problem with it. >> don feudal thank you very much i appreciate you and before we go i want to thank all of your readers and philly and in st. louis to currency in my book tour this past week. i've loved meeting you all and for all of those of you in california i will be heading out there later this week. our bit pomona college and clermont on thursday at seven pm and then on friday at seven pm. please be sure to go to medgar and marley, to msnbc.com slash medgar and really for tickets. i hope to see you there and that's tonight's reidout. thank you all to the delta chauvin supporting me and coming to everything. now instead jen psaki starts now . he will be spending a lot

more time with lawyers and you are. just hours ago trump's team, with pausing the ruling to the d.c. circuit. it rejected his claim of immunity. and earlier today in florida, trump showed up at a federal courthouse, closed-door. the classified evidence in the mar- a-lago case has been busy. but, wait there's more. this thursday, the judges overseeing the hush money case. we will, see we will be watching. this, friday we will be seeing the civil fraud trial. they're expected to deliver the

ruling with trump and whether he can do business. basically, how many millions he will have to pay damages. but any, count it's a packed week. it's a packed week in courtrooms all across the country. but i do want to zero in on what is happening right now. just on the, straight at the supreme court here in washington, -- it is not physically there, but it's something he pushed for today. remember last week, -- on overturning the 2020 election. former president trump has become citizen, trump with all the defenses of any other criminal defendant. citizen trump. not above the, lot not immune. trump for one does not want to imagine. that it's why he is now asking the supreme court to intervene.

we have already heard a lot of the arguments that his team is filing i can only be prosecuted if he is first impeached. the case at the first guess the same,. they also argue that it would usher in a destructive cycle. it opens up any president to prosecution. here's a crazy. thought future presidents could also just avoid breaking the law . they say that trump will immediately be required to bear the burdens of prosecution in trial. he should've thought of that before he overthrew the election . it's a clear effort to delay, delay, delay. it's a big part of their tactic. whether not the court takes it up, it has a huge impact on

whether they know they're casting their ballots for a convicted criminal ballot. they if they decide to accept this, if they take the case, they will get to weigh in on the concept of presidential immunity. they will reject that claim, just like the appeals court did. but the federal election trial will all be delayed all those proceedings unfold. delay, delay, delay. if they declined it, the appeals court would stand. the trial could start sooner. the timeline here is hugely consequential. the struck me when i was reading this today. a relentless quest for immunity, is a window into how the season self. how he will likely lead an impossible second term. according to donald trump and his, lawyers he is above the law. he operates by a different set of rules and all of us. he can

make an act, and because he is a star they let him do. it he can order s.e.a.l. team six to assassinate a political rival, and as long as congress is okay he can avoid prosecution. this is not the first time trump has tried to get out of jail free card and law or life. it's not the first time the supreme court has weighed in on this very issue, regarding donald trump. take a look at this headline. the supreme court just revoked trump's get out of jail free card, says the headline. that is not a headline from the future. that is ron was four years ago. back in 2020, they were related to the investigation into his alleged hush money stormy daniels. he was asked to block a subpoena, claiming you guessed it presidential immunity. the supreme court ruled that a president is not immune from

criminal investigation. he quoted former chief justice that the king is born to power and can do no wrong. and joining me now is the vance from trump the vance. former manhattan, cyrus vance, is now part of the law firm baker mckenzie. the case you want decided here, they actually quote a dissenting opinion. they quote, criminal prosecution can come not prior to the senate trial. we have heard this argument before, but what do you make of it and the ways in which you referenced, you are in there quite a few times. >> good, evening jen thank you for having me.

