this hour, on ayman,

breaking news in jordan. -- injured and a drone strike. who order that, and how will america respond? also tonight, 2016 days of a. it's time we'll talk about how we will talk about trump and his current run for the white house. and we could not sign off this weekend without diving into the drama surrounding barbie. the stars, the snubs, and the serious conversations it is all sparking. i'm ma mohyeldin. let's get started. we begin this hour, though, with that breaking ne o of the middle east. specifically the reaction tonight here at home. the u.s. military has confirmed that three american troops have injured in a drone strike at a base in northeast jordan near the syrian border known as tower 22. u.s. officials tell msnbc that

the drone was filled with explosive and impacted near shelter where troops were sleeping. president biden blamed radical around-backed militant groups for the attack and the u.s. is still, quote, gathering the facts. -- first time american troops in the region have been killed by enemy fire since the beginning of the gaza war. the president called the three service members who were killed, quote, patriots in the highest sense, adding, quote, we will strive to be worthy of their honor and valor. we will carry on their commitment to fight terrorism, and have no doubt we will hold all those responsible -- time and manner of our choosing. and the immediate aftermath of this attack, we are already seeing a stark divide here at home on how and when to respond. for president biden, his administration's approach to the escalating situation in the middle east has so far been that of deterrence. however, sunday's attack now directly calls into question whether that strategy is

working. on the other side of the aisle, republicans are rallying for a stronger show of force, pressuring the president to take action. action that could run the risk of putting us on course for a direct conflict, if not outright war, with iran. former president donald trump called the strike a, quote, horrible day for america, and went on to claim, put, would never have happened if i was president, not even a chance. while warning, we are on the brink of world war iii. his gop rival, south carolina governor nikki haley shared a similar sentiment remarking that, quote, they would not be attacking our troops if joe biden weren't so weak in his treatment of iran. congressional republicans also quickly seized on this news, urging biden to retaliate against iran directly for backing the militia that launched the deadly strike. house speaker mike johnson said that, quote, america must send a crystal clear message across the globe that attacks on our troops will not be tolerated.

senator lindsey graham, for his part, called for biden to, quote, strike targets of significance inside iran. not only as reprisal for the killing of our forces, but as deterrence against future aggression. and remarking rather bluntly, quote, hit iran now, hit them hard. let's bring in msnbc news correspondent allie raffa who is joining us with the very latest. ali, can you tell us more what the white house is thinking about possible response, and is it too early to ask whether or not there's any reaction to some of these calls coming from capitol hill and whether or not it might shape how the u.s. responds? >> yeah. we haven't heard white house officials or president biden react to these different individual calls from lawmakers on capitol hill. we did see the president return here to the white house a short time ago from south carolina, where we know he was briefed throughout the day on the details about this attack by top administration officials.

those officials including the director of national intelligence, the cia director, secretary of state defense secretary, even the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff. so those high-level officials speaking to how seriously this attack is being taken by the white house, and the president and those officials no doubt are mulling over how this attack could've happened. and, really what options are on the table to be able to respond to it. the president vowing to respond to it while he was in south carolina today, saying he would do it at a time and manner of our choosing. the big question now, though, is what will that response look like? could it be just simply retaliatory, or could we see a move that serves as more of a deterrent? something to prevent these same iran-backed militia groups or other groups in this region from trying to take advantage of the situation? we because remember. since the israel-hamas war began on october 7th, the biden

administration has repeatedly said that its main goal was preventing this conflict from spreading wider, from preventing the united states from being dragged deeper into this conflict. they put in place several deterrents. they sent more u.s. troops to this region, more carrier strike groups to this region. but those deterrence haven't stopped those iranian-backed militia groups from repeatedly striking u.s. assets in this region. we have heard u.s. officials say that many of those attacks were unsuccessful, that the impact on u.s. service members in this region was minor. many of them suffering injuries, but this latest attack definitely a major escalation, as we mentioned. this is the first time u.s. troops have been killed by enemy fire in the middle east since the israel-hamas war began on october 7th. so, no doubt, serious contemplation and consideration being taken as to what the next

