president is tough on the border, too. i think among some skeptics that i've talked to, they worry that it is really hard to get to donald trump's right on immigration, and, you know, we'll see. i saw jake's interview earlier. i agree, it looks very unlikely that anything is going to pass out of either the senate or the house in the days ahead, given donald trump's opposition. >> so the problem will remain unaddressed and a political agenda item for the upcoming campaign. white house correspondent for "the new york times," michael shear, great analysis. thank you so much for joining us. thank you to all of you for getting up "way too early" with us on this monday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. trump had a stumble while talking about banks. he introduced a new term called de-bank. >> we're going to place strong protections to stop banks and regulators from trying to de-bank you. they want to de-bank you, and

we're going to de-bank. >> i don't know what the hell de-bank means, but he might have to take de-ambulance to see de-doctor. >> good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it is monday, january 29th. we have a lot to get to this morning, including the massive payout donald trump now owes e. jean carroll. >> talk about being de-banked. >> after a jury awarded the writer $83 million in defamation damages. we'll get expert legal analysis on that, as well as the looming case that could further impact donald trump's bank account. >> you know, that's the big one, really. >> a lot of de-banking. >> look at the fraud case, he's already found guilty. >> that one -- >> this is all just damages stage. >> i don't think he helped himself in the defamation case, though you haven't heard from him in the first time. has he defamed e. jean carroll since this came down on friday? i don't think he has. >> i haven't heard it yet.

>> came close on stage. >> it's what the jury tried to do. >> we shall see. meanwhile, on capitol hill, a bipartisan group of senators appear to be close to a deal for border security and foreign aid, but the package still faces threats from lawmakers who are loyal to trump. plus, heartbreak for the motor city. >> come on. >> the detroit lions, who have never made it to the super bowl, were stunned in the second half last night, losing to the san francisco 49ers, despite a 17-point lead at halftime. >> yeah. jonathan lemire, heartbreak for the motor city, but what an extraordinary story. can't believe they got as far as they did. nobody could believe they got as far as they did, and that's a game they can go through the offseason going, "we should have won. we need to do a better job next year." >> certainly a team on the rise. that's what lions fans are telling themselves this morning. they have young talent. they should be back in this situation, but we can't

overstate how devastating this was. they're only the fourth playoff team ever to blow a 17-point lead at halftime and lose the game. they could go no wrong in the first half. in the second half, a costly fumble. some terrible drops from wide receivers. some pretty suspect coaching decisions to turn down makeable field goals to go for it on fourth down. i know they're an aggressive team, and that's what they've done all year, but you needed points. you needed to slow the 49ers momentum. lucky ball that bounced off the lions' defender's helmet. such heartbreak for the long-suffering lions fans. >> such heartbreak, agree. what an extraordinary run. now, mika, of course, you saw the chiefs. the chiefs weren't playing around. we have the niners and the chiefs, replay of the super bowl. >> yeah. also with us, special correspondent for bbc news,

katty kay. and we begin this morning with the deaths of three u.s. service members in northeast jordan. it happened yesterday at a logistics support base for the u.s. military near jordan's border with syri a drone packed with explosives struck near a shelter where american troops were sleeping, killing three and injuring more than 30. president biden released a statement shortly after reading in part, quote, while we are still gathering the facts of this attack, we know it was carried out by radical iran-backed militant groups operating i syria and iraq. we will hold all those responsible to account at a time and in a manner of our choosing. >> let's bring in right now -- with us, former supreme allied commander of nato, retired four star navy admiral, james stavridis. he is chief international analyst for nbc news. admiral, thank you so much for

being with us. last week, we brought up a simple metaphor. the guy who sends people from across the street, comes over and constantly stealing things from your house or breaking windows in your house. we said, "what do you do?" take out the house across the street. tell them you'll call the cops or something. in this case, i just wonder, how much longer is the united states going to allow its troops to be shot at by people who are being funded by iran? at what point do we not just go to the source of the problem, which has been the source of the problem since 1979, and go to iran? if iran wants to continue killing americans or trying to kill americans, should we not at least sink one of their ships? should we not at least blow up their air force? should we not at least blow up their oil fields? pick one of the three. i don't care. >> when this occurred, after the blow to my heart of learning we

lost three of our best and 25 to 30 wounded, 10 evacuated, meaning they're at risk of life-threatening wounds, this is attack number 160 or so. joe, i am one who is always, let's try the diplomacy. let's try the incremental steps here. i think we are at the point where what is necessary is a hammer blow against the proxies. i'll expand on that in one moment. if that doesn't have the intended effect, yes, it is time to go after iran. so i think what the pentagon is doing -- i don't think -- i know what the pentagon is doing is building options for the president that will include increasing the intelligence collection, using cyber to go after both the proxies, probably iran, cia stepping up its game

inside iran. iran is using their proxies. maybe we can use a few proxies operating against the revolutionary guard, and the military strike packages speak for themselves. i think you'll see the president order another aircraft carrier, 80 combat aircraft back to the region to prepare in case we have to go after iran directly. by the way, if i were going to pick something, i would go after the ship at sea scenario. we've done that before. it's a very effective way and a very direct demonstration of american power. >> well, they're certainly going after our ships. what is the logic of the iranians? do they really want to fight a war with the united states? do they really want to go up against our military might? that will be over in a couple of weeks. what is the logic? >> their logic is three-fold.

one is to demonstrate globally, demonstrate to their partners, they're close with the iranians. they want to show the chinese they can maneuver through this vast land battle space through the middle east. the old persian empire. number two, they want to take advantage of the fact that israel is completely occupied with what's happening in gaza. normally, israel can be part of these kind of responses. they are very tied down. that looks to iran like an opportunity. number three, all politics are local. the iranians are trying to distract their internal population from growing resistance within the country of iran. much of it led, by the way, by women and girls. this becomes something going outside to slay monsters like the united states that they feel can distract the internal population. but bottom line, joe, no, they

don't want an all-out fight with the united states. i don't think it'll end up there. next step, we're going to have to have a campaign of days, if not weeks, to really denude these proxies. we need in our back pocket the strike plan for iran. >> okay. let's bring in nbc news national security and military correspondent courtney kube. what are you hearing from military leaders? >> so this was a one-way attack drone. it landed at a place called tower 22, which a lot of our viewers have probably never heard of and, frankly, a lot of people in the military just don't talk about. it is a small outpost in northeastern jordan. it is just on the other side of syria. it functions as a base where they train and advice the jordanian military, but it is also really a logistical hub or support facility for the u.s. military garrison that's just on the other side in syria. there's a small number of u.s. troops there.

it is about 350 mainly soldiers and airmen who are performing this function. this one-way attack drone, it got through the air defenses of this base and was able to land and explode right near a shelter where troops were sleeping. that's why we saw such a high casualty number here. three killed, u.s. soldiers killed, and now we're up to about three dozen injured. mika, that's everything from minor cuts and bruises. there are a number of traumatic brain injuries. we expect that number could rise. but there were also a number of u.s. service members who were injured badly enough in this attack that they had to be medevaced out. we expect to hear more today. secretary of defense lloyd austin returns to the pentagon today after being gone for his emergency hospitalizations with the complications surrounding his prostate surgery. we'll be back in the building, and we hope we will hear a little bit more about this today. this is the first time, as we've been saying, that u.s. troops

have been killed by one of these iranian proxy groups since this uptick in attacks back in mid-october by these groups. we've seen more than 160 attacks against bases in iraq and syria, many of them drones like the one we saw at tower 22, but there have also been advanced ballistic missiles. there have been rockets, mortars that have been launched. this is not the first time we've had americans wounded in these attacks. we have had dozens, frankly, who have been wounded, mainly traumatic brain injuries, but this is the first time any have been killed. we're expecting to hear more from the pentagon about it today. but a pretty tragic event. the real question now is, does this become -- have a real impact on the potential escalation for what is already an extremely tense situation in the middle east, mika. >> that is the question. nbc news national security and military correspondent courtney kube, thank you very much for your reporting this morning. >> jonathan lemire, this seems

pretty simple to most americans. if the iranians are funding one group after another after another, they keep injuring or killing u.s. servicemen and women, most americans would say, you know, you can keep shooting at the three or four different groups that the iranians are funding, or you can go straight to the source. is the white house considering going straight to the source? >> so this is the day the white house has dreaded since october 7th and since the escalation of violence in the middle east. they don't want a widening war. they didn't want to be brought to this moment. >> well, they have one because, you know, the thing is, iranians keep killing americans. the iranians keep wounding americans. the iranians keep trying to get other people to kill americans. the war has arrived. the regional war is here. if we don't take it to iran, americans are going to keep getting killed. >> let me --

>> but let me ask you, does the white house understand that? >> yeah, let me bring you into white house thinking right now. to this point, until yesterday, the white house has been selective on how they responded. attacks that weren't successful, the military was able to knock down, the white house ignored. only the houthi attacks that led to a resulted attack on a ship, let's say, that was successful, they responded to. we've seen a number of strikes from the u.s., sometimes with help from our uk partners, in response to these iranian-backed splinter groups. but this is different now. american troops are dead. i am told white house advisors in a secure video conference with president biden, who was in south carolina campaigning over the weekend, they're mulling over their options. no decision yet made, but one of the options is striking within iran itself. unclear what the target would be. these are things that will be worked out in the days ahead as president biden himself said, in the manner and time of their choosing. that's been the biden approach

throughout his presidency. they make the choice. they're not going to be rushed into it. they're going to consider what to do. but there's no doubt, joe, no doubt, a line was crossed yesterday. these are american troops who were killed, and, therefore, it is going to require a different sort of response. katty, let's talk about what they could do and what the ramifications might be. because they could, yes, hit these militant groups even harder to try to permanently cripple them as best they can. they could go within iran itself, but the latter choice, which a lot of republicans are really pushing for this administration to do, could further inflame the situation, widen the war that much more. what is the latest you're hearing? >> the reason we have the two aircraft carriers there in the mediterranean is prevent the widening of this war. when it comes to hezbollah, there seems to be a certain amount of success. it seems to be a deterrent. then you had the americans striking down in yemen against the houthis. so far, while the houthis have carried on wielding their attacks, they haven't been as deadly as this one. now, you have this drone attack,

and as you say, the implication is that there has to be some kind of different level of response. but you calibrate that against striking inside iran and what that would lead to. what are the ramifications of that? admiral, let me bring you in here. you're the military man. if we were to take that option out of your back pocket and the white house were to put it on the table, obviously, whenever you strike inside a country that has an advanced weapons system of its own, and we've seen the precision, i think, with some surprise, of iranian missile attacks against pakistan recently, perhaps surprising some observers who didn't realize how precise some of the iranian weapon systems were, and effective the iranian weapon systems were. what are the implications for the white house? what are they weighing here? because it is a big move to go and strike inside iran. what are the possible ramifications of that? >> it is. they'll start by not striking inside iran on land, but i believe firmly they'll go after

maritime assets. that's extremely proportional to the houthi attacks. that's why ships at sea become pretty attractive targets. next level, closer to iran, katty, would be oil and gas platforms which the iranians use as intelligence gathering sites. these are all over the arabian gulf, all over the coast of the north arabian sea. those are pretty attractive targets, as well. number three, it probably would go after coastal targets, again, keeping with that maritime theme, take out dock yards, fuel stocks, command and control networks. all of this accompanied by cyber which you would go inside iran but with cyber. your last resort, but highly controversial and potentially dragging you into war, would be cruise missile strikes. i don't think you want manned aircraft over iran.

you don't need to. cruise missile strikes to go after, for example, armaments, where the iranians are building drone systems, where they are building all of the ballistic missiles they're supplying to these individuals. to take joe's analogy one more time, if that difficult neighbor shows up with a baseball bat or a gun, you go after the factory where the gun is made and where the baseball bat is made. i think that's your inside iran target. you could put together the whole package. we certainly have the capability to do that. i think that detailed plan is in development, and i can assure you, there are already rough drafts of it flying around. >> all right. retired four-star admiral james stavridis, thank you very much. everyone, standby. in one minute, $83.3 million. we're going to talk about the price donald trump has to pay for defaming writer e. jean

carroll yet again. we'll talk about the implications of this massive judgment. >> wow. >> we'll be right back.

what is unique about this case is that the jury has now ruled. they've found him liable of sexual abuse. do you not trust the jury and their findings, ambassador? >> i absolutely trust the jury. i think that they made their decision based on the evidence. i just don't think that should take him off the ballot. i think the american people will take him off the ballot. i think that's the best way to go forward, is not let him play the victim. let him play the loser. that's what we want him to do at the end of the day. >> you know, it is interesting, she talked about him being a loser. she also was tough talking about how he was in mental decline. >> yes. sharpening her attacks for sure. nikki haley on "meet the press" reacting to the $83.3 million in damaging a federal jury says

former president donald trump must pay writer e. jean carroll for repeatedly defaming her. the nine-person jury reach add verdict in just under three hours on friday. afterwards, judge kaplan told the jury, whose names and details were kept anonymous throughout the trial, that while they are now free to speak publicly, he did not advise it. the decision came after a day of contentious closing arguments that included trump storming out of the courtroom at one point. he returned for his attorney's closing arguments but left the courthouse before the verdict was read. the jury awarded carroll just over $7 million in comnsatory damages, another $11 million for damages to her reputation, followed by a whopping $65 million in punitive damages. after the verdict, trump called the decision ridiculous and

vowed to appeal. carroll's lawyer said it shows the law applies to everyone in our country. last year, a jury found trump abused and defamed carroll. this trial was to determine the damages carroll would receive. >> what did you think? >> well, i was -- well, it is good to see an actual consequence playing out with donald trump. i think a lot of people have questions as to how long he can drag out an appeal, not to have to pay the money. then, of course, we're looking ahead to the weeks to come for the civil fraud trial against him that could cost him a lot of money. this could undermine the former president in ways that perhaps on the political side of things people didn't expect. >> you do get the sense with this, especially over the weekend, the relative silence regarding e. jean carroll. >> yeah. >> trump to her. you do get the sense that the jury's goal was to put a punitive damages number that would stop the egregious

behavior, stop the defamation, and they may have succeeded at that. they may have succeeded at that because so many people have said, "he is eventually going to have to pay this. he is going to have to pay a lot up front just to post the bond." >> i don't know why he didn't know this before. like, it's -- anyhow -- >> it's it interesting? >> what lawyers do you have? >> we talked about it, over the last several years, it was almost like the laws of gravity were suspended and people could say whatever they wanted as it pertained to speech. you see the infowar guy is bankrupted by lying about the sandy hook parents. >> yup. >> when he did that, you were like, who -- wait, people can do that in america? but they can't do that in america. when rudy giuliani lied about two black women who were trying to help georgia and be public servants, he lied about them. just made up a lie about them. you sat there and went, wait a second. can you do that in america?

