to talk about all of that. but nothing is more important than those simple facts i just

laid out. and trump chose to attend this trial this week, he didn't have to. because to him, the courtroom is an asset, not a vulnerability. the spectacles all part of the strategy. it's a large part of the case he's been making to voters during the republican primary. and a bit of a different general election strategy, back on planet normalcy here, biden kicked off the week by condemning abortion bans. he then celebrated great economic news, and he received an important endorsement from the united auto workers union. it's quite a different approach here, i think it's safe to say, then that of his likely challenger. this week alone showed us the contrast at the center of this election. on one side, there is the chaos theory, turning the courtroom into a campaign. revving up the worst instincts of the republican base by playing the victim card, when you are attacking the woman you assaulted. telling people that the system is broken, and that you are the only one who can fight it. on the other side, there's normalcy. steadiness. and perhaps most importantly, a

focus on the country and not on yourself. the big question now is which side will be more appealing to the people, and in just about half a dozen swing states come november? the thing is, there's also an off ramp for republicans. they have two choices right now in the primary. they could nominate a conservative former governor and former u.n. ambassador who happens to be a woman, or the guy who is liable for sexual assaults, liable for defamation, liable for fraud, and is still facing four criminal indictments and 91 felony counts. it seems unlikely, at this point, we have no indication at least, that they will take that off ramp. but if they don't, the challenge is that this strategy, based on chaos in the courtroom and echoing off hitler every chance it gets, may not be as appealing to the voters like trump would need to lend himself back in the oval office. joining me -- for president biden's reelection campaign, my friend

mitch. great to see you. i want to start, mitch, with this question from friday night, because i know certainly that joe biden isn't going to talk about it, not going to talk about it on the trail, he kind of stays away from these legal cases in specificity. but trump was ordered to pay over $83 million to e. jean carroll. a woman he assaulted, was found liable for that, and i just wanted to pose to you kind of what your reaction is to that, and how you think this may play out in the campaign? >> hey, john. it's great to be with you, thank you. it's nice to see you again. it's really astounding. joe biden is running for president to save democracy as we know it, because donald trump is the most imminent threat to that, and trump isn't. joe biden gets up every day thinking about how to work for the american people, and he actually gets stuff done. donald trump wakes up every day and thinks about himself, he thinks about revenge, he thinks about retribution. and that is a real problem.

and as your opening said, there has never been a better splits green in realtime that allows the american people to make an informed choice about what direction they want the country to go in. now, on thursday or friday, i don't remember what date was, shortly after the president had received the endorsement from the uaw, primarily because he's been able to deliver hundreds of thousands of jobs to men and women because he believes the middle class built this country in the unions built the middle class, the jury came in on the e. jean carroll case that you talked about. on that day, the same, week and on that day, well that was happening, and donald trump was standing in the courthouse trying to explain that he had just gotten punished by a jury of his peers for sexually abusing e. jean carroll, joe biden was in wisconsin delivering a billion dollars to rebuild the bridge that is going to put thousands of working men and people, working

women and men, to work. that, as you know, is part of 40,000 projects that have gone on in the country right now to rebuild the roads and the bridges and the airports and the ports and to make sure that we have clean air so kids don't have to drink l.e.d. water, out of lead pipes. kids can have high speed internet, so that farmers can have precision agriculture. delivering it economy where we broke stock record numbers. that's joe biden, hardworking joe biden, getting to work. and by the way, delivering things for republicans and democrats, whether they voted for him or not. not retribution. donald trump, on the other hand, having been determined to be a sexual abuse, or is standing on the courthouse steps saying, not only is it okay for me to do this, but i'm going to keep doing it. and by the way, i would like my lawyers to go into court and see whether i can get cut loose for ordering the assassination of my political enemies. there's a clear choice there, you really cannot have one. >> let me ask you about that,

because you just talked about it, we've been talking about it. because they're a lot of people out there who support the president, who are rooting for him, and who want him to go after trump on, say, the fact that his opponent would have been found liable and now found by a jury to oh $83 million to a woman he not only assaulted but defamed. why doesn't the president go after him? explain the political strategy there. all not specifically. >> one of the co-chairs of the campaign, and we are speaking to that specifically. i don't think it's unclear that donald trump now -- attorney. maybe i could ask the american people. do you know anybody, much less somebody who's trying to be president, that has 91 felony counts against them right now, in four separate courts, all across the country, brought by an independent legal system? there's nobody in america. so the idea that he would be the president again is astounding. he shouldn't be within 100 miles of the white house, and i think people in america, as they focus in on this race and

