another big show in the work for tomorrow night eight pm eastern. someone i'm interested in talking to for a long, time brian schatz. plus, george connally will be here to discuss his role in the e. jean carroll verdict. those responsible for putting carroll in touch with her attorney, robbie kaplan. and then tomorrow at nine pm, her and her attorneys robbie kaplan and sean crowley will join my colleague, rachel maddow to discuss the verdict against former president trump. in the meanwhile, stay where you are, there's much more news coming up on msnbc. ♪ ♪ ♪ >> this hour on ayman, breaking news in jordan. three u.s. troops killed and

dozens injured in a drone strike. who ordered it? how will america respond? also tonight, 2016 déjà vu. it is time we all talk about how we will talk about trump and his current primary for the route white house. we couldn't sign out this weekend with her diving into the drama surrounding barbie. the stars, the snubs, and the serious conversations it is all. sparking. i'm ayman mohyeldin. let's get started. we begin this hour, though, with that breaking news out of the middle east. specifically the reaction tonight here at home. the u.s. military has confirmed that three american troops have been killed and more than 30 injured in a drone strike at a base in northeast jordan near the syrian border known as tower 22. u.s. officials tell msnbc that the drone was filled with explosive and impacted near shelter where troops were sleeping. president biden blamed radical around-backed militant groups for the attack and the u.s. is still, quote, gathering the facts. -- first time american troops in the region have been killed by enemy fire since the beginning of the gaza war. the president called the three service

members who were killed, quote, patriots in the highest sense, adding, quote, we will strive to be worthy of their honor and valor. we will carry on their commitment to fight terrorism, and have no doubt we will hold all those responsible -- time and manner of our choosing. and the immediate aftermath of this attack, we are already seeing a stark divide here at home on how and when to respond. for president biden, his administration's approach to the escalating situation in the middle east has so far been that of deterrence. however, sunday's attack now directly calls into question whether that strategy is working. on the other side of the aisle, republicans are rallying for a stronger show of force, pressuring the president to take action. action that could run the risk of putting us on course for a direct conflict,

if not outright war, with iran. former president donald trump called the strike a, quote, horrible day for america, and went on to claim, put, would never have happened if i was president, not even a chance. while warning, we are on the brink of world war iii. his gop rival, south carolina governor nikki haley shared a similar sentiment remarking that, quote, they would not be attacking our troops if joe biden weren't so weak in his treatment of iran. congressional republicans also quickly seized on this news, urging biden to retaliate against iran directly for backing the militia that launched the deadly strike. house speaker mike johnson said that, quote, america must send a crystal clear message across the globe that attacks on our troops will not be tolerated. senator lindsey graham, for his part, called for biden to, quote, strike targets of significance inside iran. not only as reprisal for the killing of our forces, but as deterrence against future aggression. and remarking

rather bluntly, quote, hit iran now, hit them hard. let's bring in msnbc news correspondent allie raffa who is joining us with the very latest. ali, can you tell us more what the white house is thinking about possible response, and is it too early to ask whether or not there's any reaction to some of these calls coming from capitol hill and whether or not it might shape how the u.s. responds? >> yeah. we haven't heard white house officials or president biden react to these different individual calls from lawmakers on capitol hill. we did see the president return here to the white house a short time ago from south carolina, where we know he was briefed throughout the day on the details about this attack by top administration officials. those officials including the director of national intelligence, the cia director, secretary of state defense secretary, even the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff. so those high-level officials speaking to how seriously this attack is being taken by the white house, and the president and those officials no doubt are mulling over how this

attack could've happened. and, really what options are on the table to be able to respond to it. the president vowing to respond to it while he was in south carolina today, saying he would do it at a time and manner of our choosing. the big question now, though, is what will that response look like? could it be just simply retaliatory, or could we see a move that serves as more of a deterrent? something to prevent these same iran-backed militia groups or other groups in this region from trying to take advantage of the situation? we because remember. since the israel-hamas war began on october 7th, the biden administration has repeatedly said that its main goal was preventing this conflict from spreading wider, from preventing the united states from being dragged deeper into this conflict. they put in place several deterrents. they sent more u.s. troops to this

