♪ ♪ ♪ everything is on the table. that's what e. jean carroll lawyer robbie kaplan said today about the potential for more legal action against donald trump, if and when he defames her client again. we're gonna spend a lot of time talking about that case tonight. conservative attorney george conway is standing by, here in washington. he's the person who introduced carroll and caplan, and he's got the email to prove it. plus, legendary democratic strategist james carville is coming up in just a minute to talk about how the looming general election is anything but normal, and the dangers associated with talking about it in normal terms. i do want to start tonight

with something that e. jean carroll said, just this morning, that really stuck with me all day. >> what was it like being in the courtroom with donald trump? >> well, terrifying, until i got there. the weeks leading up to it, no sleep, couldn't eat, couldn't do -- and then, i sat down, robbie said, good morning ms. carroll, can you please spell your name for the court. i spelled my name. i looked out, and it was like, he was, like, nothing, like an emperor without clothes. all my terror leading up to it, and then he's just something in a suit. >> he was like nothing, as she just said, like an emperor with no clothes. she was scared. she admitted that. but when she saw him in that courtroom, she realized he was nothing. e. jean carroll is not a political strategist. don't go down that road, she never has been. she's not giving advice to the biden campaign. but what's she said there may

actually offer some wisdom about donald trump. she revealed something here that is important to keep in mind as we all hurdle towards the general election, because trump might act strong. he might seem scary at times. he certainly hurls insults and throws around violent threats every day. but he's not big and strong. he's in fact small and weak. when push comes to shove, he's just not that tough. trump is kind of like the wizard in the wizard of oz, you guys all know that movie, with all the bombast, all the theatrics, all the drama. when you pull that curtain, he's just a guy in a suit facing 91 charges across four different criminal cases. even the argument that trump himself is making when he embraces dictators in his stump speeches, by the way, like viktor orban, kim jong-un, vladimir putin, and says he would be a dictator on day one, none of that, none of it is a sign of strength. any dictator out there, or even

a dictator in waiting, like, say, donald trump, is desperate and willing to do anything to seize and meeting power. dictators want to control the people they govern because that's the only way they can hold on to that power. but despite all of this, he is convinced that a lot of people in this country that he is strong. he's on a fast track right now for the republican nomination, we can't deny that. so, the question for democrats is really, how can they pull back the curtain, like in the wizard of oz? how can they may make voters seem for what they really is? and the way that e. jean carroll saw him in that new york city courtroom and talked about this morning, to that point, the new york times is also out today with new reporting that sheds some light on president biden's reelection strategy, which is to make the general election a referendum on trump. as the times put it, in a race without historical parallel, a contest between two presidents, one of them facing 91 criminal charges, biden is making an extraordinary gamble, betting that trump remains such an

animating force in american life that the current leader can turn the 2024 election into a frenzy, not on himself, but on his predecessor. but they go on to write, biden's team and his top allies plan to paint trump as a mortal threat to american government and civil society. i mean, first of all, reminder, all of this is, none of this is normal. this is not a normal matchup. it's not a normal election year. the race is not going to be a bunch of side by side fact sheets comparing policy. that's old quaint politics. this isn't going to be a debate like we saw between barack obama and john mccain, or bill clinton and george h. w. bush. this is going to be about the threat of trump, to our rights, our countries founding principles, and about his willingness to do just about anything to hold on to power. that is what the mortal threat is. that desperation. because what e. jean carroll described this morning, this small, weak defendant in a courtroom in a suit, that's actually a large part of what makes trump such a threat. he's desperate.

