good evening, and welcome to ayman. tonight, missed opportunity. a key question about trump's role on january 6th largely overlooked at this week's 14th amendment hearing. has the supreme court put our democracy on the line. plus, a landslide and el salvador's presidential election. a self proclaimed dictator has. one what it means for strongmen around the globe and especially right here. and if you think reproductive freedom is bad now, just wait until what could be when trump wins. on paul ramos, in for ayman mohyeldin, let's do this. donald trump's battle to stay on the 2024 ballot finally rachel supreme court. thursday, the justices heard arguments in trump the endorsement, a case out of

control of the concerns with the ex president can be excluded from the states primary ballot over his actions on january 6th . brought by voters, the case hinges on section three of the 14th amendment. known as the insurrection clause. we are familiar with this now. it barks officials who swore an oath to the constitution if they engage in insurrection. during to or it was our oral arguments, conservative and liberal justices alike questioned several aspects of the ruling from the colorado supreme court. including whether individual states put disqualify candidates in a national election without first being empowered to do so by congress. the justices also weighed whether the post civil war cause actually bars candidates from holding office, as opposed to running for it. and whether the president is among the officials as to who the provision applies. but largely missing from perth 's argument was an issue at the heart of the case. that is where donald trump because of paid an insurrection.

only one of that nine justices, kentucky projects in, only she as a single question of trump's lawyer, jonathan mitchell, about whether he would admit his clients had in fact engage insurrection. here is some of that exchange. >> for an insurrection, threatening to be an organized, concerted efforts to overthrow the government of the united states through violence. and this riot occurred -- >> so your point is a chaotic effort to overturn the government's -- >> we didn't concede it's an effort to overthrow the government either. none of the criteria were met. this was a riot. it was not an insurrection. -- >> okay, so mitchell may want to have a few words with his client because shortly after oral arguments wrapped up, the ex president contradicted his own lawyers, describing the events on january 6th as a, quote, insurrection. he said. that this isn't just a debate over semantics. the language used here matters a lot because since the january 6th attack, trump and his

supporters have tried to rewrite history. downplaying the events of that day. calling it a peaceful protest. as part of the ruling, the colorado supreme court held trump had engaged in insurrection. however, as far as the supreme court is concerned, with or january 6th constituted an insurrection and with there donald trump is an insurrectionist, or off that remains an open question. the justices failure to properly and thoroughly engaged on the issue is nothing short of a disservice to the american people, especially, especially as we approach such a critical election. in a new piece for time, philip elliott coals what unfolded at our nation's highest court on thursday like watching a counterfactual history. noting that, rather than accept what plainly happened before our eyes, several of the justices seemed all too willing to paint a bold attack on democracy is t something for luis -- by doing so, the supreme court may have just put every democracy in

jeopardy. here to cough our, joyce vance, former u.s. attorney and msnbc legal analyst and also the compost all the sisters in law podcast. ruth ben-ghiat, professor of history at new york university and author of strongmen, mussolini to the present. and mark joseph stern, a senior writer at slate where he covers the supreme court. thanks for joining us. i appreciate it. obviously the consensus is that the court will rule in favor of trump. that seems to be what everyone's saying. but i wonder what were your immediate, initial reactions following thursday. what came to your mind? >> i think that the big takeaway. we didn't know, going into this argument, where we thought the justices would line up. there was some thinking that might be a split along political lines. but it's seemed very clear there were seven, possibly even eight or nine, votes to reinstate trump onto colorado's ballot. interesting question is, what

will they agree on? will they agree only on that result? will they agree on the reasoning that takes them there? there seemed to be some consensus forming around the notion that a single state like colorado shouldn't be able to sit eligibility guidelines for federal candidates. so perhaps they'll be some consensus there. but, you know, as you point out, different questions from different justices. justice jackson certainly was interested in some different issues than some of the others. the same thing happened on the conservative side of the court, with some strong interest there in determining whether or not a president was a qualifying person until this provision of law, which seems a little bit surprising that was treated with so much seriousness. it will be an interesting opinion to look forward to. >> ruth, althea slay throws a strong chance the courts to end up rolling and trump's favor. and there is a very strong chance the courts don't end up, really, taking up the question

which is i believe at the heart of this case. whether or not donald trump engaged in insurrection. what does that say to you about the state of democracy? that's my first question, then ask a follow-up after that. >> it says that this is a product of the affective-ness of the information war that has been waged by the right, which is trying to get even people who were targets of january 6th -- this was directed at lawmakers of both parties. they had to run for their lives. half of them have not had to follow the cult of trump incite is never existed. so what is helped by this? the outcome is it helps everybody who feels that trump is unstoppable and that he's been the target of persecution, that deep state, that all of this is exaggerated. and of course the point of dismissing this is so it can actually happen again more

