>> reporter: good morning. it is sunday, february 11th. and you are watching velshi on msnbc. i'm charles coleman junior,

filling in for my friend and colleague, ali velshi, and we've got a lot to talk about. we begin this hour with a task. you've got a lot of clues last week about what is likely to happen next, and at least some of the trials of donald trump. we are going to use those clues to make sense of some of the unprecedented and unpredictable political work around us. from the legal repercussions of the 14th amendment case of the supreme court, to the political and other consequences that any one of trump's criminal case is going to trial before election day could bring. here we have a twice impeached ex president who's running a rematch campaign at the same time that he's also mounting a monthly front criminal defense. all of this makes for a very high stakes, real life, choose your own adventure novel. i used to love those things as a kid. and now if trump makes the wrong choice, or he skips to page 73, he could find himself in a courtroom facing down jackson its election interference case before

november, like walking into the room and finding the fiery dragon. or the fulton county election interference case could also be waiting for him. or, the stormy daniels hush money trial, or even the classified documents case. but if he chooses carefully, he ends up safe. if he delays this, he could stick to page 92 and find another shot at the presidency, and a chance to stack the government with loyalists, and dish out advantage to his political enemies. the latest polling by nbc news show trump being biden 47% to 42% in a hypothetical matchup. but it does appear that there would be a sector to change their minds if trump was convicted of a felony before election day. when you consider that not-so- in significant variable added to the mix, a trump conviction pushes biden ahead narrowly. it is worth noting that both these results are still within the margin of error.

but donald trump knows which adventure to choose every time, it seems like. it is the slow one, that really takes its time. as much time as it can be. he is going to do everything he can, everything in his power to delay every criminal child he's facing for as long as he can. hopefully until after election day. trump's legal team is likely to file an appeal in from the supreme court by tomorrow regarding his presidential immunity claims. and doing so is going to mean that this federal election interference case, which many believe is his most consequential one, is going to be further delayed. that trial is going to last by most peoples estimations between two and three months. and the longer it stays paused, the more likely becomes that this year's october supply could actually be a jury verdict coming out of d.c.. listen, his strategy is not a secret. the match is set. the plot continues to thicken. but this is hardly a mystery of

odds. what happens next in this cliff- hanger, in this page turner, quite literally, could shake the future for our nation. not just for the next four years, but indefinitely for longer. joining me now is matt zingelmann. he is a fellow at the constitutional law center at stanford law, and a cult author of the upcoming how to steal a presidential election, which shells on tuesday, and ruth ben- ghiat, professor of history at nyu and author of strongmen. from mussolini to the president. matt, i would like to start the conversation with you about the 14th amendment. you agree with supreme court watchers when you say that the court basically looks like it is going to hand donald trump a victory in this case. but you also say that there could be a silver lining for jack smith's election interference case. could you please explain that, what do you mean? >> that's right. thank you for having me. it seems absolutely clear that the supreme court is going to

reject the attempt to bar former president trump from the ballot on the basis of his disqualification as an insurrectionist. but, critically, the basis of his decision based on of the oral arguments, on thursday will not be that he did not gauge an insurrection. they are going to rule, most likely, that states don't have the power to do that, that has to be congress that takes him off the ballot. but what that leaves open is whether he engaged in insurrection. and that is the key critical issue in the d.c. election subversion case from jack smith. >> reporter: ruth, the 14th amendment argument saying there, that was always going to be an extreme measure for donald trump. but, if you think about the actions that led to that, everything on january 6th, that was also extreme. there were people who died. his supporters stormed the capitol. they chanted about literally hanging the vice president of the united states of america. you are someone who has done a deep dive on extremism, on

strong language and what that means for political discourse. how do we, as a nation, insulate ourselves and protect ourselves for what can result, if you will not use the protections that seemed to already exist against these sorts of extreme measures? >> it is tragic. because it plays into everything that donald trump is about. authoritarianism is, at its essence, about removing restraints on bad actors. allowing the leader and his enablers to get away with any kind of crimes. and, so, this is sending a message to everyone who doubts our justice system, the idea that there is doubt whether being inside an insurrection. it plays into the information warfare tactic that the january 6th really happen, other than as a riot? did people really die. all of this is important.