he's willing to do anything to get back to the white house and to stay there. we have really witnessed that. so, his smallness actually is what makes him scary. it makes him capable of doing the things that he wants to do to our country. and he is telling us what he wants to do over and over again. he is desperate enough to do it. that's what's scary. that's also a reminder of why, as much as everyone might be tired of hearing donald trump, believe me i get it, i'm tired of talking about him. but we need to talk about him more, not less. starting us off tonight is democratic strategist james carville, who i have been waiting to talk with since i watched the war room many years ago. it's great to see you here. i want to just start there because you've said this, and this really stuck with me, and i could not agree with it more. i mean, this is not a normal election. we can't treat it like that. but in your view, how should people, no historical parallels, how should people be talking about it out there? >> first of all, donald trump

is an adjudicated rapist -- by ordinary definition, maybe he's just been found by the jury -- he is also an adjudicated business fraud. this is not normal. he must be identified -- and trump said this, biden said that, no, no. it has to be reminded at every juncture. when i grew up, i was in college during the civil rights era. that's how old i am. when martin luther king said something -- get a response. they won pulitzer prizes. there's a lot of these journals, you work with them, you know a lot of them, they just can't wait to normalize this, they can't wait to have drinks and yuks with jason miller, or steve miller, just act like everything is -- it's clinton and dole, it's

obama and romney. and we want to have our fun, just like you and tim did. no, that's not what it is. that's not it at all. we can't let him get that. >> it's not policies. now, you are pulling off a pink college sweatshirt, so don't call yourself old, paul say that. there is a debate, i'm sure people ask you this all the time, my friends asked me this, people ask me this on tv, why does not president biden go after trump on being a sexual assaulter? why doesn't he go after him on all of these legal troubles and legal turmoil? you and i both know well, there's lots of levers in a campaign. there is the candidate. there's paid media, there's campaign spokespeople. how should they be approaching this and going after trump on these legal issues, and how should that be the same as what the president is doing or separate? >> i would tell the president's campaign, yes, we got your back, dude. we're going after him with a meat cleaver, a rhetorical meat

cleaver, if you will. but the president can go out, talk about what he's doing on infrastructure, the tremendous progress he's making, 40,000 new projects around the country. he can talk about other things. but he doesn't -- we can handle this. we can do this at a little bit lower level. and we have to keep the heat on. we've got to remind people of what's at stake here and let the president and his campaign go about and doing the things that they can do. i know most of those people, they're all quite talented. they're all quite good. we need to stop copying about the staff work and get on, and let's get this train moving, and save this country, and save this constitution. because that's really what we're faced with here. >> it's what it's about, a meat cleaver on the outside, but let the president focus on other things. >> he can be the scalpel, we the meat cleaver. meat cleaver weaver, that's me. let's go get. am >> i like i'm, people want meat cleaver t-shirts out this.

i said this, and i'm a believer in this, a lot of people are weighing on this question recently, on whether or not we should be talking about trump more or less, right? because there was a debate, do we show's speeches? do we talk about all the crazy things he's doing? and i have their view, we have to talk about the crazy things he's doing, even if we are tired of it, because that's how people will know how crazy he is, and what november presents. but what do you think? >> so, what i'm scared of is, okay, we talk about it on the other side. all right, we talked about, and they start going, well this is his position, this is biden's position. this is this, this is that. and it becomes like, well, we just vote on the person. no, this is not normal. this is not what we are used to. this is an entirely different thing. the man has been adjudicated by a jury of his peers, as a sexual assaultist, rapist, according to the judge. he's already been an adjudicated business fraud. we're just waiting to see how

much it's going to cost him. you can't let him up you can't normalize him, can't let him off the canvas not for one second. and it might not be the most one thing to do in a campaign. it might not be what i want to be doing in my 80th year. but it's necessary. we don't get to do what you want to do. we do what we got to do. that's where we are right now. we have to keep the foot on this guy, right on his neck, take our heel, and twist it. >> which means you have to talk about it. let me ask you about, it's hard for the biden team, they're struggling a little bit, which is the economic messaging, right? and i always hate to blame on messaging because everybody is always blaming it on messaging. but they do have a good economic data. there was good data last week. it's also true that you can't tell people how they feel about about the economy. you run a campaign where the economy was pretty seven central. what advice would you be giving them about how to talk about this? >> for two years, the press,

