outraged over how biden has conducted his middle east policy, the support he's given to israel. you're seeing some real signs of division there. biden's campaign manager was in michigan last friday for private meetings with various community leaders. several arab-american muslim community leaders, elected officials, got the invitation to meet and said, we talked to our community. there's no way we're going to meet with you. our community says, you know, nothing you can say, short of a cease-fire, is going to make us, you know, vote for biden, get into his corner here. >> real anger there. they need other paths of victory. the uaw joining us on "morning joe" a little later this morning. adam, thank you for being with us this morning. thanks to all of you for getting up "way too early" with us on this tuesday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. a jury in former president trump's defamation trial ordered him to pay $83 million in

damages. in a related story, classified documents just turned up on ebay. >> carroll appeared on "good morning america" to talk about the plans for the money. >> i want to give the money to something donald trump hates. >> congratulations, eric. >> aw, that's sad. >> welcome to "morning joe." it is tuesday, january 30th. that is a big day for me. i have a 28-year-old now. my daughter's birthday. >> happy birthday. >> i have a 28-year-old, wow. along with joe, willie, and me, we have the host of "way too early," jonathan lemire. former white house director of communications to president obama, jennifer palmeri. she and claire mccaskill are hosts of "how to win 2024." joe, just sit down. >> there he is. >> good to see you. you doing all right? >> good to see you.

>> happy to be here. >> i'm so glad you could be here. >> thank you. >> i want you to know, you're the most valued member of this team. >> i appreciate that. >> willie geist, so good to see you. thank you for being here. >> it's my honor, sir. >> you know the thing you did over there, up in -- >> all forgotten. >> it's good. >> willie? you're also the most valued member of the team. >> of course. >> good to see you. i want you to know, american democracy is riding on your shoulders, all right? >> i got it. >> you won't let us down. >> i got it, sir. we got it. >> okay, joe. >> what's up, richard? >> do i get a handshake? a hug? >> nothing. >> he's been president emeritus of the council on foreign relations, richard haass is with us. get a shot of richard, please. >> coming back. >> i'm from the south, i can't do that. it was all for effect, richard. thank you for your service to america. >> all right. willie, i don't even know. >> what's going on?

>> dramatic walk-in, like jonathan carson, come through the curtain. >> he's late. >> i need a multi-colored curtain. >> we need to start something. >> by the way, i will say, when i was a young guy, i didn't realize, willie, every night i got to see johnny carson, it was special. at the time, i was like, wait, we get to see this guy every night. kind of crazy. >> it is an event in, what, 25, 30 million people were watching "the tonight show" in those days. incredible. >> not as many as watch lemire. >> well, yeah. >> a little more than watch the nfl. >> unfair comparison given your numbers. >> the advantages we have at 5:00 a.m., it is significant. >> yeah. >> i mean. >> carson did his best. we try. >> he did. >> yeah, the nfl also did put up record ratings again this weekend. >> huge. >> i would guess the super bowl will do pretty well with the special guest in the crowd. >> nfl is pleased.

>> not unhappy with the metric, no. >> jen, i understand the president is going to deploy taylor swift at a strategic time. >> oh, my god. i mean, are you up on the whole conspiracy theories? >> oh, boy, no, but we might as well. every other network is, like, bathing in conspiracy theories. why can't we? >> should i walk through it? >> yeah. >> so taylor, the taylor swift/travis kelce romance is the concoction for her and the nfl is in on it, to draw, to give the chiefs a win against the ravens and the others, so that she can be at the super bowl. he can be the big star. together, they can endorse joe biden. >> sorry to interrupt, who did this, the deep state? >> willie, that is unclear. we don't know. we don't know who orchestrated all this. >> forgive me. >> maga, there was a segment on

fox about this last night. they're encouraging maga supporters to become san francisco 49er fans because that's how -- >> wait, what? hold on, san francisco? >> kansas city is in on -- apparently, kansas city, missouri, is in on the deep state, the left wing. >> voting for republicans every, like, four years? >> yeah. now, san francisco is going to stop this from happening by beating them. by beating the chiefs. >> you have to tap dance pretty hard, you know, in some of these places. i remember after the e. jean carroll verdict came in, $83 million, just because mika likes to be irritated, she turned over to fox. >> no, it was hilarious. joe biden had a hard hat on backwards, literally. that's what they were on during the breaking news of this epic verdict. $83.3 million, defamation damages against a former

president facing the civil fraud verdict judgment, you know, in a week or so, possibly crippling him financially. but they have joe biden with a hard hat on backwards. >> of course, a hard hat, it was like this thing where they started the conspiracy theory, right? >> it was a sign to taylor swift, probably. >> it was pathetic. >> there was no conspiracy theory. ask lamar jackson. >> it's all -- i think it may happen, so they're trying to prevent it, if it happens, kelce and swift come out for biden, they've explained why. >> the post game, travis kelce, right before the endorsement, will propose to taylor swift, and they'll be newly engaged and endorse joe biden together. >> i like that. >> that's just -- >> this is a complete waste of time. >> i'm still hurting from the lions. >> i know. >> come on.

>> devastating. >> it really is. >> the city deserved it. those fans deserved it. you're up 24-7 at the half. they looked so good in the first half. then the 49ers, i guess, woke up at halftime. the lions kind of lost their magic a little bit, some tough calls, the fourth down call. people wonder about that. that's the way he coaches. dropped passes. >> a key fumble. >> yeah. >> that's the first time there. the question is, do they learn from it? there are a lot of teams in super bowl history that lost and went back and won the next year. then you've got the buffalo bills. >> long offseason for the bills and the ravens. >> not the giants. >> it's only an offseason for the giants. >> that's right. >> mika, are we ever going to get to the news or what? >> yeah, willie will start us off. >> is willie going to do this? >> he's got it. >> let you get settled. [ laughter ] >> i need my smoking jacket.

>> you do, and a cocktail. let's dive right in this morning. the department of defense has identified now the three army reserve soldiers killed by a drone strike at a u.s. base in jordan. they are 46-year-old sergeant william jerome rivers. 24-year-old specialist kennedy sanders. and 23-year-old specialist breoona moffett. the soldiers were deployed to the middle east as part of a combined task force targeting isis. according to "the new york times," they were part of a team trained to build roads and landing fields. they were killed when a drone packed with explosives struck near the barracks where they were sleeping. in a statement, president biden said the attack was carried out by radical iran-backed militant groups operating in syria and iraq. the attack was the third on that logistic support base in the past six months, according to two pentagon officials. neither of the previous attempts caused casualties. officials suggest the drone may have passed through u.s. air defenses because the base was

expecting an american drone to return around the same time, and it did not recognize the attack drone as a threat. some officials tell nbc news the drone's low altitude also may have been a factor. vowing to retaliate, president biden met with members of his national security team in the white house situation room yesterday to discuss options. meanwhile, secretary of state antony blinken warned of what may come next. >> we will respond. we will respond strongly. we will respond at a place and time of our choosing. obviously, i'm not going to telegraph what we might do in this instance or get ahead of the president, but i can, again, tell you, as the president said yesterday, we will respond. that response could be multi-leveled, come in stages, and be sustained over time. we do not seek conflict or war with iran, but we have and we

will continue to defend our personnel and to take every action necessary to do that. >> richard, we heard in a statement from the president yesterday. we heard from john kirby at the podium, as well, iran, iran, iran. they're clear where this came from, who backed the effort. you have some republican senators saying, attack tehran. go to the borders of tehran. others are suggesting there are other ways to go about this. what are the options on the table to retaliate for the president? >> you have a menu of options. the sense is you have to do something. the menu goes to slightly increased, economic sanctions or enforce better existing economic sanctions, probably at the low end, willie. i think in the middle is to go after some of the iranian-backed groups out of iraq, syria, specifically the group that launched this drone. there are irgc troops inside

syria and iran, maybe go after them. the high end is going after iran itself. certain people are calling for it. i understand the argument, but that would be a major potential escalation. it's not just that the united states has its hands full in the middle east. we have our hands full around the world. we've got to ask ourselves if the entire strategic logic of the last decade or so has been to dial down american involvement in the middle east, to free us up initially to deal with china and north korea. >> richard, when they're killing americans, when they continue to target americans, when it is always funded by iran, we're not waiting for iran to declare war against us. they already have. this has been our pose since 1979. we're not going to go into iran. we're not going to do this, but we'll do that. for some reason, i don't know why, but it's one of the editorials that survived. it was from 2008, and it was talking about george w. bush being weak on iran.

that editorial in the "wall street journal" has been written for every administration since 1979. ronald reagan tried to do deals with iran. we all keep trying to do deals with iran. when are we going to make iran understand that attacking united states soldiers and killing them is just not worth it for them? >> look, joe, there's things we could do against iran. we could go after ships. we could go after iranian soldiers. >> why don't we? >> again, the question is, we have to play chess here. we have to think several steps ahead. do we think -- >> they've kicked our chess board over. >> i don't think so. >> they're killing americans. >> there is nothing new about the attack that happened the other day. >> that's the problem, there is nothing new with iran attacking and killing americans. >> i'm not making their case, but think it through. do we want to have a prolonged set of exchanges with iran and their proxies, do we want them to do more? is that what we're looking for

in the region and globally? >> that's what i've been looking for in iran since 1979. >> what makes you think it'd be decisive? what makes you think that the united states right now could do things with iran that would reduce the threat and strategically leave us better off in three days or three weeks? >> you think if we go in and we go after their oil infrastructure and warn them that more is to come, do you think that doesn't deter them? this is about deterrence, richard. what have we done to deter iran from killing three more americans tonight? >> one thing i would do -- >> what have we done? >> what have we done to deter iran? >> from doing it again tonight. >> we have not. >> what if we go on the ship iran has, the spy ship, board it, strip it of its intel information, as james stavridis said, and sink it, bury it at the bottom of the red sea, and

say, "come after us again, things will get worse." >> okay, that's different than attacking iran itself. let's do this -- >> it's okay, sinking their ship. >> let's think about measured escalation. let's go after iranian proxies, much more than we have. let's go after iranian troops in places like syria or iraq. we could go after specific iranian vessels. what i'm saying, let's do a lot of things, joe, before we do a direct war against iran proper. the oil situation, if you want to go after that, do you necessarily want to do that to oil markets? you may. you may decide it is important enough and necessary. all i'm saying is, we have to think this through. it's the day after, the day after, the day after. >> iran gets all their funding from oil. that's how they fund hezbollah. that's how they fund hamas. that's how they fund the houthis. that's how they fund all of these terror organizations that kill americans in their name.

i'm just wondering, what is -- what would the biden administration's problem be with going in and take out some of their oil infrastructure and just sending the message? you know, keep going. it gets a lot worse. >> higher gas prices. >> i don't care. dead americans? >> i think that -- i mean, well, richard has laid out some of the possible consequences, but anytime you're doing anything that's going to mess with oil markets, higher gas prices are -- can be an existential threat to a presidency. >> right. well, okay, military targets, what's the problem with military targets? >> i have new reporting on this this morning, about the menu, and it is much what richard said. they have not taken off the table going into iran itself, but that's not the favorite option. more likely, they'll hit other

targets in other countries, and naval vessels at play in the sea. it's a balancing act. they want to hit iran and hit them hard. three americans are dead. they want to do something that would act as a deterrent to prevent iran from doing it again. that said, they don't want to escalate this into a greater conflict. >> do they understand the more americans that die, the more the escalation is going to be cranked up quickly? there will come a time when this administration and this congress has no choice but to go into iran if they continue to sit back while americans get killed. >> the u.s. -- the biden white house believes, the administration believes that, at a certain point, iran will blink. tehran doesn't want a full-out war with the united states. >> what have we done to make them blink? that's what i'm asking. >> to this point, clearly not. >> why? >> officials in the biden administration acknowledge the

deterrence policy hasn't been effective yet. >> why have we not deterred iran? >> this administration act deliberately and carefully when they use military force. even with the houthi strikes, they've only responded to 10% of what the houthis have done to this point. >> why? >> they're fearful of a wider conflict. it has to reach a threshold, when americans are injured or a ship is damaged, that's when they strike back on the houthis. here, and i'm told the response will begin potentially as early as today, next couple of days, and it'll come in waves. it is going to be a sustained retaliation from the united states that they believe will be enough of a deterrence. if not, they'll up it further. it'll be a ladder. they'll do it in stages. >> that was the nature of tony blinken's comments. we're thinking of the idea of a response as a single action. what it really is is going to be a sustained state of actions. could be different places, different sources. >> could be a week or more. >> it is messaging with iran. to me, what is interesting is

the drone strike that had this tragic effect was not fundamentally new or different. so it'll be interesting. the iranians probably didn't count on this result. whether now they basically pull themselves in a little bit simply because they don't want things to go down this path. this regime does not need a confrontation with the united states. >> so what are they doing then? >> i keep hearing this, willie, but it's what we heard after october 7th. oh, the iranians, they didn't really know what was going on. you know, people, even the trump administration, "we've checked intel sources. the iranians were really surprised." >> the challenge is netanyahu. >> iranians don't want this. everything that's happened on october 7th and since october 7th has been brought to you by iran. everything. everything! we keep sitting back going, "what can we do?

what can we do?" like we're great britain in 1959. for f sake, what can we do? we can -- i'm sorry, willie. did i wake up in luxembourg? >> beautiful part of the world. >> i love luxembourg. >> if you're going after iran, you'd rather have the united states. >> point taken. >> for sure. to joe's point, richard, for a country that claims in iran it doesn't want an escalation or a war, it seems to be attacking american and other western interests a lot. if we look at it from their point of view, what are they up to here? what do they want? they're going to get a retaliation from the united states here. >> what iran wants to do is use its proxies, one step removed, to get the united states out of the middle east. they want the united states forces out of iraq, which i rain increasingly dominates, forces out of syria, essentially to

complete the civil war. iran dominates lebanon. they're looking to essentially dominate big chunks of the middle east. they have hamas and hezbollah. >> what started all this? it was saudi arabia. it was saudi arabia getting closer to israel, doing the deal, and -- >> let's talk about october 7th. >> again, everything -- these are just the trailers from october the 7th. all of this is in reaction to october the 7th. >> right. joe, my point is, there are things we want to do against iran. i'm just saying, iran has a lot of tools. the idea that we can somehow deal them a decisive blow is unlikely, and we've got to say, given what's going on in europe, given what's going on potentially in asia, how much of our resources, how much of our time do we want to devote to this part of the world? again, we have spent the last several decades devoting a disproportionate amount of

american lives, dollars, and times to the greater middle east. >> you've said that. you've said that consistently. you have people like, well, the trump administration who thought they could do these great middle east plans without the palestinians. >> minor omission. >> we can't move on from the middle east until we take care of the palestinians. we have to have a two-state solution. here, history finds us again. >> 100%. that's one of the tools that has been missing, is exactly the one you put your finger on, the diplomatic tool and the idea we could walk away from the middle east without a palestinian dimension was clearly a major fallacy. that is what i think we are coming up against now. the problem is, we have neither an israeli nor palestinian partner. that's the problem. >> >> lemire, i have here in my hand some documents that suggest that mr. haass in retirement is open to having a seaside villa in iran.

[ laughter ] >> that is why he is speaking this way. >> all right. still ahead -- >> i will show you the evidence. >> good place, tehran. ahead on "morning joe" -- >> satisfied exchange right here. >> bringing it together. nikki haley again stands up for american juries, the rule of law. we'll show you what she said in defense of the verdict against donald trump in his most recent defamation case. plus, our next guest says a new, powerful, well-funded political movement is rising fast in america. jim vandehei of "axios" will join us to talk about the emergence of the so-called tech techno optimists. >> i don't like them. i don't know who they are, but i already do not like them. also ahead, the president of the united auto workers union will join us to talk about the organization's endorsement of president biden's -- >> we like him. >> -- re-election campaign. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.

