♪♪ good morning, thanks for joining us, i'm ana cabrera along with josé diaz-balart here in new york for special coverage of a pretrial hearing in georgia that could jeopardize the entire fulton county rico case against former president donald trump. >> we expect the court to resume any minute now, as soon as a key witness arrives at the courthouse. willis, however, will not be taking the stand today after delivering a fiery defense thursday calling allegations she benefitted financially from a romantic relationship with her deputy on the case lies and forcefully reminding the court that she is not the one on trial. we're also awaiting a verdict in the $370 million new york civil fraud trial against former president trump and his

name sake business. now, this verdict could come at any time. international condemnation growing after vladimir putin's biggest political rival reportedly dies in prison. the circumstances surrounding his death leaving many asking was the kremlin directly involved? >> let's begin with the second day of that hearing into fulton county district attorney fani willis and the allegations of misconduct. we want to go right to the atlanta courthouse where katie phang is joining us. court is in recess right now, but we are expecting this second day of testimony in this blockbuster hearing to get underway very soon. what should we expect? >> reporter: so ana and jose, as always, things are so fluid. we knew that fani willis had basically left the stand yesterday but was still subject to cross examination by her own state of georgia lawyers. this morning it was announced that there were no questions for fani willis. she has been excused from testimony. she's done. we are waiting for the arrival of mr. terrence bradley.

if his name sounds familiar to you all, it's because he is the former divorce lawyer for may nathan wade. he showed up yesterday, he eventually took the stand, but then there was immediate legal wrangling over the attorney/client privilege and whether or not it prevented him from being able to provide testimony about significantly the timing of the personal relationship between nathan wade and fani willis. mr. bradley on his way to court according to his lawyers, once he arrives court will resume, and we should hear some testimony from him. >> and so i mean, willis testified for hours yesterday. we're also hearing from several other witnesses. what is the judge considering this morning? >> so the judge based upon i think when you have somebody like mr. bradley back on the stand, the judge is now not going to focus on the finances so much as the time line of that personal relationship, and everybody asks, jose, why should we care about the timing of

that? well because part of the motion to disqualify d.a. fani willis hedges on the idea that because of that personal relationship she had with nathan wade as a special prosecutor that she appointed that that's why she appointed him, that she put him into that position so that he would actually reap some financial windfall that she would be able to participate in. recall yesterday, a former d.a. fulton county employee and former friend of fani willis said that, in fact, their relationship began in october of 2019, not in march of 2022, which is what wade and willis are saying. terrence bradley's testimony could be very interesting, if he supports the defense's theory that, in fact, that personal relationship began between l willis and wade before he was appointed special prosecutor. >> thank you very much, stay close, obviously, joining us now, andrew weissmann, former fbi general counsel, charles

coleman, and chuck rosenberg, former u.s. attorney and senior fbi official. it was a dramatic day in court yesterday, and we last heard fani willis herself on the stand. she was pretty confrontatioal, she had lengthy answers to show she had nothing to hide. were you surprised the state did not bring her back to the stand today? >> i thought it was a really smart move. i agree with you, yesterday was a roller coaster. it was sort of like up, down, up, down. that's the way trials work. we're not at the end of it. we could have a lot more as katie just said. i think it was a really smart move for the state not to ask any questions. why? one, she got her story out. she spoke at length for hours so there's not a lot to gain by asking her more questions, and what did they do by not asking any questions? one, they signaled to the judge we didn't -- she wasn't damaged at all. she wasn't hurt.

there was nothing -- they didn't sort of lay a glove on her so you don't need to ask any questions. second, by not asking questions you do not give the defense another opportunity to ask questions because if you don't ask questions, there's nothing to rebut, so i think it was a very smart move. >> charles, we were here yesterday at this very same time when it was about a half hour into what we learned to be an up and down roller coaster day. what do you expect today, and what do you think the impact of willis's testimony was yesterday? >> i think fani willis took a case that was in doubt, and she placed it firmly in the hands of her office. i think that after mr. wade testified there was some questions as to the credibility of his story, what it was he was saying and of course there was ms. yeartie, and she testified in a way that was going to be harm. there were legitimate questions, i think, as to whether they were going to find her fit, rather,

