why it's a good question. these different iranian proxy groups are differently controllable, if you will. and the houthis may well go on doing whatever they want regardless of the directions they get from iran. at least over the short term, as admiral stavridis said earlier. each one of these things is connected, but each one of them has its own rhythm. it's got its own driving forces underneath it. and each one has to be addressed independently. >> david and mark, thank you very much. again, more than 85 strikes, three in iraq and four in syria. seven sites total. that's going to do it for me today. thank you to all of our experts and reporters. "the reidout" with joy reid picks up our coverage next. good evening, everyone. we begin "the reidout" tonight is breaking news. the u.s. has launched new air

strikes against iran-backed targets in iraq and syria in retaliation for a drone attack that killed three american soldiers. here's the first video we're seeing from the region, an iraqi security official said a u.s. air strike targeted a weapons warehouse and three houses belonging to hezbollah in anbar province. it happens the same day that president biden attending the arrival of troops from jordan. forces conducted the air strikes against iran's islamic revolutionary guard force and afitiated militia groups. they struck more than 85 targets with numerous aircraft to include long-range bombers flown from the united states. president biden released a statement saying in part, quote, our response began today. it will continue at times in places of our choosing. the united states does not seek conflict in the middle east or anywhere else in the world.

but let all those who might seek to do us harm know this. if you harm an american, we will respond. let me bring in nbc news chief international correspondent keir simmons in iraq. nbc news chief foreign affairs correspondent andrea mitchell, "new york times" pentagon correspondent helene cooper, and retired lieutenant general steven twitty, of u.s. european command and msnbc analyst. i think it's important to know who these groups are. if you can tell us who it is and why they are located in iraq of all places. >> reporter: well, that's a good question. i think first of all, this operation tonight by the u.s. is going to put the spotlight firmly on just how embedded iran and its proxy groups are in this region. in syria, principally, but also here in iraq. just the scale of it will tell you something about the scale of how iran has frankly in many

ways taken over here. particularly in syria, in recent years. now, you mentioned kotb hezbollah, that group that was targeted. that is the group that is accused of carrying out the drone strike that killed those three u.s. service members at tower 22. it happened in anbar province, that is along that border between iraq and syria. it's in iraq, and up to the border with jordan, tower 22 is there along that border with jordan. so that is one target that we know about. and we're having to piece together, by the way, what we have been told by the u.s. and what we're hearing from reports here in the region that aren't confirmed but seem to make sense. so there is that part of it. and then there is another part of it inside syria. that is a place and around it,

that is a place where we also know there are a lot of these iranian backed militia. and in fact, there is an iranian base along that line near that border. and that, again, appears to have been targeted because we have heard about explosions there and things. in fact, the syrian observatory for human rights, which began during the syrian civil war, monitoring things says that there are 17 sites that have been targeted there. so what more does that tell us? well, it actually tells us that while this is a powerful operation by the u.s. tonight, it also is limited, it seems. it may be the first wave. we haven't heard about strikes, for example, around damascus airport, just as an example. we know that the iranian revolutionary guard is there. we know that the israelis have targeted places around that airport. for example, so i think what we are seeing is both an attempt by

the biden administration to send a powerful message to tehran, and this is bigger than we have seen for many years, but equally at the same time, it is a limited message, a message we are hitting the places that we think are connected to the killing of those u.s. service members. the hope will be tehran will get the message that the u.s. is prepared to escalate if it escalates. the danger is tehran will not shift from its strategy which is to put pressure on israel and also to try to push the u.s. out of this region. and just to finish, talking about trying to push the u.s. out of this region, here in iraq, the risk is that this action puts pressure on the iraqi government to actually do exactly that. iraq is both a partner of the

u.s. and a partner of iran. and we have a statement tonight from the iraqi prime minister, who is talking about these strikes constitute a violation of iraqi sovereignty and undermining of the efforts of the iraqi government and a threat that will drag iraq and the region into unforeseen consequences. we should caveat that by pointing out frankly the iraqi government does face in two directions and it has -- it has made statements like this before when the u.s. has carried out strikes in iraq. that's been pretty much the end of it. but it does underscore the many, many complexities and challenges for the biden administration as it undertakes this operation to try to shift the needle in terms of the way iran has been behaving during these recent years, particularly, and at the same time not escalate to the extent you get a reaction from iran and its proxies and then things escalate further towards more of a regional war.