the financial press, everyone said this is the recession. it's a recession. people kept believing that. you know what? they say something often and long enough, people will start to believe that. what the president can't do is say this is where they said we would be. we clearly are better than that. but if you try to argue and you tell people we have a great economy and they don't feel, it may get mad at you. but you are certainly doing a lot better than the projections. and you can talk about things like prescription drugs, prescription drug costs, and you can talk about that subsidies, health insurance that are coming up. a record number of people don't have insurance. and i understand, don't ever use the word transitory, and do not use the word inflation. cost of living -- no, that's a stupid term, transitory, get rid of it. we understand that. we are working really hard. we hope, you know, we think we will see some benefit. we are certainly doing a lot better than we were told we're gonna do. and also, going back to this

infrastructure, it's a tangible thing, tangible things, interstate highway system, he can do that. it's legitimate. it's bipartisan. it's showing america can work again and we can do things as a country, and i think that's very important, the president's message, equally important that we keep trump front and center and this. don't let him escape. don't let him be normalized. it's how we can lose this. >> meat cleave him, put a boot on his neck. we've got a few terms there. >> let me ask, when i have you here, this is about the third republican primary. this is going on. nikki haley has been out every day, going after trump much harder. i mean, this feels like a kind, it might help president biden. like what do you think and how do you think they should keep using that? >> i don't want to relitigate 2016 with bernie sanders cost

his reasons, one of the reasons that trump is there -- i think this is a great that nikki haley is saying -- hats off to these republican donors that continue to support her. you know, obviously, she doesn't have a chance, but every day she's in their, every day that she is under attack, it's a good day. and she is putting donald trump front and center, and a lot of these billionaire republican donors really don't care for her very much. but thank god, i never thought the koch brothers or something -- it's the key part in their, stay on the cutting edge, because that's gonna cost to, i promise you. and i see liz cheney is giving some money, great. i'm all for it. >> we're gonna do a cheers to the koch brothers and liz cheney in 2024. welcome to 2024! there is where we are. let me ask you just about the haley voters, we saw in new hampshire, we looked at the data, the numbers, kind of interesting. some of those people basically

said, i voted for haley, but i'm gonna support biden. some of them were not quite there on biden. do you think that's fertile ground? do you think the biden team should be focused on that group? there's a lot of groups you have to focus on, you have to win the most electoral votes of course. >> so a lot of people who voted for our republicans. i think generally about republicans. but you have a substantial number who say they can't vote for trump. guess what? welcome, we won't -- if you can get us, a stretch to the constitution, we can go back, fight over the tax cuts, or fight over the minimum wage, or whatever the fights we had in the past. but right now, jen, we are in a fight for the constitution of the united states. and in world war ii, they had the union working with a mafia, working with everybody. we had to win the war. and after you win the war, we settle everything out. so, thank you, thank you, nikki haley donors, thank you very much, you're doing the work, and we will keep the meat

cleaver in action here. >> and on the meat cleaver, perfect place to end. james carville, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom with us this evening. >> thank you, jen. glad to be on your show. >> great to be with you. up next, pretty soon, trump is gonna have to put his money where his mouth is. and based on what we know about his finances, the e. jean carroll judgment plus the civil fraud trial could stretch him pretty thin financially. george conway is standing by here in washington. lisa rubin is going to join us as well. we just getting started tonight. we'll be right back, we're back after this. ♪ ♪ ♪

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donald trump is now on the hook for $88.3 million for sexually abusing and defaming e. jean carroll. that is not to mention another potentially massive judgment coming his way, up to 370 million in the civil fraud case against him and his company. needless to say, that's a staggering amount of money, for anyone to cough up, even for a self described billionaire. for that point, listen to what trump said about his liquid assets in his sworn deposition last year. >> a lot of cash, i believe. substantially in excess of 400 million cash, which is a lot for a developer. developers usually don't have cash. they have assets, not cash. i believe 400 plus, going up very substantially. >> now, i'm not a mathematician. i don't claim to be. let's not forget trump's facts, but it sounds like it's going

to take all of that cash, probably more, to make up for his notoriously bad judgments. and maybe that's the point, that money talks, and the threat of losing it might be one of the only things that can shut donald trump up. joining me now here in washington, conservative attorney george conway. he's a contributor to the atlantic and co-host of the podcast, george conway explains it all. and with us from new york, msnbc legal analyst, lisa rubin, who has covered the e. jean carroll case very closely. george, let me start with you, because you have a small but important role here. you connected e. jean carroll with robbie kaplan. there is an email to prove it that you put out. so, you played a role in this as well. and it's an important one, there is the email. this morning, he did a number of interviews. and i want to play something that robbie kaplan said this morning. >> our options are on the table. >> what does that mean?

