depends, if you asked him it ended in june or july, if you ask me, it ended in august because men marked the end of a relationship at the end of intense me and women and it when they discussion has been had. true or not, that was definitely a punchy line for her. thanks to both of, you melissa redmon, former fulton county district attorney -- co-host of the msnbc special documentary, black man in america. the road to 2024. it is streaming right now on peacock. that does it for me for now, but i will be back here in a couple of hours for our regularly scheduled velshi programming from 10 am until noon. i'm joined by michael cohen, trump's former personal attorney, and a key witness in the civil fraud trial. don't go anywhere my friends. alicia menendez, michael steele and symone sanders-townsend pick up our coverage, the weekend begins now.

good morning, it is saturday, february 17th, i'm melissa menendez in new york, where simone centers tencent. and michael -- at msnbc. this morning, call out from the ruling of the criminal donald trump business empire. what the trial could mean for his upcoming criminal trial. plus, we get reaction from ukrainian president volodymyr zelenskyy, the opposition of the death of electing the valley. and the deafening silence from a critical figure. -- is here as republicans pull of aid to their allies abroad, grab your coffee, settle in, welcome to the weekend. ♪ ♪ ♪ the man who wants to when the country for the next four years could not run a business in new york state for the next three. that is part of judge arthur engoron's civil fraud ruling against donald trump.

engoron also found the republican front runner more than $350 million, with pre judgment interests, trump already owes more than 450 million. a spokesperson for the trump organization called the ruling a quote horse miscarriage of justice. in his decision, engoron said, quote, defendants refusal to admit ever -- constrains this court to conclude they will engage in that going forward, unless judicially restraint. joining me in new york, msnbc correspondent -- and washington d.c., they've it bearing whole. >> ty, lisa. since we've been hanging out so much this week, i want to start with you. because, you know, this is a big number. i declare how you dress it up or dress it down, that's a big number for him. what goes through how the judge came to this, what this means for donald trump, and what is

potential impact is on his business opportunities in new york? >> so, michael, the number that the judge arrived at here largely comports with the relief that the attorney general asked for. it wasn't that they invented a number out of whole cloth, it corresponds to what they say were ill gotten gains obtained by the trump organization and the individual defendants, mainly donald trump, from several different buckets. one of them is the saved interest that they got in negotiating loans through their fraud. basically, the argument is they got loans at much lower interest rates than they should have ordinarily gotten, because if people had understood the full totality of donald trump's financial picture, they never would have loaned him these rights. some of the other money comes and proceeds donald trump from sales. he saw the least, for example, to the old post office in washington d.c.. he also, earlier, last year, sorry, in june of 2020, three

transferred a lease to that that was compilation, muscling and for gaming, at a golf course here in the bronx. operated by new york city. there are some other components here to the overall number, but those three buckets compose the majority of the awards that judge arthur engoron made yesterday. of course, as we learn later in the afternoon, you add another hundred million dollars, give or take, to that for prejudge meant interest, based on when these sales were made or when that interest was saved, and all told, we are really now looking at an award of over $450 million, and that is before you get to post judgment insurance to, michael. >> that's a lot of money. >> that's a lot of money. >> it's a lot of money. david, i think you have covered donald trump in a way when he was president and a way that few others have a deftly done. your reporting was always spot on and i am wondering one, what do we though about donald

trump's ability to pay this fine? also, given the other fines are literally racking up against him from the e. jean carroll case is what i'm thinking of, and secondly, what test the reaction been in their orbit about this ruling? >> well, the trump organization is still kind of a black box to us. we know a little bit more about it than we used to, and what we know is he has, at last report, about $600 million of liquid assets of cash. things he can turn over right now. , so between this 450 and the e jean carroll verdict of more than 80 million, we're talking about a big chunk of that cash being eaten up. that doesn't mean donald trump is going to go bankrupt. he still owns a lot of real estate that he can sell and turn into cash, and he's also making a lot of money from political activities. people just paying him for speeches, and he has this weird, if you guys remember, truth social, that stop? he attempted to create a public company, it's moving forward. that could create billions of dollars of assets for him. he's not gonna go broke, but this could seriously decimate

