apart. the message discipline has been pretty good there. you know, she's going to keep probably campaigning until the plane doesn't fly. right now, she's adding donors, adding voters, people to her political network, but a loss in her home state, particularly a big one, might change her calculation. >> she has the money to stay in, and now there is a trial date for donald trump. maybe she wants to hang around to see what's there in court, as well. senior nbc news national politics reporter jonathan allen, thank you for being with us this morning. thanks to all of you for getting up "way too early" on this friday morning and all week long. "morning joe" starts right now. donald trump lost in 2018. he lost it for us in 2020. he lost it for us in 2022. but look at what happened last week. last week, he loses his case on immunity. he is now going to be citizen trump. he's got his first court case march 25th. march and april, he is in one

court case. may and june, he is in another. he's already said he's going to spend most of this year in a courtroom, not on a campaign trail. that's not a way you win. but then you go and look at the fact, we lost a vote on mayorkas. we lost a vote on israel. the rnc chair lost her job. and trump had his fingerprints on all of it. everything he touches, we lose! >> nikki haley laying out all of the issues with donald trump's candidacy and his grip on the republican party. as she mentioned, we now know the former president will stand trial on criminal charges in six weeks after a judge in new york dismissed delay tactics from trump's legal team. meanwhile, donald trump is facing another ruling today that could cost him hundreds of millions of dollars and put an end to his business empire in

new york. we'll get expert legal analysis on both of those cases. as well as the fiery testimony yesterday from fulton county district attorney fani willis. her appearance on the witness stand came in a hearing connected to the georgia election interference case. it was incredible. plus, a key source for house republicans in their investigation into president biden and his family is now charged with lying to the fbi. we'll go through that significant development straight ahead. good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it is friday, february 16th. wow, willie, what a friday it is. there is so much to cover. with us, we have the host of "way too early," white house bureau chief at politico, jonathan lemire. and pulitzer prize winning columnist at "the washington post," eugene robinson. willie, when fani willis stood up, came into the room and said,

"i'm here. i'll take the stand," i thought, oh, boy, everybody sit back. this is going to be something. she was defiant. she was upset. she was angry. many would say she was asked a lot of degrading questions, and the entire thing was a bit of a you know what show that she doesn't have time for, but she gave it to them. i'll tell ya that. >> yeah, it was an incredibly dramatic scene. as she testified later, she'd been pacing back and forth in her office listening to the previous testimony. she went in and, remember, she was not supposed to appear. she wasn't going to appear for the subpoena, and she said, "i'm ready. i went to do it." went and sat down in the witness stand. it'll continue this morning. she's not done yet. fulton county district attorney fani willis took the stand in atlanta and delivered testimony in the evidentiary hearing regarding the misconduct allegations against her.

this is an effort by donald trump and several of his co-defendants to have willis disqualified and the election interference case dismissed. d.a. willis, who initially tried to quash the subpoena for her testimony, withdrew that objection yesterday and accused the defense of lying about her relationship with special prosecutor nathan wade. >> mr. wade visit you at the place you laid your head? >> when? >> has he ever visited you? >> let's be clear. let me tell you which one you lied in. >> i'm going to object. >> this is the truth. it is a lie! it is a lie. >> d.a. willis holding up three pleadings filed by the defense there. last month, trump co-defendant, michael roman, a long-time republican opposition researcher who worked in the trump administration, accused willis and wade of having an improper personal relationship and claimed wade was hired for the job because of it. willis did admit to the relationship, but she said it

started after wade was hired. trump and several co-defendants joined roman's motion to try to remove willis. when roman's attorney, ashley merchant, accused willis of not wanting to turn over records, willis reminded her that she is not the one charged with a crime. >> i object to you getting records. you've been intrusive into people's personal lives. you're confused. you think i'm on trial. these people are on trial for trying to steal an election in 2020. i'm not on trial, no matter how hard you try to put me on trial. >> earlier, mr. wade took the stand and testified to the timeline of his relationship with willis and how the pair split the costs of trips and their dates with willis, he said, paying in cash. she confirmed that later. before that, a former friend of d.a. willis, who also worked inside the d.a.'s office, she testified that willis and wade began dating in 2019, disputing the timeline the couple had given. when pressed, it was revealed that she had a falling outwith

willis after she was forced out of the d.a.'s office in 2022. >> mm-hmm. >> okay. with all that said, let's bring in former u.s. attorney and msnbc legal analyst joyce vance. former u.s. attorney for the district of columbia, glen kirshner, and also legal analyst lisa rubin. we have great legal minds here. joyce, i'll start with you. the conventional wisdom seemed to be after mr. wade's testimony, some said this case was dead because of inconsistencies in the way they were describing the relationship, because of the previous testimony of the ms. yurties. did the testimony after mr. wade's do anything to change your mind about that? >> it may have changed the public impression of the hearing

but this is whether the defendant could prove a conflict of interest existed under law that warranted disqualification for fani willis. at least based on what we heard yesterday, maybe they'll have more today, but they came up short. they were short in wade's testimony. the friend who took the stand was impeached. this is the thing you don't want to have happen, but it turns out this witness resigned in lieu of being fired from the district attorney's office. that proved her testimony about the timeline of the relationship went into doubt. the end of yesterday, it was a nothing burger. there was nothing to show that fani willis and nathan wade had the financial conflict of interest that georgia law recognizes, something akin to a prosecutor who only gets paid if they win a case. that's the classic case in georgia law where there is a conflict that results in

disqualification. that wasn't there yesterday in the courtroom. >> glenn, joyce is right, we got deep in the weeds about how much cash did you pay for this dinner a couple of years ago, and d.a. willis was saying, i don't remember. i don't keep receipts. she keeps large amounts of cash at home and often pays her way in cash, splitting the bill with mr. wade on the dates. you were mired in all these details. to pull back what'd you see yesterday? what were the stakes? did you see anything that would get rid of this case, that would push it down to someone else who may not take it up? >> willie, as is always the case, i agree with joyce. this is going nowhere. it will very soon be yesterday's news because there is no conflict, financial or otherwise. there's nothing that i saw in the testimony thus far, recognizing additional witnesses will testify today. the hearing is expected to go into next week.

i have seen nothing in the case. i don't think the defense will be able to carry the burden. what i do think is what we saw yesterday is a tribute to the value of cameras in the courtroom. as you watched d.a. willis testify, i would have hard-pressed to believe that anything she said was a misrepresentation, was inaccurate, or was untruthful. she was angry. she had every right to be angry. she was holding up public court filings that she contended contained all sorts of lies. once they go out into the public square, people are going to believe those lies. she was hot but had every right to the hot. she remained respectful but forceful, and i don't think this hearing will win the defense any relief whatsoever. >> it's so interesting because

you could definitely get from her testimony, lisa, she was angry for a number of reasons. many of them she didn't bring up. she obviously doesn't like being lied about. she obviously doesn't like having her personal life dragged out into the open, and also lied about. she mentioned several times she's had to move a lot because of death threats even before the election trial began, because of other trials she's presided over. this has been a tough job for her. then to hear, you know, this sideshow happen, to try to delay the election interference case -- this is her point of view -- she was just, you know what, absolutely po'd. got up on the stand because she was like,i have to tell my own story. >> the attorneys seemed bumbling, unprepared, and

completely surprised she took the stand and had absolutely nothing prepared for her. they kept asking her the same questions over and over again, and they would talk about her cash, the cash that she kept in her home. through the course of her life, she had $500 during hard times up to $15,000 maybe in her apartment during really good times. maybe on average, $6,000 to $9,000. she never walked around with it except on vacation. at the most, she spent $2,500 in cash on a trip, and that was to pay him back for it. most of the time, she didn't carry about this cash, but she kept it where she lived. let's talk about where she lived. she couldn't live in her home. she couldn't live in her home because this election interference trial has caused a danger to her life. if you're wondering why she's

angry, this has led to an upheaval in her life in so many different ways, to serve and to try to take this case to fruition, and then to have this happen, that would cause someone to be very, very angry. i'll get to a question, but i want to point out, you know it's bad when you turn on fox news and they start talking about her demeanor, her behavior, her looks. i mean, it shows there's probably a problem with the case they think they have against her. she was fiery. she said important things. i think she set herself up for a lot of criticism, but i think this is a woman who doesn't give a damn about that. how do you think she did, lisa, in the face of everything that came at her yesterday? would you have adjusted anything? >> you know, it is really hard to say, mika. it is hard to criticize somebody's performance given the accusations that have been

thrown at her and nathan wade. if fani willis were my client, i probably would have advised against two things. i would have advised against some of the shows of angry, and i would have advised her against some of the detail that she provided. there were times in which that detail was helpful and humanizing to her, and there were other times where it was just unnecessary explanation. almost gave the other attorneys more license to probe into her personal life. but i'm glad that you put the focus on her safety and what she was going through at the time. let me add an additional lens of covid. when she moved into the safe house which became the subject of questions yesterday, she reminded everybody who was watching, that was peak covid. that was a period of time where she was, as she put it, really lonely. because she was living alone in the safe house, her father

continued to live in her primary residence, and she seemed in that moment very human. but it's easy for me as a lawyer and litigator who watched this to criticize in retrospect. it is another thing to have lived this. i think to bring a different lens to it, one of the reasons that the attorneys on the trump side seem so flummoxed by her is they lack a cultural competency. depending on how you grew up, where you grew up, and even things like who your community was, the practices that fani willis was talking about in terms of keeping cash in your home, those might resonate differently with you depending on your upbringing. so a number of attorneys in that courtroom were stymied by it, and that didn't make sense to her. when she explained how she was raised by her father, and how it was important to him so see her grow up, a, independent and financial independent as a black

woman, that made the difference for me. i think for others watching, as well. >> gene, we have to step back. we watched for hours questions about whether d.a. willis split the check for dinner on the trip to belize, or whether mr. wade paid for dinner on the cruise to the bahamas. let's take a step back. this is a case in which donald trump is on tape asking the secretary of state of georgia to steal the election. let's remember what we're really talking about here. i understand this is a tactic the trump team is trying to get this case moved out, at least from d.a. willis' office and maybe gotten rid of all together. this is a case that scares donald trump. that's why they're resorting to these tactics. he's on tape doing it. >> he's on tape doing it. these are state charges which, if he were re-elected president, he couldn't attempt to pardon himself from.

he would be -- if he were convicted. so this is serious for trump. as you said, there's evidence on tape. that's about as good as it gets. you know, i think those trump lawyers had no idea what was coming at them yesterday. >> so true. >> i just don't think they anticipated that at all. i think they probably thought that she would -- it sounded as if the judge might rule that she did not have to testify. i think that's what they were anticipating, and she shows up. she sits down without being instructed to do so. she's like, come on. come on. i'm here, and we're going -- we are going to do this. so it seemed to be pretty disastrous day for the trump lawyers. i did not -- as a non-lawyer, i did not hear any of the sort of conflict of interest that you

would need, the financial conflict of interest you would need under georgia law to actually have her bounced as a prosecutor. we'll see what the judge does. question for joyce vance, how much more of this does the judge intend or have to put up with? i heard at the end, he was asking each side how many more witnesses do you want to call? is this going to go on and on and on, or can he or should he just cut this off at some point? one thinks that everybody has heard enough at this point. >> right. we've heard far more about fani willis' personal life than she should ever have been forced to divulge. it is a great question for this reason, this is a judge who, although he is young, is savvy. he is a former federal prosecutor. he's building a record. he's giving the defense here, giving michael roman's lawyers,

every opportunity to put evidence into the record to show that there's a conflict of interest. if they continue to fail to do that, if this judge rules, as i think we're expecting him to do, that although fani willis may have shown some poor judgment in her personal life, dating someone she worked with, that nothing rises to the level of disqualification, then there will be an evidentiary record that will support the judge's decision if there is a conviction and the case goes on appeal. that's what trial judges think about. am i creating a record that will get me affirmed on appeal? so as much as this is a painful spectacle in many ways, and certainly no one would hope, or at least no one who thinks about the criminal justice system in the way that i do would ever want to ever see a prosecutor basically persecuted as willis has done, this may benefit the case in the long run.

>> we'll see what happens today. we'll talk about this a lot more. there's also a lot more other news to cover, especially in the legal realm. a major setback for house republicans in the impeachment inquiry into president biden. it has to do with hunter. huge news there. also, the trial was set for donald trump in the stormy daniels case. that will move forward. we'll have more on all of that in just one minute. why choose a sleep number smart bed? can it keep me warm when i'm cold? wait, no, i'm always hot. sleep number does that.

can i make my side softer? i like my side firmer. sleep number does that. can it help us sleep better and better? please? sleep number does that. 94 percent of smart sleepers report better sleep. now, save 50% on the sleep number limited edition smart bed. plus, free home delivery when you add any base. ends president's day. beautiful shot as the sun just begins to come up over new york city. it's 6:19 on a friday morning. a judge in new york has deied donald trump's bid to dismiss the charges against him in his hush money trial, ordering jury selection to begin march 25th. trump attorney todd blanche argued his legal team needed more time to prepare, citing trump's other legal cases, and said that date would be, vote,

election interference because of the primaries that month. with the former president seated at the defense table, the judge dismissed the arguments, saying the defense has had plenty of time to prepare. trump faces 34 felony charges which center on allegations he falsified business records to cover up hush money payments to adult fim star stormy daniels during the 2016 presidential election. trump's legal team argued no crime was committed. the trial is expected to last six weeks. lisa rubin, you were in the courtroom yesterday. >> i was. >> it sounds like the judge there rejected the idea that it was election interference. they'd chosen this date deeper into march, not around super tuesday, not a particularly busy time of the campaign season the end of march there. what else did you hear from the judge there? >> i saw a judge who was much closer to judge kaplan, who presided over the e. jean carroll trials, than, for

example, engoron, who we are expected to hear from today, and gave the attorneys a lot of latitude. he was allowing todd blanche to make a record with respect to why he felt it was unfair to go to trial. at one point, he said, mr. blanche, i've heard this all before from you. tell me something new. when he didn't hear it, he said, mr. blanche, sit down, don't interrupt me. you have a judge in command of his courtroom. more importantly, you have a district attorney's team who is really well prepared with receipts. yesterday was sort of the revenge of the receipt, so to speak. you had these folks in fani willis' case come in with all the receipts they thought showed something, and they were actually travel receipts that didn't amount to much. here, the new york d.a.'s case, they really had their evidence. they had a filing that blanche

signed before judge canon that they used to illustrate why the argument he was making to judge merchan about the florida case wasn't in good faith. they had an email, as you referenced, where blanche in 2023 proposed the march 25th date, saying it'd cause minimal disruption to the primary schedule. it is true, as blanche said, between march 1st and march 25th, there are 42 primaries or caucuses. but as merchan reminded him, you knew there was going to be a trial in this case. i set a firm date for trial, and this date is partially of your own choosing. you don't have anyone to blame here, mr. blanche, other than yourself. >> it is, of course, history. donald trump will be the first former president to sit in a trial criminally charged. he also, of course, is the republican frontrunner. we heard from nikki haley at the top of our hour talking about that court date and suggesting

that's the reason why she's staying in the race, unspoken, but just in case something happens. glenn, let's bring you in on this discussion, the matters in new york. first of all, to you think the march 25th date will stick, more or less? we know the trump team signalled they'll do their best to push it back. once the trial does commence, give us a sense as to what it'd look like and how long it'd last. >> first of all, jonathan, i do think it will stick. judge merchan, as lisa said, seems to be no nonsense, and he kind of ended the hearing, as i read the reporting, by telling donald trump's lawyer, when the lawyer launched into what sounded more like a donald trump 2:00 a.m. post, saying things like, "nothing like this should ever go on in this country." he said, "you know what? that is not a legal argument. i'll see you march 25th,"

