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hello, new york. thank you for joining us live at town hall in new york city for the special edition of why is this happening. he's incisive. he is big hearted, he's very, very smart. admit it, he is taller than you expected. give a warm welcome to my friend, my beloved colleague, chris hayes. [applause] >> >> thank you. . stop it.

how are you? good. thanks, thank you, thank you, thank you. sit down. thank you, it's extremely kind. i hate attention and positive feedback. it's a very hard 20 seconds for me. thanks for cutting it short. le pen fits very amazing to be here in my hometown of new york city. i've got my family here. tonight we are going to talk about democracy. that word, we have probably talked more about democracy in the last four or five years that i had talked about all of my time as a journalist before that. even that as a topic seems very weird. america's a democracy, and there is a certain kind of

history that we are taught as a part of the mystery civic culture totally. even civic religion. it roughly goes the following. the founders rebelled against the tyranny of the crown. the injustice of monarchy. they conceived in liberty a new nation. it was founded on a new government by and for the people. that is the link in the gettysburg address where shun of it. they rejected the idea that there is some authority above all of us that has dominion over us. it was determined as a whole faith collectively, which is a difficult and messy process. in the eyes of some of the founders, it is sort of a natural truth. that is the idea. it's the idea of what we all will do. that simple fundamental and

radical vision is what separates us on the western hemisphere from the old world of europe, where you have monarchies and kings and queens and tyrants. as time went on, various forms of blood and soil, authoritarianism, eventually factual-ism, you don't really get democracies in that part of the world in the way that we think about the mental afterwards. there are some. there are democratic forms of government existing before, than a bunch of film resolutions. a bunch of comprises that it worked out in the uk, poland, different parts of the continent. basically we are the model for the world. right? we are the first ones. we figured it out, we slapped off the yoke of tyranny and seized our faith. the other part of the story that we all know is a very complicated story. as one british critic said at the time

, the loudest cries of liberty come from the americans as they whip their slaves. that is a important point that they saw at the time. people saw the time, there was a incredible and ridiculous attention in american rhetoric about self determination that democracy. general story that we have is that we start with an imperfect democracy and work towards a more perfect democracy. the more perfect union in the preamble. i think there is something towards the story. i don't think it's a crazy story. there is a specific religion we have. there is another way we speak about the story of american democracy. america is the ongoing dynamic sight of perpetual contestation over democracy. it is the site of a constant pitched battle on the side of the democracy and forces against them. it forces against them are not

fringe characters. sometimes the forces against them are the most celebrated people in the country. andrew jackson, he's viewed as a small d democrats because he railed against the elites. he founded the modern democratic party with populism. he invited the people into the white house where they all got drunk. he was not in a recognizable state a democrat in the way that we think about it today. he thought there was a cast of people that was ruling over another test of people. he was major pursuers of the ethnic cleansing that made the continent what it was. he did not think the everybody had in universal, elaine-able writes that should release collectively. he thought the white man should rule over slaves and over the indigenous people that populated the planet. i'm not saying this and a interjection is canceled way. he should be.

to be clear. i'm actually talking about a specific way where characterizing the ideological belief system of andrew jackson. is it acts right to call andrew jackson a small d democrats? is it accurate to call him a believer in democracy? i think that it is tough to say that he is. at least in the modern science. that is the best sense. theodore roosevelt national park mount rushmore. what if theodore reza believes? and writes, and says often that whites should rule over the other races. he found the american empire. in the pacific, where we will rule over these people. they're not going to get the vote. they're not going to be set a sense, they're not equal, they are subject to authority. they are forced to be under that authority.

again, with all of these examples that i'm giving. there are people that recognize this. one of the most pitched debates in the florida congress is about the trail of fears. people come to the world to say that this is -- they didn't have the charm at the time, ethnic cleansing. it's totally unjust. these people have inalienable rights. when we start fighting for our wars, pursuing american empires, there are those at the time being very prominent among them. we are doing the thing that we hated the crown for doing. for each moment at american history where we are having -- what the meaning of democracy is, there are contemporaries on each side of the debate. there is not these neat tea leaves, need arc where we have been confused. don't understand it slavery is wrong. but then we walk into the light. they knew. they knew that the trail of tears was wrong.

they knew the wars in the philippines was wrong. there were people that very clearly saw what it was. it is clear at every point. it is clear up until the period and run up to world war ii. that story, we learned, is basically the following. because of the trauma of world war i, u.s. is reticent of getting more wars unreal european shores. fair. we kind of diverse. fdr comes up with -- right? that's the basic version. he's kind of trying to straddle. he realizes that something should have to be done. it's hard to give americans into an idea of the second world war just second days later. then hovered helpers, where in, fascism happens. go us. [laughter]

that is basically the story. that story masks exactly the same thing. it is masked yay -- to the creation of the u.s. empire under theodore roosevelt. contemporary us and debates in a society about what democracy is and whether it is good. whether what we actually do want is for all of us to collectively as individuals for sovereign rights over ourselves, collectively coming together to transfer the sovereignty into a collective we decide as a democracy into how we will mark our faith. how we will go forward. dominion, ruled by some group or opinion. that is an internal debate in american politics. we will realize this in a way that we did not appreciate until we found ourselves in

this moment now where we are able to debate every day. it feels ridiculous, alien, feels like we landed from mars. how did we come to a consensus on this? did we not all agree we were in a democracy? was it not the fact it in the old days we would fight along the 40 yard lines as a clichi? we did not have extremes, a clichi, the debate has been there the entire time. one of the most useful interventions in understanding the debate being there the entire time comes by way of this upcoming talent that i've spotted. i have a pretty good eye. it is remarkable, a podcast called ball struck that came out a year ago.

