the houthis deeply buried weapons storage facilities, missile systems, and launchers, air defense systems, and radar as well. the houthis now, more than 30 attacks on commercial vessels and naval vessels since mid november constitute an international challenge. and so as we had been expecting, obviously from the administration telegraphing to us throughout the week that this would be a multi tiered response to the attack that we saw in jordan last weekend. we now have the second operation, that includes all of these other countries, and in particular the uk, in terms of the actual physical and military power that was used, but in coordination with these other nations, as has been the case in the past ali, we

in fact, just standby for a second as we reset this news right now, it is the top of the

hour, we have a team of nbc -- >> joining us from tel aviv's matt bradley. josh latter man is in london, the chief international correspondent, keir simmons is in erbil iraq. aaron gilchrist staying with us from the white house, erin, i do want you to get as much as you can so feel free if you have to walk away to get that information. keir simmons, we were just talking about this, we have more information, about the breadth of the communication involved in this strike. i want you to give me your take on this. . is this an idea to just spread it, we've got australia, bahrain, canada, denmark, the netherlands, new zealand, and the united states involved in what aaron has just told us we're now 36 targets in 13 locations in yemen. tonight was all about yemen, your take about that, here? >> it sounds like, doesn't it,

a bigger operation, then we've seen with regards to yemen so far. but that collection of countries is the collection of countries looking from memory, i think that's pretty much the collection of countries we saw during the previous strikes, particularly at the beginning when it was the u.s. and the uk, carrying most of the burden, but those other countries joining in in that kind of coalition, if you like. i think it's interesting that this appears to be the second wave, the second tonight. so first, yesterday, you have the strikes here in this region, iraq, and syria. and that was clearly, and signaled as a response to the killing of those three u.s. service men and women at that base in jordan on the border of iraq and syria. now, tonight, you have this wave in yemen. with these countries involved, and i think that's interesting,

because clearly, what's happening tonight is not a direct response to the attack on the base a week ago in jordan. it is a response to, for frankly, you'd have to say, it's a response to the fact that so far, despite a campaign of targeting of the houthis in yemen, it hasn't worked. it hasn't stopped them from targeting commercial shipping in the red sea, and the gulf of aden. and what that tells us, if you want to put the 24 hours together, is that this is a message to those iranian-backed militia, here on this region, but it is also, despite the fact that iran proper, the inside iran international borders has not been targeted, it isn't very clear -- what it is effectively saying is we see you, we see your proxies around this region, and we are going to go through and to target to each of them to send a

collective message from a collection of countries, it was also in a sense a collective message to this collection of proxies that kind of work on behalf of iran, what it's saying to tehran is we are going to punish, we're going to put pressure, we're going to target every one of them. in order to try to get to iran and iran at the very least to make a tactical decision to back off, and signal to them, their proxies, being here in iraq or syria, or cross in yemen to signal to their countries, to back off. now, whether it will work is another question. because as we were saying, ali, just a short while ago, the houthis are already saying, we will meet escalation with escalation. we will not stop. there are many questioning whether this whole thing can be de-escalated until there is a solution to the crisis in gaza. but that, i think, is what we

are seeing now, is a message very firmly to tehran itself. >> yeah, reset for anyone who is just joining us right now, we have learned that the united states has conducted strikes against iranian-backed proxy forces in yemen. these strikes, this is just within the last hour, were conducted along with the united kingdom, with bahrain, australia, canada, denmark, the netherlands, and new zealand. it hit at least 36 targets in 13 locations, more than two dozen aircraft were involved in the strike, some carrying 2000 pound bombs, aside wonder, air to air missiles and precision guided missiles. this comes just hours after u.s. central command announced a separate round of strikes, which targets houthi anti ship cruise missiles, that they say were preparing to launch against ships sailing in the red sea, which is the latest in a series of strikes that the united states is conducted against the houthi forces have

been targeting vessels, commercial and military, sailing in the red sea. now, these strikes against houthi's and in yemen are in addition to the campaign against iranian-backed proxy forces operating in iraq and syria, as keir was just mentioning. their iranian handlers appearing alongside of them, that started on friday. they hit 85 targets, at seven different locations, four of them in syria, three of them in iraq. the biden administration says that friday's strikes were the first in a series of strategic retaliatory strikes against these groups, or among those responsible for more than 160 attacks on u.s. troops in the region since october 7th, and the attack on israel, as keir was pointing out, and i want to bring matt bradley into this, the houthis have responded. they said they will meet escalation with escalation. but matt, keir brings up the point that the motivations of these different iranian-backed proxies are a little bit different. the houthis got involved in this thing, calling for a cease-