steps will be, and how this will more broadly impact this region and the united states, amen. >> allie raffa live for us at the white house, thank you for staying up for us this evening. really appreciate your reporting on this. let's continue the conversation now with matt -- international policy. he is, of course, a former foreign policy adviser for senator bernie sanders. matt, it's good to have you with us. you know, i wanted to get your thoughts on this sudden attack. it may seem a surprise to some, but the trend was that, as we've seen since october 7th, repeated attacks, i think more than 150 plus attacks on u.s. troops across the region in various ways, when is this escalation somewhat inevitable? >> unfortunately, i think it is. it is ocking. it's a tragedy we the injuring of many more. but we've seen as many as 70 attacks over the past several

months since october 7th in various countries in the region. of course, we've been dealing with the problem of houthi attacks on shipping in the red sea. so, this, despite the biden administration's clear goal of trying to prevent the spread of this wire, we've seen it steadily spread. and we are well into that escalation now with last nights attack. >> i was gonna say. it's israel, gaza, lebanon, yemen, syria, iraq, and now jordan that have all seen some kind of military involvement attack, as a result, including in the red sea. but when you look at this, it's hard to say that this is a situation that is calming down rather than escalating. >> that's right. i think it's clear that no one wants -- i, mean i think iran, as i understand, has made clear, it does not want to be drawn into an escalation. but at the same time, there are various proxy groups or partner groups, whatever term one would like to use --

i think the larger context here, and this is what we've been dealing with with the houthis as well, is that this catastrophe in gaza with, a now almost four month humanitarian crisis over 28,000 people killed, 2 million displaced, many on the brink of starvation, this catastrophe that is being backed unconditionally by the united states unfortunately has provided an environment and a context for a lot of these groups to kind of re-up their resistance bona fides against the united states and against the west. demonstrating that they represent the real resistance voice in the region. one doesn't have to agree with that or defend these groups politically programs at all. but we have to recognize the political context it's been created by the u.s. backing up this war in gaza. >> as we set up in the introduction there, now, the calls for striking iran directly are growing. we --

military experts in washington who are not in the military but certainly outside and provide commentary, saying the u.s. should consider targeting iran directly, maybe even going after vessels, iranian vessels. would that work, given the fact that these organizations, this militants that were responsible for these militias, i should say, responsible for what we've seen in jordan, perhaps even the houthis, are not directly linked -- we don't know if they were technically given an order from iran to carry out this attack. >> right. and any situation like this, especially one where americans have lost their lives, you're going to see the usual voices in washington from the kind of foreign national policy priesthood singing the same hymns about how we need to respond with strength, these are all the various expressions of faith that the washington foreign policy establishment espouses. but let's remember, this is what the united states has been doing for literal decades in this region. responding to violence with more violence, escalating

violence, trying to control the violence. and it has not worked. we saw thetatement from donald trump in response to the attacks. let's remember, four years ago, trump assassinated the iranian general soleimani, and in response to that, iran responded by attacking the al-assad air base in iraq with ballistic missiles that injured, that gave traumatic brain injuries to some 100 american service members. it did very little, if anything, to actually deter iran, even in the short term. certainly, we can see it is done nothing to deter iran in the longer term. maybe we should try a different approach right now with iran and its partner groups. but also, let's look at the source of this current unrest, and that is gaza. until we are really willing to bring pressure to bear to end this conflict and to get desperately needed humanitarian aid to gaza's people, this will

only get worse. >> so to that point, as the president box himself in by refusing to call for a cease-fire, by refusing to leverage more power that america has over ending this where if it can do so at this point? and that is somewhat questionable, whether the current government in israel is even at all willing to listen to this administration. but has the president box some soften no? you've had the houthis and these militia groups in iraq and elsewhere demanding a cease-fire, and if it appears now that the u.s. comes with calls for a cease-fire, it may give them her perception of a win. that this change of course is a result of these kinds of military operations that carrying out in the region. >> you, know it may give them a perception of a win, but it happens, in my view, to be the right policy. to answer your question, yes, unfortunately, i think the president has boxed himself in, or at least taken several very important tools off the table. by making it clear that the united states will not bring