if you haven't known about it, go downloaded, subscribe to my podcast and -- download ultra and it is the story of an attempt at basically a fascist sympathizer in the u.s. to -- prior to the war, and their efforts. the incredible links they went to. i won't spoil, it we will talk about it in a second. subsequently, that has returned part of it. i want to urge people, because this is been under the gun deadline wise. i want to urge people to or -- read the book. this prequel, you see it? [applause] it's not just the pot gust in the book. it goes so much further. it's an incredible read. it's kind of a skeleton key for this particular moment. without further ado, i would like to introduce the author and prequel, my dear friend --

my beloved colleague rachel maddow. >> there are a lot of people here. >> for those listening on the podcast, there's 20,000 people. >> these are all just little blobs. i can't see you all. and telephone. >> i want to start with your way into this material. i have to say, it's an incredible talent that you have. this is been true for you

television show, these unexplored nuggets in american history. these people it don't now. you tell them, what? that actually happened? ultra was an incredible example of that. i knew who father coughlin loves. he's the right wing antisemitic populist preacher. i knew that. i knew that there was this american first le pen movement of lindberg. i read the -- >> which is great. >> it is great. that was kind of my cannon for those things. i knew those things. nothing else appeared in that proud cast. i want you to explain what was your way into this material. it really wasn't in the surface. >> i never set out to -- it's always been something that has brian from something going on in the news.

the thing that i get dinged for rightly, in terms of the way i do the right work, if i want to tell you about something -- happening in the world today. first, a meteor hit the earth. then the dinosaurs died. then their bodies dissolved. >> that's a good bid. >> i know that's why i'm alienated, it's not everyone's cup of tea. i love you too. >> that is the way the my brain works. i was as unnerved as everybody, but just as confused as interested that we were seeing all of this out right near nasty antisemitic or neo-nazi step around the lives of trumpism. trumpism is happening in the electoral politics base. then we have the things -- i don't think we call them that anymore. it was seeing them rise

alongside trump and parallel movements, i didn't see why that was. i wanted to figure out why -- not just antisemitism, but specifically holocaust in iowa has functioned in the united states before. >> that was the starting point? -- >> that was the starting point. if you go back part up in terms of american holocaust denial, which i did, you get back to like 1948. i like houston al is a lot of different things, but one thing is weird. so much evidence that it happened, how can we say that it didn't happen? that's especially true in 1948 where there are lots of people in the world that are witnesses to what happened. how can it be that it is a source of denial for political movement? it's not that they honestly believe that it didn't happen. they are using holocaust denial for a reason as part of a political project. that's what i got into in the 40s, and it's how i found my

defendants. it's how i learned that they got put on trial. they got off when the judge died. i was going to tell a different story, i got to tell a different one. i didn't -- >> you trace in the book different strands of pro fascist and antisemitic not see aligned thoughts and actors in the u.s.. how would you describe? there is a little bit of a misfit toys situation, there are also odd ones in there. they're operating in the cursive environment where there is not closed off to what they are saying. tell me about public opinion around the question of fascism and the rise of it in 1930, 31, 32, where some of the people you document in the book

are trying to, and sometimes at the best of the german government cultivate sympathy. >> fascism was the movement of the future. fascism did not have the cast that we have socioeconomic. respectfully with not see germany. the number one selling book in america in 1941 was written by charles lindbergh's wife, and it was about how fascism came to america, wouldn't that be fantastic? we could finally get stuff done. it was in fact, a lot of people that have looked into it believe, and i can't say this definitively, a lot of people believe it was ghost written by a guy named lawrence dennis, the leading intellectual fascist. the coming american fascism. he went on -- one of the things that we found was told nbc radio archives from a telling meeting of the air, a great debate show

that he hosted on one of the nbc radio networks. one of the very first ones that they did, they brought lawrence dennis in to argue for fascism against everybody arguing against fascism. -- it was a popular thing. >> 43% of the population was against it. that's what he was up against. a lot of that was not fighting another war, but some of it was that the people you fight against, they might have the beta. >> how did they go about cultivating -- you talk about dennis for a little bit, worthwhile spending a time on. >> lawrence denis had been a statewide department official. he had gone to harvard.

he was a very area day, articulate guy. he was -- he had a stump stacked contra very next to him. you could complement him without insulting him for complimenting you. who is that kind of a guy. in his gruffness and contrary- ness, he made everybody fall in love with them. he was seen by men, women, old, young, nobody had -- he slapped his way through the 1930s. in a way where he did not understand why his wife minded. he was writing speeches in books for the isolationists, and the isolationists weren't calling each other fascist overtly. they had a leading fascist in america writing their stuff. he was a favorite of did not see government in berlin. they brought him over for the nuremberg rallies, brought him over to germany, brought him

access to everybody including hitler. he used it to essentially become a very networked and influential person. he interviewed miscellany, heller, interviewed everybody that was an interesting and important diplomat of the time. he came home and write speeches for isolationists senators and books for the wives and heroes. he was one of the sedition trial defendants. he was so arrogant that he not only defended himself but insisted that they should be mental examinations. once they realize -- he's kind of the leading -- he's a leading fascist american intellectual, but this seat is being planted in somewhat fertile soil. i wonder if you could talk about why that's the case.

world war i was brutal and awful. there's an interesting thing that happens in this book, people understandably and reasonably know that that's a disaster. it's being prepared to like, we can never do that again. the pastor, which is not a crazy posture, being the kind of stability slow by which they end up in first initiation-ism and outright fascism. you have the oppression and you have this sort of like, the brokenness of the american system versus the messiness of democracy. all three of those things are running themes in the people that are pushing for, proposing for, or in the case of huey long, providing an alternate. >> yes. i think is easiest to see it when you look at what the germans are

secretly telling us. one of the things we now, and this is also in the book, there's a very big, very aggressive, very well funded secret german pop began to effort with the american people. they're basically trying to do three things. i guess you can narrow that down to. one of them was to support i say -- isolationism however they could. that would help you here in. any argument against the americans, they were all for them. they also want to tear us against our allies by making a succeed fascism in every form of government. they are arguing that we should not go to war to defend our ally, britain. what sense are they really allies? they are cool, they're weak, but the germans that have a much better idea are going to run over them in a matter of weeks. why should we side with the failing empire and now with the

germans that have a better idea? >> they're making us believe that what they are as -- that we should change our form of government. by having a democracy, we are opening ourselves up by having the jews, by having international forces, by sending us into the meat grinder of the wars where we should just let germany go inside with them. they were trying to articulate all of this things by any american voices that they can put our words into the mouth of. its members of congress, it's u.s. senators, it's people like lawrence tennis that they are finding up to was. it's an american not see asian running 12 different publications it's magazines. its messages are trying to sell us. it's just unnerving and clarifying to see them. it's so much the story there are still being sold by those that would prefer that we became