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the biden campaign is planning a first of its kind fundraiser with president biden and former presidents clinton and obama. three presidents that all have classic lines. bill clinton's -- >> we can seize this moment. >> there was obama's. >> yes, we can. >> and, of course, joe biden's. >> i got hairy legs. that -- that burn blond in the sun. >> all right. 2024 presidential candidate nikki haley is standing by -- >> wait, that clip. >> i know, that was funny. >> it reminds us, and he needs to give some royalties to david letterman, but david letterman

did, "every night with george w. bush," and it was classic. >> that was great, too. >> oh, yeah. >> maybe w. trying to open the door in china, bouncing the basketball. >> you know who loved it? george w. bush. >> that's the best. >> back to politics. nikki haley standing by comments she made supporting the jury in writer e. jean carroll's $83 million defamation verdict against donald trump. take a look at what she had to say on fox news yesterday. >> you're taking some new fire from donald trump's campaign and supporters for what you said about the e. jean carroll case on "meet the press" yesterday. the president was found liable in that case. a jury awarded her $83.3 million. here's what you said when you were asked about it. >> i absolutely trust the jury. i think that they made their decision based on the evidence. >> so "the new york times" wrote an article around that in which it said in part, quote, "four weeks before what could be the

decisive republican primary in south carolina, ms. haley is trying to navigate an extremely narrow and treacherous path. finding a way to diminish from trump's hold on her party's electorate without decisively turning conservative voters against her the way they have destroyed other trump critics." how do you navigate that path, governor? >> it cracks me up that people try to overanalyze. i just tell the truth as i see it. i think there have been politics played with prosecutors that have brought on some of these cases. i think there has been politics played even with the judges. but i think american juries still get it right. they listen to the evidence. they make the decision based on the evidence. i do still trust that any american sitting on a jury, i trust they're making the right decision. >> we have to. that is the center of our judicial system. you have to trust fellow voters in a jury pool. sometimes they seem to get it right, and sometimes they seem

to get it wrong. but you have to have faith in the system, that more often than not, they get it right. it's a constitution. >> compare it to republican senators who backed trump last spring after he was found liable for sexual assault and defamation. in the words of marco rubio at that time, quote, that jury is a joke. the whole case is a joke. >> jen, can you imagine that? >> really? >> i guess we can imagine six years later, but any united states senator, and they do it, they will trash any institution that checks donald trump's lust for absolute power. in this case, marco rubio called a jury a joke. marco rubio, who wasn't in the courtroom, didn't hear any of the evidence, at no time have the judge's instructions, didn't know what the law was in that particular case, and, again, attacked the judge, attack the jury system, attack american

democracy, attack whatever it takes to lift up donald trump. >> yeah, and trump saying it is part of a biden witch hunt, though it is wholly independent of biden. in this case, filed in 2019 before joe biden was president. i think it is important that -- i mean, haley walks a fine line. she never criticizes trump at the foundation. she'll never go to the conduct. >> right. >> she won't go that far. she went go to the conduct on the january 6th cases, the mar-a-lago case, or the e. jean carroll case. but to defend the jury, that's like defending the election. that's defending, you know, the process. that is actually an important thing. it is important for republicans to hear this. it is important for republicans and swing voters and independents to hear a republican, you know, attack trump and for a republican to uphold the jury system. >> richard, it was always conservatives who were supposed

to defend institutions, going back to edmund burke, who talked about how, you know, radical zealots could tear down an institution in a day that was built over time. here, you have the same people that were running around defending institutions in the late '60s and early '70s, that were under attack from the far left, now they're attacking the same institutions that are foundational to this republic. >> that's what is stunning about it. the idea of what nikki haley is saying is in any way remarkable? >> exactly. >> this is pure american classic conservative, trial by jury. it is an institution. that's what conservatives used to believe in. the republican party has so strayed from conservatism, it's become a populist, personalist party. this is the consequence. >> think about how dangerous the consequences will be now that we

have a texas governor -- just saying -- >> supreme court. >> -- i'm going to ignore a supreme court ruling. we talk about the dangers that donald trump poses. that's one of them. donald trump, if he gets into power again, he is going to be orban. he is going to -- you know, i don't think he is going to try to do what netanyahu is trying to do in israel. i think he is going to go straight there and ignore the supreme court's ruling, and then we have a constitutional crisis of the first order. >> republicans suggesting they get to pick and choose which supreme court decisions they want to abide by or not is dangerous. we'll see in the year ahead as the trump legal cases move forward and decisions come down against him, we'll see them reject those and move forward. even before trump were to get into office, and to your point, were he elected again, i think it'll go out the window. he'll simply do what he wants.

this is the democracy argument that president biden is trying to make. the biden team thinks it is important. to mika's point, republicans are hearing this from nikki haley. that is the bare minimum. nikki haley is doing the bare minimum, a low bar to clear, but she cleared it, and she's doing it on places like fox where republican viewers who love trump are hearing it maybe for the first time. they're not going to listen to joe biden say it. >> it's a commentary on the republican party, stopping to congratulate nikki haley for sticking up for the jury system in america. here we are. we're learning more about the border security provisions in the bipartisan senate deal negotiators have been working on for months. two sources tell nbc news the legislation would grant the federal government new authority to shut down the border once crossings reach a certain threshold. in addition, there would be new restrictions on how approved migrants are released into the country. the senate team hopes to make the text of the bill public this week, but republicans continue to actively trash a bill they

have not read. former president trump is claiming a border bill is not even needed. speaker mike johnson posted on x yesterday, the bill is a non-starter in the house. many house republicans echoed that sentiment yesterday. >> joe biden has the power to address this unprecedented crisis tomorrow by reversing the 64 executive actions he took to effectively open our southern border. >> the president has the ability right now, the power to stop it, 212f. he could use that power. undo many of the orders tom referenced. but he chooses not to because this is all a sham, and it is purposeful. it is a purposeful effort to dilute our society and undermine our way of life, to destroy western civilization. >> biden is salivating at the prospect of staggeringly horrible senate compromise bill to enshrine that this ongoing disaster continues. you never give in when our national security is constantly being threatened, but a

traitorous actions of the executive branch. >> the traitorous actions? >> they're the ones -- >> i thought they wanted this. it is confusing. >> now they don't want it. >> they care so much about not caring at all. >> they throw around words like -- by the way, i'm sorry, going back to edmund burke, what was he writing about, the radicalism, the zealotry of the french revolution? you know what the zealots did? they accused everybody of being zealots and being traitors, then they'd take them to the guillotine. everybody was a traitor. here, these people are calling joe biden a traitor for doing what joe biden has heard them saying they wanted him to do all along. in oklahoma, poor james langford, one of the most conservative guys who criticizes biden almost every day on twitter, you see him, and he's put together the most

conservative bill on the border? a generation. everybody says that that's serious. now, you have these clowns going out there saying he's traitorous? you have hugh hewitt, who was for it but now he is against it. he was for it but now he is against it because donald trump is against it. newt gingrich goes on fox news last night and says, "this is the worst thing that's ever, ever, ever, ever happened. it's the dumbest, stupidist this, that, and the other," all because donald trump one day -- they all liked the bill, and then donald trump said, "don't pass the bill. it might hurt me politically." now -- >> errr, turn the car around. >> -- dangerous, traitorous. how pathetic. if someone told me in congress to do that, i'd have two words for them, and the second would

be "off," and i would keep walking. i wouldn't break a stride. most of the people i served with were that way, too, which again begs the question, who are these cowards that will completely comply with everything dear leader says? >> is there anything they wouldn't do for him? you have to ask the question. >> nothing. there's nothing! >> mike johnson has said publicly on tv in interviews, "yes, i talk to the former president almost every day." >> yeah. >> "he's telling us not to do this." so what we've been clambering for for generations and in recent months, all of a sudden, we're not for it. >> they won't fund israel because donald trump doesn't want the bill to go through. they're allowing vladimir putin to beat ukraine. he now has the advantage over there. because donald trump wants vladimir putin to win. mike johnson has gone right along, voting against every bit

of funding all along for ukraine. where are the pro-freedom, pro-ukraine republicans? i haven't heard about chairman mccaul about this. does he want the ukrainians to keep dying, to keep getting pounded by the russian invaders? is this his legacy? this is the house's legacy, by the way. this is the house's legacy right now. i hope mccaul and i hope the rest of them have a great time telling their children and their grandchildren that vladimir putin was back on his heels, but he rushed through and finally got ukraine, then he started going to the bakan states and across the rest of eastern europe, all because they were more afraid of donald trump than they were for freedom.

it's really just sickening. >> the leadership in ukraine now just says out loud, "the future of this war is in the hands of the united states congress." that's it, full stop. it's up to them, says ukraine. let's bring into the conversation the co-founder of axios, jim vandehei. let's go back to the immigration deal for a second. as joe said, senator langford has the biden administration agreeing to things that would have been unthinkable just a few months ago on immigration policy. they feel like they have the best available deal and that the house should take it while they can. what's your sense? does this have any chance of, first, getting out of the senate, because all of a sudden, it is falling apart on the republican side, but in the house, we heard from a host of republicans it is going nowhere. >> it has a realistic chance of getting out of the senate. i agree with you that it is one of the most conservative, if not the most conservative bill that we've seen maybe in our lifetime in terms of clamping down on what's going to happen at the

southern border. it has no chance whatsoever being signed into law, though president biden made it clear he'd sign it. it's trump's party, and trump is opposed to it. he has his executioner, and that's johnson and the leadership in the house. they made it clear it's dead. it's dead. i don't see any chance it'd bass. >> jen, is this something democrats can use against republicans, for killing the best border deal? >> yeah. you know, on friday, the president said he'd sign this bill. he said he'd shut down the -- give him the authority to shut down the border, and he'll do it the day he signs the bill. the people who have no credibility are the house republicans, right? >> yeah. >> you have senate republicans with credibility. you had mitt romney come out and say out loud what happened in the senate republican caucus, the leader does not want to move this bill because trump doesn't want it. you've had house republicans say the same thing out loud. you've had biden say, "i will do

this." this is maybe his biggest vulnerability, president biden's biggest vulnerability in the election, and trump and the house republicans have mismanaged this in the way that they've handed him the ability, finally, to break through about what they have been doing on the border, what they're willing to do. it's not going to convince trump supporters, but it'll convince swing voters. >> he needs to go to the border. stand at the border, and he needs to say, "i want to shut down the border." >> everything he has done -- >> donald trump won't let me. i want to shut down the border with a bill that republicans call the toughest border security bill ever. i want to shut down the border. donald trump won't let republicans do it. >> he needs to go to the border and do that, and he needs to go to the knesset and have the same conversation with the israelis. both cases, joe biden has to confront the opposition and use the power of the bully pulpit.

that is the oval office. that's what's left now. in both cases, he has implacable people who won't go along. >> jim, tell us about these tech techno-optimists. >> what is this? >> micro dosers? >> i'm happy to illuminate for you. >> okay. >> i don't love the name techno-optimist, but i think you have to look at what's been happening with that group of people, whether it is mark andreasen, ben horowitz, elon musk, david sacks, bill ackman. you have a large group of people who helped, i think, bring rfk to life, raised money for him, made him a somewhat formidable third-party candidate. it's the way that ron desantis got into the campaign initially. david sacks was helping him out. they made the announcement on x, on twitter. they now have a platform. if you look at -- step back, and you may love or hate twitter, x as it is known, but it very much

went from mainstream media group think to very much this group of tech folks who have a clear ideology, which is what they'd say is anti-dei, anti-woke, anti-elite conventional thought. they'd say very much it is optimism around technology. >> it is kind of like this bro culture, and it is sort of like this libertarian bro culture. they hate the media. they hate, you know, government stepping in unless they need billions of dollars from the government. >> yup. >> i mean, it's a bunch of bros that have a ton of money and don't want anybody telling them anything, right? is that a good way to -- >> it is mainly white, middle-aged men, so definitely bros. i would not underestimate the number, though. you look at podcasting. >> i'm not, no. >> look at joe rogan, friedman, there's a -- the network is real. i think that there's -- obviously, i think their following is largely white

working class men. do they matter in elections? seems like they kind of do, right? >> yeah. >> especially in swing states. >> yeah, no, i'm not underestimating. i'm just saying -- jen, you're a big fan. >> listens all the time. >> maga and a tight t-shirt. >> and a tight black t-shirt. it's kind of like donnie. >> too much. >> he still does. >> coming on soon. >> it's out of the peter thiel school, and they all look up to elon musk. they think elon is, like, king. they think he is really cool. they hate the media. again, they hate anybody that tries to hold anybody to account out there. >> yeah, and there's a sports overlap. >> yeah. >> joe rogan, aaron rodgers and all that. you know, they do matter because this is a trump base in some ways. i'm not sure -- i mean, how much

influence have they really had? they got ron desantis into the race. how did that turn out? rfk is polling at whatever rfk is polling at but how much -- >> vivek. >> i mean, they like a lot of things that get going but never quite take off. >> co-founder and ceo of "axios," -- >> okay. >> by the way, jim, thank you. we wanted you the morning after the packers had an extraordinary showing in the playoffs. man, you know, the nfc north has gone from, like, one of the weakest divisions to the one to watch next year. it is going to be great, huh? >> i'm with you on the lions. for one day, the only day of my life i was a lions fan, i actually wish they would have won but whatever. packers' future is bright. we have jordan love. we'll be all right. >> the bears coming right behind you. the bears are looking good, too. >> joe, the bears suck. [ laughter ] >> ceo of "axios."

jim vandehei. >> straight from the frozen fields of green bay, jim vandehei. >> we will end on that note. coming up, former president trump tries to take credit for the booming stock market, but the biden white house isn't having it. steve rattner is standing by at the southwest wall. >> wow. >> to explain what's really going on. >> look at that. >> the u.s. economy. >> look at that. >> "morning joe" is coming right back. >> wow.

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everybody is talking about taylor swift, right? >> well, because thanks to taylor swift, we all know who travis kelce is now. >> oh, god. >> no! >> stop that. >> i mean, i had no idea who he was. >> by the way, that is a funny meme. >> yes. >> she tells me about the funny memes. >> he's a big star now. >> exactly. by the way, he had a kind of

rough season. you know, kind of halfway through, he's dropping the ball. you're like, is this because taylor is up there? it's too much pressure. >> come on. >> boy, he was -- no, i'm serious, he was off his game about halfway through the year. >> maybe it is his newfound stardom. >> was there distractions? boy, man, he was freaking focused. >> huge in the game. >> people were going, okay, maybe the greatest tight end of all time. >> that's not true. >> right! >> it is rob gronkowski. but there is a similarity here. the chiefs were strategic. kelce is older and breaking down. i think theyly paced him in the regular season to unleash him in the playoffs. kelce stepped up. he was terrific this weekend. >> terrific. i don't know why t.j. is showing the end of the lions' game. it is like he wants to break my heart bit by bit, every day.

>> okay. >> we need to do a show live. >> from detroit? >> from detroit. >> i love going to detroit. >> lions game. >> let's do it. >> i would love that. a lot of exciing things happen in the city. >> the draft is in detroit, you know. >> is the draft in detroit? >> in april, people. you'll recall, i am the nfl analyst for "morning joe." naturally, i'm locked in on this, i guess. hotel rooms and everything. >> whoa. >> april 25th through 27th. just saying. >> what's the boston marathon? >> think we can get a -- >> we're going to that. >> dan campbell? >> oh, yeah. >> we want dan and a couple others. >> the commish. >> of course. >> if it doesn't conflict with the boston mare ton. >> it doesn't. >> are you running the boston marathon? >> my daughter is. not the one whose birthday it is today. donald trump is trying to -- >> i'm thinking about running the marathon.

you want to run snit. >> last-minute thing. >> i'll do the rosy race. >> i'll have a smoke, run the first mile. >> okay. >> get on the subway. get off the last mile. one more smoke, finish. come on! >> that was a bold move by rosie, to step off the train and waltz across the finish line. >> you know who won that year? >> why do you know this? >> of course you don't. >> right. >> but you know who rosie ruiz is, kids. take a lesson from that. throw it away immediately. donald trump is trying to take credit for the booming u.s. stock market that we're seeing under president joe biden. >> he said the stock market would crash. >> he wants it to so he can be the savior. >> he said in 2020, if joe biden is the president, it'll crash. >> it's not doing that. on a day when the dow and s&p

closed at record highs, the former president said in all caps that -- >> we're not going to read this. >> blah, blah, blah, blah. you don't get it both ways, big boy. >> he has to do something with his fingers because he can't defame e. jean carroll anymore. >> come on. >> the biden campaign responded saying, quote, "thank you, donald, for lifting up today's strong economic news, but on this planet, joe biden is the president." >> hear, hear. >> even critics of the biden administration are admitting how well the economy is doing. "the washington post" laid out the case that the united states had the world's best recovery post pandemic. on fox business yesterday, steve forbes was asked about the headline. >> are they right? is america -- does america now have the best recovery? >> well, yes. >> it does? >> the rest of the world is doing so poorly. germany is now the weakest developed country in the world.

