good morning. it is saturday, february 10th. i'm charles coleman junior filling in from my friend and colleague, ali velshi. we have got a lot to talk about. we begin this hour at the intersection of two battlefields, legal and political. democracy and the rule of law hanging in the balance. donald trump has tied his political fortunes to his legal entanglements. both were evidenced this week. first, he got the bad news. a three judge panel at the d.c. court of appeals unanimously rejected his presidential immunity argument, which was his best shot at beating back

the dozens of criminal charges he is now facing. i want to say that again. unanimously! that means his lawyer stood up in front of the entire panel of erudite judges, they made their best legal arguments, and when it was all said and done each of them told him, beat it! but now, ladies and gentlemen, the supreme court has entered the chat. that part actually did appear to go very well for the twice impeached, four times indicted, ex president. on thursday, the supreme court heard more efforts in an effort to disqualify the ballot based on saying three of the 14th amendment of the constitution. that seemed to be a step too far for most of the nine justices on the bench. judging from their lines of questioning, they appear skeptical of the case as a whole, and hesitant about the precedent that this could create. while trump probe peers likely to prevail in this case, he still has plenty of legal troubles ahead. there is another case already knocking at the supreme court

stores. if trump actually wants his federal election interference case to stay on pause, he only has until monday to fly all in appeal to the report regarding his sweeping claims are present immunity. joining me now to break down all of this are two of my absolute favorites. anthony coley, msnbc justice and legal affairs analyst. the former director of the office a public affairs and the department of justice, as well as the former chief spokesperson for attorney general, merrick garland. also with us is marley -- one of my famous social media follows. a special correspondent for vanity fair. the host of the fastball ticks podcast. and msnbc lead political analyst, as well. i have not had the opportunity to go through all this on-air. welcome, welcome, welcome. so glad that both of your here. this is the first time since 2000, bush v. gore, we are seeing the supreme court having to weigh in on the case that really has tremendous implications. they seemed a little cautious about getting involved.

what do you make of that? >> right, so, trump's whole argument is really is he so high up as president he was above the law. the reality is, he is not a dictator, he is not a king. he does not have the divine rights afforded to a king, right? that court he was never really trying to win this case on merit, right? he was really trying to just throw the sand into the gears to delay this case as as long as he could. in some respects he did. i think this will be coming to an end pretty soon. i don't even believe the supreme court is going to necessarily take this case. this opinion, this unanimous opinion from the circuit as you just mentioned, it was so tightly written. i wouldn't be surprised if the supreme court didn't take the case. >> people were asking me and some of the other legal analysts about why it was taking the dc circuit court of

appeals so long. i kept telling them, they are writing an opinion that is going to be so tight the supreme court likely isn't going to touch it. in the long run it is one of those things like, measure twice, once. so there is no room to really debate anything. when the opinion came out that's exactly what we saw. molly, we have never had an election quite like this. at least during our lifetime. we'd pretty much know who are the nominees. we know this is going to a space where we have a biden and trump rematch. what do you make of the fact that this is such a bizarre election? still hanging in the balance we have donald trump's criminal entanglements and what that could potentially mean later in the year as we get closer to november? . look, there is no precedent for this. i would add that one of the things that is causing a lot of anxieties in the political chatter and class, so to speak.

the pond and industrial complex. we are not getting a lot of great information. we have seen polls be wrong, again and again. we do not know who is reading what. it is an enormous country. hundreds of millions of people in this country. we don't know who is watching. what the meetings are so silent. social media is so complicated. it is very hard to know what voters are observing. >> that is very true. i wanted to follow up with you. what do you think the role that misinformation plays? you mentioned social media. as we get deeper into the trenches of this election, what kind of a factor do you think misinformation, or foreign tampering, could play in this year's election? >> it could be much worse than previous elections. remember, elon owns twitter. elon has said he is not at all interested in fighting any of that infamous information. that has a cascading effect. even though facebook might have been a better faith act, or