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the message is that there are not just my already groups that spooky out, they're secretly powerful. they are the hidden power behind the scenes. you think that your controlling the government. you think the year voting for people. your vote doesn't matter, there's the secret cabal. the circuit cabal. they don't participate in the democracy. -- they protect us from the people. they're strong, they have authority, they can protect us from the people, to vote is cute but it's weak. as the only way -- that message is the same. democracy doesn't work. they align us with strongman countries and down their

countries of the world. the other piece, there's no knowable truth. >> it's really important. >> it's really important. i can tell right now it sounds crazy. it's not crazy. it's raised a civic. one of the things they do is that they tell you if they don't believe journalism, don't believe science, don't believe experts. don't believe history. it's fake. none of these expertise. -- they don't recognize real practical problems in the roiled. they don't realize real practical solemn, or the race of acceptable to conspiracy theories or suggestion from the leader that needs you to do things that you really don't do on your own team.

that dislocation from the truth. don't trust immediate, don't trust science, don't trust experts. don't trust any political opposition. don't trust journalism. that i was always has it been. >> here's what is fascinating to me and in the book. everything you described, when they happen now, when versions of them have been now. there's this very historical, and also an understandable tendency to put them on to the technology of the time with all of the traits that we had -- the technological movement, it's all there. integrations of it. as far as i can tell, it's almost as effective. >> the thing that has changed is the iterative nature of the media. you are nature to be able to talk back in a social environment. what that does is it work as an accelerant.

-- okay, here's a bigger lie. it helps the messages be targeted better. . . . . ? . . , -- the most fema e.v.a. traipse was laura angles. it is her eighth cousin. >> don't get it twisted. >> she flew an airplane over the white house and dropped pamphlets over the white house out of an airplane. they were very impressive.

you don't want to see this campus. she was on the pay role of them not sees. he was talking to the gestapo agent in the united states. she was fully getting paid. she had a monthly stipend. there is a great moment. do you know how you do times machine for all of the times machine articles? you can use the time machine. there's a limit to how much you can use the time mission. >> did you find it? >> it's getting out of the bar at four a.m.. that's it, sorry. >> not see a beatrix. i'm sorry. [laughter] >> i didn't think you had my number. she was so famous there is a number in the article, the new york times. in 1984, she had a speeding

ticket. article in the new york times. by 1995, she was so famous where she got a parking ticket. it is crazy how famous u.s.. and then she was working for the gestapo, dropping flyers on the white house. it is an amazing story, one of the witnesses against her in the trial was a surgeon that operated on her, saying that after she was under the lap and guess, all she wanted to talk about with the swastika necklace. one of the most influential and popular celebrities in the entire country. her espousing the views that she had it being sent a daredevil, in the ways that she was expressing them, we don't have anything like that to get. that's a different kind of power . >> that level of mass fame is harder to achieve now. there are these people in the book, and laura angles was great. there is a bunch of those the can tell the story of. . then there is henry ford.

it's so funny. i know the broad strokes of henry ford. ford motors. basically creating the modern means, the factory method of assembly production bringing cost done in doing so. paying its workers. higher wages than others. also raging antisemite. those are my two sentences on forward. the last part of that, the last sentence, i knew it, but when you read it in your book and when you reencounter henry ford on the subject of the jewish people. the lengths that he went to, i really don't think we -- i think you need to really reverse the order of that bio and the two sentences. he was wildly dangerous and

bad. aligned with the worst forces in human history. >> i knew about ford's antisemitism as if it were a private vice. here is a different thing. he was one of the things. do you mind if i read this? with the majority of my patients with sensitivity i see irritated gums and weak enamel. sensodyne sensitivity gum and enamel it relieves sensitivity helps restore gum health

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he was one of the most celebrated and successful industrialists on the planet. 70s him was -- in private tirades among friends, family, business cohorts, or pretty much anybody within earshot. in the office. private chats, interviews, dinners, even on camping trips. a close friends what wrote in his diary after the diatribe, ford attributes all evil to jewish people. before he ordered his engineers to forego any blast -- he called brass a jew metal. before he said anything was

wrong with the country, he would say you can find juice -- inciting his workers and stockholders to ensure that he shared a sliver more of the end expensive -- he played them for the jew standard, and he blamed them for jewish pages in america. he blamed jewish people for popular music. he blamed jewish for ruining baseball. ford was hardly the only radical semitic in america, but in addition to his fortune and famous man, his iconic company, he had a megaphone for your average uncle theorizer. he had twitter. i'm kidding. sorry. it is x. he had a newspaper, it is called the dearborn independent. it purchased for a song in 1918. it is a big money loser, but

his at the tory hill harangues drew new readers. how about new attacks that had beaten ford in the michigan senate race for the public. truman h. newberry had stolen that election. one of the dearborn and it toil staffers with a veteran of the newspaper wars. he had an idea. he wrote ford's right-hand man, find an evil to attack. let's find some sensationalism. low, the answer landed unbidden, a newly translated english language addition titled the particles of the meetings of the learning and yards -- of zion. who's antisemitic russian fabulous furious at the bolsheviks's toppling of the barriers to accuracy. the russian of lucian was not just a local affair, the early innings of a plot by a cabal of all-powerful jewish schemers to take over the world. the

particles was built as the product of a surreptitious notetaker is a top secret meeting, where is the jewish puppet makers had drew up their strategy. there is no secret meeting, there is no secret plot, there is no surreptitious notetaker. the whole thing was a worker fiction. i considered a very deliberate lie and piece of propaganda. ford and his newspaper bore down on it with alacrity. they started a new weekly series based on the protocols. it would end up being a 92 part weekly series. every week for 92 weeks headlines like these, the international jewish person, the world's problem. jewish jazz, moron music becomes our national music. and this one, the perils of baseball, too much jew. this was published in four dealerships across the country.