fire, in israel. they reiterated tonight, until there is that cease-fire, in israel, they will not stop. and the fact that the u.s. has escalated their attacks on them, they will escalate. your take? >> yeah, i mean, look, keir made a good point. i don't want to expand on that, there's a bunch of familiar characters we've already been seeing. this is operation prosperity guardian. this was started back in december. this is a painstakingly -- ask your mentioned, the uk and the u.s. were carrying the burden for this group of nations, the only one from the middle east is bahrain -- the gulf of aden in the red sea. that's why operation prosperity guardian was put together. this is just the usual suspects. and again, it's the usual suspects in yemen attacking the houthi targets, taking far from the houthi targets. it's also the usual suspects attacking and exchanging fire

with those iranian-backed groups in syria and iraq. we're talking about this latest wave of attacks and reprisals, retribution against those three american servicemen who were killed in northeast jordan. we haven't still seen much of a differentiation, we're still waiting an increase in tempo and character of the attacks that the u.s. is making against these iranian-backed groups, and again in yemen, and in syria and iraq. but we are not seeing a qualitative difference in the style and detect against those groups. we are still seeing the same cast of characters, the same style of reprisals, and none of this is really making all that much of a difference. we've been seeing is actually for the past several months. this is a challenge that the pentagon faces going forward. how to differentiate. we are seeing now, after the death of those three servicemen, from what we saw over the past several months, ever since the october 7th hamas terrorist attacks in israel.

so there isn't much of a differentiation. the train is moving faster than it was before, but it's still staying on the same trucks. so we are not seeing anything really separating what we've seen from the past several months until now. that probably is a deliberate move by the pentagon, and by its allies, trying to say we are ramping up the pressure, but we are not going to step away from the tight choreography that we've been seeing for the past several months. which is the same, by the, way -- that you've been seeing here over the border in israel with hezbollah and lebanon. where we are seeing the same choreography, but nobody is breaking step. everybody is still staying on the same lines, they don't want this to break out into a wider war. that is obviously what's going through the minds of the pentagon and probably here in the ministry of defense here in israel. and in london. but the fact is, there needs to be, if there is to be some sort of ramping up to differentiate the various attacks, there might be some sort of differentiation to what's been

going on for the past four months and what's been going on now with what we've actually seen u.s. deaths in the region. >> matt, keir, josh, aaron, i know you've got a lot of reporting to do. erin, i saw you had to take a call. i want to find out as much as we can find out for our audience right now. i would bring ambassador joe fires teen into the conversation again, i was talking to him when we first got this news. he was a former ambassador to yemen. we've got word from the defense secretary, jerry, that the collective action sends a clear message to the houthis that they will continue to bear further consequences if they do not end their illegal attacks on international shipping and naval vessels. the interesting thing is this is a contagious way shun of last night's attacks. but last night's attacks were justified. if one had to go to congress to justify a tax, it was a price al and retaliation over the death of an american service member, the urn jury of american service members in over 160 attacks. this is about international shipping. this has always been a

different situation, with the houthis. doesn't make a good, but it's different. what do you make of how america deals with or should be dealing with the houthi rebels, who are a non state actor technically, but they're kind of not, right? they're kind of like this new version of non state actors. they have the power of the government. >> absolutely, we need to understand that for the biden administration, this is an extraordinarily complicated situation. it's not like the militia groups in iraq or in syria. in yemen, the administration has three separate priorities that are not mutually exclusive, but they are not consistent either. first of all, of course, is to protect international shipping in the red sea in the -- that's what we've been talking about, that's what your correspondent have been talking about. the second priority of course is not to see the expansion of

the conflict, and this has been, and the president has reiterated this over and over again, he doesn't want this to become a region award. he wants to keep it confined to gaza. so what we are seeing, are primarily defensive moves by the united states, retaliation for the death of our personnel, but mostly defensive. but then the third complication for the administration in yemen is that we are deeply invested in trying to negotiate a resolution of this ten year old civil war that has been going on there since september 2014. in fact, our special envoy is on his way out to the region as we stay to continue u.s. engagement. the saudis are deeply involved, and don't want to see a wholesale u.s. houthi conflict emerge that is going to

threaten their security. so, for the administration, what they are trying to do, is to prevent damage to international shipping, to secure international shipping, but without complicating these other two priorities that they've got. >> ambassador, thank you for your analysis on this. you have a lot of depth of knowledge on something that is relatively new topic to a whole bunch of people right now. we appreciate that. jerry fires teen is a distinguished senior fellow for diplomacy and a director of arabian peninsula affairs programs at the middle east institute and former u.s. ambassador to yemen. joining me now is human raja, an iranian american -- author of multiple bestselling books on iran. he's also an msnbc contributor. robbie cory joins me as well. he's a founding director and senior fellow at the institute for public policy and international affairs at the university -- american university of beirut. also distinguished public policy fellow at american university of beirut.