to move forward with this prosecution, but i think that her testimony added context to what mr. wade testified to and did enough to refute what ms. yeartie said in a way that ultimately dispelled any of those questions. in terms of today, what i'm looking for is can the defense put on a witness or witnesses that are going to create a legitimate controversy such that they can advance this argument around disqualification. they have not done it at this point, at any sort of opening that they had, ms. willis closed with her testimony on the stand. i think fani willis did an exceptional yob. she came across as being relatively personable. it's an understandable passion that she had. she did come in hot. a lot of people got upset when i said that. after that first break the judge gave her, she settled in, she hit a rhythm, and she was very, very clear in her testimony about what it was that she wanted to get out. despite the fact that she

basically walked merchant around the courtroom in terms of her inability to control her as a witness, that's just a matter of lawyering and skill. ultimately she did what she needed to do, so now the defense has to put a witness on that's going to create a controversy. >> she had incoming from multiple defense attorneys because, again, these charges or this allegation, i should say was brought by michael roman, one of the co-defendants. trump's attorney was there questioning her. another attorney was there questioning her because some of these other co-defendants had sort of jumped onto this motion that she should be disqualified. chuck, i'm curious to get your take, after all we witnessed yesterday, did fani willis help or hurt herself, and what are you watching for today? >> i agree with charles. i think she helped herself, and by helping herself, more importantly she's helping the district attorney's office and the people of fulton county. that should be her goal, not self-preservation, doing justice to the people she's sworn to

serve. >> and the case of course they have before them into election interference. >> cases matter a lot more than she does. this is precisely why, ana, jurors are always told to consider all of the evidence, right? if we had all voted after the first witness, we might have voted one way. if we had all voted after the second witness, we might have voted another way. jurors are routinely told by the judge at a beginning of a trial to consider all of the evidence and all of the arguments that they hear and of course they're not permitted to vote until all the evidence is done and all the arguments are done, and they've been instructed on the law. here of course, no jury so the judge plays the role of trier of fact, but i think it's a good reminder for all of us to consider all of the evidence. more to come. >> looking at this, there seemed to be many different layers and levels to what was being discussed. first, when did you all start

dating? then when was it a romantic relationship, and then where did you go with him, and then who paid for what and was it a business credit card or cash? all of these different layers and levels, what -- remind us once again basically the ethos of this case going on is what? >> exactly. so people who are thinking this case is being focused right now on when is there a relationship and is it improper to have a relationship, no. that is not what this case is about. it is also not that fani willis is on trial. that is also not the case. what the judge is looking for is follow the money. he is concerned about is there a contract that the d.a.'s office has with mr. wade that the d.a. herself is profiting from? that is what he said i am interested in. there is so far uncontradicted

evidence from mr. wade and ms. willis that they didn't -- they split everything. there's a whole issue about, you know, is it credible? because there's an issue of he paid times, she paid at times, and she says i repaid in cash and i didn't use venmo or zelle or any sort of app. but there is no contrary evidence. so to my mind, what i'm looking for is will there be contrary evidence to that issue, the finance issue presented by the defense? because that's why we're here. >> right, so charles we're going to hear from this terrence bradley, who's a former divorce lawyer for nathan wade, also former business partner for nathan wade. they've worked out the attorney/client privilege issues that were all tangling things up yesterday at the start of the hearing, if you are michael roman's attorney who brought this allegation forward and are

trying to get the case dismissed on all of this, what needs to happen today? >> michael roman did everything he could being the cyber sleuth he is to try ask basically extract information from mr. wade's divorce proceedings to try and lead them to a victory to give them the dots to make a connection, and the attorneys haven't done it, and they need to. and so to andrew's point and what most lawyers who are now familiar with disqualification law in the state of georgia are saying, you have to actually make a connection that is going to create an actual conflict. these pieces, these suggestions, these inferences that have led us to this point are not sufficient to get us to a point of disqualification. so if you want the disqualification that you've moved for, you've gotten a hearing that you asked for, you put all the stuff in the pleadings. now you have to actually connect the dots through witness testimony and other evidence. i'm sure based off the line of

