testimony, fani willis's dad takes the stand as his daughter faces disqualification from donald trump's case. what he revealed about the nightmare security threats she's faced from people who said they wanted to blow up her house and kill her family. plus, when he said he first found out about her relationship with the special prosecutors she's now accused of having an affair with. and up here in new york, a critical decision looming in trump's landmark civil fraud case, will the former president be hit with $370 million in fines and a lifetime ban from doing business in new york. i'll talk to someone who was in the room covering the entire trial. our nbc news reporters are following all of the latest developments. let's go first to msnbc legal correspondent, katie phang who's in georgia. a long delay before testimony started today. what have we heard that's critical here. >> well, as you and i are

talking right now, chris, the former divorce attorney, terrence bradley for nathan wade, he's on the stand behind me in the fulton county courthouse. there's been so much back and forth, a lot of legalese about the scope of his knowledge, whether terrence bradley found out information about nathan wade's personal life. the defense said there was fraud perpetrated on the court, that nathan wade lied in affidavits, the judge says no. the thing called the crime fraud exception, the idea that the attorney/client privilege can be pierced that you can get into the otherwise private and confidential communications if a crime of fraud has been perpetrated. the judge said no, you have not met the standard. it does not apply here. i'm not going to allow the questioning into these type of scope of relationship questions, about willis and wade. terrence bradley is not

answering those questions at the time and the lawyers are moving forward carefully, trying to ask questions on a question-by-question basis. i want to bring in former federal prosecutor, renato, as we just heard they have been questioning nathan wade's former law partner who handled his divorce about what he knew about this relationship. when they got to the key question of when it began, here's what he said. >> i have no personal knowledge of when it actually happened. i was not there. i do not have any personal knowledge, so i will choose not to answer that question. >> so i'm wondering what you think might have been accomplished here versus putting fani willis's dad on the stand? >> well, i think it was an

attempt, essentially, by the defendants here to have a crack at trying to get a waiver of attorney/client privilege. notice how that question is worded. they're asking him a question that he doesn't have personal knowledge of, and, chris, he could have just answered and given the answer to that, but if he did that, he would have been revealing what his client told him. i think what they were hoping is this lawyer was a little less careful, a little less cautious, and ultimately they were able to kind of get some information about exactly what wade said, potentially find some inconsistencies. candidly, the defendants need some sort of a break here in order to defeat this motion. it's not going well for them so far. >> renato mariotti, thank you for that. please stick around. that decision expected soon in the new york civil fraud trial against donald trump. yasmin vossoughian is outside trump tower. talk a little more about the stakes here.

>> reporter: everything, chris. everything is at stake here. the last four decades of the former president's life, his legacy, his family's legacy as well, what he'll pass down to his kids, $370 million is what letitia james is asking for. the former president banned for life when it comes to conducting real estate business in this city, his sons potentially banned for the next five years. you think about that. you think about his real estate assets that he may have to liquidate in order to pay off this date, $83 million, plus $5 million to e. jean carroll, the only building he outright owns in this city is trump tower mind me, valued by forbes at 160 million or so. he has $100 million in debt. if he were to sell that off, he would get $60 million. total assets in new york city, $690 million. that's just about half of what he owes, possibly, if this decision comes down the way we

expect it to from judge engoron. let's not forget, he has already said, the former president and trump organization has engaged in fraud. this is just about how much. the question is will, in fact, the former president appeal this decision? i think you know the answer to that, chris, yes, and we heard it from afrom, they have done n wrong. we'll get through this, we'll file an appeal within 30 days. any moment we're going to be hearing this decision from judge engoron. >> thank you so much for that. let me bring lisa rubin back in. can i ask you maybe just one process question, right. this decision, we have been waiting for it to come down. the anticipation is it could come out literally any minute now, sometime this afternoon. >> no pressure. >> a long weekend is coming up, so the judge gets to presumably go home or go wherever he's

