inappropriate communications with a dismissed juror. martinez has denied the -- he critic up his license for the state of arizona and -- readiness attorney said that although he agreed to be disbarred, he was not admitting misconduct. meanwhile, jody areas remains behind bars. after being the center of attention for so long, she is serving her sentence and living her own reality. >> well, that's all for this edition of "dateline. " i'm craig melvin. thank you for watching. " i'm c thank you for watching. thanks to you at home for joining us in the special hour of breaking news. we begin with this. he is tall, lean and blond, with dazzling white teeth, and it looks ever so much like robert redford.

he dates slinky fashion models, belongs to the most eloquent clubs, and it only 30 years of age estimates that he is worth more than 200 million. that is how times described donald trump in 1976. if you asked donald trump then and now, he would say his most valuable asset was his brand, and for decades, the name trump has been synonymous with wealth. trump promoted himself to the world as a business genius. one to be rich? be like trump. >> you walk down the street sometimes and people will touch you just for the good luck. >> i've never figured it out, i've never really understood it, but it's something that has been happening. at first, at a great offense at it, now i almost have to consider it a compliment. i don't know what it is, but perhaps they're going into a deal or they're going down to atlantic city or they're going someplace and they just want to have a little luck. >> the myth of trump has always been riddled with

inconsistencies. in 1987, trump came out with what would become the cornerstone of his business franchise, the art of the deal. years later, trump's ghost writer actually wrote the book told the new yorker that he felt like he had put lipstick on a pig. in reality, trump's businesses have failed over and over again. he bought an airline, it tanked. if out of the ball team, the league folded, and still, donald trump managed to sell the public this idea that he was the monopoly man. >> trump has a new deal. >> trump has a new game, what is it? >> mr. trump -- >> my name is trump the game. >> trump, the game, were you deal on everything you ever wanted to own, because it's not what you win or lose, it's whether you win. play trump again from milton bradley. >> i think you will like. >> trump even lost money on casinos. not in, them on them, as an

owner. and the early 90s, three different trump casinos in atlantic city filed for bankruptcy. you have to be astoundingly bad at business to not make money as that owner, but still, donald trump convince the public that he was the big dummy of success. >> i've mastered the art of the deal, and i turn the name trump into the highest quality brand, and as the master, i want to pass along my knowledge to somebody else. i'm looking for the apprentice. >> everywhere you look, trump is on tv reminding him how rich he was, a profitable is because this is where, how lucky were to be associated with him. >> it's great to be here at saturday night live, but i will be completely honest, it's even better for saturday night live that i'm here. >> trump stuck his name on everything from golf courses and apartments to vodka and

stakes. there was even a trump urine test because why not? if trump was involved, it was good business, even if it was a year in test. that was the story that launched trump's political career, and ultimately the thing that we're in the white house. but again, the math did not always match up with reality. in 2016, trump was forced to pay $25 million to settle a lawsuit claiming that the university he stuck his name on was defrauding students bigly. in 2019, new york dissolve trump's charity and find him $2 million because, as it turned out, trump has been using it as a charity for donald trump. but still, if you ask the man himself, the trump name remained sternly. >> probably my most valuable asset i did include a new statement, and that is the brand. i became president because of the brand, okay? i became president.

i think it's the hottest brand in the world. >> that was trump's video deposition from his civil fraud trial in new york city. the case where today, the myth of donald trump came to an end. today, a new york judge, just death arthur engoron order trump to pay a colossal penalty, which with interest, looks at 400 and $50 million. justice engoron also barred mr. trump from serving in any leadership roles in any new york company, including the one that bears his name, the trump organization for three years. the reason this penalty is so massive is because the fraud was too. as justice engoron put him as rolling today, the frauds found here lead off the page and shock the conscience. new york attorney general letitia james investigated trump's businesses for years, and what she found was that trump had been fraudulently inflating's net worth by

billions of dollars for a decade. i don't mean just in the press and on tv ads for trump urinary tests, but in financial assistance and loan applications. and that means not only was trump tricking the public into thinking he was wildly successful, he was tricking banks and insurance companies to give him loan emirates that he did not qualify for. he cheated. he is a cheat. and making sure that no one sheets, that the world of business plays by the rules, it's central to judge engoron's decision today. this court does not constitute the judge morality. it's constituted to find facts and apply the law. and this particular case, in applying the law to the facts, the court tends to protect the integrity of the financial marketplace and, thus, the public as a whole. that protection includes penalties for past wrongs and

insurance against future ones. so in addition to freezing the trumps out of their family business for three years, the judge is keeping a independent monitor on watch, and he is appointing a independent director of compliance at the trump organization. engoron explain that without all of this, the cheating might never end. defendants refusal to admit error, indeed to continue it, constrains this court to conclude that they will engage and it going forward unless judicially restrained. as donald trump tells it, people used to touch him for luck when he was walking down the street. today, it seems like he might be all out of it. joining me now to discuss today's ruling are my good friends and colleagues, the hardest bookings in america, rachel not out and lawrence o'donnell. guys, thank you so much for being here on this momentous day. i'm honored to have you on this program. rachel we have not heard from lawrence we haven't heard from

you today. rachel, i will let you get the first word here, but what was your reaction to what feels like a day of reckoning for donald trump? >> it is a day of reckoning, almost literally for sure, and that is also one of a number of really important court proceedings that are going to have really important consequences for him, and i feel like once i read as much of the ruling, a lot of a distance, but a lot of it makes sense and once you understand what is ordering, and once you salt letitia james explanation of what happened, we saw trump's reaction to, it i sat back and i realized, my biggest take away from this is that we need to protect the rule of law. that this is a candidate who is promising to basically dismantle the american system of government. he has been raging against the judiciary and judges and juries and lawyers and system that started to hold him to account.

he wants to get back into power peacefully said because he wants to dismantle the whole thing. for all of the institutions that have failed against what donald trump is offering as an anti-democratic small of the democratic, essentially authoritarian candidate, the solution that is been the least, this stood up the best against his assault the judicial branch of government, is the rule of law, and we need to protect it, we need to protect judge engoron. we need to protect clark, we need to protect laetitia james. we need to protect e. jean carroll, we need protection lawyers, we need to protect jurors, we need to protect fani willis, and we talk about, that because that's happening right now. we do projects, mid need to protect judge cannon and judge chutkan, we need to protect people who are manning the barricades on this one branch of government that's doing its job despite what is been a really really i think pointed assault from trump and his supporters that is about to get way more intense.