previously, they too are not putting together the kind of fact checking mechanisms that they really need to be doing. tiktok, owned by a conglomerate that involves the chinese government. i think it is a very scary time. we really don't know what kind of information voters are getting. >> i think that is very important to know. a lot of people are not paying to the notion of this misinformation. it came out after 2016. it has quieted down because there has been so much going on. trust and believe, i like you and so many others, anticipate this is will be a conversation going forward. i want to switch gears. we have a new report they came out this week. robert hurd and his report on president biden's handling of the classified documents. you are a former doj guy. i want your take on this. a lot of people have likened it to james comey in terms of what he did during the 2016 election. how it may have impacted

hillary clinton's chances. >> charles, i talked to robert heard right before his appointment of special counsel. i had high hopes that he would really be an umpire. and unbiased umpire who just called balls and strikes as they are. in some senses he did. it is something you got right. it's not appropriate for joe biden or anyone around him to be criminally charged in this case. on the other hand using this extraneous language to talk about biden's mental acuity i think showed extraordinarily bad judgment. it was not consistent with the high tradition of the justice department. i think that robert hur was the wrong choice to be special counsel. i say this as someone who has great respect and affinity for the justice department the attorney general. i think that in retrospect garland should've chosen someone who was, perhaps, at

the end of a distinguished legal career. who can really call it like he or she saw it. what we have here is robert hur, mid career, he wrote a report that feels designed to safeguard his employee in a future republican administration. he got it wrong and i think he was the wrong choice. >> you talked about the doj's tradition. it doesn't just violate the tradition it violates the rules. doj prosecutors are supposed to be exempt from disparaging the reputation of uncharged parties? president biden has not been charged. >> normal prosecutors are. the rules all a little bit different in murky was special counsels. the way that he wrote this language that really have all of us upset he made it jermaine to the issue. he was really clever about it which is really why i am quite

bothered that this type of language was included in this report. i feel pretty strongly that he was the wrong choice to be special counsel. >> molly, what is your take on it from an electors standpoint? this putting the thumb on the scale or do you let it wash off? >> i think the point of this report was to put the thumb on the scale. remember, her worked in the trump administration. this guy is a partisan. what you realize is the democrats are not ready for the republican party that is so hyper partisan. so hyper involved. look at the house of representatives! they've run that like a campaign arm of the trump campaign i really think that we are in a situation now where democrats you can't put a republican to do one of these hur investigations because they are not acting in good faith. this hur is not a neurologist, he is not a doctor right? his, whatever, editorializing about biden is completely irrelevant. it was set up in a way to

deliver right-wing talking points. >> let me make one final point. charles, i want to give joe biden credit here. he and his son are subjected to special counsel investigations by this justice department. joe biden has not interfered in either of the special counsel investigations. that is what it means to have respect for the rule of law. just imagine if the shoe were on the other foot. if bill barr had appointed to obama era u.s. attorneys to investigate donald trump, and or, his children, trump would have burned down the justice department. i think that contrast is important. that has what has been lost over these past couple days. the president, joe biden, has been hands off and both of the special counsel investigations. he should be recognized for that. >> can i add one other thing? saying you don't know in a deposition is pretty standard.

most times people don't then say that person then has dementia. >> that is correct. two excellent points by two excellent gas. antony cole, marley john, thank you for getting us started this second hour of velshi. always a pleasure to talk to you both. coming up, in case you have not noticed we are in the middle of a weird and really terrible election cycle. we are gonna talk about what it means for the future of american democracy and what we can do about it later this hour. but first, we will head to israel for the latest on the war in gaza as the israeli military forces prepare and assault on the southern city of rafah. i am charles coleman junior, and this is velshi on msnbc. is. e directly at the source. voltaren, the joy of movement. there's nothing better than a subway series footlong. except when you add on an all new footlong sidekick. we're talking a $2 footlong churro. $3 footlong pretzel and a five dollar footlong cookie.