phenomenal. one big reason, because of their green policies which tripled the price of electricity. britain, the same thing, barely registering any growth. japan, dead in the water. china, we know the problems there. the key thing is, the reason the economy is doing so well is government spending. how long can you keep that up? ask argentina where eventually thaty that leads you. the thing about the crazy way they do gdp, government spending is a plus. that's why the soviet union looked so good for so long and east germany looked so good for so long, is government spending counts as a positive thing, like private investment. that's nonsense. >> i'll bet the next time kjp or the president takes any questions of any kind on the economy, that "washington post" article is going to be right there, front and center. we've got the best recovery. that's a pretty good political slogan in an election year. >> well, because we have the best recovery. i'm not exactly -- i know steve. i love steve. i'm not exactly sure the middle

part, what he was saying after he said, yeah, we have the best -- but we have a best recovery, the best post-covid recovery. we got into a little trouble because donald trump had two massive covid spending bills that dwarfed joe biden's. >> after he kept covid from the country. >> after there was way too much money there. >> people died. >> yeah, we have the best economy in the world. i mean, ask anybody. you can ask, like, the most conservative writers for "the wall street journal." they're saying it on the editorial page. why? because we have the best economy in the world since donald trump left office. let's bring in right now -- should i go over and talk to him? >> please don't. stay right here in your chair. >> i'm a rambling man today. >> steve rattner's got it. he's going to handle it from here on, okay?

steve rattner. >> hi, steve. >> morning. >> what's going on with the economy? >> what's going on with the economy? >> i think joe should come over here and do my charts for me. >> okay. >> no. >> he'd be much better than i would. >> i want to touch the screen. >> like vanna. >> steve, take it away. do your thing. >> the idea of steve forbes comparing us to argentina and the soviet union is so utterly and completely ridiculous. we have, in fact, the best economy in the world. we have it for a whole variety of reasons, including a lot of the policies that were put in place in the last year over joe biden. so let's take a look at economic growth. many people have talked, including myself, had worried about recession as we tried to wring out inflation. it's not what we've gotten. we have incredibly strong growth that exceeded estimates in every quarter. grew 3% last year, a healthy rate of growth. perhaps the best news for joe biden is that the idea of a recession has come out of the economists' forecasts for the most part. while growth might be a bit slower this year than it was in

the past, it is still strong, healthy, and consistent. on the growth side, the economy is looking really good. obviously, we worried an enormous amount about inflation. inflation has well out performed in the positive sense of coming down what i think almost any of us thought was possible. you can see -- and this is core inflation. this takes out energy and food, which tend to bound around a lot, and looks at the core of the economy. this is what the fed looks at when it sets interest rates. you can see core inflation got up to 6%. that was unfortunate. variety of reasons. but the drop in it has been really almost faster than anything i can remember in my time doing this. in the last two quarters, the core inflation rate was down to 2%. that is the fed's target. >> steve, that's one of the fastest drops you've seen. what caused that? >> a lot of it was the fact the government spent money, and it is not what steve forbes was

saying, about how government spending is in the gdp and all this stuff. what happened was, the government leaned in, variety of programs, the infrastructure bill, the ira for the inflation reduction act, and so forth, and it created jobs and got the economy going. we have this incredibly fast rate, for example, of production of alternative energy sources right now, solar, wind, and all that creates jobs. that's a lot of what has been going on here. >> let's talk about the jobs. talk about how the job growth just keeps going on and on. >> sure. again, the great american jobs machine, as we like to call it, has been chugging along. you can see down here the 2000 to 2019 average, donald trump's average. we have exceeded that in most months. we've also exceeded this little green stuff, the months in which we've exceed what the economists thought was going to happen. it's regularly outperformed so we've had this steady, consistent jobs growth. we'll have another number on friday. looks like it'll be 175,000 new

jobs again created. unemployment rate is down below 4%. that is long considered full employment. we're doing great on that front. the part that, again, many people don't appreciate, and, look, inflation was worse than we wanted it to be, worse than we hoped it would be, but nonetheless, people have continued to actually outpace inflation. in 2004, the average worker's income went up by 1.6% more than inflation. in other words, real wage increases. you look down here at the 2017 to 2019 average. >> right. >> call that the donald trump era. you had barely any, like 0.1 of a percent in growth in wages after inflation. what also isn't on this chart but an important fact is wages are growing faster for those at the bottom than those at the top for the first time in a very long time. income inequality is still huge,

but it is narrowing. >> steve, talk about consumer confidence, if you will. i think that's another thing that steve may have overlooked. the fact that this is not an economy that has been growing because the federal government has been pumping cash out. it's been the consumer-driven economy, and consumers are more confident now than they have been in quite some time. look at the numbers, man. they're going up quickly. >> look,conundrums for the biden administration, as you were talking about, is why is this good news not reaching the american people? why are american people still so pessimistic about the economy even in light of everything i said? well, there is a delayed reaction often in this kind of a thing. people have to process the numbers. they have to see them repeated. they have to believe they're sustainable. again, for the first time, you are seeing this enormous jump in consumer confidence. i think this is the largest jump in 30 years in a month in consumer confidence from the american -- from the university of michigan.

what's interesting is that democrats and republicans feel differently. democrats are much more optimist optimistic about the economy. republicans less so. in total, the number jumped up. if you want to see a fun thing, back when trump was president, it was the other day around. the day biden got elected, essentially, the views of the economy switched between republicans and democrats. now, we haven't seen this yet, and i think we will, in the polling data about right track/wrong track, the biden approval ratings and things like that, but there are polls out there that start to show this. this is a poll where people were asked, is the economy getting worse or better? you can see here in the last couple months, it has started to turn back up again. you can see that the getting worse category has started to churn down again. with some luck, this is a leading indicator of how consumer and public opinion may shift in the months ahead as we have it. one last point, because of that

low inflation rate, the fed is pretty much -- not pretty much, is presumed to be done raising interest rates. they have a meeting next week. they'll probably not increase interest rates. indeed, over the next few months, the market is expecting several interest rate cuts. president biden could go into the election with a tailwind from interest rates, ie, with interest rates coming down, which is good news for mortgage seekers and for consumer credit borrowers and for many, many americans. >> all right. steve rattner. >> thank you, steve. >> at the big wall, the southwest wall. >> well done. >> the southwest wall. thank you so much, steve. we appreciate it, as always. >> all right. >> hold on, i have to ask willie and lemire. so if we're going to play a wiffle ball game, we can clear these here. this home plate? >> left field over the wall. the big green monster. >> we move the wall over there. >> mm-hmm. >> yup. >> okay, what do we do with -- okay. >> it is a long home run to dead center, but you can do it.

408, 410. >> we can turn this around, right? >> put it there. >> this is the wall. >> there it is. >> we can project whatever we want, right? >> make it green if you want. >> turn it into the green monster. >> put the stands up there. >> have barnicle up top there. >> yeah. >> he can change the score, putting the numbers in. >> look at this. by the way, look at this. >> come to your seat. >> that's yankee stadium. >> you want to be a lefty in the park. >> we have to move some stuff out. can we do it for charity? >> yeah. >> so we don't feel bad about tearing the studio up. >> yes. >> moving on now. >> how are you doing, mika? >> i'm doing great. >> are ya? >> yup. >> seem a little on edge. >> look straight ahead. >> you seem a little on edge. >> stay on your side. [ laughter ] there's a line. will you get a piece of tape? >> i love mobile joe, by the

way. >> no, i don't. >> you're like an action figure. >> do i need to shake your hand? >> just tell me how important i am. >> so important. i like your tie. what club is that? the club of -- >> it is a very connecticut kind of tie. >> it is. >> yachty. >> okay. >> yacht and me in the same sentence. >> exactly. >> joining the conversation, donny is here. >> donny is like this ad. he is like this guru, right? he is like this legend, this ad and -- this branding legend. >> he's also donny. okay. also with us -- >> yeah, but he starred in the short-lived series -- >> critically acclaimed sitcom, "donny." >> also with us -- >> funny show. >> -- pulitzer prize winning columnist at "the washington post," eugene robinson. assistant editor of "the washington post," david ignatius is with us, as well.

>> i want to show everybody, look at this. look at this. come on! come on! >> wow, t.j. >> lemire. >> incredible. >> that is spectacular. >> red sox foundation here. >> that is amazing. >> this is going to be exciting. for a team -- you know, we could win 67, 68 games. >> we're not losing yet on the scoreboard, the only flaw. we will be soon. >> i like that. okay. >> well done. >> look at this. >> so cool. >> now i'm excited. >> there's barnicle, see? >> there he is. >> lone figure. >> avoiding us, as usual. >> won't talk to us. >> that is him up there. >> so fantastic. i love it. >> all right. >> and so it begins. look at that shot. >> okay. >> we'll have some -- what's your best pitch? >> i have a palm ball that moves. i play in the backyard with the kids a lot. >> a knuckleball, let it dance. >> my brother had the knuckle, the sinker, yeah. that was something.

those were the days. we're going to talk about iran with david. >> okay. >> oh, david is here. >> yes. >> how exciting. >> david, you have a piece in "the washington post" that is entitled, "biden calibrates his response as a slow-motion crisis arrives." this, of course, we're talking about the drone strikes that killed three american soldiers. in it, you write in part, quote, whether or not iran is ordering the strikes, it is supplying the weapons, training, and political support for these groups. it's fighting a classic covert campaign, acting against the united states through proxies in iraq, syria, and yemen, to drive america from the region without taking direct responsibility. iran's death to america obsession has been steaming since the 1979 revolution, so it won't end overnight. but biden can take steps to deter the current, indirect

warfare. deterrence is about sending signals. sometimes, that means using military force, but more often it involves credible warning. this administration's chief warning officer is cia director william j. burns. sending a warning to tehran is more complicated because the united states must be ready to back up whatever threat it makes. an overt u.s. attack on iranian territory strikes me as a bad idea, especially with the middle east already on fire, so i'd keep a burns back channel on the shelf for now. but superpowers can take other measures to protest their interests. iran isn't alone in its ability to conduct lethal covert actions. >> david, how much longer does the united states sit back and let this -- let these proxy attacks continue? >> so, joe, i'd say we should

sit back, but not the word i would choose, but the united states shouldn't take action here until it's thought through clearly what it wants to achieve. the one lesson for me of the last 20 years is you shouldn't go to war, you shouldn't use military force until you have a good idea of how it is going to turn out, about what the consequences are. you get into these conflicts and, as we've seen, you end up with problems that you never envisioned. the idea of thinking carefully, what are the effects we want to achieve? what are the assets we want to use? what's the end state we'd like to see come out of this? i think that's all to the good. i want to re -- >> david, it's been going on for some time. why haven't the biden administration come up with a response at this point, other than just saying, "we're going to figure out what we're going to do as more americans die"? >> i think the simple answer is that with the middle east already on fire, the u.s. has had an interest in seeing a

de-escalation of conflict rather than further escalation. >> who set the middle east on fire since october 7th? it is iran setting the region on fire. this was all directed back to tehran. they've set the middle east on fire. don't we put it out? >> so, again, you may have intelligence that the biden administration doesn't, but the evidence that iran has directed hamas' attacks, i'm not aware of it. they've been the suppliers of weapons. they've been training people. i think the u.s. was slow to respond in a particular area where our national interests are engaged. that's the strait, where international shipping crucial to the united states moves and is under attack. the u.s. has begun to act aggressively. every time the houthis put a missile on the rails to shoot at a ship, pow, that missile is taken down. that's been the case for the

last ten days, two weeks. i think it's good. it is exactly what we should be doing. the idea that we should be lobbing missiles into iran itself, i think people need to think very carefully about. >> so -- >> there's an intermediate issue that i think is being studied with great care now, which is, how do you go after iran's proxies in iraq and syria, which attacked the base in jordan and have been doing all kinds of mischief? the problem that you need to think about is that those groups have a lot more weapons at their disposal that they could use to shoot at other american targets. you don't want -- the idea is to lower the level of violence, to protect americans, not to get more americans exposed. so i think they're thinking, how do we protect our embassy in baghdad if we escalate against these proxies? how do we protect the 2,500 americans who are in iraq? how do we protect our people in syria? that's what i think our military should be doing before taking action. on the question of hitting iran

itself, that's going to war with another country. i think it requires significant debate before we jump into an all out war with iran. but there are lots of other options. they're not ones that countries announce, but they're ones that are available. the final thing i'd say, joe, is diplomacy shouldn't be just sort of thrown out the window in crises like this. the u.s. has had extensive conversations with china, saying, "your interests in restraining this conflict before it gets out of control are greater than ours. do something about it." we'll see whether they do. that pitch was made directly by our national security adviser, jake sullivan, last weekend with china's top diplomat. we'll see if they do anything about it. that's -- again -- >> and -- >> that's the kind of thing -- >> three americans are dead. the attacks keep coming. this started with iran. if the administration has better

intel than i do on who has been funding hamas and who has been funding hezbollah and who has been funding the houthis, i'm certainly open to receiving that. but iran is at the center of everything that's happened since october 7th. they funded these groups. then they sit back and say, oh, well, you know -- then they plead ignorance on some of the attacks. i mean, i heard a lot of intel right after you, well, the iranians say it caught them by surprise. you know, yet they're funding all of this. as you said, smoldering since 1979. they consider us their enemy. they have since 1979. they took hostages. you know, as mika's father knows very well, they took hostages. the united states just sat there and, you know, we got them back, thank god, but they've been blowing americans up, killing americans. they've been acting like this since 1979. i guess the question is, at what

point do we stop with the half measures? >> it is a fair question. i'm sure people in the country are asking it. >> they are. >> but you do need to think about what's going on. iran's most important proxy in the sunni world, hamas, is being taken apart. they're being taken down in gaza. it's taking a long time. it is terrible to watch. but hamas will not be as powerful going forward as it has been. hamas hoped that other groups, other iranian proxies would follow their lead. hezbollah in lebanon generally hasn't done that. they're, you know, shooting missiles, but the kind of explosive reaction that hamas was counting on hasn't happened. the houthis have been very aggressive in shooting missiles. the u.s. is now being very aggressive in shooting back. that's good. it's got a coalition behind it. again, one lesson for me of these last 15, 20 years, the usa should act with partners and allies in coalitions to

accomplish these groups. we shouldn't go it alone. surely, we've learned that. you know, if biden is taking his time to think carefully about the response, this isn't -- we're not luxembourg. we are not a helpless giant. we have a lot of military power. >> we all like b luxembourg, by the way. >> i love luxembourg, but that's not us. joe, there's sensible thought going on. what do we do? what risks do we take in the actions we take? are we sure we're going to end up at the end of the action in a better place than we were when it started? >> david's point -- >> i think david handled the cross-examination better than haass. >> you think so. >> he kept his cool. >> he watched at 6:00 a.m. >> that is true. >> he knew it was coming. >> true. >> he saw haass on the hot seat. >> yeah. >> just quickly on david's point, administration officials told me last night, the pace of

the houthi attacks have slowed down in the last week or so. they think this more aggressive deterrence, the actions, blowing up the missiles and such is working, at least for now. >> david, obviously, attacking tehran as some republican senators called for immediately in the wake of the death of these three american soldiers is not something the biden administration or any administration is eager to do given the consequences. but you write, iran is not alone in its ability to conduct lethal covert action. what is on the table for the biden administration here? >> obviously, this is in the realm where, if i pretended to know, i'd be lying. these are secret actions. in the past, we've seen the united states, when it wanted to interfere with the iranian nuclear development program, had a massive, very subtly crafted effort to use cyber to interfere with their ability to run their centrifuges. we have groups along a very wide

border that can operate against iran. these are things you have to be very careful about. again, you have to know where you're going to come out. i'm just saying, the idea that iran is invulnerable and dominating everything in the region, i think needs a careful rethink. the houthis are in the process of being contained. we are on the verge of a region wide alliance that, if this war in gaza can end, will stretch from morocco all the way through saudi arabia. it's the worst thing that ever happened to iran. iran will be increasingly isolated. to stand back a little bit and look at some of the trends that actually are more positive. >> all right. another big issue, of course, is the border. and why republicans won't pass a bill that has a lot of what they want in it. eugene, you have a new piece in