understand the clear choice that the republican party of donald trump, which is not even a recognizable republican party to the republicans that loved ronald reagan, george bush, or mitt romney, or liz cheney, whoever those people may be. that's why joe biden is saying listen, come my way. i'm a common sense guy, i'm trying to get stuff done, the borders are a perfect example, where the folks on the house side have said, oh, we need a border jail. by the way, one that the president put, on the first day that he came into office. and he said okay, and now they're saying no, we want to wait. we actually want to have an open border now, because we think it's politically advantageous. you've got a guy who is ready to work across the aisle and get stuff done, and another group of folks that are just a party of no. and we are going to speak about that very forcefully to the american people and hopefully get their. >> the border thing is, as my mother would say, not on the level. and hopefully that will continue. i do want to ask you, because not just only are you a former senior staffer, you've run successfully for office

yourself. you've come from a legacy political family. there is this question right now in the democratic party, a little bit, and how long they want the primary to be going on. because on one hand, running directly against donald trump, who is very clear the upon, it is to the advantage of joe biden because it will make the choice clear. but nikki haley is watching the heck out of donald trump at the same time. so what is your take as a political expert on how would you like nikki haley to be in for a while hitting trump, or would you like it to be where it's clear, it's just trump and biden? >> well, one of the lessons i learned, having done all the things i said i did, nine races, i lost two of them, 17. you can't focus on things that you can't control. the republican folks are going to have to figure out who is what. but nikki haley is doing a good job of explaining to the american public who donald trump really is. and he is demonstrating to the rest of the country who he really is, by seeking retribution and saying things like, if you give money to

nikki tlaib, you can participate. now, i want you to compare that to joe biden, who says i passed this infrastructure bill, mitch, and make sure it gets in every community of the country, irrespective of whether they voted for me or not. because i'm a president to everybody. donald trump has demonstrated he is going to be the president for himself. and only himself. and if you don't like what he does, if you try to confront him, he is going to abuse, you may be sexually. he is going to abuse you politically, he's going to make you pay, he is going to seek retribution, and here's the thing. that's not who the american people are. that's why i am fully confident that if we prosecute our case the way we are supposed to, that folks of america are going to pick joe biden's vision of an optimistic hopeful future, and not one of hate, meatless retribution, and darkness that donald trump wants to deliver to us in chaos. i don't think that's going to happen. because as you may remember, and i will lead with this, joe biden has the only guy who's ever beat donald trump, and he's gonna beat him again. >> by 7 million votes.

you have to expand the support and get more votes, as you know as well. mitch, it's always a pleasure talking with you. thank you so much. we will look forward to talk to you again in the coming months. talk soon. coming, up donald trump who holds his first rally since the e. jean carroll verdict, and what he didn't say about it might be more interesting than what he did. andrew esmen and katie phang are standing by to talk about that, and what comes next in this case. we are just getting started today, and we will be right back. te today, and we will be righ back back sibly-better skin. and my skin is so much more moisturized. see the difference with olay. there's nothing better than a subway series footlong. except when you add on an all new footlong sidekick. we're talking a $2 footlong churro. $3 footlong pretzel and a five dollar footlong cookie. every epic footlong deserves the perfect sidekick. order one with your favorite subway series sub today. ava: i was just feeling sick. and it was the worst day. mom was crying. i was sad. colton: i was diagnosed with rhabdomyosarcoma.

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million dollar defamation judgment against donald trump, i'll take a moment to briefly lay out how we arrived at this point. because sometimes it's easy to forget. back in 2019, e. jean carroll released a book in which she accused trump of raping her in a new york city department store in the 1990s. soon after, trump attacked her the same way he handled a dozen sexual assault allegations leveled against him over the years. claiming despite photographic

evidence to the contrary, that they had never met. >> i have no idea who she is. what she did is terrible. what's going on. it's a total false accusation, and i don't know anything about it. >> two days later, in an interview with the hill, trump went further, saying quote, number one, she's not my type. carol soon began receiving a flood of violent death threats. in an interview with the guardian in july of 2019, she said she even started sleeping with a loaded gun by her bed. all the while, trump was relentless in keeping up his attacks. and it took years and a change in new york's state law for carols lawsuit against the former president to actually move forward. but finally, in the spring of 2023, the case went to trial. jurors watched three days of testimony from carole, testimony from two of her friends that she confided in at the time of the alleged rape, and deposition tape of trump standing by his comments about stars being able to do whatever