let me just start with you, because i want to continue that discussion. something different has happened tonight. we've had an attack, we've had 36 targets in 13 different locations, and a joint attack by the united states, united kingdom, australia, canada, denmark, the netherlands, and new zealand. but tonight feels like a continuation of something that's been going on for a while. in terms of objectives, the united states has got a problem with the houthis. they've literally almost shut down international shipping, essentially through the suez canal, calling for a cease-fire in israel. how does america deal with this? this isn't as here simmons and matt bradley point out, your typical non state actor. >> american taken lessons from its own history. i'm old enough to remember the 1960s when i was in college, the vietnam war, and the afghanistan war, and then the uprisings in iraq and the

situation in other parts of the middle east, we have libya, other places, we've had the united states actively fighting or attacking groups like this all over the world, over the last 40, 50 years, and at the end, the united states leaves. because you cannot bring a powerful military and tried to change the actions of a local group that is indigenous to that area or is fighting for what it sees for its land rights and identity, that's a broad description, but i think if you looked at the yemenis, you looked at some of the acts of resistance, in the same way as you should have looked at the way -- i think there would be a whole different analysis. a lot of the analysis i hear in american media is people are playing chess or checkers. you make a move, you contain

somebody, who deter, then you do this. the americans may be playing chess or checkers, but these guys in the middle east, and the vietcong, the taliban before, were playing chicken. a game of chicken where you go to each other, you hide, you come back. and so i think there is a whole different approach to the basic issues here. the united states doesn't have a lot of credibility beyond its ability to use military sanctions. this is why it ends up being the situations, with the exception of the iran nuclear and sanctions. and i repeat, nuclear sanctions, it wasn't just about nuclear sanctions, it is about the sanctions. that was a tremendous example of success through diplomacy. there's been a lot of letters through the u.s., but not very many. so is this really an issue that means a lot of wider strategic reading among american

officials. and moving accordingly to engage these people. all these people ask, they want to be engaged, they're happy to sit and talk to american diplomats, they want the united states not to order them around, not to sanction them, not to attack, them not to mistreat them. and not to treat them as colonial subjects, so if i say that right now, we'll look at other things if you want. >> one of the things colin clark said an hour ago was he said whether you like them or not, iran has done something interesting with its acts of resistance, including gathering up groups who ideologically and from a religious perspective have not been aligned before. we did have some relationship with iran in the ten years leading up to the iran deal, because it took ten years to negotiated, and in the short amount of time, two and a half, three years that it existed, now, we have zero. the moderates and the iranian government are essentially

purged. they are essentially gone. it is harder, the biden administration tried at the beginning of their administration to restart things with the iranians, the iranians weren't particularly interested, and republicans in the united states were not particularly interested. so what do we do now? >> i think what rami says, diplomacy is probably the best option. when it comes to the houthis, let's remember, iran-backed houthis against saudi arabia which was armed by the united states for years. and they tried to bomb the houthis out of existence. they were able to with american intelligence, with american weapons, and with american aircraft. and advisers. so, the houthis, bombing them here and there isn't going to make -- it's not going to make a significant difference. i don't think this is particularly related to the deaths of the three, the unfortunate deaths of the three american soldiers in tower 22. i think if that hadn't happened, if that attack by kataib's beloved on tower 22

wouldn't have happened, we would probably still be bombing houthis because of their attacking ships in the red sea and the gulf of aden. but they have always said, and whenever there's been a pause in fighting, the houthis haven't attacked shipping. so if there is no cease fire, they will continue. they have said they will continue, i understand that some people say that's just an excuse, they just want to protect power, but, again i'll say that bombing them, unless you have continual bombing campaign against the houthis, against the poorest arab country, it's not going to work. really. it makes us feel good, and that we did something. we don't boots on the ground anymore, because as ramy pointed out in afghanistan, vietnam, iraq, that hasn't worked. not in the way we wanted it to work. so now we just bomb. and we spend an inordinate amount of time and money on bombing various places, and at the end of the day, i'm not sure it really helps. what does help is diplomacy. diplomacy with iran, which