>> and i will just note that for our audience, the supreme leader of iran, he essentially has a posture of avoid a direct war with the united states, distant iran from the actions of proxies who have killed americans, but prepare to hit back if the united states were to directly strike iran. i want to stay with you, keir, for a moment. for a lot of people, if we could put the map back up. we probably need a bigger map. if you could briefly explain, what is the relationship, keir, because we know iran has proxies throughout the region, clearly in iraq. but also the houthis who we have been talking about previous to this, who are the ones who have been, you know, attacking shipping lanes, but that's far south. not even on the map. it would be far down there, in yemen. what is the relationship between the houthis and this group, katib hezbollah and iraq?

>> well, they're different groups but they are both iranian proxies. these proxies are variously close or not so close to tehran. but basically, they're backed by tehran and sponsored by tehran. and the strategy, the iranian strategy is to use these proxies to carry out these kinds of attacks that iran then can't be blamed for. there's a purpose in the distance as part of the strategy. so that's why -- that's why you see that map. and that's been the iranian policy for a long time. you bring up the houthis and it's a good point to make because of course one of the issues will be tonight that with the houthis, a number of strikes, i think we get towards ten perhaps in yemen against the houthis, hasn't stopped them from continuing to try to target commercial shipping in the red sea. so that is a warning that

despite these strikes tonight, there is a question mark over whether the iranian militias here will respond by backing off. and actually just this week, you saw one of the groups has an umbrella organization, one of those groups said we're going to stop launching these attacks. another one today said we're going to carry on. and we're going to carry on with our policy of putting pressure on israel and push america out of the reemgen. doesn't matter what you do. >> keir simmons, always so valuable to get a chance to talk to you. thank you very much. i'm going to go to andrea mitchell, my good colleague and friend andrea mitchell. we can broaden this out. i know you were on the call earlier, so you have a lot of up to date information. give us a sense of how the administration is thinking about this, because for americans who recall that obviously we had a war in iraq. it used to be a sunni minority government in iraq, but iraq has always been a shiite majority country governed by saddam

hussein, but it is a shiite majority country, which is how it has an association and affiliation with iran. talk about how this has all metastasized from attacks on shipping by one group, which is an iran proxy, to now the killing of three americans by another group which is an iran proxy. and how close does that bring us into direct conflict potentially with iran? >> such a good question. the through line is iran, of course. iran as the sponsoring country that arms, weaponizes all of these proxy groups. that doesn't necessarily direct them, and the u.s. has been careful to say that they hold iran responsible because they back these groups. that iran could perhaps stop them and has not stopped them. but they are separate groups and separate in different ways. the houthis are completely undisciplined and have been undeterred by all of the responses. hezbollah has been actually very

disciplined. we have seen tit for tat along that northern border, but hezbollah, which is part of the lebanese government, has clearly not been wanting a direct u.s. versus lebanon or israel versus lebanon war again because of the damage that ensued the last time that happened. i think the fact that hezbollah did not get directly involved in an all-out war with israel has a lot to do with the deterrence of the two carrier groups earlier. and of course, there's hamas, which is divided. there are more militant hamas leaders inside gaza that were meeting and orchestrating the october 7th massacre, and others who are more the political wing that are stationed in qatar and doha. and have indirect communication with the u.s. and israel through qatar, the leaders in qatar, one of whom i spoke with here just on monday when he was here in

town. so you have all of these other pieces involved in the diplomacy, which they hope can still continue. and secretary clinton is leaving this weekend on his fifth shuttle to try to end the gaza war, get massive amounts of aid into not only into gaza but to the people who really need it, what's described by blinken and others as humanitarian catastrophe. they agree with the united nations, and also, of course, get the hostages back. israel has its right-wing ministers in the most conservative coalition government that's ever led israel. netanyahu is speaking more to them to try to keep them in line, but has signed off indirectly, well, directly through his participants, three israeli intelligence leaders who were in paris for those negotiations on that. so that's the diplomatic front. and of course, qatar and egypt were involved. the u.s. and israel directly

involved and they signed that text. they're trying to avoid an all-out war with iran. they're trying to do that. iran is supposedly trying to do that. they have hit the revolutionary guard, admiral kirby and general sims from the joint chiefs at the pentagon were very clear on this call that went on for quite some time, about 45 minutes tonight with all of our reporters, the u.s. reporters. saying that they want to avoid widening the war. they went after seven targets. four that were in syria, three in iraq. revolutionary guard targets and others. revolutionary guard is part of the iranian regime, but is not territorially iran. they used b-1 bombers from the u.s., refueled along the way, and precision guided weapons, trying to avoid civilian casualties, but they were not avoiding irgc leaders in the