questioning they had around ms. willis and the cash that they were not expecting her to have an answer for where are the bank transactions that would substantiate this? she substantiated that through the testimony she provided. she gave context. that's out the window, so how are you now going to connect the dots in such a way that substantiated your story that somehow she was receiving an improper benefit and therefore should be disqualified? if i'm mr. roman and i'm looking at my attorneys, i'm thinking to myself i've given you as many bread crumbs as i can to lead you to the promised land, i need you to get us there. >> thank you all. stay close, we'll have much more of the special coverage coming right up. up next, breaking news this morning out of russia as the country's prison service announces one of vladimir putin's top opponents is dead. >> how his wife and top u.s. officials including vice president harris are reacting when we're back after a short break. don't go anywhere. ter a short break. don't go anywhere. iratory diseav in people 60 years and older. it's not for everyone and may not protect all who receive it.

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news, russian opposition leader and long-time putin critic alexei navalny has died in prison, according to russians prison officials. nbc's chief foreign correspondent richard engel has the latest. >> reporter: alexei navalny was the most powerful opposition figure in all of russia. he was a fearless opponent of vladimir putin. he was an anticorruption campaigner. he'd been arrested many times, and now he is dead according to prison officials in russia. alexei navalny was moved in december after disappearing for a few weeks, moved to a penal colony in siberia, a frozen gulag 2,000 miles away from moscow. and according to the prison officials, he took a walk this morning, immediately began to feel unwell, lost consciousness, that he was given medical attention, but that the staff at the prison were unable to revive

him and confirmed his death and that news of his death was relayed to vladimir putin. already we're hearing a lot of skepticism about this official account of events here in ukraine, president zelenskyy said that it was putin who's responsible for his death, that putin had navalny killed one way or another in order to hold onto power. as russia's leading opposition figure, alexei navalny piled pressure on the kremlin and put a target on his back. born in 1976 in what was then the soviet union, navalny trained as a lawyer and rose to prominence as a political blogger. in 2011 he started the anti-corruption foundation, which exposed the extravagant wealth of russian officials including president vladimir putin. >> the biggest thing that putin is afraid of is public discontent in russia, and that is why it's so afraid of opposition leaders. >> navalny's and putin's stars

were intertwined as putin tightened his dprip on power, navalny became a leading figure at antigovernment protests. we will force them to live by the law because we hold the power here, he shouted. he was arrested countless times and turned attacks to his advantage. in 2017 after announcing his intentions to run for president, navalny was attacked with green dye twice. maybe the kremlin thinks that i will not record videos with a green face, he said, but now even more people will watch. in 2019 as navalny's anticorruption foundation gained support nationally, police raided their officers and arrested several activists including, of course, navalny. but in 2020, his life was threatened like never before. on a plane traveling from siberia to moscow, navalny became deathly ill.

he fell into a coma and was put on a ventilator. while recovering in a german hospital, investigators revealed he had been poisoned with a soviet era neurotoxin. navalny blamed putin for the attack, a claim the kremlin denies. miraculously navalny recovered and participated in the investigation into his own poisoning, documenting the whole thing on social media. despite the threats against his life, in january 2021, navalny and his wife voluntarily returned to moscow where he was immediately arrested, ostensibly for violating the terms of a 2014 embezzlement case. once in jail, he was tried and sentenced to more than nine years in a maximum security prison. navalny said the charges were politically motivated. but even behind bars, he found ways to make his voice heard using social media to protest the ukraine war and needle those

in power. his legacy is one of defiance, a constant thorn in the side of the kremlin. navalny's aides and members of his inner circle have not confirmed his death, but they say if true it is not a matter of alexei navalny dying but of alexei navalny having been killed by vladimir putin. >> this morning vice president harris is with world leaders in munich for the annual security conference giving this reaction to navalny's death at a top of a major speech on foreign policy. >> my prayers are with his family including his wife yulia who is with us today, and if confirmed, this would be a further sign of putin's brutality. whatever story they tell, let us be clear russia is responsible. >> joining us now from munich is nbc news chief foreign affairs correspondent andrea mitchell. andrea, navalny's wife yulia