they also sought to the publication of series in book form, titled the international jew. it ran to four volumes. never mind the particles where exposed as make-believe in 1921, right in the middle of the 92 week series. the weekly international series a continued without pause, and ford or -- motors started tossing the front seat of newly- product model ts throughout the country. he sought to it that the four volumes of the international jew was published worldwide in 12 international editions, including one in germany. put a pin in that. a ball of the controversial opinions, he said this. the most prolific and sustained public at attack on jews had ever known. one particularly gifted propagandist, adolf hitler's

book was published in 19 -- 45. not just ideas, but a whole powerpoint -- from ford's own publications. mein kampf's first addition cited ford by name. jews who govern the saudi stock exchange versus the european union. the controlling masters of producers in the nation of 120 million. it is only one single great man, ford, whose their fury stays with full independents. at that, point they head mauled -- what had they hoped would be henry ford's presidency in 2024. when a reporter from the detroit news showed up in the not seek party headquarters in munich, interviewing hitler, she had a series that was called five minutes with men in public eye. she had her five minutes with hitler. she went to hitler's office and was surprised to find hanging on the

wall behind hitler's desk a large framed portrait of a very famous american. hillary explained to the hit -- to the newspaper woman, i describe henry ford as my inspiration. the detroit reporter asked hitler that day why he was antisemitic. he said without hesitation, somebody has to be blamed for our troubles. i feel like if you go back in time to that, the worst thing that you could find, if you could time machine yourself back to the future style, people that you are interested in. the worst thing you could imagine is that they were having a portrait of hitler at that time. hitler having a portrait of you is actually worse. i didn't know that was an option. as worse. baby: liberty. oh! baby: liberty.

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directly at the source. voltaren, the joy of movement. there's something going around the gordon home. good thing gertrude found delsym. now what's going around is 12-hour cough relief. and the giggles. the family that takes delsym together, feels better together. i think we have a sense of fascism being a european production. that passage is like, can we export this? how much is it actually coming from us. and this is not the only place

where that's the case. talk a little bit about that notion. antisemitism, which i think everyone understands is sort of ubiquitous and universal in some cases, in many different places in many different forms, not any particular era. i do think there's a sense that it is an endemic european problem. and that the u.s. was maybe like a little more distant from it. and that is just not the case. >> not the case. one of the things that is unsettling about the henry forward thing is the idea that it was a west to east conveyance. you also saw that at the university of arkansas law school. the not seize sent a young important rising star not seen lawyer to spend a year at the university of arkansas lawyers doing a study of american race law. they wanted to learn about how america could be seen as a paragon of democracy and a good guy country in the world while oh pressing african americans to

the degree that we were while oppressing indigenous americans, native americans, and while conquering countries around the world and subjugating the people in those countries as subjects and not citizens. how is it that america looks good and their constitution says none of this is possible, but they're still doing it. they thought that was an excellent idea. (applause) and so they sent an azzi lawyer, heinrich cruger, to the university of arkansas, to do a deep study of racist american law and a way that you could have the 14th amendment and also jim crow. and also lynching. and they brought that. not the government production, they brought his report back to

munich and berlin and they used it as the basis for discussion for writing the nuremberg laws to strip jews of their citizenship in germany. they learned some of that from us. and if you think that it's something in the german character that makes you susceptible to fascism, i invite you to spend time thinking about that antidote. it's very disturbing. ♪ ♪ ♪ from breaking your momentum. you may have already been vaccinated against the flu, but don't forget this season's updated covid-19 shot too. j.p. morgan wealth management knows it's easy to get lost in investment research. get help with j.p morgan personal advisors. hey, david! ready to get started? work with advisors who create a plan with you, and help you find the right investments. so great getting to know you, let's take a look at your new investment plan. ok, great! this should have you moving in the right direction. thanks jen.

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as the world keeps moving, help prevent covid-19 from breaking your momentum. you may have already been vaccinated against the flu, but don't forget this season's updated covid-19 shot too. two leading candidates for senate. two very different visions for california. steve garvey, the leading republican, is too conservative for california. he voted for trump twice and supported republicans for years,

including far right conservatives. adam schiff, the leading democrat, defended democracy against trump and the insurrectionists. he helped build affordable housing, lower drug costs, and bring good jobs back home. the choice is clear. i'm adam schiff, and i approve this message. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪

>> more than headlines last few days about what's being put together around donald trump. about what a second term looks like and with staffing, who particularly lawyers would, be who the lawyers would approach their job. one of the things that i recognized in the last days, particularly in the trump administration, is that the rule of law, a grandiose an abstract term, is just as a kind of sociological fact what the sort of acculturation of a class of lawyers will or won't go for at a certain point. in reality, what it means is that when it is time to do the coup, which lawyers will be like, yes, and which will be like, no. and that's like a sociological fact, as opposed to an abstract fact about law. the law is no. you can't. but if you get people with bad enough faith and bad enough intentions and morally dubious enough and smart enough.

>> smart enough is important. >> they can come up with ways to make a colorable argument that yes. we got lucky and so far as there were not, there were a few, but there were many more who didn't. but that idea that it comes down to that. which it sort of shows up in that fayetteville chapter, that everyone who's operating system, the jim crow in the south as lawyers know what they are doing, that really haunts me. it's what i think about the most when i read the stories about the 2025 project, about trump's plans, and about what ultimately the guardrail is that keeps us using democracy under the rule of law and not a dictatorship.