the trump organization as we know it. it's not a big company, now, it's looking a lot of money and basically all of its leaders. >> the fact, lisa, that they testified and their credibility was called into question. what does that mean legally for him now and moving forward? >> i think it should cost donald trump's attorneys to really consider the utility of his testimony and upcoming trials. you will remember that after he testified in this case, and he was forced to testify by the attorney general, he didn't testify in his own defense when it came time for his lawyers to present his case. he testified very, very briefly in the e. jean carroll trial, but not by choice. literally because judge luke kaplan didn't want to listen to him pontificate. so i think, first and foremost, it presents folks like dog and susan douglas, to represent him in this upcoming criminal trial, with a real dilemma. this is a judge who said that donald trump's own testimony was not credible. it was highly suspect to him. he also said the same thing

about allen weisselberg. that's important, because allen weisselberg and michael cohen are sort of the other two sides of what i would call the trump holy trinity when it comes to who is in the room when donald trump gives his indirect mob boss like instructions about what he wants to have happen. that was no less true in this case than it will be in the upcoming manhattan d.a.'s criminal trial, where the allegations in the indictment were that trump completely understood what the arrangement was going to be. michael cohen was going to pay stormy daniels, then, he and weisselberg and trump came up with this scheme for repayment that disguised as repayments as if they were invoices for legal services. so, i think it should cost the trump world some serious pause, and yet, a clients always has the right to direct their own defense. increasingly, you see donald trump surrounded by lawyers who are unwilling to say no to him. i was stunned earlier this week at a hearing in the criminal trial, when todd and, who i

will confess, i know from practice, and the very end of the conference, the judge asked him, was there anything else, mr. bland, she would like to add? and he put his head and conferred with trump, lifted it up, and then made the same this is political interference. this is election interference argument that trump makes all the time in his own behalf. but he was insistent a lawyer make it for him. >> michael, that is one hell of a holy trinity, to borrow lisa rubin's words. >> yes, just as your beginning lent, this is what we start with. it really is. and david, i want to ask you a little bit about the sort of, the >> aspects of this case that are lost over. people don't really get into in terms of how judge and quran really kind of came down to this ruling the, board importantly, how the trump team is responding to it. we have, for example, the reaction in a statement from the organization saying today throwing is a gross miscarriage of justice.

every member of the new york business community don't matter, the business should be gravely concerned if it's gross overreach and brees attempt by the attorney general to exert limitless power, were no private or public harm has been established. it's the private versus public harm argument that i think trump's team it's going to be leaning into. there was no harm, no foul here. but that clearly landed on deaf ears with the judge. how do you see trump playing this narratively for the public? to make it seem like yet again, he is a victim? and trying to find some comfort with other members of the new york business community who may find themselves similarly situated? >> i do think that has been his argument. to the public and the judge, it just didn't work with the judge, well, the lenders are still happy to lend with me. they still made money. i made all my known payments. it currently said earlier, this is about truth. you can just live your lenders. even if in the end, you pay that man you got alone, in new

york and everywhere else, there is an assumption of truthfulness. if your lenders asking for your assets and you like them on purpose, to try to get a better deal, that's against the rules. so, i think trump is trying to sort of get rid of those differences in the way the public will understand. but even then, the old adage, if you're explaining, you're losing. i think this argument is more complicated than a judge dispossessed of 100 million for fraud. >> david, that point is just so important. i want to pull directly from judge engoron's ruling in case folks are just waking up this morning and haven't had a chance to hear what he had to say. but he writes donald trump is not bernard made off. yet defendants are incapable of admitting the error of their ways. instead, they adopt a see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil posture that the evidence belies. and after this ruling came out, or part it this decision from