could be restarted. i think iran would welcome some form of diplomacy. but not if it is lectured to, not if it's told you have to do this, you have to do that, let's just not the iranian way. inside iran, they are suffering, yes, as you point out, the reformers are gone basically from public life. they have no real influence anymore on the hard line government. but we could still engage in some diplomacy, in true qatar, we do a little bit. we do a little bit as well, but the word diplomacy there is more likely that there is some kind of peaceful coexistence. >> standby for second. i want to go back to the white house. aaron gilchrist is standing by. he's got some news. aaron? >> ali, we've been talking to some of our sources, i understand from a senior administration official that the strikes were seeing in yemen today are not related to the strike that we saw yesterday in iraq and syria. we've been told that the action

today was unrelated to that. and that this strike, these trucks today, are in direct response to actions taken by the iran-backed houthis in yemen. and a part of the continued effort that we've seen over the last weeks and months, really, to degrade the houthis ability to strike these vessels at our transiting the red sea. obviously, as you look at the bigger picture here, there is an effort to reach all of these entities that have been lashing out, if you will. we know that there have been strikes in syria, and iran against facilities against housing troops over the last several months. and as a result of that, the u.s. has had smaller strikes, that we've seen, to try to stop some of these attacks. to say to these smaller militia groups that the united states will not stand for attacks that impact, in several cases hurt, american troops, and then of course, after the attack that

killed the three american soldiers last weekend, we saw the response yesterday that included 85 targets across seven sites in iraq and syria, now, today, we understand that it is separate. the action we are seeing today is separate, and apart from the action we saw yesterday that was the first step in a multi tiered response to the attack in jordan, but today, the attack on these sites in yemen, that are controlled by the houthis, are separate from what we saw yesterday, still a major impact obviously on the houthis capability to execute some of the strikes they've been executing. now, the third time that we've seen the u.s. and a coalition of other countries take action in the last couple of weeks, against the houthis trying to diminish their ability to strike out against commercial vessels and military vessels in the red sea. ali? >> erin, thank you, standby. we're gonna take a quick break, we're going to continue our

coverage of these new attacks in yemen, on houthi forces by coalition of countries including australia, bahrain, canada, denmark, the netherlands, new zealand, and the uk. we'll be right back. . right back. . to duckduckgo on all your devie

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for long-lasting cough and sore throat relief. try new robitussin lozenges with real medicine and find your voice. you know? we really need to work on your people skills. >> joining me now is the representative, don bacon, he's a republican who serves nebraska's second district. he's a member of the house armed services committee, a good friend of our show. congressman, good to see you this evening. thank you for being with us. let me get your take on this. you and i have had a chance to talk about all the things that have been going on in the last few weeks, but specifically, the attacks on commercial shipping, the attacks on u.s. service members, the retaliation strikes last night, and then tonight strikes, which i'm still trying to get my head around whether that is part of our continuing efforts to push back on the houthis, or the new set of attacks that were in retaliation from the death of u.s. service members. i'd like to get your thoughts. >> the houthis, also the shia,

militia forces in iraq, the hezbollah, and syria, they are all allied with iran. they are iranian proxy forces. we can hit the shia militias and iraq and hezbollah, syria, the houthis, but we haven't an impact on them. i think the strikes will have an impact. but i just want to be honest, i think this has zero impact on iran. iran does not care if you hit their proxy forces. they do care if we hit them. we have 170 attacks since 7th of october from these iranian proxy forces. three americans were killed. who's been escalating here? it's iran. i believe we're going to go after the head of the state, which is iran, if you want the snake to stop biting us. and i think we've got to do it smartly, but if we do not go after iran, i think deterrence is not out of there. they're going to take advantage of what they think is weakness with our administration. that's how i see it.