any real pressure to bear on israel as it carries out this assault. it will not condition aid, it will say things about protecting civilians and wanting to get more humanitarian aid in. we'll get a few more trucks of aid inside here and there. but until the president is really willing to shift policy, and use the united states enormous leverage on israel to change its behavior, unfortunately, i only see this getting worse. >> all right. we matt duss, matt, i really appreciate your time. thanks for joining us this evening. >> thank you. >> brace yourself for a rollercoaster of never-ending trump headlines this year, since it is still january, we want to get ahead of a debate that you're gonna see play out over the medias coverage of trump. what is enough, what is not, and how to do it. that's next. that's next. with some help from j.p. morgan wealth plan. let's go whiskers. jen y is working with a banker to budget for her birthday. you only turn 30 once. and jen z?

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he has got basically a conservative media.

fox news, you know, the websites, all of the good stuff. they just don't hold them accountable, because they are worried about losing viewers. >> i don't care how much you want to coordinate donald trump. at the end of the day, that's not what americans want. americans want a choice, and we're going to give them a choice. >> you keep saying coordinates, lie, not tell the truth. i'm wondering why you think that we are the enemy. >> that was ron desantis and nikki haley pushing back on fox, both poor propping up donald trump and for sending them a clear message. dropped out of the race, and attend a coronation of trump. so, far desantis has answered that call, but hailie has yet to do so. now that is fox, but how will other outlets cover trump's 2024 campaign? what responsibility do all of us in the media have to assuage -- avoid the same mistakes made in 2016 and beyond. joining me now is angelo kara son, the president of the progressive media watchdog group, media matters. it's great to have you back on the show. let's start with the million dollar question, which is, how

do you cover trump properly? how do you avoid normalizing him without the same time ignoring the threat, the singular threat that he poses to the democracy. >> yeah, man, that is the real challenge. there are a few lessons here that i think have not been baked in, or have not been fully lifted. don't allow him to go along to seep in, because that can affect coverage. something really bad is going to happen. there's a massive attack on the media, saying trump is going to come and get, you get reelected. the right-wing has a strong history of working the reds. that should not allow recovers to get the sport. for example, when he's talking about nazis, the nazi comments, and then looked at that coverage. and then looked at clinton's deplorable comments. the word deplorable is in a totally appropriate way. you've got 26 more times attention than donald trump quoting nazi.

there are a few things, one is the inoculation of bias, which distorts their coverage. the second is go along to get along. those two things should be avoided. the most critical thing is to not be enforcing the narrative that he's telling about himself. some of the things that said or reported about donald trump are often negative, but they are actually very powerful hit for his story, because they lead him to reinforce his brand. ultimately, that's his real strength, that he is telling and projecting a narrative. those are the three buckets. on the flip side, this critical piece, don't make it all about trump. it doesn't mean the year ignoring him. just say some of the economic benefits play out, donald trump's coverage of the economy in the news media was significantly better than president biden's is. even though president biden by every measurable indicator has had more economic success. that is not only the reflection of the internalized attempt to inoculate themselves against president biased, but also an example of what not to do. to me, that is -- if they follow those lessons, at least people can make an informed decision.

>> very important points for all of us to heed the warning of. i wanted to get your thoughts on something that is not news related, but certainly media related. the return of john stewart to host the daily show on monday, at least until the election in november. especially after he left in 2015, he was a very influential figure. give me your thoughts on how influential our figures like jon stewart, john oliver, and others in terms of keeping people, younger people informed and spotlighting this threat to democracy that people like trump and the republican party and larger posing. other people that you think he could reach as a comedian, satirist, entertainer who otherwise might not be paying attention? >> i think that if you just look at the work that he has done, he's done more recently around pushing legislation for the -- sort of the first responders in the wake of the world trade center attacks in 9/11. that correspondence is an alliance. some of that media actually penetrated influence not just

