a gaza slaughter. how many democrats are in the position -- is there a rough count, of how many nos there are in the caucus? >> what i will say is that the grassroots activism around a bilateral cease-fire is working. there are four more members and perhaps maybe publicly visible that have a lot of trepidation around voting for an aid package that contains, a, no humanitarian aid, and be, i think we are crossing a rubicon on unconditional aid to the israeli government. we have laws on the books that prevent u.s. aid from funding grossed two men rights violations and we are seeing a level of depravity and gaza that is becoming morally untenable to support. >> congresswoman cortez, thank you very much, that is all in on this wednesday night. alex wagner tonight starts right now. good evening alex.

>> good evening, my friend. we have a big news making interview tonight. we will get right into it. today, i saw down with former secretary of state presidential candidate hillary clinton and we covered a lot of ground. we talked about conflicts overseas in the middle east and in ukraine. we talked about donald trump's legal jeopardy and the utter chaos and the republican party. chaos that, by the way, it's in full display tonight. with the senate now scrambling to find a path forward after republicans killed their own bipartisan border legislation in order to appease donald trump. for weeks, republicans have insisted that they would not pass aid for israel in taiwan, as well as urgently needed funding for ukraine unless democrats agreed to have new border policies. just to put this all into perspective for, ukraine is facing some of its biggest challenges since this war began. russia has ramped up missile strikes across the country, as ukraine has been forced to

ration munitions. ukrainian armies are fighting fatigue, and morale issues among its ranking file, and in the meantime, republicans are playing politics. they are playing politics with the vital resources that ukrainians to defend its democracy from invaders. democrats agreed to work with republicans and to craft a bipartisan bill to increase border security measures in exchange for that aid. but then, donald trump came out against the deal. he did not want to hand president biden a victory on trump's favorite campaign issue, which is drumming up fear about what is happening at the border. today, republicans voted to kill their own bill in the senate. the final vote was 49 to 50 with all but four republicans voting against it. after that, just stunning defeat, democratic leader, chuck schumer, put a second bill on the floor. it strips of the border stuff and just funds aid to israel and ukraine and taiwan which it's what the democrats wanted

in the very first place. 58 senators voted today to advance that bill. that is just shy of the 60 votes that they are going to need for final passage. and now senate leaders have until the end of the day tomorrow to convince two more republicans to support this bill before the senate leaves town for two weeks. even if they do manage to convince those two senators that aid bill is going to face an uphill battle and the republican-controlled house. ukraine is in desperate need of support, but republicans are not willing to help ukraine because they are terrified of donald trump's retribution. i asked former secretary of state, hillary clinton, about all of that today. >> we are here because it is a panel on the future, it is a day of events related to the future of ukraine, and i have got to ask you, watching this sort of spectacle unfold in washington around this basic

idea of ukraine funding, what is your reaction to what the republican party has done on this issue, or not done? >> you know, it is fascinating, alex, because i think that a very small minority of the republican party has hijacked the party when it comes to a number of things. like border security, and aid for ukraine. i actually think that a majority of republicans in both houses, if given the chance, would vote for both border security and ukraine funding. it doesn't appear that they will get a chance to vote on border funding because it is not clear that it will pass the culture requirement, but i think that they will get a chance to vote on ukraine funding along with israeli funding. i expect that to pass both houses. >> you are optimistic? >> i am. about those two things. i think stripping of the border security, the defeat in the house of the israeli only sets

up a option for the senate to pass both ukraine and israeli aid, and then senate to the house. >> i have got to think, though, if you are volodymyr zelenskyy, and this is a matter of life and death, and you are watching a circus unfold do you think that it changes, there are so many reasons why the globe has thought differently of america in different years but a moment like that, where it is so clear that they are engaging in the most based partisan theatrics over such an incredible, an incredibly critical issue with ukraine, do you think that forever changes the relationship america has with that part of the world? >> no. i think it raises questions, and those are understandable because watching this profoundly dysfunctional republican party in the congress, unable to make up its own mind about what it