easily. >> i guess that was my follow- up. you said it yourself. this could potentially happen again more easily. what is to stop donald trump at this point, knowing what went on in the supreme court, what is to stop him from going down the very same exact path if that next election doesn't go his way? >> for those of us who study coups and authoritarian takeovers, he was a failed coup is a rehearsal for a successful coup. and those, they've started very carefully all the things that went wrong. and they intend, in whatever form, another authoritarian takeover comes, whatever it takes to not make those mistakes. it sends a message also there is no bottom. there is nothing trump can do that would be clearly and unanimously consider something to disqualify him from being president and running for president. and this makes the u.s. and outlier to some of the other

countries that have had people staging the coups. when you're in office and try to stay there. most recently in peru, castillo, there is that he started the day as a president and ended the day as a person. because of our countries don't allow their is to just go on and have the person be running for office again. >> mark, is there anything at all from thursday's hearing the khaki by surprise? >> i agree the lack of discussion around insurrection was really disturbing. it is a factual question in part. but also it's a legal question. the 14th amendment uses this term. we know the civil war counted as an insurrection. but there really hasn't been won since january 6th. so the question remains, are we going to just lay this at question mark now moving forward? are we going to let the justices skirt the definition of insurrection and allow, perhaps as you say, a future trump, a future president of a similar bearing to exploit the

ambiguity and say, well, we don't really know what an insurrection is. january 6th probably wasn't one. we are just going to take it on fight i'm not disqualified if i stage one. and i just wanted to understand something going on in the mar-a- lago case right now. recently judge cannon of the government to turn over its witness list to donald trump, a very unusual older suggesting judge cannon doesn't really understand that trump is an echo threat to peoples safety. trump it's an echo threat to those witnesses, to fbi agents, to everyone who is ever been involved in trying to prevent him from committing crimes or becoming president. that case could come up to the supreme court very quickly. and my fear is that a majority of the justices would side with judge cannon and say we don't think he's that dangerous. if they aren't willing to accept the baseline reality set january 6th was an insurrection fomented by donald trump, how can we trust them to enforce

that necessary safeguards in his criminal trials to ensure he does not engage in footnotes intimidation and tampering and wars. i think it's a real concern and i think that our argument only made worse. >> everyone can agree there is still a lot of urgent questions that remain unanswered. and specifically fact about colorado. i'm thinking about the lower 46 colorado voters in this case, joyce. those lawyers are asking the court to issue a ruling by sunday, a day before the state mail's primary ballots. how realistic is this request? they're asking to do this essentially in a couple of hours? >> so we know the court can move quickly when it's of a mind to. and that unknowable here. is the core committed to getting a decision out quickly? these deadlines for sending out ballots, these are real deadlines. there are a number of reasons that they have to be met. it takes a while to print the

ballots, they have to be refuted by folks from all sides of the political environment in order to make sure they're accurate. there are statutory requirements. for, instance you have a statue that controls sending appellate to members of the military away from home, overseas, in war zones. early requirements there. so the court will be well aware of those deadlines that are impinging. but this is all happening so quickly that it's really difficult to imagine that can be done and why that's televise that needs of voters, especially with the super tuesday primaries coming up now in under a month. >> ruth, i'd like to switch gears for a second. obviously, another major case involving trump. on tuesday, right, a federal appeals court rejected trump's a claim of absolute immunity and issued a very forceful role in. it right in part, quote, for the purpose of this criminal case, former president trump

has become citizen trump, with all of the defenses of any other criminal defendant. what do you make of that, so there isn't trump? >> i think i was very heartened when i saw this, not just democracy records but also personality cults. people like trump and putin. one of the principles is that there that many of the papal but they're the man of above all other men. that are the men who are untouchable. they are invincible. and saying very clearly he has the same standards as any other citizen just brought tears to my eyes. because this is the essence of democracy. and it is what authoritarians paid so much and indeed would make them liable to prosecution, which is the thing they for the most. >> mark, trump has until monday to appeal the supreme court. hero me out, i'll give you a hypothetical. we know the supreme court is