on my general reaction as we have been here before. in our case, after several years of litigation, started by the former president trump. supreme court ruled as you indicated a sitting president can be investigated, that's not how the supreme court has said. that they said that in the clinton case. so our case reaffirmed in a strong way that president trump is not immune from responding to subpoenas. whether it's from the federal prosecutor, or a state prosecutor. that's where we were when i was a district attorney. that's an air subsequently indicted for tax fraud. it goes without saying that if a president, is not immune from

investigation while he is president. it follows that a president is not immune from prosecution when he is no longer president lia. and i think that the court of appeals decision got it right . i don't know the supreme court will do. . were trump appointees, even in our case i ultimately think that no one among the justices disagreed with the proposition that a president could be investigated with criminal misconduct. there were some complaints but they were not about the substance of the principle that we just articulated. >> as you just said, which is a very important point it has been. argued many times before, chief justice is still the chief

justice of the supreme court. i know you said you don't protect, but even looking at the law here -- to grant in this case immunity. >> i think the precedent that has been set, which was reaffirmed very strongly that justice roberts would leave the supreme court to be comfortable with saying that the president is not immune from prosecution from prior acts i think it's not debated at least in the federal context. the president wouldn't be charged by federal prosecutors, while he is president. but that is not where we are. i think we set a very dangerous precedent. we permit someone who was president who deserves protection from the law and safeguards that ordinary

citizens don't have. but ultimately as the justices have said, the president at heart as a citizen. when he or she is a citizen, they are not immune from responding to lies in the other citizen would be. that would be terrible. >> denying access to records, one of the things that struck me here as a continued argument above the law. what do you think, it tells you the view of how it applies to you at all. >> ultimately i think what has done, it has achieved appeals

and appeals. but i don't think much of the principal i have yet to see a court decision that takes much of the principal. so i would say, again he is remarkably consistent but not very successful. >> that is, fair we will see if that continues to be the case. this is a tactic, i want to ask you have someone who has watched the legal system. whether the supreme court looks at this, or thinks of this. if they take the case it could be delayed past the election. do they factor that in? >> i can't speak knowingly about what the supreme court justices think. but i think they clearly move when they want to. we just saw

with their arguments on whether or not president trump should be disqualified from the presidential ballot. so, in our case as well it moved at lightning speed from the district court decision. then a court of appeals. and then to the supreme court. at one of the time, would be lightning speed. it is probably within a year. so, and court that is quick. but when the supreme court decides and the federal judges decide that they want to decide something because it's urgent, they will do it. now, there are many reasons why perhaps the supreme court doesn't want to rush to a judgment in this case. they would prefer to have this decided at a later time. i think the supreme court is not immune from politics. it's our most political court, and our most learned court.

we shouldn't expect that they may be immune from looking at the landscape and looking at the consequences of their decisions. >> we will all be watching closely, we enjoy having you on and talking about all of this. thank you so much for tracking me to this evening. we appreciate. it coming, up you're looking at a video of the federal courthouse in florida today. a high stakes hearing on his classified documents case. we will tell you what happened and talk about -- the personal attorney doesn't do that many interviews. but he is going to be joining me next. we will be back in 60 seconds.

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criminal case and handling of classified information. the purpose of the closed-door hearing team was basically to discuss why trump's team thinks the defense should have access to various types of classified evidence. it was also a reminder of the unique dangers. remember that he is implored the judge to keep certain documents sealed. out of fear that they could be used to identify more than two dozen witnesses and threaten their safety in testimony. why? that is something that has unfortunately become a pattern to individuals involved in these trump cases. it's also could not be any more different. that difference is something that led to the -- doctor her, points out in his report. after being given multiple chances for classified -- mr.

trump allegedly did the opposite. he not only refused to turn the document for months, but he obstructed justice by listening others to destroy evidence and lie about it. in contrast, these are her's words. mr. biden turned in classified documents consenting to the search multiple locations in the home. hours of volunteer interviews. in other ways he cooperated with the investigation. so please, let's not forget the clear differences in these two cases. that has been a bit overshadowed i, think that's fair to say. joe biden was cleared of wrongdoing. and national defense operation. three counsel withholding or concealing to council false statements, and altering or destroying, mutilating or concealing an object or record. i almost had to take a breath there. it is a lot. joining me now is bob bauer.

