they are doing. the original post, as you probably know, now has over 200 million views, but christine assessor favorite spots came courtesy of succession's roman roy. they posted, quote, almost social media manager reading all of the responses like and including a gif of kieran cocaine as ronan roy watching's email blowup. that's why so many people opened up to, christina says this, you need to be a little bit more honest because you know a caring friend is listening and genuinely wants to know. the foundation of friendship elmo, the foundation of friendship that amount has with the world, it really resonated, it certainly did. keep up the good work, christina, from hoboken, and i have a feeling that we will be needing a lot more encouragement from our friend among the shear. and on that note, i wish you all a very good night.

we hope you are doing well. from all of our colleagues across the network of nbc news, thank you for staying up late, icu at the end of tomorrow. of today, i saw down with former secretary of state presidential candidate hillary clinton and we covered a lot of ground. we talked about conflicts overseas in the middle east and in ukraine. we talked about donald trump's legal jeopardy and the utter chaos and the republican party. chaos that, by the way, it's in full display tonight. with the senate now scrambling to find a path forward after republicans killed their own bipartisan border legislation in order to appease donald trump. for weeks, republicans have insisted that they would not pass aid for israel in taiwan, as well as urgently needed funding for ukraine unless democrats agreed to have new border policies. just to put this all into perspective for, ukraine is facing some of its biggest challenges since this war began. russia has ramped up missile strikes across the country, as ukraine has been forced to ration munitions. ukrainian armies are fighting fatigue, and morale issues

among its ranking file, and in the meantime, republicans are playing politics. they are playing politics with the vital resources that ukrainians to defend its democracy from invaders. democrats agreed to work with republicans and to craft a bipartisan bill to increase border security measures in exchange for that aid. but then, donald trump came out against the deal. he did not want to hand president biden a victory on trump's favorite campaign issue, which is drumming up fear about what is happening at the border. today, republicans voted to kill their own bill in the senate. the final vote was 49 to 50 with all but four republicans voting against it. after that, just stunning defeat, democratic leader, chuck schumer, put a second bill on the floor. it strips of the border stuff and just funds aid to israel and ukraine and taiwan which it's what the democrats wanted in the very first place. 58 senators voted today to advance that bill. that is just shy of the 60 votes that they are going to need for final passage. and now senate leaders have

until the end of the day tomorrow to convince two more republicans to support this bill before the senate leaves town for two weeks. even if they do manage to convince those two senators that aid bill is going to face an uphill battle and the republican-controlled house. ukraine is in desperate need of support, but republicans are not willing to help ukraine because they are terrified of donald trump's retribution. i asked former secretary of state, hillary clinton, about all of that today. >> we are here because it is a panel on the future, it is a day of events related to the future of ukraine, and i have

got to ask you, watching this sort of spectacle unfold in washington around this basic idea of ukraine funding, what is your reaction to what the republican party has done on this issue, or not done? >> you know, it is fascinating, alex, because i think that a very small minority of the republican party has hijacked the party when it comes to a number of things. like border security, and aid for ukraine. i actually think that a majority of republicans in both houses, if given the chance, would vote for both border security and ukraine funding. it doesn't appear that they will get a chance to vote on border funding because it is not clear that it will pass the culture requirement, but i think that they will get a chance to vote on ukraine funding along with israeli funding. i expect that to pass both houses. >> you are optimistic? >> i am. about those two things. i think stripping of the border security, the defeat in the

house of the israeli only sets up a option for the senate to pass both ukraine and israeli aid, and then senate to the house. >> i have got to think, though, if you are volodymyr zelenskyy, and this is a matter of life and death, and you are watching a circus unfold do you think that it changes, there are so many reasons why the globe has thought differently of america in different years but a moment like that, where it is so clear that they are engaging in the most based partisan theatrics over such an incredible, an incredibly critical issue with ukraine, do you think that forever changes the relationship america has with that part of the world? >> no. i think it raises questions, and those are understandable because watching this profoundly dysfunctional republican party in the

congress, unable to make up its own mind about what it believes, what it will vote for, in part because there are enthralled to trump which is just so hard to understand, it does of course raise questions. but i do think that there is still a majority and both houses to support aid for ukraine and, of course, president biden is fully on board. at the end of the day, i am hoping that there will be a positive vote in the congress, which will send a clear message, not just ukrainians, europeans, others around the world, but to our own country. why would we reward such, not just dysfunctional behavior, but it is so unserious. it is -- i saw a columnist