highly publicized and we know the supreme court's deal it with a pretty big legitimacy problem. is there a scenario in which the justices could be tempted to issue a pair of lopsided decisions? site 14 and one against the ex president. do you see any sort of calculation a play there? >> i absolutely foresee a grand bargain coming down the pipeline in which the supreme court rules for donald trump in the ballot removal case but rules against donald trump and the absolute immunity case. first of all, that's the kind of compromised decision chief justice john roberts loves to hand down, to create this image of moderation, centrism, to see that were neither for trump or against him. further, i think that liberal justices have a hand to play here. they are very canny strategists. and they lift a lot of their options open during arguments on thursday. i think there's a real possibility, what the tools

that could be on the saints is cited the conservatives, especially the chief justice, look, we agree trump can be removed from the ballot. wilson onto your rationale. but an exchange, we need to dismiss the immunity appeal. we need to refuse to issue a stay. and we need to ensure as quickly as possible the trial for election subversion moves forward quickly before the election. and i think there's a real chance that could happen. and that would be one of the very few ways that threat member liberal minority could really leverage its power and, sort of, exploit the chief justice does the rafah unanimity and a vision of compromise and do well for the country. because as i think our other guest have shown, that immunity argument is totally faithless, it's effortlessly stupid, and the supreme court should dismiss it out of hand. >> joyce vance and mark joseph stern, thank you so much. ruth, you are stuck in a rapid. next, we dig into one more and

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he once called himself the world's coolest dictator. but that didn't deter voters and el salvador from reelecting president -- this week. he won by a landslide with an 85% of the vote. he came to power in 2019. and he slid an enormous crackdown in the region. the impact has been swift. in just four years, el salvador's homicide rate drop from one of latin america's highest to one of its lowest. that seems good, right? but at what cost. since march 2022, the bukele state of emergency suspended basic civil liberties by allowing security forces to forego due process -- roughly 75,000 people have been arrested. that's roughly one in 45 adults

being in person right now. of course, human rights groups have called out these abuses. voters effectively gave bukele the green light. they love him, that voted for him. go back to the number. that 85%. this isn't just an inclination towards authoritarianism. it is enthusiasm. and it's not just limited to congress a vote. look right here. look no further than in the united states. a recent poll, posed this question. it first started with a statement. trump recently said if elected he would be a dictator only on the first day of his second term. the question was, do you think this as a good or bad idea for the country? about 75% off republican respondents said it was definitely or probably good. ruth ben-ghiat is back with me. ruth, i'm so happy to be having this compulsion with you. actually i want to start with something that happened this week. this week you had secretary clinton, she went on msnbc with alex wagner and she told alex, she said, there is this certain

yearning among certain people in the u.s.. for a kind of authoritarian leadership. what do you think is at the root of that yearning and why do you think it feels more pronounced in the united states right now? >> first of, all i wish we didn't have to have this discussion because democracy was in a better shape. but here we are. first thing is that trump, who is a superb propagandist, has actually been conditioning americans for many years and now he's soup it up to think of authoritarians and strongmen as models of leadership. so in his speeches, every time he practically praises shea jinping and putin. they are very fine people, marvelous models, even that leader of north korea. so americans

buying into trump and everything he believes and have been conditioned. more broadly, authoritarians and charismatic demagogues, who when papal feel, they feel unsafe or insecure, or they feel that democracy isn't working for them, and trump targeted these papal by calling him the forgotten. the irony is, he doesn't care about them. but you say this kind of global trained right now where in bukele's case he won reelection and he was responding to people feeling unsafe because of criminal gangs. but in the process, he detained 70,000 people, and who is he sway pin up? the usual suspects and usual enemies of autocrats. human rights defenders, environmental activists, journalists. so this is a pattern. and yet

people go along with it because they feel that a dictator will keep them safe. i alone can fix it, which is trump's version. >> so you think, ruth, that tough on crime rhetoric that bukele had, you think that is the main reason why he continues to be so popular? because has popularity goes beyond el salvador. right? even if you look at polls across latin america, he's one of the most popular it is and the continent. how do you explain his immense popularity? >> he's a showman. and he is, you know, his twitter account used to say he's the coolest dictator. he associative himself with cryptocurrency, everything that's cool. and so this is something, model mussolini pioneer. mussolini was cool. he was a superb communicator. he was great at slogans. and we have mr. chainsaw, javier milei in argentina who has