going to go. it's just going to be a written statement to be handed out. will it be sent via electronics? what's going to happen? what's the process? >> my understanding is that it will be electronically filed in the public docket for this case, which is online in the new york state system. >> so are literally all the reporters sitting around hitting refresh? >> yeah, we're all like that kermit the frog meme that you may have seen on twitter. if any viewers were with us last hour and saw me looking down, it wasn't me being disrespectful to the conversation, the last number on the docket is 1676. 1688 is what we're looking for. >> would we expect it to be folsom. is he likely to gif a long explanation of how he came to the decision? >> he is. he heard multiple weeks of testimony and the presentation of documentary evidence. in reaching a result here, he's

going to cite from folks who are on the witness stand, what exactly they said. he's going to cite to documents, and so that is what i would consider a folsom record. it may not be as long as some of the federal opinions that you and i have been accustomed to reading. i have been for a long time. it won't be like some of the supreme court opinions that we read, but i would estimate that this ruling is at least going to be in the 30-page realm and likely far in excess of that. probably in excess of 50 pages if i were a betting person. >> we're going to have a situation, we're going to be reading along with other folks and interpreting, but there will be a place where it says very clearly point a, which is how much money, and point b is his business not able to operate anymore. >> from a process perspective, that will be at the back of the opinion. one thing that is not well understood about this case, even though judge engoron found that

donald trump and others were liable for perpetuating a year's long fraud, there were several other claims that were left to be litigated, all of which necessitated a finding of intent, and all of which were were specific about things like falsifying business records or committing insurance fraud. he's going to have to make findings of fact, he's going to have to make a conclusion about the veracity of certain testimony or what proof was offered by the attorney general and how, if at all, it was rebutted by the trump defendants before he gets to the question of what are the appropriate remedies here for the conduct that the attorney general did or did not prove at trial. >> thank you, lisa rubin. i'll let you go back to refreshing. appreciate it. the reaction in the u.s. and around world to the reported death of vladimir putin's fiercest critic, alexei navalny. >> make no mistake, putin is responsible for navalny's death. .

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the reported death of russian opposition leader alexei navalny is added urgent security, after nearly 20 years as president, putin will almost certainly win another term in next month's election, but according to secretary of state antony blinken, the death of his main political rival only points to his vulnerability.

>> for more than a decade, russian government, putin, have persecuted, poisoned, and imprisoned alexei navalny, and now reports of his death. and the fixation and fear of one man only underscores the weakness and rot at the heart of the system that putin has built. >> navalny's death is fueling outrage around the world with demonstrators gathering in berlin, paris, and elsewhere, hailing navalny as a hero and calling putin an assassin and a murderer. in russia, the homeland navalny risked so much for, muted but highly symbolic scenes of mourning, as supporters leave a monument of victims to april oppression. joining us from munich, nbc news chief foreign affairs correspondent andrea mitchell

and msnbc national security analyst, clint watts. so andrea, tell us more about the response to navalny's death and the dramatic appearance today, by his widow. >> reporter: that was so dramatic, galvanizing. the conference here was in shock. not surprised because everyone expected at some point that this would happen to navalny. he had survived a previous assassination attempt, poisoning with a toxic substance, he had survived that and willingly gone back to russia to continue the fight against vladimir putin, knowing he would be imprisoned. he was on arrival, and knowing that imprisonment could mean death. and had still fought from prison and then finally the end of last year, they moved him to the gu lag, and the prison conditions became increasingly harsh, and his wife had said to close friends, that he seemed to be holding up. they had seen a video in the

last 24 to 48 hours that seemed okay. he had gone for a walk. this was so sudden, so shocking, expected but not expected if you know what i mean because people had viewed him as the living embodiment of the last he was g. at least according to the reports. so dramatically, just after kamala harris had come out and prefaced her prepared remarks very much targeted on putin and russia and the need to support ukraine. just after that and finished her prepared speech, out came ilya navalny, the tall dignified, beautiful and strong wife of navalny, and saying that she thought she wanted to be with her children, her family, but what would alexei do, and that's what drove her to come out on that stage and to just give a