>> lawrence, rachel makes such an essential point about the branch of government that is holding democracy aloft. i wonder what you thought of the ruling. >> first of all, on your trip down trump memory lane, i thought i had nothing to learn, then came, i learned tonight, about the trump urine test, which i believe, i believe you mentioned them three times? >> trump and urine -- >> i had no idea he was that interested in -- >> urine. i will say, it you don't have to. >> so i just needed to -- >> leave that right there, it says a lot. >> i know there are people in the audience who are still processing, that but i wanted to move on to this. i have spent my entire adult life, professional life in and out of courtrooms following cases very closely, some cases every single day in the courtroom, and there are some cases that are predictable.

and so when you get the verdict, it doesn't feel quite so momentous or something has changed because it was the only logical verdict. this trump verdict today was the most predictable trump village we will ever have, because there was no jury. jury's still contain suspense. no jury, one fact finder, the judge. he made it very clear, because he's a rational human being as a proceeding was going on, that all of this was outrageous, the dow on trump's conduct in the room was outrageous. everything about it was outrageous, and so he returns this verdict that we could have kind of guest the number, within $10 million, because with the number they kept being said, in yet it truly is -- it landed with me as something truly momentous. here is this former president, current presidential candidate on his way to the nomination, and he is now very clearly on his way to what could be

functional bankruptcy for him, because the lawsuits that i think people have left too far into the back of mind might actually be the most expensive things he's facing, which are the lawsuits by police officers in washington d.c. for what happened to them on january six. we saw what the defamation verdict was against rudy giuliani in washington, d.c., over $100 million. donald trump could get hit with a verdict like this against a individual police officer in washington, d.c.. so he could be facing over a billion dollars in these kinds of must pay penalties. >> civil trials. >> which raises this other deep threat to the possibility of another trump presidency, which is, how will you pay these things? the answer is, jared kushner knows a guy, and the guys in saudi arabia, and how many billion do you need? >> yeah, that raises a really

important question, rachel, which is that it's not good for democracy, and vox raises this point today. it's not good for democracy and transparency in rule of law for donald trump to face a really steep bill. not because he should have to face it, but because as lawrence says, this leads you down and negatively the rabbit hole of, which countries went to pay this tab, effectively? >> yeah, i mean, when i was reading that part of judge engoron's ruling today about how one of the restrictions here is that the trump organization cannot get loans from any bank that is registered in new york, well in the normal scheme of things when you cover financial trials and any trials that end up for example and sdny just because of the financial institution involved, the shorthand that you do when covering these things is like, oh yeah, all financial institutions are registered to do business in new york. new york is the financial capital of the world, and so that is why they have jurisdiction over everything financial. but what lawrence says is

exactly right. yeah, it was a mysterious russian bank that funded murray le pen and her pseudo-fascist run at the french presidency, and it is inexplicably saudi arabia that is given two billion dollars to jared kushner for his great service in public life, which he now says he's not going to return to. and the financial penalties here have incredible consequences in terms of the type of entanglements that trump will have absolutely no problem dragging into the white house with him if he is reelected. >> you know, you bring up lawrence the civil fraud trial and the civil cases against trump, and i have to ask, you we will continue this conversation and i would just say preemptively before anybody thinks i'm going to let you guys go, but lawrence, you bring up the civil cases, there's a huge question mark over whether these federal

criminal trials actually see the light of day this year. if the american public only is able to hold donald trump accountable in a civil fashion, a law e. jean carroll, a law letitia james, for the first responders and police officers at january six, is that sufficient, is that enough? >> first of all, i don't think that's going to be the outcome for a couple of reasons. first reason being, i don't think donald trump is going to win the presidency, therefore with that belief i don't particularly care when the trials happened, the federal tiles. everyone is wary about federal trials before election because they're afraid that if you don't get those federal trials done before the election, and donald trump becomes president and he kills them he tells them anyway, because they would be on appeal. if he was convicted, they would be on appeal. i don't think he's going to be president. i think you're gonna see every one of these cases go all the

way to their conclusions and he will bear whatever criminal burden he has to bear as a convicted defendant in those cases. it's worth noting that none of them involve a mandatory minimum sentence. so the highest likelihood, which i know is the satisfactory to a lot of people, but it's a version of hell for trump would be home confinement. imagine spinning the home in florida? that would be unbearable for him. >> and what if the foal floods the server room again, goodness. rachel and lawrence, please do not move from your seats. and we're talking about about the political implications of today's gargantuan really, and the ethical markle implications as well. so please stay tight and we will have more of this coming up next. of this coming up next.

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these are corrupt people. these are people who shouldn't be allowed to do the things they do, and they're using this as weaponization against a political opponent who is up a lot in the polls and always will be. they're doing everything possible to send it away, but we're not going to stand for it. >> today, a new york judge ruled that donald trump's company must pay more than 400 and $50 million, including interest. a huge penalty for us companies years long pattern of fraud. and remember, in addition to that truly staggering amount of money, donald trump still has to pay a small army of lawyers who are deaf and we in four criminal cases, one of which officially goes to trial next month on march 25th right in the middle of presidential primaries season. back with me or my friends and colleagues rachel maddow and lawrence are donald. rachel, i think there was something really important in judge engoron's ruling that

would love to get your thoughts on. it is the notion that he is making this decision not particularly -- obviously he's putting the trump organization in their fraudulent practices, but he's doing it in service of a common good, and i will just read what he wrote. the court is not concentrated to judge morality. it's constituted to find facts and apply the law. in this particular case, in applying the law to the facts, the court intends to protect the integrity of the financial marketplace and thus the public as a whole. that idea, that yeah, it's about new york and wall street but really it's about the public good, i wonder if you think that has residents politically, but that notion, whether or not that is something that resonates with an american public that might in some cases look at this and say wow, that's a lot of money for him to pay for a crime for which there is no apparent victim. >> right, and that's what trump

and indeed his defense council even in responding to the ruling today are banking on. this idea that oh, deutsche bank is fine. deutsche bank is fine. yes, they didn't get paid many, many, many millions of dollars. they would have been paid had this fraud not been perpetrated on them, but they don't mind, and so the fraud is okay. it's a really cynical real politic approach that they're trying to take, both in terms of the public relations effort that they're making around this, but also in the courtroom. i mean judge ingrown today just spell that out in very blunt terms in the ruling, making sure that it's not falling in the courtroom. i think they're hoping that would fly in terms of the way the public perceives this. but she made a really good point at the top of the show. trump university, which wasn't a university, has been shut down as a fraud. trump station was not really functioning as a charity, it's been shut down as a fraud. trump's business has been

criminally convicted of fraud. trump has been found liable personally for sexual assault. trump and his business now have been found liable simply for having perpetrated a multi hundreds of millions of dollars fraud on the people of new york and on the people who all use the same mark it to engage in financial in real estate transactions. and if you can explain one of those way with a real estate specific argument, you know, i guess more power to you. but ultimately, these things do start to seem like a pattern, and trump is not being trusted legally to run his own company business for three years is a bad predicate to take to the american people for, please let me run the free world for four more plus. >> yes, absolutely. the idea that he can run all of these businesses, and therefore how hard was it going to be to run the american government? that has been -- that meant making has been destroyed,

lawrence, but i do wonder, in terms of which are what maga has become at the onset of donald trump's political career, it is very much built on the sort of, the notion that he was a tycoon, and that was the important part of his resume that you need to pay attention to. i do wonder though whether the grievance and the rage of maga has eclipsed the sort of aspirational monopoly man quality that made trump so attractive to republicans. >> if you are a maga republican voter, nothing can shake you from donald trump, and nothing in the courtroom can shake you from donald trump, including by the way his very first promise to them as a candidate. his very first promise was, i am very rich. i don't need anyone's money to run for president. he paused about a week, and then has never spent another

day of his life not asking those people, and we had them on msnbc in iowa with microphone four of those voters and they're saying, yeah, i'm voting for trump because you cannot buy him because he does not need any campaign contributions. the next week, some of those people were sending him campaign contributions. so that is a unshakable bond that is so deeply perverse. we will never unwind it. but trump university was basically civilly prosecuted by the new york attorney general during donald trump's first presidential campaign, and he is promising his voters, i will never settle, i never settle, i'm too tough to settle, and then he settled for $25 million, they watch that, they voted for him. here he is now getting hit with 20 times that, you know, in one day for the same office going after him in court. and so they are unshakable.