>> a lot of people have been on the air today saying that. that iran has got an arms length to this, or at least a claim to have, and you could hit hezbollah, and the houthis as much as you want. i guess, my question for you is what is targeting around look like? do you mean bombing iran? >> yes. but you've got to do it smartly. i did 30 years in the air force, i've been involved in planning operations. one of them was on active duty focused on iran. they are smart targets that we could do that have very low risk, at least in a mission state, there may be risk after the mission. like you say, retaliate with the ballistic missiles. i would target their oil terminals. they're very dependent on oil exports. we could easily target their oil export production capabilities, or their navy. but we've got to make iran hurt. their training, their arming, their funding, these proxy groups, are attacking us, and ultimately, these groups are doing it on behalf of iran.

iran has to pay for it. >> let me ask you this though, we have troops on the ground, we don't have troops on the ground in a lot of places. we are actively involved in a couple of wars around the world. we've all got an eye on what china's up to. we all have an eye on what north korea's up to. you must know, from your constituents, americans have some sense of fatigue about this. getting involved directly with iran is a very different deal than dealing with their proxies. >> yes, but ultimately, iran is behind the killing of three of our soldiers. i believe most of our citizens think that iran should be held accountable for that. if we do nothing to iran, they're going to perceive weakness, they're going to continue to strike americans, they want to take more -- we didn't attack iran to begin with. it's their forces attacking thus. i think we have to respond, and we can do it the way that hurts, but the consequence is

unknown. it's possible they could strike back with ballistic missiles. but who should fear the other the most? i think iran should fear america the most. but the president has to be able to communicate that through his actions by belief. >> let me ask you this, because you are somebody who spent 30 years in the air force. you are a -- general. i think you would agree that before you use force, you've got to try everything possible. what's your sense of the fact that we were edging towards the iran nuclear deal, diplomatic relations with iran? that kind of stuff helps more than fighter jets due. >> you know, debatable point, but i see your side of the argument there. i would say, conversely, there was a date where iran could build its nuclear enterprise in that agreement. i think that was the biggest concern we have, many of us on our side of the aisle, or israelis for that matter, it legitimized a nuclear program for a run. it would also point out the

money that we gave iran fueled terrorism in the entire region. iran is not just a nuclear want to be for nuclear weapons. they're the world's largest export or two. they've about 1000 ballistic missiles. i mean, iraq alone, and this is how i -- 609 americans were killed by shia militias in iraq during the iraq war for those two decades. that's a heavy price that america has made by iranian irgc, the organization that is behind all of those. i don't think you can trust iran. i think they hate us. i think they want to wipe israel off the map. i don't believe until you've got a different regime, you have leaders in iran that we can negotiate and believe them. they want us done, ali, that's the bottom line. >> look, i always appreciate talking to you, because you are prepared to bring debatable points and a bit. it back when we had the iran deal, there were moderates in

the government. there are virtually none now. i think it's harder to have -- you talk about wiping them off the map, we had people, and there are people in iran that don't want constant war, they've got a lousy economy. they would like to have peace. when i was there when the deal was being negotiated, everybody just wanted -- they want to trade with america. every iranian has relatives in america. virtually like america quite a bit. they didn't want this war. but our pulling out of that deal in 2019 hardened their government. the moderates are gone. there's nobody to actually talk to. i agree with your point, it would be great to have an government in iran that we can deal with, but now they are more entrenched than they were before. >> you know, i'm not so sure just how moderate any of those folks were. that's just my view. i remember ronald raegan trying to reach out to moderate democrats in the 80s, and we know how that turned out. i'm convinced that that regime, with the ayatollah, they think we are the great state, israel's great saint number two, or the other way around. i really believe that's what

they believe. this is how they treat us. i've had friends killed by iran. the co-bartow or's today, i ran into somebody that was there. i had a good friend killed at the colbert towers in 1996. in iranian terrorist group that attacked in saudi arabia, look at the beirut -- i could just go on and on. iran has been targeting us and they've been targeting us in our own country. we have caught their agents trying to assassinate, i think was the saudi ambassador, for example. these guys are very, i would say, malevolent. they are our enemy. they see us as their enemy. i believe it. >> don bacon, good to see you, thank you for joining us this evening. republican writes intuitive, don bacon of nebraska. we've got more continuing coverage of the u.s. air strikes in the middle east after the break. air strikes in the middle east after the break. migraine attacks, all in one. don't take if allergic to nurtec. allergic reactions can occur, even days after using. most common side effects were nausea, indigestion, and stomach pain.