thank you for taking the time. >> it's great to be with you. one of the main issues that legal experts had with robert hur's report is about the way that he. as well, the things in the report. you are in the room sitting next to him. i know you said you're not gonna answer about when the transcript of that five hour interview could be released, but i want to know more, if people were to read that transcript what you think their takeaway would be about the performance in conversation. >> he engaged in a vocal operation in the special counsel's report and that is very clear. i was there, i was sitting next to the president

and the interview was consistent with that posture of cooperation. he engaged, i had mentioned before that they indicated to him that the international events must be on the presidents mind. that he would take the president many years back, and that is what the president did. i could tell you that his insinuations or the suggestions in the report simply don't correspond with my recollection of how that interview went. and frankly i don't understand why they are in that report. this is a case that was open and shot from the very first day . he had engaged in any wrongdoing. it was a case of full cooperation. he was turning over the documents that were found.

and that point forward, he cooperated in other ways, beyond the interview beyond the turnover. he was putting it to him in the interview. >> you also said yesterday, i underlined. it that the special counsel was asking bad questions. the thing is, with these reports you only see one side. tell me more about. that why were they battery and precise, i guess? >> i wasn't suggesting that every single question is bad. i was just pointing out, there's a special counsel indicated that somehow he wasn't able to answer questions, directly or clearly and i was suggesting, based on what i cleared the call that the president was not only answering questions he was pointing out flaws and lines of questioning put by the council. on a couple of occasions, he

noted that there was a problem with the question. i didn't deduce from that there's anything wrong with the mental acuity. he had framed his questions poorly but what i was trying to emphasize there was that the president was engage with this interview, he was able to provide's best recollection. and, on a couple of occasions he pointed out that there were problems with the questions put to him. i think everybody in the room recognizes he correctly identified. . >> you and someone who has been on the receiving end of unraveling your questioning. i have, been i know you have been. i relayed it a little bit in that moment. i did want to ask, you i think in that day it was lost in the reporting. it was the day after the october 7th attack. and obviously, the country saw how much that impacted the president. i know from working with him that he is often making calls

with foreign leaders, getting updates. was that part of the day? did he take breaks, what else was happening that day? >> i can say this. we had an appointment and a decision was made. it was the presidents decision, he was going to keep this in when he arrived to the room, he's gonna be council before profuse eating downstairs -- that i name. and it was clear in the proceeding, hours given very engage with these issues. he committed to give you that interview. and he understood that it was important the special counsel that we try to stay on

schedule. scheduling two days five hours, it's not easy to do and rescheduling them is not easy to do, he gave that interview. >>, there were hours an hours of meetings before hand one of the points that you have made another legal minds have said about this report. a goes outside of the scope of norm. his reporting, who we talked. stu it went outside of what would be normal. even for a special counsel. do you think that should be investigated or looked into? the judicial system and -- it's not a positive, you necessarily by the american public at this point. well, and the role that i have all that i can do is pointed out. you had an investigation that ran for 15 months, which

could've been concluded in just a few months. there was never any question that the president had not engaged in criminal wrongdoing. he was a self reporting party here. he had turned the documents over discovery. and yet, somehow in this report the special counsel felt compelled to engage in a irrelevant, often pejorative commentary. i think it's clear, that commentary is inconsistent with the norms. i want to make one point, i want to stress it. the special counsel is bound by the norms and policies of the department, like any other prosecutor. the special counsel regulator provides that he is bound by those norms and policies. he does not have an exemption from them. there is some view, that perhaps because of special counsel, he didn't have to observe them. that is not correct. by the terms in rules, he is to comply with those norms and policies. he didn't. >> do you wish the attorney general had done more? could he have?

>> i am not going to speak to anybody other than the special counsel and his performance in the specific report. the president said the other night that he understood by the attorney general and thought that he not only couldn't understand, but find fault with the attorney general's decision to appoint a special counsel. i was at that point that i got involved. so, i can speak to what the special counsel did. it's a special counsel's responsibility. >> bob bauer, thank you. i know you taught along class before you joined us. so, i appreciate you making the time for us tonight. >> it was a pleasure, thank you so much. >> donald trump doubled down today with. attacking our nato ally, is i'm. not that is not hyperbole. he worked to pat -- anyone leaving nato. and now he is once again sounding the alarm. the senator joins me after a very quick break.