they want with women. we all remember that. in the, and the jury found trump liable for defamation and sexual assault and a quarter -- $5 million in damages. in then, the very next day, we saw just how little that judgment affected trump. when he attacked carroll during a cnn town hall. >> and i swear on my children, which i never do, i have no idea who this woman -- this is a fake story, made-up story. i have no idea, she's a whack job. >> those comments in that town hall, he called her a whack, job if you can hear, that and an avalanche of similar talks that followed on social media, laid the groundwork for the charlotte and this week. and their closing arguments on friday, carols lawyers asked the jury to deliver a punishment that would finally get him to stop. well, so far, it appears that the judgment has given him some pause. it's been less than 48 hours.

he has not attacked carol on his truth social account, and he's managed to hold back from directly commenting on the case. we will see if that continues. joining me now are two brilliant legal minds, two of my favorite legal minds, andrew weissmann is the former general counsel of the fbi and a senior member of special counsel robert mueller's team, and katie phang is a former attorney and of course host of the katie phang show here on msnbc. so, i want to start with the details here. the question a lot of people keep asking me. this is, of course, andrew, and enormous judgment gets the former president. $83 million, that's kind of an eye-popping number. trump has said he's going to appeal. if he appeals, he still has to pay some portion. so give us the details here. how much, and how long could this appeal process go? >> yeah, essentially people are wondering when will she see the money? and so, put it together with the other judgment, which was for 5 million, so you have $88 million that to separate juries,

that is 18 jurors, unanimously concluded donald trump owes because there is a victim here, and it is not donald trump, for sexual assault of a very graphic nature against her will. and repeated defamation. now, what the court does, because anybody, including donald trump, is entitled to due process, and that means he's entitled to appeal both verdicts. anyone would be entitled to do that. however, during that period, what the court requires, and is already required with respect to the first judgment, and no doubt will require with respect to this judgment, is that the defendant post a bond that is that they have to put up the money for a bond that will make sure that the plaintiff's not left with nothing. in other words, if you want to be heard on appeal and take the

time to be heard by another court as to whether, legally, it was done correctly, they won't review the facts, but legally they will review it, the money is in the court or a bond is in the court to make sure that e. jean carroll, if the decisions are affirmed, has that pool of money to go after. and so, i think people need to know, yes she will have to wait. but there is no question that judge kaplan will make sure that there is that pool of money in the court so that if she prevails on appeal, she is able to be paid in full. >> that is good for people to hear. i want to ask, you i lead into this in my opening there, but it has been less than 48 hours, trump has not attacked e. jean carroll by name. obviously, there are a lot of cases out there where he continues to attack, not only potential jurors, but people in the legal system, in the justice system. should this give us any hope

that the size of this judgment worked, or kind of from a legal perspective, what's your take away at this point? >> yeah, so the concept of a verdict, especially for somebody like e. jean carroll, it's kind of split into. there is compensatory damages, the idea of making her hold, the idea of correcting the harm that was perpetrated by donald trump when he defamed her and said that she was a liar. but then there's the punitive damages, and the word punitive, it's supposed to punish. punitive damages are also to serve as a deterrent. meaning it's supposed to keep people like donald trump and others from doing that conduct, that bad conduct that results in an 83.3 million dollar judgment. 48 hours for donald trump is a lifetime, we all know that he only looks at directly what is in front of him. so it is a long period of time, but in some respects, it could show that because the amount was so high, it wasn't another 5 million, maybe another 6 million, it depends what it was.