more mainstream and left wing media, that actually benefited conservative media. it tracks a shared voice. during that time period, one of the biggest shift in the political ties with the fact that it was john stewart's relentless pursuit of just what was actually happening around this legislation, and why it was so important. and actually conservative audiences -- that then the lead to political pressure on republicans. i use that as a jump point, because i'm not going to overstate the influence of john stewart here, but as you noted in your question, there are very few people that have real truth telling capacity these days, and trust ability. he's one of those figures. on top of, that he's shown a consistent ability to constantly choose -- isn't going to be a game-changer? no. is it significant in a moment where we are dealing with deepfakes, potential foreign interference, a massive avalanche of disinformation? i don't think, though, it will be the people watching his show live there will be the

difference maker. as you know, it will be like john oliver. the clips in segments that really penetrated get saturation online. >> that is a very important point as well, the digital landscape and online landscape continuously evolving from election cycle to election cycle. angelo carusone, a pleasure to see you, and thank you for joining us this evening. and a quick programming note. tomorrow, e. jean carroll and her attorneys robbie kaplan and sean crowley join rachel maddow live to discuss the verdict for donald trump in the defamation trial. make sure to catch that tomorrow. rachel maddow interviewing e. jean carroll and her attorneys on the rachel maddow show. after this, my conversation with a decorated former israeli security chief about the war in gaza, and more on tonight's breaking news. three american service members killed by a drone strike in jordan. ♪ ♪ ♪ i think that this product is a game changer for my patients. it really works.

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news. we have just learned the amount of u.s. personnel heard in the attack in jordan, it has now risen. we knew that itlrdy included three u.s. service mbers. it happened today in northeast jordan near the siaborder town known as tower 22. biden has blamed iranian-backed militant groups for the attack. the group of injured personnel is expected to fluctuate as service members continue to seek care. we are told that eight personnel required evacuation from jordan to get a higher level of care. they are now in stable condition. we will let you know any more information as we get it. meanwhile, cia director william burns was in paris today participating in a fourth round of negotiations with israeli, egyptian, and qatari officials to try and help secure the release of hospitals released and gaza. trying to end the war. -- a spokesperson from netanyahu's office issued a statement which read in part, quote, the meeting was defined as a constructive meeting. there are still significant gaps in which the parties will

continue to discuss this week in additional mutual meetings. sources familiar with the negotiations tell nbc news that the conditions of the deal are coming together, but emphasized that an agreement is not imminent. earlier, i spoke with i -- former decorated head of israel's navy, that is the states domestic security service. he is also the offer of the men were friendly fire. how israel became its own worst enemy, and it's hope for the future. i started out by asking ami where the israel military strategy stands today, over 100 days into the war. here's what he had to say. >> first of all, we don't know. the war just started. i don't think it's the right strategy, because as long as we don't define the day after. meaning that if we can't described in clear terms the day after, it means that we do not have any idea of the essence of victory. any strategy without the

finished definition of the victory, which in my eyes's first. to bring back all the hostages, and second to destroy or dismantle the military capabilities of hamas. and to make sure that its leaders will not go leading palestinians in gaza. these are the two military objectives. they are achievable. since it is not combined with a clear picture of the day after, i don't think it is the right strategy. >> do you think that this current government of the prime minister, president benjamin netanyahu still has the confidence of the israeli people to pick up this war? i have seen growing protests demanding the negotiation for hostages. that is something that he has been reluctant to do throughout this. he has felt that the war was going to bring about the release of the hostages.

>> personally, i think that the leader responsible for the 7th of october, which is probably -- i don't know, the largest or most horrible event that the jewish people suffered, or experienced, or faced since the end of the holocaust. i don't think that the leaders can lead us. the example that i gave earlier, the fact that he is not ready to discuss the day after. it is not because he does not know anything about it, it is because politically he does not have the courage or political power to do in. once he will try to do it, it is coalition. and so i think that it is time for him to go and take

