judge engoron's decision dropped right at three pm eastern yesterday, one minute later, we heard from donald trump, who took to his truth social platform to promote his upcoming appearance at sneaker con in philly. he followed that up by complaining that the media portrays him as being fat. you can't make this stuff up. another hour of velshi begins right now. and good morning, saturday february the 17th, we begin this morning with donald trump's legal predicament and landmark ruling that could potentially affect his livelihood and affect his already bruised ego. yesterday, the former president was ordered to pay a total for hundred and 53 point $5 million for us companies deceptive financial practices. that judgment includes 354 point $9 million in penalties plus 98 point $6 million of interest which is a monumental

some the new york times secular could quote wipe out trump's entire stockpile of cash. in addition, trump is barred from personally when a company in new york for three years and cannot apply from alone from any banks in the state for the same amount of time. handed down to the other o plaintiffs in the case. trump's to all the suns don jr. in eric, both of whom are executives in the family business, were ordered to pay $4 million each. meanwhile, to executives allen weisselberg jeffrey mcconney have been permanently banned from serving in financial management roles for any company in new york. additionally, weisselberg was fined $1 million, and all four of also been barred from personally running a company in new york for some period of time. this is the case that is often referred to as the new york civil fraud case, but that shorthand masks the true scope in nature of the misdeeds for which trump has now been held liable.

back in september, judge arthur engoron issued a statement, a summary judgment in the case before trial even began. he found the trump and his company liable for committing fraud for years after wildly inflating the true value of his assets in order to obtain more favorable loans, in the case, appeared to be airtight. engoron later remarked that there was, quote, enough evidence in this case to fill this courtroom, in the quote. yesterday's jaw-dropping judgment was the culmination of a years-long investigation that was set off by an exchange on capitol hill between a freshman lawmaker and a former trump insider way back in 2019. >> to your knowledge, the president ever provide inflated assets to the insurance company? >> yes. >> who else knows that the president did this? >> allen weisselberg, ron liebermann, and matthew calamari. >> and where can the committee find more information on this? do you think we need to review his financial statements and his tax returns in order to

compare them? >> yes, and you'd find it at the trump org. >> new york state attorney general letitia james has created that moment with helping her launched the investigation into trump organizations shadowy business practices, but james was not the only one. trump's refusal to release his tax returns during the 2016 presidential campaign bucked a decades old practice in american politics and spurred live discussions about the state of his finances. his checkered history, which includes numerous failed business ventures in multiple companies that filed for bankruptcy, also made people suspicious about his sources of income and how rich he actually was. years before letitia james launched her investigation, a team of journalists at the new york times were already hot on the trail. beginning in 2016, the times published a series of subsequently pulitzer prize- winning stories that examined donald trump's financial history in great detail and revealed the dodgy practices that he enters companies employed year after year.

joining me now, is one of those pulitzer prize-winning investigative reporter for the new york times, suzanne craig. you have been on tv much more than i have this week, which is a feat, and again, congratulations on the reporting that she did because sometimes good reporting actually influences things in the end, and that is one of those cases. part of it is that it is complex. the reported incident from's finances and business practices back then was deeply complicated, such that it took up tens of thousands of words in the new york times to tell that story properly. >> it took us years, when i look back at it. it's interesting, i'm glad that you started with the point that he had initially promised to release his tax returns. i think about that a lot, and i think that if he had just released one or two of his tax returns, i don't think it would have set a lot of this off. i know we probably wouldn't have embarked on what we did, which turned out just because we kept finding new stuff. >> you are looking for a simple

question. >> we were looking for just kind of the state of play of his finances, if we got a tax returns, great, but we are just trying to get a better understanding of things, and we just kept digging and digging and digging because he would not release his tax returns initially. i think about that so often, because i wonder how history would have changed at least in my life if he had. >> because there is nothing weird in the journalism of that. we are accustomed to the fact that in modern history, presidents give you some sense of their financial affairs. >> and it's an important thing when you're in the white house, because we just want to know the influences there on the person in the white house making decisions about so many things. the economy, world affairs. you want to understand what pressures are on that individual. so it starts out like most things in journalism disinfo question, and we started digging, and it ended up that we did a piece in 2018 that won the pulitzer prize. it looked at the inherent wealth of donald trump, and that was important because he