standing ovation saying that she doesn't know if it's true, but if it's true, even though the russians are always lying and it was an announcement from russia from the prison authorities, she said if it's true, it's putin, and that he will pay the price for this. i'm paraphrasing, and that is of course what was echoed by the president of the united states in a passionate speech in the roosevelt room saying how this is another betrayal by putin. and this indicates the brutality of putin, and that it's cause for the house to finally pull itself together. and not go on a two-week vacation and pass the ukraine money, putin has to learn the united states will stand against russia. >> andrea mitchell, thank you. clint, the story that russia is telling is that alexei navalny went for a walk, he comes back,

he collapses and he dies. how difficult will it be to find out what really happened to alexei navalny? >> chris, i think it's probably almost impossible to know. i'm sure there's no witnesses that are going to come out. there's not going to be any alternative case studies of what happened, and the sad part of all of this as andrea was referring to is this is kind of what everyone expected would happen. his death, obviously done, you know, by the russian detainers, vladimir putin is responsible as president biden said. this is how everyone thought it would end. the domestic russian audience in an election year that there should be no opposition. in the last month, we have seen incredible anti-navalny propaganda and disinformation coming out inside russia, and internationally where you see at this event right now, really to try and send a signal to the west about their support for ukraine. and about their support for

democracy. >> i was thinking about exactly what you said as we watched some of the pictures and seeing people going to the monument in moscow to victims of political repression, just the very act of laying roses seems at a moment like this to be very brave. >> that's exactly right, chris. just looking at it, situationally, you might remember prigozhin, he had a failed march, headed toward moscow last year. a few months later, he suddenly dies in a mysterious plane explosion, likely the assassination by the putin administration. here, alexei navalny detained, look at the disinformation propaganda trying to undermine him. you see him killed. it will be an interesting perspective. will this galvanize resolve in russia, or will it be the

suppression mood where he sets out to really push down in any event dissent heading into another term as president. >> we've got live pictures come in to us of a protest in london. there you see them standing up and we heard andrea say this, that joe biden has said they will pay the price. he had warned previously in 2021, said that he had warned putin of devastating consequences if navalny died in prison. what do you imagine the conversations are like now about that, and what options the u.s. and its allies have? they're all together now, at least many of the leaders, including as we saw u.s. leader there is in munich. >> yeah, i think the first thing, chris, is just showing a strong front, whether it's nato and the eu really coming together. you know, doubling down in terms

of support. coming through with ukraine aid. that's all part of what they can do diplomatically, militarily. how many people fleed russia once the invasion of ukraine started. how many of those were folks that supported alexei navalny. the protest you see in london, not surprising how many russians are actually in the united kingdom. also not surprising, probably how many were supporters of navalny. there could be a very different populous movement, one that's more globally at a time that vladimir putin is working very hard to back european support and nato support to include the u.s. and canada for ukraine. >> and the vigil in munich as well. people responding very quickly to the death of a man who many considered to be an incredible brave hero. clint watts, thank you so much. appreciate it. in 60 seconds, will a ruling in

the trump civil fraud trial torpedo his business empire? we're keeping a close eye on the manhattan courthouse where the judge could hand down that decision any minute now. ...a vaccine to prevent lower respiratory disease from rsv in people 60 years and older. it's not for everyone and may not protect all who receive it. don't get abrysvo if you've had an allergic reaction to its ingredients. a weakened immune system may decrease your response. most common side effects are tiredness, headache, injection-site pain and muscle pain. ask your pharmacist or doctor about abrysvo today. ♪everything i do that's for my health is an accomplishment.♪ ♪concerns of getting screened faded away♪ ♪to my astonishment.♪ ♪my doc gave me a script i got it done without a delay.♪ ♪i screened with cologuard and did it my way.♪ cologuard is a one-of-a-kind way to screen for colon cancer that's effective and non-invasive. it's for people 45 plus at average risk, not high risk.