command and control centers clearly in those facilities. so there were casualties, but they say that they were avoiding civilian casualties. >> and let me just, so we can widen it out, helene, let me bring you in here so everyone can understand sort of the state of play here. describe and explain to the audience the relationship between all of this, all that has happened from obviously the houthi attacks on red sea shipping were in response, and they say was a protest against what israel is doing in gaza. the drone attack that killed these three american soldiers. was that also an attack that was related to what's happening in gaza? because these questions of a wider war are whether or not iran is now quietly backing without doing it directly, forces that are attempting to pressure the united states and israel. have i described that

accurately? >> hi, joy. thanks for having me. that's one way to describe it, yes. it's not inaccurate. i think that in the case of the houthis, they definitely say that they're doing this, their attacks on the red sea, on shipping in the red sea in solidarity with the palestinians in gaza. and that is nominally the case for the other groups as well. but i would say the shia militia groups that iran backs, this is more, i think, a target of opportunity, a chance for them to strike at the united states while at the same time say, give credit in the middle east for solidarity with the palestinians. i don't think they are as much -- i guess i would say i don't really buy that as much as i do in the case of the houthis. it's a really interesting point

that we are at right now because the biden administration has been very clear from the start that we do not want a wider war. president biden is the one who, you know, you saw ended the american presence in afghanistan. he's stayed out of ukraine. the last thing he wants in an election year when he's facing donald trump is going into another war in the middle east. but at the same time, these groups knew this as well. the united states has been very clear that killing -- you know, there have been a lot of attacks on american bases ever since the israel gaza hamas war started. but they haven't come with american troop casualties. and that was a red line. and you know, there is some debate over whether just how nervous iran got after these

troops were killed. you saw the iran irgc head say on wednesday that iran didn't seek a wider war. you saw katib hezbollah put out a statement saying they were going to halt their attacks after that. there was a lot of going to ground among a lot of these militia leaders because they knew once they cross that red line what was coming, and president biden certainly telegraphed that this response was going to come. so you know, this is a case of you poke the bear and eventually, this was always the fear. at some point, you get an american service member, once you start crossing the line and getting american deaths, you're going to see a bigger response than the milder type of response you have seen so far to the houthis who have not been responsible at this point for any american deaths. >> indeed, and that's why i want to bring you in here, general

steven twitty, because it is so dramatically escalatory to do a drone attack that kills american troops, because it is clear, that's beyond poking the bear, isn't it? so measure for us the breadth of this response and its appropriateness in regard to the fact that this was an escalatory act by these groups, katib hezbollah, which i should note is not the hezbollah in lebanon. you have to keep a lot of names in mind, talk about this response and how proportionate it seems to you from a military point of view. >> yeah, first of all, if i could quickly go back to the topic that we have been talking about. we first have to understand that iran is the largest sponsor of terror groups in the world. and they use these proxies and surrogates to carry out their

strategic objectives and their malign activities throughout the middle east. and these proxies also have their separate agendas within their own regions, whether it be the houthis or whether it be so forth, they also have separate agendas. at the end of the day, iran funds, trains, aids these proxy groups to carry out instability in the middle east. now, in regards to the strike, what i will tell you is, when you look at the grand scheme of it, 85 targets. significant targets throughout the region. of note, if you take a hard look at this, no attacks inside iran. no attacks against the houthis. no attacks against hezbollah. no attacks against hamas. so when you look at this in the grand scheme of things, it was

pretty proportionate and went after the militant groups, katab hezbollah and also the islamic resistance in iraq. it also attacked the cuds forces. their ammunition depots, their radar capability. these are the targets that hit at the heart of the three americans that were killed. and i can guarantee you, we're going to wait and see and make a battle damage assessment to see how this all goes and there may be restrikes in this. but we're also going to look at iran's response, hezbollah's response, the houthis' response. i can guarantee you we have targets on the target list in case they decide to escalate things in this war. all of this we're trying to do as a balancing act to insure that we do not ignite a war

between iran and the u.s. or create further instability in the middle east. >> valuable voices, and i appreciate all of you for making time to help educate our audience and get everyone to understand what is going on. andrea mitchell, my valuable friend. helene cooper, thank you. lieutenant general stephen twitty. thank you. stay with us for more on the retaliatory strikes in iraq and syria.