spoke just after vice president kamala harris there in munich. what did she have to say? >> reporter: well, it was, you know, a shock to the entire conference here at this summit in munich. she had been here, she had, in fact, had dinner with friends including mike mcfaul, our friend and contributor, the former ambassador to moscow last night did not know that anything was wrong other than that he's been treated horribly in this gulag where he was sent in december about a thousand miles -- or 2,000 miles from moscow from where he had been before. at the top of her remarks, she was speaking in russian, this is the translation that she thought long and hard about speaking. she wanted to just go to her children and be with her family who are not here, of course, her daughter has been studying in the united states, but she thought about what alexei would do. she came right-on the stage

after vice president harris, and she said if true, they're hearing this from the russian news services. she said they always lie, but if it's true i want for putin and all his friends, the government to know they will pay a price for what they have done to our country with our family and with my husband, that day i say will come very soon. i want to call on the world to unite and defeat this evil. it was very dramatic and then she walked off the stage. what i've just learned now from our producer with secretary blinken who is now about 20 minutes from here on the outskirts of munich, and he's going to be doing a briefing, but back stage she apparently in a private room met with navalny's wife and i can only imagine the condolences. he's been a hero to the world. i've met with several former german officials here who were very close to her and to, of course, alexei navalny, he was someone who was the hope of the

opposition to vladimir putin and vice president harris's speech was devoted to a strong defense of america and the world. she talked about the isolationism of recent developments in the u.s., obviously donald trump and she was blistering about vladimir putin. and of course defense of ukraine which is on everyone's mind. i've been traveling with the bipartisan senate delegation and the congressional delegation, there are 45 members both house and senate. they have to explain america to the world. europe is very, very upset about the failure to approve money for ukraine, which europe has approved. >> you know, andrea, i'm so glad that you mentioned that he was being held in a gulag in siberia. i mean, it's as if, you know, stalin's torture chambers are still alive and well in russia, and i'm just wondering have you heard any reaction from, you

know, world leaders or people there that are in munich to the death of someone who stood up against authoritarianism and in many ways totalitarianism and paid with his life? >> reporter: well, he went back twice to russia knowing that it was a virtual death sentence, and the reaction here is horror. it's not unexpected. he had been ill and had been treated so badly, but he went for a walk. he just went for a walk and then got ill, and he was not ill yesterday. he did a video within 24 hours. so this was sudden and the -- is this was another assassination by the russian intelligence, you know, assassins. of course in germany there is a leading russian assassin, an fsb member who is in jail, and he is being held out by putin as the only trade for, you know, evan

gershkovich. that is the demand he repeated in that ridiculous non-interview with tucker carlson this week. i talked with a top official, u.s. official they're obviously in talks with germany and others around the world with how to get evan gershkovich out. he's now been there almost a year. the fear is what have happens to people in russian prisons, it can be a death sentence. >> and we know -- andrea, thank you for that reporting. we know that in times past, president biden has said there would be devastating consequences if navalny died in prison, so we obviously have a developing story here and we'll continue to stay right on top of every turn. next, verdict watch in donald trump's fraud trial. how much money he could have to pay and what happens to his business empire. >> much more of our special coverage right after a short break. don't go anywhere. short break. don't go anywhere. ask about nurtec odt.

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blockbuster georgia hearing. we are also expecting a decision any moment now in former president donald trump's new york city fraud trial. >> he could be forced to pay up to $370 million, and he could end up banned for life from new york's real estate businesses. now, the judge has already ruled trump engaged in fraud, so let's get to our yasmin vossoughian outside trump tower for, you know, what we can expect here. what do we know, yasmin, about when and how it might come down this verdict today? >> good morning, you guys, good to talk to both of you. we know it's today. we don't know the timing of it. initially it was expected that engoron was going to deliver a decision in late january and then it got pushed to early february and now we're looking to today for this major decision to come down. you said it, and it's important to note again, engoron has already ruled that the former president along with the trump org have engaged in fraud, right?

is that not the question today. the question today is how much, to what degree did they engage in that fraudulent activity. letitia james asking for $370 million along with the former president and trump organization essentially being banned from engaging in real estate activity in the city. you think about that, you think about his brand, who he has been through the '80s and '90s. this is going to be -- this decision today, guys, however it comes town and especially considering that engoron has already ruled he engaged in fraud is going to be a real gut punch to the former president. this started on october 2nd, the former president along with his three children testifying in this trial. >> yasmin, we're talking about that $370 million, prosecutors were originally asking for 250 at the start of the trial. so break down how that number for us changed and varied.