had run for office as a self made billionaire. it was central to him, and he said that i have 1 million dollar loan from my father who had a tiny, beautiful company in the -- and in fact he did have a company in the outer boroughs worth a lot more than donald trump said, and he got a lot more money from his father, and he inherited money and what he got was enhanced by tax fraud. we kept looking for the tax returns, because those are just another piece of it. they're not everything with somebody's finances, but they are important. we kept looking for it. in 2020, we managed to get decades of his corporate and personal tax returns, which revealed that pretty much all businesses lose money, and he is putting money, tens of millions of dollars into many of them just to keep them going. >> back in 2018 when you when i first talked about this particular issue, and we go back many many years as financial journalists, one of the things that we discussed in

that first discussion after the publication was that other companies do this. some of this is standard practice, and that is something that donald trump's lawyers were trying to get this court to accept. it may be wrong, it may be illegal, but it happens. you had an interesting answer to that yesterday. >> right, first of all, just because everybody does it -- it would be a confession in a court, so that is one thing, but i think there are two things. there's a lot of discussion about the valuations and there are a lot of games played with valuations, and nobody's ever brought to justice on that. on that point, donald trump went way beyond. >> that's right. these are not 5% higher valuations. >> but the case wasn't just about that. he was actually misrepresenting things like his cash on hand banks. he was doing so much more, and i think it is important that people understand that the valuation game, and we've written a lot about it, and i think people think about it when they think about donald trump because everybody talks about the try plex in trump

tower, his condo that he inflated, the square footage, that sort of thing. those sort of games were just part of this case. it was much larger. >> in some cases, he is the square footage of an elevator, which you don't do, but that would not be considered -- the >> and then just misrepresented things. i mean the cash, which was hugely important when you are bank and you are looking to land. >> donald trump thinks the venue had something to be convicted, the biopsies of the judge, the bases of the attorney general. obviously, we've all heard these kinds of stories before. everybody gets convicted think somebody's out to get there. >> we hear from don trump at everything you he isn't. >> and he will appeal and it might be two appeals, and that might take over a year, but they're also some other things going on. this is being redirected to the irs, which has never met an audit investigation that they don't like, at least again possibly to the manhattan -- to the federal authorities. >> right, on the irs point, are

you referring to the audit that the times has reported on? >> yeah. >> the audit is another issue we are not talk about a lot. we reported in the story in 2020 when we got his tax returns. we could see in that information that we got that there was a lot of data, there was not going on. we determine just based on that one audit that it has been going on for years, that he could face a penalty in excess of $100 million, and i would imagine that is growing every day with interest. that audit is going on inside of the irs. we have no visibility into it. we don't think that it's been settled, but we don't know. but that is another pressure that is potentially on him. that is a real issue, and added on top of the other ones, there are several judges that we saw yesterday with e. jean carroll penalties that he's going to have to pay, these are huge, and they are not things that you can just put off for another day. >> so if you're playing with this on your calculator, you're above $500 million at this point. >> right, and i'm always

careful to say to with this, there is a lot that we don't know. i try to tell people what i do now, but there could be other things that we just don't know about. like he's got -- i was just thinking this morning, we talk about how he sold a few assets. one of them that is mentioned a lot is the old post office that he owns the license to that. he got hundred 39 million for that one. he has to cut potentially attacks before that. it was all in court filings that he was sending payments out, so there are things like that, there might be other things that we just don't know about. >> so it still just ultimately iceberg. thank you for amazing reporting for years and years and years, susanne, we appreciate. it >> thank you for having me. susanne craig is a pulitzer prize-winning investigative reporter the new york times. we will continue this conversation for somebody who knows the trump org intimately, robert -- is a former executive vice president there. and today's meeting at the velshi banned book club does not feature single work of literature, and said we're looking at the academy award nominated documentary that explores the dangers of the

book banning epidemic and what exactly who is hurt most by it. young americans. it. young americans. >> third foul of the award- winning books, and you can look at a shelf, and a blessed us with -- which personally is a second grade level book for me. >> i like mystery in black history. i'm reading the book stamped right now, and i'm really into it because i read it every single night. >> a lot of the back history books are being pulled. >> i don't know if we have any -- books and i think, but if we did, they would be taking them away. >> take away all of these excellent books? it's like you're trying to slow down children's reading. why do that? >> you want to read above our grid. >> i hope that they see this and are, like these are a bunch of ten year olds. year olds. ♪ ♪ i got the power of 3. i lowered my a1c, cv risk, and lost some weight.