region, more carrier strike groups to this region. but those deterrence haven't stopped those iranian-backed militia groups from repeatedly striking u.s. assets in this region. we have heard u.s. officials say that many of those attacks were unsuccessful, that the impact on u.s. service members in this region was minor. many of them suffering injuries, but this latest attack definitely a major escalation, as we mentioned. this is the first time u.s. troops have been killed by enemy fire in the middle east since the israel-hamas war began on october 7th. so, no doubt, serious contemplation and consideration being taken as to what the next steps will be, and how this will more broadly impact this region and the united states, amen. >> allie raffa live for us at the white house, thank you for staying up for us this evening. really appreciate your reporting on this. let's continue the conversation now

with matt -- international policy. he is, of course, a former foreign policy adviser for senator bernie sanders. matt, it's good to have you with us. you know, i wanted to get your thoughts on this sudden attack. it may seem a surprise to some, but the trend was that, as we've seen since october 7th, repeated attacks, i think more than 150 plus attacks on u.s. troops across the region in various ways, when is this escalation somewhat inevitable? >> unfortunately, i think it is. it is shocking. it's a tragedy -- we the injuring of many more. but we've seen as many as 70 attacks over the past several months since october 7th in various countries in the region. of course, we've been dealing with the problem of houthi attacks on shipping in the red sea. so, this, despite the biden administration's clear goal of

trying to prevent the spread of this wire, we've seen it steadily spread. and we are well into that escalation now with last nights attack. >> i was gonna say. it's israel, gaza, lebanon, yemen, syria, iraq, and now jordan that have all seen some kind of military involvement attack, as a result, including in the red sea. but when you look at this, it's hard to say that this is a situation that is calming down rather than escalating. >> that's right. i think it's clear that no one wants -- i, mean i think iran, as i understand, has made clear, it does not want to be drawn into an escalation. but at the same time, there are various proxy groups or partner groups, whatever term one would like to use -- i think the larger context here, and this is what we've been dealing with with the houthis as well, is that this catastrophe in gaza with, a now almost four month humanitarian crisis over 28,000 people killed, 2 million displaced, many on the brink of starvation, this catastrophe that is being backed unconditionally by the united states unfortunately has provided an environment and a context for a lot of these groups to kind of re-up their resistance bona fides against the united states and against the west. demonstrating that

they represent the real resistance voice in the region. one doesn't have to agree with that or defend these groups politically programs at all. but we have to recognize the political context it's been created by the u.s. backing up this war in gaza. >> as we set up in the introduction there, now, the calls for striking iran directly are growing. we -- military experts in washington who are not in the military but certainly outside and provide commentary, saying the u.s. should consider targeting iran directly, maybe even going after vessels, iranian vessels. would that work, given the fact that these organizations, this militants that were responsible for these militias, i should say, responsible for what we've

seen in jordan, perhaps even the houthis, are not directly linked -- we don't know if they were technically given an order from iran to carry out this attack. >> right. and any situation like this, especially one where americans have lost their lives, you're going to see the usual voices in washington from the kind of foreign national policy priesthood singing the same hymns about how we need to respond with strength, these are all the various expressions of faith that the washington foreign policy establishment espouses. but let's remember, this is what the united states has been doing for literal decades in this region. responding to violence with more violence, escalating violence, trying to control the violence. and it has not worked. we saw the statement from donald trump in response to thettacks. let's remember, four years ago, trump assassinated the iranian general soleimani, and in response to that, iran responded by attacking the al-assad air base in iraq with ballistic missiles that injured, that gave traumatic brain

injuries to some 100 american service members. it did very little, if anything, to actually deter iran, even in the short term. certainly, we can see it is done nothing to deter iran in the longer term. maybe we should try a different approach right now with iran and its partner groups. but also, let's look at the source of this current unrest, and that is gaza. until we are really willing to bring pressure to bear to end this conflict and to get desperately needed humanitarian aid to gaza's people, this will only get worse. >> so to that point, as the president box himself in by refusing to call for a cease-fire, by refusing to leverage more power that america has over ending this

where if it can do so at this point? and that is somewhat questionable, whether the current government in israel is even at all willing to listen to this administration. but has the president box some soften no? you've had the houthis and these militia groups in iraq and elsewhere demanding a cease-fire, and if it appears now that the u.s. comes with calls for a cease-fire, it may give them her perception of a win. that this change of course is a result of these kinds of military operations that carrying out in the region. >> you, know it may give them a perception of a win, but it happens, in my view, to be the right policy. to answer your question, yes, unfortunately, i think the president has boxed himself in, or at least taken several very important tools off the table. by making it clear that the united states will not bring any real pressure to bear on israel as it carries out this assault. it will not condition aid, it will say things about protecting civilians and wanting to get more humanitarian aid in. we'll get a few more trucks of aid inside here and there. but