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millions of displaced gazans have sought shelter after being forced from their homes. eight agencies warn that many civilians could die in this forthcoming offensive, which follows three airstrikes that killed 28 people overnight. situation for palestinians is dire. the head of the united nations agency that worked with palestinian refugees said yesterday's, quote, people have no idea where to go. joining me now from tel aviv, nbc news foreign correspondent matt bradley. benjamin netanyahu asked the israeli military to evacuate families from rafah, how close are we to this potential offensive? and can even be done realistically? >> well, i can tell you, charles, in answer to your second question, it can be done realistically. we've seen it being done all throughout the entire gaza strip. the question is, can it be done humanely? benjamin netanyahu, the prime minister, as you just mentioned. he's ordered his army to come up with a plan for an evacuation of civilians and there are about 1.4 million

people, more than half of the population of the gaza strip, before october 7th. who are now sheltering in rafah. as you rightly mentioned, a place where the israeli military told them to go. now, the israelis are planning on training their guns on rafah had self. they've already been bombarding over the past several days. there's a lot of fear that spreading in rafah alongside hunger and disease. so, we've been hearing aid groups in the detonation sounding the alarm about what could become a humanitarian disaster there. but for the israeli part, they believe that and benjamin netanyahu said this himself then in order to fully defeat hamas. they need to launch a final assault on rafah. this is the place right along the border between the gaza strip and egypt. he called it the last bastion of hamas. that terrorist group that launched their attack on october 7th that set off this latest round of fighting. now, this all comes as joe biden has launched some rear criticism of israel, and of benjamin netanyahu.

he said that israel's operations in the gaza strip, which have now killed nearly 28,000 people, most of them civilians, and this, according to the hamas-run gaza ministry of health, he said this was, quote over the top. we've been hearing back and forth a lot of talk about some divisions between netanyahu and joe biden. joe biden had given him all but carte blanche in the beginning days of this fighting. all the way back in october. now, we're hearing that there's been a lot of reservations from the white house about how israel has been conducting this war. as it continues to go on there is going to be a lot of questions raised even more. especially when we finally see this assault on rafah. and what, if anything, is to be done about these more than 1 million civilians who are left there? they really don't have any place to go. charles? >> that was nbc's matt bradley in tel aviv, thank you. coming up after a short break, joe biden is behind donald trump in the polls. should we be worried that biden and democrats aren't able to capitalize on what appears to

be -- his opponent? or is donald trump not as weak as we thought? i'm charles coleman junior, that's coming up after a short break, on velshi. stay tuned. eak, on velshi. stay tuned. i'm turning the big seven-o and getting back on the apps. ha ha ha. variants are out there... and i have mouths to feed. big show coming up, so we got ours and that blue bandage? never goes out of style. i prioritize my health... also, the line was short. didn't get a covid-19 shot in the fall? there's still time. book online or go to your local pharmacy.

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welcome back. you're watching velshi on msnbc, i'm charles coleman junior sitting in for ali today. let's talk about the election no one really wanted. which, unfortunately, happens to also be the very election that we are likely about to have. the rematch between joe biden and donald trump seems to be, for many of us, a very poor -- repeat for all the work that we did to survive 2020. but here we are. and to make matters even more concerning, and bizarre, joe biden coming off a relatively productive first term does not appear to be winning against an opponent who was impeached

twice and faces dozens of criminal charges. according to the latest nbc news polling, biden trails trump by five points in a hypothetical general election matchup, with his approval rating hitting its lowest level at 37%. now, i understand, i hear the chatter i do sometimes pay attention to social media. and there may be a lot of you out there who feel like where biden bashing or it's too early in the race and these polls to just not accurate. i get it. i understand, and generally, i'm here to call balls and strikes. urban poet from brooklyn once said, men lie, women lie, but numbers don't. here's the thing, according to a recent navigator research survey, once voters learn about biden's achievements, his net approval rating actually goes up. for instance, despite a strong economy, many americans continue to falsely believe the economy is weak. in reality, there have been

rapid job gains that have exceeded economic expectations. economists rather. more than 14 million jobs created under biden's watch. he's also made significant strides in very is -- including 800,000 manufacturing jobs, lowering the cost of prescription drugs, and advancing clean energy initiatives. biden has also passed the most significant gun safety law in 30 years. tightening background checks investing in the nation's mental system. but these achievements have become overshadowed by the election spectacle. the circus, if you will. it's no secret that most americans don't start taking the race seriously until the final few months. but this is not a regular race, and the stakes extend far beyond politics. the alternative to biden is a swing toward autocracy. led by the guy who's -- believes the presence of absolute immunity, and eregli threatens opponents in the press in the very institutions

