he said yesterday the stock market is great because people are excited about him being president. how many more times are you going to let him lie about things that aren't true and say, you know what? something is not quite right. this also is about a general election. this is about who can win. he can't win moderates, independents, uburban women. he lost in 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022. how many more times do you have to lose before you say, maybe that's not the guy? >> how has trump changed politics for the good and the bad? >> he's made it chaotic. he's made it self-absorbed. he's made people dislike and judge each other. he's left that a president

should have moral clarity and know the difference between right or wrong. and he's just toxic. i mean, you know, i think a lot of the things he broke needed to be broken, but he doesn't know how to fix things again. it's not okay to just break. you've got to fix it and make it better. and he hasn't done that. >> republican presidential candidate nikki haley with that direct criticism of donald trump. >> that was pretty tough, huh? >> yes. in a moment, we'll show you new polling that has president biden leading trump in a hypothetical rematch, thanks to a major bump from two groups of voters. we'll tell you who they are. plus, the key moments from a contentious and dramatic senate hearing yesterday. >> ugh. >> with social media ceos. that hearing included a surprise moment from mark zuckerberg. >> yeah. >> really incredible. >> he should have kept that surprise to himself. i feel bad for you.

>> no, come on. >> i mean, it just seems so staged and preplanned. >> it was quite a moment of congressional theater. senator josh hawley having his moment of grandstanding, saying, "apologize to those people." zuckerberg turned around and gave an awkward, brief address to the families in the back who lost loved ones. >> yeah, it was discord. there was great bipartisan support there. >> yeah. >> i will say, also, talking about the bipartisan issue, this is a crazy new york story, mike barnicle. you have illegal immigrants in new york that beat the hell out of cops, they get sent to jail, and they're released the next day. >> oh, yeah. >> the next day. politicians say, "i don't understand. why do people think crime is out of control? i don't understand." you've got leaders in washington going, "well, you know, i don't think we can arrest people and

incarcerate them. i don't think that's the way to safer streets." all while they're passing legislation that says, "steal what you want to steal up to $1,000. we're cool with it." >> for people not familiar with what you're talking about, there are two police officers in very busy times square, and they began trying to arrest someone who was disrupting the peace. they were attacked by eight to ten, perhaps 12 other people, young men, migrants, illegal citizens, here illegally. they jumped all over the cops, kicked them, beat them. the cops managed, god bless the cops, they managed to arrest two or three. >> four. >> four of them, hold on to them. >> yeah. >> yet -- >> here's the security camera showing the assault of the police officers in new york. >> there you go. >> times square. they were just bounced.

>> they go in, and, again, because somebody's idea of reform is letting people who beat the hell out of cops out of jail the next day -- >> hmm, sounds -- >> -- i'm sorry, there's nothing racist about, you know, when people say, "oh, it's racist to have this, bail this, bail that." rev, you hear it. i hear it. you hear it wherever you go. revolving doors aren't a solution. letting somebody beat the hell out of a new yorker one day and be walking on the street the next? i mean, that's a recipe for chaos. >> well, you must look at the fact that these were physical attacks. these weren't not somebody you're letting out for doing something that was non-physical. >> right. >> secondly, with migrants, you're releasing them to go

where? even those of us that have fought for reform, there's a difference between reform and deform. this is deform. >> yeah. >> this is where you are really -- again, we need to deal with the migrant issue and deal with the crisis. i mean, national action network's downtown office is in times square. i'm around the corner from where this happened. to have people walking around, being able to do this, is not reforming and not aggressive. we need to deal with how we handle policing in a way that police, nor citizens, are victims of people who are reckless. we need to be mature about that. >> we'll talk to former new york city police commissioner bill bratton in a few minutes. he'll be here with us. governor hochul in the state was asked yesterday, should these men be deported? they're here at migrants, beating up cops. she said, yes, that's something that should be looked at. people tiptoed around this the last few years over this bail reform. actually, the budget that was

passed in albany just last year gave judges more discretion now. it used to be when they reformed bail in 2019, the judge had no discretion. >> right. >> they couldn't assess, this person is a threat. they shouldn't be put back on the subway to rob somebody today. they do have a little more discretion now, so the tide has shifted a bit. clearly, if these guys are just put back on the street after beating up cops, not enough. >> yeah, it's just insanity. >> also, you know, where would you put them? i mean, the jails are doubly filled, triply filled. riker's island is an explosion waiting to happen. >> it's the overlapping problems. you don't have enough room in the jails. should they be in the jails? if they're migrants, you're sending them back where? in communities that raise the issues of reform, we're not talking about that because we are, percentage wise, the highest victims of crimes. >> right. >> on one hand, we want to be protected. on the other hand, we don't want to be abused by the cops or the

robbers. >> it'd be a strong message if they could make the system work and get those attackers on planes, back to their home countries immediately. >> well, yeah. and the biggest problem right now, mika, is there is a solution. there is a solution. the solution is waiting for republicans to sign onto and to have it signed into law. it's called, by republicans, the toughest border security law ever. right now, you've got house republicans stopping it. >> because of donald trump. >> we're seeing chaos like this because of donald trump. as you can see, we have a lot to talk that. we'll come back to this. elise jordan and jonathan lemire with us, along with mike barnicle. we'll start with this. a new national poll shows joe biden beating donald trump in a hypothetical general election matchup. this is the latest quinnipiac university survey. biden leading trump by six points, 50% to 44% among registered voters.

that is outside the poll's margin of error, and up from a survey previously which biden was up by one point. independents now back biden by 12 points higher, twice as much as the previous poll. also, among women, where biden's lead is now 22 points up from 12 points in december. although the survey shows trump ahead of nikki haley in a republican primary, in a general election, haley leads biden by five points, 47% to 42%. yesterday, we reported on new polling from "bloomberg" in morning consult showing trump ahead of biden in seven swing states, underscoring just how close this race is believed to be. there was also a caveat to some of the polling that we talked about yesterday, where if he was convicted or found liable and guilty in one, two, or a number

of the cases, i don't know how many cases he has against him, that that could change and the support for him could leave. >> yeah. willie, i think this poll shows, like so many of the others, the race is up in the air. it's very fluid. it would make sense that independents and women would be breaking away from donald trump. they're doing the smart thing. they're attacking taylor swift and nfl football players. maybe the independents and women will come running back. >> it is a brilliant strategy. >> it is. >> james carville has his theory. >> james always has a theory about that stuff. yeah, i mean, the same way democrats shouldn't get too upset about a poll yesterday, maybe don't get too excited about this one. it is a long road to go. >> i would agree. >> but, as you always say, joe, you look at trend lines. a ten-point swing along women voters just in the last month, perhaps that's e. jean carroll. perhaps it's just seeing a lot more of donald trump, seeing the way he is treating nikki haley, by the way, as they go forward. by the way, when you look at the

second beat on that poll, it's the case nikki haley has been making. maybe it is too late. mike and i heard her say it last week in new hampshire, don't come crying to me in november when joe biden beats donald trump. >> yeah. >> i'm the one who beats joe biden, and you have a chance to put me there. good trends anyway for joe biden. >> good trend lines for joe biden. i think it is something else, too. if donald trump has been running a strongman, i'm strongman, and he stumbles out and bumbles his way through speeches and sounds like -- >> random speeches. >> the spray, really sprayed on. >> it is rudy at the end. >> it is rudy. but he is babbling. i'll tell ya what, when he messes up now, he has an opponent that says, "oh, 3 seconds ago in new hampshire, donald trump said this," and the biden campaign puts it up. here's their latest ad. >> donald trump is truly confused. >> nikki haley is in charge of security. we offered her 10,000 people.

they don't want to talk about that. >> he didn't just get me confused. he mentioned it over and over and over again. he's not what he was in 2016. he has declined. that's a fact. >> i mean, last time, we won 50 states, right? >> this is not donald trump of 2016, guys. >> what? what is -- >> if he is off the teleprompter, he can barely keep a cogent thought. i mean, that's just fact. >> we are an institute and a powerful death penalty. we will put this on. >> i think he's declining. >> i stumbled and mumbled purposely. i do speak in long, complex sentences. i have a lot of material in each sentence. you have voter id to buy a loaf of bread. you have id to buy a loaf of bread. >> have you noticed? he's a little confused these days. >> a person close to trump actually says that he is rattled by biden's efforts to get under his skin. >> wow. >> oh, wow. >> voter id to buy a loaf of bread, one. two, you have id to buy a loaf

of bread. >> come on. >> he's going on and on. what is that, we are a very powerful institute death penalty? >> he famously won all 50 states in 2016, as he said. yeah, i mean, i'm watching. i think george w. bush has to be going, you made fun of me? what about this? >> yeah. >> the moment where he confused, not a slip of the tongue, but again and again nikki haley and nancy pelosi was a moment for some people. >> right. >> who thought, maybe he really is losing it. >> you actually see it, jonathan lemire, in real time, where he goes, nikki haley, nikki haley, nikki haley, and he is -- >> searching. >> -- searching for nancy pelosi's name. he goes on a little longer, and then he circles back to nancy pelosi. then, you know, a month earlier, he's trying to remember joe biden's name. he chokes on obama's name like he's got, like, you know, a

chicken wing in his throat. oba -- oba -- and then he keeps on walking through that. >> okay. >> he just goes back, hell, i can't remember who the president is, obama. we beat obama. i mean, it's -- it's one thing if you slip up. we all slip up. it is another thing if people see somebody, as nikki haley is saying, that is slowing down, that's struggling and trying to remember a name, and you see it live. again, it keeps getting worse. >> a senior biden campaign adviser told me just yesterday, where have y'all been on this? they're like, finally, people are paying attention to the idea that donald trump is slipping, that age is a vulnerability for him, as well. it's taken -- obviously, this show has been on this for some time, but i feel like it only broke through with much of the media because of the haley/pelosi moment we highlighted. in the last couple weeks, it is a real topic of political

conversation aided by nikki haley. the value of her staying in the republican race? you're seeing it right there. she's talking about it, and that allows the biden campaign to highlight words from a fellow republican. it is not just a partisan attack. it is another member of the gop reaching out to voters that simply joe biden would never be able to do so. this helps blunt some of the republican attacks on president biden's age. of course, he is known to make verbal missteps, as well. it gives them an attack line on donald trump to say, this is another example why he is unfit, unstable, not ready to be president again. yes, the polls are close, to your point a -- to willie's point a moment ago. no biden campaign staffer is doing cart wheels over the polls yesterday. they see the battleground states. it'll be won on the margins, which is why the president is going to michigan today. he knows the margin for error is slim, but this is a newly aggressive biden campaign. that's not going anywhere. >> with nikki haley, elise, it seems to me it makes perfect sense to stay in the race.

we're waiting, i guess any minute now, for the damages in the civil fraud trial to come down. who knows how these could impact former president donald trump? we've already seen a decline, and it's got to be from the stress. i think it would be smart for someone to be left standing to offer the republicans something. also, i think her attacks on donald trump perhaps expose his foibles to an audience that usually wouldn't be open to it. >> well, i think that is what nails it. she has been able to make headway with that message. no, donald trump is not just crazy, he actually is senile, too. she's been making headway with that message, and she's gotten in some pretty good hits. over the past -- you know, since new hampshire happened, what good hits has donald trump gotten in on nikki haley? he hasn't been able to attack her effectively. he hasn't been able to define her in the way he was with ron desantis.

>> no, he hasn't. >> it is because she is a woman. he is terrible when it comes to knowing an effective way of -- >> well, defaming the women. >> the $83 million thing. >> yeah. so he is not on high ground here when it comes to attacking nikki haley. >> rev, he is in a position he is not usually in. he's not striking back as aggressively. he's not going after e. jean. >> has he done anything? >> he has two women that has just, let's face it, they pounded him, his pocketbook, pounded him politically, so he's keeping his mouth shut on e. jean carroll who just won $83 million from him. really, for the most part, not going after nikki haley as aggressively as he would want to because he has his campaign people going, "please, please, the less you say, like, the easier our job is, donald. keep your mouth shut." >> i think that it is certainly

that, but i also think that it goes with the fact that he's losing it. let's not forget, he ran against a woman in '16 named hillary clinton, and he had no problem. he's losing it. >> i mean, you've known him for a long time. when you say he's losing it, like, you know it. >> he's losing it. his instinct is to fight back, punch back, and he would think, back in those days, that he was thinking clearer, if you want to ever call what he thought was clear. >> right. >> but he'd fight back and say, "they hit me. i can hit back." it reminded me, i was blessed in my younger days to know muhammad ali. ali told me one day toward the end of his career, "i saw the openings, and i just couldn't get the punch there. i couldn't." he said, "i knew where to go, sharpton, but i couldn't get the punch there." >> wow. >> "that's when i knew to leave the ring." the openings are there for trump. he can't get there. his mind is not there anymore. they need to take him out the

ring before he gets knocked out. >> right. >> there are two other elements that are going to play into this. one is his behavior, his anger. quite visible the night of the new hampshire primary when he was the sole winner, attacking nikki haley for the dress she was wearing, things like that. people get that. it is visible, his anger, his frustration, his rage, his inner rage. the other thing is there is going to be verdicts in some of these trials. >> right. >> a guilty verdict in one of the major trials, the january 6th trial, that gives a lot of people on the fence right now about donald trump an exit ramp. oh, well, that's too much. i can't vote for a guy who is a convicted felon and put him in the oval office. >> yeah, too much chaos. still ahead on "morning joe," senators on the judiciary committee demanded accountability from prominent social media ceos in a tense, dramatic hearing on capitol hill yesterday. we'll be joined by the chair of

the panel, senator dick durbin. as we mentioned, we'll talk to former new york city police commissioner bill bratton about the beating of two nypd officers by a group of migrants outside a shelter in midtown. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. when my doctor gave me breztri for my copd things changed for me. breztri gave me better breathing, symptom improvement, and reduced flare-ups. breztri won't replace a rescue inhaler for sudden breathing problems. it is not for asthma. tell your doctor if you have a heart condition or high blood pressure before taking it. don't take breztri more than prescribed. breztri may increase your risk of thrush, pneumonia, and osteoporosis. call your doctor if worsened breathing, chest pain, mouth or tongue swelling, problems urinating, vision changes, or eye pain occur. ask your doctor about breztri.