the question is, what does it mean at that margin that decides the electoral college and michigan in pennsylvania, arizona, places like that? all you can bet on is that it doesn't help at the margin. >> i do wonder, rachel, how you think this impacts kind of the calculations that are being made right now in terms of donald trump as a likely nominee for the republican party, right? as lawrence outlined in the last segment, this ruling to some degree was expected given that judge engoron found the trump organization liable for fraud at the outside of it. the number is big, but it is the number kind of in that ballpark that had been banded about. i mean, do you think it has a meaningful impact on someone like, nikki haley who seems to largely be in this race hedging against donald trump's criminal or legal exposure and potentially betting that maybe he doesn't make it to november.

>> i mean, i think that nikki haley owes it to the campaign that she has run thus far to stay and no matter what happens, because what's going to happen with trump. i, mean it cost money to manage campaign, but in terms of her reclaiming her place in the party, that ship has sailed. the only reason for you to stay in is if trump gets ruptured effectively. but i think the more important thing here for us as a country is, what's going to happen to the whole republican party, the whole infrastructure, the rnc and everybody who mobilizes to elect it republican president in the election year when donald trump is going to be waging war on the rule of law as part of his campaign? as the central point of this campaign? with $100 million around the e. jean carroll stuff, with $450 million around this stuff, with the four criminal trials still to come, the whole point of his campaign is going to be that the court system and the legal system and judges in court

rulings are terrible, and we have to get rid of those things. is the rnc, are all of the donors, is every republican member of congress going to joan and him and that in trying to destroy the idea of the rule of law in america and the idea that judges rulings are things that we should cover, that we should follow, and that court orders are things that are mandatory that we must follow? because we believe in the rule of law? are the republicans everywhere who have enabled him also going to enable him now when it comes after the next prosecutors and the next judges in the next years in the next witnesses in the next court clerks, in the next freaking bailiff so i'm very well susan vault in the next courtroom drama he's involved in. are republicans going to line up and wage war on that branch of government to? that is the central question for the future of the country regardless of how the election turns out. >> yeah, it is such a great point, because it is going to be a unceasing stretch of

courtroom trials presumably until november. up until this point, lawrence, trump has tried to invoke biden as the enemy behind all of this, but i think rachel rightly points out, biden is not pulling the strings here. this is the american justice system, and you can run a campaign against joe biden, but can you run one against the american justice system? >> the whole trump operation runs on a audience who are incapable of separating fact from fiction. so we can give them any fiction he wants, and they will accept it, and then the elected officials, the republican elected officials live not so much in fear of trump, but they are desperately in fear of those voters who are congregated in their districts who worship donald trump, and that is the trap that they are in, and they are all thoroughly to the bone cowardly about that and i'm willing, with the rear exceptions like liz cheney, who pop out to him anyway stand up

against them. so to the question that rachael just asked, i wish i could come up with a positive answer to it, but i am out of it. i don't see how to do it. >> well, all i can say optimistically is that we will see what happens. lawrence, i hear that you are going to be hosting the ten pm show? >> it's a working night for me. i will go over to the other studio -- >> first nine pm show, and then the ten pm. so >> let's do this all the time. >> listen, any date you want. a standing invitation. >> you know how to reach me. >> please come back, she said. she said with clasped hands. have a wonderful show, lawrence, rachel maddow, thank you for spending part of your friday night with us, we appreciate you. >> thank, you thank you for having me alex. >> when we come back, global outcry after the reported death abrupt russian opposition leader alexei navalny. his longtime friend joins me later this hour. but first, what multiple fines

totaling hundreds of millions of dollars will mean for donald trump's bank account. the go-to expert on trump's finances, suzanne craig of the new york times, joins me right after the break. w york times, t after the break. subway's tuna is off the hook! it's 100 percent wild-caught. this tuna is fishing for a compliment and i'm taking the bait. alright, i'm all punned out. i'm o-fish-ally finished. get it? try subway's tasty tuna today. it's hard to explain what this feels like. ♪♪ moving piles of earth. towing up to 4,000 lbs. cutting millions of blades of grass. nothing compares to experiencing it for yourself. you just have to get in the seat.

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well as far as real estate is concerned, the process i like in the reason i liked it is the creativity. i really would not like the business just to be a buyer and seller. i like the creativity of building something, and i believe that the rest is sort of a means to an end. i enjoy the financial aspects, i enjoyed the finances, i enjoy the complications. but the thing that i really most like is the creative process >> thing i really like most is the creative process. as it turns out, don trump was so creative with the evaluation of his assets there is now an hook for over 300 and $50 million. that is on top of the nearly $90 million that he already owes e. jean carroll for

defamation, and sexual abuse. altogether, these three decisions will cause trump over $440 million not including interest. if you add the interest from his civil fraud case, he's in for more than 500 and $40 million. which leads to one big question here. how is donald trump going to pay for all of this? new york times investigative reporter, susanne craig, joins me now. susanne, my mind went immediately to you, predicting on this television program that you thought that the punishment here was going to be, did you say 300? the high 300 millions? >> let's go with that. but i think i did. >> you knew this was going to be a big price tag. but it does beg the question, is he even solvent? does he have this cash? >> does he have the cash is a great question. >> that is the question, because he is solvent to the tune of that, but does he have? that >> it will just push him into

bankruptcy. and cash situations are always really tricky. i cover public corporations for a long time. sometimes when they are in trouble they will say that they have 500 million, a billion, whatever it is. then the next day they will make a withdrawal. it is just a snapshot in time, so we can see from the documents that were filed with the attorney general that there is a lot of paper that went in, a lot of banking information, that he was headed into a difficult cash situation as he was entering the white house, and the reason for that is that he lost a ton of these licensing deals. these one time cash hits that he was getting that we are keeping him going and he lost them because he made a very derogatory remarks about mexicans and a lot of his partners didn't like that, and the left. since then, he had some asset sales. a hotel he used to own in d. c.