of government he has promised to fill with his own loyalists. as if that were enough, there's also the 91 felony charges that trump is currently facing. atlantic columnist tom nichols sums it up best, writing on the democratic side, biden is facing a reversal of the laws of political gravity, mostly because so many american voters are now ruled by vibes. and feelings. rather than facts. including holding together a nato coalition in the face of genocidal russian aggression. and an economic soft landing almost no one thought possible. biden should be running far ahead of any republican challenger. and light years beyond trump. so many americans have not yet internalized the dangers of a second trump term. tom nichols joins me now, he is a staff writer at the atlantic. and author of our own worst men army, the assault from within on modern democracy.

-- the democratic spreaders and political analyst with siriusxm. tom, i want to start with you. i want to be very, very clear about this. one of the things that i've talked about, and i've read a number of your pieces that have really made it plain how urgent a message of protecting democracy this is. in this moment, i think that there is a faction of american voters, the american electorate, who have not necessarily felt protected by the status quo of democracy. what do you say to them? let's put aside the voters who already appreciate democracy as an institution that it is, but to those people who have not felt like american democracy has actually served them or worked for them, what's the motivation there? >> well, the first thing i'd say, if you think american democracy isn't working for you, no way to get a lot of what's about to happen. if donald trump creates an

authoritarian government. but i also think that, you know, we have to think about what our expectations in what our metrics are for judging government. i think one of the things that happens, and i think one reason biden doesn't give a lot of credit for the economy, is that i think it's now become almost certainly, when people toward the left, it's almost goes to speak of the economy doing well. because someone will inevitably say yes. but. there are people suffering. there are still poverty in america. still children going to bed hungry. all of which is true. but you judge a government on whether or not it's improving things, not on whether or not it has perfected the optimal distribution of resources among all human beings in the world. and i think there is that problem of saying, i know the economy is getting better, i know it's good. but if i said it out loud, i sound heartless.

so, i think that's a big part of it. as far as the issue of whether or not people are being served by democracy, remember how low participation rates and things like primaries are. i mean, i've been kind of banging the desk about this for years. that americans say, who keep saddling us with these terrible political choices? ask voters who didn't show up that they don't pay attention to off your elections, which are really important when it comes to things like controlling state legislatures. a lot of voters don't pay attention to anything less than a presidential campaign. every four years, they're kind of shocked that the political system looks the way it does. so, there is that problem as well a voter participation. so, i'm putting a lot of this back on the voters. especially because we're at a point in 2024 that i think back in 2021, or 2021 no one would've imagined that we had made it this far or landed so softly.

or had -- the will be look the way it was. we were predicting a massive economic collapse. or all kinds of dreadful outcomes from the pandemic. now we're in 2024. and we're complaining that growth isn't high enough, inflation isn't falling fast enough. >> micha, tom just talked about the idea that part of the issue is not wanting to tout the accomplishment of the administration for fear of alienating different people or the pushback that could receive. is there any truth to the notion that the democratic party, the tent is too wide, they're trying to peel too broad of a swath of the american electorate? >> i think there is a small bit of truth to that. the bigger issue here is one of michigan. i have applaud the biden campaign for bringing on some of the stronger -- in the country over the last weeks those who work for the michigan democratic party those work with governor gretchen whitmer. there is no reason why this

administration cannot tout its victories. we'll talk about lowering prescription drug prices. retired by fighting for an environment. talk about ensuring that young people have brighter futures. we're talking about working to advance housing legislation that makes housing more affordable. all of these things matter to the american people. and i think this administration has to do a better job of touting those accomplishments, but also, talking about it where the rubber meets the road. you gotta get out there. we know that these battleground states matter. and things are getting tighter in the battleground states. and i say that particular looking at state polling. national polls have proven tried and true -- time and time again, especially as it relates to younger people and people of color specifically black voters. for whatever reason, they tend to not identify those groups and the strength that they should. but when we do know, we state polls are typically almost 100 percent on the mark. we have to pay attention to the state polling. and ensure that the messaging strategy reaches the people of the democrats need to reach. particularly black voters. particular younger voters.