believes, what it will vote for, in part because there are enthralled to trump which is just so hard to understand, it does of course raise questions. but i do think that there is still a majority and both houses to support aid for ukraine and, of course, president biden is fully on board. at the end of the day, i am hoping that there will be a positive vote in the congress, which will send a clear message, not just ukrainians, europeans, others around the world, but to our own country. why would we reward such, not just dysfunctional behavior, but it is so unserious. it is -- i saw a columnist siena de used silly. it is profoundly silly to watch this circus and congrats, were donald trump is the puppeteer. i was in the senate for eight

years, and i know some of the people that are still there. i know that they don't believe this. and why they continue to give into him, i don't understand. i think the border security would have been a very good time to stand up to trump and say you've been talking about it. we are delivering for you, mister president, and go from there. we will see what happens next. >> were you surprised by their capitulation to trump's win is? >> i am surprised. it was a very serious effort. my publicans have done this before when i was in the senate we overwhelmingly passed an immigration reform in addition to security other provisions as well. we passed overwhelmingly in the senate. then, president george w. bush said that he would sign it and the republican leadership in the house would never bring it up for a vote. so i have said for years that they would rather have a problem on the border than a solution. but i thought that this time, given the seriousness of the

negotiation, the fact that it was only about security, that frankly the democrats gave up a lot to support the republican request for greater security, which i favored, actually. and then at the last minute, to have donald trump tell people who are independently elected in their states, and have an obligation to represent their constituents and their conscience, that they had to stop trying to solve the problem and go back to letting it faster for his own political purposes, it was pretty shocking to me. >> and to do so so explicitly? >> it wasn't even a surprise. >> trump is telling us that we can do it, it is not good for him in an election, so we will not do it. >> there were a few profiles in courage for a little while, people standing up and saying what are you talking about? we want to solve this problem. that is why we are sent to washington. but then they capitulated, and honestly, it shows a really big

danger that trump poses where it doesn't matter whether you have a bipartisan agreement to solve a problem or not. if he wants it for political purposes, then he tries to and that is what authoritarians do. that is yet another reason why we cannot let him anywhere near the white house again. >> that is former secretary of state hillary clinton weighing on the existential threat that trump poses to the legislative process among other things. joining me now is the chief correspondent, and host of velshi on the weekends. i should note that ali has reported extensively from ukraine and even moderated a panel in ukraine which is where i was speaking with secretary clinton. and there you are that very well timed panel, ali. i want to get to ukraine in a second. but for the last couple of days we have border negotiations, they were emblematic of the stranglehold that donald trump has on the party.

it seems to me there is a step further. ukraine could also be even more of a test given what has passed with the border billet but the degree to which donald trump has destroyed this party and everything that it once stood for. >> at least the border issue, well everybody should've wanted to fix it, nobody actually has gotten it right for a long time. republican priorities are different from -- that is the wild part. the support for funding ukraine prior to this war as an ally that was defending itself against an adversary was almost completed in both houses of congress. so the idea that, as hillary clinton said to you, people are voting against their own interest if they were just allowed to vote, they would probably support ukraine. but they are not because you cannot get out of this minefield that donald trump is planted. doing the right thing is not the right thing. remember, on the border, donald trump just wants an issue. on ukraine, he's got other interests. >> and makes it even more nefarious. it is like you sleep sort of

well at night saying eventually of trump's president we will deal with the border. but ukrainian see money now. >> ukraine will go the wrong way. >> this is a victory for putin. >> all putin east to do is hold out for another few months. it is a stalemate on the ground, not stalemate elsewhere. ukraine made gains, they push the russians to the east of the black sea, the russians do not have air superiority the way that they did. a number of drones and missiles hit kyiv, we know at least four people are dead in the last 24 hours. but they are pushing back. the bad news is that we are two years into this court. the good news is that two years and ukraine is still around. because they're speculation that ukraine wouldn't last a week. >> the fact of the matter is each week is a gift to the ukrainians. >> this could go away anytime. if you are vladimir putin, you just want donald trump to come in and you will do what you need to do if you have to interfere in the election to have that happen. that is what the differences here. these members of congress who are playing whack-a-mole and