, he has had other money that has come in and he has also been quietly selling some condos and land around the golf course he owned in l. a. some things that have not gotten as much headlines that have broad cash in. at the same time, he's got huge financial pressures on him. today is obviously the biggest one but we are also writing about an irs audit that has been going on that is happening behind closed doors that we don't have any insight into it. if it goes against him mid couldn't cost him more than $100 million but who knows what else could be out there there are things that you just never know. so can he need this? i don't think he has enough cash if he is going to appeal to put it up. we will find out. but we could get an appeal bond. this is devastating. this is a real number and it is on. >> what doesn't mean

practically that they've appointed a babysitter financially speaking, the former judge, barbara jones, is going to keep overseeing what is happening at the trump organization and she, in turn, it is going to point an independent director of compliance. what does not mean from a practical standpoint in terms of the trump organization's ability to do business as fast and furiously as it might want to in a moment like this? >> those days are in the rearview mirror. keep in mind that this is a company. i sat through the trial, the trump organization was found guilty and they were paying people, all of these perks with cars, apartments, they were not paying payroll tax on them. this was a fast and loose operation on that sort of stuff and on the stuff we are seeing today about the documents that they were submitting in banks and the lies that were embedded in them. >> i was stunned reading through some of this filing. how much of an amateur sounding operation it was.

not just in the valuations, which were extraordinarily overblown. like to weigh almost comic level, but the keeping of spreadsheets and data was in a file called jeff's supporting data that someone named jeff -- >> it was in quotations. >> titled jeff's supporting data. even when jeff wasn't working on it and patrick was, and patrick was still called jeff's supporting data it is like something out of beavis and butt-head, almost. and the sense of impunity was staggering. >> and those days are behind them. they not only have a monitor over them who is reporting into the court, and there's been a lot of tension and problems with how it is being run but now they will have this extra level as we go forward. i expect an appeal that the trump will ask for a state of some sort, of donald still being involved in the business. but i don't know if that will happen. but this is where we are at,

they have got serious supervision, and one of the reasons that there is supervision is because at the end of the day there may have to be a major asset sale. he owns the commercial business, trump tower, just to give one example. and that may have to be liquidated. it isn't all of our interest as a business is running well for the taxpayers of new york, and so it will have to be sold. so they want to make sure that there is adults in the room running these businesses now. >> so, trump tower, i have seen pictures of it, mocked up to look like a spirit halloween superstore, that is not necessarily going to happen but it may not be trump tower as we have known it in the future. susanne craig, i know that you are just -- we are going to keep you in heavy rotation over the course of the next few days and weeks. thank you, my friend. for the great essential reporting on all of this. when we come back, the strongmen warship of the modern day republican party. that is next. is next. i suffer with psoriatic arthritis and psoriasis. i was on a journey

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anti-corruption activist and chief rival of vladimir putin has died in a russian jail. that is according to russia's president service. president biden quickly condemned navalny's reported death and said president putin is responsible for it. but there have been no words of condemnation from that effect out leader of the republican party. there have actually been no warts at all. donald trump has said nothing about navalny or putin, except for his forwards late last week when he told russia that it should feel free to go ahead and attack americas nato allies, or in his words do whatever the hell they want. and now putin apology is spritzing through the gop like a cancer. a week ago, right when personality tucker carlson sat down for a two hour interview with putin which agent putin himself says was full of a softball questions. carlson has since gone viral

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everyone asking me this question, are you afraid, are you going to come back to russia, and my job is to not be afraid and go back to russia. >> that was russian opposition leader alexei navalny in 2020, vowing to return to moscow just a few months after he was poisoned by a soviet era nerve agent for which he directly blamed vladimir putin. at that point, navalny was already well known in russia as putin's most prominent critic as a crusader against government corruption. in 2021, navalny returned to russia knowing he would be arrested on politically

motivated charges. he was detained at the airport and had been under arrest since that day, imprisoned largely in solitary confinement in a penal colony above the arctic circle. navalny was last seen alive yesterday during a court appearance where he seemed to be in good spirits, even cracking jokes with the judge. russian authorities claim that navalny died after collapsing and losing consciousness. joining me now is former u.s. ambassador to russia, michael mcfaul. ambassador mcfaul, thank you for being here with us, i know that you are friends with mr. navalny, and as wrenching as this has been for me, and i think everybody else who knew of him, i can't imagine what this has been like for someone who actually knew him and was friends with him. how are you grappling with this? >> it is shocking. i have to tell you honestly, i never thought putin would kill navalny.

i just was with his wife last night. i'm here in munich, we were talking about his health, talking about the video he showed. he was living under horrendous circumstances. much worse that i even had understood until talking to yulia, who you are showing there right now. there was nobody -- i was talking with his team, nobody thought he was on his deathbed. and i just never thought they would kill him. because i thought he was too strong. he was strong physically, strong mentally, strong emotionally. obviously i was wrong about that and it's a really horrible day for me, for the navalny family, not for everybody who believes and freedom in this world. >> i do wonder if you think, you know, the kremlin understood the political, the global outrage that would follow something like this and the inevitable response that will, presumably, happen in the coming months and days? >> first, let's be crystal clear about something that's

getting a little bit, not between us, but in general about the reporting on this, putin killed navalny. we'll learn, maybe, maybe not, depending, because it is putin's russia, what exactly happened in the autopsy. but let's be crystal clear about that. it wasn't somebody's accident, he put him in jail, he tried to poison him before he was in jail. putin killed navalny. now the test will be, will the west respond, as you just said? presumably they will. i was very impressed with what president biden said today. but the proof will be, will we take real actions to try to punish putin? and there is some very concrete things we can do today. the house of representatives can come off of their vacation and go back in session and pass that aid to ukraine. what better way to respond to putin than temperatures the

killing that putin is doing in ukraine. i know that's what alexei navalny would want. and, two, we have seized russian assets. we have seized putin's money. billions of dollars here in germany, where i am today, europe, and in the united states, there is already legislative passed by the right member sponsored legislation passed. so let's sign that into law. let's get our european allies to do the same. and let's transfer that 360 billion dollars that putin parked in our banks to ukraine. i know, also, that would be a response that alexei navalny would welcome. >> the timing on this, if putin does not want -- if he wants to prevent the securing of funding for ukraine, this is not what you do. kill alexei navalny. because the outrage, even in the united states is palpable. although i have to ask your opinion on the fact that trump said nothing. and as trump goes, so often does the republican party. >> you know, the last piece i wrote about alexei navalny for the washington post was four

years ago, when mr. trump was president. it was the first time a used the phrase putin is able. i remember, i was berated about that, for being crazy. i stand by that claim. but i also asked, why hasn't mr. trump spoke out back then? he was president. and i am shocked that he has not -- i applaud his vice president, former vice president pence did. many other republicans have. i am shocked that a leading nominee, the presumed nominee of one of the major parties of the greatest democracy in the world is silent on a day like today. i hope mr. trump will reconsider that silence. >> one more for you. do you think we'll ever find out the truth of how he died? >> no. no. because it is putin's russia. tragically, i've had other friends that have been killed by this regime. i think -- of boris -- in 2015, and for years and years and years, there was an alleged investigation into that. i suspect the same will be

here. but i want to say it again. it doesn't matter exactly how he was killed. putin arrested him. he tried to kill him before he arrested him. he put him in horrific gulag- like circumstances. listening to it from yulia last night, just the way that the incredibly awful, statistic circumstances under which he endured to live, that's what putin did. so what the last straw was, i don't know, but i know for sure putin killed those courageous man. >> michael mcfaul, our condolences to you and andy to everybody who cares about democracy. this is a tragedy. that is our show for tonight. good morning, it is at february the 17th, i'm ali velshi. we begin this morning with landmark ruling in donald trump's civil fraud trial in new york that is set to have potentially huge impacts on his livelihood and to further