those are the strongest voting blocks for the party. >> ameshia cross, you just talked about this army of surrogates being trotted out by the campaign right now, the biden campaign. my question to you is, is it too late? >> i don't think so. to the point you made in your opening, voters don't typically make those tried in true decisions until later on. the election is in november. we're still nine months out. a lot can happen between now and november. it matters to make sure that you are identifying your targets, but also, that the message meets the people where they are. and i would argue that that needs to happen fast and often. and we need to be hitting those targets. the parties getting those targets every day leading up to the november election. because peoples minds are on paying their bills, making sure their kids are taking care of, a lot of things outside of the noise that we're hearing in d.c.. and i think that what matters the most to them is making sure that the policies that they want to see that change their everyday lives are things that are being held near endure to this administration. and we're giving them a reason to vote for joe biden. a reason to show up. not just a reason to not vote

for donald trump. everyone knows donald trump is a crook. you have to tell here you have two black people. you don't often tell younger people that he is a thug. but with that being said, you've got to tell younger people, you'd have to tell black people what is joe biden doing for me lately. what is he going to do for the next four years? >> there are a lot of pop culture references in that, janet jackson would've done for me lately. to pop, thug life. there's gotta be something about a song about a crook. tom and ameshia cross you can stay with me on the other side the break. as we continue this conversation. you're watching velshi on msnbc. we'll be right back. msnbc. we'll be right back. ♪ ♪ ♪

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♪ ♪ ♪ we're back with tom nichols, staff writer at the atlantic. and ameshia cross, political analyst with siriusxm. tom, you tweeted a quote by jonathon -- a demagogue like trump is only possible in times of either desperation or decadence. what does that statement mean to you? >> i think jonathan got it absolutely right, demagogues emerge when times are incredibly desperate. if you think about hyperinflation and -- germany in the twenties and 30s for example. or when people are affluent and board and adrift, which is what -- wrote about in a wonderful book called the true believers 60 years ago, 70 years ago.

and i think we're in a time of peace, affluence and boredom. and people want politics to be entertaining. and demagogues are entertaining. one of the things that's frustrating about all this we're talking about messaging, and of course, messaging is absolutely right, messaging is part of every good political campaign. but we're talking about this as if people have no memory of donald trump or joe biden as if these are just two new people on the scene, nobody's gonna really focus until summer. because, you know, have we really thought about what donald trump be better for women? then joe biden? would biden be better on climate than donald trump? this is not an election about policy. this is an election about, at least on the republican side, it's about resentment. it's about revenge. it's about getting back at biden in the millions of people who voted for him for humiliating trump and a defeat

in 2020. but donald trump expresses no coherent policy positions whatsoever. that's not a reason that biden shouldn't get out there, obviously, and say, you know, before the american people and say here's what i've been doing for the past three years. but the notion that somehow this is going to be a debate between policies or world views i think is just not accurate. i think the american public, at least half of the american public who seemed to be inclined towards trump want this to be an interesting election that alleviate their boredom and their resentment. >> so, of if what you said is true, what was 2016 after eight years of president obama, was at the time of desperation? or the time of decadence? >> i think of 2016 as a perfect storm. i don't think it was either of those things. i think that you had a whole bunch of things that came together in just a perfect synergy, including the

democrats nominating the other most unpopular politician in america. in the republican field collapsing, all thinking that donald trump would drop out. so no them really attacked him. in trump pulled an inside straight in the electoral college. donald trump has never managed to get a majority of his country. any will again. the real question is whether he can thread the needle and make lightning strike again. i don't think 2016, 2016 was on the verge of being completely normal election. except for the collapse of the republican party. and the democrats i think making a significant error in their nominating process. >> ameshia cross, my friend, i hate to let the cat out of the bag of the country, but i don't know if you've heard, president biden's old. in his age incompetency, they're increasingly becoming

an issue in being called into question. as the special counsel described him as being well meaning but elderly and having a poor memory. that would report has been slammed as partisan in a professional. when i hear, that i think of an old great grandfather sitting on a porch yelling at cars passing by, and handing out nickels and candy to kids during the afternoon. but not of a president. what are your thoughts on the impact that this final report from the special, doj, the special counsel's office, has? >> first off, that it was completely ridiculous. the only thing we should have been coming out of that report understanding was that there are no criminal charges. there is no liability for joe biden. that is the case at hand here. what heard did was insert his own personal opinion and be mindful this is not a doctor, this is not someone who is a neurologist, has no claim to actually be able to assert any of this. other than a political motivation. as someone who also served in the trump administration. this is very frustrating. on multiple notes.