chicken with what they think donald trump wants, you could lose in the process and possibly other countries around it. >> it is not just donald trump who is parroting putin's lines. tucker carlson, who is a bandleader for the faction of republicans in these bills, was in moscow interviewing vladimir putin. i asked secretary clinton about that journalistic endeavor and this is what she had to say. >> tucker carlson is in moscow right now interviewing vladimir putin. the first american journalist to interview putin since the war in ukraine. what does not tell you about tucker carlson and right-wing media and also vladimir putin? >> it shows me what i think we all know. he's what is called a useful idiot. if you actually read translations of what is being said on russian media, they make fun of him. he's like a puppy dog. you know, somehow, after having been fired from so many outlets

and the united states, he -- i wouldn't be surprised if he emerges with a contract with the russian outlet because he is a useful idiot. he says things that are not true, he perez what amir putin's pack of lies about ukraine, so i do not see why putin wouldn't give him an interview. because through him, he can continue to lie about what is objectives are in ukraine, and what he expects to see happen. it is really quite sad that not just somebody like tucker carlson who has, as i said, been fired so many times because he seems unable to correlate his reporting with the truth, but also because it is a sign that there are people in this country right now who are like a fifth column from vladimir putin. why? i don't know. why are certain republicans

throwing their lot in? why are other americans basically believing putin? why did trump believe putin more than our 11 intelligence agencies? >> i don't know, do you have a working theory on that? >> i do have a working theory. but it is more than just the political partisan advantage. there is a yearning for leaders who can kill and imprisoned their opponents, destroy the press, lead a life that is one of impunity and bound by any laws. there is a yearning among certain people in our country for that kind of leadership. and i find that absolutely gobsmacked-ing in terrifying. >> i find gob smacking and terrifying as well. we talk about disinformation on social media. disinformation from people like tucker carlson? the platform that he has and

the fact that he is a willing participant to it. >> and he has been for a while so he's been a big fan of victor in hungary. he speaks of these events here and tucker carlson goes and does a show from hungary. he talked before the war came out about how we shouldn't be in bed with ukraine because he called it a corrupt little country. ukraine had a corruption problem and there is no question, they will have to fix not because it will be under the watchful eye of the rest of the world. it is not a reason to get invaded by russia. so, the things that tucker said is not american journalists will not hold volodymyr zelenskyy to account. like, i don't know what you are talking about, man. we covered that war, there are things that ukrainians do that are not fantastic. and we discussed it with them at all times. but they're a country that has been invaded by another country. >> and it fundamentally believes in democracy in a way that vladimir putin who has

thrown people in jail -- >> they struggled to find their democratic footing and they really struggled. and they are trying, and trying, and trying, that is what the larger point is. and the same way that in america, if someone doesn't like all of joe biden's policies, you have to look at for this election, is it a choice between who is upholding democracy and who is not. that is your issue in russia and ukraine. who's upholding democracy and who is not. tucker carlson is going to be the journalist none of us are. >> the journalist -- you are a journalist without quotes, my friend. thank you for joining me and thank you for holding high the lamp shining a light on what is happening over on ukraine both on air and in columbia university. it is great to see you, ali velshi. we have a lot more of my exclusive interview with hillary clinton coming up, including her thoughts on what the supreme court might do regarding both donald trump's presidential immunity claims and whether he's actually eligible to run for president. stay with us. with us.

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jack smith and his federal election interference case against trump can move forward. i asked former secretary of state, former presidential candidate, hillary clinton what she thinks is going to happen next. >> are you optimistic about what the supreme court does next? >> i think on this particular issue, if i were the supreme court, i wouldn't want to wait and to this. it is such a good opinion that i would deny, and let the opinion stand. it is in line with previous opinions. you know, when trump made the argument about this future president, well, he is the only one who has been in this position. and he is the only one who has claimed such broad blanket immunity. and we know what his real thoughts are. remember, i could shoot somebody on fifth avenue, my supporters wouldn't care. he thinks that he should be above the law. that he should be able to manipulate the law. the last time that i checked,

despite trump and his supporters efforts to undermine this, we were a nation based on the rule of law, not on the rule of individual men the way that trump keeps trying to claim. >> as someone who ran for the presidency and won the popular vote, can you even wrap your head around arguing in court that you should be able to assassinate your political enemies using s.e.a.l. team six? how did that argument land with you? >> he says so many outrageous things that i think a lot of people have stopped listening and they shouldn't. they should pay very careful attention to what trump says. because if they do, they can see the linkage between what he says and what he tries to do, in his first term on many okay shuns, he was rained in and even stopped by the people around him because there were people who he put into an important position who had