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national security correspondent dan you lose. as we continue to cover these strikes by the u.s. forces in iraq, what happens next, dan? what are you hearing? >> well, of course, they're not telegraphing exactly what comes next, but i think it's fair to assume that now that we have seen dozens of strikes in iraq and syria against these iranian-backed militias, that at some point soon, the u.s. will turn its focus on the houthi forces in yemen that have created such a headache in the red sea and the gulf of aden for commercial cargo ships, firing missiles and drones at those commercial ships with the u.s. navy there trying to fend off those drone attacks and those missile attacks. now, so what we could see is a real ramp-up in strikes against those houthis forces that are

firing the drones and missiles in yemen. they are also backed, armed, and finances by iran. the other thing i think we have to look for is what will be the response of these militia groups that have just been targeted by this pretty major operation today on the ground. will they go to ground? will they kind of conceal themselves? will they come out and fight and try to retaliate and escalate further? what will iran's reaction be? i think these are all questions because the dilemma of course, as we have been talking about on the show tonight is can the u.s. deter iran with this kind of operation? or does this end up being something where iran then escalates and we're up this ladder of escalation and we might end up in a war that maybe neither side wants. kind of guns of august world war i scenario. too soon to say, but i think we're going to see more air strikes, definitely, probably

tomahawk missiles at some point, fired from ships there in the persian gulf. >> thank you. valuable information. let's bring in former deputy national security adviser ben rhodes. okay, ben, i love explainers. can we put the map back up. i love seeing you, but i want to get the map up one more time. for people to understand what's going on and look at this map, you have this situation that begins with hamas attacking israel. israel then going to war in gaza. and then reaction of that ends up being against u.s. and european ships in the red sea, which you can see straight down the middle next to saudi arabia, between saudi arabia and egypt, so shipping that really is european, israeli, and american shipping. and now, attacks inside of jordan. you can see the right up there, that ends up injuring some 50-odd american troops and

killing three. just to have people sort of understand why it is that the u.s. winds up in this position, because it is -- the u.s. is seen as the backer of israel. so whatever they do, people attribute it in some sense to us. and then iran is the backer of all these little groups. two called hezbollah. hamas, and the houthis. have i explained that correctly, that this is sort of the war, both are seen as proxies? israel is viewed in the region as in a sense our proxy, and iran has these proxies and they're directing them, maybe not directing them, but that's sort of how it looks. >> yeah, joy. you're right. and to just build off this a little bit because it gets complicated. but october 7th, you have hamas launched this brutal terrorist assault into israel. then you have this overwhelming israeli military response in gaza, which precipitates the humanitarian disaster. all of these groups are a bit

different. you have hezbollah in lebanon. you have these militias that are backed by the iranian revolutionary guard in iraq and syria. you have the houthis in yemen. what they all share in common in addition to the fact that they draw some support from iran is that they all see themselves as the vanguard of standing up to israel and standing up to the united states in trying to push the united states and its military presence out of this region. so it's in the kind of dna of these groups when you have a war like what's happening in gaza, it's in their dna to start activating themselves. so hezbollah in lebanon starts firing rockets into northern israel, starts getting into tit for tat with israel and lebanon. then these groups in iraq and syria, these militias, they have been fighting some of these dating back to the u.s. occupation of iraq. they started to attack u.s. forces way back in the bush years when we were in iraq. they have been operating ever since. when there was a syrian civil

war, some of these groups were fighting on the side of the assad regime against the free syrian army and some of the groups backed by the united states. the houthis have been in a war for years with a saudi-led coalition that was seeking to dislodge the houthis. the point is, all of these groups, what they share in common is they want to stand up to the united states, be a part of fighting back against israel, they want to be chaos agents. they want to show there's a cost the world is going to have to pay, that's the attacks on shipping so long as the bombardment of gaza goes on. iran is obviously an important actor here. what is complicated is i don't think iran is sitting there and directing them, hey, hit this base in jordan on this day or launch this attack on shipping in the red sea. that's not really how it works. not a straight command and control type operation. they do provide weapons and money and other things to them. so what the u.s. is doing now is

they're essentially targeting these whole network of groups. they're not targeting inside of iran. they're also not targeting hezbollah in lebanon because they're the biggest and most sophisticated of these, and hezbollah has been coshing not to target the united states either. we're going after the groups in the middle in syria and iraq as well as yemen. >> this is great. now i want to do two more. let me do the next one being the question for a lot of people, i think, we're now bombing iraq. we were obviously -- we occupied iraq, we had a war against iraq that a lot of people questioned during the bush administration. but iraq used to be a country that was ruled, run by a sunni. they thought it was an apostate, but a sunni, saddam hussein, but it is a majority shiite country. iran is the biggest shiite, the different branches of islam, but the biggest group on earth of muslims are sunni. but there you have iran who are shiite.