is that -- i didn't think you could do that. ended up you couldn't. he is going bankrupt now. then you have the same thing with donald trump. i mean -- >> fox news. >> yeah, and fox news because of former hosts on fox news. then donald trump thinking, well, i can defame a woman. i can keep defaming a woman. i can be found guilty of sexually abusing her. i can still lie about her. i can still defame her. i can still say terrible things about her because i'm donald trump. and the jury, finally, finally, came in and said, "yeah, you're donald trump, and you're going to owe e. jean carroll $83 million." so we see, you know, one idiot at a time. i've got to say it, one idiot at a time, do they not know there are defamation laws in america? one idiot at a time, whether

you're talking the info wars guy, rudy giuliani, now donald trump, you know. they've screwed around and found out what happens when you defame people over and over again. >> but the thing is, he was found liable for defamation. what we were waiting for was the outcome of how much he had to pay, and he kept doing it. >> kept defaming her. >> making the cost higher and higher. >> yeah. >> let's find out how it works, though, moving forward. joining us now, former litigator and msnbc legal analyst lisa rubin. and founder of the conservative website, the bulwark, charlie sykes. >> lisa, let me ask you the question mika has been asking me. >> well, everyone has different answers. >> all weekend, all weekend. >> no. >> you're a lawyer. you should know. you're a lawyer. you should know. mika wants to know, first of all, how much money will donald trump have to pay to post bond and do his appeal or whatever. >> yeah. >> that's number one. number two, she wants to know, like a lot of people, when .

jean carroll is actually going to get her money. >> lisa, if you say, "oh, it can take years," dot, dot, dot. that is not specific enough. >> not a good answer. what is the word, lisa? >> let me give you the satisfying part first. someone is going to have to post a bond in 100% plus of the verdict here. the bigger question is who that is. many defendants in situations like this will find a company that will post a surety for them, then you pay, as donald trump did, for example, in the fulton county case, you pay a percentage of the verdict to the person who posts the bond. in new york, the last time e. jean carroll won against donald trump, he wasn't able to secure that. he ended up putting $5.6 million in an escrow account directly with the court. it'll be interesting to see if any surety is willing to put themselves out there for donald trump in exchange for 10% to 20%

plus collateral. my guess is he will be harder pressed to find that person in new york than he was, for example, in georgia when he faced that fulton county indictment. with respect to how long it'll take, mika, here is the unsatisfying part of our answer. i don't know. donald trump certainly will take an appeal here. he is also appealing the underlying verdict from last may that found him liable for defamation and sexual assault in the first instance. here's the good news or the silver lining, you can't campaign a defamation verdict away. it is a civil liability, not a criminal one. being president doesn't afford you any special rights to wipe the slate clean, as donald trump would like to do with respect to this case, or the new york attorney general's case where we're waiting for judge engoran to deliver an opinion, and where the new york attorney general asked for $370 million in

discouragement, in addition to other penalties. >> can a family member put up the money? certainly, he has family members who received a lot of money from different places. on the civil trial, what's the timeline on a result? >> let's start with the family member. can a family member put up money? i suppose a family member could put up that money. however, with respect to his two adult sons who are also defendants in that new york attorney general's case, there's already a preliminary injunction in place in the monitor, judge jones, and the existing pieces of the preliminary injunction prohibits the trumps from transferring money back and forth without permission from the monitor and judge ngoran.

it is possible, but it is not as if they can do it without notify ing authorities as it is. in terms of the timing for judge engoron, he made a decision that he'd try to get a decision by january 31st. he got a letter late last week from judge jones where over 12 pages, she details ways in which the trump organization's financial reporting is still fundamentally flawed and places where she didn't get documentation of financial transactions where she'd expect to find it. she said a $48 million loan that donald trump made to his own companies in respect to the trump chicago property, she couldn't find any documentation of that. in essence, that loan, which donald trump has been talking about for years, apparently doesn't exist. stay tuned, mika. >> hmm. >> what a surprise. charlie sykes, i've just got to say, with the backdrop of this trial and all the details, and

the judge having to explain the type of sexual assault donald trump committed, here we have just -- we just passed iowa, where the majority of evangelicals that went out in sub-zero temperatures to vote for their christ-like figure, in their eyes, is a guy that now -- i mean, let's just line it up -- paid illegal push money payments to a porn star, did so to a playboy bunny. we have the "access hollywood" admissions where he said he sexually abused women, saying they let you do it. we have this jury verdict. we have the judge and jury saying what donald trump did is rape. now, we have an $83 million defamation payout. i don't think donald trump will be able to afford it. he certainly can't afford the

$350 million fraud payments. this is who our evangelical brothers and sisters in our former party, this is who they're supporting. >> well, happy monday to you, too. yeah, this is a decision they made a few years ago. they're all in. this all adds up, doesn't it? i mean, it'll all add up. there is a cumulative weight of this. you can measure it. you were walking through all of the defamation settlements and everything, you know, the price of lies. you add up all of the baggage that donald trump is bringing into this campaign. it is one of those extraordinary moments in american political history. also, the amount of damage that this man has done to the american culture, just leaving aside the politics, what it's done to the evangelical church, what it has done to our sense of what is acceptable and what is not acceptable. we're talking about a case here, $83 million case about defamation. fundamentally, at the bottom, it

is about the fact that the former president of the united states raped a woman. despite that, he's the leading candidate for the presidential nomination this year. you know, strap in. this is what 2024 is going to be line for the rest of us. as nikki haley is pointing out, republicans, are you paying attention to what you are about to buy into? nikki haley said she's going to endorse donald trump even if he is criminally convicted, that she'd pardon him, but she's clearly not campaigning for vice president anymore. she is trying to say, "before you buy in, at least let's notice the character, the ability of the man that you are about to put on the presidential ticket again." >> yeah, it is pretty clear that haley realized she has no future in a trump republican party, so why not? if he's going to go down, go down swinging. lisa, back to the legal apects of this for a moment.

we got the defamation verdict on friday. could get the civil fraud verdict any day now. there is another thing looming, which people are waiting for, the federal appeals court in washington, ruling on trump's claim to have total immunity, presidential immunity. there was expectations we were going to get that decision a couple weeks ago. it still hasn't happened. what's your sense of the delay? when and what might we see? >> i think we're going to see a decision that, in some way, shape, or form, says trump is not immune from prosecution in the federal election interference case. how broad or narrow that ruling is is likely what is taking some time here. these are three judges who also know their decision is going to be reviewed by the supreme court in all likelihood. they are trying to make that decision, i would imagine, as bulletproof as possible. i think the biggest holdup, john, is getting all three of them to agree exactly on the rationale for denying him immunity. because a decision of three judges that is unsigned by any

one of them, a procurium decision, would be more force than a decision where two judges give an opinion and another concurs but maybe on slightly different reasoning. they want a unified front here, and they'll try to get it as best they can. that's my prediction of what is happening. of course, i have no insight into that. >> former litigator and msnbc legal analyst, lisa rubin, we'll see you again very soon. thank you very much. >> thanks. now to the bipartisan group of senators continuing to inch closer to a deal on border security and foreign aid after months of negotiations. house republican leadership and former president trump continue to try and thwart the legislation. speaker mike johnson issued a statement criticizing president biden's support of the bill, saying the president already has the power to act without this proposed legislation. >> that is his new excuse to stab ukraine in the back and let

fentanyl flood across the border. >> take a listen to what senator james langford, the lead republican negotiator, had to say about the package, followed by what president trump said on the campaign trail. >> this bill focuses on getting us to zero illegal crossings a day. there is no amnesty. it increases the number of border patrol agents, asylum officers. it increases detention beds so we can quickly detain and deport individuals. it ends catch and release. it focuses on additional deportation flights out. it changes our asylum process to people get a fast asylum screening at a higher standard and then returned to their country. >> the house, as you know, the speaker, who, by the way, is -- i think he is going to prove to be a very good speaker. it is tough when you have a very small majority. very tough. mike johnson, speaker, he just said it is dead on arrival in the house. it is dead on arrival. we want either a strong bill or

no bill, and whatever happens, happens. but this is the single greatest threat to our country right now. >> well, jonathan lemire, that's what republicans have been saying. the border crossings. yet, donald trump is saying, "keep the border open. keep it open for another year. don't do any deal." there you heard james langford go down item after item after item after item, proving this is the toughest border security deal ever. yet, trump is opposing the conservative deal, just like he hopes the economy crashes, as he said, because he wants there to be a depression before he is president. >> it is some of the most nakedly cynical politics we have ever seen. donald trump is actively rooting against the country, rooting against the country for his own political benefit, whether it be about the economy, certainly here at the border. senator langford is about as conservative as they come. we heard him and other

republicans in recent days all say the same thing from the senate. lindsey graham, john thune, others saying, this is a really tough deal. we're not going to get a better deal. even if we win back the majorities and the white house next year. we should take this deal. at least for now, much of the house and some of the senate seem cowed by donald trump. let's bring in congressional investigations reporter for "the washington post," jackie alemany, to give an update on negotiations. you're so plugged in. what i heard over the weekend is that there is a lot of pessimism right now that we might see the draft text, we might see the senate bill in coming days, but there is real concerns it won't get through the upper chamber, necessarily, and forget about the house. >> that's exactly right, john. we're going to see this text that lawmakers in the senate chamber have been working on for months now, along with department of homeland secretary mayorkas, but there may not be a vote that will materialize over concerns of a tough vote that is

set up for failure in the house. i talked to one house republican involved with these conversations between trumpland, the trump campaign, and house republicans, who said that if it were up to trump in several months, the government would be shut down and no border deal would be done, and that trump's catch phrase would be, "joe biden opened the government, shut down the border," and he'd repeat it over and over and over again. what you're seeing is raw politics at play here. trump not wanting this border to go through, and republicans worried that it's going to ultimately cause them their seat and electoral demise if they go against the de facto nominee of the republican party who so vehemently is campaigning against this deal right now. democrats see a bit of an opening here. while it is politically tenuous for them and tricky for some more liberal republicans, democrats, people who represent border states to support some of

these, as you noted, very tough provisions, they also realize that it is going to be hard for republicans to campaign against the message that republicans are against catch and release, shutting down the border if there's over 5,000 illegal migrations a day. that it is more difficult to get asylum. there's increased detention facilities. these are things democrats envision can be excellent campaign talking points against republicans if this deal ultimately fails, which, right now, if you're listening to house speaker johnson, it seems what it is destined for. >> what i don't get about speaker johnson, joe, like you give the list. nikki haley even does the list now, of all the losses donald trump has brought to the republican party. >> yeah. >> loss after loss after loss. do we now need to make a long list of losers who have basically bended to trump's

every whim, only to find he'll return around and kick you in the face a day later if he feels like it? >> i don't understand it. >> like, what does he think he is getting out of this? >> yeah, heends up throwing everybody overboard. here is nikki haley on the deal. >> my message to republicans is, do not leave d.c. until you finish the job. donald trump, the last thing he needs to do is tell them to wait to pass a border deal until the election. we can't wait one more day. but they do need to get this right. >> nikki haley -- >> there's your contrast. >> yeah, nikki haley is telling the truth there, charlie. they need to pass the deal that langford and the other conservatives, like john thune call the toughest border security bill ever. >> yeah. >> nikki haley over the weekend also talked about trump being in decline. you know, we've seen his mental decline. she talked about how, you know, the verdict -- she's talked about a lot of things. finally, we have a republican candidate that's actually

talking about the person they're running against. >> we do. i'm mildly surprised that nikki haley has chosen that lane, since she's chosen so many others in the past. but, to your point, and what jonathan lemire described as the naked cynicism of the border politics is extraordinary. i'm so glad you played senator langford's soundbite. you know, it is a conservative republican dream. this bill gives them one of the biggest wins they've ever had, and they're about to tank their own agenda. you know, listen to what they are saying. they are saying that the border is an existential crisis that has to be dealt with right now. what are they doing? they're basically saying, we're going to do absolutely nothing because donald trump is telling us to do nothing. we're going to abandon ukraine. we are going to leave the border open. at the moment of international crisis, we are going to turn our backs on any possibility of

bipartisan compromise. it is really an extraordinary moment just in terms of the raw cynicism. again, the bill is a win for republicans by, you know -- in their own terms. >> right. >> you listen to senator langford running down that list of what it's doing. what is it you don't want, other than to tick off donald trump? there is no answer to it. >> jackie -- >> go ahead. >> sorry, mika. i was going to ask jackie. i was hearing bubbles of optimisms from democrats, particularly around the prospects of winning back the house. if they can campaign better in new york, california, they can mitigate some of the losses they suffered in 2022. what are you hearing from republicans in the house about the impact that not passing a bill like this could have on them in december in terms of managing to keep hold of the house? >> yeah, katty. the house was pretty quiet last week as they were on recess. we're going to be getting more incoming on that this week,

especially after trump's, you know, trouncing of nikki haley in iowa and then his victory in new hampshire, where he is becoming a bigger and bigger voice that republicans can't really ignore and are starting to be -- or will expect to be punished by trump if they start to speak out against him and go against some of the things that he is advocating for. but there are the same concerns that we saw in 2022 after the disappointing red wave, as everyone had expected, that ultimately didn't materialize. now, speaker johnson has essentially a two-vote majority where it's nearly impossible to get anything through, especially if trump touches it and advises members not to vote for it. so i think that, you know, republicans understand that they're headed for another potential electoral bloodbath, but it's this inevitable thing that they've sort of come to

accept so long as trump is the leader of the party. that's why you're seeing retirements, people just sort of taking a bow and these nods of resignation. we went through a laundry ligs list of members who, last week, came out forcefully against trump after the january 6th attack. people like nancy mace, who wanted to be the face of the republican party by the -- the new republican party by escaping from her office and getting punched by a rioter. two years later, she's endorsing trump and wants to rally for him in south carolina in the primary in a few weeks. >> yeah. >> you know, there are concerns, but i don't see anyone doing anything about it. >> yeah. it's pathetic. "the washington post"'s jackie alemany and the bulwark's charlie sykes, thank you, both, for being with us. i really appreciate it. jonathan lemire, katty kay, both of you jump into this.

breaking news from "the wall street journal," at least 12 u.n. palestinian refugee agency workers have ties to the october 7th terrorist slaughter in israel. about 10% of its gaza staff have links to militant groups. jonathan, that's obviously going to complicate u.n. -- the u.n. mission. that's an understatement, isn't it? ten of their agencies connected to the october 7th slaughter. >> yeah, significant development here. certainly, the israelis have been suggesting this for some time. they thought there was help from inside the organizations to hamas. it comes as the humanitarian crisis in gaza just grows by the day. we know the death toll there, but this is certainly going to complicate, katty, how the u.n. can help. it is going to -- it gives ammunition, perhaps, to those within israel who say, "look, we

can't be cutting deals right now. we need to forge forward with our offensive." >> so the u.n. response to this has been we terminated the contracts of those under investigation. very shortly after the 7th -- >> the u.n. ties -- sorry. go ahead, katty. i thought my microphone was off. go ahead. >> my bad. >> that's okay. your microphone is never off, joe. never. >> yeah. >> exactly. >> you're always on with us, all day for the full 25 hours. >> yeah. >> look, they say they canceled the contracts early on. the u.n. asked for this external investigation. the need of the people in gaza has to be weighed against the kinds of measures it says that it took immediately after october 7th to cut ties with these people. if the u.n. is not doing the work in gaza at the moment, the question is going to be, who can replace them? who can backfill? there is clearly a humanitarian

need, and nobody wants to see gazans die of starvation because they're not getting the aid there. of course, the israelis long said that anra is that cahoots or had sympathy with the palestinian militant groups, this information that dropped in the "wall street journal" will corroborate what they're saying. >> it looks that way. >> we'll be following it. >> are our mics on? >> it's okay. >> yeah. coming up, the super bowl matchup is set. the team that taylor swift made famous will face -- >> oh, my lord. >> -- the san francisco 49ers. >> going to have to many angry chiefs fans. >> the conference championships next on "morning joe."