until the president is really willing to shift policy, and use the united states enormous leverage on israel to change its behavior, unfortunately, i only see this getting worse. >> all right. we matt duss, matt, i really appreciate your time. thanks for joining us this evening. >> thank you. >> brace yourself for a rollercoaster of never-ending trump headlines this year, since it is still january, we want to get ahead of a debate that you're gonna see play out over the medias coverage of trump. what is enough, what is not, and how to do it. that's next. even days after using. most common side effects were nausea, indigestion, and stomach pain. ask about nurtec odt. i think i'm ready for this. heck, yeah! with e*trade you're ready for anything. marriage. kids. college. kids moving back in after college. (applause) finally, we can eat. ♪ you know you make me wanna... ♪ and then we looked around and said, "wait a minute, this isn't even our stroller!" (laughter)

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conservative media. fox news, you know, the websites, all of the good stuff. they just don't hold them accountable, because they are worried about losing viewers. >> i don't care how much you want to coordinate donald

trump. at the end of the day, that's not what americans want. americans want a choice, and we're going to give them a choice. >> you keep saying coordinates, lie, not tell the truth. i'm wondering why you think that we are the enemy. >> that was ron desantis and nikki haley pushing back on fox, both poor propping up donald trump and for sending them a clear message. dropped out of the race, and attend a coronation of trump. so, far desantis has answered that call, but hailie has yet to do so. now that is fox, but how will other outlets cover trump's 2024 campaign? what responsibility do all of us in the media have to assuage -- avoid the same mistakes made in 2016 and beyond. joining me now is angelo kara son, the president of the progressive media watchdog group, media matters. it's great to have you back on the show. let's start with the million dollar question, which is, how do you cover trump properly? how do you avoid normalizing him without the same time ignoring the threat, the singular threat that he poses to the democracy. >> yeah, man, that is the real challenge. there are a few lessons here that i think have not been baked in, or have not been fully lifted. don't allow him to go along to seep in,

because that can affect coverage. something really bad is going to happen. there's a massive attack on the media, saying trump is going to come and get, you get reelected. the right-wing has a strong history of working the reds. that should not allow recovers to get the sport. for example, when he's talking about nazis, the nazi comments, and then looked at that coverage. and then looked at clinton's deplorable comments. the word deplorable is in a totally appropriate way. you've got 26 more times attention than donald trump quoting nazi. there are a few things, one is the inoculation of bias, which distorts their coverage. the second is go along to get along. those two things should be avoided. the most critical thing is to not be enforcing the narrative that he's telling about himself. some of the things that said or reported about donald trump are often

negative, but they are actually very powerful hit for his story, because they lead him to reinforce his brand. ultimately, that's his real strength, that he is telling and projecting a narrative. those are the three buckets. on the flip side, this critical piece, don't make it all about trump. it doesn't mean the year ignoring him. just say some of the economic benefits play out, donald trump's coverage of the economy in the news media was significantly better than president biden's is. even though president biden by every measurable indicator has had more economic success. that is not only the reflection of the internalized attempt to inoculate themselves against president biased, but also an example of what not to do. to me, that is -- if they follow those lessons, at least people can make an informed decision. >> very important points for all of us to heed the warning of. i wanted to get your thoughts on something that is not news related, but certainly media related. the return of john stewart to host the daily show on monday, at least until the election in november. especially after he left in