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barbara -- xi is the former executive vice president of the trump organization, where she worked for 18 years. she's the author of the book the tower of lies, 18 years of working with donald trump reveals about him. barbara, it's been a long time since you and i've spoken, good to see you again. thank you for being with us this morning. one of the things i'm asking people who have encountered or followed or written about donald trump for all these years, for many americans, this trial in this judgment were surprising in their scope. and the things they learned. how much of it was surprising to you? >> well, in terms of the ruling, i can't comment. but it seems like it was major. but in terms of trump's lying and cheating and hiding facts. absolutely. that rings true. of course it rings true. >> sorry, go ahead, barbara. >> i was gonna add, a larger

scale -- for many years ago. >> let me read a little something from judge engoron's ruling. what he said about the trump family's inability to acknowledge any wrongdoing. he said the complete lack of contrition and remorse borders on pathological. they were accused only of inflating asset values to make more money. the documents prove this over and over again. this is a venule sin, not a mortal sin. the defense did not commit murder or arson. they did not rob a bank at gunpoint. donald trump is not bernie madoff. yet, defendants aren't capable of admitting the error of their ways. instead, they adopt a see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil posture, that the evidence belies. does that sound familiar to you? >> certainly. you have to remember, look back -- maybe the early 70s. when the trump, fred and donald, we're discriminating against people of color in their housing projects in brooklyn. you know, they were accused, they went to trial. they brought in roy cohn, his

mantra was, never admit to anything. never, ever. and donald has taken that throughout his life. he loved roy. that advice he will never admit to doing anything wrong. even if it's inconsequential. >> you actually said the other night, that you thought donald trump, well, now the other night, this was last year, you said to cnn, you thought that donald trump was enjoying this process. do you think he still is? >> i don't think he likes getting buffeted around and things being said about him that are so awful, such as what was in the ruling. but i think that he is okay to the extent that he can spin it. he is absconded with that. i think it's hard, he believes, one, he's gonna get away with it. and to, he thinks that he can make money off of this somehow. get more fundraising. more people to feel sorry for him. oh my god, look what they're

doing to trump. he must be president. let's give him some money. >> i would agree. that does seem to work for him. people develop sympathy and affinity for him, no matter what happens. but let's talk about the myth of the guy who, as you just heard suzanne craig say, inherited more from his dad then he likes to admit. is not a self made as he'd like to admit. it has had a lot of his wealth built on at least some fraud. the myth of donald trump that a lot of people follow is still not broken. for others, it is. what's the sense of it to you? do you have a sense that, you know, the emperor has no clothes? has the real donald trump been exposed now? >> i'd like to think -- i'd like to thank. so i'm not certain of that. absolutely not. because, you know, exposed to whom? to the normal people? intelligent people? thinking people? caring people? no, we do all this before. before he was even accused.

but it exposed to his supporters, no, nothing is gonna change his supporters. two kinds of supporters, the one that's walking locks depp with maga guys. and wealthy people, who don't care what happens to that constitution as long as their taxes are low, and there's no regulation. there's no regulation of anything. >> i'm glad you said that, because that's where a lot of people stand right now. he'll make all sorts of excuses for donald trump because, really what they want is lower taxes. and less regulation. for those people who are not moved by this, is that on them? or is donald trump that compelling in your experience in working with him for so long? >> i'm not sure what you mean by that. >> the people who will not be moved by, this people who continue to believe in donald trump and support him, are they doing so because of those reasons? or is trump that compelling to people? >> he's the pied piper. he's totally compelling.

and these people do, the people who lived all their lives, until 2016 17, they had to hide the fact that they were racists instead of -- sexist. and trump made all that possible. it was okay. you could be like that. that's the american way. they're never gonna give up on that. they love him for that. and they love him because he's gonna protect their guns, he's gonna make abortion continue to be illegal. he's going to try to get as many non-papered people out of the, country they love him for that. even if he was the pied piper, they follow him. they believe he's the second coming. i really think that. >> unbelievable. barbara, thanks again. good to see you, thank you for joining us. barbara res, former executive vice president of the trump organization. author of tower of lies, what my 18 years of working with donald trump reveals about him. coming up, a month to go before russia's upcoming elections,

and week before the anniversary of its full scale invasion of ukraine, the russian opposition leader, alexei navalny, has been found dead in a remote arctic prison. after a quick break, i'll talk to a close friend of navalny. julia yaffe e. yaffe e. and prevent t strikes migraine attacks, all in one. don't take if allergic to nurtec. allergic reactions can occur, even days after using. most common side effects were nausea, indigestion, and stomach pain. ask about nurtec odt. you always got your mind on the green. not you. you! your business bank account with quickbooks money now earns 5% apy. (♪♪) that's how you business differently. intuit quickbooks.