>> if we have to bring another case, we'll bring another case. it's just gonna be more money. >> you know her well. we've watched trump very closely. what is she watching for exactly, and do you think trump will be able to control himself? >> the answer is she's watching for a future defamation, and that answer is he can't control himself. it's exactly what judge kaplan said in open court just last week, or the week before. you can't control yourself, can you? you can't -- he can't control himself. >> and if he uses her name? >> if he uses her name and says something that's defamatory, accuses her of lying, the allegations of rape, it's fault, even though it has been proven to the satisfaction of the unanimous jury. and to the u.s. district court, the southern district of new york, he does that again. she should get more damages. you know, this process can continue infinitely. i don't think he can control himself. he is not well. he's an unwell person and he's a narcissistic sociopath, he cannot help himself. it's not just he is showing

signs of dementia. i think haley is pointing out, he is a, he is a personality disorder that has followed him throughout his life. and he cannot help himself. and that's the reason why, part of the reason, why he got hit with this 88. 3 million dollar judgment. he was defaming her all night, every night, during the trial, outside the courthouse! and he had to have known full well that that was going to ramp up the damages because the question of punitive damages, is that the person doing it maliciously? what's it gonna take to get this man to stop? he's basically saying, no, no, i'm just gonna do it -- >> i don't care. it is an unwell person who attacks a woman he sexually assaulted. so, lisa, let's talk about the money here, because that is sort of one of the big questions. i mean, obviously, 88. 3 million dollars, huge amount of

money. we are waiting for the judgment in the civil fraud case, which could be an even much larger amount of money. just trump has that kind of money, amount of money on hand that he needs to pay, and what happens if he doesn't? >> i don't think many of us take donald trump's representations and that deposition you just played a clip of, jen, at face value. if you ask donald trump, as simply, april 2023, when he was deposed by the new york attorney generals office, he said he had over $400 million cash on him. however, if the attorney generals office is able to get a disclosure or, meaning getting the ill gotten gains of his fraud scheme -- that, plus the 88. 3 million he currently owes e. jean carroll would wipe out that liquidity even if we thought that is how much cash he has. in reality, the amount he has on hand is much lower than that. and that is why in the past few days, while he is toeing up to the line, we have not yet seen him engage in conduct that either george or i would call

defamatory. i call it provocative, and i will call it almost there, but we're not quite there yet. all he has done so far, and i don't want to excuse it, his republish other peoples defamatory words about e. jean carroll. and so far, what he has done is not what the law would consider its own information. >> it is like a weird version of self control. it's all relative. i just want to ask, i mean, watching this, before the last couple of days, i mean, robbie kaplan clearly got under his skin. and all of this clearly got under his skin. what do you think that should tell us about trump and how to kind of run against trump, what is going to bother trump, et cetera? >> i said this for quite some time, when i say it again. make him crazy. he is already crazy. if you point out that things -- the reason why he is the way he

is, the reason why he is this pathological narcissist it's because he's deeply insecure, and he knows that he is a fraud. he knows he's not as smart as he says he is. he knows he's not as good as he says he is. he knows he's a rapist. he knows he's a liar. he knows, he doesn't want to be exposed. and if you attack him on the things that he feels sensitive about, with the truth, he melts. and exactly as you say, he is a bully, but he is a weak man. you know, he puts up this strong man, act at that trial in front of the jury, he didn't actually show up for the first trial, where he could have been cross-examined about what happened in that department store, because he's scared. >> the emperor has no clothes -- >> terrible image. >> people can't unsee that. it was something e. jean carroll said that i thought was really powerful. george conway, lisa rubin, thank you both for joining me this evening. a reminder, e. jean carroll and her attorneys robbie kaplan

and sean crowley will join rachel maddow live tonight at nine pm eastern, coming up in the next hour. well coming up in here, you need to calm down. i will explain why taylor swift is sending right-wing conspiracy theories into an absolute tailspin. but first, senator brian schatz is standing by to talk about how his republican colleagues are playing politics with two very important issues. it's dangerous. we're back after a quick break. ♪ ♪ ♪