>> reporter: so it's not very complicated, essentially it's for instance interest accrued from money that was fraudulently obtained. it is bonuses that were given, for instance, to allen weisselberg who helped fraudulently come up with some of these documents. it was valuations of property that were sold off, and that's how letitia james is coming up with this now new number of 370 million. i quickly, though, want to walk you through some of the assets that donald trump is looking at in the city now. it's got to be made clear, the only building that donald trump owns, the trump organization owns and operates in this city fully is the building behind me. it's trump tower. all the other buildings with his name on it, many of them his name has only been licensed. for instance, he owns a building around the corner with only a 30% stake in that. so forbes essentially estimating his overall real estate value throughout the city is just over $400 million or so. the value of trump tower behind

me, various estimations have been made around 200 million, 250 million, 150 million, although he's got $100 million in debt in this building, so his net profit, if he were to sell it, he would walk away with only 50 million or so. 370 million possibly, 83 million to e. jean carroll along with another 5 million from that previous judgment on the e. gene carroll defamation case, that's going to be a lot of money. some of it may have to come from the assets he owns in the city. >> yasmin vossoughian, thank you so much. stay close. let's bring back andrew weissmann, as we're waiting for this verdict, the judge in this case already found there was fraud committed by trump by his children who run this business and by a couple of his execs. so what goes into the decision on the penalty? >> sure, so there are some

additional liability causes of action that we will get a decision on. it's sort of somewhat irrelevant. it's icing because there's already one finding with respect to the first cause of action. just to anticipate what we should expect is there will be six other causes of action. there are different elements to that. that's why there's still a decision on that. the big issue is the penalty. what will the amount be, and then also is donald trump going to be barred for life, which is what the state wants to do is bar him for life saying this is recidivist. he is a recidivist fraudster, we have to protect new york citizens. he needs to be barred. finally, whatever the amount is if there isn't sort of ready cash because there's a monitor, there can be forced sales where someone -- the court with a monitor will oversee forcing the sale of a sufficient number of assets until the money is paid. >> and so, charles, if the judge

decides, i don't know, 370, could he ask -- could he decide for more? and let's say that he says, yes, 370 million, done deal, is that a final deal for trump, or is there some avenue for him to go forward? >> well, to your first question, the judge could ultimately impose additional penalties other than what the state attorney general has asked. i don't necessarily think that that's going to happen here. the biggest question as andrew has already talked about is whether he's going to get the corporate death penalty. i do not believe he will. it's been given out a handful of times in the history of new york state and under a very specific set of circumstances we don't have here. i do agree if he does, the biggest argument in favor of that will be his penchant for recidivism. that is going to be the thing. in terms of whether this is going to be the final issue for donald trump, my answer to you is absolutely not. he is going to appeal this order regardless of whatever the amount is. he's absolutely going to appeal

the amount -- he could file it in new york state court of appeals. he could try there. and that's ultimately where it's going to be heard. and he is going to do that, not only with this judgment, but also with this state judgment with regard to e. jean carroll. that's also going to be something that he appeals in terms of the amount that has been levied on him because as yasmin already talked about , this is a guy who doesn't have the money. regardless of whatever it is that engoron ultimately decides. >> chuck, coming back to whether the former president could be barred for life from leading business in this state, do you think that's likely? >> yeah, i actually don't know. i mean, i trust charles's instincts on that. he's quite right that that corporate death penalty barring

somebody for life from doing business is rather unusual. but we're not going to know the answer to this for quite some time. again, to charles' point, mr. trump is going to appeal any verdict here, and it will be an adverse verdict, there's no doubt about that. he's certainly going to appeal the verdicts in the two cases brought by e. jean carroll. it could be years, i hope not, but it could be years before we have any final resolution. so i'm looking, primarily, ana, to see the reasoning in the judge's decision today. what conclusions did he draw from the evidence? how does he articulate that in his order? because of course as the finder of fact in this case, it's his findings and his order that are going to be scrutinized on appeal. >> chuck, real quick, we heard from trump on the stand during this trial. we heard from his two sons, don jr. and eric trump, and i know