served in government under pyro publican presidents who understood the rule of law, who understood the constitutional system, and so much more. they were able to stop him. he will now fill those positions if ever given a chance, which i hope never happens, with people who are totally members of his cold, and i do not say that lightly, because when i look at people who i know were horrified by january 6th, who were republicans in the house and the senate, who have come around to dismissing it, and discounting the horror that they themselves felt as they put themselves under desks as they ran down hallways, as they tried to escape the mob coming at them, there is something about trump's hold on the republican party that is frightening. >> somehow, the fact that trump was resoundingly rejected by the federal appeals court has not dimmed trump's enthusiasm

for using that presidential immunity defense. today, we got the news trump is also trying to argue he has presidential immunity and the mar-a-lago classified documents case, trump's lawyers told the court today that they are going to file motions attempting to toss that case out for a whole litany of reasons, one among them was yet again, presidential immunity. so how did the supreme court respond? it will matter well beyond the d.c. election interference case. although there is one place that it won't go. the state of georgia. found in fulton county where d.a. fani willis's prosecuting trump for election conspiracy, trump is also trying to claim presidential immunity. but in the appeals court ruling yesterday and a footnote, the court made clear that its ruling does not apply to state level prosecutions. that means the appeals court decision would not apply to trump's case in georgia. could his presidential immunity defense fly in a different state? we are going to get some expert

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>> tomorrow morning, the supreme court will hear oral arguments as to whether donald trump's role in the january 6th insurrection disqualifies him from running from president. this all began when colorado's

highest court ruled to exclude trump from that state's primary ballot, because we violated the anti insurrection provision, section three, of the 14th amendment. i spoke to former presidential candidate, hillary clinton, about how she thinks that the court will handle such a case. >> the supreme court is taking out the 14th amendment question tomorrow. did trump foment an insurrection, should he be taken off of the ballot? let's table the first for that. the idea of effectively defeating trump by getting him off the ballot, do you think that that is a good endeavor or not? >> i've tried to educate myself on this because it is clear that the -- is not a section of the 14th amendment, section three that a lot of us paid attention to in the past. >> haven't had to, think goodness. but there is a very strong argument, remember, this argument did not come from liberals. it didn't come from people who already are against trump at

all. it came from conservative original lists, as they like to call themselves. law professors, lawyers, who basically said if you read section three of the 14th amendment, it is pretty clear that he should not be permitted to run for president. i think the argument is very strongly on their side. now, what is the remedy? is the remedy for the supreme court to say no, he can't be on the ballot? or is the remedy for the court to say this very well can apply constitutionally but it is up to the states to make the determination? because states in our federalist system actually run elections. and i think that that might be where the court ends up. maybe they could get to the point of saying no, section 3 doesn't apply, you have to be convicted first, they could come up with something out for trump. if they want to be true to their original interpretation, then i think that they have to

find that section three applies to people who foment and participate in insurrections. but the remedy lies in these states. that would be a fair way of pursuing this. >> do you worry if it is left up to the states, you basically get trump taken off of the ballot in blue states and staying on the ballot in red states? >> that is where our federal system very well may lead to. i think it would be better if he were just roundly defeated. but on the other end, i also don't think it is wise to ignore the constitution. so, it is a very difficult problem that he has created for the courts, and for states and they are in a dilemma. if you ignore the constitution and basically say, we are not paying attention to it, or if you try to write it away and say it doesn't apply, even though i think most historians, as well as legal experts say it does, you are also doing damage.

that is why i say that maybe they will come up with this approach, where the states ran election side is going to be up to the states. i think a lot of states will be very reluctant to take him off of the ballot. i think that would be a political firestorm, in a lot of states. on the other hand, some will. >> i wonder, i think about the 2016 election, and we are more deeply divided than even then. and i think about the 2020 election, where half of the republican party, three quarters of the republican party depending on the polling, it doesn't believe that joe biden won. what happens, if you don't even have donald trump on the ballot, and one part of the country elect joe biden the other part of the country elects donald trump? >> look at why we are in this mess. we are in this mess because we have a man who cares nothing about our constitution, he cares nothing about our country, he cares nothing about real national security, all he cares about is himself. that is all he cares about.