>> to be clear, i should just say this, the book is called prequel not because of the bad guys but because of the good guys. (applause) only hitler's hitler. only not these are not. sees there is no modern analogy to germany under hitler and the 90s from 1933 to 1945. there isn't one. don't try to make. when the prequel, the people to sort of learn from here, the story that went before that feels like the antecedent to what we are in now, where the

americans were fighting against the ultra right in this previous time, both in the government but also mostly outside of the government, people who were trying to outflank and expose them and hold them to account. i always feel like, i know it's obvious to everyone, but it's important to say. in terms of what's going on in contemporary terms, i've been thinking about this project 2025 stuff and i'm having another one of those moments, which you know me well enough to know happens all the time, which everybody sees it one way and i'm really stuck on a piece of it that i see differently, and i can't let it go. that's the insurrection act part of it. so this reporting in the washington post, last sunday,

that trump, project 2025 plan involves invoking the insurrection act on the first day that he is sworn in for his next term. it keeps getting discussed as how crazy is it that trump wants to use the military against peaceful protesters? first of, all these protests are hypothetical. we don't know that they exist. also, there's nothing in them invoking the insurrection act that has anything to do with protest. if you on your first day in office give yourself the power to use the u.s. military against u.s. civilians on u.s. soil, if you think it matters whether there is a protest anywhere in the country, that day or any subsequent day -- (applause) it is the check of ian book loaded gun sitting in the first act of the play. it will be used by the end of the play and it is accruing power to himself in a way that, it's not like they'll do it for 12 hours and then give it back. the idea of the authoritarian project is to gather all power to the leader, both inside the government and outside the governments. you're not allowed to be a political opponent. jan also not allowed to be immediate critic. and you're also not allowed to be civics i.t. and that suffix is i.t. entails opposition or criticism of the leader. this is what fascism is. it may be a form of government that includes other sources of authority when leader takes over, but those other sources authority from the government will be either neutered or closed down. so the congress will not function, the fourth estate will no longer be free.

civil society will not be allowed to do anything that is critical or in opposition. political potency will not be tolerant tolerated. ultimately minorities will be scapegoated. this is how these things go. to know that i will accrue all power to myself, i will unify civilian and military authority on day one, and have that be the announced plan, it just means that we're there. this is it. we're not in a hypothetical confrontation with a leader who promises authoritarian rule. we are in an explicit choice. >> the choice part is the part that i think a lot of people have a hard time with. it's something that appears in the book. fascism in both its italian and german forms and differently in spain actually because it functions a little differently there. but it's a popular movement. again, the hitler was elected, but it's the case that there is mass mobilization and tons of people in millions of people who are like, yes, we want this. there is a fascinating irony to. it it's a mass movement of grassroots supporters mobilizing in favor of what will ultimately be an authoritarian project that makes the civil society, that allows for mass movements, basically, to go away. i think a lot of people probably this room probably listening to this podcast or watching this, have a hard time being, like, how is this

popular? how is this popular and why is this popular? i'm curious if you feel like you've got insights that you have drawn from this period of historical study. again, it's not precise apples to apples, but people wanting a charismatic leader who's going to fight for them and defend -- >>. ,, again, this is the, trump killer was elected. there is mass mobilization, millions of people were like, yes, we want this. there's a fascinating irony to it, which is that it becomes a mass movement of grassroots supporters mobilizing in favor of what will ultimately be authoritarian project that makes the civil society that allows for movements to basically go away. a lot of people in this room that listen to the podcast and are watching, this they have a hard time being like, has this popular?

how and why is this popular? i'm curious if you feel like you have got news sites that you have drawn from this period of historical study -- against, it's not apples to apples. but people wanting a charismatic leader who is going to fight for them and defend their purity or -- >> embody the nation. >> embody the nation against his enemies, foreign and domestic, that is, that has been a popular recipe. >> there's different kinds of authoritarians. fascism is a mass mobilization movement. that's also complex because one of the things that happens in fascist decidedly is it becomes impossible not to be part of the movement. so you may be an enthusiast. but if you're not you're probably gonna be out there wearing a badge and doing the saying. because you don't have any other choice. you create the illusion of unitary, of a unitary nation subject to and a fan of the

great leader about who there's a cult of personality and you're not allowed to oppose. >> there's a line you quote, i don't think he long was a fascist but he was an authoritarian, he said you can get to a point where it looks like it's a democracy and it's not a democracy anymore because people are so happy with the leader. >> yeah. >> no one's complaining anymore because you just solved everything. (laughter) this was his line. why bother voting? we all agree. that was his line. louisiana as under hualong was routinely caused called a dictatorship. in court it was called bass. it was a defense, actually used by people who were put on file trial in federal court for having been part of his immensely corrupt graph schemes in louisiana. judges would say, like, well you weren't huey long, so you didn't have a choice in the matter. this is a dictatorship. you didn't have freewill therefore yes, you took the bribes, but you are kicking them up to him. it was accepted that he was a dictator. that's why fascist love the idea of huey long.

that's confusing if we look at authoritarian authoritarianism as a conservative versus liberal thing, because lots of thing things about huey long look liberal. policy does not matter. it is about accruing all power to the leader. that's all that matters. and they'll say and do anything in order to get all the power, but then once they've got it, that's the point. >> there's a certain kind of specific visual grammar and language syntax and cadence to fascism or to broadly authoritarian movements, or popular leadership cults, and there's a picture of huey long, big portrait if you see it immediately like oh, i know exactly what this is. like, there's the big picture of the guy, and i feel that way about, to bring back to the contemporary, i feel that way about the use of the word vermin. >> yes. >> by trump this week. >> a trump this week in a speech to describe his

political and domestic energy enemies. when you see that, and you know what you're looking. at when you hear a leader described the other people on the political spectrum as vermin, with like investing the, nation i just know what that is immediately. >> everybody knows what that is. and i think he knows what that is. >> yes. >> there's also something, there's a little bit of, i don't know what we should call, it a playground thing that he does in terms of his politics. do you remember where the idea