2015, he was a very influential figure. give me your thoughts on how influential our figures like jon stewart, john oliver, and others in terms of keeping people, younger people informed and spotlighting this threat to democracy that people like trump and the republican party and larger posing. other people that you think he could reach as a comedian, satirist, entertainer who otherwise might not be paying attention? >> i think that if you just look at the work that he has done, he's done more recently around pushing legislation for the -- sort of the first responders in the wake of the world trade center attacks in 9/11. that correspondence is an alliance. some of that media actually penetrated influence not just more mainstream and left wing media, that actually benefited conservative media. it tracks a shared voice. during that time period, one of the biggest shift in the political ties with the fact that it was john stewart's relentless pursuit of just what was actually happening around

this legislation, and why it was so important. and actually conservative audiences -- that then the lead to political pressure on republicans. i use that as a jump point, because i'm not going to overstate the influence of john stewart here, but as you noted in your question, there are very few people that have real truth telling capacity these days, and trust ability. he's one of those figures. on top of, that he's shown a consistent ability to constantly choose -- isn't going to be a game-changer? no. is it significant in a moment where we are dealing with deepfakes, potential foreign interference, a massive avalanche of disinformation? i don't think, though, it will be the people watching his show live there will be the difference maker. as you know, it will be like john oliver. the clips in segments that really penetrated get saturation online. >> that is a very important point as well, the digital landscape and online landscape continuously evolving from election cycle to election cycle. angelo carusone, a pleasure to see you, and thank you for joining us this

evening. and a quick programming note. tomorrow, e. jean carroll and her attorneys robbie kaplan and sean crowley join rachel maddow live to discuss the verdict for donald trump in the defamation trial. make sure to catch that tomorrow. rachel maddow interviewing e. jean carroll and her attorneys on the rachel maddow show. after this, my conversation with a decorated former israeli security chief about the war in gaza, and more on tonight's breaking news. three american service members killed by a drone strike in jordan. ♪ ♪ ♪ most common side effects were nausea, indigestion and stomach pain. talk to your doctor about nurtec today. (♪♪) some people just know that the best rate for you is a rate based on you, with allstate. not one based on paul. you don't want to ride with paul. or sarah, not today anyway.

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with nurtec odt, i can treat a migraine when it strikes and prevent migraine attacks, all in one. don't take if allergic to nurtec. allergic reactions can occur, even days after using. most common side effects were nausea, indigestion, and stomach pain. ask about nurtec odt. back with some breaking news. we have just learned the amount of u.s. personnel hurt in the attack in jordan, it has now risen. we knew that it already included three u.s. service members. it happened today in northeast jordan near the syrian border town known as tower 22.

biden has blamed, quote, iranian-backed militant groups for the attack. that number of injured personnel is expected to fluctuate as service members continue to seek care. we are told that eight personnel required evacuation from jordan, to get a higher level of care. they are now in stable condition. we will let you know any more information as we get it. meanwhile, cia director william burns was in paris today, participating in a fourth round of negotiations with israeli, egyptian, and qatari officials to try and help secure the release of hostages released and gaza. trying to end the war. after that meeting ended, a spokesperson from netanyahu's office issued a statement which read in part, quote, the meeting was defined as a constructive meeting. there are still significant gaps in which the parties will continue to discuss this week in additional mutual meetings. a source familiar with the negotiations tells nbc news that the contours of the deal are coming together, but emphasized that an agreement is not imminent. earlier, i spoke with --

a former decorated head of israel's navy and shin bet, that is the states domestic security service. he is also the offer of the friendly fire: how israel became its own worst enemy, and it's hope for the future. i started out by asking ami where the israel's military strategy stands today, over 100 days into the war. here's what he had to say. >> first of all, we don't know. the war just started. i don't think it's the right strategy, because as long as we don't define the day after, meaning if we can't describe in clear terms the day after, it means that we do not have any idea of the essence of victory. any strategy without the finished definition of the victory, which in my eyes is first to bring back all the hostages, and second, to destroy or dismantle the military capabilities of hamas

and to make sure that its leaders will not go leading palestinians in gaza. these are the two military objectives. they are achievable. but since it is not combined with a clear picture of the day after, i don't think it is the right strategy. >> do you think that this current government of the prime minister, benjamin netanyahu, still has the confidence of the israeli people to pick up this war? i have seen growing protests demanding negotiation for hostages. that is something that he has been reluctant to do throughout this. he has felt that the war was going to bring about the release of the hostages. >> personally, i think that the leader who is responsible for the 7th of october, which is probably -- i don't know, the largest or most horrible event that the

jewish people suffered or experienced or faced since the end of the holocaust. should be fired or take responsibility. i don't think there's leaders that can lead us. the example that i gave earlier, the fact that he is not ready to discuss the day after, it is not because he does not know anything about it, it is because politically he does not have the courage or political power to do it. once he will try to do it, his coalition will fall apart. and so i think that it is time for him to go on and take responsibility. i hope that we should see it sooner than later. >> as you probably are aware, sir, a dozen israeli ministers, including some from netanyahu's