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conclusively identify each defendant and specify each participant's role in the incident. every defendant charged so far is facing felony charges that carry a penalty of up to seven years. this is an active, ongoing investigation. joining us to discuss this, former new york city police commissioner, now the executive chairman of teneo risk, bill bratton. and also on set, legal analyst danny cevallos. good to see you both. commissioner bratton, let's start with your thoughts about what we saw here. do you find it appropriate that these men, these suspects, were released bout bail? >> to be reflective of the criminal justice bail reform acts that new york put into effect several years ago, the idea that very few people are held to bail in new york city is a prime example of the failure of that law. the idea that these individuals assaulted these police officers, and look at the viciousness of that assault, kicking them in

the face, eight, ten of them attacking two police officers, no, it is not acceptable. it is reprehensible as the chief of patrol described it in his comments yesterday. >> danny, you know, the bail reform that went in in 2019 was seen as very lax. the judges had no discretion effectively to decide if the person was a threat. examples have been given about people being arrested for subway crimes, literally hundreds of times, the same people. it changed a little bit with the new budget last year. judges were given some discretion. where does it stand right now, particularly as you apply it to this case? >> bail reform has changed dramatically, and that's why when you asked commissioner bratton, he is from an era where this kind of thing wouldn't have happened. because of the law now, judges almost always must give either ror, release on own recognizance, or if it is bailable offenses, the judge can set bail, but then the judge has to take into consideration the

suspect, the defendant's ability to pay that bail. now, in the case of asylum seekers who may be staying at a shelter, their ability to pay bail financially, you can guess it's going to be pretty low. but a lot of this also depends on what the d.a.'s office is asking for. if it is a bailable offense, the d.a.'s office can ask for bail. that is a major question. to what degree did they push for bail? when you think about it, setting any money amount of bail for these defendants likely would have resulted of them being held in custody. they probably don't have a lot of resources to pay bail in the first place. >> so they would be in custody, and we would actually know who beat the hell out of the cops, rev. i mean, you put it best, this isn't stealing toothpaste from a cvs. this is kicking and beating the hell out of cops. i have a feeling this isn't what bail reformers were expecting. i mean, this is so excessive.

>> no, and i certainly was one that was pushing bail reform. this is not what we're talking about. this is, as i said, deform. where are you releasing them to? you're talking about assaulting police. by the way, we fought to get more minorities in the police department. that's one of the things that commissioner bratton and i did agree on. >> right. >> now, you're going to give a real and, in this case, it's hard to argue against it, justifiable attack on bail reform because you let some guys just kick a policeman in the face and walk? that's not what bail reform was about, and it is not what it should be about. these people assaulted a police officer clearly in times square. clearly, we do not know where they've been released to. >> geez. >> we can argue about how we deal with crime and protect civil liberties. we cannot argue that that is anything short of a criminal

act. >> federal offense. >> mike, you have politicians, not eric adams. eric adams seems to be fighting a lot of politicians for tougher laws, but you have a lot of new york politicians who are just clueless. >> well, i mean, here in new york city, i mean, the city council just voted overwhelmingly to overrideeric adams' veto of a law that's going to make police officers just bureaucrats. they'll have to put down, every time they stop and talk to a person, they have to file a report. a piece of paper or report. it'll waste an enormous amount of time. commissioner bratton, you've been in the business of policing america in several different cities, including new york city, for 50 years. so what happens to the average police officer's morale, his attitude on the daily job, where so much is expected of police officers today, and police officers know that everything and almost anything they do, someone is going to record it on a cell phone camera when they get out of that cruiser?

what happens to their sense of morale and obligation when they see people like these eight or ten people, young men, who beat the hell out of two new york city police officers in times square, and they skate, no penalty? you just go home, you know, out of jail, no problem. now, something is going to happen to them eventually, but what happens to the average cop in a car? >> overall, morale, i've been in the business, as you say, 50 years, associated with new york city for 25 years. the morale of the average new york city cop is about as low as it's ever been. they don't feel supported. why? because with the exception of the mayor, they are not supported. we have a city council that is the worst council i've seen in my time in new york city. the anti-police attitude of that council, as evidenced by the vote they just took on the how many stops act is an example of that. new york is going to have to start waking up to the fact that

you have a thin blue line. the thin blue line is getting frayed. it is ironic, because as reverend al pointed out, in a minority majority city, the nqpd is a minority majority police force. almost 60% of the officers are minorities. that's what everybody has been looking for. but if the public is not going to -- and the politicians are not going to respect what they've been striving for, why don't you think the cops are going to feel very bad about the job and having a tremendous difficulty recruiting cops? this is the worst time i have ever seen in my 50 years in terms of not only specifically to new york but in general across the country. >> you see it happening in new york. see it happening in washington, d.c., which is just dreadful, the situation in d.c. is just dreadful right now. because, again, you have the city council members and elected leaders, again, who are just letting chaos rein there.

philadelphia, it's almost impossible for them to hire new cops in philadelphia. tough, tough times. commissioner bratton, thank you so much for being with us. danny, let me ask you about -- we've been hearing yesterday that we were probably going to get a verdict from the judge in the civil fraud trial. you say it may take a little longer. tell us why. >> i do. for the last couple weeks, the one recurring question is, how long until this immunity decision? how long until justice engoron issues his opinion? my answer is based on normal, mortal, everyday cases. >> right. >> these cases take a long time. just take a look at justice engoron. he issued an opinion on summary judgment, well reasoned, and it ran upwards of 20 pages, maybe more by my memory. that means he needs to consider everything. ideally, hopefully, he waited until the end of the case to

begin drafting it. hopefully he didn't make his decision beforehand. so he's got to draft it. he knows, as with all trump cases, people are going to study these opinions for years, as if they're religious texts. you're at least going to run spellcheck on it. you'll go over it with your clerks a few times, make sure you've got it right. yes, we've seen, for example, bush v. gore, the supreme court can get things out of breakneck speed. but a lot of folks have gotten a little spoiled with these high-profile cases and courts coming out so quickly. i've been pointing, for example, separately, to the opinion decision that we've all been waiting on. it takes a while. people expected it last week, the week before. in a normal case, these things would take months, not weeks, months. justice engoron might not be today. if he does, good on him for banging it out that quickly. don't be surprised if it takes longer than we expect. >> saying the same with the immunity? >> i'm going back and forth. i'm talking about the d.c.

circuit immunity decision which, of course, is a weighty, important decision. the d.c. circuit is often thought of as the second most prestigious court in the land. they know whatever they write is going to be hotly, hotly contested, reviewed, and really cited for decades to come. >> all right. >> msnbc legal analyst danny cevallos, thank you very much. good to have bill bratton on, by the way. the former commissioner bratton, he has a book out. his latest book is titled "the profession, a memoir of policing in america." still ahead on "morning joe," an emotional phone call from president biden to the parents of a soldier recently killed in that drone strike in jordan. we'll hear some of that and have the latest on the u.s. response to the attack. plus, donald trump's 2024 campaign issues an unusual message to megadonors. ignore trump's words. what a top adviser is telling wealthy republicans.

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teach success. that's what it's all about. success. it's going to happen to you. >> donald trump is, without question, the world's most famous businessman. as a real estate developer, he has reshaped the new york skyline with some of that great city's most prestigious and elegant buildings. now, donald trump brings his years of experience to the world of business education with a launch of trump university. >> whoa. >> oh, my god. >> unbelievable. >> before there was -- >> well, people paid money. >> a lot? >> a lot of people paid a lot of money. >> -- defaming of a woman he

sexually assaulted and the attempting to overthrow american democracy. >> people enrolled in that course, willie. >> donald trump found himself in legal trouble over a fraudulent business school he created. >> we're not getting willie reaction. >> the valedictorian of the class of 2008. >> mike barnicle. >> you have to pay extra to be the valedictorian. >> once you told people, "hey, i'm a graduate of trump u," the doors open wide. >> yeah, to the jailhouse. >> days after being elected president, trump agreed to pay $25 million to the thousands of people he tricked into paying for classes at trump u over the course of a five-year period. geez. joining us now, the prosecutor in that case, former assistant new york attorney general, tristan snell. he is the author of a new book

entitled, "taking down trump: 12 rules for prosecuting donald trump by someone who did it successfully." >> thank you so much for being with us. what is the most important of the 12 rules? what's the first thing you just got to know going in? >> the first thing is you have to actually have the right leadership in place. if you don't bring the case at all, if the prosecutor doesn't have the courage to bring the case. let's say there is the credible accusations. if you don't actually start digging and greenlight the case, it's not going to go anywhere. >> when you do greenlight the case, you have to have total buy-in, you say. >> total buy-in all the way through the ranks. it has to come from the top official, whether that person is elected or appointed, and down to the prosecutors. get out of the way and let the line prosecutors do the work. >> what's the next step? >> really, the middle part of the book talking about a bunch of steps around investigation. a lot of it is, you have to be able to fight back when trump stonewalls you. you have to get creative about getting documents and testimony from other parties, like his vendors.

he doesn't pay those people a lot of the time, so some of those people can be your allies and can break open your case. >> the list, there's a lot in there, and i'm looking at number 11 right now. trump will lash out, ignore it. that is a big part of taking on donald trump as we've seen from all these prosecutors. >> yeah. >> seen it from the judges, as we've seen from defendants, seen from e. jean carroll. he is going to attack you, go after your credibility. >> of course. >> how do you deal with that? >> he attacked me in our case. he didn't attack me by name, but his lawyers accused me of fabricating the witness testimony. we had dozens of affidavits from these brave folks willing to step forward and talk about what had happened, and he accused me of making it all up. you know, look, i had it easy. these folks have it hard. the folks that have been doing this have been doing it wonderfully. you have to have a stoic attitude and keep pushing. we saw it recently from e. jean carroll, the fact she kept pushing on this and for years. that's the way to do it. you can't let him rattle you. >> that's for sure.

>> is part of the reason a lot of people, whether it be prosecuting him or doing business with him, pack up, is because they don't want to take the battering -- >> oh, yeah. >> -- and they get intimidated? >> that's right. >> their reputations could be marred in some way. isn't it that you have to have, you know, like a stiff back in order to stand up to him? >> yes. >> because when you say lead prosecutors and all, you had the advantage of someone that was at the top of your office that had steel nerves, that couldn't be intimidated. is it that character that is required to go up against trump in any form? >> 100%. the intimidation factor and the co-opting factor, how he cozied up to certain prosecutors and got them to stand down, those are two of the biggest weighing that he was able to evade justice for 40 years, really. 1973 when he first got sued for housing discrimination all the way to 2013 when we brought the trump university case, he pretty

much didn't have anything. now, you're starting to see that really turned the tide. now, we see more and more cases and more and more private litigants managing to score hit points on him. >> rule eight is get trump under oath. >> yeah. >> isn't that meaningless when you're dealing with a pathological liar? get him under oath is one thing. he is represented by lawyers who often don't get paid. >> right. >> i mean, that's sort of -- the degree of difficulty there is high. >> the kicker, though, is that if you do it right, and robbie kaplan, e. jean carroll's lawyer did a great job of this, it is getting him under oath and managing to get the right question in. not everybody would have thought to say, oh, let's show him the "access hollywood" tape. she did that, but then some of the questions she asked. she asked him, "are you a star?" the whole thing is that he says, "if you're a star, they let you do it."

"are you a star?" that activated his narcissism. he either has to eat his ego and say, i'm not, or he'll say, "i am a star," and that led him to those moments there where he basically said that he had the right as a high-privileged male to do what he did. >> the deposition is incredible to watch. >> it is the most devastating one i've ever seen. >> it's worth it. it reveals his true character. you see how deft and brilliant the attorney is. >> stringing him along. >> i was looking at our notes. some of the memberships into trump university was $35,000. >> uh-huh. >> no. >> are you kidding me? >> people paid 35 grand? >> it was as much as tuition or more. it was an enormous amount of money. they upsold everybody to that. people lost their life savings, their nest eggs, lost their

homes. they were in crippling credit card debt. it was horrible, what he did. these were his super fans. these were the people who loved him the most. these were people who loved him in "the apprentice." this was from 2007 to 2010. they loved him the most, and he knifed them and took their money. >> my god. >> you're describing what's going on right now. >> that's exactly right. >> people who love him the most are writing checks to his campaign. >> or they're in jail. >> he's taking that money, and he is using that money for criminal defense, for civil defense. he's using that money for, you know, flying his jet around the country, going from one lawsuit to another. the people who, you know, can afford it the least, mike. >> right. >> they're the people giving him the most money right now. >> it leads to my question that i think a lot of people have, but you more than most have experience with trump up front,

up close. how many times did you think to yourself after this trial, you sit there watching the tv and said, "this guy became the president of the united states." >> i know. the whole thing was incredibly surreal. doing the case, we would joke about what would happen if he got into politics. we thought when the glare came on him, people would see him for what he was. it's been shocking, horrifying. i'm kind of numb to it now. you have to keep pushing, and you just have to keep on trying to tell the truth about what it is. but it is amazing to me. truly, he's conned, as you were saying, conned these people. we see it to this day, and people don't realize they've been conned until the critical moment. i think we'll get there some day, but we're not there. a lot of folk who is currently support him will realize who he is and he's not in their corner. >> he's not.

>> "taking down trump: 12 rules by someone who did it successfully." tristan snell, congratulations on the book. thank you for bringing it here to us. still ahead, we're going to go through the new warning on china from fbi director christopher wray. we'll discuss that and much more with former national security adviser john bolton. he joins us just ahead on "morning joe."

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ten minutes before the top of the hour. time for a look at the headlines from across the country. "the columbus dispatch" reports president biden is planning a trip to east palestine, ohio, this weekend, one year after a freight train carrying hazardous chemicals derailed there. fearing explosions, authorities released and burned the chemicals, sending huge,

hazardous smoke plumes over the entire area. biden initially faced criticism from residents for not visiting when the incident first occurred. "the tampa bay times" leads with a federal judge's dismissal of disney's lawsuit against governor ron desantis. disney argued desantis stripped disney world of certain privileges to retaliate against the company after it spoke out against his controversial legislation that was dubbed by critics as the don't say gay bill. a spokesperson for disney said the battle, quote, will not end here. "the indianapolis star" reports an indiana state representative showed his gun to students visiting the statehouse. >> come on, man. >> in a video posted to x, representative jim lucas was seen discussing firearms with the students when one asked him if he carried a gun. he then pulled back his coat to show a holstered handgun. after receiving backlash, the

representative posted to his facebook page, quote, i fear and pity those that are being indoctrinated to fear that which is their best means of self-defense. >> in georgia, there is a proposed bill that would add watermarks to election ballots in the state. the georgia house passed the bill in near unanimous vote. if it passes in the state senate, watermarks could be added to ballots as early as the general election in november. ballots in the state are already printed on special security paper, but trump supporters continue to pursue claims that votes in the 2020 election were forged by martians that took over the bodies of former atlanta braves players from 1967, who had been through a "star trek," you know, one of

those things. >> yeah. >> okay, joe. >> then they got into a "back to the future" car. >> bob horner voted 25 times. >> yeah. coming up, we're learning more -- >> we have pat rocket. >> there he is! >> biff. >> we have that on command? >> wow! >> nice job in the control room. wow. >> that's good. amazing. >> yeah, so that's what trump supporters say. >> what a fun game. throw out a name, see if they have it. >> are you done? >> yeah, i guess i'm done. >> okay. good. we're learning more, coming up, about what u.s. retaliation for the deadly drone attacks on american troops in jordan might look like. that new reporting is straight ahead on "morning joe."