65 million in punitive damages, because it hits where he hurts the most, maybe he's decided to exercise some judgment. i don't give him too much credit, that maybe he's exercise some judgment in not wanting to do it. i think also what's happening to, is it could come back to haunt him if he starts to defame other people. we've seen him look at's limited gag orders, jen, in other cases. we've seen him see that, there's a legal prohibition against him speaking out in ways that are harmful, and so it's not like the judicial system is just standing by, waiting for him to do something. you see some pro activity there, but let me be clear. it is not up to prior restraint, it's not some type of abridgement of his first amendment free speech rights. there's a reason why the laws exist, to make sure that people like donald trump stay in line. >> it's really interesting to watch, with the other cases. we only have about a minute left, i wish we had more time. andrew, let me ask you about something that struck me. which is the warning by judge kaplan to the jury, that they

not reveal they were part of this case. of course, their names were not announced, we know it was seven men, two women. that seems -- obviously, it's trump. so of course he's going to go after them. but you've been in a lot of courtrooms, how uncommon, how unique is that kind of a warning? >> john, the last time i was in a courtroom where a judge said that to a jury, vincent shotgun t, the former boss of the genovese family, had been convicted. and then chief judge of the eastern district of new york told the jurors that they spoke as one body of jurors, and they spoke in court, and they gave the same strong admonition that -- he said you are legally flee to -- his strong advice to them was not to speak individually to the press out of concern about retribution from vincent shanty and his ilk. it is remarkable that that same

admonition was said with respect to somebody who was the president of the united states, that is the last time i've heard that admonition been given. >> it's quite company to have. andrew weissmann, katie phang, always a eare. thanks so much for explaining someese legal issues to all of and coming up next, following some breaking news, we are following breaking news out of the middle east. i talked about this a little bit at the top, but three u.s. service members were killed in northeast georgia near the syria border. we will tell you what we are learning about the attack and how the white house is reacting, and former cia director john brennan is standing by with his reaction. we are back, after a quick break. k, after a quick break. break. now he's... -so moisturized! -but i... probably should use old spice too. ♪ (old spice whistle) ♪ >> woman: what's my safelite story? i see inspiration right through my glass. so when my windshield cracked, i chose safelite. they replaced the glass and recalibrated my safety system. that's service i can trust. >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪

you want to see who we are as americans? i'm peter dixon and in kenya... we built a hospital that provides maternal care. as a marine... we fought against the taliban and their crimes against women. and in hillary clinton's state department... we took on gender-based violence in the congo. now extremists are banning abortion and contraception right here at home. so, i'm running for congress to help stop them. for your family... and mine. i approved this message because this is who we are. you may know adam schiff's work to protect the rule of law, or to build affordable housing, or write california's patients bill of rights. but i know adam through the big brother program. we've been brothers since i was seven. he stood by my side as i graduated from yale, and i stood by his side when he married eve, the love of his life. i'm a little biased, but take it from adam's little brother. he'll make us all proud as california senator. i'm adam schiff and i approve this message.

with nurtec odt, i can treat a migraine when it strikes and prevent migraine attacks, all in one. don't take if allergic to nurtec. allergic reactions can occur, even days after using. most common side effects were nausea, indigestion, and stomach pain. ask about nurtec odt. if you try vaping to quit smoking, it might feel like progress, but with 3x more nicotine than a pack of cigarettes - vapes increase cravings - trapping you in an endless craving loop. nicorette reduces cravings until they're gone for good. >> we want to turn now to that breaking news out of the middle east. three american service members were killed and 25 were injured in a drone attack on the united states outpost in northeast jordan, nearorder with syria. this marks the fime tt u.s. service members have been

killed by enemy fire in this region since the start of the israel-hamas war. and just moments ago, president joe biden put out a statement on this attack, saying in part, today, america's heart is heavy. joining me now is former cia director john brennan. doctor brenda, we are so grateful that you are able to make yourself available on such short notice. i just want to ask, you and i have talked a number of times since the start of this war about the risk of escalation, and we've se that at the border, we've seen that in a number of ways. in the presidents statement, he said we know this attack was carried out by radical iran-backed militant groups, operating in syria and iraq. as you're watching from your vantage point, is this a different kind of escalation, given we are talking about u.s. troops involved? >> it's a very dangerous escalation, john. given that there were three military personnel, americans, killed, and over two dozen injured, it's a sizable attack. whether it was one or more drones, these are drones that are tough packed with explosives, and then detonate

on impact. but to have that type of -- the number of casualties suggests that it was a fairly sizeable one. and as the white house has pointed out, iran has cultivated relationships with a number of militia extremist groups in syria, iraq, and other areas, as a way to put pressure on regional adversaries as well as on the united states. so the big question i think for the white house is whether or not this is iranian supported group, or whether it was an iranian directed attack. but either way, i think there are going to be consequences. >> on that point, i, mean obviously they're discussing that, presumably right now, in the situation room. but in the presidents statement, he also says we will hold all those responsible to account at a time and at a manner of our choosing. what are they weighing in a room like that right now? what is the conversation like? as you said, it's whether iran directed or whether a proxy, what are the other factors they discuss as they weigh that? >> they're going to take a look at the intelligence, what type of intelligence is available. from sources or technical systems, to see what group was