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matt you heard my conversation with congressman bacon, republican of nevada. your thoughts? >> i think that the congressman made some very good points. i think we need to ask him, and challenge whether or not we are actually seeing that connective tissue between these different groups. and the iranian regime. yes, we know that these groups benefit from iranian largest, but as i mentioned before, earlier in the program, we do

know that they get training, they get funding. in some ways, yes, they are directly responsible. but it really is not necessarily proven that they are doing iran's bidding in every single maneuver that they do. so that's something that when we talk about taking retribution against the iranian regime, we need to balance the fact that we are talking about expanding this into a region wide war. the iranians have enormous capabilities and they have claws throughout the region. specifically, hezbollah, which is set right on the border of israel, right here, which is one of the -- obviously america's primary ally in the middle east. that would be a major escalation, one that would drag israel into the war, which would bring america into the war in a way that i think a lot of people would find to be very uncomfortable. we are already in a position with the u.s. part naval assets off the coast of israel, the mediterranean sea, the red sea, as a deterrence, and these groups from taking shots against international shipping.

the and against u.s. naval assets. but when we talk about what's happening just now, again, if you look at the list of countries that were part of the attacks against the houthis, what if you lay them across what was the operation that was started back in december, to deter the houthis from taking shots against international shipping, it is essentially the same list of countries. so as i said before, we are not necessarily talking about a qualitative escalation. but one that is a question of degrees. we are increasing the tone and the tempo of the escalating -- of the attacks against the houthis. and also against those iran- backed groups in syria and iraq. but we haven't really deviated from the careful choreography that was set ever so long ago. back in october 7th when the hamas militant group, based in the gaza strip, attacked israel, killed 1200 israelis, and took so many hundreds of hostages.

we haven't necessarily seen a qualitative shift in the fighting, even though we've now seen three american deaths at the hands of iran-backed groups in jordan. so, we have seen an escalation, but it has been so careful, that we haven't really seen something that could necessarily differentiate between what's going on in the last 24 hours, from what's been going on in the past four months. that seems to be a very deliberate maneuver by the biden administration, not to really separate this from what has been going on already. >> i think this is a very astute point, dan, that math brings up. and matt has had a lot of experience with a number of these groups. maybe your language is not accurate enough, we sometimes say iranian-backed, we sometimes say pro iranian, sometimes we say iranian proxies. but in fact, not everybody, not each of these groups fits as neatly into that box. hezbollah is a strong fighting force on its own. certainly helps with getting training and weaponry from iran and other places. same with the houthis.

some of their sophisticated military equipment is not homegrown. is not made it home. but it's not clear that they got on a phone and take a direction from iran. how do we make that distinction? because representative bacon speaks on behalf of a lot of americans, and a lot of republicans who think that we should take this fight right to iran. >> yeah, ali, several points here. right? first of all, the reason why iran has these proxies is exactly to create the ambiguity we are talking about right now. that's why it's so useful for them, and that's why they've been using proxies for decades. no u.s. president has managed successfully to force iran to rollback those proxies. whether it's hezbollah and lebanon, hamas, in gaza, the houthis now in yemen, and these militias in iraq. so we've seen hawkish policies, we've seen more moderate approaches, trying diplomacy,

but the iranian regime's stubbornly focused on these proxies. because they accomplish all sorts of strategic interest for them. and create all sorts of problems for their adversaries that's what we are seeing right now. i don't think we should overstate the independence of these groups in the end. because they will run out of oxygen without the money, and the weapons, and the training bigot from iran and the revolutionary guard. when the other, i think, answer to what the congressman is saying, is the administration would probably say, hold on, instead of escalating and directly attacking iran, with they're hoping is that by defusing the conflict between israel and hamas, somehow negotiating a cease-fire deal there, which there are talks underway, and getting hostages released that that would lower the temperature, defuse the situation, and hopefully, scale back this crisis. but those proxies are a thorn

in the side of the u.s. and israel, and other arab governments. there is no easy solution. i think one other thing, the trump administration did not carry out military strikes inside iran either. for the same reasons. there has not been a u.s. military operation anytime since jimmy carter was president. that was a failed, botched rescue attempt to get american hostages out of iran. so it's important to keep that in mind. >> in the old building that used to be the american embassy in tehran, is the wreckage of an american helicopter that has been placed there and is not moving. iran reminds its people on a daily basis that the last time america tried to get into iran, it was in fact a spectacular failure. matt bradley, dan brings up this point, we've been talking about this for the last couple of hours, and that is the houthis are not being punished for killing three american soldiers. they are being punished for

targeting commercial and some military shipping through the red sea. but the commercial shipping is the important part. it goes through the suez canal, so to cut prices off it's going to cause inflation. all those kinds of things. but in the end, they've said that they're doing those on behalf of the palestinian people in gaza, and they would like a cease-fire. not to say america should be held to the end of a gun by the houthis, but there is an argument that the last time there was a cease fire, nobody was shooting anybody in the middle east for five or six days. >> yeah, that's the question. but the fact is, yes, you mentioned, there's a different imperative. here it's not about those three american soldiers that were killed in jordan. this is operation prosperity go -- guardian. that was a u.s. -- the gulf of aden, the red sea. it's not exactly the same cast of characters, we are looking at the people, the countries that signed on to that statement talking about the most recent attacks against the houthis, it's almost identical