crazy here and literally had a chainsaw. 145% inflation, so there was a feeling of desperation. he said, i'm going to fix it. i'm going to use my chainsaw. what does he do? he immediately starts criminalizing the right to assemble. yet he's popular as well. so it's very difficult when someone says they're the coolest dictator, it's very difficult to know how to message about them. and there is a whole new cohort of these people. meloni and escalate, who's 4 to 7 years old. the idea is to make people want to take away their own rights and feel good about it. >> you know, there is also a way to hold him accountable. and i think russell gives a perfect example. i know you have been studying this for a long time. last summer, brazil's highest court banned bolsonaro, the

former president very much like trump cast doubts on his country's election results. the court banned him from running for office until 2030. i guess, is they united states equipped to make a decision like that? can we do something like what brazil did? >> it's a very interesting juxtaposition. because brazil as a country that knows the stakes. they hit a coup and then they had a horrible, more than 20 years off, horrible military page up. that's one phrase right after the election and bolsonaro was casting doubt on its integrity, all the forces, all the trucks that people came together and they dealt with the insurrection of january 8th very promptly. they cast a very wide net. they immediately suspended the governor of brasilia, a very powerful figure, apartment two days. and this is key to dealing with autocrats. they didn't just deal with investigating bolsonaro, that

ban him from politics. banning from politics is very important. when they can no longer run for office, their relevance declines and the personally cult start to deflate. we saw this with berlusconi in italy. he didn't have an insurrection but he also was banned from politics. >> ruth ben-ghiat, think you so much. thank you for always starting the alum. i really appreciate it. and after the break, what a second trump term could mean for a woman's right to choose. . but what if you get to it. a key source of your asthma inflammation. enter nucala. it isn't your rescue treatment and it's not a steroid. it's an autoinjector you can do at home. just once a month. nucala targets and reduces eosinophils and helps your symptoms. think less asthma attacks... less need for oral steroids... less asthma-related hospital visits. nucala is a once-monthly add-on injection for severe eosinophilic asthma. nucala is not for sudden breathing problems. allergic reactions can occur.

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therein lies the danger of donald trump. this distance, the silence, this moderate top. that may be working and it's all part of his effort to rewrite history. take this, for instance. despite labeling abortion as a top issue for women in america, most of the participants in a new nbc news focus group said they would back trump over president joe biden in november. and a group of 50 female voters -- only three said they would consider the ex president at least partially responsible for the and overall. this isn't just a phenomenon among voters and pennsylvania. in a recent poll, roughly half of u.s. voters blames the supreme court four new abortion bans or restrictions. one third attributed responsibility either republicans in congress or in state offices. but only 24% blamed donald trump. this isn't just about the trump in the past. it's about what he's not openly telling you. it's about what he could to in

the future, without the help of congress or the courts. using the power of executive action, trump has the ability to chip away piece by pace at the already abysmal state of abortion access in post roe america. no, it's not the kind of one fell swoop we saw after the dobbs decision, but what we could see with a national abortion ban. it's consequences, it's impact could be just as deflating. concert that this report from politico. right now, the heritage fund missions 25 presidential transition project, a sprawling coalition made up of over 100 and abortion and conservative groups, it's in the process of designing far reaching abortion agenda for trump's second term. and drafted executive orders that trump could use -- and implement as early as day one. under a second trump term, federal agencies could be empowered to gain telemedicine for abortion pills. penalize and prosecute virtual clinics that prescribed abortion

pills to states with a ban. federal agencies could stop federal planning funds -- and classified ingredients in abortion pills is so cold forever chemicals, which of course are subject to stricter regulations. they also want to require doctors who prescribe the pill, even for miscarriages, to collect and dispose of the aboard for fetus. but there is more. project 2025 is also pushing trump to enforce a 19th century law known as the comstock act, which could limit access to -- the medical procedure. it could lead to criminal prosecutions about providers and patients. yes, they're also going after medically necessary abortions, calling on trump to rescind biden administration guidance and require hospitals to offer abortions to patients experiencing medical emergencies, regardless of state

bans on the procedure. for many, that can be a matter of life and death. so, do not let donald trump fool you with a so-called moderate toll on abortion. because the second trump term, regardless of the makeup of the congress or the courts, would be disastrous for the future of re- productive rights in this country. come 2025, the man responsible for the fall of roe could go even further. gutting what's left of abortion access in that u.s.. we'll discuss the impact of all of this after a quick break. uick light work! ♪♪ next victims. ♪♪ you ready for this? ♪pump up the jam pump it up♪ ♪♪ lowering bad cholesterol can be hard, even with a statin. diets and exercise add to the struggle. the effort can feel overwhelming.