of fake news came from, that phrase? that phrase was not donald trump's phrase. that was used to describe what was happening in russian information spaces, where they were writing legitimately fake made-up new stories and then siloing them into the u.s. news ecosystem through pro russian covert sources, and it was a legitimate thing. this thing didn't happen in montenegro, but russian propaganda sources wrote that it happened in montenegro and now there are rightly new sources in america where describing this thing that happened in montenegro that never happened in montenegro. it was a real thing. was part of what was going on with the russian disinformation influence and election interference after efforts in 2016. people are starting to figure it out that that was one of the weird things that was happening in our information universe in that election. and then trump adopted it and said all news is fake news. and so then you couldn't use that term anymore to describe

this more technical thing which we had been previously describing. without a term to describe it, we then lost track of it. because then it became a thing that had a meaningless name. so you can't talk about that thing. so there's some of that. >> with what? >> the use of the word vermin. and with the way that he is now calling his enemies fascists. >> right. yes he, has started doing. that >> he has started calling you and me and everybody who's not team trump is a fascist, that he has to save the country from the fascists. and he's using this terminology which is overtly and obviously fascist callback language, and we have the people, yes, okay, but calling the internal enemy vermin and to be exterminated, he knows what he's doing. that will make everybody say wow, the most fascist things i ever heard, no, fascist, year the fascists. all his enemies are fascists. and then the word fascist

doesn't mean anything anymore. and we don't have any word anymore to describe what this is that he's trying to get us to do. we (applause) so as he starts to advance what i think is a more overtly authoritarian project, watch for him to call everyone else an authoritarian and a tyrant. it's to rob those words of their function. >> there's, there are people in

your book who want to be the next american hitler and don't have it in the. i don't remember morally, i just mean whatever the stuff is, the charisma, whatever it is, and i guess i, something that i was thinking about when reading your book, what is the saying? what is the thing that makes hualong successful in becoming huey long? what is the thing that makes trump successful in this particular kind of type, authoritarian populist demagogue, different people have tried it in different ways, it has a lot of commonalities in the rhetoric. some six feet in some don't. it feels alchemical to me. i can't tell you what it is because i can describe. i can understand basic dynamics. i understand blaming some small disfavored minority for the nations ills and the invigorating feeling of solidarity that comes from the nation's blood all coursing through the rally and all being directed at one place like a bunch of solar panels aimed at a water tower to boil everything together and i can get that and i can look at someone who is gifted and rhetoric and his presence and

charisma, which is a percent to about him, but in the end if you ask me to, if i had the nba draft of fascists autocrats (laughter) and i was like running them through the paces, i don't know in the end what makes someone work for someone and not for someone else.

>> this is a very unpopular opinion, but i do not believe that the leader matters. >> this is what i sort of thought. >> the movement matters. >> it's prior to, he backs into it at some level. >> you need a country that is looking for an authoritarian solution, and you need people who are willing to submit themselves to the authority of the person who says they deserve it. and so you've got, like, frankel was napoleon sized. hitler was a dork. mussolini was a journalist and a socialist. >> those were the worst things. >> those were the worst things in the world. >> (laughter) (applause) >> but not a big set up. there's one thing about these guys that's inherently, that transformed those countries against their will. those countries were subject to an anti democratic pro authoritarian movement that had skills, and the people were ready to do it. and so you end up with a huey long being very successful in the project that he was part of. the person who fdr most feared running against in 1936 was huey long. in 1935, as huey long was gearing up to start his presidential campaign, where he was gonna run against fdr, and fdr believe that if anyone could beat him it would be huey, in 1935, fdr was at the summer white house in hyde park new york, and he had summoned

father coughlin to come talk to him about the fact that coughlin was clearly supporting he along. he believes it coughlin and long and long together would bring america to a fascist dictatorship in two years. ease of it was an unstoppable force. he was there to try to talk loughlin out of it and as coughlin was driving to fdr's house that day for that top hualong was assassinated. >> spoiler alert. >> (laughter) >> that was 1935 and that's the way things went. what huey long's power-wise, i think what was magic about him, was his unbridled appetite for power. >> right. >> the thing that he did was, yes, he paved road to the grave away free school textbooks and he was a spellbinding orator and he wore silk outfits and all sorts of things you could say about him. but really what he was a maestro of was power, that he never met the source of authority that he could not accrue to himself, and that was the saying that you need to be able to do to be able to lead a society in that direction well

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>> can i ask you a personal question? >> yes. >> i make this joke when i talk about my job or i would say something along the lines of, and the staff here has heard this, it's now going on eight years of my one precious life dealing with thinking about this dude. >> (laughter) >> here we long? (laughter) >> (applause) >> obviously the world's

smallest violin, i'm lucky to do what i do, and i love what i do. but there's an exhaustion factor. (applause) you guys feel that way too? but there's also those exhaustion but there's also you've got to be indefatigable because the movement on the other side seems indefatigable navigable. >> yes! >> and are you exhausted, as well? seriously, because people ask me all the time and i'm, like i feel for myself, i feel very like the stakes are incredibly high, when you said when we're looking at someone talking about doing this from day one, we are in it. i feel that way. i felt that way for much of this. that is animating. it gives me a sense of zeal and mission and energy. but also it's like sometimes i'm like -- i cannot. and so i just balance those two but i'm curious as to how you do it. >> one thing you and i have talked about over beers, one of

the things that is the privilege and pleasure of our job, maybe not up for leisure, a privilege, is that you're here and you watch msnbc -- >> (applause) >> you're thinking about this stuff all the time. you're consuming the news all the time you're thinking about our country and you're worrying about the worst people in america and what they might do next. all the time. we all are. and then to have to do all that and go do your jobs. chris and i are doing all that, but then our jobs is processing it. so it's therapy. we are all being put through the same ringer. but chris and i get to do our daily jobs talking about the stuff. that is a great privilege. to that end, part of my big