his own power, his own prestige, his own standing. and how do you say, wait a minute, this is not permitted within our system? as i said, i would be perfectly satisfied if we beat him both in the popular vote, and the electoral college, as joe biden did so convincingly in 2020. but, we also have laws. and that is, of course, what courts are for. they have to interpret those laws. >> joining me now is chuck rosenberg and former u.s. attorney and senior fbi official, kristy greenberg, former criminal division deputy chief. thank you for being here, guys. chuck, let me start with you in terms of the scenario that secretary clinton paints there. the idea the supreme court might return this decision to the states. how realistic do you think that is coming from the high court? >> i have heard a lot of smart people say a lot of different things about what might happen. i would be lying to you if i told you that i knew.

but secretary clinton's right. in the meeting, the elections are the province of the states. when polls open, when polls close, when mail-in ballots are due, all of those sorts of things, is it possible that the supreme court returns this to the states? i think so. it strikes me that it would be chaotic. >> completely chaotic, wouldn't it be? because what it is not just be up to, depending on what the process for getting a name on the ballot, the secretaries of state or the voters to sue the secretaries of state to get donald trump's name removed? >> i think the supreme court is going to issue a holding that will be broadly applicable to all states. i think that is what they are going to endeavor to do so that they do not have to relitigate how many other state lawsuits that may come their way here. >> the possibility for chaos is and listened that scenario. i wonder, chuck, we are talking about this immunity claim that the president continues to make down in mar-a-lago, he's making it in the georgia case, we will

get to that in a second. do you think these two cases, that there is kind of, whether spoken or not, an intersection in the minds of the court? like they might hand trump a loss on a presidential immunity defensive to hand him a win on the 14th amendment case, which would be you could stay on the ballot? >> certainly linked to the minds of the public, whether or not the justices are thinking that way, i do not know. but it is hard, because they don't -- in many cases they can pick what they hear. many people petitioned the supreme court, it takes a very small number of cases each year. they are kind of stuck. these are the biggest, most important cases, and they involve very difficult constitutional issues. so i am not sure that you can duck it, and i hope that they decided on the facts and the law in front of them, not one for you and one for the other guy. i think that would be a mistake. >> kristie, i don't understand

-- can you just explain to those of us are new to the law, that is me, about how -- if the d.c. circuit court can rule so, definitively on the presidential immunity case, the wisdom of basically throwing that spaghetti back at the wall down in florida which is effectively what trump seems to be doing, -- >> trump had a lot of success in florida before judge cannon. i think he is shooting his shot hoping that maybe she will come up with a different interpretation. again, the circuit opinion is so good, it is so clear, and convincing in how it just methodically disposes of each of trump's arguments. for her to come out completely differently, and i feel, would be pretty lawless at this point. i actually do not think that that is where this would land. but he is going to take his best shot. >> yeah. >> if i could have one thing, kristie is exactly right. the d.c. circuit doesn't bind judge cannon. judge cannon and the southern district of florida resides with the 11th circuit court of

appeals. christy is 100% right. it is a very, very strong opinion, well reasoned, well written. >> in another part of the country? >> in another part of the country. if the goal is delay, and delay has been the goal, why not raise these same in the other place? >> to the supreme court not take up the circuit court of appeals, litigation and just if aileen cannon picks us up and rules on it, could an alternate pipeline go to the supreme court? does that make any sense? could they basically take up aileen cannon's version of this and not the d.c. circuit courts? >> yes, actually. i would expect that the supreme court may have some real questions as to whether or not there is anything there for them to answer. this was a unanimous opinion, it was a strong opinion, so they may not take it up. it may go back to judge chutkan and she may set a trial date. let's say that judge cannon does something very different -- >> she's been known to do that. >> she does, she does something