intent is a piece of this, right , when it comes to the penalty here. do you think that their testimony helped them potentially or hurt them more? >> yeah, again, it will turn -- great question -- on whether or not the judge found them credible. intent actually was not a requisite factor. it was not an element of the biggest core piece of this case. the one in which the judge has already found that mr. trump committed fraud, but andrew is right, there were six other causes of action. those do require intent. and it will be the judge and the judge alone who determines whether or not mr. trump and his sons and all the other witnesses for that matter, whether or not they were credible. >> we were talking about the unusual case of using what you guys call the corporate death sentence, right? but how unusual is this case in general? >> it's fairly unusual for this

size and as charles said, the idea of barring somebody. you have seen from time to time the attorney general's office in new york seek to bar someone for a shorter period of time. indeed they're seeking to bar both of the sons for five years. i can't say that's typical, but there is a really good argument that they put forward as to why donald trump senior should be treated differently. remember that there has been a finding of civil fraud with respect to the trump -- what's the right word? educational institution, if you want to even call it that, that it wasn't real. you have a criminal conviction with the trump organization for tax fraud just last year, that's a criminal case beyond a reasonable doubt. you have this case where the judge has already found fraud. so if you're looking for a pattern of recidivism and then you can throw in the defamation and the sexual assaults with

respect to e. jean carroll at the federal level, but you have a whole history. >> are all those things to be considered? >> that's all information that the judge can consider in deciding should this person be allowed to do business in new york and because what the judge has tad is consider what is the bright step to protect new yorkers. that is what the attorney general's tasked with doing, and i suspect that you will find some amount of time that donald trump is barred, and i should say also, with respect to the judgment, even with an appeal and certainly he has a right to appeal, so he should be able to do that, anybody should be able to do that. but there are mechanisms both at the federal level for e. jean carroll and at the state level to assure that there's money in the kitty that the court has that money so that if the judgment's affirmed on appeal, there's money to make the state or e. jean carroll whole.

this isn't something that while the appeal happens he gets to dissipate his assets, there's a way to make sure that the money is there now and doesn't go away. >> the totality of it? >> yeah, absolutely. >> i do want to play a quick clip from trump's attorney, alina habba, here's her response. >> if i could file the appeal now, i would, you know, there's no surprises coming here. it's much of the same that we've seen in new york and i'll be loud and booming right after we get the decision. i mean, i'm not -- i don't have high hopes. >> charles, she doesn't have high hopes. she's saying no surprises. what do you think? >> there are no surprises. we know what's coming and at this point they're reading from a script, particularly when it comes to him and these judgments. these are things that they know are not going to go their way. it's just a question of how bad is bad in terms of what judge engoron is going to decide. so this is not a surprise to anyone including her and she's basically at this point got a

template for the appeal and just got to plug in the numbers. i mean, whatever arguments that she's going to make, they're really going to be, well, is it appropriate to bar us for whatever period that you've barred us if he goes that route, and we're going to argue about the amount of money that is being levied on us regardless of what it is because our argument has been from the gate. we paid the banks back. so this is not a surprise to her or anyone else, and at this point, like i said, they're just reading from a script. >> andrew weissmann, charles coleman, chuck rosenberg, thank you all. up next, we're going to turn back to georgia, if fani willis is disqualified, it could not only derail trump's case, but potentially her own career. don't forget, she's also an elected official. >> so how this could all play out when she's up for re-election and the larger reaction in georgia to what we've heard in this hearing so far. we're back after a short break. don't go anywhere. if rz after a short break don't go anywhere. if r were nausea, indigestion and stomach pain. talk to your doctor about nurtec today.