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the united states faces a

number of very big challenges right now. this weekend, iranian proxies attacked a u.s. base in jordan, killing three service members and wounding more than 30 others. the attack serves as a reminder of just how volatile the world is and how desperately we need serious leadership. but that debate in washington about what to do to address the challenges we are facing is exposing just how unserious some of our elected officials. take the situation on the southern border. republicans in congress have been screaming, and i mean screaming, about the immigration crisis for years. now, there is a bipartisan deal on the table, conservative members, including senator lindsey graham, and minority whip john thune, not exactly flag flying liberals, are urging their colleagues to support the deal, saying it's the best one they could get, even if trump is elected. it seems like it's a no-brainer, right? well, not after donald trump came out against it. senate minority leader mitch mcconnell is now saying, quote, the political situation has drifted, whatever that means. and speaker mike johnson thinks

the bill is dead on arrival in the house. i wonder why. he did talk to trump recently before he said that. senator james lankford, a top negotiator of the deal, explain it best on fox news yesterday. >> it is interesting, republicans four months ago would not give funding for ukraine, for israel, and for our southern border because we demanded changes in policy. so we actually locked arms together and said we're not gonna give you money for this. we want to change the law. now, it's interesting, a few months later, they're like, oh, just kidding. i actually don't want to change the law because it's election year. >> there you have it, from the mouth of a republican senator. and he is right. this isn't a game, and it shouldn't be. joining me now is democratic senator brian schatz of hawaii. he sits on the senate foreign relations committee. i want to start with this idea that republicans are treating these very real challenges, i mean, immigration reform, long outdated, obviously something

needs to be done about what's happening at the border. but they are treating it as a kind of again. you posted on twitter this, which caught my attention. i think if democrats were holding up funding for the defense of three allies, unless we got an unrelated thing, and then we said no to the very thing we demanded because our nominee told us to kill it, the media justifiably go thermal nuclear on us. you said it better than what i would say. give us a sense of how crazy the situation is in the senate right now. >> well, i remember, talking to a lot of the pro ukraine numbers of the republican conference. they came to us and said, look, we don't think we have the votes in the senate or the house unless we do a strong border bill. and we said great. the president is proposing, you know, 14 billion dollars, emergency supplemental to basically restore order at the border. they said no, we need policy changes. and i got some, you know, pretty heated conversations with some of the more reasonable republicans, saying why the hell -- excuse me, why the heck -- >> you can say hell.

>> i apologize. why can't we tie automatic policy priority to international policy priority. i can't think of an example in american history where one thing is dependent on the other in quite so obnoxious of away. but that was the deal, and so, chris murphy and others negotiated with james lankford, who got a reputation as one of the more conservative members of the entire senate, and especially on immigration. we had a very tough negotiation. and then, we wake up one morning, and realize that the thing they were asking for was really just an excuse to try to kill ukraine funding. now, there may still be a cohort of republicans in the senate at least, who care enough about ukraine, and care enough about a result on the border that they're gonna go through with this. but it just shows that the definition of conservatism at this point has flown out of the window, and it's basically whatever donald trump wants. >> it seems like what trump wants is to run on the border, to run on the border as being in crisis, as and not actually have a solution. don't you think that's a big part of the issue here? >> that's one hundred percent