responsibility. i hope that we should see it sooner than later. >> as you probably are aware, sir. a dozen israeli ministers, including some from netanyahu's party participated in a conference for it rebuilding israeli settlements in gaza. some discouraging the despite mittens of palestinians from the area. you are a senior member in the israeli military. you headed the security service, the internal security services. what is your reaction when you hear the israeli ministers calling for the resettlement of gaza, and the reoccupation of gaza, and the placement of palestinians. what do you think that does to the long term prospects? >> i just want to add to your questions. we are doing it two days after the decision of the international court. the international court insisted that all of the people who support more violence and

especially people who believe in transfer of doing something which is -- again, it is the international law. it is against the interests of the israeli people, and the state of israel. i cannot support it. i know, and i think that it is not mentioned in the public debate. they represent less than 15% of the people in israel. politically, and they are a small minority. since in israel we have a coalition system of democracy, it is based on a coalition system. unfortunately, they get the microphone and believe that they represent the israeli people, and the israeli government. it is a huge mistake. >> before i go, sir, i wanted to ask you one question about the relationship between the

united states and israel. and today specifically, the breaking news of a drone attack on the united states forces inside of jordan. three u.s. soldiers were killed. how do you think that the united states has been handling this war with its support for israel and the prime minister now that the united states is becoming increasingly under attack across the region? both in the red sea, and now as we saw in places in like iraq and places like jordan. >> i see america in the eyes of the israeli citizens. i think the american president has shown his friendship. in ways that we never saw. we never saw this level and magnitude of support and friendship. emotionally and practically. since, i don't know, i remember wars.

it is obvious that america is paying a huge price. let me tell you the way that i see it, again from my point of view as an israeli. the conflict between israelis and palestinians is not only between israelis and palestinians. today or even before, but specifically after the 7th of october. it is obvious. it is a regional conflict. in a way, it is becoming almost a global conflict because when china is confronting america, the middle east is the place that we see today. china is here in the middle east and trying to shape the middle east in the future. china cannot give up on the middle east because of energy. it comes from -- and so i think that when america is doing, the american president understands that it's

not only the interests of the israelis. the israeli democracy. it is the interests of the region in order to create stability. it is in the interest of america if america wants to have some influence in the middle east. >> all right, ami ayalon, i really appreciate your insights and thank you for making time for us this evening. >> thank you very much. >> switching gears after the break to some surprisingly divisive news coming out of hollywood. stay with us. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ start your day with nature made. the #1 pharmacist recommended vitamin and supplement brand. covid-19? i'm not waiting. if it's covid, paxlovid. paxlovid is an oral treatment for adults with mild-to-moderate covid-19 and a high-risk factor for it becoming severe. it does not prevent covid-19. my symptoms are mild now, but i'm not risking it. if it's covid, paxlovid.

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device of cultural issues of the year is turning out to be, like it or not, barbie. the fat tk over the world last smer, shattering records as the biggest box office winner of 2023, and the highest graf movie directed by a woman ever. there is a taunt of backlash, and backlash to the backlash overwhelming this internet this week when the oscar nominations came out. several outlets described it, everyone lost their minds. barbie was nominated in eight categories, including best picture. but greta gerwig was left off of the best directors list, and margot robbie did not get a nomination. many fans felt strongly that gerwig ends robbie were snubbed,

while others found the outrage to be disproportionate. we decided to step back and look at both sides of the barbie debate. for those that haven't seen barbie, the character played by -- who is nominated by best supporting actress, delivered a two and a half minute monologue during the end of the movie that pretty much sums it up. here's a clip. >> you have to never get old, never be rude, never show off, never be selfish. never fall down, never failed, never show fear. never get out of line. it is too high. it's too conadictory. >> for many fans, the irony is just that. two of the leading women behind a movie that calls out the patriarchy were overlooked by their creative contributions in the male dominated film industry. in a some see by the case inoint, ryan gosling was nominated for best supporting tor for his role as can. guzzesponded, writing in a statement, there is no ken