as noted earlier, both candidates are increased in age. but for whatever reason, i want whatever reason, i'll call it the kamala harris effect. call it what it is. calling anything. because kamala harris is a black woman, sitting at a harpoon way for the presidency, there are people who have a significant problem with joe biden's age who somehow do not have that same problem with donald trump's age. which is also advanced. if you're gonna talk about past health, joe biden has had gotten to his 40s. that's not some has come out because of his age. but in addition to, that i think that i took personal issue with what reporters actually said. because they took a stab at joe biden's son. and what we're talking about someone who has lost his son very painfully to cancer, you cannot tell me someone who lost their mother to cancer, someone who watched my own grandmother who did have mental health conditions every single year leading up to the date of my mom's death, not only did she -- but she was in pain, gravitas pain the entire time. you cannot tell me that that's

not something this man remembers. that report was utilized basically to hurt joe biden. and to paint a picture of him, quite frankly, that's not true. we even heard from a public and mitt romney come out and basically the cry that this is a problem. specifically, because he has conversations with joe biden. yes, he's advanced in age. but the man is on point. he knows what he's talking about. he is par for the course, he has an understanding of policy. he is not going anywhere. he is not out to pasture. this was a very disgusting piece by her. >> the intersection of isms in political campaigns in 2008, it was racism in 2016, it was sexism and it would appear that, in 2024, it's ageism. tom nichols enemies are crossed, thank you both for being here. much appreciated. still ahead, today's special edition of the velshi banned book club that highlights black voices. all share some of our favorite moments from those meetings that honored black stories, written by black authors. we'll be right back with more velshi on msnbc. more velshi on msnbc.

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if joe biden is going to beat donald trump in november, motivating black voters will absolutely be critical. but current polling shows that his support among african americans has been slipping. the only way for him to shore up that support is to understand what issues in values are most important to black voters. msnbc correspondent jermaine lee and myself dig into some of those issues in a new msnbc documentary titled black man in america, the road to 2024. we explore the intersection of race, culture, and politics, and offer a candid look at this nation through the eyes of black men, one of the most overlooked voting blocks. black man in america is available to stream right now on peacock. you can also watch it tomorrow again at four pm eastern right here on msnbc. be sure to check it out.

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right now, somewhere in florida or in pennsylvania or in texas, there is a young black reader who will not find a copy of the hate you gift by andy thomas on the shelves of their school library. somewhere else, a young black student won't even realize they're missing what tony

morrison so eloquently penned and all of her work as far as not being a part of the english class syllabus. this is not theoretical, this isn't even a worst-case scenario. this is happening right now as we speak. in the past two years, a censorship in book banning efforts have sprung onto the national stage and a insidious pattern has emerged. book books written by black authors telling black stories are being proportionately disproportionately targeted. but it is the young readers in the students who are paying the price, restricting in removing these important titles. for black and brown readers, they're being robbed of exploring their own identities, and white readers are being cheated out of an opportunity to better understand the experiences and the perspectives of the same kids they sit next to in class each and every day. ali has featured many stores and velshi banned book club, from classics like their eyes were watching god bizarre neil hearst and to contemporary

masterpieces like -- dreaming by jacqueline woodson. all these literary works differ in the writing style in their story arc in character development. what they do is they'll deliberate black identities. the black community and black legacy. each one of them has something unique and critical to teach its reader. since ali is in here today, i would like to share a few of my own favorite moments from various and book club meetings. moments that honor black americans and deliver in an important search. take a look. >> bravery is one of those concepts that feels bigger than it actually is. especially for young people. when you think of superheroes, they might think of that, but sometimes bravery is found in the smallest acts. sometimes it just means stepping out of your comfort zone. sometimes bravery means, yes, i am shaking, i'm trembling, but i'm going to push forward to do what i believe is right.