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joseph. purdy with a lot of time. watching deep, going for brandon aiyuk. oh, he caught it off the ricochet! >> such a nightmare. the san francisco comeback after trailing the lions 17 points at halftime. 51 yard pass deflected off a defender's face mask into the hands of 49er receiver, which provided the spark the niners needed. they'd score 17 unanswered points in an eight-minute span. i can't even read this. this is heartbreaking. >> too painful. >> let's bring in pablo. pablo, too heartbreaking for us to take people through this. do it for us. >> joe, i've been thinking about you. i was in the second half of this game. >> yeah. >> the cinderella run comes to a

halt in a way that makes them cry out to a divine creator for mercy. this was not just a game they took into the half at 24-7. look, this is how it goes. the lions looked great. everybody was saying it's happening, joe. >> ugh. >> the super bowl is happening. this is what everyone in that city, that that state has been waiting for for forever, literally. what happens, instead, is you saw the ball off the face mask, caught by brandon aiyuk, the 49ers' receiver. after that is the fumble by the lions. then they, the lions, can't stop the niners, they score 27 straight. this second half was like watching someone have a panic attack for two hours. it was watching the lions be unable to stop a team that, offensively, we knew was going to outmatch them. but the way it happened, man, it was -- i feel for detroit because this is just one of those things that makes you feel

like, oh, it is never, ever, ever going to happen for us. >> jonathan lemire and i and the rest of new england, it's how we felt in 2003 after the red sox gave up a home run to aaron boone. >> that's right. >> we realized at that point, the sox would never, ever win a world series, which they did the next year. let's hope the lions do. >> there's the spin, yeah. >> also, we do need to talk about the field goal that wasn't. i have this debate with jack, not really a debate. jack agreeing with me here. you know, everybody loves to go for it on fourth down. i've heard nick saban talk about that, too. everybody loves to go for it on fourth down. he goes, i have the numbers. you do for it on fourth down, the numbers are horrible. they are horrible. they work against you in every way. but it's hard to, you know --

>> was he hoisting his own? sure. dan campbell has become the face of mathematics in america. the guy who said he'd gnaw on someone's kneecap. the most meat-headed guy -- and i say it lovingly because, again, campbell has been the face of this sweetheart cinderella run -- he's now the guy whose brain has been eaten by math, by the analytics. i don't quibble with the decision, joe. in retrospect, should they have kicked a field goal? it is easier to say now. >> pablo, pablo. >> joe -- >> you're talking to an old man here. >> i know. >> put points on the board. put points on the board. never take points off the board. i mean, you know, that's the old line approach. i don't know. has that worked through the year for every team? >> it's been the -- the odds favored him. that was not the wrong call

given the way the team has played, given what the math is actually saying. look, we can shake our fists at clouds. i would like to shake my fist at the defense that gave up 27 straight. >> and the other receivers who dropped a couple of key passes there. i mean, i'm with you, joe. you know, i get the math. i thought the end of the first half was right, kicking three to go up three scores. the niners were on an avalanche, momentum was so big. kick the field goal and tie the game. slow the game down. change the game. >> slow it down. >> that was the right play yesterday. campbell is rightly being second-guessed. >> it was an avalanche. >> yeah, the fumbles. >> the best defense of the anti-math argument is, it was 27 straight. could you at least stop them somehow? >> yes, get points. >> the gamble didn't pay off, despite it paying off until this game all season. >> you know, pablo, you bring up a great point.

everybody looks at the ball off the face mask, the fumble, the this, the that. let's just look at the defense that gave up 27 points. >> yeah. >> it's like alabama, everybody is looking at the center being a terrible center, looking at this, looking at that. no, you know what? the defense just collapsed in the second half. >> right, joe. >> it happens, you lose. >> we like in sports, and i'm guilty, we gas bags, we pick a moment, a protagonist, a character, and take the narrative through that lens, establish it, tell the story. to me, watching this game, watching this game with people who are rooting for the lions, it was the helplessness. by the way, i want to give a shout-out to brock purdy, the guy we're watching on screen. we have laughed about him, but he was mr. irrelevant, the last name in the draft. that's the nickname for the guy picked last in the nfl draft, and he was in 20222. -- 2022.

what he did in the second half, running the football, ran for 49 yards, had the niners offense, as he always does, just humming and piloted by a steadier hand than you'd assume from a guy who is that young. that's the team that's going to be in the super bowl, helmed by that brock purdy, that guy who was nobody, and now is a polarizing figure because people are wondering, well, how good is he really? is he joe montana now? just take the fact that he brought you here as the last pick in the draft and say, everybody else is gravy. that was a game covered in gravy for the 49ers. >> yeah. you know, the thing is, also, we're talking about the lions defense as if they were running against local 832 in new york. when you have brock purdy, who has been a great point guard this year, call him what you will, a great point guard, swung the ball around. >> yes. >> you have deebo who is extraordinary. george kettle. >> mccaffrey.

>> mccaffrey, who i think should be the mvp. the guy is just extraordinary. >> valid argument, yeah, yeah. >> so let's bring in claire right now, though. we're not going to let her talk yet because, you know what, pablo, if we did -- >> there she is. >> -- pablo, you'd never talk. we'll get some highlights, and then we're going to our special guest who has every reason to be thrilled. the chiefs yesterday and the jags -- i say the jags -- >> the ravens, that purple. >> the ravens. >> yeah. >> sorry, for some reason, my watch was going off. there was an alarm on it. telling you way too much. you know, the ravens, if you look through the year, you look at who they played, the amount they won by, this is the best team in the nfl. the chiefs played the -- i felt like i was watching the best team in the nfl against the

hottest team in the nfl. man, the chiefs just blew through them. >> yeah. i mean, i defer to senator mccaskill, i think. i defer to the good congresswoman. but, joe, this team, let's just establish what the kansas city chiefs are now. they have been in the super bowl four of the last five years. this is the closest thing we have to the patriots dynasty. this and andy reid and patrick mahomes and travis kelce are a team that we just need to circle them every season at the start of the year and assume they're going to be there at the end. lamar jackson, who we are watching being very sad on this television, was the mvp of the league. >> yeah. >> this was a team that could only eke out ten points. that chiefs defense held them to ten points. three points in the second half. >> yes, this is what is important to remember. you had in the ravens a team that destroyed the best teams

across the nfl. yesterday, the chiefs just looked extraordinary. senator, let's go to you. is this where the irresistible force meets the immovable object and actually cuts right through the immovable object? >> well, as i said the last couple of weeks on "morning joe," i like it when we're the underdog. we do very well when we're the underdog. i think it is really not right to talk about the chiefs in terms of andy reid, mahomes, and kelce, without saying the word spagnuolo. i remember in the super bowl how nervous we were about our secondary. young and green. they're dominant now. snead as an amazing game yesterday. he shut down. lamar jackson really got shut down by this defense. >> yes.

>> i'm tired of everybody talking about everybody else's defense and everybody else's running game. pacheco is something else. i've got to just correct mika. this is a team that predates tay-tay. you know, i'm now beginning to feel what patriots fans felt for years. you know, haters are going to hate, hate, hate. >> yeah. >> but this is really, really fun. one last thing. as a chiefs fan, i just want to express my gratitude. because it is so much fun to be a fan of this team. i think we forget to realize how spoiled we are and to thank the chiefs organization for giving us this much pleasure, concentrated, in so few years. >> you know, that's what we falcons fans -- well, actually, we never say that. pablo, you know, i want to call out another name here.

the first half of the season, the chiefs just looked lost. i mean, they were -- you know, mahomes was throwing to kelce or nobody. they just did not have the tools needed to be good. let's talk about rice. number four. talk about how -- i mean, that guy, most people, you know, are looking at kelce, looking at taylor. they're not thinking about rice. they're looking at mahomes. they're looking at the defense. you saw the second half of the season. actually, mahomes' offense opened up because he also had rice to dish it off to. >> i think if we were to inject senator mccaskill with truth serum, i would imagine that she might confess that during this regular season, she may have grown a little frustrated with her receivers, joe. >> yeah. >> it was the story of droppings. it was the story of how can we let patrick mahomes, a campaign

like this from him go to waste, because he doesn't have the talent at the receiver position who can catch the football. valdez-scantling was dropping everything during the regular season. then against the bills, he has two huge catches for 30 yards or more. in this game, he is watching to his back and catching the deep ball from mahomes. add that with travis kelce. i have these newspapers in front of me, and there is a dynamic where travis kelce is america's prom king. >> oh, boy. >> i want to establish. i get it. i get the taylor swift industrial complex. it is on the nose, cinema, romantic comedy stuff. that guy being hugged, and jonathan lemire hates when i say this -- >> you're wrong. >> -- is the greatest tight end i've ever seen. apologies to rob gronkowski, tony gonzalez. that guy had the game of his life. 11 catches, 100 plus yards,

touchdowns. he was the security blanket patrick mahomes has had every single round of these playoffs, in his whole career, and it is because he is that good that they're here, as well. >> you know, obviously -- >> now we all know about him because of taylor. >> -- pablo is a huge 1989 fan if he is going to declare kelce number one. jonathan lemire, let's be honest here. i love kelce. i did even before the whole taylor connection. remember jack got the kelce jersey a couple years ago for christmas? >> yeah. >> big kelce fans. that said, number one, i don't know. i think you have to put kelce, gronk, and tony gonzalez, top three, sort it out later. >> yeah, i think that's fine. the difference between rob gronkowski and travis kelce, and a key part of being a tight end is you can block. rob gronkowski blocked and was

one of the best on the team. travis kelce is a great wide receiver, and he lines up wide. he was marvelous yesterday, but he is not the tight end gronkowski was. also, the chiefs deserve all the credit. the ravens imploded. lamar jackson was terrible in this game. their play calling was, too. they got away from the run. they were the best rushing team in football. the chiefs struggled all year long. they got away from it too early. the chiefs won the game, but the ravens lost it, too. >> i know we have to go to the news. >> yes. >> pablo, he brings up a great point. what is it, third and one in a tough situation. it's a drop-back pass for lamar. there were five different times where they needed to do a run-pass option. by the way, if people at home are going, well, if you were so smart. come on, everybody is calling it out. you know, a run-pass option. lamar going left or right, that'll get you what you need. some of the craziest calls i did

not understand in what harbaugh was thinking yesterday. >> the one pass to the end zone, the interception. >> triple coverage. >> the funniest part about that play, in specific, was his receiver throws his hand up. he is the only person in the stadium who wants that play to happen. it was triple coverage, as john said. lamar jackson, look, this is the thing that will dog him, right? yes, he is the mvp of the league. that's a regular season award, and it is deserved. he is a real quarterback. there is no question. but when it comes to the postseason, joe, the thing about this time of year that patrick mahomes excels at, clearly, when the pressure is on, you get better. that's the play. >> yeah. >> that's the interception where everybody throws their hands in the air and say to themselves, "has he learned nothing?" sports are meant to be hard, right? sports are meant to make you want to throw your helmet into the ground. it is meant to drive you crazy, to make you cry as we're watching that fan do exactly that. but the guys who don't make that

mistake, don't listen to your receiver when he is demanding the ball in triple coverage, that's the one he wants back. that's the one the entire city of baltimore would like that. >> that is the difference. that is the difference between every other quarterback and quarterbacks like mahomes, brady, and a guy we saw in the stands last night who i consider, sorry, sorry, john, i consider the greatest of all time. >> you're wrong, too. everybody is wrong today. >> sorry, john. >> we're celebrating other teams. >> pablo torre, thank you so much. you can listen to more of pablo. >> you're wrong, too. >> through his podcast "pablo torre finds out." >> if you don't end every sentence with brady, lemire gets upset. >> he melts down. it is all right, lemire. >> he is the best. i'm being true to myself here. >> joe montana. in a moment, we're going to be joined by one of the attorneys for e. jean carroll. we'll find out what's next for her client after the $83.3

million defamation verdict against trump. first, the latest on major developments out of the middle east. president biden is facing new pressure to take action in a region -- in the region following a deadly attack on u.s. service members. three were killed and more than 30 others injured yesterday by a drone strike in jordan. it happened while they were sleeping at a support base for the u.s. military near jordan's border with syria. president biden released a statement shortly after, reading in part, quote, while we are still gathering the facts of this attack, we know it was carried out by radical iran-backed militant groups operating in syriand iraq. we will hold all those responsible to account at a time and in a manner of our choosing. >> claire mccaskill, if you're sitting on the armed services committee, what are your thoughts right now? what is america's response to these continued attacks from

iran? >> well, it has to be surgical. it has to be careful. but i want to put something out there, and i think it is really important for people to realize. this is not happening in a vacuum. people see what's going on in the united states. they see one party abandoning, trying to abandon our commitment to ukraine. they see one party deciding that it is okay, it's okay for putin to do what he is doing. they see one party that is refusing to do the things that you would expect of the united states of america on a world stage. iran sees that. republicans are making our country less secure by the way they are behaving and saying, "we don't care about the rest of the world. all we care about is within our own borders." this is what happens when you have that disagreement in congress. this is what happens. so, first of all, i implore my former colleagues on the armed services committee, they have an

"r" behind their name, get busy here. get to work. over on the house side, get to work. we need to show strength and unity right now, and this response has to be strong but it has to be very surgical because we do not want this to blow up into a whole conflict throughout the middle east. >> this is what the white house has been worried about, that inadvertently or because of a mistake or because of some kind of attack from a proxy group, america will be pulled into something even wider. as you were saying earlier, joe, it looks like this is widening already. now, the question is, what can the response be? we heard from admiral stavridis in the last hour. would one of the options be hitting american assets but not inside iran, necessarily, on sea, oil platform off the coast of iran? would that be something the u.s. would think of doing? you have to be careful. there's a moment of both peril, but i hear from people i speak to, there is also a moment of opportunity in the middle east, of some kind of realignment.