involved. clearly they were targeting a u.s. base, they're in the northeastern part of jordan. the question is whether or not there was some direction that came from tehran to this group. and also, then to determine exactly how best to respond. i believe that the approach of the white house right now, working with the intelligence and defense communities, is trying to see what type of options they have available. i do believe there will be response here, iran is certainly flirting with becoming a target itself. some type of strikes, retaliatory strikes to deter them from for their actions. >> now, we don't know, as you just stated, obviously this just happened. whether this is iran directed or not. but just to help people understand the context here, if it's iran directed, and that is determined through intelligence, how significant would that be? >> well, i think it would be very significant. you see, throughout the region, a number of these iranian supported groups, whether it be husband in lebanon, the houthis in yemen, hezbollah in iraq, and now here it appears as

though this attack emanated from syria across the border into jordan. so it's clear that iran is orchestrating these attacks, and this directed against u.s. personnel -- it is very, very significant. and so therefore i do believe that the biden administration is going to look seriously at some options, and i think iran is going to have to be held accountable to some degree, whether it is the iranian supports these group in the region, or whether it is in iran itself. >> director brennan, thank you as always for really bringing some clarity to us about this breaking news item. i appreciate you joining us today. coming up next, with nikki haley facing a very -- path to the republican nomination, she's going for broke against donald trump. using the words confused and unhinged a whole lot. i will explain why it could be a gift to the biden campaign, when we come back. the biden campaign when we come back. when we come back. complete nutrition you need... ...without the stuff you don't. so, here's to now. boost. there's nothing better than a subway series footlong. except when you add an all new footlong sidekick.

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opportunity closing rapidly, nikki haley is clearly choosing

her preferred line of attack against donald trump. that he's old, and he is confused. >> they're saying he got confused. that he was talking about something else. >> the fact that he got confused and didn't acknowledge the fact that it was actually nancy pelosi he was supposed to be talking about. >> the reality is, he was confused. >> he mentioned it three times. he got confused. >> we talked about, okay, he was having a moment. he was confused. >> what is he talking about? >> i mean, look, we've seen him get confused. >> he was confused the same way he said he ran against president obama. >> and we are going to have somebody who we can or can't be sure that they're going to get confused. >> we can't have someone else that we question whether they're mentally fit to do this. we can't. >> of course, haley has a difficult path to the nomination at this point. if any path at all, just given the states ahead. but if these attacks don't help her prevail against trump, they could still help joe biden.

that's because attacks on primary campaigns can often reemerge in general elections. for example, brooke obama made mitt romney the poster boy of corporate greed back in 2012. slimming him for his job killing -- buyouts of struggling companies. but the truth is, those charges were amplified, lifted up months earlier, by romney's republican opponents in the primary. >> mitt romney and bank capital were involved with what i call, vulture capitalism. >> they apparently looted the companies, left people totally unemployed, and walked off with millions of dollars. >> and there's a real difference between venture capitalism, and vulture capitalism. venture capitalism we like, vulture capitalism, no. >> they were making a lot of money, while the company was going bankrupt. >> yeah, believe it or not, president obama actually had rick perry and -- of all people to think for helping lay some of the groundwork there. and another example from way back in 1972, richard nixon

released a brutal ad ridiculing the defense policy of his democratic challenger, george mcgovern. literally using, as you can see, their toy soldiers, to illustrate the sweeping cuts that he wanted to make to the armed forces. the thing is, that line of attack originally came from a's primary opponent. and nixon uses humphrey's words to make his point for him. >> senator hubert humphrey had this to say about the mcgovern proposal. it isn't just cutting into the fat, it isn't just cutting into manpower, it's cutting into the various security of this country. >> one of the most infamous republican attack campaigns had roots in the democratic primary race earlier that year. during the general election of 1988, george h. w. bush ran a devastating ad against michael dukakis, targeting his states controversial furlough program, which basically gave weekend passes to convicted criminals. but bush wasn't the first to