to the list of nations signed on to operation prosperity guardian, which by the way, as i mentioned before, the normal -- every one of those countries in that basin around the gulf of -- really has a vested interest in protecting shipping from the region. it's the same thing, it's about shipping. it's not about retribution for those three americans who were killed in jordan. so when we're talking about this and seeing this as part of a continuum of attacks, the same season of retribution that the biden administration described earlier, weeks and weeks of attacks, that is not this. this is a different thing. it's part of a different issue involving a much broader coalition. >> so dan, if one had to consider ways to de-escalate, which the biden administration seems to prefer, in every statement they point out, they talk about the fact they're not seeking war, not seeking a broader war, not seeking a

bigger war. some sort of a deal between the israelis and hamas would probably be helpful. the united states has put its back into that in the last couple weeks. along with mossad, along with the egyptian intelligence. along with the qatari prime minister. they've got something that looks like the lose barebones of a deal that neither israel or hamas has outright rejected yet. -- and been threatened in the last 24 hours by these retell the tory attacks. >> absolutely. i think so much is riding on those negotiations. and obviously, they are not at the end. they've made progress, they hammered out this general framework, which would involve a certain number of days, starting at six weeks. different stages where both sides do what they've promised

to do. now israel signed off on it as we and others have reported, at least this framework, and now everyone at the ball is in hamas's court to see if they will agree to this framework, and then that would have to be fleshed out. so yes, so much is riding on that, because if that collapses or unravels or gets stuck, then we are left with this escalatory, very dangerous precarious situation. gets more dangerous by the day. the problem with these kinds of conflicts is even when the u.s. believes it is acting in a calibrated, limited way, or even when iran somehow believes that what they are doing with their proxies is calibrated, it doesn't mean the other side interprets it in the way you want or expect. so this is why some are comparing this to the beginning of world war i. i hope that's incorrect. but there are some echoes of that war. you have two sides actually that don't want to go to war, but you might find yourself in

that situation. >> entirely, as i always think about that. a guy shot a guy on a street corner in siravo, we ended up in a world war because there's so much dry kindling in the world that one little match can set off something very serious. guys, your analysis is invaluable. appreciate. it deangelis, -- matt bradley, nbc news foreign correspondent. he's joining us from tel aviv. we will stay close to these guys, more of our continuing coverage of the u.s. air strikes in the middle east after the break. strikes in the middle east after the break. not you. you! your business bank account with quickbooks money now earns 5% apy. (♪♪) that's how you business differently. intuit quickbooks.

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senior diplomatic correspondent for huffington post, and founder of -- feed political magazine, and author of cause more politics substack. good to see you both, friends. elise, we are having a very involved and important discussion here about a tinderbox of a world, a microcosm in the middle east, america saying it does not wish to escalate or spread this war,

but involved in military strikes and dan de luce just made this point. stuff can go wrong. at any moment. it's all centering still around what's going on in israel and gaza. your sense of how this plays out? >> i think that is exactly right. i think one of the problems, from the u.s., is ali, you had 160 attacks since october 7th. since that war. and the u.s. may launched half a dozen, maybe seven attacks. obviously, it wasn't deterring iran, and its proxies, from going after it, so now, now that americans have actually been killed, they are saying this is retribution. any of those attacks could have killed u.s. servicemen. and what a lot of analysts and military experts are saying is, sometimes you have to escalate to de-escalate. what the u.s. wants to do right now is have iran and its proxies have a conversation among themselves, and say, do we really want to do that? what if the u.s. strikes back?

a couple months ago, they would have laughed, now they are not laughing so much anymore. so, i think this was a very decisive response, it will continue to be. but it's not just about a message. they want to defang of these groups. they want to destroy every missile site, every weapons depot, every -- i think they're going to go after more irgc places outside of iran, and not only send a message, don't mess with us, but actually take their capacity to mess with you, out of the equation. >> i guess the problem is that it's walkable. the amazing thing is after four months of this israel gaza war, every couple of days, you still see that iron dome intercepted something coming from gaza. the fact that there's some rockets coming from gaza still. hezbollah has, i think, 20 times the rockets that hamas has, the houthis are a bit of a surprise to everybody. we know they've been on the scene for ten years, but