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the biggest struggle everybody has right now is nobody has been able to read it. everyone is going off of internet rumors, and there's lots of things that are out there that are patently false. for instance, this ongoing thing that it allows 5,000 people in every day, checks them in, there is no way that's in the bill. number one, i'd never agree to that. it's also just a total mischaracterization of the bill. but we're in a moment where people believe what they read on the internet. until we get the text out there, that'll be it until it can make a difference. >> republicans are openly criticizing the bipartisan bill on the border without even reading it. >> i mean, not only, rev, the leaders -- not only fellow

republicans, but you have people on all the networks that you would expect, all the pro-trump networks just lying through their teeth. you've got these clowns that bounce around and do whatever trump tells them to do coming out and saying this is the worst deal ever. this will ruin america. they haven't even read the bill. again, republicans that have in the senate say it is the toughest border security bill ever. >> when you have people like the senator who has been right-wing as long as you can track him saying this is the toughest bill we can get, and then everyone flips because donald trump says, "no, i want an issue. mind you, an issue to run against joe biden." >> right. >> forget about the issue. forget what we believe. forget about the country. i need this for political reasons. it shows you why this is confirmation this is a cult. this is no longer political

party. >> a great confirmation of that is look at the oklahoma republican party. they are now censoring their most conservative national politician. not because he crossed donald trump but because he drafted a bill that donald trump decided after its drafting and negotiating he didn't like. >> it's actually incredible. you remember some of these bills that donald trump would run when there was a horrible murder in iowa by a migrant of an iowa woman. he'd run the ad over and overand over. if this bill doesn't go and there is a really bad incident, he is trying to give joe biden an issue. i'm thinking back to something president george w. bush said years ago, that this is easy to solve. immigration actually is not that complicated. both sides have their own incentives not to solve it, and that's what we're seeing right now. >> as you and rev both say, it

is a tough sell to call james langford a liberal swish who is in it to do something good for joe biden. that's not exactly who he is at all. now, they've taken it to misrepresenting the bill, which, by the way, as the senator said, they have not read. there's no text that's out yet. they've heard snippets from it and are saying, it'll allow 5,000 migrants to cross illegally every day, to which senator langford goes, "no, it doesn't." now, they're misrepresenting the little bit about it that they know, all in service of donald trump. >> oh, my lord. jonathan lemire, mike barnicle still with us. joining the conversation, we have david ignatius of "the washington post". and senior aid to the hillary clinton and biden presidential campaigns, adrienne elrod is back with us this morning. good to have you both with us. the house has passed a bipartisan tax bill yesterday which explains eligibility for the child tax credit program and adjusts payments for inflation.

non-partisan groups estimate this could lift about 400,000 children out of poverty. it also restores some corporate tax cuts that were implemented during the trump administration but have since expired. the bill now heads to the senate where republicans have voiced opposition. senator chuck grassley of iowa criticized the measure, saying it could help president biden's re-election campaign. >> what is -- >> here we go again. >> what is going on? >> what is it? telling semafor yesterday, "passing a bill that makes the president look good, mailing out checks before the election means he could be re-elected, then we won't extend the 2016 tax cuts." it is important to note the bill doesn't include a check for americans. we'll also note that in march of 2020, just ahead of the presidential election, congress approved a $2 trillion covid relief bill that included a

$1,200 check for americans. the democrat-controlled house overwhelmingly approved that legislation, and then president trump was quick to take credit for it, signing the checks himself. >> yeah, such hypocrisy. a group of prominent social media ceos faced bipartisan anger on capitol hill yesterday in a hearing before the senate judiciary committee. >> senators confronted the tech leaders for not doing enough to protect young people from the dangers of their platforms, including sexual predators, addictive features, and cyberbullying. those testifying were the ceos of meta, x, tiktok, snap, and discord. meta ceo mark zuckerberg faced the toughest questioning. at one point, at the prodding of republican senator josh hawley of missouri, zuckerberg turned around to apologize to the parents of children who were victimized by sexual

exploitation. take a look. >> there's families of victims here today. have you apologized to the victims? >> i -- >> would you like to do so now? they're here. you're on national television. would you like now to apologize to the victims who have been harmed? show them the pictures. would you like to apologize for what you've done to these good people? >> i'm sorry for everything that you have all gone through. it was terrible. no one should have to go through the things your families have suffered, and this is why we invest so much. we're doing continuing efforts to make sure no one has to go through the types of things that your families have had to suffer. >> when a boeing plane lost a door in mid flight several weeks ago, nobody questioned the decision to ground a fleet of over 700 planes. so why aren't we taking this

same type of decisive action on the danger of these platforms when we know these kids are dying? >> there are a lot that is slipping through. it appears that you're trying to be the premier sex trafficking site. >> of course not, senator. >> in this country. >> that is ridiculous. senator -- >> it is not. >> we don't want this content on our platforms. >> why don't you take it down? >> we do. >> we are discussing -- >> we do more work to take it down than -- >> you need to work with us. no, you're not. >> mr. zuckerberg, you and the companies before us, i know you don't mean it to be so, but you have blood on your hands. you have a product -- [ applause ] -- you have a product that's killing people. >> actually, i don't think it's fair to say they don't need it. i don't think it is fair to say at all. i mean, if you know it's happening, if you have studies that show that your product

leads to suicide, to suicidal ideations, to anxiety, to depression, especially in young girls, and you know that and you hide that information, sounds a lot like cigarette companies back in the 1950s and 1960s. if you have somebody running -- and, willie, it's from that to protecting democracy in 2016. they had somebody on the inside saying, "you guys are making it too easy for russia and other foreign countries to interfere with american democracy." then sheryl sandberg screamed at the guy for saying that in front of the board. like, they know this stuff. they've known it. all he says is, "it's important to us, too. that's why we are investing." no, it's not.

it's just -- by their actions, it just doesn't look like it matters to them at all. again, they have an internal report telling them all of this stuff. you know, what did they do about it? >> people don't have to take your word for it. we've had facebook whistleblowers testify before congress. we've seen internal documents at instagram and facebook that show they know what this stuff is going to young people. they know what this is doing to young girls. they know the impact it has, but it's about the bottom line. these are the wealthiest people in the world. these are some of the most successful companies in the world. the algorithm, the addiction, is the point, to get people in and to keep them there is the point. they know what works, especially, mika, with young people, and they might do some stuff around the edges to try to make it safer, but they're not going to impact the bottom loin. >> when you see a bipartisan, though, show of understanding of

the dangers of social media companies, i just wonder why they can't get to the point where these companies can be sued. >> jonathan lemire, because of the money. they all talk -- >> that's what needs to happen. >> they all talk a good game, but when you even try to hold these companies accountable and get rid of section 230, all you're trying to do is make these companies live by the same rules as every other company in america lives by. when you do that, they go crazy. then they write checks to members of congress in the house and the senate, and everybody compliantly goes along, no matter what's happening. no matter what they're ignoring. no matter what public health care crisis they are causing. >> yeah. taken in isolation, what happened in the senate yesterday was a bright spot. it was a rare moment of bipartisanship and felt like the

public good was being done. contrast that to what we're seeing in the house here, not just killing the border bill but trying to impeach homeland security secretary mayorkas, pushing forward with hunter biden, being bogged down in the politics. it felt like something good was happening. at the same time, we've been here before. every so often, the tech leaders and ceos get hauled up before congress, say the right thing, everybody feels better about it for a minutes, then it goes away, to your point, and the campaign contributions continue. there is a limit to what this administration can do, mike barnicle, on its own. there is only so much executive authority that can be done, a regulation put in place. it'll need congress to act. maybe, look, maybe we'll be wrong. maybe tomorrow is the start of something, but i think skepticism prevails. >> jonathan, the shot we just had on tv shows four, five, maybe six people who come from a zip code in this country in silicon valley that has some of the brightest, youngest, wealthiest human beings on the

face of the earth. largely younger than a lot of people. they've made billions for themselves by altering algorithms on a daily basis to hook young people onto their products. if there aren't enough young people, they beef up the algorithm to get more clicks. adrienne, when i look at pieces of the hearing yesterday, the thing that struck me is all the parents out there who were not represented yesterday by the poor, sad families who have lost children, many of them there yesterday, but all the working parents in the country who are too busy to be monitoring their kids all day long because they both have jobs, two-job family, and they have 8-year-olds with ipads and 9-year-ols with cell phones and no idea what their children are looking at. >> exactly right, mike. that's why you saw a rare moment of bipartisanship. you have lindsey graham and amy

klobuchar both agreeing with the fact that these companies need to be regulated. klobuchar's comparison with what happened with the boeing jet, you know, congress immediately acted on that. there was no question there had to be regulations on the airline industry. you compare that to the tech industry, it is night and day. i think a lot has to do with the fact that congress is continuing to try to catch up and trying to keep up the pace of what is continuously happening in the tech industry. they're constantly changing the way algorithms work. they're constantly changing the way, you know, they disseminate this information. congress is trying to keep up. you saw a very rare moment of bipartisanship. this is something that truly unites everyone in this country, no matter what party affiliation you have. there are so many kids out there who are on their smartphones all day, on social media, and it's really hard for parents to regulate what they're looking at. >> yet, you can't ignore the impact it is having on your kids. >> you can't. elise, it's kind of like gun

laws. >> geez. >> you have one school after another, one church after another, one country music event, you name it. the military style weapons, the shootings keep continuing. we keep talking about it. we keep talking about suicides from depressed kids. we keep talking about the impact this has on young women and on young boys. nothing ever happens. they just talk. >>petrifying because no one knows what could be done. there's not enough study to know, what age should you restrict letting your children go on these platforms? the one semi-positive i took, though, was mark zuckerberg managed to summon something inside of him, probably because advisors had been repeatedly telling him, "learn from the example of these presidents who came and testified and showed no contrition for the victims in

israel," and he actually seemed to show that he knew he needed to take this seriously. >> yeah. >> maybe it's the beginning of understanding they have a problem, but saying the right things, it doesn't matter if there isn't any action. >> exactly. rev, studies show that disproportionate number of children of color are impacted even more, are on the phones, on the devices even more, and there's more of a mental health crisis there, as well. >> absolutely. every study that i've seen shows that there is a disproportionate impact among young people of color, and the impact that it has on their mental health and behavior. so why are we acting like this is some academic study somewhere? we are in a state of emergency here. i was glad to see the

bipartisanship, but where is the action? there was no ending of it saying, therefore, we're going to do this to you guys -- >> right. >> -- if you don't do that. it's like, there's blood on your hands. wash your hands and go back to work. >> make more money. >> what was that about? president biden has called the family of kennedy sanders in waycross, georgia. kennedy was an army reserve specialist, promoted to the rank of sergeant after she and two other soldiers were killed sunday by a drone strike in jordan. in an emotional phone call recorded on camera by the "atlanta journal constitution," president biden is heard consoling kennedy's family. >> this is joe biden. >> good morning, mr. president. >> good morning. >> i wish i didn't have to make this call, shawn. i know, you know, everybody -- i know there is nothing anybody can say or do to ease the pain.

i've been there. >> yes, sir. we understand. >> i just want you to know that i -- you're in my prayers and my heart. >> yes, sir. we know that you can definitely feel our pain. >> well, unfortunately, i do. but i can tell you one other thing. you won't believe it now, and i hope you won't be angry when i say it. but the day will come, the day will come when you walk by a park where kennedy played in, or you'll open a closet and you smell the fragrance of her clothing, something like that, and you'll smile before you cry. that's when you know you're going to make it. it takes a hell of a long time to get there, but i promise you, you'll get there. i know that is no consolation now. i wish there was something really intelligent i could say to change everything. >> we -- i just thank you so much for your words of comfort, especially from a parent who experienced it. you know, you've made it

through. i know that you know we can make it through, as well. i just appreciate your words. >> mike, they used to call reagan the consoler in chief there. in that situation, i guess joe biden, better than anybody, can talk to parents who have lost a child and tell them he understands their pain. understands that they will get through it, but it'll be a hell of a long process. >> you know, they received that phone call not from the president of the united states. they received the phone call from joseph r. biden, a parent from wilmington, delaware, who has lost children. his daughter, his son. the daughter by accident, the son by cancer. he has a deep, full understanding of loss.

he lives with it each and every day. he manages to carry that burden quite well, but he understands human beings who have lost things, lost loved ones. that was exhibit a for joe biden being president of the united states. what kind of man would you like leading this country? a good man who understands your life, your losses, your victories, or someone who is just all in it for himself? he clearly is not all in it for himself. >> yeah. david ignatius, obviously, there are other parents suffering right now. there are american troops that have been injured by attacks by iran's funding. how is the white house responding? where are we right now on their response to iran and their proxies? >> joe, the first thing i'd say

is i'd agree with mike. that really is joe biden, president biden, that is at his best. he does understand suffering. i was hearing last night from a couple he called when he was vice president who lost a child, and he just called them to be with them personally. it's something he really gives. it is a gift he gives to the country and individuals. in terms of broad response, there are two tracks. first, the president has said that the united states will respond to the deaths of the three u.s. soldiers who were killed in northeast jordan. specialist sanders being one of them. he's not said how he'll do it, but the effort is under way now to get detailed intelligence about how the rockets were fired, what the supply chain that put them in the hands of the people who fired them was, to seek targets that are

meaningful. then there is a diplomatic track. interestingly, that seems to be producing some effects. we saw on tuesday the group that essentially claimed credit for this terrible shot saying it will not target american facilities in iraq and the jordanian border, one assumes, anymore. they seem to be scared and also under pressure from their patrons in iran who are saying, "knock it off." similar statement yesterday from the irgc leader who said they don't want a war with the united states. the combination of threats of military pressure and a diplomatic campaign that's drawn in china, which has a big interest in the region not blowing up and international trade not getting even more disrupted, china putting some pressure on iran that seems to

have made for at least, for now, a stand down what what was an escalating crisis. you have to hand it, i think, to the biden administration for taking its time, for thinking carefully, and getting some results. >> elise. >> david, elise here. it's so tragic that we lost these three young soldiers. you know, it was the beginning of their lives, going out into the world. my question to you is, what is the rationale for the american national interest having that base in jordan? it seems like we have so many bases just still there, languishing after the war on terror, and not for really a specific purpose. are you hearing anything from your sources in the biden administration about re-evaluating our military posture so that we don't have troops over in vague missions that we can't define? >> elise, it's a great question. awful irony here is that the

biden administration had begun a review of precisely these deployments, asking the same question you did. what's the purpose of this? and was beginning to come up with a plan for drawing down some of these deployments. we have about 2,500 troops in iraq. we have about 900 in syria. the ones in jordan were logistical support for the base in syria, southern syria, which i've been to a number of times. what breaks my heart is these young people, specialist sanders whose parents we saw, they were sitting ducks. these were unprotected buildings. they didn't see the drone that was coming at them. you know, these are logistical soldiers. these are not special forces who were out in armor, prepared for combat. i don't think they ever imagined something like this could happen.