"the washington post" entitled, "what history tells us about greg abbott's defiance of the supreme court." you write in part, quote, texas governor greg abbott is defying the authority of the federal government, just as other southern governors did before the civil war and during the fight over school desegregation. like presidents before him, joe biden has the right and ultimately the duty to uphold the constitution, including by force. in 1957, three years after the supreme court's landmark decision ending segregation in the public schools, arkansas governor orval faubus deployed national guard troops to prevent the first nine black students from enrolling at all white little rock high school. so eisenhower acted, citing the 18307 insurrection act, he sent troops from the 101st airborne division to escort the black students into their new school. and he federalized the entire

arkansas national guard, taking control of the force out of faubus's hands. >> jerry jones was photographed there. cowboys owner, yup. >> there you go. >> if they are truly interested in securing the border, abbott and the other republican governors should become part of the solution. we get it, they don't like biden, and they want to weaken him politically as he runs for re-election. but biden has the duty and the power to defend the constitution. gene, is that where we want this to go? it seems like there could be a solution before this. >> yeah. one hopes there is a solution before this. i think there probably will be. i mean, there's no appetite in the administration for federalizing the texas national guard, but that is a tool that biden has if he needs to use it. the idea that greg abbott can just sort of blow off the

supreme court, the governor of the second most populous state in the country, essentially disregard it, and he gets support from 25 other republican governors who say, "yeah, he's right. we don't have to pay attention to that." to me, that's outrageous. to me, that cannot be the way this country functions. so it's -- i guess it's a warning, and it ought to be a caution to those who are going down this road. >> yup. >> ultimately, if you go too far down this road, there are options that the president has and may feel forced to use at some point. >> donny, they're testing. they're just testing the boundaries, the constitutional boundaries. here, they're going over the line. this is what donald trump is

going to do if donald trump is elected president. there will be no national guard to call out to enforce the supreme court decisions because donald trump will control the national guard. this is so obvious. he talks about orban. he talks about illiberal democracy. he talks about all of his tyrants who are his friends. then you see republicans openly defying the united states supreme court. that's exactly what donald trump is going to do if donald trump is elected again. it's just so obvious. >> yeah. we've talked a lot on this show about how the institutions will start to break if donald trump is elected. one of the things i want to say, i'm starting to feel a little bit better about things. couple months ago, i was terrified that donald trump would be the next president. donald trump keeps losing. you know, i'm shifting to e. jean carroll for a second. we watch him lose $93 million. we'll watch him lose a civil

case. we'll watch him lose an election fraud case. we watched him lose for six years. we see him blubbering. somehow, in the last month or so, things have turned a little bit. this would-be fascist that seems to be on a fast track seems to be getting diverted a little bit. i feel a little bit more bullish, coming off steve rattner, coming off a lot of things. this country does not want our institutions to fail. i believe in our electorate. i'm feeling a little bit better about things, about our would-be dictator. >> jen, the last month, obviously, donald trump has gotten very confused on stage. he thinks that joe biden is barack obama and nikki haley is nancy pelosi. he gets very addled. donny is right, he gets pounded in these court cases. again, it's not a deep state conspiracy. it's a jury of his own peers.

it's voters, you know, where he does business. it's only going to get worse. i mean, when the judge -- doesn't judge in the fraud case, doesn't he -- >> said by tomorrow. >> that's probably $250 million, $300 million, and that's money donald trump does not have. >> i've had the same sense, even in the last week, as donny said. he seems vulnerable in a way he didn't months ago. you know, i think it is a combination of us realizing, 50% to 60% of the party is with him, you know, maybe 40% are not. >> wasn't it striking in iowa? we sat there talking about iowa. >> yeah. >> couple days later, we realized that republicans make up about one-third of iowa voters, and only 14% of those 33% -- not 14% of the electorate -- 14% of 33% of iowans actually voted for donald

trump. well, half of those. 7%. >> yeah. >> of the 33%. >> supposed to be on his side. it was cold and everything like that. but in new hampshire, 40% of the people there said that -- the republicans that turned out said they'd not support him if he was convicted. 25% of iowans said they'd not support him even if he was the general election nominee. then you had nikki haley making -- you know, a republican making effective attacks on him. interestingly, she's playing the anti-establishment card, right? she's like, he has all the endorsements. he's got the party behind him. i'm the upstart here. she's playing his game. she's definitely getting under his skin. then you have biden taking him on on the border. you know, trump is now responding to biden. he's looking to see what president biden is saying about the border, and then he is responding to that. then the e. jean carroll case. >> keeps losing. he looks -- >> it's like the artifice is falling. now, we've been here before and it's not been sustained, but,

you know, like you said, there's the civil case in days, and then we have all the other court cases. you know, however long haley keeps this up. the biden team, even on twitter, the way they're lifting up anything he says that sounds a little crazy or a little lost, they're way more aggressive. >> i have to say, on the biden campaign, we talked about it last week, they actually look like a challenger. if you look, if you look on how rapidly they respond, they're not playing it safe. it's a lot -- i thought fetterman had great, great online presence when he was running for the senate. that's what biden's campaign looks like. i mean, they are going after trump aggressively. where trump will ramble on and on forever, they'll say, "watch donald trump say this stupid thing." "watch donald trump get confused

here." "watch donald trump mistake leaders of two countries here." it is constant. you're going, wow. >> pretty good. >> the rapid response team picked up. they have staffed up. it was a slow developing, a slow building campaign. they're hiring people left and right. they've shifted top white house aides over to wilmington to be the campaign side. they recognize that they've, right about the midterms, we talked about this, and they realized they need to go on the attack and make it much more of a contrast selection, not a referendum on the incumbent. you have two incumbents, they're saying, choose. they feel good about the choice. they have worries about the democratic base. they need to excite them. independent swing voters, they feel good they're going to stay home. it is not just that the online presence, the other person going after donald trump, is joe biden. biden who, for a year and a half, refused to say trump's name, and there's data out in the last week or so, he is peppering every speech with trump. he's going right after him. he's taking some of his perceived weaknesses, say his age, and turning it into a strength and using it as a cajole to go after trump. >> you also hear, you know, some

democrats cringe when joe biden has a moment on the stage or whatever, you know, stumbles through his speech at times. you're starting to hear republicans say that about donald trump. >> sure. >> not the dyed in the wool maga supporters who go to the rallies, but the long riff, not a slip of the tongue, where he confused nancy pelosi with nikki haley, you're starting to hear independents and old line republicans, the ones we talk about all the time, go, oomph. that's not great. >> donald trump was always about strength, and he's looking weak. >> he looks weak. >> he was shut up by jean carroll. donald, keep your mouth shut. he won't be able to. he keeps getting beat up. he is beat up donald trump. he is grumpy, soft, weak. he doesn't -- my response to the authoritative in waiting is, he looks real weak. >> yeah. he actually has shut up since the $83 million. >> in his own mind, he looks weak because he thinks he should

be able to -- >> well, e. jean carroll beat him up really badly in court, humiliated him. i mean, i can't imagine that. that'd be pretty rough with everything else going on. but you see people, though, you're right, the republicans that will see donald trump talking, haley, nikki haley, nikki haley, then he'll stop, that's not the name, and he'll go back to her. just like in one of the best clips, he chokes on the name obama. he stops and then just goes there because his mind can't retrieve joe biden's name. fascinating. i'm wondering, gene, if you look at the polls, joe biden's weakness right now, actually, not so much from black voters or hispanic voters that were the big concern. i think there's a belief that,

other than some black men and some hispanic men, i think they believe that most core democrats will come home. right now, it's young voters that are -- that are bleeding badly. so much of that centers around gaza. >> exactly. >> i wonder how much longer bibi netanyahu is going to continue helping donald trump get re-elected. >> exactly. i think bibi is going to continue. i think president biden politically, and arguably geopolitically, but certainly politically, the thing for him to do is to put some distance, some visible distance between him and netanyahu. not between him and the state of israel, which was viciously, brutally attacked on october 7 and, yes, has the right to self-defense. but there are distinctions

there, and there are shades of gray. bibi netanyahu is not joe biden's friend. joe biden knows that. politically, he's certainly not his friend. the groups that i think the president needs to worry about are young voters across the country and arab-american voters in michigan. >> yup. >> michigan, a state he needs to win. a state where arab-american voters are a big and influential voting block. they are not happy with president biden right now. >> no. >> that is something that, politically, they need to work on. but the other thing that's going on, though, is -- and you mentioned it -- i think nikki haley has really gotten under trump's skin. you know how he is with strong women who challenge him. he can't stand that. i think that is having -- is part of this effect that we're

seeing on him, this confusion, this looking like a loser. he just can't stand it. >> yeah. >> the longer she is able to continue doing that, i think just her being in the race weakens him. >> david ignatius, as i was shuffling through my war plans, invasion war plans, to invade iran, i actually came across an article in "the financial times" yesterday which i found fascinating, which shows the world we live in. i remember macron, it was in mid '30s, and people said, he's going to lose to la pen. i said, he'll get 58% of the vote. he did, even though approval ratings were in the 30s. financial times had a fascinating look at how poorly leaders in western democracies are doing. they are just extraordinaily unpopular. you look, for instance, joe biden sitting at 37%. that's higher than justin

trudeau at 31%. that's higher than sunak in the uk at 25%. macron, 24%. in germany, olaf scholz, 21%. prime minister of japan, 16%. if you're in a western democracy right now, you're having problems. by you look at, for instance -- okay, you can take that off, guys. that was fascinating. you look at the new hampshire polls, joe biden's approval rating, about 35% in new hampshire, yet he beats donald trump 52 to 45. it's just, looking at approval ratings this year, i don't think, will make a big difference in determining who is going to actually win the election. but why are those democracies, why are western democracy's leaders struggling so hard, so badly? >> it is a mystery. there is a kind of leadership

malaise around the world. even in china, there's interesting numbers coming out of china, quasi polls that show xi jinping is less popular than you would have thought. there's kind of a growing malaise among young people in china. hard to explain that. i'll share one thing. i asked somebody who is very close to president biden this week how he was doing. he's got the problems of the world on his shoulders. we talked about the difficult choices he has to make. the answer was, he is doing great. he likes campaigning. he is in the campaign now, and he enjoys it. he feels like he is doing the thing that he likes about politics and is good at. i think if that can continue, he can take joy in the campaign at a time when trump, his opponent, is going to seem di mired in

misery. every week, something new will be happening to donald trump. but he is liking being in the campaign now. >> yeah. >> all right. "the washington post"'s david ignatius, eugene robinson, thank you, both. donny deutsch, thank you, as well. how do you think the biden clapback is going? >> i think biden is -- i mean, you know, i think he is doing really well. i mean, he's engaged. >> mm-hmm. >> he is on fire. listen, he's not running sprints. i mean, again, he's older. you see it when he walks out there. he's owning that, but he's all there. he's fired up. he's ready to go. i think -- i actually think he is liking this campaign a lot more than he was liking the last campaign. by the way, it is fascinating to me, there are still -- there are still intelligent people who think that there's some flea flicker coming and joe biden is not going to be the president

and it is going to be -- >> i hear it every day. >> -- michelle obama. let me tell you something. i had the opportunity to speak to the president once or twice lately. let me tell you something, that guy is in it to win it. he's fired up. if anybody even suggests that he not run, it just -- there's no other word for it -- it pisses him off. he gets more focused. i say this, he'd never show anger toward me or anybody, but he gets really focused and fired up. he knows what he wants to do. what he wants to do politically is he wa wants to pummel donald trump. he wants to destroy extreme maga politics. >> yeah. >> he's geared up and ready to go. still ahead on "morning joe," from the aide who secretly

taped the president demanding voter fraud to assassination threats faced by fulton county's district attorney, a new book is revealing fresh details about donald trump's bid to overturn the 2020 election in georgia. we'll be joined by the investigative journalists behind that reporting. plus, a judge denies convicted murderer alex murdaugh a new trial, but not before a day of dramatic testimony involving claims of jury tampering. we'll have a live report from south carolina breaking down yesterday's ruling and what happens next. nd comfort. your sleep number setting. and actively cools and warms up to 13 degrees on either side. save 50% on the sleep number limited edition smart bed. plus 0% interest for 36 months on select smart beds. ends monday. only at sleep number.

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business to the next stage when you switch to shopify. hey, doc, quick question. okay? if you had to choose, would you give yourself a root canal or run payroll? run payroll, no question. you know how tough payroll can be, right? no. we switched to gusto, and paying my team couldn't be easier. gusto gives me unlimited payroll runs, next day direct deposits, and automatically files my taxes. ooh, taxes! sounds like you know the drill. good one! can i run payroll too? sure, after this. choose payroll without the pain. that's working with gusto. willie, we all have to look back and question some of the decisions that we made in our lives. it happens. you say, where did it go wrong? should i have taken a left?

should i have been an engineer? >> yes. >> instead of -- >> you should not have, but go ahead. >> instead of studying english, history, and anything that didn't have numbers in it. like, i don't know. >> sliding door moments. >> it was a sliding door. there i was, gwyneth paltrow. i walked into the wrong train. i wake up to find out, what? >> our good buddies. the smartless boys. jason bateman, will arnett, sean hayes, hilarious, outstanding podcast in their pajamas. >> never preparing. >> for an hour a week. >> proud that they don't prepare. >> endlessly entertaining. signed a handsome deal yesterday with sirius xm. >> how much? >> i believe $100 million over three year. we need to re-evaluate some things. >> misspent youth, dear. >> can we move on? >> still misspending it. we're on for 87 hours a week.

>> yeah. >> poor lemire, 94. >> yeah. >> in the darkness of the night you wake up. >> exactly. >> i'm not similarly compensated. i need to talk to my agent, i suppose. >> we love those guys. congrats. >> happy for them. >> all right. let's turn back to the news. a judge denied convicted murderer alex murdaugh a new trial after a hearing yesterday focused on allegations a court clerk tampered with the jury and tainted the verdict. the disgraced south carolina attorney was sentenced last year to consecutive life sentences without parole after he was found guilty of killing his wife and their youngest son. joining us from columbia, south carolina, sam brock, who was in the courtroom yesterday. sam, good morning. >> reporter: willie, guys, good morning. this was nonstop chaos from start to finish yesterday. the judge ultimately saying the clerk at the heart of these tampering allegations was not a credible witness. she tore apart her testimony on the stand and, in fact, becky

hill's own story was contradicted by friends and jurors, even her own emails. the judge decided at the end of the day, nothing that happened could have changed the outcome of this case and denied the retrial. >> did clerk of court hill's comments have any impact on the verdict of the jury? i find that the answer to this question is no. >> reporter: the most sensational trial in south carolina history has finally been put to bed, at least for now. monday's dramatic ruling and rejection of alex murdaugh's motion for a retrial following his double murder conviction for the killing of his wife and youngest son featured a host of twists, turns, and contradictions on the stand for clerk of court becky hill. >> i did not have a conversation with any juror about anything related to this case. >> was your verdict on march the 2nd, 2023, in any way, with

any -- in interference with any communications by the clerk of court becky hill in this case? >> yes, ma'am. >> how was it influenced? >> to me, it felt like she made it seem like he was already guilty. >> reporter: that bombshell coming from a woman named juror z, though she was the only one of 12 jurors who say hill actually influenced her vote. even then, her sworn affidavit from august said, "i had questions about mr. murdaugh's guilt but voted because i felt pressured by the other jurors, making no mention of hill, who is currently under investigation by the state for alleged interactions with the jury and using her office for personal gain. >> it's possible that she may have broken jury tampering laws, but far more likely, she violated her known duty to not interfere with the deliberations of the jurors. >> reporter: the proceedings also highlighted hill's book, "behind the doors of justice," which also proved a tale of two stories. >> how much money did you make off that book? >> roughly around $100,000.