with the prospect still out of there saudi-israeli normalization, but it is fragile. disrupting the balance at the moment could lead to costs that america doesn't want to pay in the longer term. >> for sure. in a moment, we're going to get more insight on what retaliation from u.s. forces might look like from national security council spokesman john kirby. the admiral is standing by for us at the white house. >> so looking forward to talking to the admiral. the fact s this is very simple. if you continue to let iran strike at american interests, american bases, and kill or injure americans, they're going to ramp up the attacks. >> has to be a consequence. >> there needs to be a strong, strong, swift response to these attacks. need to make it untenable for iran. it is that simple. >> we'll talk to admiral kirby about that in a few moments. we want to turn now to the $83.3 million in damages a

federal jury says former president donald trump must pay writer e. jean carroll for repeatedly defaming her. the nine-person panel reached a verdict in just under three hours on friday. afterwards, judge kaplan told the jury, whose names and details were kept anonymous throughout the trial, while they are free to speak publicly, he did not advise it. joining us now, attorney for e. jean carroll, shawn crowley. she delivered an opening statement in the trial and did the rebuttal and questioned multiple witnesses. it's great to have you on the show. i guess, first of all, i'd love to hear how your client is doing. and what happens if donald trump defames her again? >> great to be here. e. jean is doing well. i think she's finally gotten a little sleep over the weekend, and she is feeling great. you know, as to what happens if he defames her again, i think it

is definitely worth pointing out that it's been four days now and he hasn't yet. that's quite remarkable given his reaction to the last -- after the last trial and in the days and weeks leading up to this trial where he was pretty much defaming her every single day. so we'll see what happens. we'll see if he can stay quiet. you know, do from there. >> certainly striking on truth social over the weekend, that trump attacked the judge and the process but never mentioned your client. more on this, first of all, what was your reaction to the size of the verdict, the $83.3 million, all told, including the punitive damages here? and trump vowed to appeal. how confident would you be in that part of the process? >> so we sort of suspected that -- well, first of all, you can never be sure of what juries are going to do. but we suspected that the punitive award might be high given what donald trump was doing during the trial, both,

you know, after trial each day, he'd go out and give a press conference or go on truth social and continue to defame e. jean, and then his behavior in the courtroom, where he'd walk out when he wasn't happy, wave his arms, shake his head. reallyust showing the jury in real time that he doesn't believe he is bound by any rules or any laws. we expected that perhaps the punitive award would be high. i don't think anyone expected it'd be quite that high. we were certainly pleased. >> shawn, are you suggesting that his performance in court may have led to higher punitive damages than he might have had if he'd stayed away from court, which, of course, he'd been allowed to do, if he hadn't have been in the courtroom? also, when do you think e. jean is going to see some of this money? >> i do think it probably increased the punitive award, to see him. i mean, usually, what happens in a trial, lawyers describe conduct and sometimes there's video and sometimes there is written evidence. but to allow the jury to see it

actually happening before their very own eyes, they don't have to just trust us in what we're telling them has happened. they actually see him living it out right before them. i do think it contributed to the punitive award. as for when she is going to see the money, his lawyers vowed to appeal. in order to do that, he has to actually post a bond or put the money in the court. that hasn't happened yet. if he does, he'll appeal within the next couple weeks, and we'll go through the process. we feel quite confident that, at the end of the day, you know, we have very, very strong argments on appeal. once we're victorious there, we will seek to enforce the judgment, and she'll get paid. >> shawn, i'm curious, are there other women out there that you've all considered representing? clearly, e. jean carroll is not the only one victimized by what he bragged about on that famous quote as he got off that bus. there are other women. are there others waiting in the wings to see how this went, and

will they step forward now and bring a lawsuit similar to this in the future? >> well, i can tell you that in the last trial, last april/may, where the jury found he had sexually assaulted e. jean, we had two other witnesses testify, natasha and jessica lee about sexual assaults he committed on him, one before and one after he assaulted e. jean carroll. for sure, there are other women out there who he has abused. you know, i think they were not our clients and they weren't seeking a judgment or any money, but i think they felt that it was important for them to be able to tell their stories to a jury, as well. >> attorney for e. jean carroll, shawn crowley, thank you very much for coming in this morning. we appreciate it. >> thank you. we want to bring in conservative attorney george conway now, and special correspondent at "vanity fair" and the post of "fast politics"

podcast, molly jong-fast. and former chief of chaff to the dccc and an aide to the biden and hillary clinton campaigns, adrienne elrod is with us. >> george conway, perhaps this is grounded more in the fact that reality is settling in. one, donald trump did not defame e. jean carroll this weekend. pretty remarkable what $83.3 million lawsuit will do. secondly, we actually heard a national republican going out, talking about the importance of juries instead of people like marco rubio trashing the jury system and attacking jurors and other senators, republican senators doing it when things don't go their way. you actually had nikki haley going, "i'm not going to second-guess the jury.

what a quaint notion that is." >> a few years too late, i think. this is what people should have been doing all along. they should have been hammering him for his misconduct. they should have been doing all this and criticizing him and challenging his mental stability. i think this case is actually not just -- this damage verdict is not just a verdict about defamation. it is a verdict about his incredibly distorted state of mind. as shawn just said, he was hit with this judgment in part because of his behavior in court and his behavior during the trial. this is a man who, as judge kaplan said during the trial, he cannot control himself. he could not control himself when he raped e. jean carroll. he couldn't control himself in 2019 when she came forward with the story and he lied and said,

"oh, i've never met her," even though there was a photograph that had been published already of them together. he could not control himself after he was president, when he continually defamed her again and again and lied about what happened. then he couldn't control himself throughout the trial when, in the middle of the night, he was attacking the judge and attacking jean carroll again, calling her a liar, calling her a whack job, and standing outside the courtroom and holding these outrageous press conferences. now, he has been good for four days. we'll see how long that lasts. i keep remembering back in 2017 and 2018 and 2019, where he'd do something or say something particularly outrageous, and people would say, "oh, my gosh," and then a few days later, he'd read something off a teleprompter, and people would say, "oh, this is the new donald trump." there is no new donald trump. >> there is no new donald trump. molly, now republicans are forced to defend someone who was found liable for $83.3 million

in the defamation lawsuit connected to a sexual assault. nikki haley, at least, is choosing not to do that as part of a more aggressive attack for her. you wrote something for msnbc.com over the weekend. "e. jean carroll, my mother, and the power of staying visible." tell us what that means and why it is significant right now. >> well, i think that donald trump ushered in an era of misogyny and racism. we know this is true, when he was elected. women, you know, of that age were really -- you know, these were the women who fought for roe. then they lost roe. because of donald trump, right? he put three conservative justices on the court. he even said he was putting them on to reverse roe. roe was the great victory of those women, my mother included's, age. in 1973, they were able for the first time to have autonomy, and it changed the

game for them. so to see this taken away from them, and then here is a woman donald trump's own age, right? donald trump hasn't been married to a woman his own age in a long time. this was a sort of incredible victory for women of that generation, for women of my generation. you know, it was that we matter. no matter what age we are, we matter. >> absolutely. adrienne elrod, i mean, actually, that's the first thing i thought was the huge judgment came down, this huge number, is that this woman is such a hero. she started this during his presidency and kept going. i don't think a lot of folks took her that seriously. i think everyone is taking her seriously now. let's talk about the politics of this, adrienne, especially with the civil suit coming down the line in the next couple of weeks. i don't know how much this hurts trump politically. i guess it could hurt his bank account, which could undermine

him a bit. how do you think the biden white house should position itself? of course, we'll watch nikki haley play off of this, as well. >> yeah, i think the biden white house has been really smart about this. you don't necessarily have to get involved in the story like this. the story speaks for itself. look, i mean, i think on a couple of fronts, i think, number one, this sets a precedent. if you are -- whether you are a woman, a man, whomever you are that donald trump is consistently defaming, there is now a precedent set forward where, you know, perhaps donald trump is going to think twice before he goes out and ridicules you on the public stage. you know, i think it is also important. i love that molly talked about, you know, how women of her mother's generation and, frankly, you know, women my age, too, this was inspiring for us to see on a number of levels. i think if you are -- i always talk about, mika, the swing moderate voters who will decide this election. you're looking at this and saying, you know what, good for

her. i'm glad she stood up and did this and took this step. i don't think the biden white house needs to get involved in this because it speaks for itself. you know, e. jean has been a hero to so many women. if you're trump and the trump campaign, maybe you are thinking twice before you go out there and start defaming, you know, innocent women out there who you either raped or you have just consistently defamed time and time again. >> george conway, quickly, just watching trump's actions in the days and weeks to come, he can't talk about -- i mean, to what extent does the definition of defamation, continued defamation include? he seems to be edging close to talking about this as an attack on him, the biden doj, when we know it was a jury. does that get him in trouble, or can he talk around it still? >> he is going to defame people.

he is going to continue to defame people because he engages in psychological projectile. joe can attest to this. he is always going to accuse people of falsehoods to draw attention away from himself and because he is just a pathological liar. that's what he does. i'm sure he is going to be back at some point talking about this judge and talk about e. jean carroll. he is going to be saying absolutely untrue things about everybody because that's what he's done his entire life. the good thing, though, about what has just happened is he is finally being called to account for it. i think what we all need to do, and i think nikki haley, you know, for some reason is finally starting to do it. i think the biden campaign, from what i can see on their social media accounts, is trying to do it. we need to call out the crazy. we need to point out the crazy. he's had three years of basically being off the stage,

and people have forgotten how absolutely, positively mentally disordered this man is. the more you talk about that, in particular, the crazier it makes him. i'm not just talking about the possibility that he has dementia. i mean, if he were a relative of mine and saying some of the things he was saying and confusing nikki haley with nancy pelosi, saying that barack obama was president, i'd drag him to the nearest neurologist. but that's not really the problem with him. what makes him dangerous is he is a narcissistic sociopath. a narcissistic psychopath. malignant narcissist. he's always been that. one of the things that happened last week is that the jury saw this man for themselves, just a few feet away, and they saw how sick and deranged he was. that's part of the reason why he has to come up with $83.3 million really fast through a bond, and i don't know if he

can. >> his lawyers see it. >> his lawyers certainly didn't help him at all, which is an understatement. but, you know, he was coming to the courtroom. i don't know if it was for the press conferences outside, if it was to intimidate the jurors, what it was, but it ended up costing him a lot. if he'd stayed away. >> and zip it. >> if he hadn't made the bad impressions he made and kept his head down, he'd probably have, you know, at least $70 million more. >> yes. >> he cost himself tens of millions of dollars going into the courtroom. >> you wonder why someone would want that to lead this country again. george conway, thank you. ahead on "morning joe," president biden is pushing congress to embrace a bipartisan senate deal on border security. we'll be joined by white house press secretary karine jean-pierre to discuss where things stands on that. first, retired rear admiral john kirby is standing by to discuss this weekend's deadly

attack on u.s. troops in jordan, and what retaliation might look like. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. ♪ (upbeat music) ♪ ( ♪♪ ) with the push of a button, constant contact's ai tools help you know what to say, even when you don't. hi! constant contact. helping the small stand tall.

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president biden says the u.s. will respond to the deadly attack at a u.s. base in jordan. he made the comment on sunday in south carolina just hours after a drone struck the base known as tower 22 near the syrian border. three service members were killed and over 30 others injured. the white house is blaming iran-backed militias for the attack. joining us now, national security council coordinator for strategic communications at the white house, retired rear admiral john kirby is with us. >> americans want to know, if the iranians continue to sponsor attacks that kill and wound americans, that cause serious problems for americans, and

undermine american interests in the region, at what point do we go after the source of the attacks, iran, and strike them where they are? >> well, i think i certainly understand americans' concern over these repeated attacks by groups that are backed by iran, joe. i'm not going to get ahead of the president or his decisions. you heard him yesterday saying we'll respond. we'll do that. obviously, we have three american families who have the worst possible news over the weekend, and now 30 more others that are injured, some seriously. we're going to take this seriously, as well. we've got to do what we have to do to protect our troops and facilities. what the options are available to the president, we're still working through that. he's still working his way through that. i don't want to close down any decision space on his behalf. that said, we certainly know iran is backing these groups. we know that they are supplying and some cases providing information that allows these

groups to do that. we don't want a wider war with iran or in the region, but we have to do what we have to do. >> you don't want a wider war. at the same time, it can also be true that a retaliation is required at this point. i mean, is there any sense of how quickly the united states will respond? >> mika, no question, there is going to be a response. you heard that from the president yesterday. we will respond. but as we've done in the past, we're going to do it in a time and manner of our choosing. we'll be careful. we'll be deliberate about this. the president will make the right decisions at the right time. we're certainly not going to telegraph punches to the iranians or the groups they're backing. >> admiral, if you would, tell us a little more about what happened yesterday. this attack, which specific iranian-backed group do we think was responsible? how did this drone reach this facility where it could endanger these american lives, killing three, but also, we should note,

wounding, some seriously, up to two, three dozen more? >> that's right. you know, this was definitely a lethal attack, no question about that. we think it was a single drone. we're still working out the details of how this drone got through and how it was able to actually target what, in essence, was a barracks building. given the hour upon which this attack occurred, you know, these troops were mostly in their beds and asleep. they were in a barracks. we're still working out the details of exactly how this happened and how it occurred. as for attribution, we're working through the intelligence on this, as well. clearly, it has all the earmarks of a group or groupshezbollah, the irg funded, supported, and resource groups that operates in iraq and syria. has the earmarks of that, but we're working through what the attribution is going to look like. >> admiral, two questions. can you give us an update on the

talks in europe around the hostage release and a potential cease-fire, and whether it looks like there is a deal that is going to be done? secondly, on friday, prime minister netanyahu gave an interview with "the wall street journal" in which he said israel had to retain security control of west bank and gaza. how helpful or unhelpful are those comments in trying to plan for a sort of long-term solution that looks more like what the biden administration wants, a two-state solution? >> on the first question, katty, the talks have been -- i think it is fair to describe them as constructive. i've said sober and serious, but i can say constructive. we don't have a deal that's on the table and imminently ready to be announced. there's a lot of good discussions going on. brett mcgerk, our coordinator for the middle east, coming back from doha. also discuss things with the qataris and egyptians and saudis. there is a framework for another

hostage deal that could make a difference in terms of getting more hostages out, getting more aid in, and actually getting the violence to come down. that would reduce, of course, civilian casualties. a lot of promise here, but, again, i want to be very, very clear, there's still diplomacy ahead, a lot of discussions to occur before we can get there. as to the comments from prime minister netanyahu, we've been very clear. i can't speak for him, but i can speak for president biden. we believe in the promise of a two-state solution, and that is going to require leadership. leadership on the israeli side. leadership on the palestinian side. to come together and work through the differences. the president still believes in that. he also believes that whatever post-conflict gaza looks like, it can't be reduced in size or territory. it's got to be the same gaza strip that we see right now. we don't support a reoccupation. we don't support a reduction in territory. what we do want is the voice and the vote and the aspirations of the palestinian people to hold

sway here, which is why we're working with abbas, so they can administer post-war gaza. it can't be and shouldn't be reoccupied. >> before you go, i want toreve ongoing, about u.n. workers having ties to the october 7th attacks. what do we know about that, and how does that hamper the u.n.'s efforts there and around the world? >> very, very troubling allegations here against about a dozen employees of the u.n. relief and works agency, otherwise known as unra. they've helped save thousands of lives since this conflictgaza, employees were involved in various ways in the october 7th attacks. i'd tell ya, people need to remember, they brought the allegations forward to us.

they told us about it. they're taking it seriously. they've called for an investigation. the secretary general of the u.n. said he'll hold anybody responsible, accountable. even through potentially criminal prosecutions. that's a good sign. they're taking this very, very seriously. they don't want this stain on their organization. we don't want this stain on the organization. now, in light of the investigation and the allegations, we've paused our funding. we'll sit tight on additional funding for unra until they work through this, then we'll make the appropriate decisions based on, not only the investigation results, but also what they do about those results. >> all right. national security council coordinator for strategic communications at the white house, retired rear admiral, john kirby. as always, thank you so much for coming on the show this morning. we appreciate it. >> yes, ma'am. coming up, why the white house is feeling more confident about the president's economic message. nbc news senior business correspondent christine romans joins us to discuss her new reporting on what's behind the