the judge came out, you had a.g. letitia james, who is the person who brought this suit, who now, again, has found some justice for folks, she spoke about why she felt this was very important. i want to play that for folks. >> today, justice has been served. today, we prove that nobody is above the law. no matter how rich, powerful, or politically connected you are, everyone must play by the same rules. donald trump may have offered the art of the deal, but he perfected the art of the steel. this long running fraud it was intentional, egregious, illegal, and he did it all, he did all of this with the help of the other defendants, his two adult sons, and senior executives at the trump organization. >> it's black history month. of course, tish james is gonna give her statement! look, donald trump does believe he is above the law, and every

single moment that he is met with even just a little bit of justice, i think that it is, it just further underscores our systems, systems that he has tried through various ways, whether it's our political system, our legal system, to dismantle. and today, yesterday, judge engoron and the state of new york, they stood up to donald trump. >> i think that's an important part of this conversation, lisa. because what letitia james did or something no one thought could really be done, to be honest. everyone thought this was just you know, parking in the winds, making a lot of noise, and it was all politics. there was substantive criminal activity going on in hiding resources,, inflating resources and assets. and, it's come home for him. you wrote a great piece for msnbc.com on friday. before the ruling came out,

talking a little bit about why trump just can't up and move out of new york. and sort of really contextualizing what israel for this man right now. talk to us about your thinking and your piece on trump's truth in his businesses in new york? >> michael, i wrote that piece in large part because it was a conversation i had had with people outside the worlds of journalism and law, asking me well, wait a second. after saying he can't do business in new york, why wouldn't you just take your assets and your bank account and move them to a more hospitable state, like florida, where he lives? trump has been under a preliminary injunction, which is just a fancy way of saying and order that restrains him. since 2022, he cause of this investigation, and because of this case. about two months after letitia james first filed her complaint, she asked for that relief, saying that she had enough evidence to show even at that early stage that he should be prevented from doing a number of things with his

assets. those things include after the appointment of the independent monitor, he cannot wholesale transfer, sale, any of his significant assets without notice to the independent monitor. nor can he restructure or refinances businesses either. that's important, because as david noted, if you're a person who's liquidity is thought to bump up right against the two liability determinations you already have, in that e. jean carroll case and here, you would think that one solution is to just borrow money. in fact, trump has done that before in order to satisfy a judgment in the trump university case. he borrowed money from latter capital, which is an institution which is allen weisselberg's son, jack, is affiliated. but he can't do that here, and the reason is because this order, in addition to the preliminary injunction saying you can't refinance, you can restructure without advance notice, this sort of goes even further. it says you can't borrow money from a new york registered or

chartered bank. period. for what i believe is at least a three-year period of time. that means in order to satisfy these judgments, donald trump has to, i think, rely on his own asset base. and, yet he has an independent monitor who's going to be on top of him every step of the way, as well as a new independent director of compliance, who's going to be scouring the books and making sure that what happens at the trump organization from that lawn is on the up and up, to use illegal term. >> michael before, i can fix over to you, can i just add that when i heard lisa rubin say he can't just take his assets to florida, it very much reminded me of earlier this week, when fani willis misheard the word hordes? i thought we were going in a very different direction there for a second. >> there was a moment. there is a moment. i was with you. sounds like, symone, there's gonna be a lot of fire cells going on in new york for new york. lisa rubin, stick around, because one trump trial ends, another begins.

we are weeks from the beginning of trump's first criminal trial. the hush money payments case, and, we are keeping an eye on breaking news out of munich, where right now, ukrainian president zelenskyy is holding a joint press conference with vice president kamala harris. we'll bring you the latest in a moment. you are watching the weekends. . my eyes are watering. look how crusty this is. ugh, it's just too much. not with this. good advice. when stains and odors pile up, it's got to be tide. subway's tuna is off the hook! it's 100 percent wild-caught. this tuna is fishing for a compliment and i'm taking the bait. alright, i'm all punned out. i'm o-fish-ally finished. get it? try subway's tasty tuna today. detect this: living with hiv, craig learned he can stay undetectable with fewer medicines. that's why he switched to dovato. dovato is a complete hiv treatment for some adults. no other complete hiv pill uses fewer medicines to help keep you undetectable than dovato.