there is an effort under way to think, do we need these people? what's their mission? you don't want to pull them out under pressure. that would look like you're folding after an attack. but i would think after some interval, you'll see a significant reduction in the troops in both iraq and syria. >> yeah. david, on diplomatic track, some pretty significant news. the state department let out that they are considering the possibility of recognizing a palestinian state and are talking with allies in the region, allies of the region and across the world and lining up in support of the recognition of a palestinian state. talk about why they let that information out and how significant that is. >> so, joe, there is a train that's about to start moving fast. >> yes, it is. >> toward a big diplomatic deal. secretary blinken is heading for the middle east. i think he'll go to saudi arabia

first this weekend, then he'll go to israel. he is going to take from saudi arabia more offers from crown prince mohammed bin salman, that he is willing to resume relations if the war ends, if israel commits to creating a palestinian state. the way i like to put it is, he's going to, in effect, make an offer to prime minister bibi netanyahu that he can't refuse. this has been his dream since he became prime minister, that he'd somehow get a breakthrough with saudi arabia. but he can't accept it, members of his coalition would be up in arms about some of what is being asked. the biden administration is going to present netanyahu personally and israel as a country with an absolutely epic choice. which path do you want to take coming out of this terrible gaza war? the u.s. will set it up carefully. i think it's a period where i have to give high marks to u.s.

diplomacy in terms of staging this, talking to the people, and then, in the next few weeks, keep your eyes focused, presenting it hard on to an israeli government that's very reluctant to make these moves. >> all right. "the washington post"'s david ignatius, thank you very much for your reporting and analysis this morning. still ahead on "morning joe," fbi director christopher wray is out with a stark, new warning about cyberthreats from china. we'll talk to former national security adviser john bolton about that and much more, including donald trump's continued attacks on nato. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.

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29 past the hour. donald trump's campaign chief is telling republican donors to ignore the former president's de vries -- divisive rhetoric and

focus on his lead instead. the message was delivered in palm beach, florida, on tuesday at a private gathering of the wealthiest gop donors in the country. susie wiles, a top adviser to the trump campaign, told the deep-pocketed donors, the former president is going to say things that people don't like. but argued trump is on the path to securing the gop nomination and is the party's best bet to defeat biden. that's according to people familiar with her remarks. here is some of trump's rhetoric the campaign might want donors to ignore. at a rally on saturday, the former president questioned american support for ukraine and its fight against the russian invasion, and then pivoted to new attacks on nato. >> you know, ukraine is an interesting case. people always want to know my feeling. number one, we're in for $200 billion plus, and it european nations are in for $20 billion. it's more important for them. don't you think they should

equalize? nobody asks them, it's like i did with nato, i said, "we're spending. we're paying for nato. we don't get so much out of it." you know, i hate to tell you this about nato, if we ever needed their help, let's say we were attacked, i don't believe they'd be there. >> joining us now, former national security adviser and u.s. ambassador to the united nations, john bolton. he is the author of the book entitled "the room where it happened." it is out in paperback this week with a new foreword. the new foreword serves as a warning about just how bad you believe a second trump term would be. in it, you write in part this, "at this writing, trump is well-positioned for re-election. for more than a year, this prospect has prompted pessimism and even despair among reagan reaganite conservativings. political forensics experts may well conclude that their inactive, standing on the

sidelines, returned trump to power. the facts, however, are clear. he is unfit to be president. if his first four years were bad, a second four will be worse. dismaying many ardent supporters. i hope what follows is a sufficient warning to america's voters to help avoid our worst fears from coming true." the impact of a second term would be dangerous to our national security, to say the least. are you saying that at some point, people need to believe his rhetoric? >> yeah, i think trump actually says what comes to mind as a very astute person once said to me, he doesn't have a filter between his brain and his mouth. so when he, for example, threatens to get out of nato, as he did during his first term and has done since then, i think people better believe it. i think that would be a mistake. in the clip you just ran, he

said several things that are simply incorrect. it reveals an important trade about trump on national security issues and many others. he is fundamentally ignorant. he really doesn't care about the facts. he thinks international relations are about personal relations, which is a line and approach that i can tell you, vladimir putin and xi jinping are eagerly looking forward to. >> republicans still have another option. i mean, it is unlikely, i guess, if you look at the numbers and the way the states are lined up, but is nikki haley a viable alternative? would you advise republicans to vote for her? >> well, i would advise her -- i hope she'd stay in until the convention and carry the banner for anybody who doesn't want trump. a meteor might yet strike the earth. that's possible. it is possible there will be an event in one of these criminal prosecutions that would really wake a lot of people up.

until the convention in august, i just don't think that we should surrender, in effect, to trump. i think this has a significant impact on the senate and house elections this year, as well. as for nikki, i understand yesterday she said whether texas wanted to leave the union, it's up to texas, but that's not true. she can carry the banner for those who are worried about the risk of donald trump. >> ambassador bolton, good morning. i want to ask about ukraine and if donald trump was re-elected, what it would mean. vladimir putin is hoping to wait this out to see if donald trump, his old friend who has shown great affection publicly and privately if he is in power. mitch mcconnell said yesterday we have to move on from attaching ukraine and israel aid to this immigration legislation. ukraine desperately needs our

support. what is your sense of the way things could go in the short term if we don't fund ukraine, in the long term if donald trump is elected? >> well, in the short term, i've been worried for some time that vladimir putin would get up one day and say, "you know, this war has gone on long enough. let's have a cease-fire and start negotiating." which, of course, is what the biden administration would love to do. that's their preferred outcome. but it would give russia a new de facto boundary that would rapidly become permanent in ukraine. i think europe would fade away. i think this is a very dangerous time for ukraine. if trump gets in, what he's said on the campaign trail is he'd get zelenskyy and put been a room together and resolve the matter in 24 hours. that's another silly statement from trump. that won't happen. when it fails, trump will have to find somebody to blame. obvious, it won't be his fault. it'll be one of the other two. i think the odds are almost 100-1 it'd be zelenskyy. putin would welcome that. a trump election is not just bad

news for ukraine, it's bad news all around the world because that approach, his withdrawal from nato if he does it, and i think he will, will encourage the leaders in beijing and elsewhere to take advantage of it. >> ambassador bolton, president biden has said that he has made a decision as to what the appropriate response will be in the wake of the drone attack in jordon that killed three u.s. service members, and it could last weeks. you're someone who served as national security adviser, at times in tension with iran. what would be your thought as to an appropriate response, and would it include striking within the borders of iran itself? >> well, i think first, you have to get the strategic situation right. i think the biden white house has gotten it wrong ever since october the 7th. this is a coordinated action by iran surrogates. it's not just the 160 plus attacks that the shia militia in

iraq and syria have made since then and, tragically, on sunday, it's the houthis stopping commercial traffic in the red sea, hamas, obviously, attacking israel, and hezbollah attacking israel from the north. iran has paid no price, no price, for any of this activity. i think to get their attention and to make it clear we consider their behavior across the region utterly unacceptable, that there have to be attacks across what iran considered a red line. that's in their territory. now, being a very moderate guy myself, these initial attacks in iran do not need to be regime threatening. we can, for example, take out substantial numbers of air defense locations that iran has set up. we can go after bases in western iran that our military has wanted to attack for up to two decades, bases where the militias were trained and equipped, sent across and back into iraq to kill american

service members. we can sink iranian ships in the red sea that are aiding the houthis, violating freedom of seas for the whole world. that's what my first step would be. if iran understands what we're up to at that point, then we might see hostilities diminish across the region. if they didn't, we could consider other steps, and should. do i think the biden administration will do that? no. we hear they're tracing down the location of this bit of militia or that bit of militia that may have fired one drone. look, we're not prosecuting a case in court. this is a war that iran has launched, and they've killed americans. they've crossed one of our red lines. it's time we crossed one of theirs. >> "the room where it happened" is out now in paperback with a new foreword. former national security adviser and u.s. ambassador to the united nations, john bolton, thank you very much for coming on this morning. >> thanks for having me.

coming up, democratic congressman henry cuellar of texas joins us to discuss the fight in congress over a senate bill to secure the southern border. why house republicans are already promising to tank it before even reading it. that's just ahead right here on "morning joe." i suffer with psoriatic arthritis and psoriasis. i was on a journey for a really long time to find some relief. cosentyx works for me. cosentyx helps real people get real relief from the symptoms of psoriatic arthritis or psoriasis. serious allergic reactions, severe skin reactions that look like eczema, and an increased risk of infections, some fatal, have occurred. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms, had a vaccine or plan to or if ibd symptoms develop or worsen. i move so much better because of cosentyx. ask your rheumatologist about cosentyx.

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points, but yesterday, the senator didn't take the bait when offered a chance to weigh in by newsmax. >> senator, i want to ask you about taylor swift. so she spends a whole lot of time in your whole state of tennessee, even though she was born in mississippi. newsweek had a poll yesterday that found that 18% of voters would actually vote for whoever taylor swift told them to vote for. in 2020 in a documentary, she said that you were donald trump in a wig. how do you respond to that, and what's your take on the impact she could have in november? >> taylor swift is really a popular, very talented, young woman. she has built quite an empire. i am so thrilled that she has chosen to base that in nashville. she is considered to be an influencer. i think when it comes to elections, people look at the issues that are important to

them. they make their decisions. right now, we know that the border, the open border, the biden border policy, that is something at the top of the list for so many people. certainly in tennessee, the border is issue number one. >> did it bother you, or do her comments bother you, saying trump in a wig? >> i just shake it off. >> there you go. >> pretty good. >> that's the right answer. >> everyone is helping travis get more well-known through taylor. >> just stop. she does this all the time. >> it's great. >> i can't watch the game without -- >> everyone knows who travis kelce is now. >> she's leaning into the meme. >> she really is. >> it's true. >> senator blackburn had nothing to do with that story. >> yeah. >> by the way, this is so -- people are talking about it a lot, but it is so fringe. you have, today, "the new york post" with an op-ed, and the

"journal" having an op-ed, saying, stop with the taylor swift thing. she's popular. everybody loves her. leave it alone. forget the conspiracy theories which make your teeth hurt when you try to follow them, but they're like, just walk away from the taylor and travis thing. >> the clips in the documentary where taylor is talking about her political awareness is really interesting, though. >> yeah. >> she and her mom, they're talking about how rights are under attack. you look at her dad and how her dad is just saying, do we really need to wade into this? taylor is making the existential case. it is really quite moving to hear her, and also to see how her dad is responding when he is probably one of the men who wouldn't have voted on abortion but he sees how it impacts his daughter. >> exactly. that is a window into that, for sure. >> marcia blackburn did respond to that, like, pitch perfectly for republicans. >> mm-hmm. >> i'm glad she's concerned about the border, as am i. so they'll support the biden

border bill, toughest -- the biden/langford border bill. >> yeah. >> seems would make sense. >> the toughest, i think, in american history, from what i hear. but, adrienne, let's talk about it. again, i've always been skeptical about endorsements. i'd always say, ah, doesn't matter if poiticians endorse you. i guess you'd know better than most of us about the importance of having people that aren't in politics coming on board and supporting your candidate. talk about that. i mean, you certainly saw that in 2020. >> yeah, absolutely. of course, joe, in 2020, we really had these influencers who had large social media followers and a large ability to bring in new voters, bring in new eyeballs on the content, because everybody we did, for the most part, during covid, was virtual. it was important to have the surrogates. taylor swift is incredibly

influential, and marcia blackburn, the way she handled the question is case in point number one, why you don't go after somebody who is overwhelmingly popular. i'd love to see a poll done on taylor swift to understand, you know, and really see how incredibly popular she is across party lines. she is somebody who, you know, has really created such a positive environment and is a positive role model for young women across not just the united states but across the world. so to have somebody like taylor swift, you know, in her own way, they showed pictures of her making biden 2020 cookies and posting those on instagram, that was an incredibly powerful moment for us on the campaign. you know, she wasn't coordinating with the biden campaign directly, though she was doing something that was authentic to her and really showcasing to, you know, her millions and millions of followers on social media, you know, where she stood in the election. she didn't have to go out and give a major speech, but she

showed it in her own way. don't forget, in early 2022, i think, or sometime in 2022, she posted something about vote.org to try to get more people registered to vote. she registered 35,000 voters very, very quickly. that's an incredibly powerful capability that she has, that most other influencers don't have. that's one of the reasons why you don't go after taylor swift. she's really, really popular. >> to elise's point, i think what makes her more to be feared by republicans than other stars that come in at the last minute and do a concert at an event or something is that she has shown in that documentary and in other ways she deeply cares about certain issues. she deeply fears one way this election could go. that's how a lot of people feel. so she's got sort of not just the popularity in her music but the beliefs, the core beliefs to back it up. adrienne elrod, thank you very much for coming on this morning.