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"the big cheat," how donald trump fleeced america and enriched himself and his family. and lisa rubin is back with us. you were in court for the trial. you have written extensively about donald trump's wealth, let's start with the basic question, is he financially solvent enough to pay a fine as big as $370 million remembering there's already that $83.3 million judgment that was in the e. jean carroll case. >> yeah, $370 million fine would not be easy for him to pay. especially if he had to pay it tomorrow, and especially if the $83 million fine also comes soon. a lot of this comes down to the question of timing, but if you think about the numbers, if this penalty is above say, 275, i would expect to see some sort of business response, and by that, a refinancing of certain assets. asset sales, if you see it above 325 million, i think it's a five alarm fire for the trump administration.

they would have to do sort of major restructuring. but i do think they would be able to come through it. if you get all the way up to 370, he's going to be in real trouble. i do think he'll be able to survive but it's going to take a whole lot of work to make that happen. >> what exactly are his assets, dan? there's a big question a lot of people have about still a lot of businesses, a lot of buildings that have his name on it. that doesn't mean he owns them, right? >> that's right. the real question is what are his assets that don't have significant leverage on them already. so he does have major assets that already have big loans. but the ones that don't, are, for example, mar-a-lago. the value of it is way up in the air. it's not hard to imagine a bank lending, for example, $50 million against mar-a-lago. right now, that asset has nothing against it. he also has a portfolio of golf clubs in the u.s. those are worth roughly about $260 million right now. they don't have significant

debt, so he could theoretically put loans against those and pull some money out. he also is sitting on roughly $400 million in cash. that's the starting point from which he will work to then try to solve whatever the size of the penalty is. >> does that seem like the starting point, david, how much do we know, and how much will the court demand to know about what he really has. let's, you know, even start with cash on hand, for people who don't deal in these things every day, those numbers are hard to even put their head around, if you hear he's worth a couple billion dollars. 370 million feels like he could write a check. >> chris, i begin with donald says he has $400 million cash. we don't have any in that whatsoever, except that he says that, and donald has a long history of saying things that do not hold up. secondly, donald has a history

of hidden obligations. for example, he bought mar-a-lago, and he paid cash for it. i have in my office here a letter by chase bank, promising to never record the mortgage on which they loaned him more than the purchasing price. which is illegal under new york banking law. donald's finances, i think, should always be approached with extraordinary skepticism. in addition, if his business certificates, business license, what we call the certificates in new york are taken away as i fully expect by judge engoron, then he's not in a position to do many things. there's a cloud under the title of everything he owns under the trump organization, and he'll have a difficult time getting financing for that. he also faces the prospect of being a convicted felon very soon, and there are rules ant banks doing business with convicted felons. >> on a very, i guess you would say, david, micro scale, i have heard that, for example, if you own an apartment in trump tower,

it's not worth what it used to be. and so that leads me to the question, is it possible if he has to sell something it's essentially going to have to be a fire sale? >> exactly correct, chris. if there are sales, and especially if they're done by the monitor or court appointee, they're probably not going to be bringing the best prices. now, real estate in new york for office space is down overall. trump rents a lot of that, and he's not going to on renewal be able to get the same rents he had. trump tower, when it opened technically in 1983, trump tower was one of only two buildings in manhattan where you didn't have to be checked out to buy a high end apartment. so lots of criminals, lots of people with money that they had

hidden from the tax man or spouses or litigants bought into this building and paid premium prices for it. so the value of their apartments has been based on, we don't care who you are. if you want to buy a business called snow link, is that a ski lodge in colorado or a cocaine business. >> i guess that brings us back to the judge, right. so lisa in a lot of fines in the legal world, if you get caught speeding, whether you're a billionaire or a college kid, the fine is a money bucks. whatever it says on the ticket, right? different here, and so here's my question, the ask 370 million. is that the starting point in the decision? how much of it is based on what the judge believes his net worth is, and how much pain he might want to inflict. >> let's go to the second part of your question first.