siena de used silly. it is profoundly silly to watch this circus and congrats, were donald trump is the puppeteer. i was in the senate for eight years, and i know some of the people that are still there. i know that they don't believe this. and why they continue to give into him, i don't understand. i think the border security would have been a very good time to stand up to trump and say you've been talking about it. we are delivering for you, mister president, and go from there. we will see what happens next. >> were you surprised by their capitulation to trump's win is? >> i am surprised. it was a very serious effort. my publicans have done this before when i was in the senate we overwhelmingly passed an immigration reform in addition to security other provisions as well. we passed overwhelmingly in the senate. then, president george w. bush said that he would sign it and the republican leadership in the house would never bring it up for a vote. so i have said for years that they would rather have a problem on the border than a solution. but i thought that this time, given the seriousness of the negotiation, the fact that it was only about security, that

frankly the democrats gave up a lot to support the republican request for greater security, which i favored, actually. and then at the last minute, to have donald trump tell people who are independently elected in their states, and have an obligation to represent their constituents and their conscience, that they had to stop trying to solve the problem and go back to letting it faster for his own political purposes, it was pretty shocking to me. >> and to do so so explicitly? >> it wasn't even a surprise. >> trump is telling us that we

can do it, it is not good for him in an election, so we will not do it. >> there were a few profiles in courage for a little while, people standing up and saying what are you talking about? we want to solve this problem. that is why we are sent to washington. but then they capitulated, and honestly, it shows a really big danger that trump poses where it doesn't matter whether you have a bipartisan agreement to solve a problem or not. if he wants it for political purposes, then he tries to and that is what authoritarians do. that is yet another reason why we cannot let him anywhere near the white house again. >> that is former secretary of

state hillary clinton weighing on the existential threat that trump poses to the legislative process among other things. joining me now is the chief correspondent, and host of velshi on the weekends. i should note that ali has reported extensively from ukraine and even moderated a panel in ukraine which is where i was speaking with secretary clinton. and there you are that very well timed panel, ali. i want to get to ukraine in a second. but for the last couple of days we have border negotiations, they were emblematic of the stranglehold that donald trump has on the party. it seems to me there is a step further. ukraine could also be even more of a test given what has passed with the border billet but the degree to which donald trump has destroyed this party and everything that it once stood for. >> at least the border issue, well everybody should've wanted to fix it, nobody actually has gotten it right for a long time. republican priorities are different from -- that is the wild part. the support for funding ukraine prior to this war as an ally that was defending itself against an adversary was almost completed in both houses of congress. so the idea that, as hillary clinton said to you, people are voting against their own interest if they were just allowed to vote, they would probably support ukraine. but they are not because you cannot get out of this minefield that donald trump is planted.

doing the right thing is not the right thing. remember, on the border, donald trump just wants an issue. on ukraine, he's got other interests. >> and makes it even more nefarious. it is like you sleep sort of well at night saying eventually of trump's president we will deal with the border. but ukrainian see money now. >> ukraine will go the wrong way. >> this is a victory for putin. >> all putin east to do is hold out for another few months. it is a stalemate on the ground, not stalemate elsewhere. ukraine made gains, they push the russians to the east of the black sea, the russians do not have air superiority the way that they did. a number of drones and missiles hit kyiv, we know at least four people are dead in the last 24 hours. but they are pushing back. the bad news is that we are two

years into this court. the good news is that two years and ukraine is still around. because they're speculation that ukraine wouldn't last a week. >> the fact of the matter is each week is a gift to the ukrainians. >> this could go away anytime. if you are vladimir putin, you just want donald trump to come in and you will do what you need to do if you have to interfere in the election to have that happen. that is what the differences here. these members of congress who are playing whack-a-mole and chicken with what they think donald trump wants, you could lose in the process and possibly other countries around it. >> it is not just donald trump who is parroting putin's lines. tucker carlson, who is a bandleader for the faction of republicans in these bills, was in moscow interviewing vladimir putin. i asked secretary clinton about that journalistic endeavor and this is what she had to say. >> tucker carlson is in moscow right now interviewing vladimir putin. the first american journalist to interview putin since the war in ukraine. what does not tell you about tucker carlson and right-wing media and also vladimir putin? >> it shows me what i think we all know. he's what is called a useful idiot. if you actually read translations of what is being said on russian media, they make fun of him. he's like a puppy dog. you know, somehow, after having been fired from so many outlets and the united states, he -- i wouldn't be surprised if he