we will see you once again very soon. house speaker mike johnson gave his first floor speech of his speakership yesterday, repeating gop talking points on the bipartisan senate border bill. >> a new authority would be created in the law so the president can, quote, shut down the border once daily crossings exceed 5,000 a day. you heard that right. okay. so it is illegal to cross our border, but, apparently, we're concocting some sort of deal to allow the president to shut down the border after 5,000 people break the law. why is it 5,000? if you add that up, it'd be 1 million more illegals into our country every year before we take remedial measures. it is madness. >> except for the part where what speaker johnson is according to negotiators who are crafting the bill's text, any migrant who is caught crossing the border illegally would be detained, and their asylum

claims would be decided while they are in custody, ending the catch and release protocol. if they were to fail their asylum claim interview, they would be removed from the country within 15 days. just, you know, fyi. joining us now, democratic congressman henry cuellar of texas. good to have you on, sir. >> thank you. >> congressman, let's talk about the scope of the crisis on the border. >> you know, certainly we've seen large numbers while we're having 10,000 to 12,000 people a day. now it's about 4,500 people a day, and the reason is we need to build a new border wall. congress didn't act on this. what happened was -- is mexico started taking people off the trains and started returning people back to the southern border. they actually have more national guard and immigration officers than we have border patrol at

our border. so what mexico does has an impact on it. so that's part of the equation we need to look at. it's not only what we do at the border, but trying to get our allies like mexico to enforce their immigration laws. >> congressman, good morning. so some of what we're hearing, no one has seen the text of this bill. even speaker johnson doesn't know exactly what's in it on the senate side, but some of the tidbits we're hearing and the themes coming out of it, it does sound, and that's according to republicans on the senate side, one of the strongest, most conservative immigration bills we've seen in a long time and something that people like mike johnson have been asking for for a long time. is it your assessment that your republican colleagues in the house are acting in good faith? many people have suggested that they're operating on the orders of donald trump and speaker johnson has said, in fact, himself he talks to donald trump constantly about this bill. do you think you have good faith partners in the republican party

on this issue? >> certainly some of them not acting on policy. they're acting on politics because how can you reject a bill that you haven't even read? nobody has seen the text. i think they're trying to finish that text. so how do you reject that? that's what's amazing. you cry wolf and say there's a crisis, and then finally when you get one of the toughest border security bills in generations, they reject it because one person told them no. it's not good for my election. it helps biden, and they're rejecting something they haven't read, and on top of that -- on top of that, the last two years on homeland -- the ranking homeland appropriations, the subcommittee for homeland, we've added border patrol. every single republican except for two that are still in the house voted no. they said no to money and they're saying no to policy at this time. >> congressman, as we see many

mayors now saying that they cannot handle the influx of migrants into their cities, chicago, l.a., new york, because your governor is sending migrants there, and we just had a brutal attack by migrants on new york city police officers, do you think that if the democrats used the fact that we are out of control in places and now there are criminal attacks would move the law and order party to at least deal with the border -- some kind of border legislation? >> yes, sir. that's a very good point. some of us that live at the border, we have been seeing what new york and other places have been seeing for a long time. it's -- and with all due respect, new york and chicago and washington, d.c. and denver are just getting a drop of what we see at the border, but now this feeling is being felt or this understanding is being felt in other cities. that's one of the reasons why

democrats are getting off their comfort zone zones and doing some things on the senate bill that i would have thought that they would never have done some years ago, but because of what's happening in their own backyards, they're willing to get out of their comfort zone, and say let's take some tough measures. one more things, i want democrats -- i'm a democrat. i want democrats to say we can have border security and still respect the immigrant rights. not too many democrats talk about border security, and that's one issue politically if i can move from policy to politics, that's one issue that the republicans and donald trump are doing better than biden and democrats on border security. >> democratic congressman, henry cuellar of texas, thank you very much for coming on. >> thank you. still ahead, members of law enforcement are outraged after

migrants were caught on video attacking new york city police officers. we'll show you the response from the manhattan d.a. plus, senators grilled social media executives yesterday on capitol hill. we'll bring you the big moments from that hearing and speak with the chairman of the judiciary committee, dick durbin. "morning joe" is coming right back. rbin "morning joe" is coming right back

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now he said yesterday the stock market's great because people are excited about him being president?

he can't win again. he can't win suburban women. he lost in 2018. he lost in 2020. he lost in 2022. how many more times do you have to lose before you say, you know what? maybe that's not the guy. >> how does trump change politics for the good and the bad? >> he's made it chaotic. he's made it self-absorbed. he's made people dislike and judge each other. he's left that a president should have moral clarity and know the difference between right or wrong, and he's just

toxic. i mean, he, you know, i think a lot of the things he broke needed to be broken, but he does know how to fix things again, and it's not okay to just break. you've got to fix it and make it better, and he hasn't done that. >> republican presidential candidate nikki haley with that direct criticism of donald trump yesterday. >> that was pretty tough, huh? >> yes. in a moment, we'll show you new polling that has president biden leading trump in a hypothetical rematch thanks to a major bump from two groups of voters. we'll tell you who they are. plus, the key moments from a contentious and dramatic senate hearing yesterday. >> ugh. >> with social media ceos. that hearing included a surprise moment from mark zuckerberg who's really -- >> yeah. willie, he should have kept that surprise to himself. >> and -- >> i feel bad for you. i mean, it just seems so staged and pre-planned.

>> it was quite a moment of congressional theater. senator josh hawley having his moment of grandstanding saying, apologize to those people and then zuckerberg turned around and gave a brief address to the families in the back who have lost loved ones. >> it was -- it was discord, and, you know, there was great bipartisan support there. >> yep. >> i will say also, talk about a bipartisan issue, this is a crazy new york story, mike barnicle. you have illegal immigrants in new york that beat the hell out of cops. they get sent to jail. they get released the next day. >> oh, yeah. >> the next day. >> and by the way, politicians say i don't understand. why do people think crime's out of control? i don't understand, and you've got leaders in washington going, well, you know, i don't think we can arrest people and incarcerate them. i don't think that's the way to

safer streets. all while they're passing legislation that says, steal what you want to steal up to $1,000. we're cool with it. >> you know, for people who are not familiar with what you are talking about here, there are two police officers over the weekend in times square, a very busy times square, and they began trying to arrest someone who was disrupting the peace, and they were attacked by eight to ten, perhaps 12 other people, young men i migrants, illegal citizens. they were here illegally. they jumped all over the cops, kicked them, beat them. the cops managed -- god bless the cops. they managed to arrest two or three. >> four of them. >> four of them, and yet -- >> here's the security camera showing the assault of police officers in new york. >> times square, and they were just bounced. >> they go in and again, because

somebody's idea of -- of reform is letting people who beat the hell out of cops out of jail the next day. >> oh, sounds -- >> i'm sorry. there's nothing racist about, you know, when people say, oh, it's racist to have this or that. rev, you hear it. i hear it wherever you go. there's no -- you know, revolving doors aren't a solution. letting somebody beat the hell out of a new yorker one day and be walking on the street the next? i mean, that's a recipe for chaos. >> well, you must look at the fact that these were physical attacks. these were not somebody you're letting out for doing something that was nonphysical. secondly, with migrants, you're releasing them to go where? so even those of us that have fought for reform, there's a difference between reform and

deform. this is deform. this is -- >> yeah. >> this is where you are really, again, we need to deal with the migrant issue and we need to deal with the crisis. the office, downtown office is in times square. i'm right around the corner from where this happened. >> right. >> so to have people just doing this, it's not reforming and it's not progressive. we need to really deal with how we handle policing in a way that police nor citizens or victims of people that are reckless. we need to be mature about that. >> we'll talk to bill bratton in just a few minutes. he'll be here with us, but governor hochul was asked, should these men be deported? they're here as migrants and beating up cops. she says, yes. that's something that should be looked at. you hear people tiptoe around this during this bail reform. the budget that was passed in albany just last year gave judges more discretion now because it used to be that when

they reformed bail in 2019, the judge had no discretion. >> right. >> they couldn't assess this person as a threat. they shouldn't be put back on the subway to rob somebody today. they have more discretion now, so the tide has shifted a bit, but if these guys are just put back on the street after beating up cops, it's not enough. >> it's insanity. >> yes. >> also, you know, where would you put them? i mean, the jails are doubly filled, triply filled, right? the island is an explosion waiting to happen. >> it's a overlapping problems. you don't have enough room in the jails. should they be in the jails, and if they're migrants, you're sending them back where? communities that raise the issues of reform, we're not talking about that because we are percentage-wise, the highest victims of crimes. >> right. >> i mean, on one hand we want to be protected. on the other hand, we don't want to be abused by the cops or the robbers. >> it would be a strong message

if they could make the system work and get those attackers on planes back to their home countries immediately. >> yeah, and the biggest problem right now, mika, is there is a solution. there is a solution, and the solution's waiting for republicans to sign onto and to have it signed into law. it's called by republicans, the toughest border security law ever, and right now you've got house republicans stopping it. >> because of donald trump. >> we're going to continue to see chaos like this because of donald trump. >> we have a lot to talk about. we'll come back to this. elise jordan and jonathan lemire with us along with mike barnicle. a new national poll shows joe biden beating donald trump in a hypothetical general election matchup. this is the latest quinnipiac university survey. biden leading trump by six points, 50% to 44% among registered voters. that is outside the poll's margin of error, and up from a survey taken in december which had biden ahead by a single

point. his new lead is driven largely by growing support among independents who now back biden by 12 points, twice as much as the previous poll. also, among women where biden's lead is now 22 points up from 12 points in december, and although the survey shows trump ahead of nikki haley in a republican primary, in a general election, haley leads biden by five points, 47% to 42%. yesterday, we reported on new polling from bloomberg in the morning consult showing trump ahead of biden in seven swing states underscoring just how close this race is believed to be. there was also a caveat to some of the polling that we talked about yesterday where if he was convicted or found liable and guilty in one, two, or a number of the cases -- i don't even know how many cases he has against him. >> right. >> that could change and the

support for him could leave. >> and willie, i think this poll shows like so many others, the race is up in the air. it's very fluid. it would make sense that independents and women would be breaking away from donald trump, but, you know, they're doing the smart thing. they're attacking taylor swift and nfl football players. so maybe the independents and women will come running with them now. >> it's a brilliant strategy, isn't it? >> it is. james carville has his theory. >> james always has a theory about that stuff. yeah, the same way democrats shouldn't get too upset about a poll yesterday. maybe don't get too excited about this one. it's a long road to go. >> i agree. >> i look at trend lines and a ten-point swing among women voters in the last month, perhaps that's e. jean carroll, or seeing a lot more of donald trump, seeing the way he's treating nikki haley by the way as they go forward, and by the way as you look on the second beat on that poll, it's the case nikki haley has been making.

maybe it's too late. she said, don't come crying to me in november when joe biden beats donald trump. i'm the one who beats -- i'm the one who beats joe biden and you have a chance to put me there. >> i think it's something else too. if donald trump has been running as, i'm strongman, i'm strongman, and he stumbles out and bumbles his way through speeches and sounds -- >> sweaty speeches. >> sweaty speeches and sprayed -- >> it's rudy at the end. >> when he messes up now, something he's never had, he's got an opponent who says, three seconds ago in new hampshire, donald trump said this, and the biden campaign puts it up. here's their latest ad. >> donald trump is truly confused. >> nikki haley is in charge of security. we offered her 10,000 people. they don't want to talk about that. >> he didn't just get me

confused. he mentioned it over and over and over again. he's not what he was in 2016. he has declined. that's a fact. >> i mean, we won -- last time we won 50 states, right? >> this is not donald trump in 2016. >> what? >> if he's off the teleprompter, he can barely keep a cogent fact. that's just fact. >> in a powerful death penalty, we'll put this on. >> i think he's declining. >> i stumbled and mumbled purposely. >> i speak in long, complex sentences and i have a lot of material in each sentence. >> a voter who needs to buy a loaf of bread. you have i.d. >> have you noticed he's a little confused these days? >> a person close to trump says he's rattled by biden's fforts to get under his skin. >> you have i.d. to buy a bottle of red wine. you have i.d. to buy bread. he's going on and on.

we have a very powerful institute death penalty? >> he won all 50 states in 2016. >> we found out. >> as he said. i'm just watching that thing. george w. bush has to be going, they made fun of me for -- what about this? yeah. i have talked about this, but the moment where he confused not in the slip of the tongue, but again and again, nikki haley and nancy pelosi was a moment for some people who thought -- >> right. >> -- maybe he really is losing it. >> you'll see it in time where he goes, nikki haley, nikki haley, nikki haley, and he's searching for nancy pelosi's name. he goes on a little bit longer and then he just circles back to nancy pelosi, and then -- and then, you know, like a month earlier, he's trying to remember joe biden's name. he chokes on obama's name, like, he's got, like, you know, a chick. wing in his throat.

then he keeps on walking through that. he just goes back. i can't remember who the president is. obama. we beat obama. it's one thing if you slip up. it's another thing if people see somebody that's nikki haley saying that slowing down, that's struggling and trying to remember a name, and you see it live, and it just -- again, it just keeps getting worse. >> a senior biden campaign adviser told me just yesterday, where have y'all been on this? it's, like, finally people are paying attention to the fact that donald trump is slipping, that age is a vulnerability for him as well. i feel like it only broke through with much of the media because of that haley/pelosi moment we just highlighted and the last couple of weeks, it's become a real topic of political conversation and it's aided by nikki haley. what's the value of her staying in the republican race? you're seeing it right there because she's talking about it

and it allows the biden campaign to highlight words from a fellow republican. it's not just a partisan attack, but a member of the gop who's reaching out to voters that joe biden would never be able to do so, and this helps blunt some of the republican attacks on president biden's age. of course, he's known to make verbal missteps as well, and it gives them an attack line on donald trump to say, this is another example why he's unfit, unstable, not ready to be president again. yes, the polls are close. to your -- to willie's point a moment ago, no biden campaign staffer is doing cart wheels over that poll yesterday. they see the battleground states too. it's going to be won on the margins. that's why michigan is important. the margin is very slim, but they'll stay on the attack. this is the newly aggressive biden campaign that's not going anywhere. >> with nikki haley, elise, it seems to me -- it makes perfect sense to stay in the race. we're waiting, i guess any minute now for the damages in the civil fraud trial to come

down, and who knows how these could impact former president donald trump? we've already seen a decline, and it's got to be from the stress, and so i think it would be smart for someone to be left standing to offer the republicans something, and also i think her attacks on donald trump perhaps expose his foibles to an audience that wouldn't usually be open to it. >> well, i think and that is what nails it that she has been able to make headway with that message that no. donald trump is not just crazy. he actually is senile too, and she's been making headway with that message and she's gotten in some pretty good hits. over the past, you know, since new hampshire happened, what good hits has donald trump gotten in on nikki haley? he hasn't been able to attack her effectively. he hasn't been able to define her in the way he was with ron desantis. >> nobody has. >> it's because she's a woman. he is terrible when it comes to knowing an effective way --