>> guilty would sell more books. >> we might want to write a book because she needed a lakehouse and i needed to retire. further conversations, a guilty verdict would sell more books. >> reporter: in the end, the judge concluding that hill didn't change the outcome but did cross a line. >> i find that the clerk of court is not completely credible as a witness. ms. hill was attracted by t silent calling of celebrity. >> reporter: not surprisingly, the murdaugh legal team says they'll appeal this to the court of appeals. if there, the state supreme court if that doesn't work, and then the federal courts. that could take a matter of years. this might be an uphill battle, as the judge said she read every word of the six-week murder trial transcript and said the jury came to the right conclusion. back to you. >> sam brock live in columbia, south carolina, thank you very

much for the reporting. >> probably not going to get overturned. >> no. >> nobody got a lake house out of it. >> joining us now, state attorney for palm beach, florida, dave aronberg. you predicted this just 24 hours ago. not surprised. >> not surprised, mika. here's why. this was decided essentially when the justice came up with a high burden for murdaugh to reach. it wasn't that hill's comments were at issue. it was whether or not a juror changed his or her mind as a result. 11 out of the 12 jurors said no, it didn't influence me. one of the 12 jurors did, but that juror didn't come up with a lot of proof. she said she was influenced, but becky hill's comments were only about paying close attention to alex murdaugh. that's something you see in the jury instructions. that's not exactly a smoking gun. that's not exactly calling him jack the ripper. also, you mentioned this affidavit in your last report

back in august. in the previous affidavit, this same juror said it was fellow jurors who pressured her, but that's okay. that's not grounds for a changing of the verdict. now, she changed her decision on the stand yesterday. she said, no, it was becky hill who improperly influenced me. the fact she changed her mind, it was inconsistent, the fact she didn't really come up with the goods meant that i think this justice made the right decision in this verdict to stand. >> certainly on appeal, though, i mean, it's something -- it is an appealable issue, right? >> it is. >> and one that an appeals court could actually reverse. >> here is where they have grounds for appeal. because justice toll came up with this higher burden, really, murdaugh's goose was cooked. if she had come up with a different burden, and there are different burdens in the law, things could have been different. so if the appellate court says, no, the burden should have been lower, should have been on the state to overcome a presumption

that there was undue influence here, well, then this case would be overturned. but it doesn't mean he is going to get a new trial. it mo means it goes back and another hearing has to take place. eventually, like, he is going to die in prison. he's not getting out. he has other charges, the financial crimes he committed. he has years in prison there. but this just prolongs the agony for the families of the victims. i hope this ends, but i don't see the appeals ending anytime soon. >> state attorney for palm beach county, florida, dave aronberg, thank you, once again, for your insight this morning. coming on this morning, by now, most of us heard the infamous recording of then president trump pushing georgia's secretary of state to change the outcome of the 2020 election. >> i only need 11,000 votes. fellas, i need 11,000 votes. give me a break. so look, all i want to do is this. i just want to find 11,780

votes, which is one more than we have, because we won the state. there's nothing wrong with saying that, you know, that you've recalculated. >> now, a new book reveals the extent of the pressure campaign on georgia and the lengths that some trump associates have gone to in order to keep an investigation into their actions at bay. the book is entitled, "find me the votes," a hard charging georgia prosecutor, a rogue president, and the plot to steal an american election. the co-authors, award-winning investigative journalists, jou us now. >> congratulations, guys. a couple of things jump out here. let's start with sidney powell. one of the president's top legal advisors plotted criminal

break-ins at election offices around the country to seize machines and sensitive software. talk about that. >> that is the perfect example of just how far the trump people were prepared to go, particularly in georgia, to overturn the results of the election. sidney powell, who, by the way, as we discovered in reporting this, was in regular communication with donald trump the whole time, throughout the time. she is calling trump in the white house. trump is calling down to her and her confederate, lin wood, a full blown qanon adherent. she was convinced they were venezuelan socialists who planted secret algorithms in dominion voting machines. within a week after the election, she draws up a plan for criminal break-ins at election offices around the country to seize those dominion machines and to protect the operatives who would do that assigned to do that with hunting licenses, which were preemptive presidential pardons and we trace how it goes from that to

an actual break-in that took place in the rural county in georgia, coffee county, case of computer theft in the georgia indictment. >> daniel, just a bizarre moment. you guys have here, with lindsey graham, who fights the subpoena for months after he testifies, he goes up and he hugs fanny willis, thanks her, says that was so cathartic, and supposedly threw trump under the bus during the testimony. talk about that. >> we talked to people in the grand jury, grand jurors who saw this and described what happened. and threw him under the bus. that's how they described it. as you pointed out, joe -- >>. >> yes. he said if martians told donald trump the election was stolen, he would have believed it. he accused donald trump of

cheating at golf. i love the word cathartic because here is a guy, linsey graham, who was the -- john mccain, the maverick who bucked his own peart, his mentor and hero. trump comes along and he is squaring to donald trump and you have to wonder whether there is some internal struggle going on inside lindsey graham. finally he gets in front of a grand jury, is sworn to tell the truth, and unburdens himself. he calls it cathartic and hugs fani willis. >> they are denying it. >> we have eyewitnesses, multiple sources. so it happened. >> he was caught telling the truth. had to say it was bs. >> trump attacking it, mark meadows attacking his own book. >> fake news. >> exactly. >> stunning moment. let's talk about the phone call that we played there.

how that came to pass. you actually talked to the aide to secretary of state raffensperger who helped make this happen. >> who made it happen. this is one of the extraordinary stories. unknown stories of the whole 2020 election battle. look, georgia was ground zero for everything that took place during the elections where trump's pressure campaign was most furious, most intense. it is worth noting that republicans in georgia, republican officeholders at every step of the way thwarted everything he was trying to do from raffensperger, obviously, chris carr, the attorney general who vowed to resign rather than back trump's campaign to have a special session in the state legislature. the one that stands out and made the most difference was this aide to raffensperger, jorgen pucks, a 30-year-old political consultant, unknown to the wider

world. meadows reaches out to her to set up that phone call. they had been avoiding talking to trump because trump was suing them. she didn't want her boss on the phone with donald trump, have trump completely distort the contents. she decides on her own, unilaterally, she is going to tape the call. she is on the phone call the whole time. she puts herself on mute. you never hear her voice. she taped the whole thing. had it not been for that, we would not have those -- >> risky thing to do because she was visiting her grandparents at the time, a two-party -- in florida, which is a two-party consent state. she needed the consent of whoever she was taping. she didn't get it. exposed herself to potential criminal prosecution. i don't think that will happen. but it was a risky and courageous thing to do. >> she never talked about it publicly. when she testified before the special grand jury under

immunity, she acknowledged. >> so brad raffensperger didn't know at the time? >> she didn't tell raffensperger, meadows, and she didn't tell trump. it was -- >> a hinge of history. >> yes. >> the most consequential act of the post-election saga. >> so, daniel, we are seeing a lot of threats against people, prosecutors, politicians and the like who stand up to donald trump, swatting incidents. fani willis, the d.a. in fulton county, has received a lot of those. you have evidence, proof of calls, texts, emails, voice memos, assassination attempts? >> in the days before the indictment, these threats, intensifying against her. and her security staff, they noticed an assassination threat on a deep web dark web maga site. the best time to shoot her is when she leaves the building. they set up an elaborate operation that involves a body

double. after the midnight indictment is -- she announces the indictment, which she -- after the indictment about one in the morning she and her team go to the back office where she changes out of her business attire into sweats, a t-shirt, and a baseball cap. meanwhile, someone on her staff, a woman about the same size, an investigator, changes into clothes that are -- that resemble what fani willis was wearing, black business suit, a string of pearls and a black bob wig. the body double goes out the front of the courthouse. >> wearing a kevlar -- >> she is wearing a bulletproof vest. goes out, gets in the official black suvs. meanwhile, fani willis and her team go out, slip out the back of the courthouse, get into civilian cars and leave for an undisclosed -- >> smuggled out of the office. >> location.

well dramatic moment. >> a sign of just how these threats have, you know, had such an impact on everybody involved. >> one more quick point about the threats, which is, you know, the big political moment, question of this moment, which you guys talk about on the show all the why so many mainstream republicans haven't stood up to donald trump. a lot of it is expediency, i'm sure. a lot, we're told, is these threats, particularly people who are worried about their families. and we saw this all over georgia. you know, brad raffensperger's wife, who we talked to, we saw the text messages that she was getting, the torrent of messages, you know, horrific sexual threats against her over and over again. you know, mitt romney said in his memoir that he pays $5,000 a

day to protect himself and his family. most people can't afford that, even in the senate. so this is corrosive to democracy and it's a pretty serious thing. >> after january 6th, it's just a threat to our families. we can't say anything. we will let you go. as we talk about fani willis here, the trump legal team wants her off the case because of her alleged relationship with the special prosecutor nathan way that she appointed. is her role in this case in your assessment in jeopardy here? could she be pulled off? how would it affect it? >> she will be filing a response later this week, the first response she makes to the allegations and we have reason to believe it's going to be a vigorous pushback on some of what has been alleged. there is no question this was a lapse in judgment on her part to have a relationship with nathan wade, the chief prosecutor on the case. but that said, it is worth keeping this in perspective.

none of that had any impact on the case whatsoever. it didn't deny anybody the constitutional rights. it was not a case of prosecutorial misconduct, doesn't influence any of the evidence this the case. so we'll see after she responds and the judge has a hearing february 15. >> the legal threshold for disqualification is an actual conflict of interest. it's a very high bar. end of the day, the judge has to make the decision based on law, based on precedence and that conflict. and i don't know that there is. >> the question is, did a conflict disadvantage a defendant. >> exactly. >> there is no evidence of that at all. >> not only is there no evidence of that, but if you are arguing that the prosecutor got the job because of a personal relationship, well, it wasn't based on merit, so that would helply help the defendant. i'm serious.

>> good point. >> there is not an argument to be made. >> one other quick point. one of the things we report in the book, she had a hard time finding anybody to take that job because of the threats. the former governor of georgia turned her down saying he didn't want a bodyguard following him around the rest of his life. so, you know, there is a lot of complexities to this stories. >> the book is "find me the votes" a hard charging georgia prosecutor, a rogue president and the plot to steal an american election. fascinating new details. michael and daniel, thank you both very much for coming on the show. congratulations. >> thank you. all right. top of the hour coming up. what we're learning this morning about the deadly drone attack on u.s. troops in jordan and how the biden administration might respond. plus, we'll play for you nikki haley's response to the jury's verdict in donald trump's defamation damages case and what her answer says about the state of today's republican party.

now to willie with the news. the department of defense has identified now the three army reserve soldiers killed by a drone strike on a u.s. base in jordan. they are 46-year-old sergeant william jerome rivers, 24-year-old specialist kennedy lay don sanders and 23-year-old specialist breonna alexsondria moffett. the soldiers were deployed to the middle east as a combined task force targeting isis. according to "the new york times," part of a team trained to build roads and landing fields. they were killed when a drone packed with explosives struck near the barracks where they were sleeping. in a statement, president biden said the attack was carried out by radical iran-backed militant groups operating in syria and iraq. it was the third on that base in the past six months, according to two pentagon officials. neither of the previous attempts caused casualties. officials suggest the drone may have passed through u.s. air

defenses because the base was expecting an american drone to return around the same time and did not recognize the attack drone as a threat. some officials say the drone's low altitude may have been a factor, vowing to retaliate, president biden met with members of the national security team in the white house situation room yesterday to discuss options. meanwhile, secretary of state antony blinken warned of what may come next. >> we will respond. we will respond strongly. we will respond at a time and place of our choosing. obviously, i am not going to telegraph what we might do in this instance or get ahead of the president, but again i can tell you as the president said yesterday, we will respond. and that response could be multileveled, come in stages and be sustained over time. we do not seek conflict with iran. we do not seek war with iran,

but we have and we will continue to defend our personnel and to take every action necessary to do that. >> so, richard, we had heard in a statement from the president yesterday, heard from john kirby at the podium as well, iran, iran, iran. they are clear who backed the effort. some republican senators saying attack tehran. others suggesting there are other ways to go about this. what are some of the options on the table to retaliate here for the president? >> you have a menu of options. i think the sense is you have to do something. the menu goes from slightly increased either economic sanctions or enforce better existing economic sanctions. that's probably at the low end, willie. i think in the middle is to go after some of the iranian-backed groups out of iraq more likely syria, perhaps a group involved in laurming this drone. there is also iranian irgc

troops inside of syria and iraq, maybe go after them. at the high end is going after iran itself. certain people are calling for it. i understand the argument. but that is -- that would be a major potential escalation. it's not just the united states already has its hands full in the middle east. we have our hands full around the world and we've got to ask our if the entire strategic logic of the last decade has been to dial down american involvement in the middle east to deal with china -- >> but when they are killing american, when they continue to target americans, when it's always funded by iran, we're not waiting for iran to declare war against us. they already have. >> and this has been our post since 1979, we are not going into iran, not do this, but we will do that. i have for some reason, i don't know why, but one of those editorials that survived from 2008. it was talking about george w. bush being weak on iran.

that editorial in "the wall street journal" has been written for every administration since 1979. we keep -- ronald reagan tried to do deals with iran. we all keep trying to do deals with iran. when are we going to make iran understand that attacking the united states soldiers and killing them is just not worth it for them? >> look, joe, there are things we could do against iran, go after ships, go after iranian -- >> i know. >> again, the question is we got to play chegs. do -- >> they already kicked their chess board over. >> i don't think so. >> they are killing americans. >> there is nothing new about the attack that happened the other day. >> and that's the problem. there is nothing new with iran attacking and killing americans. >> the question is, think this through. i am not making their case. to we want to have a prolonged set of exchanges with iran and proxies that are worse than what we already have, do more things,

is that what we are looking for in the region, what we are looking for globally? >> that's what i have been looking for in iran since 1979 -- >> what makes you think it would be decisive, that the united states could do things with iran that reduce the threat and strategically leave us better off in three days or three weeks? >> you think if we go in and we go after their oil infrastructure and warn them that more is to come, do you think that deter them? what have we done to deter iran from killing three more americans tonight? >> well, one thing i would do -- >> no, what have we done? >> we haven't -- what have we done to -- >> we are doing it again tonight. >> we are not. >> why don't we go on the spy ship iran has, board it, strip it of its intel information and sink it? bury it at the bottom of the red

sea and say, come after us again, things will get worse? >> that's okay. that's different than attacking iran itself. let's do this -- >> that's okay sinking their ship? >> think about measured escalation. go after iranian proxies much more, and iranian troops in places like syria ar to iraq. we could go after specific iranian investments. let's do a lot of things before we do a direct war against about iran proper. the oil situation, if you want to go after that, do you necessarily want to do that to oil markets? you may. you may decide it's important enough and necessary. all i'm saying is we have to think this through, the day after, the day after. >> iran gets all their funding from oil. that's how they fund hezbollah, that's how they fund hamas, that's how they fund the houthis, all of these terror organizations that kill

americans in their name. and i'm just wondering what is -- what would the biden administration's problem be with going in and taking out some of their oil infrastructure? and just sending the message, you know, keep going, it gets a lot worse? >> higher gas prices. >> i don't care. dead americans. >> i think that -- i mean, i think -- you know -- well, richard laid out some of the possible consequences. anytime you are doing anything that mess was oil markets, our gas prices are -- can be an existential threat to a presidency. >> right. well, okay. so military targets. what's the problem with military targets? >> i have new reporting about the menu. it's much of what richard said. they have not taken off the table going in iran itself. that's not the favorite option for now. more likely they will hit iranian troops in other

countries, the revolutionary guard, naval vessels in the persian gulf. they feel like that's the escalation that they can live w as you heard from the secretary of state here, it's a balancing act. they want to hit iran and hit them hard. three americans are dead. they want to do something to act as a dough terns. that said, they don't want to escalate -- >> do they understand that the more americans that die, the more the escalation is going to be cranked up quickly? there will come a time when this administration and this congress has no choice but to go into iran, if they continue, to sit back while americans get killed? >> the u.s. -- the biden white house believes that iran will blink. tehran doesn't want a full-out war with the united states. >> what do you do to make them blink? what have we done to make them blink? >> to this point, clearly not. >> why? >> officials in the biden

administration -- >> why, why, why, why, why have we not deterred iran? >> for this administration, they act carefully even with the houthi strikes. they responded to 10% of what houthis have done to this -- >> why? >> because they, again, they are fearful of a wider conflict and it has to reach a certain threshold when americansers injured or there is a red sea -- a ship that's damaged. they strike back on the houthis. here i am told the response will begin potentially as early as today, next couple of days, come in waves. it is going to be a sustained retall accreditation from the united states that they believe this will be a eterns. if not, up it further. it will be a dadder. >> that was the nature of tony publicen's comments with the idea of a response as a single action. what it really is, is going to be a sustain set of actions, different places, different points, and there will be messaging with iran. again, what is so interesting is

that the drone strike that had this tragic affect was not fundamentally new or different. and so it will be interesting that -- the iranians probably didn't count on this result, whether now now they pull in a little bit because they don't want things to go down this path. this regime does not need a confrontation with the united states. >> i keep hearing this, willie. that's what we heard after october 7. you know, the iranians, they kinda -- they didn't really know what was going on. you know, people -- even the trump administration, we checked intel sources. the iranians were really surprised. >> the challenge -- >> and the iranians don't want this. everything that's happened on october 7th and since october 7th has been brought to you by iran. everything. everything. and we keep sitting back going, what can we do?

what can we do? like great britain in 1959. for f's sake, what can we do? we can -- i'm sorry, willie. what did -- did i wake up in luxembourg? what's going on here? >> beautiful part of the world, by the way. >> i love luxembourg. if you go after iran, you rather have the united states -- willie. >> for a country that claims this iran it doesn't want an escalation, doesn't want a war, it sure seems to be attacking america and other western interests a lot. if we look at it from their point of view, what are they up to here? what do they want? they are going to get a retaliation from the united states here. >> what iran wants is to use the proxies one step removed to get the ounts. middle east. they want the united states forces out of iraq, which iran increasingly dominates. they want the united states forces out of syria to complete

the civil war, iran dominates lebanon. they are looking to essentially dominate the big chunks of the middle east. they have hamas and hezbollah on -- >> but what started this. saudi arabia. i mean, it was saudi arabia getting closer to israel, doing the deal, and -- >> let's talk about october 7th. >> again, everything we -- this -- these are just a trailers from october 7th. all of this is in reaction to october 7th. >> right. so, joe, there are things we want to do against iran. i am just saying iran has a lot of tools and the idea that we can somehow deal them a decisive employee is unlikely and we've got to say given what's going on in europe and what's going on potentially in asia how much of our resources and time do we want to devote it to this part of the world? again, we have spent the last several decades devoting a disproportionate amount of

american lives and dollars and time to the greater middle east. >> and you have said that. you have said that consistently and you have people like -- well, the trump administration that thought they could do these great middle east plans without the palestinians. >> minor omission. >> guess what? we can't move on from the middle east until we take care of the palestinians. we have to have a two-state solution. so here history finds us again. >> 100%. that's one of the tools that has been missing is the one you put your finger on. the diplomatic tool and the idea that we can walkway from the middle east without a palestinian dimension was clearly a major fallacy and that is what i think we are coming up against now. the problem is, we have neither an israeli nor palestinian partner. >> so the guy -- >> yeah. >> i had some documents that suggest that he is open to have

a seaside villa in iran. >> all right, still ahead -- >> good place. >> still ahead on "morning joe," bringing it together here, still ahead on "morning joe," nikki haley stands up for american juries. the rule of law. we will show you what she said in defense of the verdict against donald trump and his most recent defamation case. plus, our next guest says a new powerful well funded political movement is rising fast in america. jim van die of axios will join us to talk about the emerge ens of the so-called techno ocht mists. >> i don't like them. >> who are these people? >> i don't know who they are. also ahead, the president of the united auto workers union to talk about the organization's endorsement of president biden's re-election campaign. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.