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save the date, folks, because donald trump's first

criminal trial, and i think it's really important to know, will start on march 25th on thursday. judge won marchand, and i believe that is the judges name, y'all, they set the date for the former presidents hush money trial to adult film star, stormy daniels, ahead of the 2016 election. that's when the payments happened. remember, this is something, not the last cycle, but the cycle before that. this, week donald trump's lawyers failed to get the 34 felony counts he's facing for that thrown out. outside the courthouse, trump falsely claimed the trial amounted to election interference. to be very clear, it does not. lisa rubin and david fahrenthold are back with us. you know, david, were you surprised about the timing of this trial start date, by march 25th? this is the first criminal trial. i know a lot of people thought thought d.c. was going to end up going first, but given the calendar in the openings, the judge in new york is taking his chance. >> i'm no lawyer, but i was not surprised.

this is the first criminal case to be filed against trump, and in some ways, it's the sibblis. it doesn't involve a huge number of witnesses or a long amount of time, like the georgia case, or the d.c. january 6th case. this involves a small number of people and a couple of transaction. so, i guess i'm not surprised it would be going first. >> lisa, i want to connect the dots between the civil fraud trial and this criminal case. specifically as it relates to witnesses to michael cohen and to weisselberg. >> yeah, so, we were talking in the last segment about how michael cohen and allen weisselberg were key figures in this last new york attorney general civil fraud trial. that is amplified in the next upcoming criminal case, because aside from the people at the national enquirer, who participated in what they called the catch and kill scheme, by which they arranged to have people who allege sexual relationships, with donald trump, paid. but people who are privy to the conversations with donald trump himself about paying off he's folks, specifically, stephanie

clifford or stormy daniels or mild girl cohen and allen weisselberg. >> there's been questions about their credibility. >> just one last question about the credibility, because both men are convicted felons, right? allen weisselberg took a plea and the trump organization criminal tax fraud trial in 2022. that was a separate tax fraud scheme from the other two that we are talking about. took a plea, he had to testify, he was very careful not to implicate donald trump himself. but as a result of his testimony and other evidence, the organization itself was convicted and paid a one billion dollar plus fine. allen weisselberg was sentenced to five months in rikers island. he served about three of those, but as a man in his mid 70s, i don't imagine that was an easy time for him. he has since retired, and is said to be under investigation and in plea negotiations with the same new york d.a.'s office that is prosecuting donald trump for what? for perjuring himself in this civil fraud trial. a question that hasn't yet been resolved, judge engoron trying

to get to the bottom of it, and he reminded the lawyers that they have an ethical obligation to come forward if they understand that any witness, including their client, had not told the truth on the stand. they did not come forward with that, and instead, through more accusations at him about their bias. now, let's go to michael cohen, because michael cohen is also a convicted felon who served time. he pled guilty to perjury. he was charged in the southern district of new york. in relation to lying to congress about some of these things, right? but michael cohen, according to judge engoron, while not maybe a completely reformed person, and still guilty of perjury, it is a credible witness. i don't know if you want to get into what judge engoron said about him, but he essentially said, a less forgiving fact finder might have been cool concluded differently, might not have believed a single word of a convicted perjurer. this fact finder does not believe that pleaded guilty to perjury means you can never tell the truth.

michael cohen told the truth. he goes on to explain that one of the reasons he believed michael cohen was michael cohen was relaxed. he was forthcoming. he wasn't invasive. in contrast to weisselberg and all of the trump family members, who suspiciously have a lack of memory about most things of interest to the attorney generals office. michael cohen really told as it was. and when asked did, you lie to a federal judge when you pled guilty in this case? he very willingly said yes, and he explained his rationale for doing so. >> michael, it keeps becoming more and more apparent, the connective tissue between all of these cases. >> oh, yeah. there's a lot of connective tissue, and the pressure on it is obviously becoming more and more obvious on the trump team. david, i want to talk to you about todd blanche, trump's lawyer who, you know, really did the whole whiny, i've gotta run. he's running for president! he saying, quote, we strictly objective what is happening to this courtroom, brett said during the hearing, which lasted more than 90 minutes.