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before the break, we showed you some pretty terrifying reporting on how donald trump could unilaterally -- abortion access, should he win a second term. here for discuss that and more is dr. uchi blackstock, founder and ceo of advancing health equity and author of the new memorize, legacy. thank you so much for being with me tonight. i really appreciate it. before we get to your book, which, congrats, i know what an effort and what mains to you and your family and your mother of. i want to talk about what we just laid out two or fewer's. should donald trump walk into the white house in 2025, we know that potentially at just abortion pills would be extremely hard. we know the doctors prescribe these pills could be prosecuted. we know very important health

clinics could not be funded. so we know all these things and paper. and of course, what do you think that would mean for people on the ground? i'm thinking about the most vulnerable. what does it mean? >> it's a life or death issue. we know abortion care is health care. a lot of these clinics also provide is to the screening, prenatal care, even cancer screenings. so it really is whole body, hello stickier. and we also know that woman of color, especially black women, disproportionately make up most people who get abortions and this country because of systemic issues. we also not being pregnant is a dangerous situation for black women in this country. black women have 3 to 4 times the maternal mortality than their white peers. so when you look at sections of the country that could be affected by these bands, these are places that are already butternut deserts.

then have one maternity health care provider in arena. by. papal forest to carry babies to delivery, -- in petra mental health, physical health, oh your financial burden. >> i'm also thinking about -- your job, doctors and this country, has been simple. you are here to save lives. pit stretch op. how could this potentially reality impact the job of physicians who are solely here to save us? >> absolutely. what we're seeing already from medical students is there not applying for residency and states with abortion bans. we have seen doctors leave states with abortion bans. so we are making the job so much harder for them. i remember in medical school, on my ob/gyn rotation. i saw my first medical abortion performed in front of me. and what that means to me. i wanted to go into at lucent

medicine at that time. so it's impacting patients but also health professionals -- >> i want to talk about a study that really crystallizes the situation of what post roe america looks like. a recent study, came out a couple of days ago. at front over 64,000 pregnancies from states and abortion bans after roe. what is your reaction to this incredibly stunning number, and can't we say these cases will increase under a trump presidency? >> 64,000, that number, we also probably know that is under reported because ripe is under reported. so that number is probably much much lot than it really is and we can't see if there are increased restrictive policies -- >> i want to talk about legacy. people think these are two topics that are not protected, but they are. because at the end of the day, the people that will suffer most

are women of color. vulnerable communities. you touch on the importance of underscoring the inequities, and the systemic racism that exists in the system. but i want to talk about the nearly -- near death experience you had as a medical student and harvard. you will look in and you are misdiagnosed. >> yes. >> how to that experience impact the rest of your journey? >> i had this experience. for the audience, i had bed abdominal pain. i had to go to the ar three times. by the time i went to the ar, my appendix had ruptured. but during the course of that week, i was questioned about how much pain i was really an. i was questioned about my sexual history. i wasn't being believed. this is not just a case that was me at the time. obviously i thought it was just happening to me. but as i went through my training indicate a practicing physician, recognized from the data this is very common with

black patient and patience of color, we are not listened to, dismissed, ignored by health professionals. that leads to the harlem that leads to complications, and sometimes even death. >> i know you give us a lot of guidance here. i know there are calls to action for your rate is. for our viewers, what's one important step we can all take to really start wrapping our heads around how we end systemic racism and inequities -- >> i think it's a greater understanding of how systemic racism, poverty, other inequities impact health. that when we see someone sick, illness, disease, it's not about someone's individual sessions, bet to solutions someone might. it's a response to a dysfunctional system people live in. so when we think about voting, we are to donate our money, what's happening hyperlocal in a community. we need to think about how -- education, all the things around us we know influence how

people can be -- >> i know, and you talk about this in the book, but i know before your mother, who was terminally ill, before she passed away -- you had a confession with her where you asked her what are some things i should know for the future? things that we won't be able to talk about later. i actually want to ask, what do you think your mother would think about this? >> she was the original blackstock. she would be so proud i wrote this book. but i think we should be so saddens, that in 2024, we are still talking about these racial health and equities and we're seeing even them orson. despite advances and innovations in technology and research. we have to do better as a country. >> i know should be so proud of you. thank you so much. again, her new memoir, legacy, i public position reckons with racism in medicine. it is about. now after the break, how israel