it's not based on net worth. it based on what the attorney general says were his ill gotten profits from this years long scheme of fraud, and they have distilled it down to four different categories. they say he saved interest on four commercial loans, and i'm reading from a submission from the attorney general to the tune of about $168 million. then they say he personally came out with almost $140 million in profits from the sale of the old post office, the government property in washington, d.c. where he built or at least maintained the trump international hotel that no longer operates under a trump brand name. when he sold the lease, he brought home $140 million. they say that was fraudulent because the money that he got to finance that was obtained through fraudulent financial statements. then they say he got $60 million from the sale of ferry point, a new york municipal golf course where trump held the license to

operate that golf course. in selling that license off, he made $60 million, and finally, the last $2.5 million of the $370 million ask doesn't come from trump at all. it comes from jeff mcconney, the former controller of the organization, and allen weisselberg, the former cfo. why? because they were each gifted generous severance agreements that were conditioned on their not cooperating, for example, voluntarily in the future with government investigations among other things, government's position here is that that too is part of the fraud. >> dan, we mentioned at the top that you have covered business and businesses for years. in that milieu, how complex and i guess questionable are the businesses surrounding donald trump? >> they're not that complex. this is, you know, a set of real estate assets. it's a random bunch of things

that a rich guy wanted to buy over several decades and did. what is complex is how he's accounted for things, the work his accountants have done in the financing of things, and of course david is absolutely right that donald trump for years has lied about the value of his assets. now, i will say back to that earlier point of how much cash he has in the bank right now, lisa just went through a couple of major reasons he's got a lot of cash. the sale of the d.c. hotel, the sale of ferry point, the golf course in the bronx. he also refinanced, 555 california street with his partner, and sucked out $160 million from that deal. if you add all of that up, and we have seen what the accounts are because they have been filed in court, you can see how much cash it is. this is not a huge mystery at this point. now, of course, are all of his documents, do they all add up? no, we've seen enough to have

confidence that that really is about how much he has. the question is what's the size of the penalty, and how much money can he suck out of other assets if he needs to do that. >> dan alexander, david k. johnson, thank you. lisa rubin, you're going to continue to stick around. how the allegations against fani willis have sparked conversations about race and gender. stay right here. nder stay right here. green. not you. you! your business bank account with quickbooks money now earns 5% apy. (♪♪) that's how you business differently. intuit quickbooks. [stomach growling] it's nothing... sounds like something. ♪when you have nausea, heartburn, indigestion♪ ♪upset stomach, diarrhea♪ pepto bismol coats and soothes for fast relief when you need it most. subway's tuna is off the hook! it's 100 percent wild-caught. this tuna is fishing for a compliment and i'm taking the bait. alright, i'm all punned out. i'm o-fish-ally finished.

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the impact of fulton county district attorney's fani willis' passionate defense of her conduct is resonated far beyond an atlanta courtroom. it is a rallying cry for many women, particularly women of color who have been underestimated, man explained and endured the raw exhaustion of having their credibility and competence constantly questioned. >> it's highly offensive when someone lies on you, and it's highly offensive when they try to implication you slept with somebody the first day you met with them and i take exception to it. >> after that you started dating shortly thereafter, correct? >> that's a lie. one of your lies. you think i'm on trial. these people are on trial for trying to steal an election in 2020. i'm not on trial no matter how hard you try to put me on trial. >> d.a. willis is one of a handful of elected black women prosecutors in the country. is she being held to a different

standard? joining me boston globe columnist and msnbc political analyst, kimberly atkins stohr. i know you watched, i watched. there's a separation from -- and you can have this discussion, right, did she make a bad decision? raise questions by having a relationship with nathan wade? but from what you saw and heard on the stand yesterday, is she being held to a different standard? >> i believe she absolutely is, and look, chris, you are right. you can debate the ethics of hiring someone or beginning a relationship with someone after you hired them, particularly in a case as high profile, as important as that. it's important to note that under georgia law and procedures, there's no prohibition about having a relationship in a prosecutor's office. there are people that can be married in a prosecutor's office