the fact that president trump is going to now spend the next two months working on this trial instead of out on the campaign trail, running for president, it should not happen in this country. well, it should have been in this country, if a candidate or president did what trump has done. so, how does this sit with judges who are listening and watching these trials, this kind of behavior and comments coming out of a matter like this, before it comes to them. does this sort of set up what they're going to be in for? the public is tuned in. how does this kind of language frame the thinking around cases like this? >> they look at trump's legal history they, would be expecting a. trump strategy going back to the 80s, the 70s, has been you don't try the case, you try the court. you make or on the process. you try to make yourself as big of a pain for investigators, for prosecutors, for courts as

we possibly can. and hope that they will tire out and give up, and that worked for a long time. i think he's now still trying it, despite the fact that he's lost so many times. this is hurting generals civil suit was an example of someone who sort of fall through lots and lots of delays to finally get to a verdict. this idea it's election interference, that it's gonna be someone from running for president, you should get a pass from criminal trespassing running for president. i don't think anybody believes, it but it's another way to slow things down. it's not the right to sort of try the process, rather than actually trying the case of the facts that which trump is accused. >> we saw reuben and david fair and hold, thank you both, very very much for joining us this morning. coming up next, folks, ukraine's president just addressed the conference of world leaders in germany. it's new words on vladimir putin and the deaths of russia's opposition leader. you're watching the weekend. o you're watching the weekend. and powerful vicks vapors to vaporize sore throat pain. vicks vapocool drops. vaporize sore throat pain.

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russian opposite or alexei navalny's political allies has confirmed his death thing his mother received official notification. this morning ukrainian president volodymyr zelenskyy became the latest world leader to accuse vladimir putin of killing navalny. moments ago zelenskyy wrapped up a press conference with vice president kamala harris. here is what harris had to say. >> i will say that alexei navalny has been a brave leader who stood up against corruption and autocracy. he stood up for the truth. the reports of his death are further truth of putin's brutality. >> with us now julia coffey, founding partner and washington correspondent for puck news. >> welcome julia,. julia thank you so much for being here. i have been following your reporting on this. i know that you knew alexei navalny. he is lived in russia.

before you left he went to you're going away party, if you will, when you move back to the states. what is your reaction to having heard the news and being in the room when his wife, now widow, took the stage yesterday at the munich security conference? >> reporter: honestly, i felt a sense of disbelief. i felt like i was going to be sick. i still don't fully believe it. it is really hard to imagine. i really never fully -- everyone around here is saying, we should've expected it. why are we surprised? when he went back to russia we knew he was offering himself up as a martyr. i have to say i'm realizing i never really fully believed it. i thought that he would outlive putin. it is all best summarized by my russian friends for whom he represented a hope for the future. a lot of them have been saying, they killed our future.

they just cannot see past vladimir putin and the soviet baby boomers ruling for the foreseeable future. the presidential elections are next month. putin will definitely win for a, quote unquote, landslide. he will run and rule until 2030. really he will rule until he dies. after that everyone thought navalny had a chance. now it just seems to public. >> julia, picking up on the view that people had, we would expect this to have happened. what is the energy behind the global community rallying to this moment? emphasizing the importance of standing their ground against russian aggression at home and, certainly, at home with the ukrainian president noting in his comments that this aid package from the u.s. is vitally important right now. what are you hearing in that

regard? >> michael i think you are absolutely right. first of all when i heard you leah navalny speak with tears in her eyes and box pleading for the world gathers here to do something to hold put into account. knowing that they couldn't really do all that much but at the same time you are hearing in the corridors here that people are saying if we want to do something for navalny to bring justice it is exactly what zelenskyy said. it is to help ukraine win. you are hearing more of that in side conversations that the best way to get justice for navalny is to get aid for ukraine. get the aid package through congress and to give ukraine everything it needs to win. >> that julia is where we find