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migraine attacks, all in one. don't take if allergic to nurtec. allergic reactions can occur, even days after using. most common side effects were nausea, indigestion, and stomach pain. ask about nurtec odt. house republicans are playing defense this, morning after an fbi informant, who central to their impeachment inquiry into the president was federally indicted for lying to investigators about president biden and his son hunter. 43-year-old alexander smirnoff is facing two federal counts for making a false statement to a government agent, and falsifying records in a federal investigation. the very same false statements around which republicans built their case to impeach the president nbc's peter alexander asked by about what comes next yesterday at the white house. >> should the inquiry be dropped?

>> he is lying. and it should be dropped. and it's been a an outrageous effort from the beginning. >> today, smirnov is being held in a las vegas detention center awaiting federal hearing set for tuesday. chief white house correspondent peter alexander as the details. >> reporter: house republicans case for impeaching president biden may be falling apart. after special counsel david weiss charged a former fbi informant with lying about financial ties, between president biden, his son hunter, and ukrainian energy company, burisma. top democrats now calling the gop to abandon the impeachment inquiry. >> even donald trump's handpicked special counsel, mr. weiss, has now brought charges against this confidential human informant who turns out, presumably, allegedly, engaged in fraud from the very beginning. >> those burisma allegations were the focus of house republicans, push for impeachment. according to the justice

department, alexander smirnov was arrested in las vegas after returning from a trip overseas. a 37-page indictment alleges smirnov had been a confidential source for the fbi since 2010. and that he provided false, derogatory information to the fbi about both bidens after joe biden became a candidate for president in 2020. the doj says the source falsely claimed officials at burisma hired hunter because his father would protect them. and that the bidens were paid $5 million each. following the smirnov indictment, the house gop said the impeachment inquiry does not rely on the informant claims. even though top republicans have amplified his false allegations for months. >> the highly credible fbi source alleges that joe biden received $5 million in exchange for pressuring for the firing of the ukrainian prosecutor. >> a source familiar with the matter tells nbc news, hunter biden does not know the individual who was charged. and does not believe he ever

met him. in december, hunter biden acknowledged past financial struggles. but called house republicans quest to impeach his father baseless. >> there is no evidence to support the allegations that my father was financially involved in my business. because it did not happen. >> our thanks to nbc's peter alexander for that report. we'll be right back. alexander for that report. we'll be right back. rsv can severely affect the lungs and lower airways. but i'm protected with arexvy. arexvy is a vaccine used to prevent lower respiratory disease from rsv in people 60 years and older. rsv can be serious for those over 60, including those with asthma, diabetes, copd, and certain other conditions. but i'm protected. arexvy is proven to be over 82% effective in preventing lower respiratory disease from rsv and over 94% effective in those with these health conditions. arexvy does not protect everyone and is not for those with severe allergic reactions

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it's been 22 months since russia not opposition politician, washington post contributor, and my friend vladimir coromato was arrested in russia. a day after appearing on this very show for daring to speak out against vladimir putin and his war in ukraine. kara-murza, who rain remains in russia detainment and suffer from multiple health issues hasn't been sentenced to 25 years in prison. yet, throughout it all, kara- murza has remained defiant. bravely standing by his beliefs. on thursday, the washington post published his new op-ed, even from a russian prison, i can see putin's weakness. it's an important and timely peace. it's the latest in a series of powerful pieces that kara-murza has penned from prison. this one, as you can see, coming from special regime prison colony number seven, opec, russia. earlier piece in august 23rd, coming from pretrial detention center number five, moscow. it tells the story of kara- murza bizarre in dystopian