what's going on. there is no substantive argument left for them, joe biden has gone i think further than a lot of progressives are comfortable with -- >> it's an imperfect bill. a lot of them don't like it. >> it makes me pretty uncomfortable. for ukraine, i'm prepared to swallow some of these provisions. and i certainly would not have written or agreed to under other circumstances. but here we are, trying to forge a bipartisan compromise because frankly, the fate of europe, the fate of the free world is at stake. and republicans woke up one morning, some of them went to mar-a-lago, some of them right at we. and now they're against the very thing they demanded. >> including doing something about the border. i mean, we just can't make it up in the storyline. it's hard to explain to the public, though, which is a challenge. i did want to ask you, obviously, there are decisions, discussions happening in the situation room, the white house, and the defense department haven't announced any specific steps yet on what they're going to do to respond to these strikes that killed three service members. but along the lines of the

seriousness or unseriousness in the political system, i did want to read you some of the things that some senators tweeted, immediately after these strikes. lindsey graham tweeted, hit iran now. hit them hard. john cornyn tweeted, target tehran. the only answer to these attacks must be devastating military retaliation against iran's terrorist forces. now, we all agree something needs to happen in response. but they all had this position for a long time. what's that about? >> i think the first thing is, look, this is a terrible tragedy. it is fortunate, although any loss of life is too much. it's fortunate and worth noting that we've lost fewer service members during the biden administration than we did during the trump administration. but again, any loss of life is too many lives lost. we have to retaliate. but we also have to manage the

potential for an escalation, and that is a very real risk in the region. it is a tinderbox. and i trust secretary austin, secretary blinken, and the president of the united states himself, to calibrate that retaliation. and to your point, lindsey, tom, john cornyn, these guys have been waking up every morning looking for an opportunity to engage in a kinetic action against iran since i got to senate 11 years ago. and that will never change. this is their latest reason for wanting to have a war. but i don't think that just because they are tweeting about it, that that's the right response. we're gonna have to respond, but we're gonna have to do so in a way that reduces rather than increases the risk of escalation. >> would you be comfortable if they struck iran within the borders? >> i don't think so, but i'd like to understand what they are thinking about and how to calibrate the response. i think the response has to be swift and successful, but i'm not here to say whether it should be in or out of iranian borders, or through a proxy. however they decide to do it. i wait to be briefed and we need to give them some decision space.

the last thing that the u.s. government needs is 535 potential commanders and chief all trying to out-of each other. >> we need to be brief, a novel thing you suggested there. i want to go around the world, but you do work on a number of issues. i do want to ask you, you gave a floor speech that stuck with me. i re-read it this morning. just about trump's basic claim that anything he does, is not susceptible to the law essentially, and this is kind part of this immunity argument we're waiting for a legal ruling on. talk to me a little bit about it, because sometimes people think it's all mired up in court. it's not about that. it's about a person who's commander in chief, who would have a number of things at his disposal, not being above the law. >> yeah, i think what's changed since the last trump term is now nobody can say they weren't warned. nobody can say this is just a rhetorical flourish, and he doesn't know the government, or you know, he's just a showman. take him seriously, not literally. i think we need to take him

absolutely literally. the other thing that's happened, he's now got white shoe law firms making these arguments in federal court. a judge asked his attorney, hold on, if the president ordered the murder of one of his political opponents using s.e.a.l. team six, would that be prosecutable? and they said no, not unless there was a successful impeachment in the house and a conviction in the senate. so what does that mean? it means that if the president of the united states can find 34 votes to acquit, he or she can use, not just violate any law, but use the power of the american military against his political opponents. so this is not just, wow, that guy is really nuts. the guy is promising to be an authoritarian and use the power of the government to maintain control. and i think we have to take that very seriously. >> listen to what he says. he's telling us what he wants to do. senator brian schatz, thank you so much for joining me here this evening. appreciate it. coming up, is taylor swift part of a vast left-wing conspiracy to brainwash the country? some of donald trump's closest

advisers seem to think so and i really wish i was joking. i'm not. i'll explain that, when we come back. ♪ ♪ ♪

so, prior to the 2018 midterms, taylor swift was notably and publicly apolitical, which kind of became a little bit of a thing after her silence during the 2016 presidential election, especially given the outcome. but then, in an instagram post in october of 2018, she publicly endorsed two