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we're starting to see real evidence that american consumers are having confidence in the economy we're building. who else is noticing that? donald trump. did you see what he recently said? he wants to see the economy crash this year. >> when there is a crash, i hope it is going to be during this next 12 months because i don't want to be herbert hoover. >> donald trump knows this economy is good and strong and getting stronger. he knows that while it is good for america, it is bad for him politically. >> president joe biden on saturday denouncing those recent

comments made by donald trump. joining us now, senior business correspondent christine romans. she has a new piece up on nbcnews.com about how confidence is growing inside the white house when it comes to president biden's economic message. christine, great to have you, by the way. >> good morning. >> i just always get so worried about being confident about an economy because so many competing factors globally. >> yeah. >> what's driving this confidence? >> well, you know, i want to be really clear, mika, no one is declaring victory here or saying the work is done. on the contrary, they're saying there's a lot more work to be done, and they're pushing their agenda that way. but you're looking more recently at some of the economic numbers that almost every inflation measure is improving. the economy in the fourth quarter of last year compared with the year before, a solid 3.1% gdp growth, in a year, mika, where there were all kinds of recession calls. remember, that never happened. i spent time in pennsylvania

this week talking to a business owner who prepared for recession and had a great year. he hired people. he could hire more people if he could find them. top line and bottom line growth. the white house knows this. inside the white house, they're growing a little more optimistic that the situation on the ground is going to catch up to their months and months of messaging. >> adrienne elrod, her last job was chips lady, heading up communications for the president's chips program. it was a long list to brag about for sure in this administration, but i guess i ask you the same thing, how should the biden administration sort of walk that fine line of bragging but still, of course, pointing out how much more needs to be done or preparing for the unexpected? >> yeah, i mean, mika, that is exactly right. the numbers are really incredible considering the fact that we were just in a pandemic several years ago, the fact that, you know, many economists

did think we'd go into a recession. because of the legislation, four major economic bills that president biden passed, 14.3 million jobs, inflation is going down, wages are going up, the numbers are looking really good going forward. but not every single american is feeling this. inflation numbers are still high. they're coming down. i'm curious, to what mika said, i mean, has the white house talked about to you how they want to say, okay, so we're giving ourselves well-deserved credit for a lot of the strong numbers, but how do we make it clear that there's still work to do? what is the work they're talking about? >> they want to lower costs. you've heard about junk and overdraft fees, and they're trying to lower costs for americans. there will be more of that in the weeks ahead. you're absolutely right about the price pressure problem. it is interesting. i was talking to jared bernstein who was saying, we don't talk

about inflation. i talk about prices, the price of eggs. that is why so many people don't feel the recovery, because their grocery bill is higher today than three years ago. even though gas prices are down, the grocery bill has been a real, real problem, and it'll take time and more progress on inflation for a big swath of america to really believe the economy is getting better. >> molly, to christine's point, prices still high, even as inflation has cooled. we see consumer sentiment numbers really go up. it is certainly adding to the confidence the biden administration has that the economy will continue to do well next year. this year, as the president vies for re-election. one thing the democrats flagged to me as a concern, all this is good news, but they worry that voters, even voters who start feeling better about the economy, won't give joe biden credit for it. that's a different step. will they be able to make the connection and say, hey, this white house has done a good job? they worry that they look back fondly at the trump economy, even though, of course, we know

that trump dramatically inflates how successful it actually was. >> i mean, i think that is democratic hand wringing. >> they're prone to do that. >> right. the biggest indicator the economy is good is republicans are laser focused on the border. you're not hearing them talk any more about inflation. you're not hearing them complain about gas prices. i think, you know, you can look to them. they are seeing the border is really all they have left to run on. i think that that bodes well for democrats on the economy. >> all right. nbc news senior business correspondent christine romans, it's great to have you on. thank you so much for being on this morning. adrienne elrod and molly jong-fast, thank you, both, for being on this morning. ahead, we'll take a look at some of the stories making front page headlines across the country, including a key piece of the supply chain working to address a labor shortage.

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scholarships and aid from students who promote, quote, foreign terrorist organizations. opponents say the legislation targets pro-palestinian activists and violates the first amendment. those in favor say hate speech isn't protected and that protest

demonstrations threaten student safety on campus. in louisiana, the "advocate" is highlighting local efforts to address the growing driver shortage in the trucking industry. according to the american journal of transportation, the nation is currently short about 80,000 drivers and that number is expected to double by 2030. institutions such as baton rouge community college are launching commercial driver's license programs aimed at getting new drivers on the road. "the kansas city star" reports several missouri lawmakers are asking the u.s. postal service to stop their rate hikes until service improves. a federal audit found more than 64 million pieces of delayed mail in kansas city between october 2022 and march of 2023. last week, the usps hiked prices for the fourth time in the last 18 months. and in california, "the

sacramento bee" reports that a highly contagious bird flu is wreaking havoc across the state. experts say the avian flu is spreading to chickens, ducks, geese, and other migratory birds through droppings and nasal discharges. officials in sonoma county have declared a state of emergency, where in the past two months, nearly a dozen commercial farms have had to slaughter more than a million birds in order to try and control the outbreak. and still ahead on "morning joe," president biden is promising retaliation for a deadly drone strike on u.s. service members in the middle east. retired four-star navy admiral james stavridis will join us with some insight on how u.s. forces might respond. plus, we'll go through what's next for e jean carroll and former president donald trump after a jury ruled he must pay her $83.3 million in

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trump did have a slight stumble this week while talking about banks and he introduced an interesting new term called d-bank. >> we're also going to play strong protections to stop banks and regulators to try to debank you. they want to debank you and we're going to debank. >> i don't know what the hell de-bank means, but he might have to take deambulance, to see dedoctor. >> good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it is monday, january 29th and we have a lot to get to this morning, including the massive payout donald trump now owes e jean carroll. >> talk about being debanked. >> after a jury awarded the

writer $83 million in defamation damages. we'll get expert legal analysis on that, as well as the looming case that could further impact donald trump's bank account. >> well, you know, that's the big one, really. >> you look at the fraud case, he's already found guilty. this is all just damages stage. >> and i don't think he helped himself in this defamation case, although you haven't heard from him for the first time, has he defamed e jean carroll this came down on friday? i don't think he has. >> i haven't heard it yet. >> maybe came close on stage. >> what the jury tried to do, but -- >> we shall see. meanwhile on capitol hill, a bipartisan group of senators appeared to be close to a deal for border security and foreign aid, but the package still faces threats from lawmakers who are loyal to trump. plus, heartbreak for the motor city. the detroit lions, who have never made it to the super bowl, were stunned in the second half last night, losing to the san

francisco 49ers, despite a 17-point lead at halftime. >> yeah, jonathan lemire, hard break for the motor city, but what an extraordinary story. can't believe they got as far as they did. nobody got as far as they did. and that's a game they can get through the off-season going, we should have won. we need to do a better job last year. >> certainly a team on the rise, that's what lions fans are telling themselves this morning. they should be back in this situation. but we can't overstate how devastating this was. they're only the fourth playoff team ever to blow a 17-point lead at halftime and lose the game. they could do no wrong in the first half and in the second half, a costly fumble, some terrible drops from wide receivers, some pretty suspect coaching decisions, too, turned down, seemingly pretty makeable field goals to go for it on fourth down. i know they're an aggressive team, but you needed points, you needed to slow the 49ers

momentum, and there was that amazing catch, lucky break that the 49ers got the ball. credit to the niners, they played strong, they came back, and now it's going to be mika, and you saw the chiefs. the chiefs weren't playing around. now you've got the niners and the chiefs playing in super bowl. also with us this morning, bbc news katty kay. and we begin this morning with the deaths of three u.s. service members in northeast jordan, it happened yesterday at a logistics support base for the base near, packed with explosives, struck near a shelter where american troops were sleeping. killing three and injuring more than 30. president biden released a statement shortly after reading in part, quote, while we are still gathering the facts of

this attack, we know it was carried out by radical iran-backed militant groups, operating in syria and iraq. we will hold all of those responsible to account, at a time and in a manner of our choosing. >> with us former supreme allied commander of nato, retired four-star navy admiral, james stavridis. he's chief international analyst for nbc news, admiral, thank you so much for being with us, last week. you brought up a very simple metaphor about a guy who sends people from the house across the street, coming over, and constantly, you know, stealing things from your house or breaking windows in your house, and we said, well, what do you do, you go take out the house across the street. tell them you're going to call the cops or something. in this case, i just, i wonder how much longer is the united states going to allow its troops to be shot at by people who are being funded by iran.

at what point do we not just go to the source of the problem, which has been the source of the problem since 1979 and go to iran. if iran -- if iran wants to continue killing americans or wants to kill americans, should we not at least sink one of their ships, should we not at least blow up their airfields or oil fields. pick one, i don't care. >> when this ocurd, after the blow to my heart of learning that we lost three of our best and 25 to 30 wounded, 10 evacuated, meaning they're at risk of life-threatening wounds, this is attack number 160 or so. so joe, i'm is always one that's, let's try the diplomacy, let's try the incremental steps here. i think we are at the point where what is necessary is a

hammer blow against the proxies. i'll expand on that in one moment. if that doesn't have the intended effect, yes, it's time to go after iran. so i think what the pentagon is doing, i don't think -- i know what the pentagon is doing is building options for the president that will include increasing the intelligence collection, using cyber to go after both the proxies, probably, iran, cia stepping up its game, inside iran. iran's using their proxies, maybe we could use a few proxies operating against the moolas, against the revolutionary guard. and the military strike packages speak for themselves. i think you'll see the president order another aircraft carrier, combat aircraft back to the region to prepare, in case we have to go after iran directly.

i would go after the ship at sea scenario, we've done that before, it's a very effective way and a very direct demonstration of american power. >> well, they're certainly going after our ships. what is the -- what is the logic of the iranians. do they really -- do they really want to fight a war with the united states? do they really want to go up against our military might? that will be over in a couple of weeks. what is the logic. >> their logic is three-fold. one is to demonstrate globally, demonstrate to their partners, they're very close with the iranians, they want to impress the chinese, they want to show that they can maneuver through this vast land battle space of the middle east, the old persian empire. number two, they want to take advantage of the fact that israel is completely occupied with what's happening in gaza. normally, israel can be part of

these kind of responses. they are very tied down. that looks to iran like an opportunity and number three, all politics are local. the iranians are trying to distract their internal population from growing resistance within the country of iran. much of it led, by the way, by women and girls. this becomes something going outside to slay monsters like the united states, that the moolas feel can distract that internal population. but bottom line, joe, no, they don't want an all-out fight with the united states. i don't think it will end up there. next step, we're going to have to have a campaign of days, if not weeks to really denude these proxies. we need in our back pocket the strike plan for iran. >> okay. let's bring in nbc news national security and military correspondent, courtney kube. courtney, what are you hearing from military leaders?

>> so this was a one-way attack drone. it landed at a place called tower 22, which a lot of our viewers have never heard of and a lot of people in the military just don't talk about it. it's a small outpost in northeastern jordan. it's just on the other side of syria. and it functions as a base where they train and advise the jordanian military, but it's also really a logistical hub or support facility for the u.s. military garrison that's just on the other side in syria. there's a small number of u.s. troops there. it's about 350, mainly soldiers and airmen, who are performing this function. this one-way attack drone got through the air defenses of this base, and was able to land and explode right near a shelter where troops were sleeping. that's why we saw such a high casualty number here. three killed -- u.s. soldiers killed. and now we're up to about three dozen injured. and mika, that's everything from minor cuts and bruises, there are a number of traumatic brain

injuries, we expect that number could rise. but there were also a number of u.s. service members who were injured badly enough in this attack that they had to be medevaced out. secretary of defense lloyd austin returns to the pentagon after being gone for his emergency hospitalization with the complications surrounding his prostate cancer surgery. he's supposed to be back in the building today and we expect to hear from him, where we hope that we will hear a little bit more about this today. but this is the first time, as we've been saying, that u.s. troops have been killed by one of these iranian proxy groups, since this uptick in attacks back in mid-october by these groups. we've seen more than 160 attacks against bases in iraq and syria. many of them drones like the one that we saw at tower 22, but there have also been pretty advanced ballistic missiles, there have been rockets, mortars that have been launched. this is not the first time we've had americans wounded in these

attacks. we have had dozens, frankly, who have been wounded, mainly, traumatic brain injuries, but this is the first time that any have been killed. we're expecting to hear more from the pentagon about it today. but a pretty tragic event, and the real question now is, does this become -- have a real impact on the potential escalation for what's already an extremely tense situation in the middle east, mika. >> that is the question. nbc news national security and military correspondent, courtney kube. thank you very much for your reporting this morning. >> so jonathan lemire, this seems pretty simple to most americans. if the iranians are funding one group after another after another, they keep injuring or killing u.s. service men and women, most americans would say, you know, you can keep shooting at the three or four different groups that the iranians are funding or you can go straight to the source. is the white house considering going straight to the source?

>> so this is the day the white house has dreaded, since october 7th. and since the escalation of violence in the middle east. they don't want a widening war. they didn't want to be brought to this moment. >> well, they have one. they have one, because, you know, the thing is, the iranians keep killing americans, the iranians keep wounding americans, the iranians keep trying to get other people to kill americans. the war has arrived. the regional war is here. and if we don't take it to iran, americans are going to keep getting killed. >> so let me -- >> but let me ask you, discuss the white house understand that? >> let me bring you in white house thinking. the white house has been very selective, deliberating how they responded. largely attacks that were not successful, that american military was able to intercept and knock down, the white house largely ignored.

we have seen a number of strikes in the recent weeks in in the u.s. but this is different now. american troops are dead. and i'm told white house advisers in a secure video conference with president biden who spent the weekend in south carolina campaigning, they're mulling over their options. no decision yet made, but one of the options is striking within iran itself. unclear what the target would be, these are things that we worked out in the days ahead, as president biden himself said, in the manner and time of their choosing. and that's been the biden approach throughout his presidency. is that they make the choice, they're not going to be rushed into it. they're going to consider what to do. but there's no doubt, joe, no doubt, a line was crossed yesterday. these are americans troops who were killed. and therefore, it's going to require a different sort of response. so katty, let's talk about what they could do and what the ramification might be. because, a, they could, yes, hit these militant groups even harder to try to permanently cripple them, as best they can. they could go within iran itself, but that latter choice, which a lot of republicans are

really pushing for this administration to do, could further enflame the situation, widen the war, that just war. what's the latest that you're hearing? >> so the reason that we've got those two aircraft carriers there in the mediterranean is to try to prevent the widening of this war. and when it comes to hezbollah, there seems to be a certain amount of success. it seems to have acted as a deterrent. you have the americans striking down in yemen against the houthis and so far, whilst the houthis have carried on wielding their attacks, they haven't been as deadly as this one. now you have this drone attack, as you say, the implication is that there has to be some kind of different level of response. but you calibrate that against striking inside iran and what that would lead to. so what are the ramifications of that? and admiral, let me bring you in here, you're the military man. if we were to take that option out of your back pocket, and the white house were to put it on the table, obviously, whenever you strike inside a country that has an advanced weapons system

of its own, and we've seen the precision with some surprise, if iranian missile attacks against pakistan, recently, perhaps surprising our sobsers that didn't realize quite how precise some of the iranian weapons seasons were and effective iranian weapons systems were, what are the implications for the white house? what are they weighing here? because it's a big move to go and strike inside iran. what are the possible ramifications of that. >> it is. they'll start by not striking inside iran on land, but i believe firmly, they'll go after maritime assets. that's extremely proportional to the houthi attacks. that's why ships at sea become pretty attractive targets. next-level closer to iran, katty, would be oil and gas platforms. which the iranians use as intelligence gathering sites. these are all over the arabian gulf. all over the coast of the north arabian sea. those are pretty attractive targets, as well. number three, i would probably

go after coastal targets. again, keeping with that maritime theme, take out dock yards, fuel stocks, command and control networks, all of this accompanied by cyber, which you would go inside iran, but with cyber. your last resort, but highly controversial and potentially really dragging you into war would be to do cruise missile strikes. i really don't think that you would manned aircraft over iran. you don't need to. cruise missile strikes to go after, for example, armament. where the iranians are building drone systems and building all the ballistic missiles they're building to take to these individuals. to use joe's analogy one more time, if that difficult neighbor shows up with a baseball bat or a gun, you go after the factory where the gun is made, where the baseball bat is made.