likud party, participated in a conference for it rebuilding israeli settlements in gaza, with some encouraging the displacement of palestinians from the area. you were a senior member in the israeli military. you headed the security service, the internal security services. what is your reaction when you hear the israeli ministers calling for the resettlement of gaza, and the reoccupation of gaza, and the displacement of palestinians. what do you think that does to the long term prospects? >> i just want to add to your questions. they are doing it two days after the decision of the international court. the international court insisted that all of the people who support more violence, and especially people who believe in transfer, doing something which is -- against the international law.

i think it is against the interests of the israeli people and the state of israel. i cannot support it. i know, and i think that it is not mentioned in the public debate, they represent less than 15% of the people in israel. politically, they are a small minority. but since in israel we have a coalition system of democracy, it is based on a coalition system. unfortunately, they get the microphone and the world believe that they represent the israeli people and the israeli government. it is a huge mistake. >> before i go, sir, i wanted to ask you one question about the relationship between the united states and israel. and today specifically, the breaking news of a drone attack on united states forces inside of jordan. three u.s. soldiers were killed. how do you think the united states has been handling this

war, with its support for israel and the prime minister, now that the united states is becoming increasingly under attack across the region, both in the red sea, and now as we saw in places in like iraq and places like jordan? >> i see america in the eyes of the israeli citizens. i think the american president has shown his friendship. in ways that we never saw. we never saw this level and magnitude of support and friendship, emotionally and practically, since, i don't know, i remember wars. it is obvious that america is paying a huge price. but let me tell you the way that i see it, again, from my point of view as an israeli. the conflict between israelis and palestinians is not only

between israelis and palestinians. today, even before, but specifically after the 7th of october, it is obvious. it is a regional conflict. in a way, it is becoming almost a global conflict because when china is confronting america, the middle east is the place that we see today. china is here in the middle east and trying to shape the middle east in the future. china cannot give up on the middle east because of energy. it comes from the persian gulf. and so i think that when america is doing, the american president understands that it's not only the interests of the israelis and the israeli democracy, it is the interests of the region in order to create stability. it is in the interest of america if america wants to

have some influence in the middle east. >> all right, ami ayalon, i really appreciate your insights and thank you for making time for us this evening. >> thank you very much. switching gears after the break to some surprisingly divisive news coming out of hollywood. stay with us. ♪ ♪ ♪ deliciously superior nutrition, too. for us, it's eggs any style. as long as they're the best. eggland's best.

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voice of cultural issues of the year is turning out to be, like it or not, barbie. the film that took over the world last summer, shattering records as the biggest box office winner of 2023 and the highest grossing movie directed by a woman ever. there is a torrent of backlash, and backlash to the backlash overwhelming this internet this week when the oscar nominations came out. as several outlets described it, everyone lost their minds. barbie was nominated in eight categories, including best picture. but director greta gerwig was left off of the best direors list, and margot robbie did not get a nomination. many fans felt strongly that gerwig and robbie were snubbed

and took out their furry online, while others found the outrage to be disproportionate. we decided to step back and look at both sides of the barbie debate. for those that haven't seen barbie, the character played by america ferreira, who is nominated by best supporting actress, delivers a two and a half minute monologue near the end of the movie that pretty much sums it up. here's a clip. >> you have to never get old, never be rude, never show off, never be selfish, never fall down, never fail, never show fear. never get out of line. it is too hard. it's too contradictory. >> for many fans, the irony is just that. two of the leading women behind a movie that calls out the patriarchy were overlooked by their creative contributions in the male dominated film industry. in a move some see as a case in point, ryan gosling was nominated for best supporting actor for his role as ken.

gosling responded, writing in a statement, there is no ken without barbie, and there is no barbie movie without greta gerwig and marco robbie. no recognition would be possible for anyone in the film without their talent and genius. it brings to mind oscar host billy crystal's 1992 bit about barbara streisand for directing the prince of tides. he famously said, did the movie direct itself? barbie also reinvigorated people's enthusiasm, bringing viewers back to theaters just when cinemas needed audiences the most. it also marks notable success for a woman director, in an industry where, according to one study, only 6% of directors of top grossing films between 2007 and a 2023 were women, 6%. what about those that don't see it this all as one big snub? some argue that for one, barbie is not the first crowd pleaser to be overlooked by the academy. that happens quite often.