democratic candidates running in her home state of tennessee, and said she would vote against republican marcia blackburn, and she talked about this in her documentary as well. and for some conservatives, it was downright unconscionable that she would actually voice her opinions. how dare she! >> i'm sure taylor swift has nothing -- or doesn't know anything about her. and let's say that i like taylor's music about 25% less now. >> there is a big difference between these political statements by taylor swift and kanye. taylor swift was trying to preserve her reputation among her peers. >> taylor swift, i love your music. personally, kanye west, i'm a bigger fan of his. i wish you would have not done this. >> well, it turned out that last one did not age so well. put that aside, swift has become a little bit more vocal since those midterms. i mean, she advocated for lgbtq rights at the video music

awards in 2019. she endorsed biden for president in 2020. and in 2022, she posted some concerns about the impact of the decision to overturn roe v. wade, which was shared by millions of americans. but it's not like she is some rabid democratic activist. she's a very famous person who occasionally expresses her views, again, how dare she,! and encourages people to get engaged. last september, she encouraged her 272 million followers to register to vote. she didn't even tell them who to vote for. she just encouraged people to vote. that's a good thing, by the way, part of being a democratic process and all. in the meantime, when all of this is going on, her stardom continued to rise, of course. the star became a massive cultural phenomenon and she became a regular shop at kansas city chiefs football games watching her boyfriend, of course. and then in december, she was named time's person of the year for 2023. and that is when things started to get a little weird. after the time the cover came out, trump's advisor stephen miller tweeted, quote, what's happening with taylor swift is

not organic. okay, and over in right-wing media, things moved to complete meltdown mode around this time. >> neither the nfl or travis kelce needs taylor around, apparently the democrats do because make no mistake about it, taylor swift is clearly a tool. >> taylor swift is gonna come out in the presidential election, and she's gonna mobilize her -- fans. >> so, swift as a front for a covert political agenda. primetime obviously has no evidence. if we did, we would share it. but we are curious because of the popstar who endorsed biden is urging millions of her followers to vote. >> guys, i mean, are you all okay, seriously. take a walk, shake it off, as she would say. i mean, it's the right wing conspiracy goes, stick with me here, taylor swift might just be an operative for the democratic party. some, like jesse waters we just

saw there, would even call her a psy-op, that's right. and, jessie, i know you're on tv right now. but if you ever need a shoulder to cry on, i'm here for you, i'm here for you. that theory goes like this that they're all talking about, taylor's popularity is being propped up and wielded by the powers that be in order to unleash her fans, as democratic voters, and hand joe biden at 2024 presidential election. if it only work that way. first off, yes, let's all acknowledge that taylor swift absolutely has unbelievable influence, as one of the biggest stars on the planet. and i mean, why wouldn't joe biden want her endorsement? but where folks on the right make it super, super weird is by painting this as some sort of intricate, deep dark conspiracy. let's say former presidential candidate and trump surrogate vivek ramaswamy, who posted this yesterday after kansas city punched their ticket to the super bowl. quote, i wonder who is going to win the super bowl next month. and i wonder if there is a

major presidential endorsement coming from an artificially culturally propped up a couple this fall. i mean, what! what are you talking about? also, he's clearly not a football fan. i mean, it could be that the game was rigged, vivek ramaswamy, it could be, as part of the elaborate scheme to get joe biden more votes, it could be. or it might have been that baltimore had some bad fourth quarter turnovers. if you watch the game, not a football fan. but increasing shocking number of folks on the right, there's always a mastermind. there's always some larger big state, big institutions behind the curtain keeping conservatives and donald trump down. they will stare directly at conspiracy but never in the mirror. i've got a feeling our friend tim miller is gonna have some thoughts about all of this. and he joins us, next. ♪ ♪ ♪