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. the biden campaign is planning a first-of-its-kind fundraiser with president biden and former presidents clinton and obama. three presidents that all had classic lines. those bill clinton's. >> we can seize these moments. >> obama's. >> yes, we can. >> and joe biden. >> i got hairy legs that turn blonde in the sun. >> yeah. >> all right. 2024 presidential candidate nikki haley is stand you by -- >> wait a minute. that was funny. >> it reminds us, he needs to give some loyalties to david letterman. david letterman, what he did every night with george w. bush, it was classic. >> funny, too. >> oh, yeah. >> the w at the end.

maybe w trying to open the door in china or bouncing the basketball. >> yeah. >> george w. bush. >> oh, yeah. >> just a -- >> nobody loved it more. back to politics. nikki haley standing by comments she made supporting the jury in writer e. jean carroll's $83 million defamation verdict against donald trump. take a look at what she had to say on fox news yesterday. >> you are taking some new fire from donald trump's campaign and supporters for what you said about the e. jean carroll case on "meet the press" yesterday. of course, the president was found liable in that case. a jury awarded her $83.3 million. here's what you said when you were asked about it. >> i absolutely trust the jury and i think that they made their decision based on the evidence. >> so "the new york times" wrote an article around that in which it says in part, quote, four weeks before what could be the decisive republican primary in south carolina, miss haley is trying to navigate a narrow and treacherous path. find wag to diminish mr. trump's

hold on her party's electorate without decisively turning conservative voters against her the way they destroyed other trump critics. how do you navigate that path? >> it cracks me up that people try to overanalyze. i tell the truth as i see it. there have been politics played with prosecutors, that have brought on some of these cases, politics played even with the judges. i do think american juries get it right. they listen to eftd. they make the decision based on the evidence and i do still trust that fi american that soits on a jury, i trust they are making the right decision. >> we just have to. i mean, that is the center of our judicial system. you have to trust fellow voters that get in the jury pool. and sometimes they seem to get it right and sometimes they seem to get it wrong. but you have to have faith in the system that more often than not they get it right. >> well, compare -- >> to constitution.

>> to republican senators who defended trump last spring after he was found liable for sexual assault and defamation. in the words of marco rubio at that time, that jury is a joke. the whole case is a joke. >> imagine that. can you -- i guess we can imagine six years later. but in the united states, a united states senator, and they do it. they will trash any institution that checks donald trump's absolute lies for absolute power, and in this case marco rubio called a jury a joke. marco rubio, who wasn't in the courtroom, didn't hear the evidence, didn't have any of the judge's instructions, didn't know what the law was in that particular case, and again just attacked the judge, attacked the jury system, attack american democracy, attack whatever it takes to lift up donald trump. >> yeah, and from saying that it's part of a biden -- you know, wholly independently of

biden in this case filed in 2019 before joe biden was president. i think it's important that -- i mean, haley walks a fine line and she never criticizes trump at the foundation of what he, you know, she'll never go to the conduct. >> right. >> right? she won't go that far, to the conduct on the mar-a-lago case or the e. jean carroll case. but to defend the jury, that's like defending the election. that's defending, you know, that's defending the process, that's actually an important thing. it's important for republicans to hear this, important for republicans and swing voters and independents to hear a republican say, you know, to attack trump and for a republican to uphold the jury system. >> you know, richard, it was always conservatives who were supposed to defend institutions going all the wail back to edmund burke who talked about radicals, zealots could tear

down institution it is in a day that were built up over centuries of time. here you have, ironically, the same people that were running around defending institutions in the late '60s and early '70s under attack from the far left, now they are the ones attacking those same institutions that are foundational to this republic. >> the idea that what nikki haley is saying is in any way remarkable, this is pure american classic conservatism, trial by jury. it's an institution. that's what conservatives used to believe in. the republican party has so strayed from conservatism, it's become a populist personalist party and this is the consequence. >> and think about how dangerous the consequences will be now that we have a texas governor, just saying, i'm going to ignore a supreme court ruling. see, because we talk about all

the dangers that donald trump poses. that's one of them. donald trump, if he gets into power again, he is going to be -- he is going to -- you know, i don't think he is going to even try to do what netanyahu's trying to do in israel. i think he is just going to go straight there and he is going to ignore the supreme court's rulings and then we have a constitutional crisis of the first order. >> yeah, republicans suggesting they get to pick and choose which supreme court decisions they want to abide by is so dangerous. i think we are going to see in the year ahead as the trump legal cases move forward and decisions come down against him we will see them reject those and move forward, even before trump were to get in office, if he were elected again, that will go out the window. he will simply do what he wants. and i think this is part of the that argument that the democracy argument that the president -- president biden is trying to make and the biden team thinks that it is important to mika's

points, republicans are hearing this from nikki haley. that's a low bar to clear but she cleared it in places like on fox where republicans, viewers who love trump are hearing it for the first time, they will not listen to joe biden. >> such a commentary in the state of the republicans, congratulating nikki haley for supporting the jury system in america. but here we are. taurk about governor abbott and the border issue. learning more about the border security provisions in the bipartisan senate deal. negotiators working on it for month. legislation would grant the federal government new authority to shut down the border once crossings reach a certain threshold. there would be new restrictions and how approved migrants are released in the country. they hope to make the text of the bill public this week, but republicans continue to actively trash a bill they have not read. former president trump is claiming a border bill is not needed. speaker mike johnson posted on x yesterday the bill is a

non-starter in the house. many house republicans echoed that sentiment yesterday. >> joe biden has the power to address this unprecedented crisis tomorrow by reversing the 64 executive actions he took to effectively open our southern border. >> the president has the ability right now, the power to stop it. to 12 f. use that power. undo the orders that tom referenced. he chooses not to because this is all a sham and it's purposeful. it's a purposeful to -- our society and undermine our way of life, he is stroi western civilization. >> biden is salivating at the prospect of staggeringly senate compromise bill. you never give in when our national security is constantly being threatened by the traitorous actions of the executive branch. >> the traitorous actions? >> wait. i thought they wanted this. >> they wanted it. now they don't want it.

>> they care so much. >> you know? >> and they throw around words -- by the way, i'm sorry, going back to edmund burke. what was he writing about? the radicalism, the zealots in the french revolution. they accused everybody of being zealots. and being traitors. and then they take them to the guillotine. everybody was a traitor. and here these people are calling joe biden a traitor for doing what joe biden has heard them saying, wanted to do all along. in oklahoma, james langford, one of the most conservative guys who criticizes bidenomics every day. he put together the most conservative bill on the border in a generation. everybody says that that is serious. and now you got these clowns going up there saying he is traitorous?

you've got hugh hewitt, for it, now he is against it. because donald trump's against it. newt gingrich goes on fox news last night and says this is the worst thing that's ever, ever, ever, ever happened. it's the dumbest, stupidest this, that, the other all because donald trump one day -- they like the bill and then donald trump said don't pass the bill, it might hurt me politically. now, traitorous, stupid -- >> turn the car around. >> they turned the car around. how sad and pathetic. if somebody came up to me when i was in congress and told me to can that, i would have had two words for them, and the second would be off and i would keep walking. i wouldn't even break a stride. most of the people i served with were that way, too. which again begs the question,

who are these cowards that just completely comply with everything dear leader says? >> is there anything they wouldn't do for him? >> nothing. there is nothing. >> mike johnson said publicly on tv and interviews, i talked to the former president almost every day, and he is telling us not do this. so we have been clamoring for generations and more specifically in recent months, all of a sudden we are against it. >> willie, they will not fund israel right now. because donald trump does not want this bill to go through. they are allowing vladimir putin to beat ukraine. he now has the advantage over there because donald trump wants vladimir putin to win. and mike johnson has gone right along, voting against every bit of funding all along for ukraine, and, you know, i wonder

where are the pro-ukrainian republicans? where are the reagan republicans? i thought chairman mccaul would be fighting. i haven't heard anything from him about this. does he want the ukrainians to keep dying, getting pounded bit russian invaders? is this his legacy? this is the house's legacy, by the way. this is a house's legacy right now. and i hope mccaul and i hope the rest of them have great time telling their children and grandchildren that vladimir putin was back on his heels, but he rushed through, he finally got ukraine, then he started going to the balkan states, the rest of eastern europe all because they were more afraid of donald trump. than they were for freedom. it's really -- it's just -- it's a -- >> and the leadership in ukraine says outloud, the future of this war is in the hands of the united states congress.

that's it. full stop. it's up to them, says ukraine. the co-founder and ceo of axios, jim, good morning. so what's your view on this -- back to the immigration deal for a second. as joe said, senator langford has the biden administration now agreeing to things that would have been unthinkable just a few months ago on immigration policy. they feel like they have the best available deal and that they -- the house should take it while they can. what is your sense? have any chance of getting out of the senate, because all of a sudden that is falling apart a little bit on the republican side, but when it gets to the house we heard from a host of republicans that it's going nowhere. >> yeah, i think it has a realistic chance ever getting out of the senate. it's one of the most conservative if not the most conservative bill that we have seen, maybe in our lifetime in terms of clamping down on what's going to happen at the southern border. it has no chance of being signed into law, even though president biden has made it clear he would sign it. and it's because it's trump's party and trump's opposed to it

and he has his executioner and that's johnson and the rest of the leadership in the house. they made it clear it's dead. it's dead. i don't see any chance it would pass. >> is this something that democrats can use against republicans? for killing the best border bill? >> yeah. i think that the -- you know, on friday the president said he would sign it, would shut down -- i mean, said he would shut -- give the authority to shut down the border and he will do it the day he signs the people. the people who have no credibility are the house republicans, right? and you have senate republicans with credibility. mitt romney said what happened to the senate republican caucus we are not going to act -- that the leader doesn't want to move this bill because trump doesn't want it. you have had house republicans say the same thing outloud. you have biden saying i will do this. i mean this is -- this is maybe his biggest vulnerability, president biden's biggest vulnerability in the election and trump and the house

republicans have mismanaged this in a way they have handed him the act finally to break through about what they have been doing on the border, what they are willing to do, and you know it's not going to convince trump supporters, but it will convince swing voters. >> he needs to go to the border. he needs to stand at the border and say i want to shut down the border. >> and everything he has done -- >> donald trump won't let me. i want to shut down the border with a bill that republicans call the toughest border security bill ever. i want to shut down the border. donald trump won't let republicans do it. >> he needs to go to the border and do that and he needs to go to have the same conversation with the israelis. joe biden has to confront the opposition and use the power the bully-pulpit, the oval office. that's what's left now. both cases he has implacable people who won't go along. >> jim, tell us about these

techno optimists. >> i don't know. >> what are you talking about? >> i'm happy to illuminate for you. >> thank you. >> i don't love the name techno optimist. i think you have to look at what's been happening with that group of people, whether it's mark andreason, ben horowitz, elon musk. a group of people who helped i think bring rfk to life, a lot of them raised money for him, made him a formidable third-party candidate. it's the way that desantis got into the campaign initially. david sacks was helping him out. they did -- made the announcement on twitter. they now have a platform. if you look at -- step back, you might love or hate twitter, or x as it's now known, but very much went from mainstream media group think to this group of tech folks who have a clear ideology,

they say is anti-dei, anti-woke, anti-elite conventional thought. >> i mean, jim, it's like this. it's sort of -- it's kinda like this, this bro culture. it's sort of like this libertarian bro culture. they hate the media. they hate, you know, government stepping in unless they need billions of dollars from the government. i mean, it's bunch of bros with a bunch of money and don't want anybody telling them anything. >> white middle age. you could say bros. i would not underestimate the number. look at podcasting -- >> i'm not. >> joe rogan, "all in," lex fridman. the network is real. i think they are following this largely, white working class men. do they matter in elections? seems like they do, right, especially in swing states. >> yeah, no, no, no i'm not

estimating. i'm just saying they -- you are a big fan. >> maga in a tight t-shirt, yeah. >> in a tight black t-shirt. it is like donny when donny would wear the -- >> shut it down. >> yeah. >> too early. >> you know, it is -- >> coming on soon -- >> out of the peter thiel school and they all look up to elon musk. they think elon is king and think he is really cool and they hate the media. again, they hate anybody that tries to hold anybody to account out there. >> there is, like, a sports overlap. joe rogan and aaron rodgers and all that. they do matter because this is a trump base in some ways. i am not sure -- i mean, how much influence have they had? they got ron desantis in the race. how did that turn out? rask is polling whatever rfk is

polling at. they like a lot of things that get going butner quite take off. >> co-founder and ceo of axios, a techno optimist -- >> by the way -- >> jim, we wanted to get you the morning after, the packers had just -- i thought just extraordinary showing in the playoffs. man, you know, that nfc north has gone from like one the weakest divisions to the one to watch next year. it's going to be great, huh? >> i'm with you on the lions. for one day, the day of my life i was a lions fan, actually wished they would have won. whatever. packers. future is write. jordan love. we'll be all right. >> and the bears behind you. the bears are looking good, to. >> the bears suck, joe. [ laughter ] >> straight from the mouth of green bay.

jim. >> coming up, former president trump tries to take credit for the booming stock market, but the biden white house isn't having it. steve rattner is standing by at the southwest wall to explain what's really going on. the u.s. economy. "morning joe" is coming right back. joe" is coming right back a subway series footlong. except when you add a new footlong sidekick. like the boss with the new footlong cookie. this might be my favorite sidekick ever. what? every epic footlong deserves the perfect sidekick.

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♪♪ ♪♪ donald trump is trying to take credit for the booming u.s. stock market that we're seeing. >> he said the stock market would crash. >> he wants it to so he can be the savior. >> he said if joe biden is president, it's going to crash. >> it's not doing that. on a day where the dow and s&p closed at record highs, the former president wrote on social media in all caps, quote -- >> all right. we are not going to read this.

no. no. we don't get it both ways, big boy. >> he can't defame e. jean carroll anymore. the biden campaign responded to trump's claims writing in a statement to the hill, thank you, donald for lifting up today's strong economic news, but on this planet, joe biden is the president. >> hear, hear. >> meanwhile, critics of the biden administration are having to admit how well the economy is doing. "the washington post" on sunday laid out the case that united states has had the world's best recovery post-pandemic. on fox business yesterday, steve forbes was asked about that headline. >> are they right? is america, does america now have the best recovery? >> well, yes. >> it does? >> the rest of the world is doing poorly. germany is the weakest developed country in the world. fem nominal. a reason, because of their green policies which tripled the price of electricity. britain, same thing.

barely ridge sterring any growth. japan dead in the water. china, we know the problems there. the reason the economy is doing so well is government spending. how long can you keep that up? ask argentina where that leads you. the crazy way they do gdp, count gft spending as a plus. that's why the sofia vergara looked so good so long and east germany looked so good is government spending counts as a positive thing like private investment. we know that's nonsense. i'll bet that the next time kgp or the president takes any kind of questions inform any kind on the economy, that "washington post" article is going to be there front and center. we have got the best recovery. that's a good political slogan in an election year. >> well, because we have the best recovery. i am not exactly -- i know, steve, i love steve, not exactly sure the middle part, what he was saying, yeah, we have the best -- but we have the best recovery, the best post-covid recovery.

we got into a little trouble because donald trump had two massive covid spending bills that dwarfed joe biden's. >> after you -- >> after there was too much money there. >> people died. >> yeah, we have the best economy in the world. and you can go -- i mean, ask anybody. you can ask -- like the most conservative writers for "the wall street journal" were saying it on the editorial page. why? because we have the best economy in the world. since donald trump left office. let's bring in right now -- should we talk -- >> no, stay right here in your chair. >> i'm a rambling man today. >> steve rattner's got it. he is going to handle it from here on, okay? steve rattner. >> hi, steve. >> what's going on with the economy? >> what's going on with the economy? >> i think joe should come over here and do my charts for me.