and you liken this to a novel, and indeed, unfortunately, so far, there is legal battle, and there's the information war. and it seems that trump is winning that. both from the polls, the more openly dictatorial he becomes, the more threatening he becomes, the more he is lionized by the press, mainstream press, not just fox news. and he is lionized by his devotees, in and out of congress. >> reporter: ruth, one of the things that we've been talking about is a poll that suggests that a conviction could change the mind and swayed certain voters. putting aside the notion that they would need an actual conviction to make that determination, i wonder, does that statistic -- the fact that people will say, if he is convicted, then that could change my vote. does that give you some sort of sense that the public, or part of the electorate is changing its mind, or at least seeing that, hey, we could be headed to a particularly bad place?

>> it does. and i want to say that the behavior of trump's, his lawyers, gop enablers in court and in congress, it is all designed to delegitimized democratic justice. to show open scoring and content for those professional ethics. think of justice thomas refusing to refuse himself, it is scorning attempt. so it is interesting. the polls that show that you've action could be different. it shows that americans still have faith in the weight of the justice system, that a conviction would mean something. and in other countries, either bans or convictions of bad actors do mean something. in italy, after moscone was convicted two years after he left office, his party popularity plummeted and his personality deflated. and in brazil -- was disqualified by being banned

from office after his january 8th insurrection. so they can no longer be relevant on the national stage. conviction is absolutely key to all of this. >> reporter: matt. i would like to have lawyer talk quickly. you were council for one of the entities that filed this brief in the d.c. circuit court of appeals immunity case. and you got a pretty good win from that. can you talk to our audiences about the significance of that going forward, not just for donald trump, but generally speaking, were there any other takeaways that you got from that opinion that you feel have larger implications around protecting our government and our citizens? >> yes. it is an enormously consequential decision. it is tightly increased, and i think it will hold up on appeal in the supreme court, if the supreme court even decides to take the case. and it is critically important for the general principle that we are all people under the law. it is important to recognize just how radical former

president trump's position is, and oral argument. judge pen asked a hypothetical -- would former president trump had been excused from criminal prosecution if he had ordered s.e.a.l. team six to assassinate his political rivals? and the answer, from trump's lawyer, was yes. and we need to pause and think about what that would mean for american society, if a president was completely immune from any kind of criminal accountability no matter what he did. including assassinations. that is the robot trump and his lawyers want to go down. and i think it is heartening in these really challenging times, that the humanity service suggested that. and it is not just by appointees, it is also republican appointees, judge henderson, who is a quite conservative judge, joins the unanimous opinion for the court. and i expect the supreme court will suggest the opinion as well. >> reporter: matt, i tundra to. i think that that is going to even be touched by the supreme

court. i'm actually betting my smart money that it won't. i think we have this sort of scale that we want to deal with, like matt which is talking about. you have this great opinion, this type, the very well reason opinion that came out of the court of appeals in d.c., that basically strikes down this notion of an immunity claim. and then, on the other hand, you have what many are anticipating to be a supreme court case and opinion, that more or less allows trump to go on the ballot. in terms of how you saw the autocrats, and dictators, and strongmen, if you will. where does the balance fall in terms of, does this -- do we see a stronger, more emboldened donald trump emerged depending on which way the scale tilts? or someone who's the leader or beleaguered in battle? >> -- >> again, there's a legal battle, and there's the information warfare battle. and trump will take any

opportunity that shows that his claims might, indeed have the ability to hold water. to keep his personality cult going, saying he is invincible, he can do whatever he wants. his last speech, he is now saying the speech about nato, and that putin could do whatever the hell he wants. this is the fantasy of the autocrat to get into power or get back into power, arrange governments so you can do anything in pain ocon sequences. and a supreme court that does not be very vehement, in upholding democracy and saying, there are restraints on the leader. there have to be. that is a supreme court that is not, in the end, asking as a friend to democracy. >> reporter: to my guests, thank you both for being here.