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displaced palestinians are bracing for an eminent israeli ground offensive, after prime minister benjamin netanyahu order an evacuation from rafah, the city in southern gaza where more than 1 million people have sought shelter since october 7th. loving intends, they are exhausted and now preparing to flee again. as the guardian put it, the last refuge and gaza is no longer a refuge. meanwhile, netanyahu has rejected hamas's latest proposal on wednesday that includes a six-week cease-fire and the release of -- hamas for 35 to 40 israel hostages. earlier this week, he called the group delusional. axios reports israel has not totally shut the door. according to israeli officials, israel told qatari and egyptian

mediators on thursday it's open to negotiating based on the original proposal hamas put forward two weeks ago. joining me now to discuss is daniel lady, president of the u.s. middle east project. a former patient negotiator with the israeli government. daniel, thanks for joining me. . at this point, what is the space between israel and hamas and what major gaps remain in the negotiation? >> the gaps are significant. the visit of secretary blinken doesn't seem to have narrowed the significantly. the israeli side has been very clear the government of netanyahu, no cease-fire, no withdraw from gaza, and there have been circumspect about how significant the palestinian prisoner release in exchange for hostages. it seems not of the homicide nor the israeli side are feeling enough attrition, we were there might

be a pressure point, and this is what potentially could shove things. does the biden administration now lean more, if the pressure on the battlefield from israel isn't going to get hamas to change that position, if the threat in rafah doesn't, then what you need is for the israeli negotiating position to be more reasonable. in many places and israel tonight, protests colin ticket hostages out. that will only change if the administration uses leverage. we are not looking for -- that's never been there. and if it comes, it's too late. we need america to use -- >> daniel, i think you froze. essentially what i was going to ask you, or pose to the public, there does seem to be a disconnect. there you are, daniel. you mentioned the biden administration. this idea of whether they will,

or will not, use the power in this moment. and i'm seeing this because there seems to be a disconnect between this private frustration and perhaps even public at this point, that biden has with israel, the negation's we're seeing. how do you make sense of these narratives and both these approaches? >> i think there is a choice. and it's a choice that should have been made a long time ago. now you have rafah. this area that palestinians and gaza have been told, move to one place, move to the next place, jabalia, khan yunis, rafah. 1.4 million people. the combination of the devastation, the number of thousands of children killed. the displacement, starvation. that regional escalation -- the global hit to america.

the combination of those things should have been enough to get the u.s. to use its leverage, because it hasn't been doing that. now what seems to be having more impact than the health state and gaza is domestic pulling. and michigan and elsewhere. is that going to be enough to budge the biden administration? because of it want to and from people that if america clustering is the same tomorrow. but if the administration is willing to strike down the israeli government, use what it has at its disposable, that's -- will america use its veto again on i pray 26? the international court of justice, after the south african appeal, we'll hear at the israelis on eight updated lunch implement provisional measures. will the biden administration bake israel or back the international court? citing israel is in violation and push israel. because even if the administration is willing to

stir down netanyahu, you will see a shift inside israel. it might take a bit of time -- but that's where we are stuck right now. and you know what? when secretary blinken went on his first visit after the horrors of october seven, he said i came here as a jew. on his second visit, i think it was his time to say he, i come here is an american. a compare is a human. and you know what, that would be the jewish thing to do as well, i would argue. and to bring us on and ends. focus on the cease-fire. don't focus on the saudi deal, they are trying to get this normalization. but if you focus on the cease- fire, that's the vulnerability on the israeli side. that's where we need to be. >> you talk about focusing on the seas for. that reality is, we might be just hours away from an assault on rafah. a city that has a one -- was once doesn't had a place of refuge, a safe place. we may be about to see more defecting images on our

screens. so how do you think those attacks will end a fear, or not, with the negotiation process? >> there was some speculation this is an attempt on the israeli side to get leverage to the negotiations. adrian think that's going to shift the dynamic. i think netanyahu is ready to go with rafah. we're already seeing more and more civilians killed there. we shouldn't forget israel has talked about forcibly displacement the palestinian population across the egyptian border. rafah is the border town. we have to be caucus and that might be the push. so, this is the time, i think, 1.4 million people in rafah. this is a time to use every lever at once disposal. because if rafah now happens and things will get exponentially even worse. so the idea that the israeli side will somehow caused the collapse of hamas, it's magical thinking.

there is been resilience on that side. it's not going to be the way this plays out. >> sorry, go ahead, finish. >> i hope that when people look at this they say maybe that variable dynamic here is this concern in the administration for their own domestic, political interest. because that suggests, i think to your public, we're the pressure need to be. >> daniel, thank you so much for joining me tonight and walk us through this. i really appreciate it. >> thank you, paola. >> up next, another hour of ayman in just a couple of minutes. uple of minutes.

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