and i think a lot of times people think that oh, my heroes are people who change history. they weren't afraid. that's not true. i'm sure there are plenty of times where dr. king was terrified, but he kept going. so it's kind of like you were saying earlier. president fast food, but hopefully the reader will cherish it, you know? take their time with it? it's about breaking something down and saying hey, it is not always a big ask. sometimes it is taking one step at a time into doing something that terrifies you but still pushing forward in doing it anyway. >> the -- project is making an argument. it is making an argument about american history, about american origins, about the role of slavery and its legacy. and you can agree with the argument or disagree with the argument. i think that is the purpose of journalism and writing in this way. it's not to simply say, these are my beliefs and everyone has to believe them, but to say that these ideals are worth considering and debating. >> the irony of her work being

banned and libraries, in prisons, and in schools is not lost on us. science fiction is such a powerful tool for social change and for making that more better that octavia management and all of her writing, whether it's a short stories or novels, or her essays where she inspired you us to persevere and to continue. i learned about her work and a slavery literature class in literature in college. and i had no idea that a black woman written in the genre they love so much as a young person. and science fiction, especially the science fiction in the library were critical to my development as a writer, as a reader, and as a thinker, and it is important that we support and fight for these kinds of radical envisioning's of the feature that octavia butler and others have been working so hard to put in the world. >> we want to drive home the point that you don't need to actually know a person to care

about their well-being. that it shouldn't matter that you don't live in ferguson, missouri for you to care about what happened to michael brown. it shouldn't matter that it may never actually touch your doorstep for you to be concerned about the welfare of your brothers and sisters of color out here. it's that simple. >> there's pre tony morrison in post tony morrison, and we want to be clear that she is not the inventor protectionists. she stands in a transition where she is standing on regularly. whether it's invoking ralph ellison or james baldwin, there's so many black women artists we can go through. there's so many that she's in conversation with. but there is a sense in which her insistence that we shift the burden of the white gays. that we don't have to write books that are really all about how white folks see us. we can inhabit our language, we can inhabit kind of cultural spaces that work like oxygen,

that are familiar to us. books that we want to read. and i think that she gives rioters a license to explore the fullness of our community, which means that it's very complex and layered, contradictory. not always everyone agreeing, having the same politics that i think -- and that is really key. because morrison sees us in our individuality and it's fullness as opposed to simply being racking to the current circumstances of our living. >> i grew up in the bushwick section of brooklyn which was really founded by the dutch and a free enslaved person, and when i started learning about that, it meant so much to me as a young person to know that i didn't just come out of nothing, and i think that is what the history books teach us, that we came from somewhere, and i think that is what is trying to be erased.

the other person's place in the world, and the part about long lines of people. so when i got to that part of the book and when i got to that point in my life of understanding that i'm not just -- lives on madison street, and i'm jacqui who is here because of marianne, who is here from georgiana because of the dutch and because of the -- person who helped found the neighborhood i lift in, it meant so much to me to belong. >> laura -- novelists as the time when anyway swath for white, epel and they wrote characters who were exceptional characters who are living under the foot of white racism, and they did that because they want to expose white racism or demonstrate black excellence, but she felt it was important to demonstrate the complexity of black people, the imperfections of black people, and that's actually what makes black people human.

>> there is hope. if i did state with the thesis was on one page 1:52, there were these two lines. you can't change all the people think and act, which earned full control of you. when it comes down to, it the only question that matters is this. if nothing in that world ever changes, what type of person you going to be? and justice connor has to come to that realization that he is in control of how he sees himself and how he sees himself through the world. >> the velshi banned book club has a motto. reading as resistance. but for these books in these offers, it means so much more. you are reading for the future of a country that we all want to live in. you can catch meetings of the velshi banned book club every wednesday on velshi only on msnbc. that is going to do it for me, i'm charles coleman junior, thank you for watching. they'll see him every week and wanting to name to 12 -- i want to thank him for letting me sit in the chair. as always, his team for my job

so