very different, it goes to the 11th circuit, we have a there very different few, and maybe something that the supreme court may take up again. these arguments that donald trump is making about having absolute immunity are frivolous. so i really do not see, i do not foresee judge cannon, you know, straying too far from what the d.c. circuit has already ruled, where the 11th circuit for that matter. >> i do have to ask, because the circuit court was so clear, chuck, saying that this decision does not hold for state level prosecution. donald trump is trying out the presidential immunity defense, yes? at mar-a-lago with judge cannon? he's also trying it out down in georgia with judge mcafee and the fani willis conspiracy case. do you think the dynamics changed dramatically down there? >> i do not think that the law changes dramatically. but again, if you look at it through the lens of delay, if you're goal is to push these cases off as far as we possibly can, then what is the incentive

for mr. trump not to raise it again in georgia, in florida, and anywhere he is charged? it doesn't mean he is going to win. christy is right. it is a very strong opinion, the law is clear, the appeal was frivolous. but look at it through the lens of delay. why not? >> why not seems to be the legal strategy in trump land. chuck, rosenberg and kristy greenberg, thank you for your time, and analysis on this. i appreciate you. tomorrow night, starting at eight pm eastern, speaking of the 14th amendment that will be joining our colleagues in our primetime special coverage, a recap of oral arguments at the supreme court, all about that 14th amendment case, you are not going to want to miss it. coming up, secretary of state hillary clinton weighs in on the war in gaza, and what she thinks needs to happen to prime minister bibi netanyahu. that is next. is next. keep g fresh waaaay longer

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today, israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu rejected a counter proposal for a cease-fire put forward by hamas, saying that there is no solution besides total victory for israel. despite the setback, secretary of state antony blinken says he hopes a deal can be reached to positive fighting and pledged the u.s. will work at that relentlessly until they get there. he spoke to former secretary of state hillary clinton about the war in gaza and what happened next. here is what she has to say.

>> i got to ask because he said, the people being killed over there is horrible. it's more than 27,000 gazans who have been killed, and israel estimates that a fifth of the hostages have been killed. in the meantime, universities and schools have been destroyed. young gazans are ripe for radicalization. if your goal as the israeli government is to root out terrorism and hamas, how is any of this in the interest of the israeli government. >> you know, it's a war, alex, at that israel did not start. hamas started a. but israel as a right to defend itself. but it has to abide by the laws of war. look at what russia did to ukraine, destroying a hospitals, schools, leveling whole cities, kidnapping children, it's horrible. when you are the aggressor, as hamas was on october the 7th or as russia was in february of 2022, what do you do with an

aggressor? you have to stop them i think it's fair to say, hamas care is nothing about the civilians who are being murdered or killed, but by hamas still in gaza or through military operations by issue. the hamas leaders cannot be clear. hamas is not doing anything to protect palestinians -- >> israelis are bombing rafah, which is what they told palestinians to move to. >> that is horrible, it's horrible, and there is something that we wish there would be a cease-fire, if hamas would agree to a cease-fire, there would be a cease-fire. >> secretary clinton had this essay about president biden's current relationship with the prime minister netanyahu how that might and maybe should change. >> what do you think of biden's handling of the issue? he's very early in lockstep with prime minister netanyahu. it feels like there is a bit more distance between the two men, especially on the subject of the two-state solution.

it seems like it can be costing biden politically. >> i think biden has done everything that he could do to number one, respond to the legitimate concerns of the israeli people, following october 7th, to ally himself with zero in the face of a terrorist attack from a terrorist organization, but i think it's also clear that biden is doing everything he can to influence netanyahu. i've written about this. i have said that netanyahu should go. he is not a trustworthy leader. it was on his watch that the attack happened. he needs to go, and if he is an obstacle to a cease-fire. if he's an obstacle to exploring what needs to be that the day after, he absolutely needs to go. >> the absolutely needs to go. a bit discussing that and what secretary clinton had to say about cease-fire protests across the u.s., including in her own classroom at columbia

university. that is next. columbia university. that is next. ♪hey♪ ♪ ♪are you ready for me♪ ♪are you ready♪ ♪are you ready♪