coming up. we are going to talk to democratic representative seth moulton about the only congressional funding fight about the war in ukraine and a lot more. but first, we are going to head to israel for the latest on the war in gaza and as the israeli military prepares an assault on the southern city of rafah. i am charles coleman junior, in this is next, on velshi. on vel. so when my windshield cracked, it had to be fixed right. i scheduled with safelite autoglass. their experts replaced my windshield and recalibrated my car's advanced safety system. ♪ acoustic rock music ♪ >> woman: safelite is the one i trust. they focus on safety so i can focus on this view. >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪ here's to getting better with age. here's to beating these two every thursday. help fuel today with boost high protein, complete nutrition you need...

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>> reporter: today, fear continues to spread throughout the city of rafah, located in southern gaza. since october, rafah has become a makeshift home for roughly 1.4 million palestinians displaced by the war. many were forced by the israeli government to flee their homes in northern gaza, and go to rafah, where human rights groups have set up refugee camps and take cities. but now, rafah is the target of an israeli ground assault, on friday, israeli prime minister

benjamin netanyahu asked the israeli military to destroy hamas in rafah and evacuate civilians. the u.s., the united nations, in several human rights groups have all warned israel at such an attack would be a humanitarian disaster. it is unclear whether gazans in rafah would go, but this morning, israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu told nbc news that israel is working on a, quote, detailed plan to evacuate palestinians. >> the areas that we've cleared north of rafah are plenty good there. and we're working on a detailed plan to do so. and that is what we've done up to now. we are not cavalier about this. this is part of our war effort, to get civilians out of harm's way. >> reporter: just now, moments ago, a white house official told nbc news that president biden will be speaking with prime minister netanyahu later today, days after biden called israel's war effort, quote,

over the top. joining me now from jerusalem is nbc news foreign correspondent matt bradley. matt, good morning to you or get evening over there. what are palestinians in rafah saying about the possibility of a ground assault. >> in short, charles, they are terrified. as you mentioned, many of these people have been displaced not once but two, three, four, times. more than half the population of the gaza strip is currently in gaza, right now. and as you said, they really have nowhere else to go. but it's not just that. they don't want to go. they are fearful of a repeat of history. of the nakba, arabic for catastrophe. the violent and for civil dispersion of the population of the palestinians from their homes all throughout what is now israel and the palestinian territories, so they're worried about palestinian history repeating. that was a seminal moment in the middle east. it was the root of the conflict as we know it now. and it's one of the reasons why the egyptians and other neighbors of the israelis also

don't want to accept these palestinians. not because they don't want them, because they're worried that they will create parts on the ground. we'll be permanently displaced, just like they were in the [speaking in a global language] and they won't be allowed to go back. our team on the ground have been risking their lives. i say that sincerely, for the past several months, trying to get this information and footage from gaza, and here is our report from last night. >> reporter: a refuge waits for war. israel has said it's about to turn its guns on rafah, the city in the southern gaza strip, where previously, many in gaza had been told to flee for safety. >> you said this is going to be a safe place. how many times did you lie to us about, this place it being safe, and then turning back, and bombing us. >> reporter: now, among more than 1 million here, sphere is spreading, along with starvation, and disease. >> we've been hearing that they want to come to rafah, just like every city and gaza. and we are so scared, we don't