indicating judge merchan believes this is in the chute to go to trial. not to mix apples and oranges, but the unabated string of losses in civil cases that donald trump has suffered. e. jean carroll one and two, the fraud trial which he lost on the merits and we're waiting to see how large the money judgment might be that's handed down by judge engoron, and, actually, another case trump lost by proxy, the trump organization criminal conviction, that's his namesake, his organization convicted of a 15-year long scheme to defraud in the first degree, i think all of those losses are important foreshadowing for what is about to hit donald trump in the criminal cases. when the rules of evidence and the rule of law applies, he will have nowhere to run and nowhere to hide. if you think civil verdicts were dramatic that were entered against donald trump, i don't think you've seen anything yet. wait for these criminal trials to get under way. speaking of the civil

verdict, we should be hearing from judge engoron today. i mean, word is that he perhaps could be paying 100, 200, maybe up to $300 million, depending on what the judgment is. it feels that that could ultimately get to trump as much as some of these federal counts have against him. it could really absolutely, completely stop his ability to do business and make money. in that case, lisa, what can we expect? is there any possibility he will have a light judgment? >> no, i don't think there's a possibility of a light judgment. mika, even more so than the money, some of the injunctive relief that the attorney general's office is asking for will seem more draconian to donald trump. not just to trump himself. i think at this point in his

life, it probably doesn't matter all that much to donald trump, for example, if he's barred from being an officer or director of a new york corporation. but it matters a lot to him whether his sons are banned from that same activity, even if that ban is only for five years, as the attorney general has proposed. that's because don and eric are not just the nominal heads of the trump organization now. if their testimony is to be believed from the civil fraud trial, they are in charge. if don and eric can't be officers and directors of new york companies, who is in charge of the trump organization? it can't be anybody with the last name trump. as we all know, ivanka moved to florida and distanced herself from the family business, political and financial, and that means the whole future of the trump organization in terms of its governance by a family member is really at issue today. i agree with glenn, not only are these civil cases a foreshadowing of what could be to come in the criminal cases, i

think they have the potential to unhinge and upset donald trump more so than the prospect of jail time or a conviction, because they -- >> i agree. >> -- go to the heart of what matters to him, the money. >> yeah. all these cases, it's women holding him accountable, which i think irks him in a big way. joyce vance, your thoughts on that? also, i'm curious, watching the testimony yesterday in atlanta, what did you make of the trump attorneys? did they seem prepared? did they seem, like, talented attorneys? >> so i'll take the second part of that first, mika. i mean, we saw a mixed bag yesterday. donald trump's lawyer, steve sado, when he questioned witnesses, was in a different vain than michael roman's lawyer. she was, as you pointed out,

very surprised when fani willis took the witness stand. prosecutors are usually supposed to have thick skin. they're supposed to be professional in a courtroom. fani willis came in hot, and the lawyers for michael roman weren't prepared to deal with that situation. in some ways, willis' willingness to humanize herself and to jump out of her prosecutorial shoes a little bit and just to be a woman who had been wrongfully accused, i think showed some of the weaknesses in that defense team. it'll be interesting to see how that plays out. there are a lot of different defense lawyers. in this case, when it goes to trial, there's some possibility they'll end up stepping on each other, that some of them will be weaker than others. as a prosecutor, that's something that you take into account as part of your strategic preparation for a case. willis learned a lot yesterday about who she's up against. you know, in the new york case, i think glenn is very savvy when

he points out that the cumulative effect of the civil cases has to begin to wear on donald trump, and what's really happening is they're breaking down this myth that he's invincible in court. whether it's through delay or bluster or his insistence that cases go his way, that, finally, donald trump is meeting the rule of law. it hasn't gone very well for him in the e. jean carroll case. it's very likely that new york attorney general letitia james will walk away victorious in the civil fraud case. that sets donald trump up for the next act in his legal troubles. the four criminal cases, it looks likely that two of them may have a chance of going to trial before the election. this is donald trump versus the rule of law in full force. >> absolutely. he has to show up for the stormy trial. he's got to be there every day, so that -- it's not going to sit well with him. joyce vance, thank you very much.

lisa rubin, thank you, both, very much for being on this morning. glenn, stick around. we've got something to talk to you about here. the so-called informant who accused joe biden and his son hunter of accepting brides has been indicted on two counts of feeding the fbi false information. what that stunning development could mean for the biden impeachment effort by house republicans. plus, "the washington post"'s david ignatius joins us from the sidelines of the munich security conference in germany, where the wars in the middle east and eastern europe are expected to dominate the conversation among world leaders. "morning joe" is back in a moment.

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today, fbi officials declared the record has not been disproven and is currently being used in an ongoing investigation. the confidential human source who provided information about then vice president biden being involved in a criminal bribery scheme is a trusted, highly credible informant who has been used by the fbi for over ten years and has been paid over six figures. these are facts, and no amount of spin and, frankly, lies from the white house or congressional democrats can change this information. >> oversight committee chair republican james comer, that was in june of last year, touting the testimony of an fbi informant. now, in a major setback for house republicans' impeachment inquiry into president biden, and exactly to what he just

said, that former fbi informant has been indicted by a justice department special counsel for allegedly lying to the bureau about president biden and his son hunter, their overseas business dealings. 43-year-old alexander smirnov is facing two counts of allegedly feeding the fbi false and derogatory information about the president and his son during the 2020 presidential campaign. smirnov is also facing one count of making a false statement to a government agent and falsification of records in a federal investigation. smirnov's account was critical to the republicans' impeachment inquiry into president biden. smirnov was arrested in las vegas after an overseas trip. a judge ordered him to remain in detention pending a hearing in federal court set for next

tuesday in las vegas. a source familiar with the matter told nbc news that hunter biden does not know the individual who was charged and was not believe he ever met him. house oversight committee ranking member, democrat jamie raskin, called for an end to the impeachment inquiry into president biden following smirnov's indictment. chair james comer is denying smirnov's testimony was integral, even though you heard him say that, to the impeachment inquiry, and claims they have other evidence for their case. glenn, i'm just curious, i think lying to the fbi, that's bad, right? >> that is bad, yes. that falls under the category of bad. >> so -- >> mika, here's the thing, any time you're dealing with a source, the three most important

words are corroboration, corroboration, and corroboration. the fact that the republicans would rely on somebody like this, who has now been criminally indicted for providing false information about the hunter bidens and potentially, by extension, president biden, the fact that republican members of congress would rely on this raises the question, you know, are they sort of irretrievably incompetent, or do they just turn a blind eye to the credibility of the evidence that they're using in what is one of the most consequential moves. an impeachment hearing against a president of the united states, you know, it just shows that the republican party, or at least certain factions, continue to circle the drain. you have to wonder, is there anybody in the republican party that's willing to do the hard work of pulling them out from

this nosedive? this is beyond embarrassing. it is just not governance. it is, you know, inexcusable. >> john lemire, this was, as we just heard in the sound bite from james comer, this testimony was viewed as a smoking gun. look, the president of the united states, joe biden, took $5 million in bribes and hunter biden was involved. this is the latest, we should point out, in star witnesses who have sort of been vaporized by actual evidence. there is the guy, i don't know if they found him, found out to be an agent of the chinese government, also an arms dealer with iran. he was the star witness. now, it was mr. smirsmirnov. we find out he was actually making it all up. they've hung their hats in this investigation, desperately, on liars time and time again this. >> all-star team of criminally

indicted witnesses. you know, it underscores how shoddy this case has been from the beginning. this is happening because, look, hunter biden, in his own admission, made deals that were unsavory while his father was vice president, but there's never been any evidence that joe biden himself was involved. republicans spent years trying to prove it. this was a central part of their attacks in the 2020 campaign. they didn't come up with them and haven't now. this impeachment inquiry is proceeding mostly because donald trump wants it to. donald trump doesn't want to be the only candidate this november to potentially have been impeached or to be in the middle of some sort of investigation. trump, of course, impeached twice and now has all these criminal probes. nothing criminal about what president biden has done. republicans even despite this devastating and embarrassing setback yesterday, say they're going to forge forward. i will say this, from the white house perspective, a couple senior aides i spoke to last night again reiterated, like, no

president wants to be impeached or even go through an impeachment inquiry. it is a bad use of time and resources. it'll generate undeniably bad headlines, but they think this is going to backfire and blow up in the republicans' faces. polling suggests it wasn't helping them anyway, and now it'll probably get worse for the gop. >> former assistant u.s. attorney for the district of columbia, glenn kirschner, thank you very much. we want to turn to breaking news out of russia. jailed opposition leader, russian opposition leader, alexei navalny is now dead. that is according to the russian prison service. he was 47 years old. he spent his final months behind bars as the russian leader reshaped the country to rally behind his war in ukraine. we have a lot more to talk about in terms of his life. this is a man who really dedicated his life to opposing

putin's reign. he rose to prominence as russia's most outspoken kremlin critic. he was poisoned at one point. he'd been imprisoned many times. he even tried to run against vladimir putin in 2018 in the presidential election but was barred from entering the race. they kept finding reasons to throw him in jail. alexei navalny is dead. joining us from the munich security conference is columnist and associate editor for "the washington post," david ignatius, who can give us a lot more insight into this breaking story. david, tell us what you know about navalny. it appears he just collapsed while he was in prison. they tried, they say, to resuscitate him. >> mika, first thing to say, obviously, is that this is a terrible tragedy.

navalny was an extraordinarily courageous man. the russian government tried to poison him. he barely survived, taken out of russia on a plane to germany. recuperation was difficult. people really weren't sure he'd make it. what did he do when he recovered? he went right back to russia. he went right back to stare vladimir putin in the face. it was an act of really extraordinary bravery. i can remember pictures of him walking down the aisle of the plane as it flew into moscow, getting off that plane, getting off to what he knew would be his arrest, his imprisonment, and perhaps he imagined his eventual death. first of all, a remarkable man of our times who dared to challenge really the most desponic leader in the world, vladimir putin. this event, if confirmed, is

going to remind americans and the world what kind of regime vladimir putin's russia is. that it would take a brave man like this, someone who fought for democracy, someone -- if you go back and see navalny's videos, they're funny to watch. he makes such fun of the thievery by putin and putin's gang of oligarchs and mistresses. i think americans will look at this news and realize, putin's regime is not just another foreign problem. it is something that americans have an obligation, with all free people, to resist. i hope it will affect congressional debate on funding for ukraine, which is bravely standing up to putin, much as navalny did. >> we've got richard engel joining us now. he is in kyiv covering the war there. richard, you have covered alexei navalny for a long time. you covered russia for a long time. what's your reaction to the news

here? >> reporter: well, i think it is going to be difficult to verify the account of the prison authority. alexei navalny was relatively recently moved to this penal colony in siberia, where the prison authority say he died. the prison authorities say that he went for a walk, and that he immediately became unwell after this walk, that he lost consciousness. that medical staff at this penal colony, which is north of the arctic circle, about 2,000 miles away from the facility where he had been previously held near moscow, that he was given medical treatment but that he -- it was unsuccessful and that he died and the prison authorities confirm his death. there are going to be many people skeptical of this account, and it'll be very hard to know what actually happened in a closed off, siberian penal colony that is known as the

arctic wolf, a facility for about 1,000 men in siberia. >> richard engel, i know you have to run. we'll check back with you in a bit. david ignatius, back to you, to the point you were making, which i think is so important. we've heard even this week, united states senators praising vladimir putin around their objections to funding for ukraine. we had senator tuberville saying -- excuse me, that vladimir putin is, quote, on top of his game right now. ron johnson praising vladimir putin. obviously, donald trump has a great affinity for vladimir putin as an authoritarian. perhaps this moment, alexei navalny, as you say, we throw the word courage around a lot, but he lived with real courage. standing up to a man who literally tried to kill him again and again and again. as richard points out, the idea that he went for a walk and suddenly dropped dead, obviously, we can throw some question to that, as well.

>> i hope that the example of navalny will inspire russians, first of all, because he was a demonstration of the russian spirit, that russian yearning for something better than what they have. and the absolute determination to try to get it. i hope it will shame americans who have said, as you quoted, willie, these extraordinary things seeming to support vladimir putin, i hope those comments stick in the throats of people who made them as they see this news of a brave, determined russian fighter dying in prison. and i hope in this broad debate about american power, whether it's important for the united states to be involved in the world, this will be a reminder of the difference that our idea of freedom, which inspired navalny, inspires the hundreds of people who are in prisons around the world today for fighting for decent values, for

free press, i hope it will remind americans that what we say and do matters. it keeps that flame alive. i don't mean to sound corny about it, but it is literally -- there are so many navalnys in so many prisons, and they all look to washington, look to the united states to make sure that we're still committed to supporting the kind of values they espouse. >> jonathan lemire, i'll kick it to you. michael mccaul, the former u.s. ambassador to russia, a long history with vladimir putin, frequent guest on this show and others on msnbc simply tweeted, quote, "putin is a cowardly bastard," relating to the news of alexei navalny. >> we've not heard yet from the white house on the death. russian prison officials saying it, and then news sources using them as the source. u.s. has not independently confirmed it, but i suspect we'll hear from the white house

at some point today. i think it is clear here, whether this was putin actively killing navalny today or simply the system that navalny has been in, this russian prison system killing him, it's no doubt the blood here is on putin's hands. we should note this, president biden met with vladimir putin, their first and only meeting was in the summer of 2021 in geneva, switzerland. it was in stark contrast to when trump and putin met in hehelsin. biden pushed him on things, though unable to dissuade him from attacking ukraine. i thought, what did he say would happen if navalny died? he said, quote, "i made it clear to him that i believe the consequences of that would be devastating for russia." i think we'll need to hear from the president later today, and i'm sure we will in a matter of time. david ignatius, what could those consequences be?

obviously, russia has turned into a global pariah, you know, in the years following the geneva summit. they've already been cut off by so much of the world because of their invasion in ukraine. what could escalate here? what could the united states do to moscow in the wake of his death? >> so in terms of escalation, it's hard to see. we're already on such a mobilized state. i think the question, jonathan, really is how the united states can deliver on the promises it's already made. we have, in effect, promised the people of ukraine we'll stand by them in their fight against russia's invasion. that question is now on the floor of our congress, in effect. it's crucial that congress look at the world honestly and think about the consequences of letting the ukrainians go. they are close to the point of breaking on some of their front lines. they need the weapons that we could send them desperately. they're running out of

anti-aircraft missiles to defense their big cities. their troops are exhausted. people need to see that in personal terms. for russia, the country that poisoned, then jailed, imprisoned in these horrible conditio conditions, navalny, how he died, we don't know yet, this is a reminder that sanctions against russia have to be meaningful. they haven't hurt the russian economy. russia seems to be stronger than before the war. its gdp is growing. its found a way to deal with reduced oil sales to europe. however, the sanctions have to be tightened. there is a way to take central bank funds seized after the invasion of ukraine, and give it to ukraine. the united states now supports that. europe is resisting. i hope in the wake of navalny's death, the europeans will say, that's it.