emerges with a contract with the russian outlet because he is a useful idiot. he says things that are not true, he perez what amir putin's pack of lies about ukraine, so i do not see why putin wouldn't give him an interview. because through him, he can continue to lie about what is objectives are in ukraine, and what he expects to see happen. it is really quite sad that not just somebody like tucker carlson who has, as i said, been fired so many times because he seems unable to correlate his reporting with the truth, but also because it is a sign that there are people in this country right now who are like a fifth column from vladimir putin. why? i don't know. why are certain republicans

throwing their lot in? why are other americans basically believing putin? why did trump believe putin more than our 11 intelligence agencies? >> i don't know, do you have a working theory on that? >> i do have a working theory. but it is more than just the political partisan advantage. there is a yearning for leaders who can kill and imprisoned their opponents, destroy the press, lead a life that is one of impunity and bound by any laws. there is a yearning among certain people in our country for that kind of leadership. and i find that absolutely gobsmacked-ing in terrifying. >> i find gob smacking and terrifying as well. we talk about disinformation on social media. disinformation from people like

tucker carlson? the platform that he has and the fact that he is a willing participant to it. >> and he has been for a while so he's been a big fan of victor in hungary. he speaks of these events here and tucker carlson goes and does a show from hungary. he talked before the war came out about how we shouldn't be in bed with ukraine because he called it a corrupt little country. ukraine had a corruption problem and there is no question, they will have to fix not because it will be under the watchful eye of the rest of the world. it is not a reason to get invaded by russia. so, the things that tucker said is not american journalists will not hold volodymyr zelenskyy to account. like, i don't know what you are talking about, man.

we covered that war, there are things that ukrainians do that are not fantastic. and we discussed it with them at all times. but they're a country that has been invaded by another country. >> and it fundamentally believes in democracy in a way that vladimir putin who has thrown people in jail -- >> they struggled to find their democratic footing and they really struggled. and they are trying, and trying, and trying, that is what the larger point is. and the same way that in america, if someone doesn't like all of joe biden's policies, you have to look at for this election, is it a choice between who is upholding democracy and who is not. that is your issue in russia and ukraine. who's upholding democracy and who is not. tucker carlson is going to be the journalist none of us are. >> the journalist -- you are a journalist without quotes, my friend. thank you for joining me and thank you for holding high the

lamp shining a light on what is happening over on ukraine both on air and in columbia university. it is great to see you, ali velshi. we have a lot more of my exclusive interview with hillary clinton coming up, including her thoughts on what the supreme court might do regarding both donald trump's presidential immunity claims and whether he's actually eligible to run for president. stay with us. ad to choose, would you watch paint dry or compare benefits plans? compare benefits. gusto makes it easier to find the right plan for my team. i think i'm going to need new glasses. no problem. you're covered. choose benefits without the mess.

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please join me in voting yes on prop e. ♪ ♪ ♪ >> all eyes are on the supreme court now that donald trump has officially lost his presidential immunity argument that the circuit court level. he has until monday to appeal that decision to the supreme court. the high court response to that almost inevitable appeal could decide whether special counsel jack smith and his federal election interference case against trump can move forward. i asked former secretary of state, former presidential candidate, hillary clinton what she thinks is going to happen next. >> are you optimistic about what the supreme court does next? >> i think on this particular issue, if i were the supreme court, i wouldn't want to wait and to this. it is such a good opinion that i would deny, and let the

opinion stand. it is in line with previous opinions. you know, when trump made the argument about this future president, well, he is the only one who has been in this position. and he is the only one who has claimed such broad blanket immunity. and we know what his real thoughts are. remember, i could shoot somebody on fifth avenue, my supporters wouldn't care. he thinks that he should be above the law. that he should be able to manipulate the law. the last time that i checked,

despite trump and his supporters efforts to undermine this, we were a nation based on the rule of law, not on the rule of individual men the way that trump keeps trying to claim. >> as someone who ran for the presidency and won the popular vote, can you even wrap your head around arguing in court that you should be able to assassinate your political enemies using s. e. a. l. team six? how did that argument land with you? >> he says so many outrageous things that i think a lot of people have stopped listening and they shouldn't. they should pay very careful attention to what trump says.