know where to go. >> reporter: israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu ordered his military to prepare a plan to evacuate civilians here, and destroy what's left of hamas, calling rafah a last bastion for the terrorist group. >> rafah is two streets, if they bond one of them, thousands of people will die, and we might be one of them. >> reporter: the satellite images show how sprawling city has expanded over rough as bored with egypt. israel's bombardment of rafah began two weeks ago, a preview of the horrors that my away the displaced people here, dozens have already been killed. the u.n., sounding the alarm. >> we are extremely worried about the fetus affiliates in rafah. >> it is nearly impossible for us to protect them from tank fire, from artillery shells. >> reporter: this week, president biden voiced where disagreement over israel's attacks on gaza. >> the conduct of the response

in the gaza strip has been over the top. >> reporter: so, charles, you can hear that despair and hopelessness. it's not just humanitarians that are warning about a humanitarian disaster that is going to unfold in rafah, it is also now the egyptians. they've said that if the israelis turned their guns on rafah, on that last, remaining refuge for these people, then they might cancel the peace treaty that was the foundation of peace in the middle east. israel and egypt had -- egypt was the first country to have a peace treaty with israel. its first neighbor. and it really was, if this happens, it can reset the balance of power. charles? >> reporter: that was nbc's matt bradley in jerusalem, thank you. up next, i'll be joined by democratic congressman and member of the house armed services committee, seth moulton. we will get his thoughts on the israel gaza war, and his reaction to prime minister

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every epic footlong deserves the perfect sidekick. >> reporter: welcome back to velshi, on msnbc. i'm charles coleman junior, in for ali today. and i'm in with a rare sight from washington. u.s. senators are working through the weekend. now, in just under two hours. the senate is set to hold a procedural vote on a 95 billion dollars for an aid package for ukraine, israel, and taiwan. but this package will not include any measures on border security. remember, republicans initially demanded that any aid to ukraine be tied to aid from the southern border. but after donald trump put his thumb on the scale, the same republicans killed the agreement that they have worked on for weeks. and now, as the senate debates the aid package, there's no guarantee that if it passes, it

would even get a vote in the house of representatives, how speaker mike johnson has not yet committed to it. the republican reversal on the border bill that is filled with concessions from democrats as shocked capitol hill veterans like connecticut senator, chris murphy, who helped negotiate the bill on behalf of democrats. quote, i've never seen in about- face like this in the 20 plus years i've been in politics. joining me now is democratic congressman seth moulton. he represents the sixth addition of massachusetts. he is a veteran of the u.s. marines who served four tours in iraq, and he is also a member of the house of services committee. congressman, thank you for being here. i want to talk about what we were just discussing in this last part, and that is the hamas israel war. for months, israel's military as been pushing gazan south to rafah, further and further south. telling people that that was where it was safe to be. and now, those same civilians are being made to evacuate

rafah almost with nowhere to go. as israel plans a ground assault, do you have any confidence that this evacuation can be done humanely, or is it going to result in a bloodshed? is it going to be the humanitarian crisis that everyone else seems to be knowing that is coming? >> well, israel is clearly trying to do things to prevent a further humanitarian crisis. but the sad reality is, based on the experience thus far in the war, i think i can say with confidence that's not going to go that well. that they are going to be more needless civilian casualties. and what's important to understand here is that i'm someone who strongly believe that israel has a right to defend itself. that we need to get rid of hamas, that having hamas around is not the interest of the israelis or the palestinians. but the way israel is conducting this war, they are not winning against hamas. when you're in a counter insurgency campaign like this, you can't just kill terrorists, because you have to be aware that you might kill a terrorist, and at the same

time, his brother might sign up. and we know based on just facts, based on statistics, that there is more support for hamas now in gaza, more support for hamas in the west bank, and indeed, more support for hamas in the arab world than there was before october 7th. that is not a good sign for israel's success. >> reporter: i want to go from middle east to capitol hill, where you are working each and every day. what do you make of the dysfunction that we're seeing among our public and colleagues. i mean, ultimately, you are someone who, because you've been on the frontlines, so you've served our country with respect to your military experience, and you continue to service as legislator. is there a concern about this ineptitude in and around congress impacting optional security? >> absolutely. this level of chaos, and as you said, total ineptitude. absolutely it puts our national security at risk. and we need to understand that