ourselves intersecting with domestic politics. i want to read you part of what house speaker mike johnson had to say about navalny's death. quote, if confirmed, this action is emblematic a potent global pattern of silencing critics and eliminating opponents out of your dissent. this is the latest attempt to sentiments its bills working to confront moscow's aggression. here is the part i really want you to react to. in the coming days, as internationally to that meeting in munich, we must be clear that putin will be met with united opposition. as you pointed out on axe, julia, he acts as if he doesn't know there is a foreign aid package before his caucus that they could push through right now. >> right. or he acts like just a random american joe saying, we gotta do something. as opposed to the speaker of the house of representatives to the united states of america who has every possibility, all the power in his hands, he can bring this bill to a vote where

it will most likely pass overwhelmingly. he has already said many times that he wouldn't do that. i hope this has changed that for him but we will see. >> julia, it was two years ago before vladimir putin invaded ukraine, that president zelenskyy came to munich security conference to warrant and, i think pleased, with the international community to be ready to stand up to putin's aggression. there were many world leaders at the time who did not believe what zelenskyy and, frankly, what the americans and vice president harris and secretary blinken at the time who went to the conference were saying about the impending threat from vladimir putin. he was ready to act. we now know he did two years later. this is where we are. there are many experts and international diplomats who have noted they don't think ukraine can hold on an of the

year without the emission, the weapons, that they need to fly. what happens now? what are the conversations being had at the conference? you had everyone there from the german chancellor to tusk from poland. what are people saying, what are folks prepared to do? >> people are saying this is the do or die moment. i spoke to jason crow yesterday. he is a congressman from colorado. he just came back from kyiv, from the front in ukraine. he was telling me ukraine is about to run out of anti aircraft ammunition in two weeks. two weeks! as you recall, russia has been intent on so not just what military installation but specifically civilian infrastructure. heat, energy, water. on purpose to starve and bt grinding people into

submission. if we don't come through now, the message here has been in the conversation that if the u.s. doesn't release this aid now, it will get really bad really fast. ukraine just withdrew from a frontline town yesterday. it is getting really, really, bad. this is do or die. unfortunately but -- navalny's death has helped accentuate that. this is the moment. the west need to recommit. if they do not do so now, they will give putin a big win. and you can feel, being told that navalny has done, and putin feels the wind is at his back. >> he obviously feels that he will meet no consequences. julia yoshi, thank you very much for your time. in the next hour, folks, andrea mitchell will join us. right now she is in munich. she is speaking with vice

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ask your doctor about switching. special counsel robert hur, who declined to prosecute president biden over his handling of classified documents because he said there was not enough evidence to do so is now set to testify before the house committee next month on much of. biden aides are not only weighing the potential fallout of that testimony but also a lengthy partisan clash over the release of the transcript of biden's interview with hur and biden's interview with the special -- clash that will keep him in the discussion over his mental fitness. here to discuss it is former democratic national committee vice chair, michael blake, in new york. and in washington, the washington post opinion and

deter, alexi mccammond. >> right here at the table with us. welcome, alexei. you have the biden aides out there. they are focused on how special counsel interview could wind up benefiting the president's. meanwhile, you have republicans out there saying, as we noted in axios, quote, house republicans are activating a weeks long, perhaps months long, plan to keep questions about president biden's mental state in the spotlight. how does this play out? i mean, this is where we are now. we are going to spend time with everything that we just talked about in the last hour. happening in europe, and in the middle east. big budget questions coming up. this is what republicans want to spend their time on. laying out a months-long strategy to say the president is mentally unfit. >> two things, one, we know health republicans in particular are just a campaign on for donald trump at this point. they focus solely on things that will help donald trump.