participation in the trial of russian opposition leader, alexei navalny, which kara- murza compares to a scene in france cough does the trial. kara-murza ends the -- by relaying an exchange the two had, quote, only in a russian court cannon extremist call a traitor as his defensive witness. alexei quipped during our courtroom exchange. referring to the respective charge against us. they've been stranger things. i replied. alexander solzhenitsyn was declared a traitor, nelson mandela was declared a terrorist. somehow, time has set everything right. and so it will again in russia. of this, i have no doubt. yesterday, russian state media reported that alexei navalny was did. his spokesperson has since confirmed his death, navalny was an outspoken opponent of putin, a champion of democracy, who fought corruption in survived several poisoning attempts. he was 47 years old. russian officials claim navalny lost consciousness after taking

a walk in a penal colony, he was moved to around christmas, located in the north of the arctic circle in the remote village of carp. about 15 mile miles north of uncheck, where kara-murza is imprisoned. this video of navalny on thursday, as you can see, he was smiling. his spirit never wavered. joining me now is the founding partner in washington correspondent for puck news, julia -- she's in munich, germany, for the munich security conference. julia, thank you for joining us. russia says navalny died in prison. the u.s. is laying blame, or responsibility for his death at the hands of vladimir putin. what do we actually know about navalny's death? >> well, we know that he died in russian state custody in this penal colony north of the eye arctic circle in, and when they say he was taking a walk, we should be clear, he lived in a cell that was specially built

for him. it was a few paces wide and a few more paces long. and then there was a separate, equally sized cell just with no roof that was where he took his outdoor walks. so, he lived in really, really harsh conditions. he has spent a third of the time he has been in russian state custody in solitary confinement. his health has been suffering. and his health never fully recovered after the august 2020 poisoning by novichok. that said, as you showed in that video on thursday from his hearing where he's poking fun at the judge and asking her to transfer her salary into his account because he's running low to pay for all these trials, you can see his trademark sense of humor there. the fact that it was so sudden also implies that it could have been, he may have been adventhealth, but was probably pushed over the edge. i should remind viewers, the

russian presidential election is next month. and it seems that one repton is very happy whether he ordered them to take this action or if it occurred naturally, if you get into such a term, since he's clearing the decks -- the doctrine are clear for the election next month. >> which is odd, because the outcome of the election would never have been in doubt. russia is one of those places where people vote but democracy is not really a thing. talk to me about the state of opposition to vladimir putin inside of russia. i remember when volodymyr kara- murza went back, we're all worried that he would get arrested. which is exactly what happened. he got arrested. that's what happens if you oppose putin in russia. you go to jail. >> the thing is that these days, you go to jail not just because you oppose vladimir putin. people are going to jail for all sorts of things. a couple of weeks ago, a 72-

year-old woman was given five years in a penal colony for re- posting to social media posts by somebody else. a young woman was sentenced to several years, also in a penal colony, for wearing earrings that had rainbows on them. because russia has now legally declared the lgbtq movement is an extremist movement on par with i.s.i.s.. people, russia is an environment now where students, great school students, call the police on their teachers to root them out for being insufficiently patriotic or criticizing the war, criticizing putin. teachers are calling a police on their students. there was a case in sochi, where to diners, a married couple, were sitting and quietly talking to each other about their disapproval for the war at their table. in diners at the neighboring table called police on them. people are arrested for reading certain books on the moscow metro, the one that tucker carlson loved so very much. so, people are scared. what's left of the russian opposition in russia is

terrified. most of the russian opposition outside, they're outside. they can do all that much. now, they've been completely decapitated. there is nobody to lead them. everybody was circulating this video yesterday of alexei in the cnn documentary, which won an oscar last year. saying if i'm gone, keep fighting. but it's hard to imagine how the russian opposition will keep fighting now. because navalny was just such a smart fighter. so good at organizing them. thinking of creative ways around the putin regime, how to poke, them how to mess with their voting, with our elections. how to come up with new voting strategies. now, i can imagine what the russian opposition will do. they're just completely decapitated, eviscerated, you know, take your horrible metaphor. >> you knew him. in fact, when you are moving back in 2012. you tweeted that he came to you're going away party, he tried to convince you not to