that money, the $600 billion, that ought to go to ukraine. that ought to be one obvious consequences of today's events. >> i mean, just when you look at the legacy of alexei navalny, the maga republicans in congress who are working for donald trump, taking orders from donald trump, i just hope they are reminded that donald trump is working for vladimir putin. every move he makes is for vladimir putin. i hope today at least they will read and learn about the legacy of alexei navalny, as russian opposition leader, and what his life means and meant. here's more from richard engel. >> reporter: as russia's leading opposition figure, alexei navalny piled pressure on the kremlin. and put a target on his back. born in 1976 in what was then

the soviet union, navalny trained as a lawyer and rose to prominence as a political blogger. in 2011, he started the anti-corruption foundation, which exposed the extravagant wealth of russian officials, including president vladimir putin. >> the biggest thing that putin is afraid of is public discontent in russia, and that is why he is afraid of opposition leaders. >> reporter: navalny's and putin's stars were intertwined as putin tightened his grip on power. navalny became a leading figure in anti-government protests. "we will force them to live by the law because we hold the power here," he shouted. he was arrested countless times and turned attacks to his advantage. in 2017, after announcing his intentions to run for president, navalny was attacked with green dye, twice. "maybe the kremlin thinks i will not record videos with a green face," he said, "but now, even

more people will watch." in 2019, as navalny's anti-corruption foundation gained support nationally, police raided their offices and arrested several activists, including, of course, navalny. but in 2020, his life was threatened like never before. on a plane traveling from siberia to moscow, navalny became deathly ill. he fell into a coma and was put on a ventilator. while recovering in a german hospital, investigators revealed he had been poi soyed with a soviet-era neurotoxin. navalny blamed putin for the attack, a claim the kremlin denied. navalny recovered and helped with the investigation into his poisoning. documenting it on social media. despite the threats against his life, in january 2021, navalny and his wife, yulia, voluntarily

returned to moscow, where he was immediately arrested, extensibly for violating the terms of a 2024 embezzlement case. once in jail, he was tried and sentenced to more than nine years in a maximum security prison. navalny said the charges were politically motivated. but even behind bars, he found ways to make his voice heard, using social media to protest the ukraine war and needle those in power. his legacy is one of defiance, a constant thorn in the side of the kremlin. richard engel, nbc news. >> gene, first, your thoughts on what you think the ramifications of the passing of alexei navalny will be. >> first of all, vladimir putin killed alexei navalny after trying to do so for years with poisoning, throwing him in prison. he wasn't dying, so they put him in the siberian prison, probably

one of the worst places they could think of, and they finally killed him. let's be clear on who is responsible. you know, you said something really hopeful a minute ago, that you hope the maga republicans read about navalny's life and understand it and realize what this really is about, what vladimir putin is really about. that's not going to happen. i mean, it is going to have absolutely no impact, i believe, on the ron johnsons and tommy tubervilles of the world, on the marjorie taylor greene's and the matt gaetz es. they're going to watch putin fan boy tucker carlson, you know, touring through moscow grocery stores and talking about how

great russia is compared to the united states. russia, where i believe the median income is something like $800 a month. much, much poorer country than the united states with an economy about the size of that of texas. but they're not going to listen. they're not going to change. are there members of congress who are on the margin, who might be influenced by this? i sure hope so. i sure hope it makes them release this money for ukraine. david, how do you rate those chances? you followed the crusade for this badly needed, urgently needed ukraine aid as it made its way through congress and then got stalled and now seems to be nowhere. do you think this is really going to help?

>> gene, i think it may. if you took a vote in congress, a free vote, aid to ukraine would pass by a very wide margin. i think there are many republicans who understand the importance. navalny's death comes a day after the stunning revelation of new russian weapons capability in space that, in the future, could threaten american communications, economic, military operations, so, you know, all these reminders of what a threat russia poses. i hope members of congress, in part because they're afraid of what their constituents will say if they're seen to back down and walk away from people defying putin and his regime, that they'll do the right thing and they'll vote for the same. you know, gene, as you and everybody on this show knows,

it's hard to predict what congress will do these days. the example of navalny is extraordinary, and i hope that his death will haunt vladimir putin. this is a man who, as i said earlier, mocked putin in every word, every gesture. he made fun of him. he made russians laugh when he did his tv specials about putin's wealth. he was just so -- he had a great sense of humor. he made putin squirm. you could see it. putin was determined to get him, tried to kill him. he came back and imprisoned him. now, he's dead. but the memory of his defiance is something every russian knows about, will appreciate. i hope it'll make a difference as russians think about their country, what kind of country they want to build. hopefully with support from the united states. >> jonathan lemire, as richard engel pointed out in the piece, navalny voluntarily returned to russia, knowing, likely, how

this story was going to end. this was the last stop here to that siberian prison, the worst in russia, where the russian prison service says he died. we're working to confirm that. this opposition leader had a family, two kids, a daughter in college here in the united states. he's got a teenage son. there was an oscar winning documentary last year about navalny in which his daughter said, "we've known since i was 13 years old that he could die." she said, "we don't talk about it a lot. i hope that day doesn't come, but he's said this is too important. i need to speak out against vladimir putin." this is a man with a family. it appears, he died in a russian prison today. >> his wife certainly instrumental, also, to his activism. >> yeah. >> extraordinary display of

bravery from navalny here, as david recounted, after already being poisoned, returning to russia, knowing his fate, imprisonment and almost certainly death. opponents of vladimir putin inherently are on borrowed time if they still remain within russia. we have seen, you know, over the last few years, those who opposed his war in ukraine fall out a window or fall down a flight of stairs or are poisoned. whether navalny was actively killed today or it was the circumstances of his imprisonment, there is no doubt, vladimir putin killed navalny, who was a hero to so many russians and a symbol around the world of democracy, of someone standing up to russia. we've heard president zelenskyy cited navalny as a figure there that he looked up to as ukraine curried itself against putin's invasion there. i tend to agree with you, gene. sadly, i don't think this will move many republican votes. the fate of the package to ukraine is very much in doubt until speaker johnson has an unexpected change of heart.

i do think we'll hear from president biden at some point today once this is confirmed by the u.s., talking about not only what navalny stood for but, again, making the case that putin must be opposed at any cost. >> mika, to add in here, a spokesperson for alexei navalny put out a statement saying, "we've heard the news. it is russian state media so we want to confirm it for ourself." they can't confirm it yet but one of his attorneys is on the way to the prison to see with his own eyes. two minutes past the top of the hour. the breaking news right now, russian opposition leader alexei navalny has died in prison. this is according to russian state media. this ends his decade long defiance against corruption and the kremlin, who tried to kill him many times.

they poisoned him, and he was put in a coma. he nearly died several times. navalny was behind bars in a russian penal colony. he was rallying around the war in ukraine even from behind bars. they say he felt unwell after a walk and almost immediately lost consciousness. this is a news interfax agency reporting this. we'll work on confirmation as more information comes out. they say they tried to revive him, it was not possible. again, this man lived his life knowing every day that he might die, that he might be killed. he knew that vladimir putin was trying to kill him every minute of every day of his life. yet, he was defiant, wanting to

show the russian people, wanting to show the world the corruption and the lies and the evil that comes from the regime of vladimir putin. moving forward now, the questions will be, how does the united states respond to the death of alexei navalny as joe biden himself has warned that there would be consequences? how does congress, do they even care? do republicans in congress even care that a man who fought for freedom all of his life in russia, who fought to expose what we all know what happens in russia to the world, has died in prison, probably at the hands of vladimir putin. certainly, vladimir putin wanted him dead. do they really deny ukraine aid? do they really hold firm on this

ridiculous stance on foreign aid after they have heldfirm on their ridiculous stances against legislation that would have closed the border? what more do republicans in congress here in the united states of america, a free country, need to know about russia through the lens of this man's life to help them understand that they need to do their jobs? again, we're talking today about the legacy of alexei navalny, who died at the age of 47 in a russian prison. as willie pointed out, this is a man with a family, who has lived with this type of threat in their lives since they knew him. now, the worst has happened. willie? >> let's bring into the conversation the chief white house correspondent for "the new york times," peter baker.

he joins us by phone from the munich security conference, where many world leaders are gathered today. peter, what's the early reaction to this news there? >> yeah, willie, obviously, it's a shock here in munich. you're right, a lot of world leaders, a lot of european leaders are here to talk about security in europe and, of course, russia is front and center. i'm here with the vice president, vice president kamala harris, who is supposed to give a speech 8:30 a.m. your time, east coast time. she's already planning to talk about, you know, the confrontation with russia. obviously, the death of alexei navalny will add an obvious urgency to that conversation. he was well respected, especially here in germany, where they rescued him once he was poisoned by vladimir putin. he decided against all advice, i think, to return to russia, knowing he'd be likely locked up. as we know from history, if you go into one of vladimir putin's prisons, you're very likely not going to come out.

>> peter, jonathan just reminded us, he had a conversation with the president in 2021 at a summit in geneva, where he asked pointedly, if alexei navalny is killed, if he dies in a prison in russia, what would be the consequences? president biden responded, "i told president putin that the consequences would devastating," his word for russia. what should we take that to mean? >> it's hard to know. in 2021, of course, we hadn't seen the russian invasion of ukraine and, therefore, hadn't taken a lot of the measures we've taken since then, the united states, that is, against russia in terms of sanctions and so forth. it is hard to know what additional measures they have available to them to respond to this that they haven't already taken for the invasion of ukraine. i imagine the pressure is going to be rather significant on the biden administration to find a way to respond and make clear that this is not accepted in the

west. nobody will believe the story he suddenly collapsed on his own, own a walk while in prison. it's not going to sell. the tools available to the biden administration, i'm not clear what they'd be at this point, that they haven't already used to try to punish them for ukraine. maybe that's why vladimir putin or his government decided there would be no significant consequences if something like this happened. that's an open question. >> we haven't confirmed the circumstances of navalny's death, but as peter says, the russian prison service claims he went for a walk and collapsed. we should point out in the last couple days, navalny appeared for a hearing while he was in prison, was smiling and laughing through that, as he often does. peter, we've been talking about the way that republicans in the senate, republicans in the house lately, in particular, have been talking about russia. of course, how donald trump has talked about russia and vladimir putin for a long time, in glowing terms.

senators this week saying putin is on top of his game. we shouldn't fund ukraine because they can't beat russia, on and on and on. does the death of navalny change the calculus in the congress right now about getting aid to ukraine? >> well, that's a good question. i don't think it changes trump's calculus. he didn't care much to begin with. he didn't care about alexei navalny. as long as it's the same position he takes, i think, you know, we've seen that dispositive with a lot of republicans on capitol hill. as long as he is against aid for ukraine, a lot of republicans will go along with him despite what's happened to alexei navalny. you're right, it adds a certain, you know, moral clarity, i think, for the argument of people who are more ukraine aid. well, look at this. point to this and say, don't forget who is on the other side of this war. don't forget who is in the kremlin pulling the strings here and what they're capable of. you know, alexei navalny was seen by vladimir putin as a potential threat to his rule.

he paid the price for it. that's a reminder of what government there is right now in moscow. >> you know, alexei navalny did everything he did in his fight for freedom and his fight for transparency. he survived starvation, poisoning, incarceration, being beaten. and he knew that every day of his life could be the last one. here he is on "60 minutes" back in 2020. >> i think for putin, why he's using this chemical weapon to do -- to kill me and terrify others. it's something really scary where the people just drop dead. there are no guns. there are no shots. in a couple of hours, you'll be dead and without any traces on your body. it's something terrifying, and putin is enjoying it. >> you have said you think that mr. putin is responsible.

>> i don't think. i'm sure that he is responsible. >> richard engel, what can you add to the legacy of alexei navalny and what he has done literally with his life, putting it on the line and losing it in the name of freedom and transparency and exposing vladimir putin? do you think it will have an impact in russia? >> reporter: well, he is now a martyr in russia, and he put his life on the line. he knowingly put his life opt line. this was someone who was a constant critic of vladimir putin. going to social media, exposing corruption of putin and his inner circle, talking about putin's billion dollar yachts for people around the kremlin,

around putin, and not being shy to talk about the most sensitive things in russia. vladimir putin and his family even. then after being arrested numerous times, after being attacked, after being attacked with green dye in order to try to make him look ridiculous and intimidate him, he was ultimately poisoned, nearly killed. after recovering in germany, we decided to go back. he decided to go back with his wife, and he knew as soon as he got off that plane and set foot in moscow, he would be arrested. he was. as soon as he arrived back in russia, he was sent to prison, first not far from moscow. in december, he was transferred to this prison in russia. he went missing, even his lawyers didn't know where he was, until he showed up at this

polar wolf of facility, a penal colony north of the arctic circle for 1,000 men. according to prison officials, that's where he died. he took a walk, according to their account, and then collapsed, lost consciousness. they tried to revive him and were unsuccessful, according to the prison authority, according to the russian news agency. vladimir putin has been informed of his death. navalny's own team say they haven't confirmed his death, and his lawyer is on his way right now to the penal colony to try to gather information. it'll be extraordinarily difficult to find out what happened inside that facility for his team and, frankly, for anybody. this will be a story that journalists, i'm sure, will be working on from now and for the years to come, to figure out what exactly killed him. was it duress? was it the pressure on him, accumulated years of

mistreatment? or did something even more sinister happen earlier today? >> it may be you never find out. alexei navalny knew they wanted to erase him from the face of the earth. when you look at what he's been through, his life, should have been dead years ago, yet he kept going back. he kept at it, fighting against russia's impression. i want to know why he did that. he is known as a martyr around the world now, and will be seen as that. i wonder inside russia, how much gain he was able to make to the people of russia who are really sort of kept in the dark about a lot of their reality.

>> well, it's very hard to know the real mood in russia because there's no political freedom, especially since the war here in ukraine began and vladimir putin imposed this new nationalist culture where it's all about rallying behind him, rallying behind the army. but when we have seen challenges to putin, they do seem to expose wide gaps between the public and the kremlin, between the public and vladimir putin. just not that many months ago, when there was a revolt by the leader of the wagner group, yevgeny prigozhin, his forces nearly made it all the way to moscow. they almost toppled the kremlin, and then, suddenly, changed their mind and, as they were closing in on moscow, pregoshen -- prigozhin thought maybe he

could cut a deal or didn't have strength he thought he did. it shows the people, the country, the security services didn't rally behindbehind putin his militia, renegade leader was marching for moscow. now, vladimir putin is facing elections. nobody suspects they're going to be real elections. there is a somewhat created opposition candidate, but even this fictitious opposition candidate is getting a bit of traction on the streets. you sense when you look at moscow, despite the lack of political freedom there, there may be smoke and mirrors. vladimir putin's position might seem a long stronger than it is. >> appreciate you hopping to a camera while covering the war there in kyiv. we'll talk soon. let's bring in former ambassador rush, now part of the institutional studies at

stanford, analyst and former amend mcfall. i mentioned your reaction on twitter. i'd like to hear what more you're hearing from your contacts inside russia. >> guys, i don't know what to say. i'm going to try to be analytic, but i want you to know, alexei navalny was my friend. i was with his wife last night. i'm here in munich, i was talking to her. his daughter, dasha, goes to school at stanford. this is an emotional time for me. putin killed navalny. let's be crystal clear about that. i don't care about any, you know, investigation, he was arrested, he was no solitary confinement. he has put him in a cell which was designed to kill. today, he is dead. why did putin kill navalny? putin is weak. you don't kill people if you're strong. putin killed navalny because

navalny was the one opposition leader in russia that putin feared the most. this is a tragic day for me, and it should be a tragic day for anybody who cares about democracy. navalny, in my view, was the -- put him in the category of brave, courageous leaders that, you know, remember, he went back to russia. he didn't have to go back. he went back for his country, because he was a patriot that believed that his country could be different. i put him in the same ranks as the navalny of mandela and hovel but one tragic difference now. navalny is dead. >> ambassador, i'm so sorry. i know he was a close friend of yours, and, gosh, i didn't know you were with his wife last night. can you remind our viewers, because sometimes it's lost, they know the name but not the full story, about the lengths to which alexei navalny went to fight the corrupt government, the authoritarianism of putin.