>> defaming a woman. >> $83 million thing. so, you know, he is really not on high ground here when it comes to attacking nikki haley. >> no. >> and rev, he's in a position he's not usually in where he's not striking back as aggressively. he's not going after e. jean -- he's got two women. >> has he done anything? he has been shut down. >> let's face it. they've pounded him in his pocketbook. they've pounded him politically. >> he can't do it. >> he's keeping his mouth shut on e. jean carroll who just won $83 million from him, and really for the most part not going after nikki haley as aggressively as he would want to because he's got his campaign people going, please, please. the less you say, like, the easier our job is, donald. just keep your mouth shut. >> i think that it is certainly that, but i also think that it goes with the fact that he's

losing it because let's not forget. he ran against a woman in '16 named hillary clinton. he had no problem. >> right. >> he's losing it. i remember -- >> you've known him for a long time so when you say he's losing it -- >> he's losing it. his instinct is to fight back, punch back, and he would think back in those days that he was thinking clearer if you want to ever call what he thought was clear -- >> right. >> that he would fight back and say that they hit me. i can hit back. it reminded me -- i was blessed in my younger days to know muhammad ali, and he told me one day -- >> right. >> -- toward the end of his career, i saw the openings and i just couldn't get the punch there. i couldn't. i knew where to go sharpton, but i couldn't get the punch there. that's when i knew when to leave the ring. the openings are there for trump. he can't get there. his mind is not there anymore. >> yeah. >> they need to take him out the ring before he gets knocked out. >> there are two other elements

that are going to play into this. one is his behavior, his anger. it's quite visible the night of the new hampshire primary when he was a sore winner, attacking nikki haley for her dress, the dress that she was wearing. things like that. people get that. it's visible, his anger, his frustration, his rage, his inner rage. the other thing is there is going to be verdicts in some of these trials. >> right. >> and the guilty verdict in one of the major trials, the january 6th trial, that gives a lot of people on the fence right now about donald trump an exit ramp. oh, well, that's just too much. i can't vote for a guy who's a convicted felon and put him in the oval office. coming up, there's new outrage following an attack on two nypd officers by a group of migrants near times square. former new york city police commissioner bill bratton will weigh in on the decision to release the suspects without bail. "morning joe" is coming right back. hout bail "morning joe" is coming right back

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as we showed you earlier, two new york city police officers were beaten by migrants. this security video shows a dozen suspects punching and kicking two officers outside of a migrant shelter on 42nd street in times square. officers say they arrested four suspects at the scene and took a fifth into custody two days later. seven suspects they say remain at large. those who were arrested were released without bail. our producers reached out to the manhattan district attorney's office who gave us this statement. quote, violence against police officers is never acceptable. it is paramount that we conclusively identify each defendant and specify each participant's role in the incident. every defendant charged so far is facing felony charges that carry a penalty of up to seven years. this is an active, ongoing investigation. joining us now to discuss this, former new york city police commissioner, now the executive chairman of tenio risk, bill bratton, and also msnbc legal

analyst, danny cevallos. let's start with you. do you find it appropriate these men and suspects were released without bail? >> this is reflective of the acts that have been put into effect several years ago. the idea that very few people are held to bail is a prime example of the failure of that law. the idea that these individuals assaulted these police officers and -- look at the viciousness of that assault, kicking them in the face. eight, ten of them attacking two police officers. no. it's not acceptable. it's reprehensible as the chief of patrol described it in his comments yesterday. >> so danny, you know, the bail reform that went in in 2019 was seen as very laxed, that the judges had no discretion effectively to decide if the person was a threat and the examples have been given for

people being arrested about subway crimes literally hundreds of times, the same people. it changed a little bit with the new budget last year. budgets were given some discretion, but where does it stand right now, and particularly as you apply it to this case? >> bail reform has changed dramatically, and that's why when you ask commissioner bratton, he's from an era where this wouldn't have happened, but because of the law now, judges must always give ror, release unknown recognizance, or if it's a bailable offense, the judge can set bail, but the judge has to take into consideration, the suspects' ability to pay that bail. now in the case of asylum seekers, their ability to pay bail financially, you can guess is going to be pretty low, but a lot of this also depends on what the d.a.'s office is asking for. if it is a bailable offense, the d.a.'s can ask for bail.

that is a major question. to what degree did they push for bail? because really when you think about it, setting almost any dollar amount for bail for these defendants likely would have resulted of them being held in custody because they probably don't have a lot of resources to pay bail in the first place. >> so they would be in custody -- >> so they don't go. >> we would actually know who beat the hell out of the cops, rev. i mean, you put it best. this isn't stealing toothpaste from the cvs. this is kicking and beating the hell out of cops. i've got a feeling this isn't what bail reformers were expecting. this is excessive. >> i was one that was pushing bail reform. this is not what we're talking about. this is as i said, deform. where are you releasing them to? you're talking about assaulting police, and by the way, we fought to get more minorities in the police department. >> right. >> that's one of the things that

commissioner bratton and i did agree on, and now you're going to give a real, and in this case, it's against it, justifiable attack on bail reform because you let some guys just kick a policeman in the face and walk? that's not what bail reform was about. it's not what it should be about. these people assaulted a police officer clearly in times square, and clearly we do not know where they have been released to. we can argue how we protect crime and civil liberties. we cannot argue that is anything short of a criminal act. >> i mean, mike, you've got -- they're just -- you've got politicians, not eric adams. eric adams seems to be fighting a lot of politicians for tougher laws, but got a lot of new york politicians who are just clueless. >> well, i mean, here in new york city, i mean, the city council just voted overwhelmingly to override eric

adams' veto of a law that's going to makebureaucrats. they're going to have -- every time they stop and talk to a person, they're going to have to file a report. it's going to waste an enormous amount of time. mr. bratton, you have been involved in policing america in several different cities for 50 years. what happens to the average police officer's morale, where so much is expected of police officers today, and police officers know that everything and almost anything they do, someone is going to record it on a cell phone camera when they get out of that cruiser? what happens to their sense of morale and bligation and they see people like these eight or ten people, young men, who beat the hell out of two new york city police officers in times square, and they skate, no penalty? you just go home, you know? out of jail. no problem right now. something's going to happen to

them eventually, but what happens to the average cop in a car? >> well, as you say, i have been in the business for 50 years associated in new york city for 25 years. the morale of the average new york cop is about as low as it's ever been. they do not feel supported. why? because with the exception of the mayor, they are not supported. we have a city council that is the worst council i've seen in my time in new york city. the anti-police attitude of that council as evidenced by the vote they just took on the how many stops act is an example of that, and so new york's going to have to start waking up to the fact that it's -- it's an expression. it's a thin blue line. that blue line is getting very frayed, and as reverend al just pointed out, in this city, the nypd is a minority. almost 60% of officers are

minorities. that's what new york has been looking for, but if the public and the politicians are not going to respect what they have been striving for, why don't you think the cops are going to feel very bad about the job and they're having a tremendous time -- difficulty recruiting tops. this is the worst i've ever seen in my 50 years in terms of not only specifically to new york, but in general across the country. coming up, senate judiciary committee chairman dick durbin is our guest, talking about testimony from top ceos from social media companies. "morning joe" comes right back. s "morning joe" comes right back that's great. i know, i've bee telling everyone. baby: liberty. oh! baby: liberty. how many people did you tell? only pay for what you need. jingle: ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ baby: ♪ liberty. ♪

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skyline with some of the prestigious and elegant buildings. now donald trump brings his years of experience to the world of business education with the launch of trump university. >> oh my god. >> that is unbelievable. >> before there was the hush money payment to a porn star -- >> a lot of people paid a lot of money for that. >> and the woman that he sexually assaulted and attempting to overthrow american democracy and all that. >> people enrolled in that course, willie. >> donald trump found himself in legal trouble over a fraudulent business school he created. it wasn't real, willie. >> wait. we're not getting any willie reaction shots. >> i got the valedictorian of the class in 2008, mike barnicle. you have to pay a little extra to be the valedictorian. >> once you told -- i'm a graduate of trump u, those doors opened wide. >> right? >> all right. in november of 2016, just days

after being elected president, trump agreed to pay $25 million to the thousands of people he tricked into paying for classes at trump u over the course of a five-year period. jeez. joining us now, the prosecutor in that case, former assistant new york attorney general, tristan snell. he's the author of a new book entitled "taking down trump: 12 rules for prosecuting donald trump by someone who did it successfully." okay. >> thanks so much for being with us. what's the most important of the 12 rules? what's the first thing you got to know going in? >> the first thing is you got to actually have the right leadership in place. if you don't bring the case at all, if the prosecutor doesn't have the courage to bring the case -- >> right. >> let's say there is the credible accusations. >> right. >> if you don't actually start digging and green light the case, it's not going to go anywhere. >> when you do green light the case, you have to have total buy-in you say.

>> you have to have total buy-in through the ranks. it's got to come from the top official, whether it's elected or appointed and come down through the line of prosecutors and get out of the way and let those lines of prosecutors do the work. >> what's the next step? >> the middle part of the book talks about a bunch of steps around investigation and a lot of it is you've got to be able to fight back when trump stonewalls you. you've got to be creative about getting documents and testimony from other parties. like vendors. he doesn't pay those people a lot of times and they can be your allies and break open the case. >> there's a list in there. i'm looking at number 11 right now. trump will lash out. ignore it. that's such a big part of taking on trump as we've seen from these prosecutors. we've seen it from the judges and from defendants. we've seen it from e. jean carroll. he's going to attack you. >> of course. >> go after your credible, and how do you deal with that? >> he attacked me and in our case, he didn't attack me by name, but his lawyers accused me of fabricating the witness testimony. we had dozens of affidavits from these brave folks who were

willing to step forward and talk about what the happened. >> mm-hmm. >> he accused me of making it all up, and look. i had it easy. these folks have it hard. the folks that have been doing it, they have been doing it wonderfully. you have to have a stoic attitude and keep pushing and we saw it especially yesterday from e. jean carroll. the fact she kept pushing on this, and for years, that's the way to do it. you can't let him rattle you. >> isn't part of the reason a lot of people, whether prosecuting him or doing business with him, back up is because they don't want to take the battering and they get -- >> oh yeah. that's right. >> -- intimidated, and the reputations will be marred in some way, and isn't it that you have to have, you know, like, a stiff back? >> yes. >> in order to stand up to him because, you know, when you say, like, lead prosecutors and all, you had the advantage of someone that was at the top of the your office that had steel nerves that couldn't be intimidated.

isn't it that character that is required to go up against trump in any form? >> 100%. the intimidation factor and the co-opting factor that he was able to cozy up to some prosecutors and get them to stand down. he was able to evade justice for 40 years, really, and from 1973 when he first got sued for housing discrimination, all the way through 2013. he pretty much didn't have anything on them, and now you're starting to see that really turned the tide and now we're seeing more and more cases and private litigants trying to score hit points on him. >> the rule is to get trump under oath. >> yeah. >> isn't it meaningless when you are dealing with a pathological liar? i mean, get him under oath, that's one thing, and he's represented by lawyers who often don't get paid. >> yeah. yeah. >> i mean, that's sort of -- the degree of difficulty there is pretty high. >> the kicker though is that you're going to -- if you do it

right and robbie kaplan who's e. jean carroll's lawyer did a great job of this. it's not just getting him under oath, but managing to get just the right question in. not everybody would have thought to say, oh. let's show him the "access hollywood" tape. she did that, and some of the questions she asked. she asked him, are you a star? that's the whole thing. if you are a star, they let you do it. are you a star? that activated his narcissism. so all of a sudden, either he has to eat his ego and say, i'm not a star or he's going to ay, i am a star and that led him to the moments there where he said he had the right as a high-privileged male. >> the deposition was incredible to watch. >> it's the most devastating deposition maybe i've ever seen. >> i was transfixed watching the entire thing. it's really worth it and it reveals his true character, and also you do see how deft and brilliant the attorney is. >> they do a great job of that.

>> she just strings him along. >> i was looking at our notes. some of the memberships you call it into trump university cost $35,000? >> are you kidding me? >> people paid 35 grand for that? >> it was as much as tuition or more. it was an enormous amount of money. they upsold everybody to that. that was the key, and that's where they made a lot of the money. it ruined -- people lost their life savings. they lost their nest eggs. they lost their homes. they were in crippling credit card debt. it was horrible what he did, and these were his superfans. >> right. >> these were the people who loved him the most. these were people that loved him in the "apprentice." that's why they were coming to trump university. they loved him the most and he knifed them and took their money. >> god. >> you're really describing what's going on right now. >> that's exactly right. >> people who love him the most are writing checks to his campaign. >> or they're in jail. >> and he's taking that money, and he's using that money for criminal defense and --

>> mm-hmm. >> -- for civil defense. he's using that money for, you know, flying his jet around the country, you know, going from one, one lawsuit to another. the people who, you know, can afford it the least, mike, are the people that are giving him the most money right now. >> it leads to my question that i think a lot of people have, but you more than most have experienced with trump up front, up close. how many times did you think to yourself after this trial, you sit there watching tv and say, this guy became president of the united states? >> the whole thing was incredibly surreal. when we were doing the case, we would joke about what would happen if trump ever actually got into politics. it would be 30 seconds and a publicity stunt and he would be out because as soon as that glare came on him, you know, people would see him for what he was, and it's just been absolutely shocking, horrifying. i mean, i'm kind of numb to it now. you have to keep -- you have to keep pushing and you just have to keep on trying to tell the

truth about what it is, but it is. it's amazing to me, but he's -- truly he's conned as you were saying. he's conned these people, and we see it to this day, and people don't realize they have been conned right up until that critical moment. i think we're going to get there someday, but we're not day. a lot of folks who support him, will realize who he is, and he's not in their corner. >> the new book is entitled "taking down trump." former assistant new york attorney general tristan snell, congratulations on the book. >> thank you. >> thank you for bringing it here to us. coming up, it's the first day of black history month, and we'll be joined by the stars of a new series spotlighting the lives of several civil rights legends. that's ahead on "morning joe." we're back in just a moment. ad " we're back in just a moment.