because if they do, they can see the linkage between what he says and what he tries to do, in his first term on many okay shuns, he was rained in and even stopped by the people around him because there were people who he put into an important position who had served in government under pyro publican presidents who understood the rule of law, who understood the constitutional system, and so much more. they were able to stop him. he will now fill those positions if ever given a chance, which i hope never happens, with people who are

totally members of his cold, and i do not say that lightly, because when i look at people who i know were horrified by january 6th, who were republicans in the house and the senate, who have come around to dismissing it, and discounting the horror that they themselves felt as they put themselves under desks as they ran down hallways, as they tried to escape the mob coming at them, there is something about trump's hold on the republican party that is frightening. >> somehow, the fact that trump was resoundingly rejected by the federal appeals court has not dimmed trump's enthusiasm for using that presidential immunity defense. today, we got the news trump is also trying to argue he has presidential immunity and the mar-a-lago classified documents case, trump's lawyers told the court today that they are going to file motions attempting to toss that case out for a whole litany of reasons, one among them was yet again, presidential immunity. so how did the supreme court respond? it will matter well beyond the d. c. election interference case. although there is one place that it won't go. the state of georgia. found in fulton county where d. a. fani willis's prosecuting trump for election conspiracy, trump is also trying to claim presidential immunity. but in the appeals court ruling yesterday and a footnote, the court made clear that its ruling does not apply to state

level prosecutions. that means the appeals court decision would not apply to trump's case in georgia. could his presidential immunity defense fly in a different state? we are going to get some expert legal help unpacking all of that and hear more of my interview with hillary clinton right after the break. ♪

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for your family... and mine. i approved this message because this is who we are. >> all eyes are on the supreme court now that donald trump has officially lost his presidential -- . section three of the 14th amendment. i spoke to former presidential candidate hillary clinton about how she thinks the court will handle such a novel case. >> the supreme court is taking up the 14th democrats into mauro. >> the trump foment an instruction? should he be taken out about.

let's take the first part at the. the idea of effectively defeating trump by getting him off the, validating that is a good endeavor or not? >> i have tried to educate myself on this because it's clear that this is not a section of the 14th amendment, section three to a lot of us paid a lot of attention to in the pass. >> haven't had. two >> haven't had to, thinking. this but there is a very strong argument, and, remember, the argument did not come from liberals, did not come from people who already are against trump at all. they came from conservative, original us, as they like to call themselves, law professors, lawyers, who basically say, if you read section three of the 14th amendment, it's pretty clear that he should not be permitted to run for president. i think the argument is very strongly on their side. what is the remedy? is the remedy for the supreme court to say, no, he can't be

on the ballot, or is the remedy for the court to say, this very well can apply constitutionally, but it's up to the states to make the determination because, remember, states in our federalists system actually run elections. i think that might be where the court ends up. maybe they could get to the point of saying, no, no, section three does not apply, or you have to be convicted for us. they could come out for trump, but if they want to be true to their so-called originalist interpretation. then i think they had to find that section three applies to people who foment and participate in insurrections, but the remedy lies in the states, which would be kind of a fair way of kind of parsing this. >> we worried about that if it's left up to the states, you basically get trump taken off the ball simply state since they on the ball and red states? >> that is what our federalists

system very well may lead to. i think it would be better if you are roundly defeated, but on the other hand, i don't think it's wise to ignore the constitution. so, it's a really difficult problems that he has created for the courts and four states. you're in a dilemma, if you ignore the constitution and basically say, we are not paying attention to it, or you tried to write it away and say, it does not apply, even though most historians, as well as legal experts say it does, you're also doing damage. that's why i say, maybe they'll come up with this approach. look, the states run elections, obi up to the states. i think a lot of states have been reluctant to be taken off the ballot. i think that will always be a political firestorm in the states. but on the other, hand somewhere. >> i just wonder, thinking about the 2016 election, right, we are more deeply divided than

even then. i think about the 2020 election, where half of the republican party -- the quarters of the republican party, depending on the polling, does not believe that joe biden won. what happens if you don't even have donald trump on the ballot? and one part of a country elects joe biden, and the other, donald trump. >> look at why we are in this mass. we're in this mess because we have a man who cares nothing about our constitution, here's the thing about our country, cares nothing about real national security, all he cares about is himself. he cares about is empower, his own prestige, his own standing, and how do you say, wait a minute, this is not permitted within our system. as i said, i would be perfectly satisfied if we beat him, both in the popular vote and in the electoral college, as joe biden did so convincingly in 2020, but we also have, loss and that