under georgia law. in other places that is different. that is why this case is being stretched to somehow claim that there was a financial gain to be made by district attorney willis from this arrangement. the reason we're talking here is because she gave such forceful and credible testimony that that was not the case. she presented herself as a strong black woman who was taught by her father to pay her own way. that is something that resonates with a lot of people, including me. my parents told me, they used different wording, always have your own, and i always have to this day. and that is something that is resonating with people. i highly doubt that this line of questioning, particularly the salacious details about their relationship would have been brought forth had she been of a different gender and race. >> and a key question and the reason this came up obviously kimberly is because they wanted

to know did fani willis benefit from nathan wade's salary, right, as a special prosecutor, and she did say yesterday she always paid him back in cash as her dad had taught her. there was literally a physical reaction by one of the male lawyers on the other side to that, scoffing, i would call it. but let me play for you what her dad said today. >> it's a black thing. okay. you know, i was trained and most black folks, they hide cash or they keep cash, and i was, no, i was trained, you always keep some cash. >> he told i thought a pretty harrowing story about wanting to use his american express card, having it turned down in cambridge, massachusetts, trying to use another credit card, back in the day when you had travelers checks, having it turned down. the lived experience of the

black community in relation to banks and in relation to money in general is very different from the experience of many of the people sitting in that courtroom. was it not? >> that is true, chris. in fact, for a lot of black people particularly in the generations before mine, and before d.a. willis's carrying cash and paying in cash was as a sign of respect. was seen as a sign of prestige within the black community. it is not saying with a check or a credit card, i'm going to pay you or a bank later for what you're giving me. it's saying i have the ability to pay you for this right now, and that is why people in the black community frequently carried and proudly paid with cash. and i believe that mr. floyd is of that generation. there's a lot to be learned from this. i hope, since we're talking about race and the differences there, that the judge and others in georgia can take this as a

lesson to learn about those cultural differences because they do make a difference in this case, rather than the initial shade of this was the fact that district attorney willis said she paid in cash, was looked upon with inherent skepticism as if she were lying. >> i want to play just a little bit more of what we heard from district attorney fani willis on the stand yesterday. >> nobody gives me anything. i am sure that the source of the money is always the work, sweat and tears of me. a man is not a plan. a man is a companion, and so there was tension always in our relationship, which is why i would give him his money back. i don't need anybody to foot my bills. the only man who's ever foot my bills completely is my daddy. >> you just said there's a lot to be learned from what she said yesterday. i'm taking a decision completely out of it that's a legal one, right. i'm just talking about people

who sat and watched what was very compelling testimony. what is it you think was the lesson she wanted folks to learn who were listening? >> well, clearly this was not just an evidentiary hearing, right. as a lawyer i would say in a normal evidentiary hearing that a witness should testify in a way that's dispassionate, only answer the questions she's being asked and try to keep the emotions out of it. this wasn't that. this was put on public display, carried live on networks, including this one, and she was watching it with all of the rest of america. and she very much had a right to stand up and defend her own credibility, not just to the judge but to everyone listening since this was made everyone's business. she has the right to tell everyone her side of this, defend herself, her credibility, her office and by extension, the prosecution of the people who tried to subvert the results of an election in 2020. >> and i thought maybe also just

to stand up and in a way say, look what i've accomplished, i mentioned at the beginning, she's one of just a handful of black female prosecutors who are elected anywhere in the country, and the accusation against her that he was paying your way for her to be able to just say, i can pay my own way is an affirm ation of what many people try to take away. they are successful. they have earned their place in society. >> yes, and it's important, chris, because we see the former president attacking many of the women of color who are seeking to hold him accountable, whether it's letitia james, whether it is judge chutkan, whether it is others. he seems to take particular glee at calling them racists in a clear projection at really

making vitriolic comments against them. so the fact that she was able to stand up and demand the respect that she deserves including being told that she should not be telling the attorney that she is not to be yelled at was an important moment. >> kimberly atkins stohr, thank you, important conversation. appreciate you having it. the fate of jack smith's prosecution against donald trump is resting in the hands of the supreme court. could they answer the biggest question facing the case, is the former president immune from prosecution. prosecution. iness u, i get 5g, truly unlimited data, and unlimited hotspot data. so, no matter what, i'm running this kitchen. (vo) make the switch. it's your business. it's your verizon. you always got your mind on the green. not you. you! your business bank account with quickbooks money now earns 5% apy. (♪♪) that's how you business differently.