bruise his already fragile ego. the former president has been ordered to pay 453 point $5 million for his company's deceptive financial practices and for conspiring to manipulate the true value of his assets for years. that judge includes nearly $355 million in penalties plus 98 point $6 million in interest. a monumental sum that the new york times could, quote, wipe out trump's entire stockpile of cash, end quote. in addition, trump is barred from personally winning a company in new york for three years and cannot apply for a loan from any banks in the state for the same amount of time. this is a tremendous setback for trump. both reputationally and financially. he built his national profile and political power upon his reputation as a successful self made new york businessman, but that reputation had long been

in doubt. before trump was handed the keys to the white house, he spent a period of time jumping from one failed business venture to another, into another, into another. he racked up plenty of debt along the way, and some of his various businesses had filed for bankruptcy during his career. this case has confirmed the suspicions that people have long held about the trump's business and financial practices. the outcome of the case was determined some months ago when this man, the judge, arthur engoron who presided over the case issued a summary judgment in september of last year. he concluded that trump and his company have committed fraud for years, often wildly inflating the value of trump's assets by exorbitant amounts in order to obtain more favorable loans. to punctuate his point, engoron later remarked that there was quote, enough evidence in this case to fill this courtroom. yesterday's development was about how much trump would have to pay for perpetuating fraud.

severe penalties were also handed down to the other plaintiffs in the case. trump's two eldest sons, don junior and eric, both of whom are executives in the family business, were ordered to pay $4 million each. meanwhile, two former trump executives, allen weisselberg and jeffrey mcconney have been banned for life for serving in a financial management role for any company in new york. weisselberg was also fined $1 million, and like trump, all four have been barred from personally running a company in new york for a period of time. this is a major victory for new york's attorney general, letitia james, who began the investigation several years ago. in remarks last night, she once again called out the former president and his company for its fraudulent practices. >> for years, donald trump engaged in deceptive business practices and tremendous fraud. donald trump falsely, knowingly inflated his net worth by billions of dollars to unjustly

enrich himself, his family, and to cheat the system. donald trump may have offered the art of the deal, but he perfected the art of the steel. this long running fraud was intentional, egregious, illegal. >> the jaw-dropping judgment in this case is a major blow to trump's businesses, but it is not the death nail that some thought was possible. judge engoron stopped short of canceling the trump organization's business licenses. the decision to bar don junior and eric from running the company in new york for a couple of years leaves open the possibility that someone not named trump will be the head of the company. meanwhile, his latest for hundred and 50 million dollar judgment against the former president means that in just the span of a few weeks, donald trump has already accrued more than half a billion dollars in legal penalties. late last month, the judge ordered the former president to pay more than $83 million to

the writer e. jean carroll in her second sexual assault and defamation case against him. a different jury in a separate trial last year also awarded her a additional $5 million. and yet this is really only the beginning of trump's legal troubles. in less than a month, the first of his criminal trials will begin, which could result in more fines or other forms of punishment. joining me now is catherine christian, a former district attorney in manhattan and an msnbc legal analyst, and amy lee copeland, who is a former federal prosecutor in a former appellate chief at that u.s. attorney's office in the southern district of georgia. good morning to both of, you thank you for being with us. catherine, let's lay out the donald trump timeline. over the next 30 days, what does he have to do? what does securing the money look like for this fine, what happens if he has trouble coming up the money, and how can he raise it? >> well he has assets, we don't fierce liquid assets, but he has a lot of properties other than the ones that will be

under the monitor ship that this court ordered and it will be a independent monitor. so he will come with a bond for this if the has two for the $83 million in the $5 million that he owes e. jean carroll, assuming that that case is not reversed on appeal, the same here. so he will find a way to come up with that, but this is a devastating blow. this is a family business that will now be under independent monitor and an independent director of compliance. most businesses if they're successful, half compliance directors. this one did not. now it will. so it will be appealed. i think the way the judge wrote this decision is very thorough, detailed, went through all of the witnesses, explained why he did not credit the experts, means that it probably will not be reversed. it is a long appellate process in new york. it will be five months to one year before it gets to the appellate division, and then he

can appeal again if he loses there to the court of appeals. so this could take about two years before we actually have the final decision. >> amy lee copeland, donald trump's view of the thing is diametrically opposed to what catherine christian just said. he thinks the whole thing was rigged, the judge was against him, the attorney general, the office specifically to prosecute him. if this had happened anywhere other than new york, it would not have happened. what is your take on the way that donald trump is playing this judgment against him? >> good morning, ali, i think the most telling line of the night is the three-page opinion issued by the judge is that his lack of -- borders on the pathological. i think that is a pretty accurate statement given what we've seen in the trial and the amount of evidence against him. if he doesn't muster up this to get an appeal bond, my understanding, and my colleagues can correct me, is

that -- start executing on his assets. they start collecting the judgment right now. so he's really incentivized to do that, but again, we want issues of the overinflation of properties, which appears to be a corner problem, as the judgment talked about. >> catherine, let me ask you about, donald trump started fundraising last night. he fund-raise of everything. he's a cloudy day, somehow figure out a way to blame democrats and fund-raise. can he fund-raise to pay the penalty, or does he have to -- i know he's been fundraising for his legal fees for a long time. >> i don't believe so, because the attorney general, the court, and independent monitor a going to be the ones to decide how this business would be run, and how this money, $355 million where the -- million dollars in interest have to be paid back. i can't see them saying, oh, it's okay that this p.a.c. is paying for it, but we will see. that is undecided.

>> when the summary judgment came up and december, i remember talking to david jolly, the former republican congressman, who made the point that while the other cases involve donald trump's actual liberty, he could go to jail for them, this one may matter more because it is so central to his mid-, the myth that he used to convince so many people in america support him and supported him in the election that he is this super successful self-made guy. this punctures that mitt in that at least some of his success as to be attributed to illegal business practices and or fraud. >> it is. it seems to hit him right where he lives, which is in the wallet, ali. you've seen through the years a kind of careful, cultivated image of him with success between the art of the deal, the commercials he was and showcasing his wealth, and his role even in home alone and another movies. so it is not just something that he has started now. it is a image that he has embraced for the last 40 years.

you kind of embraces himself as a self made man. i understand that he started with $1 million from his father and a construction company, and so i can't imagine from what i've read about him the blow that this would be to him. again, he is a man who's lack of remorse and lack of contrition borders and pathological according to the judge, and we keep seeing this again and again. i think it also has to hurt him to that both of his sons got tagged with a 4 million dollar judgment in this case, and they're barred from running the organization for a period of a couple of years. >> catherine, let me ask you about what else can happen. you describe the appeal process, five months to a year, and that there might be a further appeal to this, but it was reported in 2022 that laetitia james may also have referred elements in this case to both federal authorities in the irs separately. i don't know if you know anything about

that, but what is the potential culpability beyond this trial? is there something beyond this for donald trump? >> it is now the federal government, the southern district of new york's sort of past on this publicly, but that does not mean that -- within the statute of limitations take another look, and clearly, the federal government, the internal revenue service, they sort of never stop looking at you, and so yes, the ap's office referred to other authorities, and it could be possible that each of the opinions, not just donald trump, but it sounds, what weissenberg could be in jeopardy, even criminal jeopardy. >> thanks to both of you, hang on a second, i wanted to do a conversation after a quick break. catherine christian and amy lee copeland, we will be right back. y lee copeland, we will be right back. there's nothing better than a subway series footlong. except when you add on an all new footlong sidekick. we're talking a $2 footlong churro. $3 footlong pretzel and a five dollar footlong cookie. every epic footlong deserves the perfect sidekick. order one with your favorite subway series sub today.