is what courts are for. they have to interpret those laws. >> joining me now are trucker sandberg, msc interpreter, former u.s. attorney and fbi official, mr. greenberg, former sdny criminal division deputy chief. thank you both for being here tonight, guys. chuck, let me start with you in terms of the scenario that secretary clinton paints it there, the idea that the supreme court might return decision to the states. how realistic do you think is that coming from the high court? >> i heard a lot of smart people sit at the four things about what might happen. i would be lying if i told you how i knew. look, secretary clinton's right. in the main, elections are the problems of the states, and they set lots of rules on the polls open, when polls close, when mel and bots are due, all of the sorts of things. is it possible that the supreme court returns to the states, i think so. district made that it would be chaotic. >> completely chaotic, what it and be, christy? would it not just be up to,

depending on what the process is, get it the name on the ballot, the secretaries of state or the voters to sue the secretaries of state to get donald trump's name removed? >> i think the supreme court is going to issue a holding that will be broadly applicable to all states. i think that is what they are going to endeavor to do so that they do not have to relitigate how many other state lawsuits that may come their way here. >> the possibility for chaos is and listened that scenario. i wonder, chuck, we are talking about this immunity claim that the president continues to make down in mar-a-lago, he's making it in the georgia case, we will get to that in a second. do you think these two cases, that there is kind of, whether spoken or not, an intersection in the minds of the court? like they might hand trump a loss on a presidential immunity defensive to hand him a win on the 14th amendment case, which would be you could stay on the ballot? >> certainly linked to the minds of the public, whether or not the justices are thinking that way, i do not know. but it is hard, because they

don't -- in many cases they can pick what they hear. many people petitioned the supreme court, it takes a very small number of cases each year. they are kind of stuck. these are the biggest, most important cases, and they involve very difficult constitutional issues. so i am not sure that you can duck it, and i hope that they decided on the facts and the law in front of them, not one for you and one for the other guy. i think that would be a mistake. >> kristie, i don't understand -- can you just explain to those of us are new to the law, that is me, about how -- if the d. c. circuit court can rule so, definitively on the presidential immunity case, the wisdom of basically throwing that spaghetti back at the wall down in florida which is effectively what trump seems to be doing, -- >> trump had a lot of success in florida before judge cannon. i think he is shooting his shot hoping that maybe she will come up with a different

interpretation. again, the circuit opinion is so good, it is so clear, and convincing in how it just methodically disposes of each of trump's arguments. for her to come out completely differently, and i feel, would be pretty lawless at this point. i actually do not think that that is where this would land. but he is going to take his best shot. >> yeah. >> if i could have one thing, kristie is exactly right. the d. c. circuit doesn't bind judge cannon. judge cannon and the southern district of florida resides with the 11th circuit court of appeals. christy is 100% right. it is a very, very strong opinion, well reasoned, well written. >> in another part of the country? >> in another part of the country. if the goal is delay, and delay has been the goal, why not raise these same in the other place? >> to the supreme court not take up the circuit court of appeals, litigation and just if aileen cannon picks us up and rules on it, could an alternate pipeline go to the supreme court? does that make any sense? could they basically take up aileen cannon's version of this

and not the d. c. circuit courts? >> yes, actually. i would expect that the supreme court may have some real questions as to whether or not there is anything there for them to answer. this was a unanimous opinion, it was a strong opinion, so they may not take it up. it may go back to judge chutkan and she may set a trial date. let's say that judge cannon does something very different -- >> she's been known to do that. >> she does, she does something very different, it goes to the 11th circuit, we have a there very different few, and maybe something that the supreme court may take up again. these arguments that donald trump is making about having absolute immunity are frivolous. so i really do not see, i do not foresee judge cannon, you know, straying too far from what the d. c. circuit has already ruled, where the 11th circuit for that matter. >> i do have to ask, because the circuit court was so clear, chuck, saying that this decision does not hold for state level prosecution.