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right now at the supreme court, the legal back and forth between former president trump and special counsel jack smith is moving yet another step forward with smith asking the supreme court to further delay -- not to further delay the former president's criminal trial. if the justices sided with trump, that would slow walk the federal election interference case against him while his lawyers appeal for the whole thing to be thrown out. with me now, "politico" legal affairstrump's

arguments regarding why they should take this case, and then decide that they have nothing.

murder, rape, pillage, not have any recourse for that. not have any punishment for that. but nonetheless, you know, that will take some time, and i do agree with lisa that, you know, this ultimately a lot rides on this because if there's a substantial move by the supreme court, if they do take this case, it would not happen until after the election. >> lisa rubin had to run, i thank her as well. meantime, the fbi informant whose claims about a multimillion dollar bribery scheme involving president biden and his son hunter became the basis of a republican-led impeachment inquiry is now facing charges of making the whole thing up. for at least a decade, 43-year-old alexander smirnov worked as a confidential source but the fbi now says he provided false and derogatory information. nbc's tom winter is reporting on this. what more do we know about it? essentially what they're saying

is this is a bald faced lie. >> that's exactly right. fbi agents pride themselves on coming up with a complete time line in the course of investigations. to a potential criminal or somebody committing criminal acts, you have to pay attention to the time line of what you're telling them. when it comes time for a confidential source to testify, the fbi wants to say this person has reliably told the truth over a number of years. when they went back and looked at statements, he's talking about things and meetings, and conversations he says he had in 2015, but he had already previously told them he met with executives for the first time in 2017. it's not possible for him, if you're going to believe his own words and his records, and his travel documents, and it's interesting that the indictment is not particularly specific to the details of how the fbi knows all of this information and how federal prosecutors know all of this information, but they do make it clear that they can, in

their allegations, back up the fact that this person was not where he says he was at the time he says he was, and so all of these very, you know, salacious allegations that somehow the then vice president of the united states personally benefitted because of official actions that he took, the basis of impeachment theory, federal prosecutors say, those words are effectively meaningless. >> is obvious or at least are there obvious suspicions about where this came from? >> so, you know, i think that's going to be a big question going forward. there are some discussions towards the back of the indictment, that reference the fact that this individual says, now, they're pinning it on him, but they say smirnov says he met with russian officials and over the course of his discussions with them, some of these things came up. he talked about a particular hotel that was wired. it is something that has occurred in the past that the russian intelligence services wire hotel rooms for video and audio, and he seemed to suggest that hunter biden, if he stayed

at this particular hotel in kyiv, there could have been potentially damaging information on him from there. well, federal prosecutors say there's no indication that hunter biden ever stayed at this particular hotel. it's curious as to who's feeding him these ideas. we have to be careful that this individual might have been propping up their own value and who they're connected to. on the other hand, maybe he did have these discussions with russian officials and what was that about. we're going to be watching this closely. he's currently held in las vegas where he was arrested, held pending a detention hearing. prosecutors usually use that opportunity to throw a little more detail on the detention memo. we'll be watching this and why they think he might be a risk of flight, and somebody who needs to be held pending this case. >> even when these conspiracies are disproved, they don't necessarily go away. we are going to watch and see what happens. tom winter, thank you so much. >> and that's going to do it for us this hour. make sure to join us for "chris jansing reports" every weekday

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good to be with you. i'm katy tur. the judge engoron decision has just been posted. we are working on downloading it. wait for us as we get the document up. we're going to tell you what his ruling is. is he going to agree with ag