>> no. >> i want to touch the screen. >> like vanna. >> a baby inflation. >> steve, take it away. >> look, the idea of steve forbes comparing us to argentina and the soviet union is utterly and completely ridiculous. we have, in fact, the best economy in the world and we have it for a variety of reasons. including a lot of policies that were put in place in the last year over joe biden. let's take a look at economic growth. many people have talked, including myself, worried about recession as we try to wring out inflation. that's not what we've gotten. strong growth has exceeded estimates in almost every quarter. we grew 3% last year. that is a healthy rate of gross. best news for joe biden is the idea of a recession has come out of the economists' forecasts for the most part. growth might be a bit slower this year than it was in the past, it is still strong, healthy, and consistent. so on the growth side, the economy is looking good.

obviously, we had enormous inflation and inflation has outperformed in the positive sense of coming down what i think almost any of us thought was possible. you can see -- this is what we call core inflation, this takes out energy and food, which tend to bounce around a lot and looks at the core of the economy. this is what the fed likes to look at when it sets straits. interest rates. it got up to 6%. that was unfortunate. variety of reasons. but the drop in it has been almost faster than anything i can remember in my time doing this, and in the last two quarters the core inflation rate was down to 2%. that is the fed's target. >> steve, you say one the fastest drops you have seen. what's caused caused that? >> a lot of it was the fact that the government is spending money. it's what happened was that the government leaned in, a variety of programs, the infrastructure

bill, the inflation reduction act and so forth. it created jobs and got the economy going. we have this incredibly fast rate of production for alternative energy sources, solar and wind and all that creates jobs. >> let's talk about the jobs. talk about how the job growth keeps going. >> sure. again, the great american jobs machine, as we like to call it, has been chugging along. you can see down here the 2000-2019 average. that's donald trump's average. we have exceeded that in most months. we have also exceeded what the economists thought was going to happen. we have this steady, consistent jobs growth. we're going to have another number on friday. looks like it will be 175,000 new jobs again created. unemployment is down below 4%. that has long been considered

full employment. then the part that, again, many people don't appreciate -- look, inflation was worse than we wanted and hoped it would be, but nonetheless, people have continued to outpace inflation. in 2004 the average worker's income went up by 1.6% more than inflation. you look here at the 2017-2019 average. you can call that the donald trump era. you had a tenth of a percent of growth and wages after inflation. we had 1.6% last year. what also isn't on this chart is wages are growing faster for those at the bottom than those at the top. so income inequality is still huge, but it is narrowing. coming up, united auto work

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choose payroll compliance without the ups and downs. that's working with gusto. speaking of trump, over the weekend he held a rally in las vegas. during his speech, he went on and on about his cognitive test. >> a lion, a giraffe, a whale and a shark. they'll say which one's the lion, okay? a chair, a hat, a badge, a necklace and a boat. i said, good, what's going on? [ laughter ] >> right after that, a video interrupted him that said -- >> i'm nikki haley and i approve this message. >> that's pretty good. welcome to the -- >> come on, the guy's not well. you've known donald for a long time. >> he's not well.

>> when you have a man that is on the brink of losing everything, does not act like $83 million and he doesn't know what the other cases will bring, it could wipe him out. he never had the money he claimed and now that's gone. there's not even a firm probably that will put the money up like they did the $5 million. >> maybe ivanka will help. >> he's got four criminal trials and 91 felony counts. he has reason to not be able to remember the difference between nikki haley and former speaker nancy pelosi. >> or barack obama and joe biden. for the democrats that are still

despairing, don't despair. start working. >> first of all, one of the things that strong men throughout history have usd is a combination of a sense of strength and a sense of victimhood that makes their followers want to rush to their defense. his weirdness helps him in certain ways. we're starting a new series called "get busy for 2024." it is suggesting that there's so much despair right now, so much dread. i know some people who are like, this is going to be so dangerous and he might really win and so little action. people are waiting for criminal trials, waiting for things to play out. so we're suggesting that people actually do stuff. we're going to suggest a specific thing in this get busy series every week. this week we're starting with my

favorite thing called deep canvassing, which is a form of deep political engagement where instead of doing one minute at the door when you knock on doors, you spend as much time as you can with not mobilizing your supporters, with conflicted voters, with people who are all over the place. you go deep with, why are you so afraid of the border, what's behind that? it's citizens engaging in nonviolent engagement over the hardest issues. it's been proven by political scientists to be remarkably effective. it's something you can get trained in and do on the phone, in your neighborhood. it's remarkable. >> you talk to a lot of republicans. we were discussing this a couple of hours ago. you talk to a lot of republicans. they don't think joe biden is going to be the democratic nominee. you talk to a lot of democrats. they still can't believe donald

trump will ever be the nominee. so much of what we're seeing now with these polls, they're thinking somebody else will run. they're not. these are the two people we're going to have. >> this is why last week after trump won new hampshire, the statement from biden was, he is going to be the nominee, because the biggest obstacle to people being for biden is people not thinking donald trump is going to be the nominee. once they get over that obstacle, then they find in focus groups people are going to come biden's way. >> by the way, willie, i'm not so sure nikki haley is ready to go off the stage just yet. as long as you're in there fighting, anything is possible. >> she's maybe too little too late, but she's doing the thing a lot of people wish she had done a long time ago, which is leading with her criticism of

donald trump and the stakes of the election. sure, she folds joe biden in with donald trump when she says these guys are too old, but at least there's someone there saying these things about donald trump. the biden campaign is using her as an asset, saying, here's a republican saying the things about donald trump that have to be said, and it's not just us. >> nikki haley is living rent-free in his head, because she's exposing donald trump to parts of the republican audience that perhaps team biden can't get to and perhaps uncovering, finally to some, how brash and rude he can be. you never know. i think her existence can very productive. >> biden wants everybody to know trump is going to be the nominee and wants nikki haley to stay in the race. she is making really effective arguments. for people to hear that from a

republican is a big deal. >> let's talk about the battle over the southern border, because it is escalating as house republicans are pushing ahead this morning with an effort to impeach the homeland security secretary. this move comes as they look to tank a potential border deal struck by a bipartisan group of lawmakers. capitol hill correspondent ryan nobles has the latest. >> reporter: more than 1700 miles away from the u.s. capital, migrants entering the united states at a record clip, leading to overworked border guards, a system at a breaking point and human lives in the balance. in eagle pass, texas, a young migrant girl attempting to cross into the united states through the rio grande river, caught in the current and forced to be rescued. back on capitol hill, republicans are putting the blame scarily on the biden administration. >> joe biden has turned every community into a border community with his failed

policies. >> reporter: so much so that today they'll move articles of impeachment against homeland secretary alejandro mayorkas for breech of public trust. democrats argue this move is a political stunt. >> house republicans have clearly turned their ever shrinking majority over to the extremists and this sham impeachment of secretary mayorkas is another sad example. >> reporter: a bipartisan group of senators are working to hash out a deal to give president biden more authority to regulate border crossings. this after a record number of migrants came into the country in december. more than 370,000 overall with nearly a quarter million illegal crossings at the southern border alone. >> if that bill were law today, i'd shut down the border right

now and fix it quickly. >> reporter: while republicans have been pushing for changes, their de facto party leader, donald trump, is undermining negotiations before the bill is even released. >> please blame it on me, please, because they were getting ready to pass another bad bill. >> reporter: leading to another partisan showdown in washington while the crisis at the border continues to escalate. >> it's very simple. joe biden is saying pass the law, i'll shut down the border. trump is saying, keep the border open, wreck the economy, destroy america so i can get reelected again. i don't know how the republicans have done it. they are exceptionally stupid at this political game, but they've actually turned joe biden's biggest political weakness into his biggest political strength. now he needs to go to the

border, stand there and say, republicans, you have the bill, pass it, i'll sign it, and we will shut down the border, period. >> this is a bill that even a few months ago you couldn't conceive of a democratic president agreeing to. they've got him effectively on board, a bipartisan piece of legislation. in some ways, it's republican senators calling the bluff of the house, saying here it is, take the deal. they're going, well, if we talk the deal, then we give up the issue. donald trump alone is telling them not to do this. they've got a solution if they want it. they don't want it. the other thing to ask, as we've heard many members of the republican house caucus say, joe biden should use his executive authority. why didn't donald trump in his four years as president use executive authority if that's the way it can be used to fix the border, to build the wall that he chanted about for years?

>> trump did not build the wall. trump never used executive order. even though joe biden and those in the house, leader hakeem jeffries, would have some in the progressive wing that would even question this border deal, that has not even been an issue because the republicans have played into it so they don't have to get into a debate on the other side. i think this clearly shows that donald trump knows very little about really a long-term fighting and long-term political gain. to think that you would say keep the border issue out there, because i want to use it to beat up on donald trump, only a guy that would say that is a guy that would say help the economy tank because i don't want to be herbert hoover. oh, that's right, it's the same guy that did both. >> here's the deal.

facts which don't ever matter in this immigration debate to republicans. number one, when donald trump first ran for president and was running around screaming about building the wall, illegal border crossings were at a 50-year low under barack obama. he was making up a crisis that didn't exist. then because of this heated rhetoric after he became president, we did have a crisis at the border. did they build the wall? no. why? because republican senators lindsey graham, cornyn, even the most extreme anti-immigrant activists said building a wall is a second-century solution to a 21st century problem. they were saying a lot of things that joe biden is doing right now. again, they're making all of this up. now they're going to impeach mayorkas for not doing what they

refuse to do with this bill and they hold press conferences saying oh, joe biden, he's breaking all the law. again, they've got the bill. this could be solved tomorrow with the james lankford from oklahoma bill. >> i think it illustrates something significant. immigration is a very hard issue. it's an issue where there's internal disagreement on both sides. this is not a philosophical argument. it is a contest between one side that's interested in governing the country and trying to figure out things. >> you take james lankford, who wants to govern that part of the republican party that does, what are they doing to him now?

the oklahoma republican party is talking about sanctioning him, kicking him out, because he drafted the toughest immigration bill ever. donald trump decides, oh, no, i don't want the toughest immigration bill ever. now james lankford is getting kicked out of the republican party. >> the republican party is an s-corp. it is a sole proprietorship of one person. it is a person owned by one person, donald trump, for his exclusive benefit. everyone else is a subcontractor for that sole proprietorship. no one else matters. i think it's very important for biden to frame it as governing versus they're just doing it over there for them. this is also on issues like border and crime.

it's important not to become a b-plus copycat of republican talking points on the border. then you reenforce the fear that makes people vote for the right. you have to talk about we want an immigration system that respects all families. we want to talk in positive terms about immigration, to not entirely frame immigration as a negative thing that needs to be dealt with. >> you can use ronald reagan's words in his final speech talking about the importance of immigration. you can do that. you can also balance that with respect for the rule of law. we need an immigration system that is the kind of immigration system that ronald reagan talked about. we throw our arms open to the world. they come here and they make us younger, more vital and a better people. that's what ronald reagan said, right? not carl marx. that's what ronald reagan said. we just need to do that in a way

that maintains order at the border and that respects the law. >> that's biden's opportunity, being able to hold two truths. >> the fair, humane, legal immigration system. also pressure mounting now on president biden to respond to the drone attacks that killed three americans in jordan. keir simmons has the latest. >> reporter: this morning, questions over how a drone laden with explosives evaded defensives on this american base in jordan and what the u.s. response should be. the family of breonna alexsondria moffett from georgia, one of three killed on the base known as tower 22, speaking to nbc news. >> we would like to know what happened and how could this happen. >> reporter: it's the first time american servicemen and women

have been killed by what the u.s. says was an iranian-backed militia since the war in gaza began. despite waves of attacks, iran insists it did not direct the attack, but it appeared to be relatively sophisticated, flying low, possibly tricking the base's defenses by flying in at the same time as an american drone. the service members' families still grieving. >> just make sure she knew that she wasn't alone. >> reporter: 46-year-old sergeant william jerome rivers was from new jersey and specialist kennedy ladon sanders, who was 24, was from georgia. >> always very liked by everyone. she's a dedicated friend, teammate, well-liked and a very

joyful, bright personality. >> reporter: the president vowing to respond. the u.s. could decide to strike iranian-linked groups or commanders in the region or send a stronger message with a strike on iran itself. the biden administration under pressure. >> i think it's important to go after iran. it's because they're behind all of these attacks. >> reporter: amidst calls to avoid an escalation that might pull the u.s. into a wider war. >> we do not seek war with iran, but we have and we will continue to defend our personnel. >> tragic news for those three families. joining us now, democratic member of the house armed services committee common jason crow of colorado. he's a united states army veteran who served in both iraq and afghanistan. as someone who has seen friends

die in iraq and afghanistan, you know what this means. let's talk about your role as a congressman and how the president of the united states should proceed here. you heard republicans say go at tehran. you've heard others say let's take a measured approach. how do you view this? what is an appropriate response to the attack that killed three american service members? >> you said exactly the right thing. this is not theoretical. these are our sons and daughters our brothers and sisters that are in harm's way. actions have consequences. i join the rest of the country in mourning with those families the loss of their loved ones. so the next step is we have to respond. the president has been very clear about that. we always respond at a time and manner of our own choosing. we don't allow others to dictate how we respond. that's number one. number two, we have to make sure we don't set off a cascading effect of unintended

consequences. unlike some leaders in washington, some members of congress who love to make tough statements and talk tough on twitter and on social media, when you're actually a military commander, when you're the commander in chief, actions have consequences, and you have to deal with those consequences. so we have to take our time, make sure we're doing this right, that we're responding in a strong way, but not in a way that makes this worse. >> actions have consequences. perceived inaction also has consequences. that's one reason many believe we have three americans who are dead today, because we have been under attack constantly. obviously iran, the houthi rebels, people who consider us their enemies have not been deterred. so i understand what you're saying about the need to be measured. at the same time, there is a need to send a message, a very

strong message and stop these attacks against americans. what do we do? >> there's no doubt about that. i don't disagree with that. but if people think we have not been doing anything, that there has been inaction, they are not paying attention to what's happening. we have surged incredible amounts of resources into the middle east, aircraft carrier, battle groups, additional aircraft. >> i get that, congressman. but where's the deterrence? how do we use our weapons? how do we use our ships? how do we use our troops? how do we use them to deter future attacks against americans? >> well, that's exactly the process that we're going through right now. we're looking through all the different scenarios and courses of action. this is how we do it. we don't just have a gut instinct, oh, we've been attacked, we're just going to bomb. we look at every course of action. then we do the scenario planning

and we determine what every course of action would lead to and what the potential consequences of that is. we're chi're actually going thr that right now. the president's advisors are walking him through the courses of action that would accomplish the goal of showing strength and deterring, but not make it worse. we do not want to go to war with iran. nobody's interests are served by that. >> it wasn't like this attack was the first attack. it's been going on for quite a while. again, yes, want the white house and everybody else to have a reasoned, rational approach to this. give me your time frame. again, i understand we don't want people going out and shooting missiles wildly there. it's not what we do. at the same time, we've had this happening now for well over a

month. at what point do we put the right combination of responses together that actually deters iran and all of their agents from trying to kill americans? >> first of all, the implication is we haven't been responding. that's not true. >> you're not listening. with all due respect, you're not listening. i'm talking about deterrence. we responded. i've been paying attention. i read newspapers. once in a while i do news shows. so, yes, we've been responding, but we haven't gotten the deterrence that we need from those responses. again, my question is, how do we stop three more americans from being killed tonight? >> i don't disagree with yo here. we have to up our deterrence.