as you said, even after he was poisoned, he voluntarily returned to this country. he spoke out in a way that ultimately cost him his life. >> navalny was a young opposition leader mostly focused on anti-corruption. what corrupt leaders fear the most are foundations, his anti-corruption foundation that was focused on that. back in 2011 and 2012, when there were hundreds of thousands of people on the streets of moscow. a lot of americans and maybe most of the world have forgotten that, but when i was ambassador, there were hundreds of thousands of people rallying at navalny's demonstrations, anti-corruption and for democracy. there was a time where millions supported people like navalny. he ran for mayor the following year, 2013. he was not allowed to campaign.

he was not allowed on tv. he gained almost a third of the vote. he was a popular leader that, remember, putin tried to kill him before. he poisoned him very clearly. he was shipped out of germany. they barely survived. he finally recovered. many people said, "alexei, don't go back." he said, "mike, this is my country. i'm not letting him chase me out of it." when he arrived, they arrested him and put him in prison, and he's been imprisoned ever since. the conditions he's been living under have been worse and or and worse and, gradually, i think -- let's wait until we see the awe autopsy and all that, but they were slowly killing him and he was killed today because he was the greatest threat to putin's

corrupt rule. >> gene, echoing ambassador mcfaul a moment ago, a statement from navalny's chief of staff said, we have no grounds to believe state propaganda. it's not that navalny died, but putin killed him. nothing else. that's the chief of staff to alexei navalny. >> absolutely. vladimir putin killed alexei navalny if, indeed, he is dead. i was just checking what the weather might be like. he supposedly went out for some sort of walk. nearest town i can find to the polar wolf colony, it's 5 below with wind, making it feel like 27 degrees below. perfect weather for a stroll around the penal colony. it's an absurd story.

my question for michael cfaul, is there any other figure who could emerge or who has emerged, anybody else who has the -- who can galvanize whatever sort of anti-putin, pro-democracy sentiment there still is in russia? is there anybody else or not? >> you know, i don't think so. not inside the country. you know, there's an alleged presidential election coming up. they invented this candidate to be on the ballot, just to give legitimacy. they pulled him off because it looked like he was going to get too many votes. when people tell you putin is popular, i want people to think about that. if he's so popular, why can't they have anybody on the ballot that might be somewhat against mr. putin? i think over the long haul, you

know, look to yulia, his wife. she's tough as nails, very principled. this is a horrible, horrible day for her today. when you think of leaders who can command the respect of those who believe in a free russia, she might be somebody. but i don't see anybody inside. they're either in jail or tragically, if it is true. it is good you read the press statement. i also just saw him last night here in munich. it hasn't beenconfirmed. by most accounts it looks like it is, but in the coming, foreseeable future, i don't see anybody inside russia, except those who are in prison. i don't see anybody of navalny's stature left on the stage. >> all right. ambassador, thank you very much for coming on this morning.

we're so sorry for the loss of your friend. we're sorry because of the incredible impact he was having around the world. democratic congresswoman elissa slotkin of michigan joins us now, member of the armed services committee and also a candidate for u.s. senate. your reaction to the death of alexei navalny, and your thoughts about donald trump and the republicans he is leading to fight aide to ukraine, which is fighting russian aggression. >> yeah. obviously, i mean, everyone knows his name, as you just heard from ambassador mcfaul, but i think for me, what i thought of immediately was just how insane it is that we have so many people in the republican party right now who are just on team putin, right? a guy who, as you heard, over years, as poisoned this poor activist, imprisoned him, beat

him. invaded ukraine, tried to take over areas to reach into nato territory. it's just crazy to hear this kind of news and then come from a week like we've just had where my republican peers, again, many of them refused to consider additional military aid for the ukrainians and are just okay with trump saying, i give up on our alliances. i'm not interested in an american leadership role in the world. if it's not us, it's putin or its xi jinping. it's other people. no one would ever say that american leadership is perfect, but i'd rather have american leadership in the world than any of these other folks. it just brings it home today with navalny's death. >> anything about alex so that value -- alexei navalny's life and everything he went through not just to fight russian oppression but to show it to the world that can teach these republicans something perhaps they don't know? >> you know, i said to myself, i wonder how many of them are going to tweet today about, you

know, he was a hero and he was a martyr and then, in the same breath, say, but we can't help the ukrainians fend off putin. i think that he, you know, is this kind of massive figure who went through hell in order to defend and protect his country and expose putin. again, i think of the geostrategic importance of this moment. it's hard to explain sometimes, right? i admit that. why is it important for us to be engaged in a place like ukraine? but you either pay now by providing arms to the ukrainians or you'll pay ten times more in not just treasure but also blood if he goes into nato. it just highlights all of it this week. >> let's not forget, congresswoman, the journalist held for a year now, and paul whelan for five years --

>> from michigan. >> that's right, charges of spying. he spoke to secretary blinken by phone this week. still americans being held in russia as we absorb this news of the apparent death of alexei navalny. i'm glad you raised the point about your colleagues in the house. some potentially your future colleagues in the senate, who sort of twisted themselves in knots, i guess, just in fealty to donald trump or in opposition to joe biden, however you want to look at it, to praise a guy who kills his opponents, who is killing civilians as we sit here right now in ukraine, who is an authoritarian. is it politics or do they believe vladimir putin is someone to be looked up to? >> yeah, i don't know. i think in the era of trump, people are looking for the autocratic leadership. trump leads in a way that is, you know, kind of my way or the highway. he's been very clear about what he's going to do if he wins again. he says, i'll basically run as a

dictator. he is telling us what he is going to do. therefore, there's a style that appeals to some people in that putin leadership, as well. i don't totally understand it. i'm glad ronald reagan isn't here to see this in his party. he's probably rolling over in his grave. peace is his thing. it goes against the principles of the republican party, and you're not thinking more than 2 inches down the road. you're thinking about your re-election, making sure you don't get a primary. it's what gets under my skin. >> congresswoman slotkin, this comes at a moment where putin clearly peoples he has the wind at his back. he just gave this interview with an american tv host that was viewed millions and millions and millions of times around the world. russian forces on the verge of capturing a town in ukraine. this will be their first victory since bakhmut.

ukrainian soldiers saying they're simply running out of ammunition, in part because the united states has not stepped forward with this bill. now, you know, perhaps if putin decided, if there was a moment to kill navalny, this is it because there are no consequences here, as we watches november 2024 and thinks donald trump can win again. just speak to us if you will about how precarious this all is in eastern europe. >> yeah, i mean, i think that it's hard, again, to explain these big things, but, you know, our best guess is the ukrainians could run out of ammunition this spring. our best guess is they'll be out of missile defense capability to protect places like kyiv from ballistic missiles probably by the summer. you should expect massive refugee flows. the grain deal that we have on the table to continue to get grain out of ukraine could fall apart and then you could see food prices spike across the world. you're just going to see more territory taken by putin, and that territory can project into nato countries.

i don't know why anyone would say he is done after he's gone into ukraine. i think he is hedging and wanting to see if donald trump wins the election. my sense is donald trump would hand the keys over to putin. why fight when you can get the keys from a new american president? >> yes. >> i think this year, the goal is to allow the ukrainians to keep those lines, to push back, to defend themselves until we get through this election. i'll be honest. if trump wins, i think putin will be thrilled, and he's going to be looking to negotiate over ukraine as soon as possible with donald trump. >> former cia analyst, democratic congresswoman elissa slotkin of michigan, thank you very much for coming on the show this morning. let's bring in president emeritus of the council on foreign relations, richard haass, with more on the death of alexei navalny dying at the age of 47. apparently in a russian prison. as you know, richard, they tried

to kill him many times. >> they succeeded. this was not a natural death, no matter what the medical events were the last 24 hours. the way he was treated from the nerve gas, attempted murder e to the years in the harsh conditions obviously took its toll. this was a young man in his 40s. let me make a more broad foreign policy point there. jonathan was getting at it in his conversation there. putinimpunity. what this is, whether it's within his borders, in his prisons, the way he just constantly changes the constitution and dominates the country, what he is doing in ukraine, what this week we learned he might be doing in outer space. this is increasingly the world we're living in. the united states remains the single most powerful country in the world, bute're not all

powerful. we're not in a position to dominate. if you think about the headlines in the middle east, whether it is iran or a number of these iran-backed groups, we're seeing it in ukraine with putin. on top of it, we're making it worse. it's not just that others are getting stronger. they have capacity. north korea, china. we're making ourselves weaker. we're making ourselves weaker politically by our divisions and lack of consistency. if you add this up, the fact that more players in the world have capacity to do harm, and that we are, in a sense, underachieving because of our political divisions here at home, that's a really toxic combination. it's not inevitable. we can't necessarily stop others from getting stronger burks we ought to be stopping ourselves from getting weaker. that's what worries me, this juxtaposition of what is going on in the world and what is also happening at home or what we're doing to ourselves at home. >> we're getting now our first comments from the biden white house about navalny's death.

national security adviser jake sullivan was on npr, pre-scheduled interview. he says this. if it is confirmed, so the u.s. has not done it itself yet, "it is a terrible tragedy, and given the russian government's long and sordid history of doing harm to opponents, it raises real and obvious questions about what happened here." he says he'll withhold further comments until we learn more, but he says their thoughts are with mr. navalny's family. we dug up comments president biden made in geneva when he met with putin in 2021. their summit different from the hesinki one held with trump prior. i asked biden, what would happen if navalny dies? he said there would be consequences for russian misbehavior, including election interference. with navalny, he said consequences would be devastating. is there anything else we can do at this point?

we've exhausted the toolbox with ukraine, but is there a lot more pressure points the u.s. could push? >> not a lot. there is economic sanctions, and they get their oil out still, working with iran, making its less vulnerable to outside actions. putin shrugs off our criticisms and sanctions. he dominates the narrative inside russia. the best thing is deny him opportunity to be successful abroad. that gets into things like strengthening nato. we can frustrate him in his designs beyond russia. i think within russia, it is very hard for us to reach a -- we can be more critical. in the cold war, we had the broadcasting and so forth. in this age of social media, we don't only have to be on receive when he interferes in our politics. we can push back and try to get information into russia. we shouldn't kid ourselves. we're not going to bring about fundamental change within russia. again, our best chance is to

frustrate putin's designs beyond the borders. >> give us the big picture take about what navalny meant, and also where russia stands now in the wake of his death. it wasn't long ago where putin, for the first time in his tenure, seemed vulnerable. the wagner group mutiny, got within a few hundred miles of moscow, and then prigozhin died in a plane crash. now, navalny died in prison. there is momentum in the war, and it seems his grip of power has tightened again. >> he controls the political narrative in the country. economically, he is doing well enough. that's right, jonathan. i'm not comfortable here saying it, but i think that's the cold fact. what is frightening around putin, the lesson he learned is he doesn't need to play by the rule, whether internally or externally. he's got staying power. he questions the staying power of the west, in part because we've given him reasons to question the staying power.

i think we have to assume we're going to have to deal with him until he passes from the scene physically. i don't know if it's one year, five years, 15 years. i think it's just simply a fact of life. again, he's part and parcel of a world where there are worrisome trends. putin is in some ways the symbol of it. russia is not a great power but it's a power all the same. it is concentrated so much in the military realm. you have someone willing to use it without any scruples or qualms, internally or externally. >> richard, thank you and stand by, we'll have much more on this breaking news. russian opposition leader alexei navalny, according to the russian prison service, has died in prison at the age of 47. we'll talk about his legacy and also what his death might mean moving forward given the war in ukraine. also, a big day in court for

donald trump in multiple jurisdictions. we'll have the latest on all of that straight ahead on "morning joe."

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navalny's death would be another indication that russia has little or no intention of abiding by basic, fundamental human rights. it would be a tragedy. it would do nothing but hurt his relationships with the rest of the world, in my view, and with me. >> what do you say would happen if opposition leader alexei navalny dies? >> i made it clear to him that i believe the consequences of that would be devastating for russia. to the same point -- rationalize

treatment of navalny. then he dies in prison. i pointed out to him that it matters a great deal. >> president biden nearly three years ago there, first discussing the potential death of alexei navalny at the 2021 nato summit in brussels, and then taking a question from jonathan lemire two days later about the possible cons navalny. world leaders, including vice president harris, are gathering in munich for the security conference. that's where some of our guests this morning are. the conversation, obviously, is largely about supporting ukraine and its effort to push back against russia. it is something that's been thwarted by members of congress here in the united states. is there a chance that vladimir putin was sending a message. if the news of navalny's death

is true on this day, sending a message to the west? >> it is possible, willie, but i think this was a question of when, not if, given the previous attempts to kill him and the harsh conditions he was leading. my own instinct is probably not. putin has done enough, you know, in other ways, with the news coming out of ukraine, the -- i think he benefitted from the leak out of the congress about what he might be cooking up for space with new weaponry there. no, i don't any this was a tactical thing, but it is just a reminder. again, i'm struck by the juxtaposition between the realities of putin and what's going on here in the politics. that's what, again, is so worrisome to me. i think munich, the conference there, probably began by focusing on ukraine. very quickly, given donald trump's comments the last ten days, it'll focus more to the u.s. relationship with nato.

this are underscore the idea that the war is possible. the idea that russia would attack one or more nato countries has moved from the inconceivable to the all too conceivable. >> richard, we've been talking this week and this weeks about the flippant support of putin from prominent united states senators, members of the house. you had tommy tuberville saying vladimir putin is, quote, on top of his game, talking about opposing new foreign aid to ukraine to support the war effort. it's become almost an odd, popular position in some republican circles, to take the side of this authoritarian who murders his opponents and is killing civilians as he speak in his war with ukraine. politics obviously at play, doing what donald trump says they should do obviously has a big impact on what they say. what would your message be as a

diplomat, as somebody who has lived through all of this, as someone who studies and understands the consequences of stepping back from the world? what would you say to those members of congress this morning around the apparent death of alexei navalny? >> i won't try to account for this almost romance with these strong figures like putin. you know, let's just put that aside. i think the lessons of history are clear. putin only presses. when he meets resistance, he is prepared to tactically pull back. i think what he's now seeing is, given the lack of western support for ukraine, he can begin to have battlefield break throughs there. he sees the disarray in nato and here in the united states. indeed, willie, i don't think it is farfetched to say the reason he went into ukraine two years ago is because he sensed it'd not be much of a fight. he saw ukraine as weak and corrupt.

he saw the europeans as weak. he saw america as distracted and divided. he turned out to be wrong, but i don't think his assessment was crazy. i think he looked at things and said, hey, this is a real opportunity. i can finally realize one of my dreams. i think that's what we have to expect from putin. the lesson is he can -- he's going to get away withimpunity. therefore, the only thing he knows to do is press his advantages. he's done it at home. he has near total domination at home. he is trying to do it in ukraine. he'll try to go beyond ukraine if we let him. it's on us. there is nothing about him that's self-limiting. it is entirely on us. >> it is on us. richard, just some more reaction to this. navalny paid with his life for his resistance to a system of oppression. his death in a penal colony reminds us of the reality of vladimir putin's regime. this is the french foreign minister. in "the washington post," national security reporter

covering diplomacy got this quote from the nato secretary general. russia has some very serious questions to answer, calling for a full investigation into the situation. saying he was disturbed by reports of navalny's death. that's stoltenberg, the secretary general. the czech foreign minister says it is still the case, that just as russia treats its foreign policy, it treats its citizens. it has turned into a violent state that kills people who dream of a better future, like navalny. imprisoned and tortured to death for standing up to putin. rest in peace. richard, our nato partners get it. can president biden reach republicans here at home on this? >> i don't know what reaches republicans here at home, mika. it's so far from the party i was a member of for 40 years.