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make housing more affordable. and drug company ceos to stop their price gouging. most politicians just fight each other. while katie porter fights for you. for senate - democrat katie porter. i'm katie porter and i approve this message. . welcome back. we're keeping our eyes on the fulton county courtroom where we were expecting d.a. fani willis to retake the stand this morning after her fiery testimony yesterday where she said the allegations of misconduct against her were a lie. but then in a twist this morning, the state said they didn't have any questions to ask willis. >> so now we're waiting for a key witness to arrive at court before things get back underway. with us now, political reporter for the atlanta journal and an msnbc political contributor.

you've been in touch with your colleagues in court. do you have any idea of what we're expecting to happen when things could get started this morning? >> yeah, we understand the holdup involves some legal back and forth over what questions prosecutors can ask terrence bradley without violating attorney/client privilege. judge mcafee has said he's the tar witness in all of this. he's a friend of nathan wade who briefly served as his divorce attorney. he could refute a key claim made by fani willis and nathan wade, which is that their relationship didn't begin until after he was appointed as the personal prosecutor in this case. his testimony is much watched. >> they didn't get very far with him yesterday because of these attorney/client privilege issues. we are told that the defense lawyer merchant has been -- has returned to the courtroom, so we'll keep an eye as soon as this all gets going, we'll dive in. if willis ultimately is disqualified, greg, what happens then? are there any other georgia

prosecutors who you think would approach this case the same way? >> yeah, that's such a good question. the case would be thrown into limb limbo, and it would likely be up to -- that is a nonpartisan state agency but doesn't mean it's not political, and so far in the other sort of test case for how this agency would act, it is up to that agency to appoint a prosecutor to investigate lieutenant governor burt jones who fani willis was disqualified from investigating. it has been 18 months and no prosecutor has been appointed to investigate lieutenant governor burt jones. this is not an agency that is aggressive about agenting. >> yesterday andrew was talking about ups and downs, so many unexpected twists and turns. what's been the reaction to the testimony so far from georgia officialings and the georgia legal community? >> of course fani willis isn't necessarily on trial herself, but her integrity, her

credibility is. there are a lot of concerns from, you know, you can expect the regular pushback from republicans saying that she's hurt her own case. some democrats were eager to defend her, others not so much. what i have noticed was that in the last few weeks i've been aggressively and my team has been aggressively trying to get democrats to go on the record about fani willis, after yesterday several democratic leaders did go on the record defending her saying she did the right thing taking the stand acknowledging issues, responding to the explosive allegations made in these legal claims by michael roman and his attorneys. and so there is a sort of rallying around the flag effect right now, but there's also deep concerns that her credibility, no matter what happens could be undermined. >> and this morning you wrote about how fani willis is up for re-election this november. what's your sense of how this case and particularly her testimony could impact that race? >> it's really difficult to beat any incumbent for a county wide office like this one, but fani

willis has shown that it's possible. she beat a six-term incumbent paul howard in 2020. a lot of people forget that she's on the ballot again this november. it's very likely that she'll face a republican opponent who wants to turn this into a proxy fight over whether she's handling this case appropriately. she also could face a democratic challenger. it's unlikely, but there is talk about a democratic challenger as well. but of course she has incumbency, and she also has a lot of supporters on her side who are saying that she's doing the right thing by pressing this case forward. >> greg bluestein, thank you so much, really appreciate it. of course we'll be keeping our eye on this hearing in georgia and bring it to you as soon as it resumes. first, what we know about the charges against an fbi informant accused of lying to the bureau about hunter biden and his father. we'll have much more special coverage after a short break. stay right there. a short break stay right there now there's skyrizi, so you can show up with clearer skin...

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it's hard to explain what this feels like. ♪♪ moving piles of earth. towing up to 4,000 lbs. cutting millions of blades of grass. nothing compares to experiencing it for yourself. you just have to get in the seat. welcome back. we're going to take you right to georgia now, to fulton county, where the hearing is getting back under way in this allegation of fani willis and misconduct related to a relationship with the special prosecutor. let's listen. >> -- is something that given the allegations in the case is certainly relevant. >> doesn't sound like it would be all that long a witness anyhow. all right. in that case, we can transition over. miss cross, you can call your

witness. >> the state calls governor roy barnes. >> you told us not to ask questions, so we did not ask any of our witnesses about qualifications and the state is now bringing in evidence of that, we ask -- >> sounds to me -- miss cross? >> if you want to ask governor barnes about his qualification, that's something you have knowledge of, i don't know his base of knowledge for anyone else's qualifications might be, but that doesn't open the door to what my understanding of the testimony is going to be. >> the issue of qualification versus who is the first choice is going to be relevant to intent maybe and perhaps the issue of the case. i don't think that opens the door. we'll see how it goes.