there's no doubt about it. this continues to get harder for us and worse for our troops there's no doubt. we don't want to lose control of the situation is what i'm saying. we have to be strong, but we can't lose control of the situation. when are we going to respond? i cannot tell you that right now. i'm not going to sit here and say we're going to respond at 3 p.m. this afternoon. first of all, i don't know the answer to that, nor should i because i'm not the commander in chief. secondly, we're not done with that planning process yet. we have to make sure we're responding in a smart way, because it's easy for both of us to sit here right now and have a discussion about we need to be tough and go after them. that's the easy part. the tough part is doing this in the right way and preventing it from getting worse as well. >> democratic congressman jason crow of colorado, thank you very much for being here, and thank

you even more for your service to this country. >> for sure. >> why don't you jump in here? >> oh no, i'm next. >> i'm only saying what a majority of americans are saying and thinking today, right? so you hear talk, as we've heard this morning, oh, well, we've been doing this. okay. well, we have three dead americans. iran is not deterred by anything we've done. so what's the next step? >> i think that it is easy to ramp up. it's hard to ramp down. i think that's their calculation, is that it's more important to go to take this operation by operation. i think they're judging as they go along. you don't want to overshoot and

get us mired in something more difficult. you don't want to take actions that are going to raise gas prices either. you don't want to get more mired in this. so they're making a judgment that it's more important to be prudent and go in a more thoughtful direction than to take quick action. i mean, that's what their judgment is. >> i get it. just so people at home know, there have been dozens and dozens of attacks against u.s. forces, whether in iran or syria or in the region from iranians or from iranian-backed militia. that's the question. if we're going to have troops there and they're going to continue to be attacked, you know, you have to protect your troops. if you're not going to protect your troops, you need to take them out of the region. >> to me, the first clause you said there, if we're going to have troops there, i think this

is not a discussion we have enough when talking about these issues. i'm curious. i don't feel like it's been really explained by our leadership in recent years why we are in a lot of these places. a lot of americans only find out about these outposts when people are killed there. we're sending soldiers into maybe situations they shouldn't be in. we can respect the congressman's service and know he served in a war that shouldn't have happened in iraq. president biden pulled us out of afghanistan after 20 years of the most powerful country in history not able to achieve its goals. we're in yemen. i don't think people understand exactly what we're doing in yemen. what is this outpost doing in syria and jordan? we don't really do congressional authorization of wars anymore. we just kind of skip that part of the constitution.

i don't know. i feel like we're just ambling into phase whatever of the forever war, which is unauthorized, which is unchosen, which is undeliberated in a democracy. democracy isn't just protectioning against insurrection. we're just sending people more and more into obscure, shadowy, unchosen, undiscussed conflicts, and we only hear about them when we die. >> the united states does need to understand when the united states gets involved in syria, 500,000 people die. it was the most massive immigration crisis in europe since world war ii. you talk to members of the obama administration about that. i can't speak for you, but i certainly have talked to a lot of members of the obama administration who looked back on the decision to not get involved and allow half a

million human beings to be killed and cause the greatest immigration crisis since world war ii. they will tell you that was one of the low points, they believe, of their time in the white house and wish they had done more. you can look at iraq as well. when we withdrew our troops, i was one of those people who said, hey, we've been there long enough. but we withdrew all our troops overnight in iraq, and isis built up. you knew what was going to happen. you knew we were going to have to go back over there. president obama wanted to move past the bush/cheney legacy. he didn't want to go back, but he knew we had to go back and wipe out isis, because it kept growing and growing.

we just talk about why troops are here or there or in syria. i can tell you right now there are troops in syria that are holding iran back, that are holding assad back, that are holding the russians back. they're doing extraordinary things, but we don't hear about them until somebody's killed. we need to have that debate. i totally agree. >> we need to have that debate, and we need to understand how do we select where we go. like, the atrocities in sudan right now are not even being discussed. why do we choose one rather than another? whose interests are we serving? let's not get past what these families said and one of them saying how did this happen. how did this drone go in and kill these people? was there some failure in terms

of what we were doing since we put people in danger's way? people need to understand as we have these debates, people who consider themselves on our side of the political spectrum, these people where we go hate all americans. these three soldiers were all young blacks. so it's not like they're saying we're with your cause so we're going to distinguish between americans. they go after everybody, which is why everybody needs to weigh in on how we deal with this and where we choose to go. coming up on "morning joe," donald trump blasts the head of the united autoworkers you know for endorsing president biden last week. uaw president shawn fain joins us next with reaction to trump's comments. com comments

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welcome back. oh, look at that pretty shot of san francisco. >> willie, did i get this right? are these far right wing whackadoodle sites saying if taylor swift is cheering for the kansas city chiefs, that they have to cheer for san francisco? >> they've really twisted themselves in knots because taylor swift is on the other side. today we are all san francisco, say qanoners. >> i'm so confused. well, former president trump is lashing out at the head of the united autoworkers for endorsing president biden last week and for these comments over the weekend. take a look. >> joe biden has a history of serving others and serving the

working class and fighting for the working class, standing for the working class. donald trump has a history of serving himself and standing for the billionaire class. that's contrary to everything that working class people stand for. >> trump blasted uaw president shawn fain on his social media platform accusing him of, quote, selling the automobile industry right into the powerful hands of china. adding, quote, get rid of this dope and vote for donald trump. i will bring the automobile industry back to our country. >> let's bring in shawn fain right now. shawn, i know that you're a sensitive man and i know these words from donald trump with his -- what did he have? bone spurs. >> it's very painful. >> i know it upsets you a great deal. talk about what's at stake in this election for workers, and talk about what's at stake for

those people in your own union that are, yeah, yeah, i know he supports billionaires and multinational corporations, but i just kind of like him, i'm going to vote for him. >> you know, thanks for having me. honestly, what this all comes down to when we look at this election is, are we going to continue to go forward, or are we going to go backwards? >> trump's billionaire economy, trump's tax breaks that 85% of the benefit went to the 1% and never expired. meanwhile, the benefits for workers had an expiration date. you look at what he's done and what joe biden has done. it's a real clear picture. donald trump did not stand with working class people when he had the opportunity as president. we had the gm 40-day strike in 2019. donald trump was completely

silent, never said a word. we had lordstown assembly plant slated to close. donald trump told people, don't sell your houses and blamed the local union president, which was a complete joke. with joe biden, a plant in illinois was slated to close. joe biden got involved. we worked together and we found a solution. he added a second plant there and also saved a dying community. joe biden joined us on the picket line and stood with us. trump put anti-union people on the board and killed organizing. 75% of members supported us in our contract fight because the principles we're fighting for, wages, benefits, health care, retirement security, getting our lives back. that's what matters to working class people. donald trump doesn't want any of

that for working class people. he views the term weapon of mass destruction. the only weapon of mass destruction we've faced in the last 40 years has been corporate greed, because that's what drives this, and that's trump's world. >> talk about what happened during the strike for those watching that didn't follow it so closely. we had joe biden going on the picket line, first president in u.s. history to do that. what did donald trump do? >> again, it's a perfect contrast between the two candidates. you have for the first time in history a sitting u.s. president joining workers on the picket line, standing with them. and you had donald trump, who claims he supports the workers, who calls one of his business owner buddies in a nonunion factory and he goes there and has a rally claiming he's there for the union workers and the striking workers.

it's what donald trump does best. it's a rope a dope. he wants you to look over here while over here he's taking everything away. it's the divide and conquer tactic. that's what's worked for the billionaire and corporate class forever. they divide us over race, over gender. i heard you guys talking earlier about border security. even border security. when i look at that issue, i see my grandparents. when i see destitute people that are desperate trying to cross a border to find a better life in america, that we used to be the beacon of bring us your sick, your needy, your poor. i see my grandparents coming out of the depression. they found jobs in the uaw and it changed their lives. they lived the american dream. we can't let the billionaire and corporate class divide us over issues because that's how they win. the issues that matter to us and all working class people is having security in their lives,

having dignity when they're too old to work and too young to die. >> let's talk about the workers in your union a little bit and the future of the american autoworker. it's gone in waves here and the push towards electric vehicles seems to be a pullback on that in a moment. the biden administration has gone big saying that's going to create more jobs, which is where we're headed. how do you see the presence of the american autoworker and the future a few years down the road. >> look, you know, we embrace technology changes. you know, we always have. the uaw has always stood for a clean environment. what good's another dollar an hour in wages or another week's vacation if the place you go to take your vacation, you can't swim in the lake or breathe the air? it goes back to that. we don't know where this is

going to go, but we've put provisions in place. we've worked, again, with the biden administration to put provisions in place that no matter where this industry goes, whether it's electric, that working class people will continue to benefit and we'll have better standards, not a race to the bottom, which is what donald trump drives. we can't be afraid of change. we've covered both ends of the spectrum. whatever technology comes down the road, we'll embrace that also. wherever this market goes, our workers are going to be okay. >> shawn, as we approach this election and you've made this endorsement, you've looked at the polls and those that have said there's not a lot of energy in terms of people turning out. what will labor do that now uaw and others have endorsed biden,

to energize the union members to come out and vote? because all of this is moot if your endorsement does not carry the weight of bringing out members and other union leaders. >> this endorsement and this election, it's about a hell of a lot more than just organized labor, but organized labor has to lead this fight, and we're going to lead it. this is about humanity. where do we want to go as a nation? do we want to continue on this 40 or 50-year downward spiral we've been on, where we have this massive income inequality, this wealth gap? i read the other day an economic policy institute study where in a 40-year period from '79 when reagan took over in '80 to 2022, the top 1% wages increased 344%. the bottom 90% of us in america increased 32%. if you factor a 3% average

inflation a year, we weren't anywhere near keeping up with inflation, while the billionaire class and the wealthy took all the profits. that's what this is all about. we have to focus on humanity. there's a reason why trump wants to cut social security and medicare and health care, because they want to concentrate all the wealth in their hands, take everything and leave everybody else fending for themselves. labor is going to lead this fight. we're in it. our members have to look at the reality. we have to look at facts. that's why our contract campaign was so successful, because we put the facts out there of the gross inequality of the few at the top and everyone else at the bottom. we have to look at fiction, not alternative facts or lies, as trump likes to talk about, real facts. the facts are very clear.

>> president of the united autoworkers shawn fain, thank you very much for coming on the show. >> thanks for having me. still ahead on "morning joe," climate change is an issue many americans are concerned about, but according to our next guest, there are reasons to stay positive. emmy-nominated actor and "game of thrones" star nick lie joins us. ku oins us

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force factor uses the highest quality ingredients to deliver powerful, healthy results from delicious and convenient supplements. that's why friends and family recommend force factor. rush to walmart and unleash your potential with force factor. around the world people are working for a better tomorrow. >> what we're doing is mind blowing. >> it's supposed to be supposedn neutral jet fuel. >> we grow vegetables, but to me, we give life. >> i believe our history is written and we look back at this moment in time, this will be

when we started to transform the way we live to inform the future we want. >> this is thinking outside of the box. >> that was part of the trailer from the bloomberg original series titled "an optimist's guide to the planet." it follows nicolae waldow as he and his team travel the globe to meet the people facing down humanity's most pressing environmental challenges. nicolae joins us now, he also serves as a producer on the series. >> i like it. >> i want to know about the worm. >> i like it. >> we'll get to that in a second, but -- >> is it real? >> it is real, yeah. >> you're an optimist. that's good. we like optimists. that said, in the first episode,

you go to greenland and talk about how -- about -- >> that's where his wife is from. >> right. 2,000 square miles of the ice cap has retreated since 1985. >> yeah. >> that's not optimistic. >> well, we went there -- >> make us happy. >> we went there because it is kind of seen as the canary in the coal mine. it is always the image of climate change. >> right. >> we did a story there, we meet this geologist, he's part of the solution. what happens every year, has been happening for thousands of years, all this glacier is washed out. we have billions and billions of tons of this thing. and it can store co2 and it is incredible fertilizer. you can take that to parts of the world where they don't have -- where they have bad soil. and it was just so -- you can turn greenland into a simple of the solution. but what we found was that it is

a global show. we travel all over the world. and the reason i wanted to do it, i worked with -- as a global ambassador, going around the world to see these projects and the messaging becomes very much about the problem. like we know we have a massive problem when it comes to climate change but we focus on the messaging and not the fact we have solutions, we have the biggest resource of all, us. if you look at what human beings created in history, it is insane. look at this, this building we're sitting in, this city we're sitting in, humans made this, and i refuse to believe that we're so stupid that we would mess up our own planet. >> it is such a good reminder. we have the doomsday clock and everyone says we're on the brink, are we past the brink of no return, we can't fix this problem. it is a good reminder in this space, in medicine, in politics, dare i say there are a lot of people working to do the right thing. >> also the fact is that it seems like we keep talking about

if we don't act, this is going found out is the people are acting. and it is happening all over. and it is a massive transition is already happening. i remember six years ago, in san francisco, at this event, and the final thing i had to do was drive an electric car around the corner. that's a big thing. today i'm from northern europe, most cars are electric. it is happening on a global scale. sometimes it is not just about high tech, it is also about looking back and seeing we had solutions before that worked, we just have to reinvent them or look at nature, you know, offering us solutions, you saw the worms, that was a biochemist in spain, she had as a hobby, she was a bee keeper. she had to clean up the beehives and found worms in there. she put them in a plastic bag. she comes back, sees the little holes and goes, that's interesting, i wonder what that is, do they just bite their way

out or was something else afoot. there was an enzyme in the saliva of these worms that dissolves plastic. it is just mind blowing. >> and is something happening with that? >> yeah. >> that's incredible. >> they're making more worms. >> the photography is amazing. in this clip, you discover scientists in australia are creating man made clouds to cool the ocean. take a look. >> there is two whole shipping containers, with big air compressors in there to generate the compressed air. and so what we see is that the plume actually gets sucked right up into the clouds. >> that's good, right? >> yeah, yeah, it is terrific. it makes life a lot easier. it means we're able to revise a lot of our calculations as to how many stations we need and how efficient we've been. per second, one of those

machines, we got two now, for one, it produces about a thousand billion droplets a second from about a shot glass of water a second. >> okay. you're smiling at me. is he making stories? >> this is the stuff of science fiction. creating man made clouds. tell us the benefit of these clouds, but also how difficult is that? can clouds be mass produced? >> that's above my pay grade. but what is exciting is it is a symbol of that thing about just let's just open our minds to what we can actually achieve. someone thought of it, well, the sun is heating up the oceans. it is a problem right now. this was the great barrier reef in australia, right. how can we just give them a band aid until we solve the other big issues and say let's make some clouds. and these guys came up with it and it actually works. they lowered the temperatures of the oceans. they put a cloud over and it is just a symbol of what humans can

achieve. and we found that -- we have -- to do the show, we had, like, so many stories from all over the world, and i know you said before, do we need -- is there reason for optimism? and i spoke to this one scientist in australia and he said, i'm an optimist, but not like i just want to be an optimist because it is a nice thing, it is based on the science, the work we do, we can see we can actually make a difference. and also the idea that we -- it is not like sometimeses people want to create this idea that there is ill intent, that the generations before us destroyed the future. no. it is not like we have people through the saying, yeah, i want to destroy this planet, i hate this place, no, we all want a better tomorrow and we got carried away before we discovered plastic is just incredible, maybe we should just slow down with this thing and the same with fossil fuels, it created so much wealth and prosperity and beauty in this world, but we have to now find another way. we have discovered that way doesn't work, it is not

sustainable in the long-term. but the solutions are out there. that's what the show is about. >> i hope your optimism about people not -- we're not so stupid that we would let these things happen, i hope you're right about that. go ahead, jen. >> tell us about some of the people you met. you're in all these different continents. the worms, making the clouds, farmers. a lot of different folks. is there something, like a characteristic that sort of that was -- that was uniform across the world? >> first of all, the whole concept is whether climate change is real or not and all that, that never came up. that happened everywhere, even in the tiniest village in africa, they're, like, no, we understand that. and also everybody had the same -- you know what's interesting, in our part of the world, there is apparently a couple of years ago, 50% of 18 to 25-year-olds don't believe in the future, believe we're doomed. that is really a problem. we need to address it. we're not doomed.

we have every reason to -- we will create a better world. we never -- i never met that, traveling outside our part of the world, there was nothing but positivity and optimism and belief that, of course we can solve these issues and we will. and these are kids that you could objectively speaking say they have, you know, harder odds than kids in our part of the world. and i don't know why that is. but just an observation. listen, there are, you know, we look at the world, we look at the news today, there are so many things that constantly hit us and you go, oh, my god, there is a war here and a war there. it is important to remind ourselves that if you just look back 50 years and where we were and where we are today, we're actually doing better on almost every perimeter. we have an issue with climate change. we're doing better all over. >> and optimist guide to the planet begins streaming on the bloomberg app, and bloomberg.com on february 8th. it will also air on bloomberg

tv. nicolae, thank you very much for sharing this with us. >> thanks so much. >> great work. thank you for giving us a reason to be optimistic. >> yes, we need it. >> all right. do we have any politically, willie? >> final thoughts. >> final thoughts are you are fantastic in "the game of thrones". that's my final thought of the day. >> jonathan lemire. >> i'm thinking of the worms and the plastic and the making of the clouds. it is nice there is a reason to be hopeful. it feels negative every day. >> that does it for us this morning. we'll see you back here tomorrow morning, 6:00 a.m. eastern. ana cabrera picks up the coverage right now. right now on "ana cabrera reports," breaking news on capitol hill, a hearing beginning right now on the push to impeach a sitting cabinet secretary for only the second time in u.s. history. can