hezbollah i believe is also a shiite militia group. what about hamas and kataib hezbollah? is there that much -- are they also shiite groups? is there any other link between them, the houthis, et cetera, just on that basis? >> well, it's interesting that you point this out. it's an important point. the removal of saddam hussein was a massive gift to iran. because all of a sudden you were going to have a shiite-led government by and large in baghdad, in iraq. and so a lot of these militias inside iraq, absolutely, they are shiite militias that have been fighting against the u.s. presence and that have been associated and sometimes with aspects of elements of the iraqi government, which makes things very complicated. hamas, no. hamas is a sunni organization. what they share is opposition to israel. and as iran kind of established itself as the patron of different groups that stand up to israel, they had this

relationship with hamas. it got a little complicated in the syrian civil war because hamas was not necessarily on the iranian side in that one here. so the reason, what you said is really important, joy, people have to understand, this is what is so dangerous. we're walking into multiple regional conflicts, multiple wars in a sense because there's a war currently taking place between israel and hamas and these other groups. then there's this sectarian tension, the sunni/shiite tension. the reason the groups don't get along with iran. one reason is the sectarian divide. we're stirring a lot of -- there's a lot of hornets' nests being kicked up since october 7th and we're now right in the middle of the swarm of hornets if you will. >> i want to quickly ask you if you can answer me super quick. there is the nbc news reporting that when biden met privately with his national security aides this week, he raised the questions, if he ordered

military action to avenge the death of the three u.s. soldiers in jordan, would that jeopardize the delicate talks over the release of hostages in gaza. he decided to proceed with military measures. because amidst all of this, ben, there is the reporting that the biden administration is attempting to do this three-card monty, this multi-box make it all work regional plan that could involve recognizing the palestinian state, that could involve saudi arabia normalizing with israel. and that could involve the release of all of the hostages and a cessation of violence in gaza. all that is happening at the same time that these proxy groups are hitting u.s. troops and killing three u.s. troops. where does all that then go? >> i think it gets harder, joy. look, qatar has been in the middle of this in terms of dealing with the negotiations, but the reality is, it's a war. and the more you're kicking things up and the more it's escalating, they have people in

iran who do not want hamas to cooperate with a u.s.-led initiative. you have potential violence from hezbollah in lebanon against israel, which might make israel feel less inclined to stop military operations. it makes it harder if there's this level of violence, and i hope that we prioritize diplomacy at some point. >> it's always great to talk with somebody who knows their stuff because i think this stuff gets really complicated and there's so many pieces and so many groups to remember who they are and what they want. so great to have you. thank you, thank you, thank you. and more breaking news coverage ahead. stay with us. j.p. morgan wealth management knows it's easy to get lost in investment research. get help with j.p morgan personal advisors. hey, david! ready to get started?

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joining me now from the white house is nbc news senior white house correspondent kelly o'donnell. what's the latest from the white house in. >> good to be with you. part of what we'll be anticipating now is what comes next. and part of that will include when daylight comes to the region, the battle damage assessment that the u.s. military will do. they are also reviewing video as you know when they carry out operations like this, a lot of the aircraft that the u.s. is operating with has video capability. they are also tracking the targets. they want to be able to assess, have they hit the targets as intended. we were told in a conference call with two senior officials tonight that they had selected the targets mindful of a few key things. command and control, intelligence sites. material directly linked to what

we saw with the attack in jordan involving the drone that killed three american soldiers. and injured a couple dozen others. what they will also do is once they have a better sense of that video, can some of that be made public? that is an expectation we have. once they also have the battle ground level assessment of the success of strikes, did they hit the targets as expected, that can inform what follows on after that. there could also be a different kind of component, a cyber capable attack. officials did not want to talk about that explicitly tonight because they of course want to be careful to not get ahead of whatever the next operations are. so we're in that phase now where this initial set of strikes at seven different locations in iraq, in syria, with the early assessments of believing given the good weather, which was one of the calculations officials made in terms of timing, after they get that assessment, then