donald trump is trying out the presidential immunity defense, yes? at mar-a-lago with judge cannon? he's also trying it out down in georgia with judge mcafee and the fani willis conspiracy case. do you think the dynamics changed dramatically down there? >> i do not think that the law changes dramatically. but again, if you look at it through the lens of delay, if you're goal is to push these cases off as far as we possibly can, then what is the incentive for mr. trump not to raise it again in georgia, in florida, and anywhere he is charged? it doesn't mean he is going to win. christy is right. it is a very strong opinion, the law is clear, the appeal was frivolous. but look at it through the lens of delay. why not? >> why not seems to be the legal strategy in trump land. chuck, rosenberg and kristy greenberg, thank you for your time, and analysis on this. i appreciate you. tomorrow night, starting at eight pm eastern, speaking of the 14th amendment that will be joining our colleagues in our primetime special coverage, a recap of oral arguments at the supreme court, all about that 14th amendment case, you are not going to want to miss it.

coming up, secretary of state hillary clinton weighs in on the war in gaza, and what she thinks needs to happen to prime minister bibi netanyahu. that is next. that is next. that is next. only sleep number smart beds let you each choose your individual firmness and comfort. your sleep number setting. and actively cools and warms up to 13 degrees on either side. now save 50% on the sleep number limited edition smart bed. plus, free home delivery when you add an adjustable base ends monday. only at sleep number.

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today, israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu rejected a counter proposal for a cease-fire put forward by hamas, saying there is no solution beside total victory for israel. despite this setback, secretary of state antony blinken said he still hopes a deal can be reached to pause the fighting and pledge the u.s. will work at that relentlessly in till it gets there. we spoke with former secretary of state hillary clinton about the war in gaza and what happens next, and this is what she had to say. >> reporter: i gotta ask, because you said the people being killed over there is horrible. it's more than 27,000 gazans who have been killed. and israel estimates that a fifth of the hostages have been killed. in the meantime, universities and schools have been destroyed, young gazans are ripe for

radicalization. if you're goal as the israeli government fist to root out terrorism, root out hamas, how is any of this in the interest of the israeli government? >> you know, it's a war, alex, that israel did not start, hamas started it. and israel has a right to defend itself. but it has to abide by the laws of war. look at what russia's done to ukraine, destroying hospitals, schools, leveling whole cities, kidnapping children. it's horrible. it's a horrible. when you're the aggressor, as hamas was on october the 7th, or as russia was in february of 2022, what do you do with an aggressor? you have to stop them. and i think it's fair to say, hamas cares nothing about the civilians who are being murdered or killed, both by hamas still in gaza, or through military operations by israel. the hamas leaders cannot be more clear. hamas is not doing

anything to protect palestinians. >> reporter: israelis are now targeting rafah, which is where they now told palestinian you do. >> well, that's horrible. it's horrible. and it's something that we wish there was a cease-fire, if hamas would agree to a cease-fire, there would be a cease-fire. >> and secretary clinton had this to say about president biden's current relationship with prime minister netanyahu and how that might and maybe should change. >> reporter: what do you think of biden's handling of the issue? he was very early, you know, in lockstep with prime minister netanyahu. it feels like he's -- there's a bit more distance between the two men, especially on the subject of a two-state solution. it seems like it could be costing biden politically. >> i think biden has done everything he could do to, number one, respond to the legitimate concerns of the israeli people following october 7th, two ally himself with israel in the face of a terror attack from a terrorist

organization. but i think it's also clear that biden is doing everything he can to influence netanyahu. i've written about this, i said netanyahu should go. he is not a trustworthy leader. it was on his watch that the attack happened. he needs to go. and if he's an obstacle to a cease-fire, if he's an obstacle to exploring what is to be done the day after, he absolutely needs to go. >> he absolutely needs to go. i will be discussing that and what secretary clinton had to say about cease-fire protest across the u.s., including in her own classroom at columbia university. that's next. at columbia university. that's next.

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call censorship. there have been protests. some people have protested your classes. what is the appropriate way for a university to handle the deep divide in the questions about a what can and what cannot be said in the course of debate? >> i think there's a rule for protest. i think there should be rules set, guardrails set, you know, just like, you know, you have to get a permit to have an event here in new york. and it not saying it's easy, because it's not. and i think people who violate the rules have to be accountable . so from my perspective, you can't have a responsible debate about whatever your point of view is if you are screaming at each other. >> reporter: do you think though, i mean, there are people that understand and believe that what is happening in gaza is a genocide. and i would imagine it's hard to say.