a lot of americans are tired of playing politics with everything. they want leaders in washington to do the right thing. they can't, fundamentally, to do the right thing for our country. and for our security. it is a dangerous world out there, and we need to make america safer. and yet, with these republicans are doing is they play politics with the border. they're playing politics with israel. they're playing politics with ukraine. these things are important for national security. they are not things that you should play politics with. that is what the republicans have been doing for day one. that is why they're inconsistent, they're all over the map, we don't even know what they plan to do at this point. >> reporter: you mentioned israel. i know we've moved on, but i do have another question there. i want to play something that prime minister benjamin netanyahu told abc earlier today about the potential of tuesday solution. take a listen. >> the substance, i've always said, in a future peace agreement, which everyone agrees is far off. i think the palestinians have the powers to govern

themselves, but none of the powers to threaten israel. in the most important power that has to remain in israel's hands is overriding security control, in the area west of the jordan. >> reporter: we were just talking about politics being played around that, and so many other things. when you hear something like that, does that give you any confidence in the ongoing negotiations that the war has a potential end to a debt any of us can see? >> i don't think we can see the end of the war because the prime minister can't say with that is. he can't describe what the political endgame is. in fact, the best solution that most of us can come up with is a two-state solution, and prime minister netanyahu has flatly rejected that. it is important to say that a lot of people in israel disagree with prime minister netanyahu. he has the worst approval ratings of just about any of jusn prime minister in history right now, so there's a lot of israeli leaders who do believe in a two state solution, who

recognize that israel is never going to be safe if palestinians are not free, and that security for everybody in the middle east does not depend on getting rid of hamas. but also having a legitimate palestinian government that can give the palestinian people the same rights as israelis have. so if that is the vision, it is not being articulated by prime minister netanyahu at all. we need to see some leadership and vision from the israelis to show the israeli troops fighting, risking their lives on the ground, and the palestinian civilians, with a peaceful future can actually look like. so that everybody can get behind it. >> reporter: that was democratic representative seth moulton of massachusetts, thank you very much for joining us on this sunday, enjoy the rest of your day. still ahead, the latest in the long running effort to got the landmark voting rights act is likely going to head to the high court. i'll explain next, on velshi.

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>> reporter: welcome back to velshi, on msnbc. how i'm charles coleman junior. i'm in for ali today. you can hear me talk a lot about this until the campaign calls me, or tells me to shut up. motivating black voters will be critical to the 2024 presidential election, specifically for president joe biden. current polling shows that the support among african americans has been slipping. the only way that he's gonna show that support is to understand what issues and values are most important to black voters. msnbc correspondent tremaine lee and myself dig in to that in a new embassy documentary called, black america, the road to 2024. in, it weeks for the intersection of race, culture, and politics, and we offer a candid look at the country through the eyes of black men who are one of the most overlooked voting blocks.

black men in america is available to stream right now on peacock, but you can also watch it tonight at four pm eastern, right here, on msnbc, right before the super bowl. be sure to check it out. we'll be right back with more velshi. stay tuned. velshi. stay tuned. with nurtec odt i can treat and prevent my migraine attacks all in one. don't take if allergic to nurtec. allergic reactions can occur even days after using. most common side effects were nausea, indigestion and stomach pain. talk to your doctor about nurtec today. there's nothing better than a subway series footlong. except when you add on an all new footlong sidekick. we're talking a $2 footlong churro. $3 footlong pretzel and a five dollar footlong cookie. every epic footlong deserves the perfect sidekick. order one with your favorite subway series sub today. looking for a bladder leak pad that keeps you dry? all of the things that you're looking for in a pad, that is always discreet. look at how it absorbs all of the liquid. and locking it right on in! you feel no wetness. - oh my gosh! - totally absorbed! i got to get some always discreet!