we'll see how much further this goes. and over what period of time. we know it will be multi-step. what we don't know is what that duration looks like in a practical sense. as you know, joy, that also gives a window for response in the region. and when we were talking to those officials they said at least at this point in the last couple hours, they had not seen any retaliatory strikes after this u.s. operation. joy. >> kelly o'donnell at the white house, thank you very much. we'll be right back. t their hea. ooh, take this exit. how's the heart? i feel like it's good. —you feel like it's good? how do you know when it's time to check in on your heart? how do you know? let me show you something. it looks like a credit card, but it is the kardiamobile card. that is a medical—grade ekg. want to see how it works? yeah. put both thumbs on there. that is your heart coming from the kardiamobile card. wow! with kardiamobile card, you can take a medical-grade ekg in just 30 seconds, from anywhere.

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joining me now is the executive vice president of the quincy institute and former state department senior adviser, thank you for being here. i want to start with you. i wrote down some notes here. for the u.s., as i see it, there are four sort of needs. things that they have on their to-do list. avenging u.s. troops, which is, you know, the stated purpose for this attack in syria and iraq. avoiding a wider war. there is plenty of nbc news and other reporting saying that biden actually measured that question of whether if he did this he would be able to avoid a wider war and also still continue this hostage negotiation. and that's the third thing, continue this diplomacy that the biden administration has been doing in the region, trying to bring the hostages out. and also trying to find some way of creating normalization between the palestinians and

israel. and i would add a fourth thing and i hope you can respond to all of that. dealing with now the diplomatic dance with iraq, a country that, you know, we once occupied, with iran, and with the gulf states. how does all that get managed? >> i'm going to add in a fifth thing, joy, and that is the domestic political context in which we still have people going on tv who served in the trump administration and bush i administration and two, talking about things like regime change which is what the project in iraq and the project in afghanistan that the obama administration had to unwind, which is where we are right now, with dealing with these diplomatic alliances as a way of protecting american national security interests, america's domestic front by effectively keeping all of these issues overseas. and that's part of this idea of american deterrence. showing that working with allies in qatar, in saudi, and in

israel, what can be done to box in what everyone calls proxy groups but what iran called regional resistance forces. and that gets to the idea of the deterrence really hasn't worked. they haven't stopped these folks from doing any of this. there have been more than 160 attacks on u.s. targets, no loss of u.s. soldiers until now. so to retaliate, to what is a reasonable response, that now seems like the u.s. goal is going to be to try to degrade the capabilities of these proxies. the challenge with the effort to degrade militant actions or these proxy groups is, one, they're not directly controlled by iran. and two, you have this how does any of what the united states is to win get to undermining the mission. what is driving and inciting face folks to want to take weapons from iran and retaliate

or use opportunities to get the united states. and it is a fundamental difference and understanding of health world should work, how the middle east should work. and all, site and idea of that israel itself should not exist in that space. united states should not be supporting it. there is never going to be alignment between that united states and iran audiologists, but one thing that saudi and qatar and others -- and working to bring out a cease-fire in gaza might actually take some of the wind [inaudible]

the choices of all of the other countries have not alleviated the suffering or provided humanitarian relief to the people of iran. so they are really stuck in the first place of all of. this you're also seeing israel is still aligned with a lot of that regime change argument. so our saudis. so our allies aren't necessarily in that same boat that the biden administration is.

a lot of tension of how do you deal with a problem like iran, worth a essentially fund terrorist networks. they are literally taken drones, sending them to russia to then use in ukraine. that's actually what we're seeing. reporting of the drone that killed american soldiers is that same type that gets sent to russia. >> wow. i'm going to give you that last word on this, because all of this happened at the time when behind the scenes apparently the biden administration is trying to do this multifaceted deal that would create normalization and saudi arabia and israel in exchange for a real move toward a palestinian state. with all sorts of other things and between, including a cease- fire which you talk about a moment ago. where does all that go network to what vitamin militarily? >> i think that's part of the problem. we are offering the saudis security -- americans are going

to go and die for the kingdom of saudi arabia. -- the russians -- this is profoundly dangerous involvement, militarily, and that ration and away we have not seen before. this is not public -- the american public would not be in favor of. it is not going to create a palestinian state. there is not a pathway to a palestinian state. we are fine on a pathway to a palestinian state for quite some time without any actualization of it. so for me -- >> it is such a complicated story. it is such a complicated region. it is always great to have your voices. -- and nayyera haq, thank you both very much. we'll be right back. we'll be right back.

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and that knots the reid out, all in with chris hayes starts right now.