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the thing about any conspiracy theory is that it's all about how you frame it. the information you choose to look at and the information you choose to ignore. take for example vivek ramaswamy's speculation that the kansas city chiefs are only in the super bowl in order to make travis kelce and taylor swift more popular in the lead up to an endorsement of joe biden. it's crazy every time i say it. and as tim miller put it, when travis kelce and the chiefs won the super bowl while trump was president, was that part of it, was it a deep state conspiracy happening right under trump's nose? have you noticed that as covid hit our shores? maybe he is on to something. joining me now is tim miller, writer-at-large for the bulwark,

and msnbc political analyst. okay, so, tim, this taylor swift thing is funny. it's crazy. we had a little fun with it. it also does reveal something about elements of the modern republican party and sort of what they get wrapped up in. talk to me a little bit about how this kind of, this theory, this run of the mill couple, celebrity endorsement potential, came into this big conspiracy theories? >> jen, you always have me on for the the heaviest topics. >> this does tell us a lot about the party. >> it does tell us a lot about the party, and it's pretty surprising that the democrats have got the nfl in the culture war. i wouldn't have predicted that years ago. i think that's what's telling, this deep distrust, right, and the distrust, as they call the triangle of doom, perpetrated by these conservative media types that you showed in the lead in.

it's about the politicians like vivek ramaswamy. and there is an ingrained kind of a grievance against elites among these republican voters. they want to believe it, they want to hear it. they buy into this complete nonsense. and so, as ridiculous as this sounds, this conspiracy makes no sense, right? how is this happening? joe biden is pulling the strings with roger goodale, like, dr. evil type layer, where they are deciding that the chiefs are gonna win the super bowl, when the chiefs have won four, five, six super bowls. absurd conspiracy theory. but there's a direct theme to that, voters believe the election was stolen, to these voters now believing that vaccines were, right? and it's because they don't trust now any of these institutions because they're told not to trust them. they feel like they're being left behind. and so, this is a way to act out. >> that's where the conspiracy

theories get dangerous. i do know more about football than vivek ramaswamy, so let me just acknowledge that. but, tim, i mean, you have been a long republican operative, i mean, how do you get the republican party out of the conspiracy theory driven universe? >> that's a tough question. i think that in the far right, there has always been, you know, we call it fever swamps, world net daily, i don't know if you remember that -- >> i do. >> the type of person that's on the extreme right is also pretty antisocial, not sociable, open to these conspiracy theories, the big government is out to get to you. don't write on me. that's always gonna be there. the question is, before now, we had responsible leaders, both in the party, no matter what you say about mitt romney, john mccain, george w. bush, no matter what you say about fox news even in the late 2000s, things that were not true that there were some spreading. there was some propaganda.

but the people in primetime, the people running the party, they tried to direct people towards reality. the opposite is happening now. donald trump in primetime fox, super charging the conspiracy. so, there is no way to bring people back on the brink without influential voices to pull them back to it. i'm sure that's not gonna happen this year with donald trump in the ticket. >> not to put a to fine point on it, but i'm going to. some of these people who are pushing these conspiracy theories, it's not just retailers, with travis kelce, of course it's a -- but others people who were in the inner circle, right? i mean, stephen miller, potentially vivek ramaswamy, these are people pushing and tweeting these things and pushing them out to the universe. how significant is that? it tells us a lot about what a trump trump could be like. >> this is critical, right? it's great because if we came along here, there was a twitter feed called end wokeness. it's random people, maga guys, 42 --

okay, this is not picking. stephen miller was one of the most influential advisers to the former president. the former president himself that is pushing a lot of these conspiracy theories. i do think it's significant. when you think about the times, we could talk about that the republicans, he gave a speech to that move. and he is sitting at that dinner table. it's bannon, it's matt gaetz, this crowd. you know, charlie kirk, stephen miller, it's the folks pushing the conspiracies are the ones we're gonna be closest. what i think that's the category that we saw with trump, which had some conspiratorial people, but also had some normal folks. come back and talk more about the young republicans there is a whole story there thank you for your time as always. that does it for me tonight, and the "the rachel maddow show" starts right now. hey, rachel. >> hey, jen, thanks very much. much appreciated, my friend. and thanks to you at home for joining us this hour.