they've got more sophisticated weaponry. some of the weaponry they're using on these -- to take out the ships, is something else. this is a big effort. to ilyse's point, is this what america wants to do? takeout capability of iran allied groups, it could be years. >> it'll be years, ali, and i think it's important to remember, it's not just capability, it's also the public emotion that these folks are able to attack. so some of the smartest analysts in yemen are saying yes, the u.s. has seen much larger than houthi capacity, hitting houthi depots, missiles, i'm sure that will reduce the military capability. but at the same time, are you actually empowering them politically? are you strengthening their hold on 80% of yemen's population? are you making it easier for iran and its proxies to continue this? you mentioned the hezbollah arsenal. that hasn't even come into the equation. >> correct. >> we are only seeing attacks from houthi and hamas. they have a lot more they can go back on.

again, the irgc hasn't even come into that. so the risk of escalation relative to the u.s. ability to -- i think it's not quite what the biden administration wanted to be. >> at least, i want to go back to the conversation we've been having for a few days. about this deal. that the u.s. and massaged and the qataris and the egyptians sort of worked out a hostage deal, a short cessation in fighting, a possible three-part release of hostages. in then maybe even a rebuilding of gaza, maybe even a piece, and you are a state department expert, the floating of the idea that the iron -- the united states may recognize a state of palestine. until 24 hours ago, that looked somewhat optimistic and really interesting. i don't know whether the last 24 hours has negatively affected that. but how much credence do you give to the possibility of that deal?

never israel know -- more hamas have discounted it out of hand yet. >> i think the fact we're not healing a lot about it is that it still in train, still working. you're not hearing anybody like that. instead, they are still working on it. ali, i know that they are all related, but what the u.s. has done right now is given the houthis as our guest was saying, the opportunity to use this crisis with gaza, this war in gaza, to use it for their own personal power. the u.s. took the houthis off the terrorism list after they were going after the saudis, going after the uae. i think in terms of letting other groups use this as an opportunity to say the u.s. isn't doing enough for gaza, as if the u.s. deserves to be hit, the u.s. does need to do more to get a cease-fire going, and to resolve this crisis, and trying to get those hostages out, keep pushing for a deal. i think it this point we've opened up a can of worms with these proxies, and even if

there is a deal, these groups might tamp it down, but they're not going to completely eliminate the strikes against the u.s., and so i think the u.s. really doesn't -- as we're saying, it doesn't need to give them more political leverage, but, be just needs to not play whack-a-mole, but give a decisive blow to them, so they can focus more on the diplomacy, so they can focus more on a two-state solution, which is really the root of all of these crises in the region. it will also, by the way, lessen iran's leverage. because they continue to use the palestinian cause as one of the causes, even though they don't really do anything for the palestinians. so the end of the day, yes, you're ready to resolve that issue but it isn't going to eliminate the need for the u.s. to go after these groups. i want to disagree, we've got a statement from u.s. central command, in which it reads

these strikes, talking about the strikes tonight, are intended to degrade houthi capabilities used to continue there until -- unlawful attacks on u.s. and uk ships, as well as international commercial shipping in the red sea, the -- straight, and the gulf of aiden. these strikes are separate and distinct from the multinational freedom of navigation actions performed under operation prosperity guardian. a lot of detail in there. and probably it isn't all that relevant to our viewers. in other, words they are saying that there are different types of, tax there are different brands or different names that they are giving to the attacks, and tonight's attacks on the houthis are not actually part of the same attacks last night. last night's attacks were meant to be retaliatory for the death of those american soldiers, this is still about commercial shipping. again, i -- you and i have had this conversation a few times, i am a little fascinated the houthi capabilities to do this. clearly, that is the iranian connection, because there is, i mean yemen is a humanitarian

catastrophe. there is nowhere that they would have been able to develop this weaponry, or acquired if not for the iranians. >> well, i would love to take you back to middle east mentioned with the saudis in the uae, because i think that really is a critical element of this. the people who are most at risk for the tinderbox that you are talking about earlier, it is the saudis, who -- it is the uae. and these are global hubs of business and trade. if you think global trade is being disruptive now, if the houthis get into something with those gulf states, we are at a whole different level. and that is why the u.s. can see, as -- all of these are separate -- . some concern in all of that action is, these arab states are not joining the u.s. in this response, right. they clearly see this as irresponsible, they don't see a strategy here. bahrain, as -- mentioned, is the only arab countries to join the. jordan -- specifically said that -- on strikes. we will let you know. jordan is one of the closest u.s. allies, so i think the biden administration is