i just don't understand it, the romance with these authoritarians. the way donald trump presents himself. the unwillingness to support ukraine, which is about as clear cut an issue of aggression we've seen, say, since saddam hussein marched into kuwait. then, republicans rallied around supporting kuwait. we weren't going to let aggression stand and territory be acquired by force. in the course of three decades, the republican party has gone from a principled, internationalist party to something now that lacks principle and is isolationist. this is a remarkable shift in a relatively small amount of time historically. most of them will not be reachable. i think the question for president biden is can he reach the handful of republicans -- we saw it in the senate. there, you had enough republicans prepared to do the right thing -- the real question

is in the house this year, so long as it remains republican. can you find a handful of republicans with virtually all the democrats to give you a working majority? that's the only question now. >> richard, volodymyr zelenskyy is in munich at the security conference. he was just asked about that navalny's death. through a translation, he said, quote, it was obvious putin killed him. it is hard to disagree with that notion one way or the other. this comes, obviously, as neat noted, at a difficult time for the ukrainians, who see an emboldened putin, who see the u.s. potentially falling short. the europeans have rallied and are ukrainians who see em boldened putin and see the u.s. to lenity falling short. the europeans have rallied, and are trying to help as best they can, but give us a sense of it. there's a limit to that, right? how long can that sustain? >> the europeans can help them economically a lot, but militarily not a lot. europe is not geared for this

near-term weapons. one of the questions facing europe is do they get to one? the answer is maybe. do they build up an armaments industry, and a greater military capability? it goes beyond how much they spend. will they come together and organize themselves more militarily? that's the stuff of years, which is fine and it has to happen against the backdrop of uncertainty here, but europe cannot provide a near-term fix if you will to ukraine's problems. right now probably only south korea's helping. they have some ammunition. europeans can help at the edges. the real question is whether we're able to do it, but whether we're willing to do it. >> all right. we're going to take a quick break, and then we will continue with our breaking news coverage of russian opposition leader alexei navalny. he has died at the age of 47 in a russian prison. what it means on the world stage. what it means for the war in ukraine, and what it means for our politics here at home. more straight ahead on "morning

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as we cover the death of russian opposition leader alexei navalny, secretary of state tony blinken is speaking now in munich. let's listen. >> the fear of one man, only underscores the weakness and rot at the heart of the system that putin has built. russia's responsible for this. we'll be talking to the many other countries concerned about alexei navalny, especially if these reports turn out to be true. on a much different note, i'm very pleased to be with my friend and colleague the internal affairs minister of india. we have an extraordinary partnership between the united states and india, that has grown stronger and stronger in recent years, stronger than it's ever been. >> blinken -- tony blinken, the united states secretary of state making some brief remarks there on the death of alexei navalny. they're still waiting for

confirmation on their own as to the russian opposition leader's death. some details for you before we get to the other major stories of the day, but we're getting from the moscow bureau chief of "the washington post," some details that led up to his death during his imprisonment. he was repeatedly placed in very harsh conditions, in solitary punishment cells, confined in those conditions on 27 occasions totaling more than 300 days, often for trivial offenses such as failing to keep his top button fastened. this is according to his team. he was sent to a punishment cell on wednesday for the 27th time, his press secretary reports. he had been in a prison cell on the day he died. his previous stint in a punishment cell had ended only three days earlier on february 11th. he had lost weight. his health had deteriorated, and

then of course, to prison authorities, he fell ill and collapsed during a walk and could not be revived. the death of alexei navalny will have implications around the world, and will certainly be a big topic at the munich security conference and we will have full coverage straight ahead right here on "morning joe." we'll be right back. right here on "morning joe." we'll be right back.

hurting navalny? all this stuff he says to rationalize the treatment of navalny, and then he dies in prison. i pointed out to him that it matters a great deal. >> that is president biden back in the summer of 2021 responding to a question from jonathan lemire about russian opposition leader alexei navalny. the country's prison service this morning is reporting navalny has died in prison at the age of 47. navalny was the most outspoken cricket of vladimir putin's government for years, and survived several poisoning attempts. nbc's richard engel has a closer look at navalny's legacy. >> reporter: as russia's leading opposition figure, alexei navalny piled pressure on the kremlin. [ chanting ] and put a target on his back. born in 1976 in what was then the soviet union, navalny

trained as a lawyer and rose to prominence as a political blogger. in 2011, he started the anti-corruption foundation which exposed the extravagant wealth of russian officials including president vladimir putin. >> the biggest thing that putin is afraid of is public discontent in russia, and that is why he's so afraid of opposition leaders. >> reporter: navalny's and putin's stars were intertwined as putin tightened his grip on power. navalny became a leading figure at anti-government protests. we will force them to live by the law because we hold the power here, he shouted. he was arrested countless times, and turned attacks to his advantage. in 2017 after announcing his intentions to run for president, navalny was attacked with green dye twice. maybe the kremlin thinks that i will not record videos with a green face, he said, but now even more people will watch.

in 2019, as navalny's anti-corruption foundation gained support nationally, police raided their offices and arrested several activists including of course, navalny, but in 2020, his life was threatened like never before. on a plane traveling from siberia to moscow, navalny became deathly ill. he fell into a coma and was put on a ventilator. while recovering in a german hospital, investigators revealed he had been poisoned with a soviet-era neurotoxin. navalny blamed putin for the attack, a claim the kremlin denies. miraculously navalny recovered, documenting the whole thing on social media. ♪♪ despite the threats against his life, in january, 2021, navalny and his wife, yulia voluntarily returned to moscow where he was

immediately arrested for violating the terms of a 2014 embezzlement case. once in jail, he was tried and sentenced to more than nine years in a maximum security prison. navalny said the charges were politically motivated, but even behind bars he found ways to make his voice heard using social media to protest the ukraine war and needle those in power. his legacy is one of defiance, a constant thorn in the side of the kremlin. richard engel, nbc news. >> so again, the news this morning from the russian prison service is that alexei navalny died in prison. they say he went out for a walk, fell ill, died, and could not be resuscitated. obviously that should be greeted with skepticism given everything we know about state media in russia. that's something that's been echoed by spokespeople. the chief of staff for alexei navalny has said, we have no reason to believe state propaganda. we will go to see with our own

eyes, but make no mistake, said his chief of staff, vladimir putin killed alexei navalny. richard haass, let's bring you back to the conversation as we cross the top of the hour just after 8:00. people waking up to this news. if you could reset the significance of navalny's life and his activism, but also now the significance of his death, and i would add in given the report from the russian prison service, alexei navalny appeared on camera at a hearing yesterday where he appeared to be in good health and was even joking through that hearing. >> yeah. make no mistake about it. alexei navalny was killed. whatever the immediate precipitating event, he had emerged over the last two decades as the principal opposition critic of vladimir putin, and his principal theme was one that putin had amassed personal power and he was using

it for personal gain. he was really such a threat to putin that this powerful despot in russia because corruption is something the average person can appreciate and understand. you don't have to be a reader of foreign magazine to understand corruption. putin took this seriously which explains the attempts on navalny's life, the harsh imprisonment, and, you know, i think that's what we learned from that. i think it also tells us something about vladimir putin. he just doesn't care. he doesn't care about how the west will react. he basically dismisses it. this is the cost of doing business for him, and it tells us that this is someone who's prepared to act with impunity within his country's borders. we heard about it in outer space. this tells us again as if we need reminding though some people in washington clearly do, who vladimir putin is. >> and it has long been known that vladimir putin doesn't care and that he kills people.

it's shocking, or the new information over the past year, two, three, four is he has accolades doing his bidding, to audiences that clap for it. that's new. we heard from richard engel in the last hour who joined us from the capital of ukraine where he weighed in on russia's oppression of its own citizens and how the kremlin works overtime to keep its people in the dark. >> it's very hard to know the -- the real mood in russia because there's no political freedom, especially since the war here in ukraine began. >> right. >> and vladimir putin imposed this new nationalist culture where it's all about rallying behind him, rallying behind the army, but when we have seen challenges to putin, they do seem to expose wide gaps between

the public and the kremlin, between the public and vladimir putin. just -- not that many months ago when there was a revolt by the leader of the wagner group, yevgeny prigozhin, his forces nearly made it all the way to moscow. they almost toppled the kremlin and then all of a sudden changed their mind and they were closing in on moscow. prigozhin decided maybe he could cut a deal or he didn't have the strength he thought he did. it showed a tremendous amount of weakness. the country, the people, the security services didn't rally behind vladimir putin when his renegade commando leader, militia leader was marching toward moscow. it showed a real weakness, and now vladimir putin is facing elections. nobody suspects that they're going to be real elections. there is a somewhat created opposition candidate, but even this fictitious opposition candidate is getting a bit of

traction on the streets. in a sense when you look at moscow despite the lack of political freedom there, that there may be a lot of smoke and mirrors, that vladimir putin's position might seem a lot stronger than it is. >> all right, richard engel. appreciate you hopping to a camera while you're covering the war there in kyiv. we'll talk again soon. let's bring in u.s. ambassador to russia, now director of the institute at the international studies at stanford, michael mcfallen. thank you for being with us. i mentioned a couple of minutes ago on this show your reaction on twitter. i would like to hear more of you here and also what more you're hearing from your contacts inside russia. >> guys, i don't know what to say. i'm going to try to be analytic, but i want you to know alexei navalny was my friend. i was with his wife last night. i'm hear in munich talking to her. her daughter goes to school at stanford, so this is a pretty

emotional time for me. putin killed navalny. let's be crystal clear about that. i don't care about any negotiation, you know, investigation. he had him in solitary confinement. he has put him in a cell which was designed to -- and today he is dead. putin killed navalny, and why did he? because putin is weak. you don't kill people if you are strong. putin killed navalny because navalny was the one opposition leader in russia that putin feared the most. so this is a really tragic day for me and it should be a tragic day for anybody who cares about democracy. navalny in my view, was the -- put him in the category of brave, courageous leaders that, you know, remember. he went back to russia. he didn't have to go back. he within the back for his country because he was a patriot that believed that his country could be different. i put him in the same pranks as

the navalny, mandela, but with one tragic difference now. navalny is dead. >> ambassador, i'm so sorry. i know he was a close friend of yours, and gosh, i didn't know you were with his wife last night. can you remind our viewers, because sometimes it's lost. they know the name, but they don't know the full story about the lengths to which alexei navalny went to fight the corrupt government, the authoritarianism of vladimir putin? as you said, even after he was poisoned, he voluntarily returned to this country and spoke out in a way that ultimately cost him his life. >> well, that's right. so let's remember, yes. alexei navalny was a young opposition leader, mostly focused on anti-corruption, and what corrupt leaders fear the most are foundations, his anti-corruption foundation that was focused on that, and back in

2011 and 2012 where there were hundreds of thousands of people on the streets of moscow. i think a lot of americans and maybe most of the world have forgotten that. that's when i was ambassador. there were hundreds of thousands of people rallying at navalny's demonstrations, anti-corruption, and for democracy. it was i think important to remember that there was a time when millions of people supported people like mr. navalny. he ran for mayor in the following year in 2013, and he was not allowed to campaign. he was not allowed on tv, and he gained almost a third of the vote. so he was a popular leader that, remember, putin tried to kill him before. he poisoned him very clearly. he was shipped out of germany, barely survived, and on that moment, he finally recovered. many people said alexei, do not go back. i was in touch with him right before he flew back, but he said to me, mike. this is my country. i'm not going to let this guy

chase me out of it, and as he arrived, they put him in prison. they arrested him. he's been in prison ever since, and the conditions under which he's been living over the last several years have been worse and worse and worse and gradually that, i think -- let's wait until we see all the autopsy and all that, but let's be crystal clear. they were slowly killing him, and he was killed today because he was the greatest threat to putin's corrupt rule. >> and gene echoing ambassador mcfaul. he says this. quote, we have no grounds to believe state propaganda. if it's true, it's not navalny died. it's putin killed navalny. nothing else, but i don't believe them for a statement ends the statement for the chief of staff to alexei navalny. >> absolutely. he -- vladimir putin killed

alexei navalny if indeed he is dead. i was checking what the weather might be like. he supposedly went out for some sort of walk. nearest town i can find to the polar wolf colony, it's 5 below with wind making it feel like 27 degrees below. perfect weather for a stroll around the penal colony on the third story. my question for mike mcfaul is, is there any other figure who could emerge or has emerged? anybody else who has the -- who is galvanize whatever sort of anti-putin, pro-democracy sentiment there still is in russia. is there anybody else or not?

>> no, i don't think so. not inside the country. you know, there's an alleged presidential election coming up, and they invented this candidate. they allowed this person to be on the ballot to give it legitimacy, but they pulled him off because he was going to get too many votes. when people say putin is popular, think about that. if he's so popular, why can't they have anybody on the ballot against mr. putin? i think over the long haul, i think to yulia navalny. she's tough as nails and this is a horrible principle. it's a horrible day for her today, but when you think of leaders who can command the respect of those that believe in a free russia, she might be somebody, but i don't see anybody inside. they're either in jail or tragically if it's true, and

it's good you read that press statement. mr. volkov who i saw last night. it hasn't been confirmed. by most accounts it looks like it is. in the coming, foreseeable future, i don't see anybody inside russia except those that are in prison. i don't see anybody of navalny's stature left on the stage. >> all right, ambassador. thank you very much for coming on this morning. we're so sorry for the loss of your friend, and we're sorry because of the incredible impact he was having around the world. democratic congresswoman elissa slotkin of michigan joins us. she's a former cia analyst and also a candidate for u.s. senate. your reaction to the death of alexei navalny and your thoughts

about donald trump and the republicans he is leading to fight aid to ukraine which is fighting russian aggression? >> yeah. well, obviously i mean, everyone knows his name as you just heard from ambassador mcfaul, but i think for me, what i thought of immediately was just how i sane -- insane it is how many people we have in the republican party who are on team putin. he has poisoned this poor activist, imprisoned him, beaten him, but invaded ukraine, tried to take over areas and reach into nato territory. it's just crazy to hear this kind of news and come from a like like we've just had for my republican peers, many of them continue to refuse to consider aid to ukrainians. trump saying, i give up on our alliances. i'm not interested in american leadership role in the world because if it's not us, it's putin, or it's xi jinping.

it's other people, and no one would ever say that american leadership is perfect, but i would rather have american leadership in the world than any of these other folks, and it just brings it home today with navalny's death. >> anything about alexei navalny's life and everything that he went through to not just fight russian oppression, but to show it to the world that can teach these republicans something perhaps they don't know? >> well, you know, i said to myself, i wonder how many of them are going to tweet today about, you know, he was a hero and he was a martyr and, you know, then in the same breath say, but we can't help the ukrainians fend off putin. i just -- i think that he, you know, he is this kind of massive figure who went through hell in order to defend and protect his country and expose putin, and again, it just -- i think of the geostrategic importance of this moment, and it's hard to explain sometimes, right?