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>> reporter: the voting rights act is one of our nation's most vital and precious pieces of legislation. trust me, i'm a civil rights attorney, i can tell you this. born out of the civil rights era, the voting rights act allows discriminatory voting practices adopted in many southern states, and it defends the political power of black americans. for decades, lawmakers have attempted to chip away at crucial and critical pieces of this law. and it was only met her time for the voting rights act was once again under attack. back in november, three judge

panel from the federal appeals court ruled that private citizens and civil rights groups cannot bring lawsuits under section two of the voting rights act. section two, one explains for people who may not understand, it imposes a permanent nationwide ban on racial discrimination, in election voting laws. but this ruling means that private organizations like the naacp, the aclu, and the lawyers committee on civil rights, and so many more that have been fighting the good fight to protect the rights of voters cannot take legal action against discriminatory policies and practices. it leaves it to the government, allowing only the u.s. attorney general to be able to do that. what that does is essentially renders section two useless. and since that november ruling, the aclu has appealed the decision urging the full eighth circuit court of appeals to hear the case. recently, the eighth circuit court of appeals denied that request, and we will not revisit the ruling. now, according to a statement

from the aclu, the group, is quote, exploring the next liebel steps, and that could likely involve an appeal to the supreme court. joining me now is doug jones, former democratic senator, representative of the state of alabama, also the former u.s. attorney for the northern district of alabama and my friend and colleague, msnbc legal analyst, legal professor, melissa murray, and super lawyer, who is also here to break all of this down. senator jones, alabama is one of the states where the fight for our rights, the fight for voting rights, all of that back in the 60s was rooted in your home state. what is your reaction to this news around section two, basically being done in the eighth circuit? >> i'm really concerned about this case, charles. you know, not only was alabama kind of ground zero for so many of the cases, even as late as

last year, alabama had an important voting rights act case, in which the court upheld a decision found the legislator and founded in congressional districts. this is incredibly significant, because if the supreme court, who as you know, has been somewhat antagonistic to voting rights cases in general, decides in favor of this opinion, it will effectively accomplish, what many, many, on the far-right have been wanted to do for years, and that is effectively get away from the enforcement of the voting rights act completely, leaving it to the justice department, with scarce resources, and the ability of, congress to really, pull those resources away from them, if they want to do it, i just, think it would be a horrible outcome, and inconsistent with the history of the voting rights act, and congressional intent. >> reporter: professor murray, amid take my glasses off and

talk to a lawyer here, you're the one who's going to be on this panel, our constitutional scholar, so we have, and senator jones was just talking about the supreme court, i liken this to the ghost of shelby, in referring to shelby versus holden, in terms of what remains of the voting rights. can you take us in our audience, not only to, from shelby to where we are now just to basically explain to them what is left after you've gutted section five, you've got it section two, now, where do we have left, and then what does that look like for the future? >> i'm happy to do so, charles. as senator jones said. this is a long running campaign to gut and hobbled the voting rights act that landmark legislation. it really began in 2013, with the decision of shelby county, where the court essentially struck down the formula with the player clearance regime. it is a regime under which states that had a history of. suppressive voter laws had to first pass or a clear any change in their voter registration, their voter

suppression laws. any kind of law dealing with the department of justice, or three federal judge panel. when that was dismantled, it meant that states didn't have to go through parents, they could pass their suppressive voting laws, and the only available tool to challenge those with section two of the voting rights act, which is litigations, it's section to authorize litigation. it was never going to be as effective as clearance, because it allows the laws to go into effect, and then they are challenged through litigation. and of course, litigation can be very difficult and expensive to mount. so there are challenges for litigants who want to protect their voting rights. but here, this new challenge to section two, and it has been challenged repeatedly since shelby county versus holder, so it hasn't been a sort of pristine model for people to use to protect their voting rights. but in this particular challenge, it is a real problem. because this challenge is rooted in some language that justice thomas issued in his dissent from last year's holding in allen versus milligan, which was hailed as a victory for voting rights,