whoopi goldberg, an academy member that has hosted the oscars multiple times, put it this way. quote, there are no snubs, not everybody gets a prize. some say that the fury over gerwig and robbie has also taken away from other historic nominations, including lily gladstone, who ithfirst native american best actress nominee for her leading role in killers t flower moon. it is worth adding that both gerwig ande were nominated. gerwig was nominated for best adapted screenplay with noah baumbach, and robbie's work as an executive producer is acknowledged with barbie's best picture nomination. and it reoccurring argument is that ithe epitome of white feminism. as jezebel notes, the out of proportion outrage fans are feeling ghghts the film's failure to convey a core tenet of feminism to its audnce. a personal slight against some -profile privileged white woman is not an affront to the gains of womenhood overall. fans also point out that the emphasis on robbie and gerwig

overshadows another arguable snub of two women of color, past lives a best picture nominee, director celine song, and leading actresses greta lee, both korean women, were not nominated for their work on the film. all of this begs the question the outrage over the so-called snubs valid or completely overblown? we'll be right back to debate this with our panel, msnbc columnist liz plank, a variety senior editor clayton davis. editor clayton davis. ... probably should use old spice too. ♪ (old spice whistle) ♪ with nurtec odt, i can treat a migraine when it strikes and prevent migraine attacks, all in one. don't take if allergic to nurtec. allergic reactions can occur, even days after using. most common side effects were nausea, indigestion, and stomach pain. ask about nurtec odt.

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into the oscars controversy. an avalanche are -- of opinions around barbie's lead and director not being nominated by the academy. joining me, liz plank, msnbc columnist. she is the author of for the love of men: a new mind for matt -- mindful masculinity. and senior editor at awards a variety. liz, i will start with you. the response to all the

internet reactions over the barbie nomination, or lack thereof? where do you stand on this? >> thank you for having me to talk about this very important issue tonight. i kind of have a theory that every conversation that we are having about the barbie movie is not actually about the barbie movie. it is about you. it's such an interesting thing for people to express their emotions, to express their views and perspectives. there is no shortage of them, as you said in your amazing montage and review of all of it. look, no matter how you feel about the barbie movie. i think that we can all agree that the academy awards is a mojo delgado casts a house. we know that 67% of voters are male, and 50% of them are white. we know that the best director category is highly overemphasizsh male talent over female talent. in 100 years, only eight women have ever even been nominated

and only one woman of color has ever won that category. there is a big imbalance. should we be spending just as much time talking about celine song being snubbed in that category instead of greta gerwig? absolutely. should this not be taking away from so many of the historic wins that you mentioned, like america ferierra. lily gladstone, as the first indigenous woman to be nominated for the best actress category. absolutely. i am glad that we are talking about it. i think that we should be talking about all of those things. i don't think that we have -- i don't think that you have a very expressing mindset when you talk about the barbie movie, and you talk about the oscars. >> i think you're right. and you hit on something very important. that is that this is symbolic of a broader conversation in society. is not just about barbie, but it's about how we view the academy awards. who gets snubbed, who doesn't get snubbed. how to prioritize them. i want to get your take, because you've been talking to members of the academy and voters on barbie. what are you hearing about voter's thoughts on this debate, and why greta gerwig and margot robbie were not nominated for

best director and best actress respectively? >> well, when you look at academy history, it should be no surprise that comedies were left out of the top categories. in tradition, they have not always shown a love for comedy movies. a lot of the academy members i was speaking to up until nomination morning were sharing their thoughts, saying they thought barbie was good, not great. they had trouble seeing it beyond just a movie about a toy that comes to life. so there's a very nuanced conversation. it's multi layer. yes, there is a problem with women getting the recognition in this industry. and that should not be lost. but i'd like to remind everyone the ninth latina ever nominated in supporting actress, america ferreira, they're costars, we have not spoken about her in the last week. instead, we've been focusing on these two women who are nominated, that they did not get a second nomination on the day. snubs happen all the time, there are ten spots and best

picture, five and director. greta gerwig, we had the discussion about it. but justine tree a, nominated for anatomy of a fall, a woman director, not being spoken out, again, because this is the first time the public had been really invested in the highest grossing film of the year being in the oscar race. and i would say it's a miracle that barbie even made it this far. >> it's definitely an important point that you bring about the comparisons. and i think to liz's point, if i can go back to it for a second, this reflection of a male dominated industry, as you both pointed out, where women filmmakers and actresses aren't properly recognized. is there validity to the argument that barbie had limitations as a crowd pleaser and blockbuster film, that that should never be the factor in the movie, liz, in the consideration for the awards? >> i mean, yeah, i totally agree. and part of why there is so much outweighs is because so many people saw the movie. and it's a rarity.