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bay area police departments have to discourage crime, catch criminals, and increase prosecutions. prop e is a smart step our city can take right now to keep san francisco moving in the right direction. please join me in voting yes on prop e. >> in the summer of 2020, walkaway are, zaghar traveled with president biden in the first trip overseas. there are lots of big line head grabbing parts of this. chipped a meeting with queen elizabeth, a summit with russian president vladimir putin. that is a different time. but what's stuck with me was the presidents conversations with other nato and g7 leaders. that was most of the. aaa revealed so much about the impact of donald trump's one term as president.

it was six months after he left office. each of these meetings, president biden reassured allies and key partners that the united states was. back back as an advocate for democracy in the global order. back, as a country that would stand up for territorial integrity. they would stand up for foreign aggressors. but the president was struck by a response he got from world leaders. it's basically, okay, you are back but for how long? so, when donald trump invited russia to attack him over the weekend. that is nato allies. how do you think they heard it? well, we don't have to wonder. foreign minister told the new york times, quote, nato article five has so far been invoked once. was to help the u.s. in afghanistan after 9/11. he sent brigade for a decade. they did not send a bill to washington. republicans here at home, don't seem at all concerned with trump's comments. senator lindsey graham's response, here it is. give me a break i, mean it's trump. all i can say is what trump's president nobody invaded

anybody. i think the point here is to, get people to pay. >> inviting biden and putin to attack, eyes it's just normal stuff here. what about senator marco rubio, was he outraged, was he angry and pounding his fist on a desk. he was not did he go out of way to measure and reassure our closest allies, of course not. >> it's a story that happened in the past with donald trump as president he doesn't talk about a traditional politician. we've already been through this and i think people are going to figure out right now. >> trump was telling a story okay. that is a pretty scary story. especially, for allies around the world. by the, way senator rubio help draft and pass a bipartisan bill last year. preventing the president from leaving nato. i wonder why he felt compelled to do that. >> joining me now is the co- sponsor that bill. democratic senator, tim kaine. my home senator.

he served on the armed services committee. , so senator i don't think we should ever be surprised necessarily by what president trump does. but it is disappointing even for me. i was at the state department in 2014. it was the first russian invasion of ukraine. and if you hear comments like, that from senators who have long been supporters of the protection of the territorial integrity of ukraine. i guess, we shouldn't be surprised. but i just love to know what your thoughts are when you hear the responses to what trump had to say. >> well, jen it's really disappointing. people aren't surprised that donald trump says what he says. but what our allies want to see is what the american public, through their representatives in congress think. i gave a speech about the 70th anniversary in nato and paris in number of years ago. i was struck by the audience's reaction, which is that donald trump is one guy.

is his election a deeper reflection that either congress or the american public no longer values alliances. >> alliances are our most important military assets. our personnel, our platforms. it's the alliances that most frightens the dictators. the russia's, the north korea's . but one colleagues of mine who even joined with me to make clear that no president can get out of nato with the two thirds vote of the senate. they joined with me for a reason. i started this effort in 2018 with john mccain. and after he passed senator rubio picked up the mantle. they joined me because they wanted to send a message that alliances are important. and when they suddenly have a front runner in the presidential race who is willing to tear up alliances,

the fact that they crave and bowed to his latest utterance is disappointing. the good news, we have a guardrail in place. we will be able to stop him from . will stop him or anyone else who wants to do. it >> it's a really important. point that guardrail is important. you know very well, while this bill was senator rubio who just made these storytelling points. very strangely, it's important. trump could also, or anyone who wants to could weaken u.s. support by doing a range of things. pulling back troops in our presence in the number of eastern european countries. what concerns you that maybe isn't covered and we need to be mindful of. it stops this from unilaterally drawing from. nato but they can try to send us