i think that's your inside iran target. you could put together the whole package. we certainly have the capability to do that. i think that detailed plan is in development and i can assure you that there are already rough drafts flying around. coming up, a live interview with white house press secretary karine jean-pierre. we'll talk about the middle east, the southern border, and much more, when "morning joe" comes right back. much more, whe comes right back

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and what is unique about this case is that the jury has now ruled. they have found him liable of sexual abuse. do you not trust the jury and their findings, ambassador? >> i absolutely trust the jury and i think that they made their decision based on the evidence.

i just don't think that should take him off the ballot. i think the american people will take him off the ballot. i think that's the best way to go forward, is not let him play the victim, let him play the loser. that's what we want him to do at the end of the day. >> it's interesting, she talked about him being the loser, she was also tough talking about how he was in mental decline. >> yes, sharpening her attacks, for sure. nikki haley on "meet the press," reacting to the $83.3 million in damages a federal jury says former president donald trump must pa writer e. jean carroll for repeatedly defaming her. the nine-person jury reached a verdict in just under three hours on friday. afterwards, judge louis kaplan told a jury, whose names and details were kept anonymous throughout the trial, that while they are now free to speak publicly, he did not advise it. the decision came after a day of contentious closing arguments that included trump storming out of the courtroom at one point.

he returned for his attorney's closing arguments, but left the courthouse before the verdict was read. the jury awarded carroll just over $7 million in compensatory damages, another $11 million for damages to her reputation, followed by a whopping $65 million in punitive damages. after the verdict, trump called the decision ridiculous and vowed to appeal. carroll's attorney said afterwards that the verdict, quote, proves that the law applies to everyone in our country. last year, a jury found that trump sexually abused and defamed carroll. this trial was to determine the amount of damages carroll would receive. >> what did you think? >> well, i -- i was -- well, it's good to see an actual consequence playing out with donald trump. i think a lot of people have questions as to how long he could drag out an appeal, not to have to pay the money. and then, of course, we're looking ahead to the weeks to

come for the civil fraud trial against him that could cost him a lot of money. this could undermine the former president in ways that perhaps on the political side of things people didn't expect. >> you do get the sense with this, especially over the week -- the relative silence regarding e. jean carroll, trump to her, you do get the sense that the jury's goal was to put a punitive damages number that would stop the egregious behavior, stop the defamation. and they may have succeeded in that and they may have succeeded in that, because so many people have said, he's eventually going to have to pay this. and he's going to have to pay a lot up-front, just to post the bond. >> i just don't know why he didn't know this before. it's -- anyhow. >> isn't it interesting, though, again, we talked -- we talk about how, over the past several years, it was almost like the laws of gravity were suspended, and people could say whatever they wanted -- as it pertained

to speech, and you see the info war guys bankrupted by lying about the sandy hook parents, because when he did that, you were like, people can do that in america? people -- but they can't do that in america. when rudy giuliani lied about two black women who were trying to help georgia and be public servants, he lied about them. just made up a lie about them. and you sat there and you go, wait a second, can you do that in america. i didn't think you could do that. ended up, you couldn't. he's going bankrupt now. and you have the same thing with donald trump. i mean, donald trump -- >> and fox news, because of former hosts on fox news. and then donald trump thinking, well, i can -- i can defame a woman, i can keep defaming a woman, i can be found guilty of sexually abusing her, i can still lie about her, i can still defame her, i can still say

terrible things about her, because i'm donald trump. and the jury finally, finally came in and said, yeah, you're donald trump and you're going to owe e. jean carroll $83 million. so we see one -- you know, one idiot at a time -- i've just got to say it, one idiot at a time, do they not know that there are defamation laws in the united states of america. one idiot at a time, whether you're talking to the infowars guy or rudy giuliani or now donald trump, you know? they screwed around and they found out what happens when you defame people over and over again. >> but the thing is, he was found liable for defamation. what we were waiting for was the outcome of how much he had to pay. and he kept doing it, making the cost higher and higher. so let's find out how it works, though, moving forward. joining us now, former litigator and msnbc legal analyst, lisa

rubin. and founder of the conservator website, the bulwark, charlie sykes. >> lisa, let me ask you the question mika has been asking me -- >> well, everyone has different answers. >> all weekend. all weekend. you're a lawyer, you should know. you're a lawyer, you should know. mika wants to know, first of all, how much money will donald trump have to pay to post bond and do his appeal, number one. but number two, she wants to know, like a lot of people, when e. jean carroll is actually going to get her money. so, mika, i pass it to lisa. >> and lisa, if you say, oh, it could take years, dot, dot, dot, that's not specific enough. >> so what's the word, lisa? >> let me give you the satisfying part first. someone is going to have to post a bond in 100% plus of the verdict here. the bigger question is who that is. many defendants in situations like this will find a company

that will post a surety for them. and then you pay, as donald trump did in the fulton county case, you pay a percentage of that verdict to the person who posts the bond. in new york, the last time e. jean carroll won against donald trump, he wasn't able to secure that and he ended up putting $5.6 million in an escrow account directly with the court. so it will be interesting to see if any surety is willing to put themselves out there for donald trump in exchange for 10 to 20% plus collateral. my guess is he will be harder pressed to find that person in new york than he was, for example, in georgia, when he faced that fulton county indictment. with respect to how long it's going to help, mika, here's the unsatisfying part of our answer, i don't know. donald trump certainly will take an appeal here. he is also appealing the underlying verdict from last may that found him liable for defamation and sexual assault in the first instance. but here's the good news or the silver lining.

you can't campaign a defamation verdict away. it's a civil liability, not a criminal one. and being president doesn't afford you any special rights to wipe the slate clean, as donald trump would like to do, with respect to this case or the new york attorney general's case, where we're waiting for judge arthur n. goran to deliver an opinion, and where the new york attorney general has asked for $370 million in discouragement, in addition to a number of other really tough penalties, mika. >> just really quickly, can a family member put up the money? certainly, he has family members who have received a lot of money from different places. and on the other -- on the civil trial, what's the timeline on a result? >> let's start with the family member. can a family member puppet money? i suppose a family member could put up that money. however, with respect to his two adult sons who are also defendants in that new york attorney general's case, there

is already a preliminary injunction in place in that case, and a monitor, former federal judge barbara jones. and the existing pieces of that preliminary injunction prevent the trumps from transferring large sums of money back and forth between themselves, without advance notice to the monitor and to judge goran. so yes, it's technically possible, but it's not as if they can move $83.3 million out of the trump organization or out of one of their personal bank accounts without having to notify authorities as it is. in terms of the timing for judge ann goran, judge ann goran made a promise to the parties that he would try to render a decision by january 31st, but there's nothing saying he has to do that. indeed, he got a letter late last week from judge jones, where over 12 pages, she details ways in which the trump organization's financial reporting is still fundamentally flawed and places where she didn't get documentation of financial transactions where she

would have expected to find it. chief among those, she said that a $48 million loan that donald trump made to his own companies in respect to the trump chicago property, she couldn't find any documentation of that. and in essence, that loan, which donald trump has been talking about for years, apparently doesn't exist. so stay tuned, mika. >> wow. what a surprise. charily sykes, i have to say, with the backdrop of this trial and all the details and the judge having to explain the type of sexual assault donald trump committed, here we have, we just passed iowa where the majority of evangelicals that went out in sub-zero temperatures to vote for their christ-like figure in their eyes is a guy that paid

illegal hush money payments to a porn star, did so to a playboy money. had "access hollywood" video where he talking about sexually abusing women, they let you it. we have this judge and jury verdict. we have the judge saying what donald trump did is rape. and now we have an $83 million defamation pay out, and i don't think donald trump will be able to afford -- he certainly won't be able to afford the fraud payments. this is who our evangelical brothers and sisters in our former party, this is who they're supporting. >> well, happy monday to you, too. yeah, this is a decision that they made a few years ago. and they're all in. this all adds up, doesn't it? it all adds up. there's a cumulative weight of this. you can measure it. you were walking through all of the defamation sm settlements a everything, the price of lies. you add up all of the package

that donald trump is bringing into this campaign. it is one of the those extraordinary moments in american political history, but also, the amount of damage that this man has done to the american culture, just leaving aside the politics, what it has done to the evangelical church, what it has done to our sense of what is acceptable and what is not acceptable, we're talking about a case here, an $83 million case about defamation, but fundamentally at the bottom, it is about the fact that the former president of the united states raped a woman, and despite that is the leading candidate for the presidential nomination this year. so, you know, strap in. this is what 2024 is going to be like for the rest of us. but as nikki haley is pointing out to republicans, and republicans, are you paying attention to what you are about to buy into? look, nikki haley has said that she's going to endorse donald trump, even if he's criminally convicted, that she would pardon

him, but she's clearly not campaigning for vice president anymore, because she is trying to say before you buy in, at least let's note the character, the ability of the man that you are about to put on the presidential ticket again. >> yeah, it's pretty clear that hailey has realized that she has no future in a trump republican party, so why not? if she's going to go down, go down swinging. but lisa, let's back to the legal aspects of this for a moment. we got the defamation verdict on friday. we could get the civil fraud verdict any day now. there's another thing that's bloonling, people are waiting for. that's the federal appeals court in washington about ruling on trump's claim to have total immunity, presidential immunity. there were expectations that we were going to get that decision a couple of weeks ago. it still hasn't happened. what's your sense of the delay and when and what might we see? >> i think we're going to see a decision that in some, way, shape, or form says that trump is not immune from prosecution in that federal election

interference case. how broad or narrow that ruling is is likely what's taking some time here. these are three judges who also know that their decision is going to be reviewed by the supreme court, in all likelihood. so they are trying to make that decision as bulletproof as possible. but the biggest holdup, john, is getting all three of them to agree exactly on the rationale for denying him immunity. because, a decision of three judges that is unsigned by any one of them, what we call a prekurm decision would have much more public force, than a decision where two judges give an opinion and another judge concurs, but maybe on slightly different reasoning, they want a unified front here and they are going to try to get it as best they can. that's my own prediction of what's happening. of course, i have no insight into that. coming up, is the governor of texas daring the president to call his bluff at the border? greg abbott is effectively ignoring the supreme court and challenging the white house to respond.

the latest on that standoff straight ahead on "morning joe." straight ahead on "morning joe."

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now to the bipartisan group of senators continuing to inch closer to a deal on border security and foreign aid, after months of negotiations, but house republican leadership and former president trump continue to try and thwart the legislation. speaker mike johnson issued a statement criticizing president biden's support of the bill, saying that the president already has the power to act without this proposed legislation. >> that is his new excuse to stab ukraine in the back and let fentanyl flood across the border. >> take a listen to what senator james langford, the lead republican negotiator had to say about the package by what president trump said on the campaign trail. >> this bill focuses on getting us to zero illegal crossings a

day. there's no amnesty, it increases the number of border patrol agents, it increases asylum officers, it increases detention beds, so we can quickly detain and then deport individuals. it ends catch and release. it focuses on additional deportation flights out. it changes our asylum process so people get a fast asylum screening at a higher standard and then get returned back to their home country. >> in the house, as you know, the speaker, who's, by the way, i think he's going to prove to be a very good speaker. it's tough when you have a very small majority. very tough. mike johnson, speaker. he just said, it's dead on arrival in the house. it's dead on arrival. we want either a strong bill or no bill and whatever happens happens, but this is the single greatest threat to our country right now. >> well, it's -- jonathan lemire, that's what republicans have been saying. the border crossings, and yet donald trump is saying, keep the

border open. keep it open for another year. don't do any deal. and there you heard james langford go down, item after item after item after item, approving this is the toughest border security deal ever. and yet trump, is opposing the conservative deal. just like he opens the economy crashes, as he said, because he wants there to be a depression before he's president. >> it is some of the most nakedly cynical politics we've ever seen. that donald trump is actively rooting against the country. rooting against the country for his own political benefit, whether it be about the economy and certainly here at the border. and as you know, senator langford is about as conservative as they come. and we heard him and other republicans in recent days all say the same thing from the senate. lindsey graham, john thune, others say, this is a really tough deal. we're not going to get a better deal, even if we win back the majorities and the white house next year. so we should take this deal, but at least for now, much of the

house and some of the senate seem cowed by donald trump. and let's bring in congressional investigations reporter for "the washington post," jackie alemany to give us an update on negotiations. but jackie, you're so plugged in, what i heard over the weekend, there's a lot of pessimism right now that we might see the draft text, we might see the senate bill in coming days, but there's real concerns that it won't get through the upper chamber, necessarily, and forget about the house. >> that's exactly right, john. we're going to see this text that lawmakers in the senate chamber have been working on for months now, along with department of homeland secretary, alejandro mayorkas, but there might not be a vote that will materialize due to concerns over taking a tough vote that's ultimately set up for failure in the house. i mean, i talked to one house republican who's involved with these conversations between trumpland, the trump campaign, and house republicans who said that if it were up to trump in several months, the government would be shut down, and no border deal would be done, and that trump's catchphrase would

be joe biden opened the government shutdown, the border, and he repeated over and over and over again. what you're seeing is raw politics at play here. trump not wanting this border to go through. and republicans worried that it's going to ultimately cause them their seat in electoral demise if they go against the de facto nominee of the republican party, who is so vehemently campaigning against this deal right now. democrats, of course, see a bit of an opening here. while it's very politically tenuous for them and tricky for some of those -- for more liberal republicans, democrats, people who represent border states to support some of these, as you noted, very tough provisions, they also realize that it's going to be hard for republicans to campaign against the message that republicans are against catch and release, shutting down the border, if there's over 5,000 illegal migrations a day, that it's more

difficult to get asylum. there's increased detention facilities. these are all things that democrats envision could be excellent campaign talking points, against republicans, if this deal ultimately fails, which right now, if you're listening to house speaker johnson, it seems what it's destined for. >> what i don't get about speaker johnson, joe, is you give the list, we all do the list, nikki haley even does the list now of all the losses donald trump has brought to the republican party. >> yeah. >> loss after loss after loss. do we now need to make a long list of losers who have basically bended to trump's every whim only to find that he'll turn around and kick you in the face later if he feels like it. like, what is he -- what is he think he's getting out of this? >> i don't get it. he ends up throwing everybody overboard. by the way, here's nikki haley