without barbie, and there is no barbie movie without gretta gerwig and marco robbie. no recognition would be possible for anyone in the field -- without their talent and genius. it brings to scar host billy crystal's 90 to 92 it abt rbara streisand for directing the prince of times. he famously said, did the movie direct itself? barbie also reinvigorated peoples enthusiasm, bringing viewers back to theaters, just when cinemas needed audience is the most. it also marks notable success for a woman director, in an industry where, according to one study, only 6% of directors of top grossing films between 2007 and a 2023 were women. 6%. what those that don't see it this all as one big snub? some argue that for one, barbie is not the first crowd pleaser to be overlooked by the academy. that happens quite often. we'll be goldberg, and academy member that has hosted the oscars multiple times put it this way. quote, there are no snubs, not

everybody gets a prize. some say that the fury over gerwig and robbie has also taken away from other historic nominations, including lily gladstone who was the first native american best actress nominee for her role in killers of the flower moon. it is worth ding that both gerwig and robbie were nominated. gerwig was nominatefobest adapted screenplay, and robbie's work as an executive producer is acknowdg for barbie's best picture. and it reoccurring argument is that is the epit white feminism. he notes, the out of proportion outrage fans are feeling high the film's failure to convey a core tenant of feminism tits audience. a personal slight against some high-profile privileg wte woman is not an affront to the gains of women hood overall. fans also point out that the asis on robbie and gerwig overshadows another snub of two men of color, past lives a best

picture nominee. director celine song, and leading actresses loretta leigh, both korean women, were not nominated for their work on the film. all of this begs the question, is the outrage over this snow called's -- snubs valid or completely overblown? we will be right back to debate this with our panel. msnbc columnist liz plank, and variety senior editors clayton guinness. stay with us. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ hot too. to advance the future of golf, pga of america chose t-mobile for business. with a 5g powered innovation hub to analyze player performance and expand coaching tools. take your business further with america's largest 5g network. ah mornings! cough? congestion? i'm feeling better. all in one and done with new mucinex kickstart. headache? better now. new mucinex kickstart gives all-in-one and done relief with a morning jolt of instant cooling sensation.

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into the oscars controversy. an avalanche are -- of opinions around barbie's lead and director not being nominated by the academy. joining me, liz plank, and msnbc columnist. she is the author of for the love of men a new mind for matt -- mindful masculinity. and senior editor at awards a variety. liz, i will start with you. your reactions over the barbie nominations, or lack thereof? where do you stand on this?

>> thank you for having me to talk about this very important issue tonight. i kind of have a theory that every conversation that we are having about the barbie movie is not actually about the barbie movie. it is about you. it's such an interesting thing for people to express their emotions, to express their views and perspectives. there is no shortage of them, as you said in your amazing montage and review of all of it. look, no matter how you feel about the barbie movie. i think that we can all agree that the academy awards is a mojo delgado casts a house. we know that 67% of voters are male, and 50% of them are white. we know that the best director in the category is highly overemphasized with mail talent over female talent. in 100 years, only eight women have ever even been nominated. only one woman of color has ever won that category. there is a big imbalance.

should we be spending just as much time talking about saline song being snubbed in that category instead of greta gerwig? absolutely. should this not be taking away from so many of the historic wins that you mentioned, like america pereira. lily gladstone, as the first indigenous woman to be nominated for the best actress category. absolutely. i am glad that we are talking about it. i think that we should be talking about all of those things. i don't think that we have -- i don't think that you have a very expressing mindset when you talk about the barbie movie, and you talk about the oscars. >> i think you're right. and you hit on something very important. that is that this is symbolic of a broader conversation in society. is not just about barbie, but it's about how we view the academy awards. who gets snapped, who doesn't get snubbed. how to prioritize them. i want to get your take, because you've been talking to members of the academy and voters on barbie. what are you hearing about voters thoughts on this debate, and why greta gerwig and margot robbie were not nominated for best director and best actress

respectively. >> well when you look at academy history, it should be no surprise that comedies were out of the top categories. in tradition, they have not always shown love for comedy movies. a lot of the academy members talk about up until nomination morning, saying their thoughts, they thought barbie was good not great. they had trouble seeing it beyond just a movie about a toy that comes to life. there is a very nuanced conversation. there is a problem with women getting their recognition in this industry. that should not be lost. but i would like to remind everybody that the ninth latina ever nominated as a supporting actress, america pereira, we have not spoken about her in the last week. we said that we have been focusing on these two women that are nominated that did not get a second nomination on the day. it's not hack and all the time, there are ten spots in best picture and five in director.