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our conversation. joining me, again catherine christian, a former assistant district attorney in manhattan and an msnbc legal analyst, and amy copeland, former federal prosecutor in former appellate chief at the u.s. attorney's office in the southern district of georgia. amy, and it's based on a lot of the reporting used by the great epic colleagues at the new york times and about the over valuing of properties in order to secure loans, and there's nothing that goes on as they overvalued properties for loans, they undervalue them for tax purposes, and they use them for the insurance purposes, and i want to give our viewers the sense of some of the scope of the overvaluation. this was not small mistake if you are getting home mortgage. his seven springs paucity, the appraised value was $30 million, trump's value was 261 to $291 million. 40 wall street was praised a 500 and $40 million, trump's value much closer on this one,

735 point $4 million. mar-a-lago has an appraised value of 18 to 27 point $6 million, and trump thinks that that is formed and 26 to 600 and $12 million. and so craig made the point last night that the trump team argued that everybody does this, and there might be some truth of that. that does not make it legal, and that is not a defense. t ma, and that is not a defense. -- that was part of the attorney general statements i understand last night. everyone has to be accountable for what they do, even former presidents, and that was one of the points of this particular lawsuit. >> catherine, let me ask you about the, money the 354 point $9 million and penalties, 98.6

million interest. when you add the 83.3 million for e. jean carroll and the other $5 million, you are now above half 1 million -- billion dollars, and fundamentally the question that donald trump and his ways is what can get him to stop. the whole point of fines and judgments is to penalize in some cases, but also to deter behavior. donald trump's post and last 18 hours or so suggest that he is not deferred. >> the whole point, this purpose of this decision the court said was to protect the financial marketplace, to protect the public as a whole, and the reason why he installed the judge and his director of compliance and independent monitor is because he does not trust that the trump organization will stop, and this is really not a fine, and it's basically telling the wrongdoer, you got an ill

gotten gains and you have to pay them back and so yes to pay back his sons owen weisselberg and now, we see that during his cases. he, as a judge, has refused to admit error. and the few refused to acknowledge that they did anything wrong. and that's why this family business has a family monitor, he's incorrigible. his criminal cases, they may make them stop, because it is a whole different world. yes, it starts, and because he is one of the most wealthiest people alive in this court says we're actually a fraud you're companies are fraud and i stopped counting how many times this decision use the word fraud and fraudulent but on trump's incorrigible.

prosecutor and judge that he doesn't like is against him with the exception of the judge whom he appointed. does that carry weight on any appeal process? >> they butted heads throughout this proceeding. i know he was fixated on the law. what you have now is a well overwhelming amount of evidence and a ngdifficult road ahead if you try to show him impartiality. partiality of the judge. the judge engoron may have been fiery at times, again, the former president and his team re may have butted heads with them. at the end of the day the judge how to control order in his courtroom. he did a careful sifting of the evidence to determine the amount of depenalties and fines and for -- the remedies appear to be proper. if a business has been

fraudulently run, to have run by monitor seems like a very feasible solution. he didn't impose the death penalty t on the trump organization, he just severely restricted how it could run a going forward. >> sithank you to both of you f your analysis. catherine christian is a former to suit district attorney and an msnbc legal analyst. amy lee copeland is a former prosecutor and chief at the u.s. attorney's office in the southern district of georgia. quote, michael cohen told the truth, perhaps a statement of vindication from judge engoron to trump's atpersonal attorney rudy who spent time in jail for deeds committed at the behest of donald trump. new reaction from michael cohen, nea key witness in this trial, at 10 am eastern. first, the myth of donald trump expose, what the ruling means for the image that donald trump spent decades crafting for himself. i'm joined by the defendant of trump biographer, tim o'brien, after a quick break.

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donald trump wasn't too pleased went judge arthur engoron's decision came down yesterday afternoon. in a post on his social media platform, truth social, trump wrote, quote, the justice system in new york state and america as a whole is under assault bipartisan diluted, biased judges and prosecutors. racist, corrupt a.g., it tish james has been obsessed with getting trump four years. used cricket new york state judge, engoron to get an illegal un-american judgment against me. partisan, diluted, biased, racist, obsessed, crooked, and un-american, wow. what is it about judge engoron and the new york attorney general, letitia james, that gets trump so worked up? probably that this case, compared to the rest of them, chipped away at the opulent wealthy larger than life trump myth that -- it gives a world a

glimpse at who trump truly is as a businessman. someone who lies! someone who treats! someone who inflates the assets about which he endlessly breaks. this ruling, and the financial penalties that accompany it, legally cement what trump's biggest detractors have been calling him for years. a fraud. joining me now, someone who's literally written the book on donald trump. tim o'brien. the senior executive editor of bloomberg opinion and msnbc political analyst and author of the book, trump nation, the art of being the donald. a book that has aged quite well, my old friend. tim, let's talk about this. the stuff that happened yesterday notwithstanding, we knew there was going to be a fight, we just know how big it was going to be. or this gorge meant, as catherine christian points out. but we know that trump was culpable. we knew on that day in september that the armor had been pierced.

the myth that donald trump perpetuates had somehow been shattered. i don't know if that matters to trump supporters. it may actually have the opposite effect on them. but give me your impression on this, as someone who, as we say, has literally written the book on donald trump. >> well, on the note of whether or not it affects his supporters, ali, i think it won't. i think we've learned that the trump era, you know, his myth making, his lies, his conduct, they are all fairly insulated from anything that might turn his supporters away from him. they're not the ones that matter the most in this election. i think it will be independent voters in swing states, moderate voters in swing states, who i think are disturbed by this. there's a lot of recent polling, and i'm not someone who always takes phase value polls, that have indicated that as these trials progress -- and if trump is found guilty in the, it is going to have a serious impact on whether or not they feel they can support him in the election.