that's where the court said that the alabama maps were a racial gerrymander and in permissible. justice thomas, in his dissent, said he thought that there was no private cause of action in section two of the voting rights act that would allow private groups like the naacp, for example, to sue. instead, he said, section two could only be enforced by actual government agents. so department of justice and senator jones noted, there's so many disincentives for government agents to enforce this act, because it is basically something that can be shifted from administration to administration and priorities too, so it's really incumbent on individual plaintiffs to bring these actions, and again, as one of the judges of dissent in this case said. most of the successful voting right claims andra needy two of them, have been brought. and only 15 have actually been brought by government agents. most have been brought by private parties. so this is huge.

>> reporter: senator jones, when you think about what's left of section two, really quickly, can you explain the difference between, for example, what it looks like under a jeff sessions doj, having to make those decisions, versus a mayor garland, and how stark that contrast could be, and what harm that does for voters? >> you are essentially saying what is the difference when you look outside at night and day. because that is exactly what it would be. the bright sunshine of doj under a merrick garland, or a bill clinton doj versus the darkness and civil rights under a jeff sessions doj. and i want to remind folks, following up on what alyssa was talking about in terms of the history. as soon as the shelby county versus coleman decision was rendered, it was states like alabama and others just racing to an act legislation that would got the voting rights act, that would not bring people access to vote. you will see that again, and

they will be very little way to enforce it if they do that. >> reporter: former senator doug jones and professor melissa murray, these guys are so amazing that i will ask them to stick around for another panel. stay tuned, there is more velshi to come right after this. after this. all parts working in sync to move your business forward. with a streamlined shipping network. and new, high-speed processing and delivery centers. for more value. more reliability. and more on-time deliveries. the united states postal service is built for how you business. and how you business is with simple, affordable and reliable shipping. usps ground advantage. with nurtec odt, i can treat a migraine when it strikes and prevent migraine attacks, all in one. don't take if allergic to nurtec. allergic reactions can occur, even days after using. most common side effects were nausea, indigestion, and stomach pain. ask about nurtec odt. ♪ ♪

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a common sense solution that ensures we use community safety cameras to catch repeat offenders and hold them accountable. vote yes on e. not all christian mccaffrey's are the same. some are all-pro running backs. some aren't. i'm christian mccaffrey and i make tacos. just like not all internet providers are the same. don't settle for slow. yikes. or unreliable. that's going to leave a mark. or weak. get real deal speed, reliability and power with xfinity. hey, you okay? i'm gonna pass out if that's alright. get the real deal, get xfinity. >> reporter: welcome back. back with me now is doug jones, former democratic senator representing the state of

alabama, and also, the former u.s. attorney for the northern district of alabama, as well as professor melissa murray. msnbc legal analyst and professor of law and why you. senator jones, i want to ask you. it seems like, with respect to this eighth circuit decision and everything we're seeing, that there is a really deliberate push by conservative courts to try and push as many controversial cases in front of the supreme court, which as we know, now enjoys a conservative super majority. if that effort is as intentional as it appears, and if so, what does that say about where we are headed? >> you know, charles, it's a great question, and it appears to me that it is intentional. i think you saw after amy coney barrett got on the supreme court, that there was an accelerated effort to get all of these cases, whether it is the abortion cases, whether it is voting rights cases, in front of this court. because they know that there is

a chance that voting bloc will not last forever. and they want to get as many cases as in the end. so, in some respect, quite frankly, i think that what we're seeing, we're seeing an erosion of confidence in our judiciary for that very reason. it's a purely political and blatantly political, what seems to be going on these days. and it's really unfortunate. because i do think it undermines confidence in our system. >> reporter: melissa, very few people who are not attorneys understand how much law clerks have it insight into their thinking in minds of justices. is there anything that you have read, in any of the opinions that have come out regarding the v are a that suggested there may be a pathway to preservation? is there any sort of roadmap that you could think of or line of reasoning that you feel like has not been utilized, that might exist to protect it, as it continues to be under attack? >> you're asking me to do a yeoman's job, charles, to