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two leading candidates for senate. two very different visions for california. steve garvey, the leading republican, is too conservative for california. he voted for trump twice and supported republicans for years, including far right conservatives.

adam schiff, the leading democrat, defended democracy against trump and the insurrectionists. he helped build affordable housing, lower drug costs, and bring good jobs back home. the choice is clear. i'm adam schiff, and i approve this message. not just any whiteboard... ...katie porter's whiteboard is one way she's: [news anchor] ...often seen grilling top executives of banks, big pharma, even top administration officials. katie porter. never taken corporate pac money - never will. leading the fight to ban congressional stock trading. and the only democrat who opposed wasteful “earmarks” that fund politicians' pet projects. katie porter. focused on your challenges - from lowering housing costs to fighting climate change. shake up the senate - with democrat katie porter. i'm katie porter and i approve this message.

welcome back. it's been ten years since venture capitalist aileen lee coined now popular nickname for the rare startups at the time unicorns. the term refers to u.s.-based companies that are less than a decade old and valued at over a billion dollars. when lee made up that term, just 39 companies qualified. today, according to a new analysis from lee's company cowboy ventures, that number has grown to 532. here to discuss, editor of "forbes women," maggie mcgrath, and vice chairman, huma abedin. he's an msnbc contributor. you interviewed lee. she was an honoree by the way, on our 50 over 50 list for investment last year. what is the reason that she says for the growth and unicorn startups? >> well, there are several

factors at play here, mika. chief of which are the economic conditions that led for a massive flow of capital towards our nation's startups. we had low interest rates for a number of years there which added that and other conditions, $580 billion in the hands of investors going to these startups and then of course, with more funding comes higher valuations. we also have the growth of industries, the digitization of our lives like cloud, ai, that led to 19 new sectors represented among the unicorn set of 2023, 2024. aileen said she wasn't even tracking that in 2013. that didn't exist. so that is really good diversift analysis, there were 5% of the unicorns that had female founders and zero female ceos. those numbers have gone up to 14% of unicorns have a female

cofounder. 5% has a female ceo. the numbers have gone up. but there are more founders named michael, david and andrew than there are female ceos. it will take until 2063 to achieve female parity. >> i think the numbers speak for themselves and i think they're pretty positive. it shows there's room for growth, that there's been progress. we had the founder of fin tech unicorn called stack at our conference last year, showing how hard it was when she operated in that space. there's now evidence that shows that investing in female founding companies could be more beneficial than investing in male-founded companies, in part because women have to be scrappier just like minoriies have to be a little scrappier. when you look at the broader number, it's going to take 300

years for there to be gender equity in the world. for her to say by 2063 there would be gender parity in the space, i find that really encouraging. >> we honored the women who made our 50 over 50 list. she was one of the first women to launch a vc firm in the country. she's invested in many, including, dollar shave club and rent the runway. her advice for women. >> hang in there, especially for women and vulnerable people and folks who are general others, it can be hard and very discouraging. you're often the only woman or minority of some type in the room, so it's just harder. finding allies and knowing you're not alone in some way is really important. >> i think that's half the

battle. it's such good advice. we'll be hearing a lot more of this type of adviceentrepreneurs entrepreneurs. the summit is four weeks away. a lot to look forward to at the summit for sure. >> there's a lot to look forward to. i'm thrilled to say, speaking of entrepreneurs who have gotten a lot of funding, she is the founder and ceo of shear tech. if you're on tiktok, you've probably seen the viral ads. these are indestructible tights because she wants to eliminate disposable tights and pantyhose. she'll be sharing her entrepreneurial insights with us. >> this is such an interesting

dynamic group from shania twain to suze orormon. who else do we have coming? >> we're learning wisdom doesn't just necessarily come with age. i'm very excited that we have a 22-year-old canadian actress coming. this is such a great story. she shows up in 2019 to a casting call with 15,000 people a show created by mindy kaling who is such a pioneer herself. talk about a diverse woman of color who's led the way. she gets cast in this role as a main character in the show. this show goes on to become the number one show in 50 countries. she's on the forbes 30 under 30 list. to achieve that kind of success

and then go back to college. she's got another show that's about to debut. it's extraordinary. her character on the show is actually john mcenroe's voice. >> that's hilarious. >> she didn't know who he was when she started filming. >> fabulous. thank you both. you can get all the details about our upcoming 30/50 summit taking place march 5th through the 8th at forbes.com and knowyourvalue.com. it's in abu dhabi, the crossroads of the board. up next, an apology from meta's mark zuckerberg. and we'll talk with chairman dick durbin. keep it right here on "morning joe." dick durbin. keep it right here on "morning joe.

why is he even thinking like this? he is not running against taylor swift. if donald trump held a rally at sofi stadium, they would still have enough empty seats to also run a taylor swift concert that night. taylor swift is so popular, people want to watch her watching a football game. you're not even the most popular donald. it's still a cartoon duck with a speech impediment and no pants on. it won't be the election fraud or sexual assault or dancing with jeffrey epstein or even fathering don junior. what's finally going to bring down donald trump will be an army of pissed off swifties. to the fourth hour of

"morning joe." it is 6 a.m. on the west coast, 9 a.m. in the east. elise jordan, reverend al sharpton and mike barnicle back with us and katty kay. good to have all of you with us this hour. a group of prominent tech ceos faced bipartisan anger in a dramatic hearing on capitol hill yesterday that addressed child safety on social media. nbc news senior national correspondent kate snow has the latest. >> reporter: in a combative and emotional senate hearing -- >> you have blood on your hands. you have a product -- [ applause ] >> you have a product that's killing people. >> reporter: the ceos facing accusations they failed to protect children in elicit content, predators and extortion. >> your platforms really suck at policing themselves. >> reporter: meta ceo mark zuckerberg tangled with senators over his platform safety record.

>> it premiers you're trying to be the premier sex trafficking site. >> that's ridiculous. >> reporter: grief stricken families holding photos of children they say were victimized on the company's platform. >> would you like to apologize? >> reporter: pressed by republican senator john hawley, zuckerberg turned to address the family. [indiscernible] >> reporter: mary says her son riley was blackmailed over explicit photos on facebook messenger and was so distraught he took his own life. to her, zuckerberg's words rang hollow. >> he said, i'm sorry for your pain, but i don't think he is. >> reporter: six bills are waiting for action in the senate including legislation known as

the kids online safety act, which some ceos declined to support. >> there are parts of the act we think are great. >> it's a yes or no question. in its present form, do you support it? >> we are aware some groups have raised some concerns. >> i'll take that as a no. >> reporter: some parents remain skeptical. are you hopeful things might change after this? >> i've been in hearings before, but i'm not convinced that will happen. >> joining us now senate majority whip dick durbin of illinois. he's chairman of the judiciary committee and delivered the opening statements at yesterday's hearing. good to have you with us. you did point out the level of interest in the room yesterday, said it was the biggest crowd you'd ever seen in a hearing like that. before we get into the substance of what it was like in there, especially that moment when mark zuckerberg stood and offered an

apology to families in the room, what was it like? >> i hope you can imagine the emotion at the moment. we were sitting at the head part of the committee room and looked out at a sea of people, many of them holding signs for their deceased or injured child, begging us to do the right thing and to hold these big tech ceos accountable. i've been through a lot of hearings, but not one that really touched me as this did. the good news is, one year ago we passed five bills unanimously in that committee. take a look at the senators in that committee and imagine anything would unite them, but they were unanimous in belief that this has to be held accountable. >> it was definitely a very emotional andtraumatic hearing. not to undermine or underplay the value of bipartisan action on anything, especially the will yesterday in the room, it seemed like both democrats and

republicans agreed completely how dangerous social media is for young people. but what is this actually going to add up to? i mean, it seems that everybody agrees if you talk about it, that these companies should be able to face lawsuits and face consequences just like any other company in america. yet, where's the will to do that? >> i can tell you, you know as well as i do the senate is a placed designed to see great ideas come and languish and often die. the question is, will this be different? i think it could be, because we're dealing with a fundamental decision as to whether an industry which for decades now has escaped liability for any wrongdoing, it's finally going to be held accountable. i believe the one single thing we can do that will change things almost overnight is say they can be held responsible in court for their wrongdoing, like every other company in america.

>> senator durbin, there's been a strong lobbying effort from the industry and from privacy advocates against these kinds of bills. does this bill have the support or any of your bills of senator chuck schumer? is he behind this? >> i don't want to speak for chuck. he can speak for himself on the issue, but he has been open and forthcoming in terms of this idea moving forward. what we have to do is to give evidence to chuck as the leader in the senate that this is a bipartisan measure. secondly, we can device a reasonable procedure for amendment to bring this matter to the floor. i can't speak for the house and what they may do, but i think those are the key elements we need to convince schumer that we have in place. >> there's a sort of medieval quality to what happened yesterday with the ceos standing up and the gallery element of this. what is it that is holding up the legislation? the ceos seemed to be arguing

this was up to parents and parents should and could monitor what their children are having access to online. that didn't seem to satisfy you or any of the other senators in the committee. what's the holdup? why hasn't this been done before? >> it's a holdup because big tech is making a fortune under the current system. they don't want to change the rules. that's the bottom line. they're making too much money. at the expense of policing their ranks and making a safe product is too much for them. so they quietly, with stealth, try to undermine every activity that leads to regulation or accountability. that yesterday, i think, blew up in their faces. >> senator, as you know, a disproportionate amount of people impacted by this are young kids of color. you've fought on these issues for a while. do you get a sense of urgency from the fellow republican

senators, some of whom made dramatic speeches yesterday? but will they have a sense of urgency in pushing this legislation? or will they say there's blood on your hands, wash your hands and go back to work? >> i think they're going to stick to the unanimous vote in the committee for these measures. that's, i think, the amazing thing about this political undertaken. you know and i know how rare it is to have everybody cheering on the same side. we did yesterday. i think a lot of the people in the audience, my wife included who told me on the phone this morning i can't remember a hearing like this where everybody was in agreement, i think we've got a chance to do it. >> senator, you used the phrase earlier this morning that you hope this legislation holds these companies accountable. so my question to you is, how do we find out if they're accountable, tiktok, meta, x. they fool around with

algorithms. what's the proof that they're accountable? fewer suicides, fewer damaged children? how will we know they've been held accountable? >> imagine a child that you love, one of your own children or grandchildren who is being harassed, bullied and even threatened by activities on the internet. they find the source of it and notify the platform. what happens next? today little or nothing happens. if we do our job and do it right, there will be an immediate response that brings down this offensive material and other measures to protect these kids. the proof is going to be in the outcome that ultimately occurs. >> senator, what's going to happen on the border security bill and funding for israel and ukraine? it looks like the white house is striking a deal with republican senators and democratic senators, but donald trump is getting in the way. how does that end? >> you just put your finger on it, joe. we were moving forward with a bipartisan approach to the

border, long overdue. we were hours or days away from passage. donald trump decided he was going to torpedo it because he think it's a good political issue for the campaign. i hope there are enough stalwart republicans who step up and defy his efforts to stop this advance on our border policy. it remains to be seen whether that will happen, but we ought to move on it quickly. ukrainians need our help quickly. >> senator dck durbin of illinois, thank you so much. greatly appreciate it. it's a bad sign about a guy going off on sort of his planned spontaneity spiel to people yesterday when mark zuckerberg apologizes, says, i'm so sorry for your response, and then uses the phrase "industry-leading efforts."

it isn't true. you add on top of that, you know, it wasn't really even an apology. >> how can you apologize when you're still doing it? >> human interaction has never been a strength. we should start with that with a lot of these guys, particularly mark zuckerberg. i guess the big question was the one mike asked, which was, even if we pass legislation to hold them accountable, that's a nice step in the right direction, but it's a little like putting your finger in the dam and a million other leaks spring. it's a hard problem to get our arms around. for all the benefits of social media and of the internet, it has taken its toll. you just look at the data of what's happened to teenagers since iphones and social media became popular. it's just a fact. >> it is. moving to the election now, a new national poll shows joe biden beating donald trump in a

hypothetical general election matchup. in the latest quinnipiac university survey, biden leads trump by six points, 50% to 44% among registered voters. that is outside the poll's margin of error and up from a survey taken in december, which had biden ahead by only a single point. his new lead is driven largely by growing support among independents who now back biden by 12 points, twice as much as the previous poll. also among women, where biden's lead is now 22 points, up from 12 points in december. although the survey shows trump ahead of nikki haley in a republican primary, in a general election, haley leads biden by five points, 47% to 42%. meanwhile, the biden campaign yesterday put up a new video on truth social. >> donald trump is truly confused. >> nikki haley is in charge of

security. we offered her 10,000 people. they don't want to talk about that. >> he didn't just get me confused. he mentioned it over and over and over again. he's not what he feels in 2016. he has declined. that's a fact. >> last time we won 50 states, right? >> this is not donald trump of 2016, guys. >> what? >> he is off the teleprompter he can barely keep a cogent thought. that's just fact. >> i stumbled and mumbled purposely. i do speak in long, complex sentences and have a lot of material in each sentence. >> you have voter id to buy a loaf of bread. >> have you noticed he's a little confused these days? >> a person close to trump says that he's rattled by biden's efforts to get under his skin. >> worse than that, he seems to be rattled by the english

language. you need voter id to get a loaf of bread? it's hard to figure out where to start on that one. >> you know, if you go back years reading transcripts, which i have to say i've spent far too much time of my life doing reporting on donald trump. you read his sentences. they just don't make sense. he does speak in these weird, long, complex sentences. what's changed recently is this mistaking of things that you can show, nikki haley for nancy pelosi, victor orban as the president of turkey. he's getting facts wrong. i think the biden campaign has really gone into rapid response mode in a way that it hasn't been. it's been kind of sleepy for the last year, and something has kicked in. the combination of the biden campaign going on offense and drawing on these things very quickly, nikki haley, a republican, kind of doing the

biden white house's job for them and these better economic numbers coming through showing consumers are finally feeling a little bit more confident about the u.s. economy, that's all leading to a kind of fresh sense of optimism certainly from the biden campaign. >> you look at the numbers. if anything about u.s. politics made any sense right now, you look at the numbers, yeah, of course a guy doing what he's done over the past month is going to lose independent voters and women. that's not always been the case. at least in this one poll, it looks like it is having an impact. >> well, you look at new hampshire and who he did not win in that state. he didn't win independents. women were not happy with donald trump. it shows the problems he's going to have when it comes to winning states like pennsylvania, wisconsin, arizona, where he's going to have to appeal to some

independents. >> you've known donald trump for a long time. has he lost a step or two here? >> i definitely think he's lost a step or two. he was always a guy that you didn't understand what he was saying, but now when you get down to him calling people over and over again the wrong name or talking about the death penalty, he's incoherent now. >> what was that? >> when you get to the point of incoherence, then we know he's in serious trouble. >> he had that long riff about debanking the other day too. they want to debank you. he was bragging also the other day about passing the dementia test that he's made for himself. >> after he beat obama, he passed the dementia test.

obama never ran against him. >> listening to that clip we just played, it revives an old trauma in myself the day i wanted a peanut butter and jelly sandwich at the grocery store. i didn't have my id. i couldn't get it. >> trump would say things like he didn't know what brexit was or what the eu was. it would just be kind of dumb and ignorant. but the loaf of bread, needing a voter id is just weird. you really wonder if he's slipping. >> serious question. do you think donald trump has ever bought a loaf of bread in a grocery store in his life? >> no. >> i don't think he's ever been in a kroger. coming up on "morning joe," the markets are rebounding a little bit this morning after yesterday's selloff fuelled by

news from the federal reserve. andrew ross sorkin and stephanie ruhle will join us with insight on that. we'll also explain what elon musk could lose after his big payday deal was blocked by a court in delaware. and we're so excited about this. the final season for "curb your enthusiasm," and tomorrow larry david will join us here on set. i'm dying. e on set i'm dying.

♪♪ 22 past the hour. a beautiful shot of los angeles.