i think he has to be aware of that. i think he's so aware of it, in fact, that when he gets slapped with a judgment in which he is personally on the hook for at least $355 million and his business is on the hook for that much, and he's getting booted out of new york for three years, his default is to appeal to his supporters. his default is to appeal to the court of opinion, rather than the court of law, because he has been roundly decimated thus far in the court of law repeatedly for a lot of money. >> i want to ask you about a thing i -- you wrote on february 16th and bloomberg opinion. scrambling to find the money to pay his fines and lawyers, it's embarrassing and stressful. i don't think it's the only part of friday's ruling that will not let him. what will really tug is that, as a businessman, he is homeless in a town he once coveted. because new york doesn't like having trump around, at least for now. >> tell me more about, this is there some rehabilitation for donald trump ahead? or is this low point? >> probably not with new

yorkers. donald trump is roundly loathed in new york for the most part. i think in many ways because he spent decades in a very heightened way, the last few years, dumping on the city. it is a city that, in every sense, made him. it's where he got his first media attention, it's where he built some of his first buildings, most importantly is where his family built the foundation of his and their wealth. donald trump has regularly, over the years, described himself as a self made billionaire. he only got a few million dollars here and there from his father. that's all garbage. fred trump wasn't authentically made multi millionaire who used both his wealth and his business connections to provide an incredible launchpad for donald into manhattan really state. trump thinks a lot about his legacy. he talks about the trump family. he likes to compare himself to the kennedys, the rockefellers,

et cetera et cetera. he is none of those things. their family is certainly not the rockefellers or the kennedys. me -- as we all know, he's deeply aware of how is he perceived. now you have public documents and public judgments that say, you spent years inflating your wealth by more than three billion dollars annually. and inflating the value of your properties by hundreds of millions of dollars in order to, one, present yourself as more successful than you actually were, and then two, in an attempt to perform -- defraud banks. and we caught you. >> tim, from the same article i want to read to you about the money that trump owes and how he comes about it. a collection of penalties totaling 443 point $5 million will blow holes in trump's wallet, regardless of how he pays them. most of his wealth is tied up in a handful of fill it with urban properties and golf

courses. he may be sitting on several hundred million dollars in cash and other liquid assets, but with trump, one can ever be sure. he has 30 days to fork over the funds or post a bond in the new york ruling. the clock is ticking. in your best sense of where the money come from us and what effect it will have on him to get to raise or hand over that kind of money? >> trump runs a privately owned company. so most estimates of his wealth depend to a meaningful extent on statements that he's making publicly, including some of the statements he filed. financial documents he filed well president. my colleagues at bloomberg news estimate that he may have 600 billion dollars or so and look what assets he could tap into. obviously the sum of money is going to take right into that. but, again, those cash reserves are based on public statements. as one longtime new yorker said about donald trump, i wouldn't believe him of his time was notarized. so it's going to be very hard,

you know, to believe that that figure is accurate. but even if it is, it is going to strain him, which then means he's going to have to sell some things. if he sells urban skyscrapers in post covid cities where the occupancy rates are low, tenants have been fleeing, the values have been degraded because of it, it is going to be something of a fire sale. other developers are going to know he needs to sell. it he won't get top price. he's also always loathed to part with his toys. i think that's also going to be stressful. i don't have -- see him having any and around. i don't think his appeal will be successful. i could be proven wrong, but tish james, the new york state attorney general came at him under statutes, they give the attorney general a lot of prosecutorial deference. the court system in new york has always respected that. and, again, as you noted, in the tweet you showed at the top of our segment, he can't help

himself but continue to go after the rule of law and try to degrade americans in a system of laws. the judges don't take kindly to that, prosecutors don't take kindly to that. it hurt him in court and the e. jean carroll case when he went after the judge, it hurt him in this court when he went hefter -- and he continues to do it to his own detriment. >> tim, thank you, my friend. as always, for your in-depth analysis. tim o'brien is a senior executive editor at bloomberg opinion. an msnbc political analyst and the author of trump nation, the art of being the donald. coming, up the explosive claims of an fbi informant with a centerpiece of house republicans impeachment efforts against president biden. now, that informant is under federal indictment. the justice department says those claims were all lies. don't expect republicans to change course. we have the latest next on velshi.

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republicans have been trying to impeach president joe biden are in damage control mode this morning after a key confidential informant was federally indicted this week for lying to investigators about biden and his son, hunter. 43 year old fbi informant, alexander speier, knopf is charged with making a false statement to a governor agent and falsifying records in a federal investigation. republicans have been touting those very same false

statements as there's under peace, the centerpiece of their impeachment inquiry into president biden. nbc news chief white house correspondent, peter alexander, joint and asked the president about this new development yesterday. >> should the inquiry be dropped? >> he is lying, it should be dropped, and it's been an outrageous thing from the beginning. >> smirnoff is being held in a las vegas detention center as he awaits a federal hearing on tuesday. peter alexander has the story. >> president biden's case -- david weiss charged a former fbi informant with lying about financial ties between president biden, his son hunter, and ukrainian energy company, burisma. top democrats calling on the gop to abandon the impeachment inquiry. >> even donald trump's handpicked special counsel, mr. weiss, has now brought charges

against this confidential human informant who turns out, presumably, allegedly, to be engaged in fraud from the beginning. >> the burisma allegations are the focus of house republicans push for impeachment. according to the justice department, alexander smirnov was arrested in las vegas after returning from a trip overseas. a 37-page indictment alleges that smirnov had been a confidential source for the fbi since 2010. he provided false derogatory information to the fbi about both bidens after joe biden became a candidate for president in 2020. the doj says the source falsely claimed officials at burisma said they hired hunter because his father would protect them. and that the bidens were paid $5 million each. following smirnov's indictment, the house gop said its inquiry does not recall lie on the informants claims. even though top republicans up amplified his false allegations for months. >> a highly credible fbi source

alleges that joe biden received $5 million in exchange for pressuring for the firing of the ukrainian prosecutor. >> a source familiar with the matter tells nbc news that hunter biden does not know the individual who was charged, and does not believe he ever met him. in december, hunter biden acknowledged past financial struggles, but cold house republicans quest to impeach his father baseless. >> there is no evidence to support the allegations that my father was financially involved in my business, because it did not happen. >> they extend bases peter alexander for that report. don't go anywhere, after the, break i will be joined by the deputy district attorney in fulton county, georgia, melissa redmond and civil rights attorney, charles coleman.

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before the break i told you about the charges against a former fbi informant accused of lying about the president, joe biden, and his son, hunter biden's business dealings.

for more on this i'm joined by melissa redmond, msnbc legal analyst and former deputy district attorney in fulton county, georgia. charles coleman junior, former prosecutor in new york and msnbc legal analyst also co- host of the new msnbc documentary, black men in america, the road to 2024, which is streaming on peacock right now. of course many of you know him as the person who sits in for me, which allows be from time to time to get out of here. thanks to both of you for being here this morning. charles coleman, let's start with this, this fbi informant, this conversation about joe biden and hunter biden in their business dealings has become so muddled over the years. it is not clear to people that much of it was dependent upon the testimony of this particular witness. in fact, much of the cage around them was built around the case around this guy, who turns out was lying. >> absolutely correct. it's important for viewers to understand that already, when you're talking about house republicans and their efforts to try to impeach the

president, they were basing it around speculation. the speculation was loosely connected and when i say loosely i want to stress that because they really did not have anything else other than what they believed as the information from this confidential informant. now that the informant is falling apart, the issue with regard to the president absolutely should go away because you're talking about somebody who is completely not credible, so much so that they have been actually arrested for providing false information to a government agency. now, with respect to hunter biden, he still has the tax issues that he has dealt with. those are things that are valid that are not necessarily depended on this fbi informant. but regarding the foreign ties and the money that is being transferred and any link between the president, joe biden, and his son, hunter biden, -- financial gain is now completely eviscerated and erased because of the lack of credibility of this witness. that conversation should be simply put to bed.