i admit that. why is it important for us to be engaged in a place like ukraine? but you either pay now by providing arms to the ukrainians, or you're going to pay ten times more not just in treasure, but also blood, and highlights this week. >> let's not forget evan gershkovich, an american reporter being held. paul whelan has been held for more than five years at this point in russia on trumped up charges of spying. >> from michigan. >> from michigan. that's right. he spoke to secretary blinken this week by phone. still americans being held in russia as we absorb this news of the apparent death of alexei navalny, and i'm glad you raised the point about your colleagues in the house. some of them potentially your future colleagues in the senate who sort of twisted themselves in knots, i guess just in fealty to donald trump or in opposition to joe biden. however you want to look at it to praise a guy who's killing

opponents, who's killing civilians as we sit there in ukraine, as an authoritarian. how do you explain that? is it just politics or do we believe that vladimir putin is someone to be looked up to? >> i don't know. i think -- i think, you know, in the era of trump, there's just a lot of people who are looking for that autocratic leadership, and trump leads in a way that is, you know, kind of my way or the highway, and he's being very clear about what he's going to do if he wins again. he says, i'm going to basically run as a dictator. he's telling us what he's going to do, and therefore there's sort of a style that appeals to some people in that putin leadership as well. i don't totally understand it. i'm glad ronald reagan isn't here to see this party. he's probably rolling over in his grave. i mean, peace through strength is his thing, right? so it completely contravenes what i think of the principles of the republican party, but i think also it just -- it means you're not thinking more than

2 inches down the road. you're thinking about your re-election. you're thinking about making sure you don't get a primary. you're not thinking about the strategic security of the united states, and that is what just gets under my skin. >> congresswoman slotkin, this comes at a moment where he feels like he has the wind at his back. he gave an interview with a tv host. russian forces on the verge of capturing a town of ukraine. this is the first since bakhmut. ukrainian soldiers are running out ammunition because the united states hasn't stepped forward. they're probably thinking, if there was a moment to kill navalny, this is it. there are no consequences and he thinks donald trump can win again. speak to us if you will about just how precarious this all is in eastern europe. >> yeah. i mean, i think that it's -- it's hard again to explain these big things, but, you know, best

guess is that the ukrainians could run out of ammunition in the spring. our best guess is they will run out of capabilities to protect places like kyiv from ballistic missiles probably by the summer. you should expect massive refugee flows, the grain deal that we have on the table to continue to get grain out of ukraine could fall apart, and then you could see food prices spike across the world. you're just going to see more territory taken by putin, and that territory can project into nato countries and i don't know why anyone would say he's done after he's gone into ukraine. i do think he's hedging and wanting to see if donald trump wins the election. my sense is donald trump would hand the keys over to putin. why fight when you can just get the keys from a new american president? and so i think this year the goal is to allow the ukrainians to keep those lines to push back, to defend themselves until we get through this election. i'll be honest, and then if trump wins, i think putin will

be thrilled, and he's going to be looking to negotiate over ukraine as soon as possible with donald trump. >> former cia analyst, democratic congresswoman, alyssa slotkin of michigan, thank you for coming on. let's bring in richard haass with more on the death of alexei navalny, dying at the age of 47, apparently in a russian prison. as you know, richard, they've tried to kill him many times. >> well, mika, they succeeded. i think we ought to be, you know, really conscious of the words we use here. this was not a natural death no matter what the medical events were of the last 24 hours. the way he was treated from the nerve gas, attempted murder to the years in these really harsh conditions obviously took its toll. this was a young man. this was somebody in his 40s. look. but let me sort of make a more

broad foreign policy point there, and jonathan was getting it out in his conversation there. putin acts with impunity. what this is is, you know, whether it's within his borders and his prisons, the way he constantly changes the constitution and dominates the country, what he's doing in ukraine, what this week we learned he might be doing in outer space, and this is -- this is increasingly the world we're living in. united states remains the single most powerful country in the world, but we're not all-powerful. we're not an imposition to dominate and whether you think about the headlines in the middle east, whether it's iran or these iran-backed groups, we're seeing it with putin. we're making it worse. it's not just that others have capacity, but we're making ourselves weaker, and weaker politically by our collisions and if you add this up, the fact

that more players in the world have capacity to do harm and that we are in a sense, underachieving because of our political divisions here at home, that's a really toxic combination. it's not inevitable. we can't necessarily stop others from getting stronger, but we ought to be stopping ourselves from getting weaker and that's what worries me so much, is this juxtaposition of what's going on in the world and what's also happening here at home and what we're doing to ourselves here at home. >> we're getting now our first comments from the biden white house about navalny's death. national security adviser jake sullivan just was on npr, a prescheduled interview. he says this. if it's confirmed and that means the u.s. has not done it itself just yet, it is a terrible tragedy, and giving the long and sorted history, it raises real and obvious questions about what happened here. he says he'll withhold for the questions until we learn more, but he's thinking about his family. richard, we dug up comments that

president biden made in geneva when he met with vladimir putin in 2021. their summit different than the helsinki one that president trump went to years prior. i asked, what would happen if navalny died? he said, there would be consequences for russian misbehavior including further election interference. he said, the consequence for russia would be devastating. my question for you is, is there anything else we can do at this point? we've exhausted the toolbox because of the war here with ukraine, but are there others? >> not a whole hell of a lot. russia is running around with economic sanctions, selling oil to india and china, gets arms from north korea and iran. it's made itself a little bit less vulnerable to outside actions. putin shrugs off our contract schisms. he dominates the narrative in russia. the best thing we can do is deny him opportunity to be successful

abroad. that gets into things like strengthening nato. we can frustrate him in his designs beyond russia. i think within russia it's very hard for us to reach, you know, we can be more critical like in the old days of the cold war. in this age of social media, we don't have to be on receive when he tries to interfere in our politics. we can push back and try to get information into russia. we shouldn't kid ourselves. we're not going to bring about fundamental change within russia. again, our best chance is to frustrate putin's designs beyond his borders. and we're going to continue to cover the major implications around the world on the death of alexei navalny in a russian prison. by most estimates, it is believed that vladimir putin killed navalny after several tries, even trying to poison him and put him in a coma.

navalny kept going back to russia and trying to defy the evil, the face of evil there. at the munich security conference right now, world leaders are shocked and they are responding, speaking out about the threat of vladimir putin, and the threat that he poses to the world, especially in light of the war in ukraine. vice president kamala harris is set to speak soon there at the munich security conference, and she will be talking about this. we'll be watching for that. this is as vladimir putin is now pervading u.s. politics. his influence on u.s. politics runs directly through donald trump. make no mistake about this. everything donald trump does seems to circle back to vladimir putin, even his influence on legislation that's passed or not passed, killing bills to provide aid to ukraine. it is believed by many that donald trump pretty much works

for vladimir putin and is his useful idiot. so that is why the death of navalny should be -- should be a wakeup call to republicans in congress. the question is, will it be? we'll continue to cover this story. also coming up, we're going live to the courtroom in atlanta where donald trump's allies are looking to undercut the prosecution in the rico case against the ex-president. fani willis will be on the stand at the top of the hour. we'll give you that as well and give you full legal analysis straight ahead on "morning joe." give you full legal analysis straight ahead on "morning joe." and look at me now. you'll never truly forget migraine but qulipta reduces attacks making zero-migraine days possible. it's the only pill of its kind that blocks cgrp and is approved to prevent migraine of any frequency. to help give you that forget you get migraine feeling. don't take if allergic to qulipta. most common side effects are nausea, constipation and sleepiness. learn how abbvie could help you save. qulipta, the forget-you-get migraine medicine.

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and now reports of his death, first and foremost if these reports are accurate. our hearts go out to his wife, and to his family. beyond that, his death in a russian prison and the fixation and fear of one man only underscores the weakness and rot at the heart of the system that putin has built. russia's responsible for this. we'll be talking to the many other countries concerned about alexei navalny especially if these reports bear out to be true. >> that is secretary of state antony blinken speaking a short time ago at the munich security conference about the reported death of alexei navalny. some strong words there, jonathan lemire, from secretary blinken about the weakness and

the rot of vladimir putin's regime. i say reported death because the information we're getting is from the russian prison services. we take with a grain of salt anything that comes from russian state media, but we believe that he is dead, and the former ambassador to russia talking to people like bill browder, other people who have been in the opposition to vladimir putin. they have their own lives that have been threatened because of it saying, make no mistake here. vladimir putin one way or another -- it took him longer than he'd hoped, but that vladimir putin killed alexei navalny. >> yeah. there is literally no debate about that whatsoever, and navalny, we should not overlook just the bravery of this man who became a vocal opposition leader within russia. putin tried to have him killed, had him poisoned. navalny barely survived, was another country and decided yet to come back even though he knew what his fate would be, that it

would either be death or imprisonment. in his opposition to putin, it does exist in russia, but it has to do so very quietly as putin has ratcheted up the security state there in russia after the ukraine war, and it also unfortunately willie and mika, this comes at a moment where it seems like putin is acting with impunity because he know he has the wind at his back, that he is gaining strength. his russian military has had some wins for the first time in a long time in ukraine and he's watching what's happening here in the united states and the gridiron on capitol hill with republicans refusing to vote for ukraine aid. there's a chance putin sees this. he sees trump leading the polls and he's seen trump encourage russia to go invade nato countries that don't, quote, pay their dues. this is a good moment for putin. perhaps which is when he decided to end navalny and certainly now the responsibility lies, mika,

on what washington can do, and there's a limit to what the white house can, if the republicans in congress don't step up. >> joining us now from the munich security conference is founding partner and washington correspondent for puck news, julia yaffi. you have been covering putin for most of your career. your thoughts now on the death of alexei navalny? i understand you were with his widow as early as yesterday. >> yeah. i happened to run into yulia navalny, alexei's wife. it's still hard to say widow, and and from everything i can gather and everybody i have been told, she had no idea. i asked her how alexei was doing and she said, he's doing great, and i said, really? she said, well, i have been trying to formulate a way to respond to that question because everybody keeps asking me and i think i've finally come up with

a good way to answer that question and i've started telling people he's doing really well under really bad circumstances. that was around 10:00 p.m. last night munich time. from what i understand, she had no idea, and a source close to the family said, you know, they killed him today and she had no idea. >> and if you could talk a little bit about not just his legacy now, but the impact navalny has had along the way, trying to open people's eyes in what was a closed society as it pertains to information and disinformation. >> he figured out how to use the internet. it was live journal. the blogs that russians use the most, then he moved to a website and then youtube. he kind of evolved with the times as technology evolved. he was always at the forefront

and he was a really amazing communicator of his message. he was funny. he was -- he was very sarcastic in a way that russians could really relate to, and he was a kind of a salt of the earth guy. he didn't come from he has fancy families. he came from a military family in a small town outside of moscow and he was a very different opposition figure. he also made politics accessible to other russians who after the soviet period and the 1990s saw politics as something dirty that they didn't want to get involved in, and he showed people that they could get involved and it's their money that is being miss -- misspent. he did a six-month fellowship at yale and watched "house of cards," and watched other american shows and he tried to do things in an american way. the way he ran his presidential campaign in 2018, the way he

opened, you know, election hubs all over the country and he would gladhand in a way that putin never has until recently and he mobilized people all across russia. before navalny, really only moscow in st. petersburg, and the protests were small, and he figured out how to get people in those time zones to come out in 100 cities and towns all over russia to come out and feel like -- make them feel like politics was about them. it wasn't just something happening in the kremlin. >> julia, i'm going to interrupt you for a moment. where you are at the munich security conference, vice president kamala harris has stepped to give remarks. let's listen in. >> thank you for your leadership. before i begin today, we've all just received reports that alexei navalny has died in russia. this is of course, terrible news which we are working to confirm. my prayers are with his family including his wife, yulia, who

is with us today, and if confirmed, this would be a further sign of putin's brutality. whatever story they tell, let us be clear russia is responsible and we will have more to say on this later. as gustav said, this is my third time here, and i'm honored to be with so many friends. this year we gather amid an increased instability and conflict in the middle east. we gather amid russia's ongoing aggression in ukraine, china's efforts to reshape the international order, transformative, technological change, and of course, the existential threat of the climate crisis. in this context, i know that there are questions here in europe and around the world

about the future of america's role of global leadership. these are questions the american people must also ask ourselves. whether it is in america's interest to continue to engage with the world or to turn inward, whether it is in our interest to defend longstanding rules and norms that have provided for unprecedented peace and prosperity or to allow them to be trampled. whether it is in america's interest to fight for democracy or to accept the rise of dictators, and whether it is in america's interest to continue to work in lockstep with our allies and partners or go it

alone. today i will explain how president biden and i answer these questions, with full knowledge that how america responds will affect the american people, the people of europe, and people around the world. i believe it is in the fundamental interest of the american people for the united states to fulfill our longstanding role of global leadership. as president biden and i have made clear over the past three years, we are committed to pursue global engagement, to uphold international rules and norms, to defend democratic values at home and abroad, and to work with our allies and

partners in pursuit of shared goals. as i travel throughout my country and the world, it is clear to me this approach makes america strong, and it keeps americans safe. however, there are some in the united states who disagree. they suggest it is in the best interest of the american people to isolate ourselves from the world, to flout common understandings among nations, to embrace dictators and adopt their oppressive tactics, and abandon commitments to our allies in favor of unilateral action. let me be clear.

that world view is dangerous, destabilizing, and indeed short-sighted. that view would weaken america and would undermine global stability and undermine global prosperity. president biden and i therefore reject that view, and please do understand our approach is not based on the virtues of charity. we pursue our approach because it is in our strategic interest. i strongly believe america's role of global leadership is to the direct benefit of the american people. our leadership keeps our homeland safe, supports american jobs, secures supply chains, and

opens new markets for american goods, and i firmly believe our commitment to build and sustain alliances has helped america become the most powerful and prosperous country in the world. alliances that have prevented wars, defended freedom, and maintained stability from europe to the indo-pacific. to put all of that at risk would be foolish. president biden and i have demonstrated there is a smarter way. when it comes to america's national security, our approach starts with our historic, direct investment in the working people of america, an investment which has helped build a resilient,

innovative economy. we are clear. we cannot be strong abroad if we are not strong at home. we have made a once in a generation investment to rebuild our roads and bridges and ports and highways, with more than 40,000 infrastructure projects across all of our 50 states. we're bringing semiconductor manufacturing back to america which will secure our supply chains and enable the future of technology. and we have invested $1 trillion to address the climate crisis and build a new clean energy economy, reduce emissions and meet our global climate commitments. our economic vision has ensured -- >> we will continue to listen into the remarks from kamala harris. jonathan lemire, the top of her

remarks obviously something that hadn't been planned, but given the news of the apparent death, the murder of alexei navalny, she said this is a further sign of putin's brutality. the vice president going on to say, let us be clear russia is responsible. >> right, and she certainly said, willie, the u.s. has not independently confirmed his death, but they have no reason to doubt the accounts. we heard similar things from the secretary of state, the national security adviser in the last we certainly expect to hear from president biden at some point later today. he is scheduled to be on the road. he heads to east palestine, ohio a year after that train derailment there and toxic chemical spill. it's possible he'll engage with reporters there or perhaps leaving the white house. we'll see if the white house schedules other special remarks from the president. i'm told that's being worked out in the west wing. that is certainly a significant moment here in the putin regime. navalny was perhaps the most effective opposition leader that putin has ever faced. he drew huge crowds and exposes

corruption with a documentary that your average russian could understand and that's why putin deemed navalny such a threat. he tried to kill him and then incarcerated him and now navalny dies clearly at putin's hand one way or another, and we should also mention, willie, just the setting there for the vice president's comments with navalny's widow also in munich. it was there two years ago on the eve of russia's invasion of ukraine where the vice president actually pulled aside ukrainian president zelenskyy and said, this is happening. this is happening soon. zelenskyy at that moment wasn't sure. obviously u.s. intelligence was proven right and zelenskyy was launched into this wartime hero, this leader whose country has brought so bravely for years, but now running into real trouble because the united states is not following through on its commitment to arm them and there's a real sense here that that war could slip away from the ukrainians, willie, if the congress doesn't find those votes. >> by the way, we should point