>> okay, we're just watching here with you and trying to learn and decipher what is happening in the courtroom. they had taken a break to prepare for a witness who wasn't there at that moment when this hearing began, almost two hours ago. and now it appears that there is additional wrinkle into who the state wants to call as a witness. >> also, the fact that we were expecting the -- not the -- the state not to begin presenting their witnesses because we were expecting among others terrence bradley to be coming and wondering andrew and charles what do you think is happening? is the state's bringing in their witnesses mean the other folks simply are finished? >> unclear. there is one of two things happening. either the defense has no more

witnesses. i think probably more likely is that they're taking a witness out of turn. there is some scheduling reason that the state needs to put its witness on now so that would be my guess as to what we're seeing. >> and, in my ear if you will, we heard mention, a former governor -- floyd brown -- >> lloyd barnes. >> lloyd -- excuse me, roy barnes who it sounded like they were discussing calling who is a former governor in the state of georgia. what would they want to hear from him, do you think, charles? >> it is difficult to say. primarily because we have not necessarily heard from everyone on the defense side because when you're in a situation like this, part of why you're calling witnesses is to rebut the case that has been put forward and we haven't heard the completion of that case. what i might assume is to offer some level of testimony as to

what -- as a governor, perhaps, he would look for in a prosecutor or a special prosecutor, and it is important and his appointment. it is unclear to what extent we're going to have testimony from the former governor of georgia that would be material for this. but i do want to point a few things out f you're looking at the screen right now, the woman to the far left with the gray hair, that is the former mayor of atlanta, shirley franklin, who presumably is not there just for observation purposes. it is safe to assume that she and others who are present in that audience are there in support of d.a. fani willis. and i think that is a very, very strong show of support from the atlanta community. if you're talking about what this means for fani willis as a prosecutor, as an elected official, as a public ooffician, it matters. you have the former governor roy barnes taking the stand and i believe we're going to listen in. >> that is the former governor, roy barnes, now being sworn in

to get his testimony. let's go in. >> roy eugene barnes. r-o-y e-u-g-e-n-e b-a-r-n-e-s. >> good morning. can you tell the court about your background in service, in public service? >> i was first elected to the state senate in 1974 from cobb county. i went back to the house of representatives, i was elected to the house of representatives, served six years until i was elected governor in 1998 and i served in that position until january of 2003. >> and after serving in the

position of governor, can you tell the court a little bit about what you transitioned into after your public service? >> i did exactly what i was doing before, i was elected, i went back to practicing law in marietta, georgia, with my daughter who is now judge of the state court and my son-in-law. and now we have, i think, six or seven lawyers, charlie bailey back there was one of them at one time. >> okay. and, governor barnes, would you consider yourself to be a trial lawyer? >> yes. we don't write contracts or we don't write wills, all we do is try cases. >> and i want to direct your attention back to 2021, were you approached by the district attorney of fulton county, fani willis, about being a special prosecutor? >> i was. i don't recall the exact date,

but i know it was sometime in 2021, and she asked me to come down and i met with her and nathan wade and there were several others in the meeting. she asked me -- they were beginning this investigation, and she asked me if i would be interested in being special prosecutor, to which i replied that i had mouths to feed at a law office and that i could not -- i would not do that. and also i just had a bad -- well, i won't say bad, because it happens from time to time, but i just had fbi to report a fella to me that said they were concerned that he was making threats against me. and because i was -- i thought it was because of the flag, but i asked him, he said, no, it was

because i was too close to the jews, quote, unquote, and i told d.a. willis i didn't -- i lived with bodyguards for four years, and i didn't like it, and i wasn't going to live with bodyguards for the rest of my life. >> ultimately you turned down -- >> yes. yeah, i told her, i said, i'm not interested. >> nothing further from the state. >> miss merchant? good morning, governor barnes, how are you? >> just fine. good to see you. >> good to see you. you said it was sometime in 2021. >> i think it was. i don't remember the dates. i could look it up on my calendar at the office, but i don't have that. >> well, i want to ask you about some statements that miss willis made march 28