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one of the biggest issues for him right now, especially with voters of color, young voters, sitting on the campus of columbia university, this has been a place where there have been a lot of protests that have made national news. students are the crying what they call censorship. there have been protests. some students have protested your own classes. what is the appropriate way for a university to handle the deep divide and the questions about, what can and cannot be said in the course of debate? >> i think that there is a role for protests. i think that there should be rules set, guardrails set. you have to get a permit to have an event or a march here in new york. i am not saying it's easy, because it's not, and i think

people violate the rules, have to be held accountable. from my perspective, you can't have a responsible debate about whatever your point of view is if you're screaming at each other. >> do you think though, i mean, there are people that understand or believe that what is happening in gaza is a genocide, right? i would imagine that it's hard to say, you can talk about it, you can call it genocide, but you have to do in this way. >> no, no, you can have that conversation in a classroom but not screaming about it. >> that was professor hillary clinton expanding interviews on the way that cease-fire protests across the u.s. and on college campuses. joining me to discuss all that is michelle goldberg, opinion columnist for the new york times. michelle, thank you for being here. just for context here, hillary clinton, former secretary of state, former presidential candidate, she has been teaching and columbia university.

she is starting the institute of global politics there. today, she did three hours as part of the panel talking about the future of ukraine. this is somebody that is grappling with this campus free speech concerns in and around the war in gaza quite literally on her front doorstep. i wonder what you make of her delineation, of severe conversations can happen, but they can have in an orderly fashion, when we talk about something like whether genocide is thunder not? >> it does not surprise me that somebody who is a professor or administrator is not a fan of disrupting protests, especially when, often, she is the one being disrupted. i think it's too much to expect her to cheer that on, even if you do sympathize with the concerns that the protesters, and i think she is right that some of these thorny questions, like whether israel's actions in gaza can be construed as a genocide do require a lot of nuanced conversation about international laws of war, rather than shouting of slogans. i was quite shocked about what

she said about just her -- antony blinken today in jerusalem is able to say that the civilian casualties in gaza are unacceptably high. it's really surprising to me not to hear her say that. >> i ask their point blank, what about rafah, which the israelis are reportedly targeting, which is where palestinians were told to flee, and she said it's horrible, but, effectively, it's a war. it feels like there are a number of divides here. one, there is the divide on what you understand the nature of war, how you understand the nature of war, what you think israel should be allowed to do in its purported on defense. and then there feels there is a generational divide on this issue. i think you saw on the early iteration of that in biden's initial response to this. as if he really did not understand where a whole, where the american youth in large part are on this issue, and they see it wildly differently. >> i am glad to put it like

that, that there are separate divides, because there is a divide about who is the aggressor, in which case, i side with people who say that hamas started this round of hostilities with their rampage and a massacre on october 7th, but the question is, that does not license anything in response, right? hillary clinton gestured towards yes, israel asked to follow the laws of war. or they could know whether she thinks they are following the loss of war, because there has been a lot of evidence, not just in these truly horrific and unacceptable levels of civilian casualties. the new york times reported this week on the social media videos of israeli soldiers committing vandalism, bulldozing and blowing up a civilian infrastructure in a way that is kind of unclear if there is any military purpose. there is a lot of evidence that israel is not taking every step possible, far from it, to protect the people of gaza.

you hear the rhetoric coming from israeli leaders that is extremely heat lists to palestinian life. to >> that and, she is clear that netanyahu needs to go. it's clear that you have this is the kuhn a round the aggressions of israel, the potential genocidal acts, war crimes committed, and she is not necessarily going to adjust that, but she will say -- >> that's a consensus issue. that's pretty close to a consensus issue in israel itself, not a consensus issue, but overwhelming opposition at this point to the netanyahu, whatever your views on the war. >> do you think when we talk about the protests in israel and the united states, what do you make of the sort of peril that biden has to manage at this hour, given the cease-fire agreement is not going where it needs to go. the casualty numbers are staggering, and a fifth of the hostages may be dead. >> it's obviously extremely

serious, and you see this impulse, both kind of muslim and arab voters, who are souring on biden, pledging not to vote for him in disinfection of young voters in the distracting primary battles over israel in lots of congressional campaigns, and i think biden recognizes that he needs to create some distance from netanyahu. he just put this. he sanctioned west bank settlers in what is an important step, but i still think that there needs to be more distance. the theory, at least what the administration was saying, is that they are hugging he'd be in public and trying to prod him in public. well, bts no interest in trying to shore up biden's miracle fortunes. he holds him in complete contempt. i think it's past time to admit the strategy is not working. >> yes, i can say that bibi netanyahu is probably a trump supporter at this point.

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