out that video we were showing a moment ago of alexei navalny, that was a hearing yesterday. >> yesterday, yeah. >> and judge for yourself. he looks to be in good health, relatively good health anyway. he was joking during that hearing and now, mika, the official story out of moscow is he went for a walk outside the prison, in siberia. the far reaches of siberia, became unsell as they say in the prison service and could no be saved. that's the official story anyway out of moscow. >> well, the timing along with the munich security conference really gives many who are interested a sense of the volatility of this moment. i understand his widow -- now widow was supposed to do a panel with hillary clinton at the munich security conference, and vice president kamala harris clearly reacting not just to the death of alexei navalny, but reinforcing the threat of

vladimir putin for anybody who doesn't get it, and there are many on -- in the united states. this is amid the concern we face here in the u.s. as supporters of vladimir putin. they are rearing up in our politics. he's doing putin's bidding every step of the way. it will be interesting to hear what president biden has to say, jonathan lemire. there are republicans still there. who bows to vladimir putin? >> i think there's no question here. the president will use this moment to be outraged at putin. this is in response to a

question i asked him in geneva. he said there will be devastating consequences for russia were navalny to die. the u.s. already used much of its arsenal to punish russia for the ukraine war, but i also think that the president will likely, willie, talk about the threat that russia poses to ukraine, to the rest of europe, the need to pass that security assistance, and perhaps invoke donald trump who just a few days ago encouraged russia, encouraged russia to invade nato members, dragging us all into a war if those nato countries don't pay their dues. the threat that putin poses is present and growing i think the president will say. >> it is striing to say vice president harris something out loud that's been taken for granted in the west for centuries now, that alliances are important, we shouldn't fall under the thrall of dictators, but it has to be said. i would add to mika's point to donald trump driving a lot of

this, and nikki haley, obviously the last opponent in the republican primary put out a statement, quote. putin did this, talking about the death of navalny. the same putin who donald trump praises and defends. she then brings out a quote of what trump said. in all fairness to putin, you're saying he killed people. i've never seen that, end quote. nikki haley criticizing trump here as well. we'll have much more on the death of alexei navalny, the vocal critic of vladimir putin in just a minute. we'll take you live in just a few minutes back to fulton county, georgia where d.a. fani willis will be back on the stand less than ten minutes from now. explosive testimony from her yesterday. more to come in just a few minutes live on "morning joe." we'll be right back. few minutes live on "morning joe." we'll be right back. and i saved hundreds. that's great. i know, right? i've been telling everyone. baby: liberty. did you hear that? ty just said her first word. can you say “mama”? baby: liberty. can you say “auntie”?

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you have been intrusive into people's personal lives. you're confused. you think i'm on trial. these people are on trial for trying to steal an election in 2020. i'm not on trial no matter how hard you try to put me on trial. >> fulton county district attorney fani willis on the stand yesterday in atlanta. moments from now she's expected to resume her testimony after an explosive day in court yesterday. the evidentiary hearing is connected to conduct allegations against willis and special prosecutor nathan wade that could result in their disqualification from the trump election interference case in georgia. joining us now, nbc news legal analyst andrew weissmann, nbc analyst danny ceballoss, and

caroline savisi. we'll be getting her take on the trump fraud case that is expected to come down as well. i'll go in order, and start with you, andrew. how do you think fani willis did yesterday? in a way, i think she was very loquacious and a lot of people criticized that. i think in a way, it showed how disorganized the trump lawyers were. they seemed a little bit thrown off. is my analysis incorrect? >> i think that's right. it was a really roller coaster day. it started off, i think, very well for the defense. they had a witness who said that the relationship started a lot sooner than -- and earlier than fani willis and mr. wade said. mr. wade, i think, had certain

credibility issues in terms of what he said on the stand. he had trouble answering certain questions it seemed like softballs, and so when we were talking about this and watching it yesterday, we thought, this is going pretty well for the defense, at least initially. i thought fani willis really changed that outlook when she testified, and right now looking at the actual issue which the judge said he's concerned about, which is was there any way in which she was profiting from this relationship? in other words, was she getting money from the state contract for mr. wade? there is right now -- this can change -- unrefuted evidence. there is only mr. wade and her saying, no. they split the costs, and so in that sense, if you look sort of

dispassionately at what happened yesterday and you leave assign a lot of fireworks, right now if the case was to end right now, it's hard to see how the defense can carry its burden and show that she should be disqualified. >> danny cevallos, do you agree? >> i agree in part, don't agree in other parts. do i think that fani willis was a good witness? no, not by any metric by which you measure witnesses who testify in court. do i think she was effective as a politician? do i think she gave good speeches? do we have good sound bites from what she said? absolutely, but if you went back about seven minutes, the usual question washing, like, can you state your name for the record? she was answering the question carried the day for her. if her mission was to send a message, she sent a message, but there is no way i think that you can say that as a witness who was supposed to follow the rules of evidence, and as a lawyer who should know the rules, that she

was answering questions in a proper way as a witness. as for being consistent, was she consistent with nathan wade? yeah, but consistency isn't always credible. in other words, you can have a criminal defendant who says that was not me who robbed the bann, but you've got dna, video, fingerprints, cooperating witnesses and they'll consistently until the end of time say, i didn't do it. i'm not saying there's any evidence of criminality here, obviously, but is it credible just because fani willis and nathan wade have their stories straight? is it credible that after these two in a romantic relationship went on trips to aruba, that the district attorney pulled out an envelope of sweaty cash and peeled off thousands of dollars and handed it to him? is that credible? well, i ask you, any of you have been on trips with your romantic paramores, did you do that? peel off a wad of cash and repay

them for it? i have yet to find someone who has done that. is it credible? i still think that fani willis carried the day. i still think she avoids being disqualified, but was she a good witness? no. >> so caroline, i was watching our coverage yesterday, and when we came out of nathan wade's testimony, you were not alone in suggesting that based on what you saw from him that this was dead. they were going to take this case away from d.a. and move it to another venue in georgia and maybe it would go away altogether. did the testimony from d.a. willis, which will continue in just a couple of minutes here by the way, did that change your view of things? >> the peril of hot takes, willie. that definitely was a hot take. look. two things can be true at the same time. this case -- what we saw yesterday, obviously has nothing to do with the merits of the underlying case. it has nothing to do with the guilt of innocence of former

president trump. it was very tawdry. it was very salacious. unfortunately, that's a by-product of some legal issues that, you know, the judge wanted to get to the bottom of. i think -- i agree with danny. i don't think fani willis did herself any favors. the legal issue is whether or not an actual conflict existed in the form of a financial benefit to fani willis. i don't think the burden was met in that regard, but i do have some serious questions about whether or not fani willis and nathan wade submitted a false affidavit to the court, and that is deeply, deeply troubling to me. i think there could be more evidence that comes out today, and so i'm going to, you know, pause. >> i will just note sitting here i'm surrounded by lawyers as danny joked. charles, this is about to get going. what should we look for today? how do you expect it will go? >> i think we'll see a different fani willis on the stand. i think she'll emerge much more

constrained where she started and he'll pick up where she left off. if there are any questions about the notion of this cash benefit, she is going to short those things in a way she will not be disqualified. i think she understands where she is in this overall conversation and the fact that she still has a case to prosecute in terms of dealing with donald trump so she's going to now shift the focus and trying to position herself as strong, ready, prepared, and qualified to move forward with her job. >> andrew, same question to you. what do you expect to happen today? >> i'm going to be looking for whether there is corroboration for fani willis and nathan wade's story or whether there's evidence to dispute it. the defense has to come up with evidence to dispute it because everything i'm hearing is so far, even if you think it's implausible, there's no contrary evidence. so it will be interesting to see whether the defense has other witnesses, other documents to disprove the financial aspects. >> we do appear to be moments

away from this getting started. danny, what are you looking at today? >> i'm looking for any ability to attack credibility. they had their shot yesterday and i think they were largely ineffective. if they started out strong in the morning towards the afternoon when i thought they would really deliver a knockout punch. i don't think they did it. i think that fani willis can survive this and avoid disqualification. >> we'll to go live to the courtroom in atlanta. again, these are misconduct allegations levied against fani willis. she was on the stand for several hours yesterday, and it is about to continue this morning. let's listen in. >> he's sick today. >> okay. and mr. floyd has decided what exactly?

miss grosk? >> it sounds like a deliberate choice not to be present this morning, and he was not here yesterday. if he joins later, i would like to call that voluntary. >> i agree and i inherit anything else from mr. morrison or any other counsel. is there anything we need to take up before resuming testimony here? let me start with the state. >> thank you, your honor. yesterday the state had asked that we -- she be held in case she needs to be called. we let her attorney know, and she had already been excused from the other side, so there was no reason for her to be participates. >> miss merchant. >> i talked to her attorney last

night and i sai -- we had a different conversation. i think she's still on standby. >> so your position has changed since yesterday? >> yes. based on the state's representation that they have rebuttal evidence. if they present something in rebuttal, i need to call her. >> all right. we'll address it as it comes up. what else? anything else? >> not from the state, your honor. >> okay. miss merchant? >> i know we're still in the middle of miss willis, but i want to address some of the things that were said yesterday and things like that. do you want to do that now or would you rather do that before mr. bradley comes back? >> when you say address them, what do you mean? >> well, there's a couple of different issues, but we've got the privilege issue is one of them, but also, what i did is brought my questions and i thought i could give those to the court so we didn't have to worry about the privilege stuff. there's also -- there were some allegations made ahead of

transcript made of what she did yesterday. some specific allegations that i think i should have an opportunity to refute, specifically that i had egregiously misrepresented, that things i said were patently false, and i spoke with mr. chopra on the way here, and he said he didn't say any of that information, and doesn't know where that came from. >> we're going to dip out of this for just a minute while they're going through procedural business. charles coleman, let me go to you quickly just to take a step back for our viewers waking up and tuning into this, this morning. what exactly fani willis is testifying about and how it relates -- let's not forget the bigger picture here, which is that there is a trial ahead on charges that donald trump and 18 other defendants tried to steal the 2020 election in georgia. a reminder of donald trump on

tape in an infamous call to the secretary of state. the evidence is strong there, but what are we dealing with today before we even get to that trial? >> surely, willie. we have to take a step back and this is unfolded in many respects like a soap opera in atlanta. almost a reality tv show. nathan wade who was a special prosecutor in this case, with fani willis, she has admitted to having a relationship with. wade is in the middle of a divorce proceeding and there came this notion that somehow because of the romantic relationship he was involved in with miss willis, she was receiving an improper benefit. she had hired him after they had already started a relationship and she was being sort of giving kickbacks if you will from paying him as her special assistant working on this case. that raised questions about how proper this relationship was when it started and, in fact,

the benefit was being paid to miss willwillis, and we have ha this motion by many of the defendants in this case to try to disqualify not only miss willis, but her office from being able to prosecute this case. what we are hearing today is conversation in front of the judge because that's the audience that they're playing to. this is not a jury trial. this is not the actual trial against donald trump and his co-defendants as to whether there was an improper benefit paid to miss willis, or anything about that relationship created a conflict such that she should be removed from the case or disqualified as the prosecutor. that's we're talking about. >> so andrew, as we have been listening with one ear to what's going on in the courtroom, we just heard the state say to the judge, we have no questions for d.a. willis. does that mean we won't see her today? >> so this is something last night a bunch of us were thinking. i actually tweeted this out, that if the state was smart,

they don't ask her any questions. she was asked a ton of questions and got her story out. for the state to ask her questions now would be unclear what she would add, but it would give the defense another opportunity to ask questions because, you know, you can do -- you can bring a witness on, but then you get to do what's sort of a redirect and have another shot. so by the state saying we have no questions, it means that, aw they think she did well on the stand and got out the points and they're procluding the state from having another shot. i was hoping just as a strategic matter, that's what they would do. i'm not taking sides. i just think strategically, really smart move. >> danny, do you agree with that? >> oh, definitely. from a political perspective and in the sense that fani willis sort of ran out the clock yesterday by giving long answers and by the end of the day, it

felt as if she had delivered a blow right back to the defense by precluding them from getting -- you know they spent all night coming up with new questions, re-grouping. by that, i mean the defense and they were probably ready to come back if there was any opportunity, and by doing this, by not asking any questions, the state has fore closed that country. remember the burden for the defense here was not just about proving whether or not fani willis used cash or not. there's nothing wrong with using cash. it was whether or not they could prove their theory that the government cash went to nathan wade as special prosecutor and then that money was sent back to or kicked back i guess you could say to fani willis when they went on vacations. it was already a pretty creative theory, but judge mcafee seemed receptive to the idea. the question is, did they meet their burden? and i'm not entirely sure because, you know, fani willis denied it, and nathan wade denied it. if they had a way to prove that

alleged kickback, and i'm using that term loosely, then they might have had a shot, but i don't know they made out their case yesterday and now they mabt get a second chance. >> let's take a moment and say we're grateful for cameras in the courtroom there in fulton county. if this is the case and we don't hear from the d.a. again, how should we expect the rest of the day to play out? >> yeah, it's anybody's guess. i think -- look. big picture here, i don't think anybody at this table would disagree that fani willis has made some mistakes in this case, and i think there's the conflation between ethical standards, and those have merged in this hearing at least in my mind. again, it's not best practices to either, a, appoint somebody that you have had a romantic relationship with to be the head

prosecutor with in a huge, you know, case or b, to then -- if you are not romantically involved prior, to then become involved with them after. we find ourselves today in this ugly dispute where we're learning all sorts of things we don't know. we don't care about. it should be irrelevant. nonetheless, there are issues that the judge would like to get to the bottom of that have to do with not the romantic relationship, but, you know, the financial incentives and real, ethical issues. it's a problem. >> of course, this is not the only case we're keeping an eye on today. we also expect to get a judgment in the civil fraud case here in new york city. i know you have been watching that closely. this is the punishment phase. what should we expect? what is donald trump going to hear today? >> i got out of the prediction game a long time ago. one thing we know for sure, which we all know by now, that this -- the trial really,

although there were some issues that are being tried sort of for the first time, the judge had already made a decision that there was liability here. so this was more of a penalty phase to find out what was going to be owed. this could be the death nail for the trump org doing business hereafter. it's interesting how the e. jean carroll verdict might play into moving around of funds for debts former president trump may owe, and i think that they're in real danger of losing their business license. >> would you like to play the prediction game or at the very least tell us what we should be looking out for today? >> sure. well, the one thing we know is as you just mentioned, there's liability on the first cause of action. the judge has to decide whether there's liability on actions 2 through 7, but who cares? the first cause of action has been found, and that will be the

proverbial icing on the cake. the amount of money is up to, but $340 million. that's in addition to the $90 million that donald trump owes e. jean carroll, and i think that big issue i'm looking for is does the judge say as the state wants that donald trump is barred for life from doing business in new york, and they made a pretty compelling argument about his pension for recidivism, and that would be a reason to do it, if you see he has committed crimes, committed fraud over and over again, and the state's obligation is to protect everyone in new york. new york state residents. so that is the thing i'm looking for. >> and danny, that would be a stunning development given that donald trump has built his entire identity for what? 40, 45 years on being the businessman of new york who built himself up from queens, moved to manhattan, builds the big building on 5th avenue and

becomes this icon. if he had all that stripped away from him, that's just the cultural point, but on the legal point, what does it mean to have his license taken away? does that mean he is done in the state of new york? >> yeah. i think there is a lot of range of possibilities as far as what justice angoran will come down with, because what does this even look like? what happens to the entities? even more specifically, are you doing something to the business entities or what about the asset that is those entities hold which are of course, buildings? what happens to all the infrastructure and the people who work in those companies? how does that work? it may be at least for the time being, a moot question or maybe even not right question because this case will go up on appeal and go straight to the appellate division and i believe they have that, which new york is confusingly the highest court, but it's really something that i don't think will be executed right away. however many hundreds of millions will be involved, and i believe actually just to give

you an idea, it's not entirely certain that donald trump is liquid enough to even pay a judgment like this because i believe one of the transactions at issue in this case was a loan that he took out. i believe -- i could be wrong, it was to pay the judgment on the trump university case which goes all the way back to 2016. donald trump may not be as liquid as he said, and the point of the trial is he says he's worth more than he actually is. >> we should point out the judge has found that trump and his executives engaged in fraud. now it's a question of what the penalty is. letitia james asking for $370 million. even a fraction of that, that will be very difficult for donald trump to pay, mika. for those viewers waking up this morning expecting to see fulton county d.a. fani willis back on the stand after that explosive afternoon and evening yesterday, we just word out of the

courtroom, they're back in a recess because the state said they have no questions. >> smart. we're watching that. we're awaiting the results of the civil fraud trial in new york city. there are many cases coming to a head. we're also watching the munich conference where leaders are responding to the death of opposition leader alexei navalny. we'll show you an incredible moment. vice president kamala harris was speaking and she brought his widow, yulia navalny to the stage. we'll have that after a break. we'll have that after a break.