you can talk about it, you can call it genocide, but you have to do it in this way. >> oh no, you can have that conversation in a classroom, but not screaming about it. >> that was professor hillary clinton explaining her views on the wave of cease-fire protest across the u.s. and on college campuses. joining me to talk about all that is michelle goldberg, columnist for the new york times. michelle, thank you for being here. so just for some context here, i mean, hillary clinton, yes, former secretary of state, yes, former senator, former presidential candidate. she is -- she has been teaching at columbia university. she started, i think, the institute of global politics there. today she spent three hours as part of a panel talking about the future of ukraine. this is someone who is grappling with this kind of campus free speech concerns in and around the war on gaza, quite literally on our front doorstep. i wonder what you make of her sort of delineation that some conversations can happen, but they have to happen in an orderly fashion when you're talking about something like

whether genocide is being committed? >> i would say, it doesn't surprise me that somebody who's a professor or administrator is not a fan of disruptive protests. i mean, especially when often she is the one being disrupted. i kind of feel like it's too much to expect her to cheer that on, even if you do sympathize with the concerns of the protesters. and i think that she's right that some of these really thorny questions, like rather israel's actions in gaza can be construed as genocide to require a lot of nuanced conversation about international laws of war, rather than just the shouting of slogans. but i was really quite shocked by some of what she said about just her kind of, you know, antony blinken today, in jerusalem, is able to say that the civilian casualties in gaza are unacceptably high. it's really surprising to me not to hear her say that. >> well, you know, i asked point blank, what about rafah, which these rallies are reportedly targeting, which is where palestinians were told to

flee? she said it's horrible, but it effectively its war, alex. it feels like there are a number of divides here. one, they're sort of like a divide on what you understand the nature of work, how you understand the nature of, or what you think israel should be able to do in its purported own defense. and then it feels like there's a very much a generational divide on this, too. >> mm-hmm. >> and i think he saw the early iteration of that in biden's initial response to that. it's as if he didn't really just understand where a whole -- you know, the american youth, in large part, are on this issue. and they see it wildly differently. >> right, and i think -- i'm glad you put it like that, that there are separate divides. because there's a divide about kind of who is the aggressor, in which case, you know, i side with people who say that, you know, hamas started this round of hostilities with their rampage and massacre on october 7th. the question is, that doesn't license anything in response, right? i mean, hillary clinton gestured towards, yes, israel has to

follow the laws of war. but i'd like to know if she thinks they are following the laws of war, because there has been a lot of evidence, not just in these truly horrific and unacceptable levels of civilian casualties, you know, we -- the new york times reported just this week on these social media videos of israeli soldiers committing vandalism, bulldozing and blowing up the civilian infrastructure in a way that kind of is very unclear that there's any military purpose. there is a lot of evidence that israel is not taking every step possible, far from it, to protect the people of gaza. and it's not really -- you know, you hear the rhetoric coming from israeli leaders that's extremely heedless of palestinian life. >> to that and, she was really clear that bibi netanyahu needs to go. i think it's interesting that you have this kind of laguna around the aggressions of israel, the potential genocidal acts, the wartime potentially committed. and she's not going

to necessarily address that, but she is going to say -- >> well, that's a consensus issue. that's a pretty -- consensus issue in israel itself, i mean, not a consensus issue, but you have overwhelming opposition at this point to be netanyahu, whatever your views on the war. >> do you think, when we talk about the protests in israel and the united states, i mean, what do you make of the sort of parole that biden has to manage at this hour, given the cease- fire agreements not going where it needs to go, the casualty numbers are staggering, and a fifth of the hostages may be dead. >> i, mean it's obviously extremely serious. you see this in polls of muslim and arab voters who are souring on biden, pledging not to vote for him in disaffection of young voters in these really distracting primary polls over israel in lots of congressional campaigns. i think biden recognizes that he needs to create some distance from bibi netanyahu.

he just put this saying shuns -- he sanctioned west bank settlers in what is a really important step. but i still think there needs to be more distance. the theory, at least what the administration was saying, was they are hugging bibi in public and then trying to prod him in private. well, bibi has no interest in kind of shoring up biden's political fortunes. >> correct. >> he holds an incomplete contempt. so it's past time to admit that strategy is not working. >> yes, i can say, bibi netanyahu is probably a trump supporter at this point. joe biden, take note. michelle goldberg, thank you so much for your time tonight, my friend. that is our show for this evening. now it is time for the last word with lawrence o'donnell. good evening, lawrence. >> good evening, alex. we are gonna be joined by a yale law school professor who's actually going to elaborate on what hillary clinton was telling you about what the supreme court might do, and elaborate on exactly hillary clinton's idea in detail. and