attack the caucus on those weekends -- weekend passes. it was actually dukakis's primary opponent, who pointed out in a debate that prisoners had gone on to commit serious crimes. >> two of them committed other murders while they were on their passes. if you were elected president, would you advocate a similar program for federal penitentiary's? >> that exchange proved to be a bit of a gift to the poach campaign that year. and as it turns out, the more politics changes, the more the tactics seem to stay the same. in the past week, the biden campaign has already released an ad using nikki elise attack on trump to their own end. her voice, her words. and here's the president just last night during a speech in south carolina. >> by the way, have you noticed he's a little confused these days? [laughter]

he apparently can't tell the difference between nikki haley and nancy pelosi. >> that is the haley attack she's been doing on the trail against trump. so the biden team is clearly ready to run against trump, we see, that they've said that. but in the meantime, you may not mind some of these assists from nikki haley. coming up next, there sure is a lot of big talk about the civil war, and secession. it's pretty alarming, happening in texas right, now when it comes to the border. but as one person who understands the hypocrisy of the texas gop and its leaders better than anyone, tweeted, if texas republicans are so concerned about rapists and criminals, they should get a load of their presidential nominee. that was of course -- he's standing by and joins me right after this quick break. tanding by and joins m right after this quick break right after this quick break the sheer majesty. experience it with state-of-the-art expedition equipment and hands-on scientific research activities, all in exceptional viking comfort. we invite you to discover the world's seventh continent: antarctica.

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has been fixing for a fight against the southern border ever since president biden took office. and this week, a battle over whether or not the federal government is allowed to remove razor wire, instilled by the

state of texas, through a lot of gasoline on that fire. after a lawsuit from the department of justice, the supreme court basically said federal border patrol agents are well within the right to step in and remove the razor wire. and governor abbott has responded by essentially taunting the federal government, by continuing to have the texas national guard and state troopers lay more wire. and all this back and forth is sparking a whole lot of casual references to civil war in the right-wing circles. >> basically, the supreme court has told texas, your choices are be invaded or succeed. >> the federal government would come in, and some people would say, that's the seeds of a civil war. is that what you want? where does this and? >> that supreme court decision that was made has now put the federal government at war with the state of texas. >> joining me now is former texas congressman -- who is the founder of the political action committee, the power of people. thank you so much for joining

me this afternoon, you've been very vocal about this, and i thought it was so important, and explain to people what is going on here. because one of the things that struck me is that it's not just an issue back and forth of the border patrol. we are talking about donald trump is now calling on republican governors to call on their own national guard members to help a bit. it's escalating. how concerning is that to you? >> well, it's really clear that republicans, especially trump and those who enabled him, never had any interest in solving the problem. in fact, they are focusing on creating a bigger problem, because cynically they believe that this is to their political advantage, going into november. we've seen president biden bend over backwards, about as far as you can, politically, to meet every single one of their demands, at least brought to him by the senate republicans, agreeing to, in his own words on friday, to shut down the border. which is something you might expect donald trump to say. but that deal doesn't go far

enough for them, and trump has ordered his lieutenants to reject it so that he can win on this in november. but it's not just the politics of the rhetoric of the policy, we are talking about human lives. the people who are losing them are those a very migrants that greg abbott, our governor, has mused about shooting, and said that he wouldn't, only because he'd be arrested by the biden administration. they are dying in record numbers, and jen, these are women, these are young children, who are being swept up in the current of the rio grande river, who are dying of explosion andy adjuration in the jewel windows hurt. and let's remember, on august 3rd, 19, somebody was triggered by this rhetoric of invasion and secession and insurrection and these migrants walked into a walmart in el paso, texas, and slaughtered 23 innocent human beings. so what's happening right now could not be more dangerous. and this is a moment where we need leadership, we need to remember our values and who we are as a country, and we are

counting on president biden to do the right thing. >> i want to talk about that rhetoric, because you freeze this, and this is such an important thing for people to understand. i mean, lieutenant governor dan patrick saying texas is being quote, invaded by murderers terrorists and rapists, that is some heated escalatory, pretty outrageous language. you just alluded to this, but talk to us more about what the impact of language like that is. how do people here, that what could happen at the border in some of these communities where people hear that, and think they should act? >> it's absolutely clear that we've got legitimate concerns and challenges at the border. the problem is, when abbott and dan patrick and donald trump and republican leadership in congress exacerbate those problems and create chaos and confusion, it makes it really hard to identify those who could very well threaten the united states, who are in the vast minority. those asylum seekers and refugees, who are seeking to