return to the united states. he said russia is just getting interesting. >> yeah. i mean, this is the thing, in some ways he was so on russian because of how optimistic he was. and how optimistic people around him were. in for all of us that knew him, i realized yesterday just how infectious that optimism was. people here at the munich security conference, well completely shocked and devastated by the news that navalny had been killed, said, you know, where we surprised? we all knew this was coming. i have to say, i didn't think it was coming. i think he had convinced us all the way it convinced himself that he would outlive putin. he would be the future after putin. and i think that's what's been so devastating for so many, especially younger russians. he was their future. he was the plan for the day after putin. because that they will come eventually, but now, it's unclear what that they will look like. >> that's a little of alexei's optimist him getting through to

you. that they will come eventually. sad day for the world, sorry for the russian people. and i know -- >> but he will die. >> that is true. you are right. you are an optimist. >> that's it. >> but i know this affect you personally, so i thank you for being here, and thank you for your excellent reporting on this issue and other reporting as you would have talked about in the last few months. i hope my viewers follow you and read the things that you do. julia ioffe is a washington correspondent for puck news. still ahead, today's meeting of the velshi banned book club is going. hollywood -- a new short, the abc's of book banning looks at who's hurt most by book bans. as we often discuss, it's the children. i'll be joined by two people featured in the film who are likely familiar to velshi banned book club members. george m. johnson, author of the first ever velshi banned book club feature, the award winning all boys aren't blue, and 101 year old grace lin, who was just 100 less time i

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i have to give it to the ultraconservative pro- censorship organizations like moms for liberty. they've successfully made banning books a national issue. in these days, and everyone is paying attention to it. even hollywood. the two academy award-nominated documentary, short film, the abc's and book banning, masterfully plays tribute to the important books that i faced calls for bin across the nation. running just under half an hour, the abc's of book banning highlights the beautiful language and critical topics tackled in banned literature like all boys aren't blue, by george m. johnson. the documentary makes clear, just how important those books are to readers. just how absurd the nature of book bans are, and why, why

access to those titles is so critical. perhaps most importantly, the abc's of book manning emotionally underscores exactly who is most affected by the book bans. schoolchildren. >> everyone deserves to have these beautiful books to read. to learn. et cetera. they teach them about culture, what they can be, if they want to be, what they want to be, they should be able to be what they want to be. but they can't be without knowing what it means. >> i like also learning about stuff. so i can get smarter for every time i need to know stuff about stuff. i just like being imaginative, and also, i like learning. >> there's another voice featured prominently in the abc's of book banning.

one that members of the velshi banned book club might recognize. grace lin. we first learned about 101 year old when she gave a salient warning at a martin county school board meeting in florida. with a handmade quilt featuring the covers of popular banned books. >> my husband was killed in action in world war ii. defending our democracy, constitution, and freedoms. one of the freedoms that the not seize crossed was the freedom to read the books they banned. they stopped the free press. band and burned books. the freedom to read, which is protected by the first amendment, is our essential

right and duty of our democracy. even so, it is continually under attack by both the public and private groups. banned books and burning books are the same. both are done for the same reason. fear of knowledge. fear is not freedom. i fear is not liberty. fear is control. >> grace lynn knows what these children don't yet understand, that limiting access to literature doesn't just cheat them of knowledge and squash the creativity and stifle that growth, it actually threatens the future of their country. of our country. right after the break, i am joined by two people who are long-standing velshi banned book members, and are heavily featured in that documentary. the abc's of admitting. a literary activist, grace

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i'm daniel lurie matand i've spent my careeron. fighting poverty, helping people right here in san francisco. i'm also a father raising two kids in the city. deeply concerned that city hall is allowing crime and lawlessness to spread. now we can do something about it by voting yes on prop e. a common sense solution that ensures we use community safety cameras to catch repeat offenders and hold them accountable. vote yes on e. today's meeting of the velshi banned book club is officially underway, and i am thrilled to be joined again by grace lynn, the 101 activist, fighting against book bans, and george m. johnson, author of all boys aren't blue, the first ever

velshi banned book club feature. grace and george are featured in the academy award-nominated documentary short film the abc's of book banning. welcome to all of you. grace, i mean apologized you off the front, generally, impolite to talk about peoples age all of the time. but you are just a spring check and when we first met you, your hundred years old. your hundred and one, where you talk to you every year about book banning. because since we featured you at the school board speech went viral, book banning efforts have only increased. and efforts to stop and have also increased. has your advice changed in the last year since we last talked? >> first of all, let me thank you for having me on. and thank you for the work you do for us. i am not stopping. i'm only a little over 101 now.