on the deal. >> my message to republicans is do not leave d.c. until you finish the job. and donald trump, the last thing he needs to do is tell them to wait to pass a border deal until the election. we can't wait one more day. but they do need to get this right. >> so nikki haley is telling the truth there, charlie. they need to pass the deal that langford and the other skrves like john thune called the toughest border security bill ever. but, nikki haley over the weekend also talked about trump being in decline, we've seen his mental decline, she's talked about the verdict, a lot of things. finally, we have a republican candidate that's actually talking about the person they're running against. >> we do, and i'm mildly surprised that nikki haley has chosen that lane, since she's chosen so many others in the past, but to your point, and what jonathan lemire described as the naked cynicism of the

border politics, is really extraordinary. and i'm so glad that you played senator langford's sound bite. it is a conservative republican dream, this bill gives them one of the biggest wins they've ever had. and they're about to tank their own agenda. and you know, listen to what they are saying. they are saying that the border is an existential crisis that has to be dealt with right now. and what are they doing? they're basically saying, we're going to do absolutely nothing, because donald trump is telling us to do nothing. we're going to abandon ukraine. we are going to do -- we're going to leave the border open. at the moment of -- at the moment of international crisis, we are going to turn our backs on any possibility of bipartisan compromise. it is really an extraordinary moment, just in terms of the raw cynicism. and again, the bill is a win for republicans by -- you know, in their own terms. you listen to senator langford

running down that list. >> sorry, mika. >> go ahead -- i was just going to -- i was hearing bubbles of optimism from democrats, particularly around the prospects of win back the house. if they can campaign better in new york, campaign better in california, they can mitigate some of those losses that they suffered in 2022. what are you hearing from republicans on the house about the kind of impact that not passing a bill like this could have on them in december, in terms of managing to keep hold of the house. >> yeah, katty. well, the house was pretty quiet last week as they were on recess, we'll be getting more incoming on that, this week especially after trump's, you know, trouncing of nikki haley in iowa, and his victory in new hampshire. where he is becoming a bigger and bigger voice that republicans can't really ignore and are starting to be -- or will expect to be punished by

trump if they start to speak out against him and go against some of the things that he's advocating for. but there are the same concerns that we saw in 2022, after the disappointmenting run everyone had expected, speaker johnson has essentially a two-vote majority, where it's nearly impossible to get anything through, especially if trump touches it, and advises members not to vote for it. so i think that, you know, republicans understand that they're headed for another potential electoral bloodbath, but it's -- it's this inevitable thing that they've sort of come to accept, as long as trump is the leader of the party. and that's why you're seeing retirements, people just sort of taking a bow and these nods of resignation. i mean, we went through a

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welcome to the fourth hour of "morning joe." it is 6 a.m. on the west coast and 9 a.m. on the east coast. we begin this hour with the latest out of the middle east, where three u.s. soldiers were killed and more than 30 others injured by a drone strike in jordan over the weekend. keir simmons starts us off live from that nation's capital with more. keir. >> reporter: mika, in many

respects, it could be argued that there may not be a more dangerous place in jordan for an escalation to take place with its large palestinian population already furious about what's happened in gaza. really the spotlight at this stage is on relations or the tension between the u.s. and iran. national security council spokesman john kirby is saying this morning, again, that the u.s. does not want a war with iran, while iran apparently attempting to distance itself from this attack is saying that it does not control its proxies, it does not send orders to its proxies. but it is an iranian-backed group that is being blamed for the death of three americans here in jordan, and that does in many ways look like the kind of escalation between the u.s. and iran that has been long feared. this morning, the biden

administration vowing to take all necessary action after an unmanned drone strike sent, it said, by iran-backed militant groups. three u.s. soldiers were killed, the first american military fatalities from hostile fire since war broke out between israel and hamas on october 7th, another major escalation in a region already in turmoil. u.s. central command said more than 30 were wounded in the attack in northeast jordan at a remote base on the border with syria and iraq called tower 22. eight personnel, sentcom said, were evacuated to higher level care. president biden leading a moment of silence and promising an american response. >> we had a tough day last night in the middle east. we lost three brave souls in an attack on one of our bases. and we shall respond. >> reporter: the base that can

be seen by satellite is tasked with fighting the remnants of isis. two u.s. officials told nbc news a drone packed with explosives that struck american troops as they slept is the latest and deadliest attack on u.s. forces facing conflicts with iran-backed groups on multiple fronts. one, called the islamic resistance in iraq, saying it targeted three u.s. bases in the region on sunday, partly revenge, it said, for israel's military campaign in gaza. with america already locked in an escalating confrontation with the houthis in yemen over the group's attacks on shipping, now republicans demanding a more forceful response from the u.s. senator lindsey graham writing, i am calling on the biden administration to strike targets of significance inside iran. hit iran now. hit them hard. in a region already rocked by

events in israel and gaza, u.s. funding for major agencies after israel said of its staff participated in hamas terror attacks in israel on october 7th. the u.s. saying it has fired nine staffers as the investigation continues. it is going to take an extraordinary amount of political diplomacy for the u.s. to navigate through this. the pentagon says there have been 160 strikes on u.s. installations in iraq and syria since october. of course, the biden administration has been trying to negotiate a ceasefire in gaza while warning iran not to escalate. meanwhile, u.s. allies in this region from egypt to bahran

saying this is a terror attack. >> i'm curious, in light of what happened on october 7th, and now many days after a hundred is the number that these hostages are still being held. is there any hope, especially with director burns over there, to get these hostages rescued? >> reporter: there is hope. i think it continues to be a slim hope, some hope, a fraction of hope. we did see that meeting in paris over the weekend with director burns, the prime minister of qatar, the intelligence chief of egypt and the head of mossad meeting there and discussing what is being talked about, which is, some kind of a phased

plan where hostages are released through those phases. that's what nbc news has been reporting, what we understand to be the general idea, if you like. it does look as if hamas over the weekend was signaling a little bit more flexibility, saying it won't demand a full and immediate ceasefire, a guarantee of that from israel at the beginning of that process, though it would have that as its goal. we know that israel has been deeply reluctant, frankly not prepared, to guarantee a ceasefire like that. it continues to see that the israel government has substantial more aims inside gaza. the prospect that some hostages could be released because of this diplomacy is there, but the israeli hope to get all of those hostages out, and frankly, the hamas hope to release all of their prisoners.

that's one thing some hamas leaders and officials talk about. on both sides, those are difficult goals at this stage given what's happening on the ground. >> keir simmons, thank you very much for that update. let's bring in clint watts. clint, as keir mentioned, show us with the maps what the deadly drone attack against the u.s. could mean for a wider regional conflict, which seemingly no one wants but seems to be inevitable at this point. >> it's been the big question for the last hundred days, is could this build into a wider regional conflict? the answer is yes, it's already happened. this is roughly where tower 22 is right there on the corner of the jordanian, iraqi and syrian

border. there have been these militia group strikes all the way up along the syrian border, where u.s. troops are still present even after many years fighting isis. we oftentimes forget about that. the islamic resistance of iraq, which is an amalgamation of these shia groups directed by the iranian revolutionary guard. these are places during the global war on terror where u.s. troops are based. there are still several thousand americans that are there. just last week over the last two weeks we've seen iran do a strike in pakistan. over the last three to four weeks, all of these air strikes in yemen going after targets in the red sea.

two navy seals were lost at sea during the mission there. everybody is wanting to know is iran behind all these different groups? the answer is yes. then what if hezbollah, which is right here, what's known as the shia crescent, that uniting group to attack against u.s. targets, what will president biden and the administration do in the response to the first u.s. deaths, really seen as the trigger point? >> we know some of these proxy groups have sympathies with, ties in some way to iran. but how close is the coordination between tehran and all of these different groups? how much does tehran know, for example, in advance about a like like one that killed the three u.s. soldiers? tehran seems to be saying it doesn't control its proxy groups. how much does the coordination there weigh into the

calculations over what the u.s. response might be? >> iran has set up with all of these groups some sort of plausible ddeniability. there is connective tissue between all of them. the irgc has been seen to actually do coordination in yemen, trying to point out u.s. navy ships being targeted and struck with drones and missiles. in iraq, this is a longstanding series of relationships. if you remember the period where the u.s. was fighting there, iranian-backed militias were a common threat to u.s. forces. they deployed mines and ieds in different places to strike against them. the u.s. has really good intelligence on all these groups. there are almost 4,000 troops in the region between iraq and syria. i think the u.s. will probably take some sort of action with respect to iran.

i'm hoping there will be more disclosures too about these connections. >> extraordinary pressure on the biden administration now to respond. to this point, post october 7th and with the escalation of these iranian proxy attacks, the white house have been selective, ignoring some of the attacks, only responding to those of serious consequence. that changed, though, over the weekend now that american lives have been lost, three military members killed and a couple dozen injured. there's going to be significant expectation for a more serious response. the president and his team pride themselves on ignore outside pressure. this will be a process that will play out in the hours and days ahead. their mantra is they respond at the time and place of their choosing, and they won't be pressured into acting before they're ready. rest assures, i think the officials are telegraphing there will be a response and it will

be soon and probably severe. >> joining us now, white house press secretary karine jean-pierre. is there anything new since we spoke with admiral kirby in the last hour in terms of the biden administration's plans to respond to what has happened? >> so nothing new to report back from what admiral john kirby shared with all of you about an hour or so ago. what i will say, obviously our deepest condolences and heartfelt condolences go out to the families who lost three folks who are military folks who are brave who were fighting on behalf of this administration, of the american people. obviously more importantly, we lost those souls yesterday, as the president said when he was in south carolina. our hearts go out to their

families, their friends. there are also wounded soldier and military forces as well, and our hearts go out to them. we want to make sure we offer up those deep condolences to them. look, the admiral said this and i'll repeat we will respond at our choosing. the first thing on the president's mind always is to make sure we're protecting our troops. that has not changed. i'm certainly not going to lay out a timeline, but the president isthinking about the troops. yesterday was a very, very sad day. >> there's also domestic politics here at home which still seem pretty twisted up. what is the hope that the border deal goes through given the posture the house speaker is taking? >> look, you heard from the president this past weekend. he said we're making real progress on dealing with an

issue that 75% of americans believe in and want to see, which is fixing the immigration system, a broken system that has been broken for decades now. even in the last administration it was broken as well. and a border that needs to be secured. we've been hearing speaker johnson talk about how the president does have legal authority, and that is not the truth. that is not the case. the president has said give him the legal authority and he will use it. let's not forget not too long ago speaker johnson said presidents need new legal authority to deal with border security. he has said that. the trump administration said the same, and he endorsed that fully. speaker johnson said, yes, that is the case. so if he believes that, let's act, let's do something. let's move on something that the majority of americans want to see. republicans and democrats in the senate have been working for two months with our administration trying to find a bipartisan

agreement to deal with this issue, to deal with the issue of the border and fixing our broken immigration system. that's what we're asking. we have continued, mika, to put forth solutions, and house republicans have gotten in the way. now, we agree with speaker johnson where he was a couple of months ago. give the president new legal authorities. the president has said himself over the weekend he will use it. >> if house republicans block this border package for ukraine aid, does that mean there will be no more assistance from america to ukraine in the war? is that the end of the line in terms of america being able to help the ukrainians with military assistance? >> i don't want to get into hypotheticals. a bipartisan agreement is what we want to see. we're appreciative of democrats and republicans coming together to get that done. there's progress and they're heading in the right direction.

back in october the president put forth his national security supplemental. he put it forth because it was an emergency request. he wanted to make sure ukraine had what it needed to defend itself against putin's aggression, against tyranny. we know, if we look at the history, what happens if you do not stop a dictator. we have to be very, very clear on this. we want to see congress push forward and move forward with his entire national security supplemental. that's what we want to see. that's why we're having, obviously, these border security agreements to make sure we get to a place where we have a bipartisan agreement to fix this broken immigration system. the president wants to see his national security supplemental move forward, because it is needed, especially with what ukraine is dealing with right now with the aggression from president putin. >> it seems like the whole package is in jeopardy because donald trump is telling

republicans to scuttle it. it has foreign aid to israel as well. there's been reporting in recent days that the white house, which has been well documented, is thinking of pulling back some aid or attaching conditions or restrictions to it. can you comment on that? >> i don't want to get into commenting on those specifics. we've been clear that israel has a right to defend itself, obviously following international humanitarian law. israel is an ally, a friend. we saw what happened on october 7th. and obviously hamas is a terrorist organization that said they would repeat october 7th over and over and over again. so we want to continue to be really clear on that. that's why the president, again, in the national supplemental it includes ukraine, israel and border security.

that's how serious the president took this on border security. he wanted to make sure it was included in the supplemental. he included immigration reform. that was three years ago. if congress had acted, we wouldn't be in the situation we're in currently on the border. we want congress to act and move forward with the national security supplemental, because it's important. we're having discussions in the senate on how to move forward with a border security agreement that is bipartisan. 75% of americans want us to deal with the issue at the border, deal with the broken immigration system. that's how we want to move forward in a bipartisan way, and that is what's important right now. give the president new legal authorities. as he said this weekend, he will use it as it relates to securing the border. >> white house press secretary karine jean-pierre, thank you so much, as always. >> thank you. and president biden hit the

campaign trail over the weekend, visiting south carolina ahead of the state's primary and delivering some of his most direct attacks of donald trump yet. >> by the way, have you notic he's a little confused these days? he apparently can't tell the difference between nikki haley and nancy pelosi. as commander in chief, i look at veterans completely differently than donald trump. think about this, especially here in south carolina, a proud military state. donald trump, when he was commander in chief, refused to visit a u.s. cemetery outside of paris for fallen american soldiers. he referred to those heros, quote, as suckers and losers. he actually said that! how dare he say that!

how dare he talk about my son like that! look, i call them patriots and heros. the only loser i see is donald trump. >> joining us now from the white house, correspondent for politico, eugene daniels. you were at president's event in south carolina over the weekend. what stood out to you? >> i traveled with the president from here to south carolina and back. what was interesting was the excitement that was with these black voters. we went to the barbershop. we went to a lunch event. we went to a church. there was a lot more excitement. you've heard from democrats asking the biden campaign why do you feel so good about the black vote when we're looking at polls and looking a little shaky. these kinds of events are why,

where you're hearing "four more years" chants come up unprompted. you're hearing a call and response back and forth to what the president was saying when he's talking about promises made, promises kept. you could hear it in the clip you just played them talking back and forth about donald trump and their hate of him, frankly. obviously dean phillips was also at that dinner. he went up. there was no one really paying attention to him, so much so a few times he had to say, i'm up here, show me some respect, over and over again. even someone who was sitting at a dean phillips table, who was invited by dean phillips, was for biden. but they have to figure out a way to take that excitement, that support from south carolina and move it into these other states in the general election,

like georgia. and also make sure that young voters care about him just as much as a lot of those older voters do. when i talk to young voters, they brought up what's happening in israel and gaza right now. they talked about how that was upsetting for them. they talked about their need for more student loan movement, but gave the president credit for doing that. so they know the kind of things that are happening and what the president is doing. they want to see more. >> eugene, i think we can safely predict that president biden will defeat dean phillips to become the democratic nominee for president this year. courting the black vote is so important for this administration. the president and vice president were both out of the road, and they really stepped up their attacks on donald trump as well, really trying to draw those contrasts about presidential conduct, about fitness for office and as well as on key issues like abortion.