salvage what a supreme court supermajority is doing. but i think senator jones is exactly right. it is not simply that lower courts of appeals that is pushing more extreme versions of these, is not that they're being invited to do so, when i spoke about justice thomas, and his dissent in allen versus milligan, and how he essentially argue that there was no private right of an action to enforce this section two of the voting rights act, that was an invitation to litigation. that was an indication for clients to file claims, and basically use this as a challenge to the voting rights act, and it was an invitation to lower court judges to endorse that view, knowing that would likely find a receptive home at the supreme court. so if you want a silver lining in all of this, and you think you really have to look to presidential politics, what is at stake in this next election is not simply the kinds of domestic or foreign policy agenda items that we are talking about today, but the supreme court itself. if you are concerned about this conservative 63 supermajority, if there is a republican president, any republican

president, it is very likely that some of the justices on the republican side, the conservative side, like justice alito, justice thomas, who are in their 70s, will step down. and their seats will be filled by republican president who will fill those seats with much younger judges, making that super majority last even longer than it already is going to last. >> reporter: senator jones, when you talk about section two, and the fact that it's really been done away with the fact that it has, what does that mean in terms of the future confirmation, our future attorney generals, and how much will their willingness to litigate cases on behalf of aggrieved individuals pertaining to the voting rights act become a part of considering a new a.g., confirming a new age in the senate, for example. how much of that now factors into the political discussion? >> it already factors into it, but i think it will become much more prominent. melissa talked about the fact that it would be, it should be

front and center in presidential politics. but it needs to be front and center in senatorial politics as well. because remember, years ago, they did away with having a filibuster for the administration nominees. that means that just 51 senators can confirm any nominee, and that, therefore, a republican president, if he has control of the senate, where he or she has control of the u.s. senate, they can get those nominees confirmed regardless. i think that would be thrilled, i think it would be very, very focal point for both sides. i think republicans won't bend to not enforce voting rights act, and certainly democrats will want to promise to vigorously enforce. it will be front and center for any a.g. confirmation, as it would for the voting rights subsection seat, as it would for the deputy attorney general, and just about every hump nominee higher up into the doj. >> melissa i've, got 60

seconds. can you lay plane, when you are talking about the voting rights act in the significance that it has, particularly for the impact of black voters, what that looks like, and what a big deal this is? not only to such a monumental piece of legislation, but at a time such as this? >> i think chief justice john roberts said it best in his majority opinion, in shelby county versus holder, he talked about the fact that the voting rights act was responsible for ushering in new waves of minority voters, and in his view, that suggested that the voting rights were at work at some of its provisions, like some of the provisions requiring preclearance with a history of voter suppression, who are no longer necessary. justice ruth bader ginsburg in dissent said that kind of logic was like throwing out your umbrella in a rainstorm, because you aren't getting wet. that's the logic of the voting rights act. it does pave a way for minorities to play a more participatory role in our democracy, and that is part of the reason why is under attack. >> reporter: the good professor melissa murray said it was a yeoman's task, we both handled

it like it was light work. so thank you to you both. former senator doug jones and melissa murray, appreciate you. that is going to do it for me. i am charles coleman junior, you've been watching velshi, on msnbc. ali will be back next weekend, and make sure you catch him on velshi every weekend from 10 am to 12 noon. now i don't know whether you've got a sure on his 50s or kansas city, or san francisco, or whatever you do. enjoy the rest of your day. stay where you are, inside with jen psaki begins right now. >> reporter: okay, if you felt this week was a whole year, i'm here to tell you you are not alone, on thursday, the supreme court heard oral arguments on donald trump's ballot eligibility under the 14th amendment. and the ball is going to be back on your court tomorrow as trump prepar