>> los angeles in the rain. >> the federal reserve is keeping interest rates at their current level. officials made the announcement yesterday, but signalled they may soon lower borrowing costs. this as consumer confidence has been improving and inflation is declining. let's bring in andrew ross sorkin and stephanie ruhle. >> andrew, help us sort through it all. what's it all mean? >> i know you hate me every time i say it's good news/bad news. it means that the economy is actually super strong. it's stronger than anybody expected. frankly, it's stronger than the fed expected. the reason they would lower interest rates in march would be they'd start to get worried that maybe the economy would soften a

bit. he's effectively saying this economy is moving and grooving. for now, at least, he wants to see it continue that way and is going to be waiting effectively for some period of time to lower those rates. that's the good news. the bad news, is of course, if you have a credit card bill or mortgage, your rate is not coming down any time soon. >> jay powell basically said that yesterday. that is rare. you don't see the fed chair get in front of the podium and say this economy is strong. that's what you're seeing yesterday. inflation is cooling, the economy is growing. this is the best recovery in the world. for any republicans who want to continue to try to keep battering the economy, yes, life is expensive, you can't argue that, but this is a strong economy. that's why you see them pivoting

so hard to immigration. they can't keep beating on the economy. >> the resilience is extraordinary. >> the biggest question, i think, that remains to be asked or answered, when the rate cuts begin as jay powell has indicated will start over the next couple of months, will he be able to withstand the political heat he will get from donald trump? it would be incredible. >> you know, i think i'd say super important point, mike. what you've seen over the years is, as we get closer to an election in an election year, the fed oftentimes gets a little bit anxious about should they even be doing anything with interest rates for fear of people saying it's politicized. in particular, i think jay powell wants to be seen as a true independent actor. i think as we get closer to the election, to the extent they do anything, it will almost be a

contraian view to whatever you think is political. there's no question he is going to be pillaried by donald trump. >> remember, donald trump has been beating jay powell up back when jay powell was his own treasury secretary. i think at this point jay powell will be able to take it. when the rate cut happens, it's going to be the right thing to do. >> let me ask you about the congressional hearings from the judiciary committee yesterday where you had mark zuckerberg turn and apologize to families who have lost loved ones because of thins that have been posted on meta or instagram.

the sense is these guys go in once a year, they take their beating, it's a bad day for them generally, but then the companies go about their business as it was. is there any sense, any fear in silicon valley that things may change in this moment for them? >> i think the way you just described it may be sad and cynical, i think that's what it is. they go in, there's a conversation about regulation and nothing comes of it. i think there are serious questions both from a technology perspective and a fphilosophica perspective about how you would regulate social media. there's an argument to be made they could try harder.

there's a question of could you delay the way social media works, if it wasn't all realtime, wouldn't they be able to take certain things off and create support systems for young people? i think all of those issues are so complicated, even just discussing them in the 30 seconds i have just now, you can see how difficult this is. i think it's probably why we haven't seen anything happen. >> andrew's pessimism, i think, is 100% right. take lindsey graham yesterday. lindsey graham was making a really effective argument going after mark zuckerberg, saying, you don't think these people should be able to sue you? and zuckerberg was stumped. look at this bipartisan moment, this is happening. then peel back the hood. it was in 2005 when lindsey graham had the opportunity to vote to hold gun manufacturers liable, to give victims the right to sue gun manufacturers. he went the other way and he

voted to protect them, to give them immunity. all of these lawmakers are up there pounding their fists saying something has to be done, and they haven't done anything yet. they put on a big show, and at the end of the day, it will most likely be just that, a big show. >> the lobbyists come and give them money, a ton of it, and they don't do anything. andrew, let's talk about tesla, elon musk and a compensation bill that raised questions from the start. >> well, okay. let's talk about it. to bring everybody up to speed, elon musk was given a pay package in 2018 that effectively meant that if he hit certain targets at the time, targets that people thought were outlandish and crazy, he would make the equivalent of 50-some-odd billion dollars.

he hit them, to everybody's surprise. one of the shareholders sued, saying that he was overcompensated, should never have received this money, and the board was not independent when they negotiated this deal. the deal was voted on by shareholders afterwards, who voted in the majority to allow it. the judge has now said this can't happen, and it can't happen because they don't believe the board was independent and they believe shareholders didn't understand this was not an arm's length transaction. as a result, elon musk is saying he wants to get away from delaware where the company was incorporated and move to texas. bring on the haters. i'm on the opposite side of this. i broke the story back in 2018. we talk about pay for performance, at the time it did seem crazy. it seemed absurd. i remember saying he's never going to make these numbers. he was going to get no money if he didn't hit the numbers. it wasn't that he got a little bit or a lot. it was zero.

it was zero for zero. of course the numbers were to crazy, and yet here he's turned the company to one of the most valuable companies in america. obviously people have disagreements about his politics and everything else. but on this -- >> that do you think stephanie? >> does he have a totally stacked board? yes, he does. does he have all sorts of shareholders that are absolute fan boys? yes, he does. he worked the system. he played the game, and it worked for him. if you run a public company, you have to deal with the fcc and shareholders. now you've got judges saying this might not work. elon musk doesn't like it. he might want to move where the business is incorporated. he doesn't like being public and having this problem, but one of the benefits of being in the public market is access to capital.

he used tesla stock to buy twitter. this is a complication of the game. i think elon musk is kind of right in this one. >> has he ever heard of corporate governance, though? i know you're guest this policy i'm about to propose. but he has a billion dollars in stock options. >> i understand that. but here's the thing. elon musk stacked his board and the world let him. he created a company and people were lining up worshipping tesla. how on earth can elon musk do all these things and never get stopped? >> it doesn't seem democratic to not let shareholders get what they voted for. >> andrew ross sorkin and stephanie ruhle, thank you. still ahead, coming off an

endorsement from the united autoworkers union, president biden is looking for another big union to back him in his bid for reelection. can he win the support of the teamsters? we'll talk about that next on "morning joe." t next on "morning joe."

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welcome back to "morning joe," fourth hour. it is 37 past the hour. president biden is heading to michigan today, where he is expected to meet with members of the united autoworkers including the union's president shawn fain. the group just endorsed president biden last week. meanwhile, president trump met with the teamster's leadership

yesterday in a bit to gain that endorsement, something biden won back in 2020. after the meeting, trump told reporters he thinks there's a good chance he'll earn their support this time around. teamsters' president was a little more measured in his reaction. >> we have a long way to go before we make a decision. there is no doubt about there is union support for president trump. there's always been support for president biden. look, president biden has done a lot of work for union members. he fixed 300 pension funds on the verge of being insolvent, created a lot of jobs and issues that were important to us. but what you've done in the past does not guarantee you the support of us. we want to know what you're going to do for our members going forward. >> here you have joe biden being

the most pro-union president in a generation maybe and doing so many things, while you had donald trump working nonstop undercutting unions, undercutting the board, undercutting laws that would help them out. at the same time, there is a friction in there because a lot of union members have been voting republican for a long time. >> there's no doubt about that, joe. with regard to the teamsters when shawn o'brien says they haven't done their due diligence yet, their due diligence will show and prove exactly what you just referred to. donald trump has spent a lifetime being anti-labor at every level. reverend al, you know this better than most of us. you witnessed what he's done to unions and building trades, construction unions, things like that. >> and he took a lot of pride in it. we're not talking about someone that wanted to quietly sidestep it.

he'd brag about he was not going to do certain things with unions. he'd brag about how he didn't deal with labor, what he would call trying to intimidate him. he was the tough guy. for him now to try to recast himself in any way prolabor is ridiculous. >> that's it, what you just said. he proves he stands up and says i'm the tough guy. he's not a tough guy, but a lot of union members think he's the tough guy because they see him acting like a tough guy. it's an act. >> they don't see what's doing to the ntsb board or union activities or things that really matter. they certainly saw what joe biden did during the autoworkers' strike. these are going to be key endorsements. the states that matter the most are going to be pennsylvania, michigan and wisconsin. those are the states that are

going to be the heart of this contest. >> look, the teamsters represent 1.3 million american workers and many of them in those rust belt states. if he wins pennsylvania, he's cruising to victory in the election. there's a big difference between 2024 and 2016, when union workers helped win donald trump the white house. that's china. u.s. companies are just not offshoring their jobs to china anymore in the way they were before the 2016 election. so the ptency of that argument has diminished significantly. china's not the big player anymore in terms of american labor arguments. i don't think in 2024 it's going to have the same resonance with union workers. >> coming up, the latest installment of national geographic's installment series

explores the civil rights movement. installment series explores the civil rights movement

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>> we can change the course of history. >> that was just part of the new trailer for the new season of the national geographic series "genius mlkx. the show chronicles the lives of reverend dr. malcolm x with particular focus on their wives. joining us now, two of the show's costars. thank you so much for coming on. i love this angle, looking at really the personal lives of these two couples, of these four individuals. what have you learned about coretta scott king, about the relationship that you brought to light in this? >> i learned so much. i'm british, so we don't actually have that much

information about martin luther king or malcolm x. when i got this job, it was a wonderful opportunity to completely educate myself and be part of the process of educating a new generation and the next generation about coretta scott king and martin. i think especially the women have been sidelined a lot in the civil rights movement. so i think that was tennessee valley -- so i think that was tennessee valley - definitely a highlight for me to be part of highlighting the women and their contribution to the movement. >> i'm so excited. i knew both women. i was too young to know malcolm. i was about 8 when he was killed. i only saw dr. king twice. i was 12 when he was killed. but i got to know both of their widows. ms. king was responsible for me learning how to be a little more pragmatic.

>> i worked closely with her son. and betty shabazz is my daughter's god mother. talk about how they were the ones that really drove their husbands. they were partners. coretta scott king was the copilot of the civil rights movement and betty shabazz kept malcolm strong. i used to hear them talk about this when they would talk to me in private. >> i love the fact you said they weren't just housewives. you don't have a malcolm x and a dr. martin luther king, jr. without womens, wives who were also dreamers, who were also activists. these were women who challenged their ideals and really parcelled through a lot of the sermons and messages they were going to speak about. they gravitated to these women for that, that they had a mind

of their own, that they had dreams and aspirations of their own. history has done this weird thing of making it seem as women have now just started to have agency as if that wasn't a thing ever before. so one of the things i love that this show is doing is highlighting the fact that coretta and betty were women of agency that really fought side by side with their husbands for the movement and for their community. >> obviously the relationship to men was fraught. they had different views of how civil rights should be pursued. that was the relationship like between the two women, between their wives? >> i don't think they ever met until after their husbands were taken from them. until after their husbands were taken from them. you weruche what was the relationship like between the two wives? >> i don't think they ever met until after their husbands were taken from them. what we found and discussed they were two women who although they were living separate lives were

living the same life they had the same experiences, having their husbands being on the road, chasing the movement and being home taking care of the children and still being that support system for th so i think they definitely lived similar lives and when they met, i can imagine it was just a kindred spirit kind of situation. >> yes. >> t the creative friction between the two. that may be a polite way to put it. but how they both had their agendas came from completely different points and, yet, moved civil rights. >> dr. kingci led the non-viole church-based movement basically in the south. malcolm x was a lieutenant of the honorable elijah mohammad and was muslim and was more self-defense. and i growing up in the north following dr. king wasn't exactly popular, but i think that the thing that is touching about what they're saying is

both women did get together after both were killed. i remember when betty shabaz was burned, which led to burns with her grandson, that i was at the hospital with the daughter and mrs.it king came to see betty shabaz in the hospital before she died, and i think it was more important what you could address, both of them kept their movements going. m yes. >> there wouldn't have been a legacy or a holiday for dr. king without coretta scott king. >> yes. >> these women, it goes back to that g point earlier of these women had to have some level of agency in order to know how to continue their legacy because -- or elseeg history would have completely erased both men. let's be very boclear, and so there was a knowing fight that both womenow had to continue on the work even after their husbands were taken from them. and just to touch on a point earlier that you said about their relationship, the men being fraught, i think the

series is goingfr to do a wonderful job ofo correcting tt narrative because what we will see iswi that it wasn't so much that they were -- had a fraught relationship. they just had different points of views anden different ways i to reach different audiences, different people that martin couldn't reach malcolm's audience and malcolm couldn't reach martin's, and so we'll see the ways in which they echo each other and side by side, how the actually throughout history come together in a certain way to really spearhead this movement. >> wow. >>me and talk about what -- whai find fascinating about both of their stories are the final st years, the struggles. we see martin luther king, the march on washington, and we don't seehi him struggling over the next three, four, five years as he starts to lose support. malcolm x, of course, we all know more about sort of those internal struggles with the movement, but talk about that,

the ends of their lives being so difficult. >> i think the show does a wonderful job in showing the lives, the personal lives as well. i mean, these men were incredibly young when theyi started doing the work they did. they were both killed at 39, and which is bizarre because that means they started from like 20s, mid-20s, and so they were still figuring their lives out while creating and being part ob this incredible movement that we are now still part of or, you know, experiencing. so this show i think does a wonderful job in showing the struggles, the s anxieties, the fear. we see what these men have done. we've seen almost our greatest hits, but where the show tries toes show the intricacies, you know, the humanity of them. i'm sure they were terrified. i'm sure they were scared dealing with families and all wi sorts. they were so convinced about what they were doing that they were willing to risk it all, and it paid off. >> let's, as we close, take a look at a scene in which your characters are y preparing thei

husbands to go to capitol hill to advocate for the passage of the civil rights act. >> so i had three choices. >> none of this would have been possible without you. >> well, they haven't passed it yet and senator thurmond is doing all that he can to make sure it never happens. >> we should invite the senator to montgomery, show him what happens to those who fight on the side of never. >> you sure you want to go through withwa this? these people will trywi to run u out of town. >> well, you know i don't run. >> then walk fast. >> the first two episodes of "genius: mlk/x" premier today on national geographic and stream tomorrow on disney plus andeo hulu. the first episode will also air tonight on abc at 9:00 eastern. weruche opia and jamie lawson,

thank you botham very much for coming on the show. >> thank you all. >> thanks for having us. >> congratulations. >> thank you so much. >> all right, good to meet you. good luck. >> thank you.ha >> and that does it -- >> let's give rev final thoughts here. >> all right, we can do that. >> final thoughts to the man -- >> well, final thoughts obviously dr. king and malcolm expertnd changed america, and i shows we can have different ff tactics, but we have to have the same goal, and hopefully we will have a strong person behind us like coretta was and betty was to make sure the world understands t who we are. so i think that they're doing that is great. and all of us don't have that, but joe,ve you've got that. >> you've got that. >>ou she tells me what to do. >> only you behind her. >> exactly. >> don't get it twisted. >> that you think, guys, so much. that does it for us this morning. ana cabrera picks up the coverage after a quick final break.oes mo

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