they think, in his reelection efforts against president biden. the second thing, and i wonder what you guys think, i feel like it is possible now for biden not to run against himself. obviously as the incumbent president it is a referendum on his presidency in the first term. having donald trump as a foil, the foil of all foils, one he has had before and knows how to run against it is gray in theory until this report comes out, these hearings will come out, and keep biden and the objective fact about him, his age, front and center of everything. makes it so biden's running against biden. it is a lot harder to run against yourself than it is to run against a foil like trump or any other foil. i don't know how he gets around that. >> well, first of all, let's just say this. >> i knew it, i knew. >> i think it's crazy! i really think it's crazy, y'all. donald trump cannot string a sentence together. okay?

when you play sound of him -- i look through the sheet. we have some sound of donald trump to play? when you say sound of what he's saying, the man does not sound coherent! is the president hold, president biden? yes! the question is, is he there? can he do the job? everything that we have seen says yes. i do think that this is a choice election. i don't know, maybe i'm wrong. i don't know! >> part of me thinks that if democrats keep reminding people, which is important, trump is not only forgetful but the things he remembers are incredibly dangerous. the things that he talks about a dangerous. if you keep reminding people of that, isn't that reminding voters, hey, by the way, this is a choice between two old guys. no one really wants. >> i have to say -- i got you fired up, you take it. [laughs] >> i will ask michael blake about this. originally they wanted to run on the economy. they were hoping the economy would be in the toilet. that's what you had donald trump saying. unfortunately for them the economy is on the up. they wanted to run on

immigration but they somehow bungled that one. part of the problem for them is they have nothing to run on except their own attacks. >> you pretty much said my points right here. this is a republican distraction. if we are talking about age, let's be very clear, they are both old. and a sentence. at the end of the day if they actually want to talk about things, let's talk about their accomplishments and what is going. on president biden for thousand monthly jobs. trump about 170,000. we'll talk about the future council, what is happening in march. president biden afghanistan before the country at the state of the union. donald trump's gonna stand on trial. they do not have anything else to say. our focus has to be let's talk about the future and winds and republicans don't have anything else. >> in addition to that there is the contrast we keep seeing in the fact that donald trump has been told in this latest ruling you cannot run a business in new york for the next three years. he is trying to convince the country that he can run the country for more years. >> yeah, and it gets better

than that. if donald trump is about anything it is about revisionism. especially when it comes to his lack of mental acuity. i want to play for you trump, on wednesday, talking about the purported mix-up between nikki haley and pelosi. let's take a listen to this gem. >> when i say that obama is the president of our country, they say, he doesn't know! it's biden. he doesn't know! it is very hard to be sarcastic. when i interpose, i am not a nikki fan, i am not a pelosi fan. when i purposefully interpose names they said, he didn't know pelosi from nikki! from tricky nikki, turkey dickey. he didn't know, i interposed. they make a big deal out of it. i said, no, i think they both stink. they have something in common, they both stink. >> alexei, we are the slow ones. we are the ones, we should've

known oh -- >> no he just didn't say. we cannot match his mental energy. [laughs] >> exactly. >> they can't even hold it together. yeah, i don't know about that. >> it was sarcasm you guys, obviously. >> this is where we find ourselves. we look at things objectively here. he comes back and tells us, no. that's not what you heard. this is what i said, this is what i'm. and it really becomes a problem narrative to your earlier point. for the biden team to always be slightly, if not directly, on some form of defensive platform. i think there are ways around that. are you hearing and seeing from your reporting a strategy developing as you alluded to before with the biden team to get in front of some of the stuff? really re-frame donald trump.