cross. furthermore, as you point out, this kind of rhetoric is inciting these dead enter confederate dreamers, who are coming to texas with weapons, who are promising to shoot and kill people, and this isn't just me saying it. follow my feed on tiktok or instagram, or twitter, and you will see them responding to our tweets, promising they're coming to texas to shoot people. that's not an empty threat. look at what happened in buffalo, look at what happens in el paso, these white nationalist terrorists are taking their cues not from the extreme or the fringe of the internet, but by elected leaders like greg abbott or donald trump. that's why i'm hoping that president biden will remind us of who we are at our best. we are a country of immigrants. we can find safe, legal, orderly pathways for people to come here the right way. to do better for themselves, and certainly to do better for all of us. and he must meet greg abbott at

this showdown, and reiterate what the supreme court has already decided, that the federal government has supremacy at the border on immigration policy, and restore what we know to be true about this country, those immigrants make us stronger by their very presence, and certainly we don't want to see them die or be killed by these unhinged, right-wing terrorists. we want to get back to the order, the safety, the control that we are totally capable of, but it's going to take that presidential leadership. which by the way, john, he is free to exercise. he's done everything he can to try to strike a bipartisan deal. republicans will work with him. >> let me ask you about that, because that's absolutely -- let me just double tap on that. there is a bipartisan deal that a number of conservative republicans have said is a great deal, that donald trump and others are stopping. but let's ask you about something you've talked about, which is federalizing the national guard. not everybody is for, that just to state clearly. why do you think that's

something the president should do, and are you concerned about any of the potential drawbacks, like, say, if someone like trump is elected, you might see that as a president? >> in 54, the supreme court orders the integration of public education in america with brown versus -- in 50, seven governor faubus, in arkansas, defies the supreme court order, uses the state guard to keep those young african-american children from going to little rock high school. president dwight d. eisenhower federalize is the guard, and actually sends in -- to make sure that that supreme court decision is upheld in honor. today, you have another extremist governor in greg abbott, who's defying a supreme court order, defying the constitution, defying the president of the united states, and using 10,000 members of the state guard to block federal border patrol agents from doing their job. which by the way, jen, is to apprehend those who cross in between ports of entry, to detain them, to deport them

back to the country from which they came if they don't qualify for parole, or the ability to stay in this country. and also to save the lives of those migrants who right now are dying and drowning in the rio grande river. if he's not going to follow the law, then it is up to the president to make sure that the law is followed by -- the guard. i know that that is a big step for the president to take, i know that folks don't want to inflame the situation, but jen, what i've seen at every turn, after busting migrants and deploying these drowning devices, putting razor wire under the river, and now openly flirting with secession, is if you do not confront greg abbott, he's going to continue to escalate. it's time for the president to take control of this. i know he wants, do i know that ultimately he will, but it benefits when people around this country provide the public pressure for him to do the right thing, and i'm confident that he will. >> thank you, beto o'rourke, for being so open, for

expanding on twitter and other platforms, as you said, what is really happening here. i really appreciate you joining us this afternoon as well. coming, up some big news about what's happening here on msnbc tomorrow night. we have the big show, we are back after a quick break. stay with us. stay with us. but ix protects. proven over 90% effective, shingrix is a vaccine used to prevent shingles in adults 50 years and older. shingrix does not protect everyone and is not for those with severe allergic reactions to its ingredients or to a previous dose. an increased risk of guillain-barré syndrome was observed after getting shingrix. fainting can also happen. the most common side effects are pain, redness, and swelling at the injection site, muscle pain, tiredness, headache, shivering, fever, and upset stomach. shingles doesn't care but, shingrix protects. shingrix is now zero dollars

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that does it for me today. but we've got another big show in the works for tomorrow night, eight pm eastern. someone i've been looking forward to chat with for a long time, senator brian schatz of hawaii, joining me here at the table in studio. plus, george conway will be here to discuss his role in the e. jean carroll verdict. those responsible for putting carroll in touch with her attorney, robbie kaplan. and right after that, at nine pm, e. jean carroll and her attorneys will join my colleague rachel maddow to discuss the verdict against former president trump. in the meantime, stay right where you are because there is much more news coming up on msnbc. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