>> they're trying to draw this contrast to make this a choice election. they don't want it to be a referendum on the four years of the biden administration. they want it to say it's either us or him. they have been pushed by outside democrats and even some of their allies to do more of that. we are finally seeing a real campaign. after iowa and new hampshire and the votes we saw there and what we're expecting in south carolina on the republican side, they have clearly made a decision it is time to go at him full force and to do it for a long time. there's a feeling within the campaign that while these numbers aren't great, they're looking at the same polling we are on the matchup between donald trump and joe biden in november. what they're saying is, when people really start paying attention, they're going to remember the chaos of the trump presidency. they're trying to lay the

groundwork for that at this point. remember the kind of things he did and said while donald trump is going in and out of courtrooms and telling the american voter you have a choice to make here. you may not like me, but the other guy is worse. that is something they have to do, but also something they are very cognizant of. even though it's a choice election between two people technically, there's a third party threat out there. coming up on "morning joe," donald trump now is on the hook for more than $83 million in defamation damages. the jury has awarded e. jean carroll that. we'll have legal analysis. plus, convicted killer alex murdaugh is seeking a new murder trial.

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the jury in his defamation case has ordered donald trump to pay e. jean carroll $83.3 million. trump is a billionaire, so obviously he immediately hit up your grandma for $5. they ordered donald trump to pay $83 million. that's how unlikable he is. for perspective, o.j. simpson only had to pay 33 million for a double murder. the only way this could have gone worse for trump is if they took away his businesses, which is, of course, what happens in next week's trial. a jury on friday found donald trump must pay e. jean carroll $83.3 million in damages for repeatedly defaming her.

totally self-destructive. this morning carroll reflected on the size of the award and what it was like to face trump in court. >> the elation was so great on friday, it filled me up. it was almost painful. today i'm just very happy, because i'm calm enough to realize what she did. i'd like to give the money to something donald trump hates. if it will cause him pain for me to give money to certain things, that's my intent. perhaps a fund for the women who have been sexual assaulted by donald trump. >> what was it like being in the courtroom with donald trump? >> well, terrifying until i got there. the weeks leading up to it, no sleep, you know, couldn't eat. and then i sat down.

robbie said, could morn, can you spell your name for the court. i spelled my name and looked out there, and it was like he was nothing, like an emperor without clothes. all my terror leading up to that and it was an amazing reaction. it's probably because she had taken me by my little hand and made me feel that secure. but he is the emperor with no clothes. let me tell you, he is not there. the "there" is not there. >> wow. joining us now former u.s. attorney joyce vance and state attorney for palm beach county, florida, dave aronberg. can he get out of paying this by getting someone else to pay for it, like jared got $2 billion from saudi arabia? they have lots of rush family members.

joyce, you first. >> so it doesn't really matter how donald trump satisfies this judgment. he can get money from other places. you know, it can be $5 in donations from grandmas and grandpas across the country, i suppose. but the reality is, even though there will be an appeal, even though it may take some time, donald trump will pay every last penny of this money to e. jean carroll. >> dave, your take? >> i agree with joyce. i don't see him getting out of this. he's got to post a bond just to appeal within 30 days of the judgment. so e. jean carroll will get her money at some point. he can try to get money from his supporters, but he's got to tell them what it's for. he can't say, help me with my reelection fund and then divert the money to e. jean carroll. that would be a crime. ultimately she gets paid. friends of his may help him pay it because looming down the pike is the fact there's a greater

judgment he will face in the new york fraud trial where he faces up to $370 million in liability. it's not going to get any better for the former president. >> talk about what donald trump's own behavior in court did during this trial, what impact it had on the final ruling from the jury. >> i think that's a great question, because the verdict in the first trial was $5 million. here we have $83.3 million. what happened? donald trump happened. donald trump continued to defame e. jean carroll in advance of this trial during the prior verdict and during this trial. robbie kaplan is a very skillful lawyer and was quick to point that out to the jury throughout the trial and in closing arguments. i've known e. jean carroll a long time. those comments are very

characteristic of who she is. i think that's the use that roberta kaplan, the lawyer, put donald trump's comments to. she said, you've got to make it stop. that's what this jury's verdict is intended to do. >> let's get to two other trump related legal matters that, frankly, either could come at any day. one is the verdict in the civil fraud trial, also in new york, and what punishment he may receive there. the second is that federal appeals court in washington who is mulling over trump's claim of total presidential immunity. >> i have two straightforward answers. on judge engoron's ruling in the new york civil fraud case, he's told us to expect an order on

wednesday. i think we'll see it on schedule or close to it, and he'll stick to the decisions he made before that case went to trial. i think he will pull the business from trump organizations, which means they'll have to stop doing real estate business in the state of new york. we'll see him order them to give a significant amount of ill gotten gains. it will be substantial. on the immunity issue, i think like all of us, i'm just watching the clock tick, wondering when we will see this ruling. it should be any day now. it will be a ruling that says that donald trump is not cloaked in presidential immunity for criminal acts. the real issue is whether the three panel judges will have a unanimous route that they take to get there and whether or not there will be an additional appeal before this case goes to trial.

>> let's look at some live pictures now of a hearing getting under way on whether one of the most high profile murder cases in recent memory will have to be retried. we're talking about alex murdaugh, the man you see right there, who's currently serving consecutive life sentences for killing his wife maggie and younger son paul. murdaugh's defense team claims the clerk of court tampered with the jury. nbc news correspondent sam brock has the details from columbia, south carolina. >> reporter: less than a year after being convicted of killing his wife and youngest son, alex murdaugh will be back in a south carolina courtroom, trying to get his highly publicized sex-week case retried. the judge overseeing the

hearing, a former state supreme court justice, laid out basic ground rules for exploring scathing accusations the clerk of court becky hill tampered with the jury. >> these people are witnesses to what the clerk said to the jury deliberating. our focus will be on the jurors that heard this case and not on that alternate. >> reporter: one jury writing in a sworn affidavit, hill told them not to be fooled by the evidence presented by mr. murdaugh's attorneys and also look at his actions and movements, which i understood to mean he was guilty. ten other jurors did not make those accusations in their affidavits. one didn't submit one at all. and hill herself denied the claims, saying i did not tell the jury not to be fooled, i did not instruct the jury to watch him closely or look at his actions. before the accusations, hill was

surprisingly vocal and public. >> there were so many things that happened behind these doors of justice that the whole world would be so interested, i think, to know. >> reporter: promoting her book "behind the doors of justice". >> i think alex got the justice he deserved. >> reporter: murdaugh's attorneys arguing a conviction would have boosted her book sales, providing a possible motivation for tampering. >> any time there's outside influence in the sanctity of the jury room, it is improper. >> reporter: shortly after the trial, a trio of jurors sat down with savannah and craig, explaining what pushed them to guilty. >> the testimony was believable. >> as we go back live to the courtroom in columbia, south

carolina, dave aronberg, first of all, what's your reaction to these developments? could this entire verdict be overturned or thrown out? what's at stake here? >> mika, it looks like becky hill, the clerk of court, acted inappropriately here. that's a different question than what the court is going to decide. the court said that it's not just whether she acted inappropriately, it's whether the verdict was changed. did she convince a juror to change his or her mind? you heard from the jurors in that last clip they based their decision on the evidence in the case, the testimony. unless you can get one of the 12 jurors to say under oath, yes, i would have decided this way, but i changed my mind because of becky hill, then this verdict will stand. >> wow. all right. state attorney for palm beach county, florida, dave aronberg, thank you. we'll be following this case as it develops. coming up, top senate negotiators say a bipartisan deal on border security could be

ready in the coming days as former president trump continues to voice his opposition. we'll have the latest from capitol hill, next on "morning joe." capitol hill, next on "morning joe. he hits his mark —center stage—and is crushed by a baby grand piano. you're replacing me? customize and save with liberty bibberty. he doesn't even have a mustache. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ the first time you connected your godaddy website and your store was also the first time you realized... well, we can do anything. cheesecake cookies? the chookie! manage all your sales from one place with a partner that always puts you first. (we did it) start today at godaddy.com

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senate negotiaors are inching close other to a bipartisan border security deal and may be able to get it to the upper chamber's floor as early as this week, but the legislation becoming law still faces long odds. >> reporter: as the influx of migrants continues at the southern border, washington hoping a deal to stem the tide could be close. >> if that bill were law today, i'd shut down the border right now and fix it quickly. >> reporter: president biden and lawmakers working on a bipartisan deal to expand authority at the border, lawmakers hopeful it can pass. >> we do have a bipartisan deal.

we're finishing the text right now. >> reporter: this despite former president trump opposing the bill. >> i'd rather have no bill than a bad deal. >> reporter: mr. trump condemning the bill over the weekend, claiming without evidence there will be major terror attacks if migrants continue to come in. other republicans pushing back. >> donald trump, the last thing he needs to do is tell them to wait to pass a border deal before the election. we can't wait one more day. >> reporter: it comes as republican texas governor greg abbott is in a standoff with the federal government denying federal agents access to an area in eagle pass that's been the epicenter of the migrant surge, now surrounded by a fence and razor wire, the state even adding more razor wire last week. republica governors from 25 states signing a letter supporting texas. all this as house republicans unveil articles of impeachment

against homeland security secretary alejandro mayorkas, alleging he displayed a refusal to comply with the law and accused them of making false statements and only obstructing lawful oversight of the department of homeland security. dhs blasted the move, calling it an unconstitutional, evidence-free impeachment. >> let's bring in the capitol hill correspondent. republicans seem to want to do anything but get legislation passed. >> reporter: exactly. republicans have tied themselves into a political pretzel, because they actually wanted immigration and border policy tied to foreign funding for ukraine. that is something they had put out as a marker at the end of last year. now as this deal is getting close, you heard senator chris

murphy, who's the top democrat in the room, negotiates this, hoping to release text by midweek. you have republicans not only in the house, but also in the senate trying to put pause on the thing. that is certainly causing frustration among republicans. you heard from so many of these guys who are saying that if republicans vote against this now, they are doing so solely for political purposes, speaking of which you also have in the house an impeachment effort against alejandro mayorkas, the guy in the room who is negotiating these policies. this really is a flashpoint this week to see if they can get this done. it's going to be a long hurdle in the senate. they're going to have to give folks time to read this bill. folks i talked to last week wanted to make sure they don't want to let folks leave time. they want to make sure this bill

gets passed. you sihaves opposed to some of the funding for israel, for example, some of the border policies as well. this isn't just a republican party. this is one democratic leadership has to pay attention to as well. they need to give people time to read this bill so republicans don't accuse them of trying to jam something down their throats. a really big problem for republicans in the house and senate. we'll see if they can get this done when the senate returns tomorrow. >> columnist for "the dily beast" david rothkopf. what should joe biden do right now that he's not doing? >> i think he should continue doing what he has been doing with regard to trying to get this bill through the senate,

because the reality is that a strong bill like this, which is stronger than any bill we've seen come out of the congress in this century, really represents the best bipartisan chance to solve this problem. but if this bill does go down in flames, then what is necessary is that the president use the means at his disposal to get the state of texas to comply with the supreme court and the constitution of the united states. that means sending in federal authorities to act in the way the supreme court said they have every right to act. it could mean nationalizing the texas national guard. it could even mean, as dwight eisenhower did in the case of brown versus board of education, sending in u.s. troops to ensure the constitution is followed and the federal government, not the government of texas, controls

our borders. >> let's talk about the other part of this coin, which is what the republican governors are doing in texas, but also others in red states who are coming to his assistance. what are the dangers you see that if the biden administration doesn't step in forcefully like you're advocating, what can happen? >> look, the dangers are extraordinary. essentially the language used by the state of texas echoes the language used by the southern states when they seceded from the union in 1861. the astonishing fact that the republican presidential frontrunner donald trump and 25 governors support this language suggests you're on the beginning of a slippery slope where these republicans could say, you know, we don't like what the federal government is doing on x or y or z, so we're not going to do it anymore. we're going to ignore federal authority. that's the beginning of the end of the union as we see it.

we're not quite at the point of civil war, but we are at the point of people talking seditiously, number one among them donald trump. >> we heard from republican governor kristi noem of south dakota. here's a bit more of what she said in support of texas' use of razor wire fences despite the supreme court decision. >> you know, it's interesting the decision that came out of the supreme court. they talked about the fact that biden could take down razor wire. texas will put it back up. i think there will be other legal challenges, but i'm proud of the challenges. i'm proud of the fact that this state and 25 other governors are standing and declaring and protecting our state sovereignty. texas and those 13 original colonies would have never signed the treaty that formed the first constitution of the united states if they didn't think their right to protect

themselves and defend their own people was protected. >> we all agree ha the constitution is the supreme law of the land. if the supreme court gets something wrong, for example, if they tried to ban and say we didn't have a second amendment right to bear arms, i think the constitution super seeds somebody in washington, d.c. telling us. >> i mean, david, it just seems like the republican party, especially the house republicans are being everything but republican. they don't want the strongest border legislation that they can get. now we've got them saying they don't really respect the constitution, they don't respect the supreme court. this was the party that always was very proud of being the party of the rule of law. who are they and what happened to the republican party? >> well, we know. we watched. trumpism happened to the republican party. it's a kind of collective mental

illness. they've lost their damn minds. they are not adhering to the constitution. they're saying the federal government does not have authority. if they really care about the border, then i hope these 25 governors will stand up and support this bipartisan legislation and send a message to mike johnson that it should pass in the house. if they really want to do something about it, then do something about it. by the way, if they do that, they will also participate in not betraying, as mike johnson seems to want us to do, our national security by undermining the ability to get funds to ukraine which he has tied to this border deal. there are multiple betrayals that the republican party is working on right now, and they need to be called on it. they need to be asked, if you really care about the border, are you doing everything that's possible to defend that border. >> columnist at "the daily

beast" david rothkopf, thank you very much for your insight this morning. still ahead on "morning joe," we'll bring you an update on the health of a princess of wales following abdominal surgery. "morning joe" is back in just a moment. joe" is back in just a moment >> woman: why did we choose safelite? we were loading our suv when... crack! safelite came right to us, and we could see exactly when they'd arrive with a replacement we could trust. that's service the way we want it. >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪

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now to news out of london. this morning kensington palace announced princess of wales kate middleton was released from the hospital and is now home recovering from her planned abdominal surgery. after spending 13 days in the hospital, the palace says princess kate is making good progress and ha the royal family is grateful for the well wishes received from around the world. katty, interesting that this news came out that she was going to have this surgery at the same time the news came out about king charles, and his information was so much more specific.

not that we're interested in getting the specifics. we respect her privacy, but it does indicate a level of seriousness. >> the king wanted to make sure he did this as a public service announcement. he said, listen, i have a prostate problem. he went in on friday for minor surgery on that. men in the uk flooded the national health service to get their prostate checked. i think the palace will be pleased that the king sent out a positive message with a good impact. >> we'll stay on this. that does it for us this morning. ana cabrera picks up the coverage in two minutes. coverag. diabetes can serve up a lot of questions, like... what is your glucose, and can you have more carbs? before you decide... with the freestyle libre 3 system... know your glucose and where it's headed. no fingersticks needed. now the world's smallest and thinnest sensor...

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