>> so charles makes a couple of interesting points, one is that there are separate charges or things having to do with hunter biden that will not go away, although they sort of stemmed from the initial investigation in many cases. charles said something very quaint, and that is that the rest of it should go away as a result. formally, things will go away. but in this highly politicized congress, nothing ever seems to go away. >> nothing at all. and i'm surprised actually, as a trial attorney, is that it would have gone this far. everyone knows, and there are a lot of attorneys in congress and -- criminal attorneys. but you can't base any prosecution or investigation entirely on the formation of a confidential informant. all the information is supposed to be co-operative, so that if there is an issue with the confidential informant you can go to the court and say, i have this information independent. or the information i got from the informant is just a tip that started this investigation that led to this admissible evidence. the fact that all of this was

based on somebody who turns out to be set untruthful is, to me, that is incredible that it's gotten this far based on the information that was not probably bedded. >> i guess the question, charles, is we sort of hope in our system -- you and i have studied other systems around the world, this kinds of stuff gets very far, politicized information. we hope that in our system, to melissa's point, that it never gets this far. what is the best explanation as to why it did? is it the normal course of a bench that something would get this far before determining that a key informant or witness was lying? >> no, it's not. and i think to melissa's point, you're talking about very politicized investigations where people, even without the dots being able to connect, after getting one dot or one perception of a telling folks, keep digging, keep going, hoping that something was going to turn up. that is not the normal course of dealing. that is not the way things

should go. to your question, ali, this occurs when you are in a hypersensitive, hyper politicized, hyperpolarized political environment. we cannot ignore the political implications of an investigation and a prosecution like this. or an attempt to make that work. so the reality is somewhere, someone who is pushing the button saying, you need to keep going, you need to, look you need to dig, you need to try to find something. basing it all entirely on this falsehood that was being pushed to them by this confidential informant. quite frankly, i will take melissa's point a little further, this is not just enforcement, it is not just unbelievable, it is actually embarrassing if you get to this place in an investigation and you realize, wait a minute, you don't have anything else. it should not have gotten this far. >> i want to have you both sick around. if you are paying attention to the donald trump stuff this week, you may have missed what was going on in georgia. and that was something. melissa redmond and charles coleman junior, stay with me, we will continue this after the

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back with, meet melissa redmond, former discotheque attorney in fulton county georgia. civil rights attorney, charles coleman junior, both of them msnbc legal analysts. welcome back. melissa, let's talk about fulton county. fani willis brought to the court by someone who is one of

the indicted coconspirators in the senate charges, the racketeering charges of accused of having a relationship with somebody with whom she was working. then, that was some fiery stuff on the stand. not typically what you see from a witness. fani willis was there and was really really pushing back on those who had brought her to court. tell me what you saw happen this week. >> i saw what i have seen in the past directed at criminal defendants on trial, which is where you don't want to be on the other side of fani willis on any situation. i saw her defending her integrity and defending her decision making. the fact that she had been accused of prosecutors -- based on private as opposed to public interest. to a prosecutor, having integrity questioned, is highly offensive. and i'm sure her team said that the defense will not be able to meet the burden of -- in this

case. there's no need for you to testify. and madam d.a., she took the position of, if they want to put these lies about me in public. i want to have the opportunity to address them and tell the public the truth. so absolutely she did not need to testify in this hearing based on the testimony we saw before her from the other witnesses, there was no conflict in the evidence about whether or not there was a financial benefit to her such that it rose to a personal interest in the prosecution of this case. but, we have even more details further dismantling the defenses argument that this case is being prosecuted because of this relationship, or that she benefited from this relationship. i think there's a lot that we don't know yet. there is evidence that the court is going to allow -- if it comes, in i suspect the defense will still argue that the attorneys are not being truthful about the timeline of the relationship. so therefore the court should not take their word about whether or not yell the

expenses were split evenly. creating the interest that they claim rise to the level of disqualification. but other georgia law, even if all the allegations stated are true, it would not meet the standards for disqualification. so i will just wait to see what we see next week, wait to see what we hear next week as far as additional evidence and arguments of the attorneys. >> they said they're not calling her back. but take a look at -- as we were looking at her body language there, charles, you could tell what she thought of the whole proceeding. and the main point to fani willis to the lawyers questioning, her this entire thing is about something else. this entire thing is about donald trump and his indicted coconspirators in a racketeering case. here are her words when she was trying to make that point to the lawyer. >> your office objected to us getting delta records for flights that you may have taken. >> well look, i object to

getting records. you've been intrusive into my personal life, you are confused, do you think i'm on trial. these people are on trial to trying to steal election in 2020. i'm not on trial in the matter how hard you put me on trial. >> what do you think about that, charles? she was forceful which is that these people are on trial. she was pointing at the fact that it was michael rohan, one of the indicted coconspirators who had brought this thing before the court. >> i'm going to try to sum this up as distinctly as i can. what we are talking about is a defensive maneuver to try to hit the ball out of the park and hit home run that would disqualify fani willis and miss willis's office from prosecuting this case. the defense is not wrong for trying to bring in this motion, provided that there is some degree of good faith upon which they're bringing it. as melissa already talked about, there are two ways that you can disqualify a prosecutor in the state of georgia. one of them is forensic

misconduct, it's not alleged, we do not have it here. the other one is an actual conflict. and i think what everyone has been waiting for, including miss willis, is where is the evidence of an actual conflict? yes, there is a conversation about the potential of miss willis and mr. weighed having lied about the date of when they began to deal with one another, and that is a separate issue that could be dealt with in a separate proceeding. as far as this evidence here in this proceeding, as of, yet the defense have not put forth the actual conflict which would be necessary in order to move for with the disqualification of miss willis from this case. because it's absent, it's frustrating to go in this dog pony show in front of the country to embarrass miss willis and mr. weight and the manner that this has occurred. >> you too are wonderful and the question, as you, said does revolve around when the relationship started, although the best answer in the entire thing was when she was asked when it ended. and fani willis said, it

depends, if you asked him it ended in june or july, if you ask me, it ended in august because men marked the end of a relationship at the end of intense me and women and it when they discussion has been had. true or not, that was definitely a punchy line for her. thanks to both of, you melissa redmon, former fulton county district attorney -- co-host of the msnbc special documentary, black man in america. the road to 2024. it is streaming right now on peacock. that does it for me for now, but i will be back here in a couple of hours for our regularly scheduled velshi programming from 10 am until noon. i'm joined by michael cohen, trump's former personal attorney, and a key witness in the civil fraud trial. don't go anywhere my friends. alicia menendez, michael steele and symone sanders-townsend pick up our coverage, the weekend begins now.