you can reframe him on his age. i think you can re-frame him on his mental acuity and a whole bunch of other things. how do you see them reframing this? >> we already see them casting heard and others as potentially partisan folks. republican actors who are politically motivated. they're reminding people of the danger of donald trump. not just what he's done, but what he says he will do. the gaslighting alone is something i think america is very aware of. the other thing a biden folks are trying to remind people of if you need to take him literally when he is saying the things he is going to do. we know exactly the sort of unrestrained power he would step into were he to be reelected given everything he has seen he can get away with. i think one aside when we are talking about trump's sarcasm, i don't think i have ever seen or heard the man laugh. i bet none of us on the show can think of what his laugh

sounds like or a moment he can actually laugh. i think it's interesting because for a number of reasons that i'm not qualified to talk about but if you are joking, laugh. if you are making a sarcastic comment, why are you laughing? >> maybe it is hard to find joy when you are saying you're gonna be a dictator on b. >> i was gonna say, that is going to haunt my dreams, alexi. trying to think of donald trump laughing. when it comes to that sound of him -- you guys don't get my sense of humor. the lady oft protest too much. there are questions about his acuity. when you put those question side-by-side with questions about his criminality, side by side with things that he himself have said about the policies he intends to act where he to come to power for a second term, when you take it in its totality, sure. his base is locked. but there is still a group of persuadable people who are waiting until september. they are gonna wait until october to make the decision. what do they need to hear from the biden camp to lock them in?

>> we need to make it very clear about their vision for the future. here is the contrast that we have. someone in president biden where the republicans do not have a substantive part -- against him. versus the 78-year-old, 91 time indicted champion of the world, donald trump, who just lost about $450 million yesterday have something to say on the other side. we saw this in the suozzi vase very recently. you talk about a vision and a path forward, your op-ed was excellent in communicating that, the path to citizenship and different policies, that is what excites people. -- the obama biden continuum, the voters out there when we excite them. the future majority, young people can get excited as well. we are talking about canceling student loans, creating jobs, all of these positive things. trump is not gonna -- he doesn't have anything to laugh about. he is a clown. let's just call it what it is. people need to understand the difference. at the end of the day they're not paying attention to the polls right now. they are gonna see the vision we have. that's why groups like us are ready to mobilize, as well.

>> michael blake, came down to 30 rock from the bronx on a very snowy day, thank you so much. alexi mccammond, as always. ahead of the week in the chair of the professional chair congress congresswoman pramila jayapal all, be sure to follow our show is at the weekend msnbc. r show is at the weekend msnbc. takes you off course. put it in check with rinvoq, a once-daily pill. when i wanted to see results fast, rinvoq delivered rapid symptom relief and helped leave bathroom urgency behind. check. when uc tried to slow me down... i got lasting, steroid-free remission with rinvoq. check. and when uc caused damage rinvoq came through by visibly repairing my colon lining. check. rapid symptom relief... lasting steroid-free remission... ...and the chance to visibly repair the colon lining. check, check, and check. rinvoq can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb. serious infections and blood clots, some fatal; cancers, including lymphoma and skin cancer; death, heart attack, stroke, and tears in the stomach or intestines occurred.

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let me tell you all, is symone's walk through checklist of suggestions from america's press -- >> it was the veteran political strategist, from politico. they gave this list. i made attitudes. >> she may just a few edits. >> i agree with number one. put biden on the road. he is on the road. don't worry about the political class. he's not. cut a campaign at the talk straight. every time he opens his mouth a man talk straight. saying they don't really need to cut an ad. embrace the totality of his extraordinary life journey. have you heard the man give a speech? >> come on now! >> reform his image. from an old man to a season statesman. >> you mean like standing on stage with flags behind him? read from a prompter? i don't think that is -- >> you know they are mad they don't get the biden contract?

>> maybe that is what they are looking for. just trying to find a job. >> here is the best part. president biden must first unite a democratic party that he has fractured. let that one sit there for a moment. [laughs] >> oh, goodness. you know what? i need to refill my coffee cup, y'all! maybe everyone else watching should do so as well. we have a lot more coming your way. including former federal attorneys kristy greenberg, anthony coley, not an attorney but used to speak for the attorneys. also our own andrea mitchell is coming up as well as congresswoman from ella jayapal. stick around for another hour of the weekend straight ahead. .

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