we continue cover the breaking news. russian opposition leader, that man, alexei navalny, at 47 years old has been killed in a russian prison. russian prison authorities say he died. he fell down and he lost

consciousness and they were not able to revive him, but most experts say this is the hand of vladimir putin who has been trying to kill this opposition leader for more than a decade. at one point, even trying to poison him. the news sent reverberations around the world. it has implications in our own politics as we have lawmakers here at home who seem to be bowing to vladimir putin and bowing to donald trump who bows to vladimir putin, and at the munich security conference, world leaders are responding in horror to the killing of alexei navalny, and in a few moments we'll be showing his widow who joined the stage with vice president kamala harris asking for justice. oh, here she is. yulia navalny speaking in munich. take a look. okay. so we will actually play her

full remarks in just a moment. she came to the stage right after vice president kamala harris. huma abedin is at the conference. huma has the translation. she said many times that she wants vladimir putin to be punished for killing her husband, and she called upon the national community to come together at this moment and to punish vladimir putin for the death of her husband. they were brief, powerful comments by the widow of alexei navalny who is there at the security conference. she was planning to participate in a panel with hillary clinton. she took the stage and made a few brief words in the name of her husband who died in a russian prison. joining us now, nbc news foreign

correspondent josh lederman on the conference as a whole and the breaking developments that has really changed the entire dynamic of the gathering. >> it sure has. it is now hanging over this summit in munich like a dark cloud, mika, as we are getting more and more reaction coming in not only from attendees at the summit, from the u.s. government, from other governments, but also of course, back at home in the united states where members of the congress are weighing in. vice president harris in her remarks really set the tone that i think the u.s. government is going to be striking for the next several hours, which is, at first caution. they continue want to get ahe of the facts that they have been able to establish at this point, given that essentially everyone is operating at this point. still on this pronouncement from the russian prison service, that alexei navalny is dead, but vice president harris did say, look. whatever story russia tells about this death, this is vladimir putin's fault and responsibility, and certainly no one in the u.s. government and

in ally governments around the world are going to give any credence to the idea that regardless of the specific chain of events that ultimate i will the culpability did not lie with the kremlin given the long imprisonment of alexei navalny, the harsh sentence imposed on him and the conditions on which he was being held in siberia. dmitry peskov was asked shortly ago about reports that are starting to spread within the russian media suggesting that alexei navalny may have died of a blood clot. the presidential spokesman dmi dmitry peskov wouldn't comment on that. he said, there's nothing extraordinary at this time. everybody is doing exactly what they shower in terms of the investigation. the investigative committee in russia has announced how they are proceeding with an

investigation into this death. you're starting to hear that nothing to see here line emerge from the kremlin suggesting that whatever happened is simply what happened in a prison under the control of federal prison authorities, but in the meantime, one of the big questions that is now on the minds of so many people in munich and elsewhere, mika, is what is going to happen to the ruggs russian opposition? as we've heard from so many guests on the program today, alexei navalny was really unparalleled in being able to galvanize support within russia for opposition to president buyten's government and there's not a clear successor. there is another anti-war would-be candidate who has been barred from the presidential election set to take place in russia just one month from now, so in the absence of the russian opposition, the opposition to putin at this point does not have a clear path forward even though we do expect that there

will be quite a lot of uproar from those who were supporting navalny by the millions. some 5,000 of them have been arrested previously by putin's government when they protested his treatment by russia's government and so the question is, how comfortable will members of the opposition in russia and their supporters be? in coming out publicly, finding a successor, and making clear despite what led to the apparent death of navalny, that they are not going to sit down and take quietly that death and end their opposition to putin's government even as he is poised to win another presidential election. >> thank you very much for your reporting. again, the munich security conference where world leaders are gathering are respond togt death of russian opposition leader alexei navalny, 47 years old. he was last seen yesterday at a

hearing. he seemed alive and well orp well enough for someone who has been in solitary confinement, in very, very harsh prison conditions for months. this is a man who has been fighting putin with his heart and soul and every inch of himself for decades, and has been poisoned, was in a coma, and could have left and could have lived a good life elsewhere, but after recovering, went back to russia and went straight to prison who felt he could move the meter on the world stage from prison barrett -- better than anywhere else, and the question will be will the west respond appropriately to putin's evil especially given the war in ukraine? then it comes down to the republicans in the house, and aid to ukraine in that war, in

their time of need, in their response to russian aggression. will they step up or will they bow down to vladimir putin's useful idiot, donald trump? that's the question in the wake of the death of alexei navalny. we'll be right back. f alexei nay we'll be right back. these underwear are period-proof. and sneeze-proof. and sweat-proof. they're leakproof underwear, from knix. comfy & confident protection that feel just like normal. with so many styles and colors to choose from, switching is easy at knix.com

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back live on "morning joe," 9:32 on the east coast, and in atlanta, where if you are just waking up expecting to see the resumption of testimony from fani willis, the state said we have no questions for her so she will not appear today as a witness. they are in recess and the courtroom deciding what to do next, which witness to call as donald trump and other defendants, their legal team make the argument a d.a. willis should be disqualified. she spoke forcefully on her own

behalf yesterday. we'll see if that carries the day, but fani willis will not be testifying as of right now. back to washington, and the impeachment inquiry into president biden. a former fbi informant has been indicted by a special counsel for allegedly lying to the bureau about president biden and his son's business dealings. alexander smirnoff is facing derogatory charges. also one count of making a false statement to a government agent and falsification of records in a federal investigation. his account you'll remember was critical to the republicans' impeachment inquiry. he was a star witness. he was making it all up

according to the charges. he was arrested in las vegas after an overseas trip. a judge ordered him to remain in detention, pending a hearing in federal court set for next tuesday in las vegas. a source familiar with the matter tells next news hunter biden does not know the individual who was charged and does not believe he has ever met him. house oversight committee ranking member democrat jamie raskin calling for an end now to the impeachment inquiry into president biden following his indictment. oversight chairman james comer is now denying his testimony was integral to the impeachment inquiry and claims the committee has other evidence for the case has despite comer saying this about that very informant in june of last year. >> today fbi officials confirmed that the unclassified record has not been disproven and is currently being used in an ongoing investigation.

the confidential human source who provided information about then-vice president biden being involved in a criminal bribery scheme is a trusted, highly credible informant who has been used by the fbi for over ten years and has been paid over six figures. these are facts and no amount of spin and frankly lies from the white house or congressional democrats can change this information. >> jonathan, this man truly a star witness. he was cited dozens of times on fox news shows as here is the smoking gun. here's the guy that was telling us the story of the multimillion dollar bribes received by joe biden and his son, hunter biden. he was making it all up. they can't run from this guy as james comer tried yesterday. when one of the star witnesses families apart, the guy on the run, he turned out to be an agent of the chinese government.

serial liars, they turn to look for the next -- they turn to look for the next witness and they all fall by the wayside. again, there's no evidence here that joe biden did anything wrong, but it appears republicans in this committee will continue this march toward something. >> yeah. the republicans in the committee have never been disturbed by the truth. they're seemingly forging forward here with these hearings. we should note that the special counsel who arrested -- who issued the charge to arrest this man, david weiss, trump appointee. he's the one who has been in charge of the hunter biden investigation throughout, and he is the one who he and his investigators concluded that he had lied. one of the pieces he claimed he had seen hunter biden in the ukraine. hunter biden was not in ukraine at that time and there were. many other falsehoods he peddled. this is not going to slow for now, this impeachment inquiry. even some republicans suggested that might not be the case, but this is about donald trump

wanting a false equivalency to his own impeachments and criminal charges and he's being propped up and promoted from the conservative media. you mentioned that this witness has been touted on fox news over and over and over and over again, but last night, in the hours after this criminal charge, not mentioned once. >> and we're learning more about why house intelligence chair mike turner decided to release his extremely rare and cryptic statement about a serious national security threat. according to nbc news, several sources say turner put out that warning to try to bolster support for two of his legislative priorities that face obstacles in the house. of course, one would be sending more aid to ukraine, and renewing a key foreign surveillance program. we're told turner is frustrated with house speaker mike johnson over ukraine and this was a way to shift attention to the threat

posed by russia. turner defended his warning saying the rationale to issue it publicly was to pressure the administration to declassify the material to benefit american al allies, but at least one house republican isn't buying it and is now demanding an investigation into turner for raising the alarm. congressman andy ogle asked for an inquiry into turner's statement saying it was done with reckless disclosure and questioned if turner should remain intel chair. meanwhile, the white house has reassured the public that the u.s. has had knowledge of the russian nuclear capabilities in space for a long time now, if not years, and the biden administration has been kept informed of the situation throughout. it really seems these house republicans are kind of missing the big picture, lemire.

ukraine needs aid to push back against russian aggression. vladimir putin has been pushing and killed alexei navalny, a man he's been trying to kill for decades. russian aggression is the point and these house republicans keep running around in circles looking for people to blame about anything instead of dealing with the problem and getting that i had to ukraine. >> first on congressman turn who are as we noted yesterday, pretty well respected and well-liked guy and he's managed to make all of washington mad at him. republicans accuse him of a conspiracy theorist to drum up support for ukraine, and democrats think he went way too far. this didn't need to go public like this. we heard jake sullivan express real bafflement. we have reports from lawmakers on both sides of the aisle

frustrated by this decision, but to your larger point, mika, it underscores this satellite-killing nuclear program that they have, or the danger that putin poses. he poses it in space and ukraine, and he followed through on his threats to navalny, and what is so disturbing here, mika, as i have been texting some folks and talking about it with some of the experts here on and off air, despite what we learned today that the opposition leader killed at putin's hand, no one expects any republicans, not a single one to change their support and support the ukraine funding. >> that's just sick. coming up, we'll be talking about the many different legal challenges that donald trump is facing, but also make no mistake. donald trump is a huge part of this russia story, and this vladimir putin story, and yesterday outside the courthouse, which case was he in court for? i think it was the porn star case which is going to go forward in late march, and he

has to show up every day, which he will make political, but it is about his wrongdoing with a porn star and paying her off. i digress about comments that were made at nato. some are shocking and disturbing. we'll bring you that after a quick break. sturbing we'll bring you that after a quick break. i have moderate to severe plaque psoriasis. thanks to skyrizi,

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covered by gabby marshall. here comes clark. how will she go for history? there it is! >> casual logo three fading to the left for caitlin clark. it took less than three minutes of play last night for the iowa superstar, caitlin clark to score the eight points she needed to become the new all-time scoring leader in the history of ncaa women's college basketball. she hit that record-breaking three-pointer as i said from the logo which is kind of her trademark. she also set the hawkeyes'

single game-scoring record with 49 points in their 106-89 win over michigan last night. clark now has that record, 3,569 points through 120 games. >> you got off to a hot start tonight. already five quick points and you're coming down the court and full up from a logo three. what was going through your mind in that moment? >> well, holly, that was the only way to do it, so i had to. i told my teammates and my coaches, if i got a chance in transition, i'm going to launch one, and honestly i didn't know if it was going to go in because it was a deep one, but then it goes in, and coach calls time-out and i'm thankful to be surrounded by these people, this place. i'm just so grateful honestly. >> jonathan lemire, she is such a special player. i was watching with my 16-year-old daughter who also plays basketball last night and she is an icon not just to young women and girls, but to sports fans across the country. she plays like steph curry and

by that i don't mean she just pulls from the logo with ease and makes three-pointers. she plays with a joy and a competitiveness that is so fun to watch, and truthfully, you know, there have been pieces written about this in the swal street journal, there's a caitlin clark economy. games are sold up, and lining up around the block, filling up hotels and restaurants and merchandise. she's truly special and now the all-time leader in the history of women's basketball in scoring. >> she's a superstar. she's an icon and transcendent. it is remarkable and of course, she was going to hit a logo three to break the record. she said she wanted to do it. superlative effort, and she could come back for another season which seems incredible. maybe she moves onto the wnba, and they've got a conference title and probably run ahead of them. they lost in the finals last year to lsu, but certainly they

have a shot this year to win it all, and, you know, she is truly remarkable and congratulations to her. >> extraordinary player and very easy to root for. i would point out now, she's less than 100 points away from the all-time record ncaa scoring men or women held by pete maravich. she averages 32 points a game. she seems like a lock to break that record. >> i like her chances. >> that's coming up in a couple of weeks. >> yeah. >> one other thing, she's the leading scorer in the country. she also leads the country in assists. she's almost as good a passer as she is a shooter. >> she's amazing, and also since she never scored less than eight points in a game, you knew this was going to happen. not only did we know this was going to happen. she knew this was going to happen last night, so congratulations to caitlin clark, and also i agree. we should -- we should watch. i think she can get that national men's and women's record as well. that would be something to see,

and i love the caitlin clark economy. that's very cool. if she plays, they will show up. all right. we'll be right back with donald trump's latest comments, criticizing nato and what that means in the grand scheme of things given the latest breaking news of the day. we'll be right back. ♪♪

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200 billion, they're in for 25 billion, and it's much more important for them because we have an ocean in between. it's a much different thing. so the nato countries have to pay up. they're not paying up. they're not paying what they should, and they laugh at the stupidity of the united states of america where we have a guy that gives $60 billion every time somebody comes and asks for it. we shouldn't be doing that. they're laughing at us. they think we're the stupid country because of our

leadership. >> and that would be what a useful idiot looks like. again, donald trump railing about nato and whatever else doing vladimir putin's bidding every step of the way. outside a manhattan courthouse where he discovered that he will be standing trial for his hush money payments to a porn star. this is one of many legal challenges the former president. later today we should find out what the judgment will be in his civil fraud trial. he's already been found liable for fraud, massive fraud, and the new york attorney general is asking for hundreds of millions of dollars to pay back the state that this man, the former president, ripped off. jonathan lemire, so much going on on the world stage, but also in courtrooms across the country pertaining to the former

president donald trump. >> yeah, it sort of vividly displays what 2024 is going to be about, this presidential campaign. also, they are threatening to destabilize the world order by either pulling out of nato or suggesting that russia should invade countries that don't pay their dues. a day like this where alexei navalny dies, the russian opposition leader. we are reminded out of the cruelty and violence that defines vladimir putin and his reign. >> and vice president kamala harris in munich a short time ago making a speech rebutting that argument just made by donald trump about withdrawing from the world, isolationism, abandoning our allies, reminding americans and the world, a very busy morning and the coverage continues after a short break with ana cabrera, josé diaz-balart, and we will see you right back here on monday morning on "morning joe."

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