and especially in the last few years, for some people to have actually gone to a movie theater. i mean, i can't remember the last time i plan to go see a movie on the day that it premiers. and it wasn't just me, and that people were dressing up for it. obviously, there is oppenheimer going on at the same time, so there are other factors at play. but they did pull in huge audiences to come back to an industry that many people believed was over. people thought, well, people are just gonna be watching movies at home. and the oscars, you know, to just bring it up, because they aren't keeping up with the times, i think, in many respects, they are losing audiences. so it doesn't make a lot of sense to me why you would leave out a movie and the people who are associated with it who are helping revive the business that you are a part of and you are depending on. and just on the note of social media outreach -- outrage, i think that social media outrage can be a good

thing. i remember in 2015, the hashtag oscar's so white, april rain changed the oscars forever. and the movement was created because of her doubled the amount of black nominees and nominees of color that we saw in the following years. so i think these conversations really matter. >> is there, cleaton, a discussion taking place in hollywood that you are aware of and privy to, just based on the reporting and conversations with industry insiders, about the need to have more reflection or more, i guess, the synchronization between what is in the public discussion and the public appetite, and the awards? or is that something that they're very guarded and do not want to have. i know that only members get to vote. but the truth is, do they even care about what the public thinks in any these conversations? >> i mean, what people tend to forget is being in the top five of anything is really difficult. so i'm getting whiplash and

duplicity of 2008, the dark night. went dark i got snubbed for best picture and director, christopher nolan was not at that oscars and, all despite being nominated for a pictures. next year, they expand the best picture lineup from 5 to 10 nominees in order to get more public recognized movies. now, if you look at history, and the last 25 years, barbie is the highest grossing film of 2023. three movies in that span have been nominated for both picture and director, saving private ryan, steven spielberg, james cavern, avatar, and peter jackson, the lord of the rings return of the king. it's not the academy's job to go after the highest grossing film of the year, it's their job to reflect the best achievements. not saying greta gerwig that's wasn't an achievement, but snubs happen all the time. we have to be very wary of that word snub. i'm aware the oscars will react to this and expand the director lineup, and i don't think that's what should happen. i think we should have the academy be open to more genres

and other types of movies there beyond dramas and international titles. >> totally, i was a fan of top gun, maverick, i'm not going to lie. i thought that was a pretty good movie, i thought a lot of people thought at least the script in that was pretty good. >> by the, way not nominated for best director, top gun. so this isn't just isolated to greta gerwig. this happens a lot. >> all right, really quickly, we have about 30 seconds. liz, i will give you a shot, rapid fire from both of, you will take home best director? >> i hope it's justine. i hope it's a woman. i'm biased. i thought it was a greek film as well. >> very great movie. clay, who do you think is going to get? it >> justine will win original screenplay or, -- will win on higher, as with best picture. >> we have the take. that's why he does it for a living, liz, we brought him on because he knows what he's talking about. appreciate you guys joining us. important question this week amid everything else going, and we thought we mix it up with all the news going on out

there. we really appreciate your insights. and we'll have the guys on after the oscars and see who is right. thank you both for making time for us at home. make sure to catch even every saturday and sunday at seven pm eastern right here on msnbc. following us on x and instagram at ament msnbc. in till we meet again, i'm ayman mohyeldin in new york. have a good one. a good one. with nurtec odt, i can treat a migraine when it strikes and prevent migraine attacks, all in one. don't take if allergic to nurtec. allergic reactions can occur, even days after using. most common side effects were nausea, indigestion, and stomach pain. ask about nurtec odt.

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as the world keeps moving, help prevent covid-19 from breaking your momentum. you may have already been vaccinated against the flu, but don't forget this season's updated covid-19 shot too. the sunday show with

jonathan capehart is next, with an update on the u.s. soldiers