a budget that defends in europe . it's on congress's shoulders to provide the chat. but we do this every year. the presidents send us this bill, it has everything we don't. like congress changes. that we send the bill back to the -- we will have to do that this year. if a president trump or president anyone in the future where to want to reduce our support for our allies, the burden shifts over to the article one branch. it's the branch that it's the budgeting branch. our most salient power here, i think that the overwhelming support from our nato bill so that there's bipartisan support and both allies. there are some lab pro trump voices, but they are not the majority. it is still in support of democratic allies,

the norms are stronger together. and we are going to have to be delicate. going forward we can't just assume that everybody is on board with this. and then for president trump's comments on the weekends, we are going to have to work extra hard to send the right message to our allies. >> section important point. senator, we are gonna have you back on to talk about israel. i know you are obviously working on the supplemental bill. we had to talk about trump's comments. it's important for people to understand. thank you so much for joining me this evening. it's a busy, busy week for you. >> glad, what we are debating on . do we link on four allies or not. i hope the senate will pass a bill in the next day or so that we will. >> thank you so much senator, great to see you. >> one of donald trump's mega donors has a super bowl ad for rfk junior. is that a little crazy? trust me, it is.

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♪♪ meanwhile, at a vrbo... when other vacation rentals aren't what they're cracked up to be, try one where you know what you'll get. >> super bowl ads don't typically jump into the political fray, for good reason. but last, night one certainly did. a sporting independent presidential candidate and well- known anti-vaxxer, robert kennedy junior effectively copied one of the most iconic political ads of all-time. an ad for rfk junior, president

john f. kennedy. as you can see the shots were pretty much lifted and re- edited from the original campaign ad from 1960. except of, course with rfk junior's picture. it was super imposed in the place of jfk. it's pretty clear it was intentionally trying to capitalize on the candidates very famous last name. let's just say the, kennedy family didn't exactly appreciate . -- the son of eunice kennedy had this to say last night on twitter. my cousin super bowl ad used uncles faces in our mother. she would be appalled by's deadly health care of, use respect for science, vaccines and health care equity. she strongly supported my health care work, which he opposes. >> given his extremist views on vaccines, the family has good reason of course to be so appalled. when it comes to political dynasties, the kennedys have

long been a part of -- not just a political conversation, but they have also lead the fight for better health care. they promote modern medicine and advanced research. efforts they continue with many generations of kennedys. today when it comes to rfk junior's bid for president, what's even more jarring than all of that as perhaps the kind of people that have been pushing, and most importantly finding his candidacy. it all seemed to start with trump ally, steve bannon. yes, that steve bannon. there is only one. he encouraged candidate to run for months before he declared. why? bannon believed that candidate would be a useful quote, chaos agent. he could stoke anti vax sentiments in the 2024 race. how dark is that? in fact, rfk junior was reportedly approached by trump's advisers by joining the republican ticket as trump's running mate. something that steve bannon said, what help trump win a name

massive landslide over joe biden. likewise, rfk junior has been endorsed by -- including timothy mullen. i guy who gave $20 million to group supporting trump in 2020. $20 million. he is already donated at least 15 million to his supporting kennedy. and yes, that is the very same super pac that paid $7 million for the super bowl ad. and other, words mega republicans are propping up the campaign of a fringe candidate, anti vaxxer who happens to have a very famous last name. falsely portraying him by the way, as a legitimate air to the kennedy legacy. robert kennedy junior may be a spoiler who could tip the election in trump's favor. his candidacy as an affront to his own family.

not to mention an insult to the legacy of jfk. in fact, in a speech back in 1961 president kennedy issued a warning about the dangers of conspiracy minded members of the political fringe. >> in the most critical periods of our nation's, history on the fringes of our society they were thought to escape the fringes of our society, finding a simple solution. or a convenient scapegoat. . at, times these fanatics have achieved a temporary success, among those who lacked the will of the wisdom the face unpleasant fact or unsolved problems. >> now, rfk junior who is a member of his own family may become the very thing that president kennedy warned us about more than six decades ago . we're gonna talk much more about rfk junior and his impact , it's important to pay

attention to this when we come back.