greg, we can have that discussion about it, but justine tree i nominated as a woman director also not getting spoken about again because this is the first time that the public has been really invested in the highest grossing film of the year being in the oscar race. i always say, it's a miracle that barbie even made it this far. >> it is definitely an important point that you bring about the comparisons. when you think about liz's point, when if i go back to it for a perception point of the mail industry dominated. where film makers aren't actresses are not fully recognized. is there a validity for the take that barbie had the crowd pleaser and blockbuster film, that should never be the factor in the movie list? in the consideration for the awards? >> yes, i totally agree. part of why there is so much outrage, it's because so many people saw the movie. it is a rarity, especially in the last few years with so many

people who actually got to see the movie. i can't remember the last time that i planned to go see the movie on the dade premiered, and it wasn't just me. people were dressing up for it. obviously there was oppenheimer going on at the same time. there were other factors at play. they did pull in huge audiences. to come back to an industry that many people believe was over. they were not just going to be watching movies at home. and the oscars, just to bring it, because they are not keeping up with the times in many respects, they are losing audiences. it actually -- you know, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me if you leave out a movie and the people that are associated with it that are helping to revive the business that you are a part of. that you are depending on. just on the note of social media reach, i think the social media rage can be a good thing. i remember in 2015 the hashtag

oscar white, it changed the oscars forever. the movement that was created because of it doubled the amount of black nominees, and nominees of color that we saw in the following years. i do think that these conversations really matter. >> is there claim to the discussion it is taking place in hollywood that you are aware of or privy to based on your reporting into the conversations that you had with industry insiders about the need to have more reflection or synchronization towards what it is in the public discussion and public appetite? and the awards. is that something where they are very guarded and don't want to happen. i know that only members get to vote, but the truth is -- do they even care about the public thinking in any of these conversations? >> what people tend to forget is being the top five of anything is very difficult. i am getting whiplash, that duplicity of 2008, the dark

night. when they had the mission director and screenplay, they were not nominated at that show at all despite dark night being on it for eight oscars. the next year with barbie, expanded best picture from 5 to 10 nominees to get more public recognized movies. if you look at history, in the last 25 years, barbie is the highest grossing film of 2023. three movies in that span have been nominated for both picture and director. saving private ryan with speech stephen spielberg, james cameron with avatar, and stephen jackson with the lord of the rings. it's not to say the highest grossing movie, it's for the movies achievements. not saying that barbie doesn't have achievements, but it doesn't mean they got snubbed. i'm worried that they're going to react to this and expanded director lineup, but i don't think that's what should happen. i think we need to have the academy be open to more genres and other types of movies beyond dramas and international

titles. >> i was a fan of top gun maverick, i'm not going to line. i thought there was a pretty good movie. i think that a lot of other people thought that script and that was pretty good, the way they were -- >> and by the way, not nominated for best director, top gun. it's not just isolated for greta gerwig, it happens a lot. >> really quickly, we have about 30 seconds. i will give you, liz a shot. who do you think will take on best director? >> i hope it is justine. i hope it is a woman. i am biased. and you know, i thought it was a grim film to. >> what about you, clay, who do you think is going to get it? >> justine will win original screenplay, james cameron will win with oppenheimer. >> you're probably right. [laughter] >> that's why he does it for a living, he covers us. that's why he got brought on, he knows what he's talking about. really appreciate you guys joining us. it was a very important question this week amid everything else that was going on. just tried to mix it up a little bit with all of the news out there. we really appreciate your insights. we'll have you on after the oscars and see who is right.

we really appreciate it. thank you for making time for us at home. make sure to catch ayman every sunday on msnbc. follow us on extended -- until we meet again, i am ayman mohyeldin in new york. and the good night. ♪ ♪ ♪ patients. it really works. as the world keeps moving, help prevent covid-19 from breaking your momentum. you may have already been vaccinated against the flu, but don't forget this season's updated covid-19 shot too.

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