jobs has also been writing this book and doing other projects like it. i'm mark working on ultra season too. >> (applause) >> very exciting. and what is energizing to me about that is, again, the good guys. you think that the bad guys in this are obscure, and most of them are, coughlin, and forward, and long, but the really obscure people are the good guys, the americans who, the beleaguered secretary who is working for this minnesota senator and was such a freaking creep every time she gets paid by the senate she has to hand back half of her salary to him in cash. that's how much power she had in the workplace. and yes, she went to the fbi and she told the fbi. >> (applause) >> water senator boss was doing with a well-known azzi agent. she didn't sign up for the marines trying to be a paratrooper somewhere. she was somebody who was not in a powerful position at all and she did something that was

really important for her country. i am very enthused to learn her story. i'm very enthused to learn about the guy who was like this really milquetoast normal middle of the road guy who's fields of expertise was direct mail advertising and yet, when you son came home from his first semester of college and was like, dad, i'm getting all this propaganda, this anti- semitic pro german pro veggies and propaganda at school. it's really freaking me out, i don't know what to do with it. he was like, well, i do happen to have an area of expertise that relates to stuff being sent in the mail. and he applied his random area of expertise to becoming a one- man expository journalist and investigator to find out and to literally document for the good of the country a multi million dollar covert propaganda campaign that the germans were

running through 24 congressional offices and multiple front organizations all over the country. and he exposed it. he was an ad man. a random civilian who did this. i'm so energized by stories like that. who's gonna be that secretary? who's going to be that ad man? who's gonna be the guy working for the atl in southern california running a spy ring on his fellow world war i veterans? >> disguise amazing. >> because they notice that german groups in los angeles we are starting to have hitler youth summer camps and they were worried about that. who are the heroes among us today who didn't sign up to be heroes but heroisms is coming to their door? >> (applause) >> i am energized. i'm energized but i also feel like for all of us being a 250-

year-old democracy is hard. there aren't very many. the seeds of anti-democratic projects in authoritarian projects are within the heart of every person who lives in a democracy because democracy, like you were saying at the outset, chris, is about us all deciding something together, us as equals, with our rights and our sacred lives given to us by almighty god, equal before one another, can decide together how we will be governed, and that is a beautiful thing unless you think that some of the people who are in your polity with you shouldn't have a say because they're creeps. and who among us has not felt that way?

>> it is not an evil thing to think, that, actually, i have a better idea than you, you shouldn't get a say. that's natural. a small d democrats, we need to be committed to the idea that this is a better system of government than others, for all of its flaws. the great, tactical disadvantage, for those of us who fight for democracy is not fighting for democracy is democracy. you must use democratic means to defeat anti-democratic forces. this can seem like fighting with one hand tied behind your back. you are either a democrat, or you are not. it's hard. it's hard. you have got to do it from breaking your momentum. you may have already been vaccinated against the flu, but don't forget this season's updated covid-19 shot too. life, diabetes, there's no slowing down. each day is a unique blend of people to see and things to do. that's why you choose glucerna to help manage blood sugar response. uniquely designed with carbsteady. glucerna. bring on the day. mucinex nightshift fights your worst night-time symptoms,

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growing up, my parents wanted me to become a doctor or an engineer. those are good careers! but i chose a different path. first, as mayor and then in the legislature. i enshrined abortion rights in our california constitution. in the face of trump, i strengthened hate crime laws and lowered the costs for the middle class. now i'm running to bring the fight to congress. you were always stubborn. and on that note, i'm evan low, and i approve this message.

i have a few questions, folks in the audience, perfectly sequences to this in angela in stanford, connecticut. she says this, and i don't know if you have any people like this in your life, what do you have any close friends or family friends, or anyone else who has -- >> i live in rural massachusetts -- living in rural, western -- a lot of great things about it. a lot of it has the internet which is new. that has really made things a lot better. one of the things that i think, as a kid who grew up in the suburbs, who's lived in cities my whole life, i've lived there

for the last 20 years, one of the things that it has taught me is that politics is only one thing, in any one person's life even for those who are committed. news junkies, political activists, working for political parties, or an elected official themselves, a bear is getting into their trash. they, also are afraid of them -- >> a lot of heartbreak. >> they are taking care of their elderly parents, who they didn't expect to be taken care of at this point in their life, they have both kids, and parents, and they are the responsible family member. they have another family member who is in recovery, who they are so hopeful for, but so scared for. there is, i believe, something very important that you can do in your non political life, that will improve your political life.

to have personal relationships with people, face to face. things that are about everything besides politics. it is hard to do, post covid, even harder, but do you have a book club? do you, maybe, want to start a club? it could be over zoom. do you have a neighbor who lives alone? who wants to come to thanksgiving? do you want to be part of a civic group was working on a local pipeline that is coming to your town? do you want to volunteer at the vets hospital? something that connects you to the immediate era, which isn't about finding consensus about what happens in the 2024 election is good for your community, it is good for your soul, and being able to look at

other people, in the eye, and recognize each other's human? it. [applause] i have another one, this is from pat and pennsylvania. this is completely, out of the blue, and i don't think a single person in this audience has given this any thought, but alaskan anyway. >> nicely done. >> what do you think of the latest polls -- >> whether they show biden and trump neck and neck? >> i don't know, ask president romney. i don't know. you are actually much better reading polls than i am. no, you are, you are much

better, your more subtle. i look at them and say -- i feel like polls, in my adult lifetime, our garbage.. except, occasionally, they are right. so, yes, you can spend your time worrying about polls, or you can work as hard as possible, for the candidate you want to win. i sometimes, there are interesting cross tabs information. a specific group of people, who used to think about your chosen candidate, now thinking about this about that person. okay, that may be helpful in terms of the way you may want to work for your candidate. but, the point of them, especially for us as a public, for people who are not political professionals, they tell you what work needs to be done. calibrate your level of political involvement to match, exactly, your anxiety about the polls. if you are freaked out about it, do something. do something with other people. you will be better for it, and

you will be more resilient, and in difficult times ahead. this is from debbie in north carolina. i think i may have met debbie before the show, who came here, from there today. this is a trade craft question that, i, also, have. having watched you closely for years. how do you come up with such amazing topics that start-up seemingly totally random, drive a stake through the heart of a relevant event? >> it is that meteor thing. i think -- >> how? how? get down to brass tacks. process. where does the seed show of a random anecdote that is the start of the thing? are you reading all the time? do you follow some -- what is it?