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>> so, part of the problem is robert f. kennedy feels perfectly content to run a campaign that play spoiler to the election hopes. it's an donald trump back to the white house. he's won democratic legacy family, but 24 years ago he was singing a much different tune. >> despite fading pool, numbers the core support behind the candidacy is making liberal democrats unhappy. >> there is a political reality here that is his candidacy could drawn up votes in certain key states from al gore to, give the entire election to george w. bush. >> nadler says that is not his problem. >> sound familiar? >> joining me, now someone who's done a lot of reporting on rfk junior. msnbc correspondent, on hillyard. so, you have gone to these rallies, you have visited with

people who are supporters. what is it, like one of the people like? . some 2016, trump 2020 rallies . >> this is an eclectic group. here there's a group of women. they are socializing, it looks like they've been a long time friend. you see them there. only two of them in fact know each other coming into the night. one of them told me, if it wasn't for rfk junior this year they would vote for biden. they said they would not vote at all. the one thing that united them, though was anti vax, anti covid vaccine. rfk junior, back at the time of approving the covid vaccine. he said it was a mockery of science. it's important, listening to one of his speeches. it's somebody who was environmental air.

the income inequality gap, again at the same time not anti vax but expressed -- unique are people bringing together these forms. >> quite a bond over i guess pro russian anti vax. it's very interesting to hear who these people are. you also spend a lot of time following the trump team campaign. as you, know there's always breaking news in that world. michael wally who is with trump, as daughter-in-law as the co- chair. tell us more about that and -- jen, he is still not affirmatively said that he is going to resign. >> she's still hanging in. >> she still hanging in there.

>> this is not donald trump's decision to the chairs going to be. >> you get to pick who runs the party. as one told me the other day, -- drew mckissick is a south carolina chairman. he is currently the co-chair to run miss mcdaniel. i've been told by multiple sources, he has been making calls to other members who is the hundred and 68 member body of the rnc to choose the chair. he endorses michael while he can endorse laura trump to be the co-chair. but it's going to be up for several of them. hesitancy, letting donald trump be the decider here. he will be the crucial nine month. it is a congressional race.

it is a real job to be a deal this year of the chair. whatever your politics are, what is the concern you are hearing about the impact on the party apparatus? as you, said it's a real. job you have to do and implement things. >> right, at the end of 2023 they only had 1 million dollars cash on hand. the democrats and joe biden have a leg up. they've been able to jointly fund-raiser the dnc for months now. compare that to the rnc with the fact that nikki haley is not yet dropped out of the race. the trump campaign has not been able to set up a joint fund raising committee with the rnc. so, none of this is have viciously been allowed to take place. which has under their ability to fund-raise. and for the rnc, they are key at not only the county levels, the state level for their parties. again, it's much more than the white house. you are talking about who is going to organizationally be running the state parties in places like arizona, georgia, michigan. arizona and michigan who lost their gop chairs, this

is important for the future of the party. and nine months, out they still don't have an exact plan. >> you need money to political campaigns. vaughn hillyard, you work so hard out. there thank you so much for bringing us insights. >> you have one more thing from rachel maddow. this is coming up after a quick break.

>> and senator dianne died last, year there is tense speculation over who california gavin newsom would appoint. a black woman to fill. despite he kept his word of openly lgbtq+ united states senator. the first black lesbian to serve in congress in american

history. the only black women serving in the senate right now. senator butler is not reelecting, and the race for the sea is really heating. up congressman schiff, congressman katie porter and barbara lee are vying for that seat. but until that race has decided in november, senator butler will continue to represent a great state of california. and all of, that is why i'm really looking forward to talking with her this week at howard university. it'll be her first major sit- down interview. me at noon eastern, msnbc. i am hi jen that's awesome. i'm not going question you how you got that interview, i'm very jealous. >> thank you, she's the kind of person you're excited to see in