>> in general, it's good to read all the time. in our business, if there is one thing i could impart on you bergeron, we'll, if you are a female person coming to this, first of all, never show your emotions, no one ever understands. otherwise, male or female -- still true, hello. in general, for everybody, read beyond the assigned to reading. whatever the assigned reading is what's going on the news cycle, read beyond it. you never know what will be redevelopment. read stuff that interests you, that is nonfiction, that is journalism, that is history, that is academic work that interests you. you never know when it will be relevant, and when it will be a helpful contribution. just in general. so, the way it works, on a day-

to-day basis, is there something going on that is interested in, that i'm confused by, or wants to understand better. i just keep looking stuff about it, until i find something that interests me. then, i teach myself that thing, and then teach other people that thing. again, your mileage may vary. my storytelling style doesn't work for everybody. if you do not mind coming around on the journey that i'm on, i really do believe that, over the course of one conversation, you can get to a graduate school level of complexity with anybody, so long as you are willing to start together, in kindergarten. that is why some people don't like that i repeat things, that i will restate, luke, bakary state, lou, back restate. some people find that very frustrating. i heard you the seven-time, i didn't need at the 17th. that is because we are starting here, and going here. i need to ensure that we are all there, every step. the weird or the topic, the more unfamiliar the proper nouns are, i think the more that you have to pay attention to the way you tell the story. by the time we get to the point of it, it's like, oh, it comes

together, i've got it. my shorthand for myself is that by the time we get to the end of the story, i want you to be able to tell it to well enough that you could tell someone else. i want you to get, it so you can tell my story. that's what i'm trying to do. what are changes you have made to your method in process, and in final versions over the course of the long career you have had doing this? >> the a block is getting longer. that if you represent one of our advertisers, i'm particularly sorry. it is a real consequence. like i said, i do have this one gear brain.

i don't think that i have changed very much, in terms of the way i think about the news. i tried, for a while, to pay attention to the visual elements on the screen while i'm talking, but it didn't work, so i gave up. that was my big try, my big effort, to notice what is happening. >> i feel like you are very involved in the production. >> yes, but i don't look at it while i'm talking. >> oh yes, you can't look while you are talking. you were looking while you are talking? >> i am unaware of -- i will choose what elements i want there to be, but i don't know when they're on the screen, and i don't speak to them, or know what you are looking at. let me ask you this one, and i think it will be probably be our final one. i will ask you to, how about that? >> good, a good democratic >> goc with nurtec odt i can treat and prevent my migraine attacks all in one. don't take if allergic to nurtec. allergic reactions can occur even days after using.

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with nurtec odt, i can treat a migraine when it strikes and prevent migraine attacks, all in one. don't take if allergic to nurtec. allergic reactions can occur, even days after using. most common side effects were nausea, indigestion, and stomach pain. ask about nurtec odt. i will ask you this one, and it will probably be our final one. i will ask you to. >> that's a good democratic moment. this is good. >> that's exactly right. [applause] >> i think in a part of the

answer, we say how do you deep compress given the critical nature of your job? >> since i switched to mondays, and i know, -- [inaudible] i was dying. i'm sorry that i'm only there on monday. i am alive. [applause] >> i cannot overemphasize how unsustainable her work flow is. truly. >> the one thing -- now in one day a week, so not dying, except, i did use to count for compartmentalization purposes, on the schedule of the daily live show. so, what that meant is no

matter how long i worked over the course of the day, i am live at nine pm eastern, and no longer live at 10:01. then, i'm don. i will not work the rest of the evening, unless there is some breaking news, think i will do whatever i need to do in the morning before you start working, then they start working again. that was the off switch, and on switch. a switch. the switch is only there on mondays, now. what is happening is i work seven days a week, and then work until midnight every day. i'm doing all of these other things, which are fantastic. it is, actually, bad. i need to fix it. last question, from jean and the millers in new york. what keeps you up at night? hawaii

>> wine. i used to do friday night cocktail moments. if i am in the same room as something that is over 80 proof? i'm awake five days. a single glass of wine, and i'm a bit three in the morning being 50 years old. that is the true story of what keeps me up at night. i just outgrew the ability to do cocktails. in terms of this work -- one of the reasons i said that thing about trying to have some in person connections with other people who live near you, and are in your life right now, one of the reasons why i said that, and i've been trying to tell people when i speak at the audiences for this book tour, is just because, i do think we will have a hard year. i think it's going to be a

weird year. if it goes very badly, it is going to be more, weird, bad years after that. but, regardless of how it goes a year from now, it will be a tough year. therefore, i want to us all to make us as resilient as we can. this means not having baggage trailing behind you that you do not want to have trailing behind you. it means, making up with your estranged family members. it means, getting to know your neighbors. it means, if you have serious concerns about politics, it means working in a political campaign. it means having something to do with the civil -- civic life of where you are, so you are not alone while we have a tough year in this country. it has come for us in this generation, in this country, in this lifetime. it does not come for every generation. but it has come for us, and we need to be up to it. it means, you cannot live on your phone. (applause) you cannot build from a position of despair, and feeling powerless. you need to have people you can call. not just because they are on your side, but because you know them, and they know you, and you are americans, together, in a difficult moment. we need that kind of resilience, for all of us. they start a book club.

>> rachel maddow, ladies and gentlemen. (applause) ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪

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-(clock ticking) -(birds chirping) j. robert oppenheimer: i have been asked whether, in the years to come, it will be possible to kill 40 million american people by the use of atomic bombs in a single night. i am afraid that the answer to that question is yes.