and, believe me, i also want to tell you, it was thrilling for me to have met your other guest, george. >> thrilling for us to, george. and you, the point of having grace here is to shame you into thinking, you gotta -- many, many years of doing this. you are the first feature. you're also, to some degree, the poster child for when people talk about banned books. both good and bad. talk to me about this. because in the break, we were saying, groups like moms for liberty, i'm almost a supporter of theirs. because they have made this such a big issue, and they've made the rest of us, like grace as well, understand this is our fight. and we've got to fight it. >> yeah, it's unfortunate. i always think what the moms for liberty, big group, not intelligent, very well organized. and if you're well organized, but uninformed, you can create a lot of chaos.

and a lot of damage in the country. i think that's what we're witnessing. they clearly haven't even read my book. they haven't read most of these books. how do you haven't read it? unlike because they're more upset about what it said about thomas jefferson in chapter five then what happened in chapter 17. so i know they didn't get to chapter five. so, realistically, this is a fight over ideology. it's not a fight about banned books. it is all interconnected. and i think we have to do a better job of not fighting these issues in silos, lgbtq, rates but meaning, they're all tied together. they're all a part of a system to make us assimilate into white supremacy that they feel like they're losing a grip on. >> you made this point, grace, when we last talked. you talked about how this influences kids who are either reflected in these books or get to read these books. and that's where this documentary is about. that kids deserve to be honored for who they are. and they deserve to read about other kids in other stories in

order to become better citizens, more empathetic, and better people. >> and understanding those children around them that are a little different. and giving them the truth early on, these children are brilliant. you just heard it. it's amazing, to me, how this can ever have happened. you just featured what happened in russia, that's what will happen here if people don't wake up. and they can, i don't care if it's the moms for liberty's, i make myself the mother of liberty. also, i do believe that all people are equal. we all have one creator.

and i won't say male or female. a creator and we needed the lgbtq people, look at they've done for us. look over the years. we there so talented. and we have to keep them back or people who are actually stupid. let me think sheila nevins, who picked up what i had done to the school board. >> yeah. >> we wish we could've had she like here, actually. as part of the conversation. the great thing about this documentary is the conversations that have had with these kids. i just want them all to run the country. starting now, george. some of the most powerful moments in the documentary show kids explaining some of the

stories. and some of it's not for personal experience, there's a short clip of a child explaining tangle makes three. which is an award-winning book about, true story, about two male penguins at the central park zoo that adopted an orphan to penguin. which has caused a great deal of kerfuffle. listen to the clip for the movie. >> it's about to penguins who are gay with each other, and even though they had their differences from the other penguins, they could still have a child, take care of it. they could do pretty much everything but lay an egg. i just don't understand, because there are still people. they're still human. it's like a turned into a werewolf once there gay or lesbian or trans. >> it's so obvious to that nine-

year-old kid, so obvious to that nine role kid, but it's not obvious because that's exactly the book, along with yours, all that these groups target. and say this is going to wreck society. two boy penguins had raising a small child penguin. >> again, it's just a sad day. because kids come to the world innocent. and then adults shape weather world starts to look like. so we're watching a kid speaking from a place of innocence, who's just learning an understanding, but is recognizing this is what the real world looks like. two men can have a child. two women can have a child. some of my classmates parents are two men or two women or trans. that's the world i live in. so, i'm just reading a book that reflects other people, and other stories and other dynamics of a world that i already live in. and i think what we're fighting

against is this false narrative that our books are introducing to these topics. it's very clear that that young boy already had an understanding of the world he lived. in and the book was helping to shape the understanding even better. so, it's just a resource for what he's already experiencing in the world. my book is just a resource for what teens are already going through in the world. the false narrative that these things are introducing them to heavy topics is just a lie. and these books are necessary for them because sometimes that is the only entry point into the harvard world that many of these kids are living in, that they're not talking to the parent about. >> a conversation you and i had when we first met. the two have you come from very different experiences, and you're fighting the same fight, you're making america in our democracy safer. and better for all of us. i honor you both, are very, very first velshi banned book

club feature author george m. johnson, author of all boys aren't blue. and grace, we're booking you for just shortly after your 102nd birthday, so we can make this an annual thing. grace lynn, an activist who has been doing this all her life, and it's going to continue to fight for your right to read in for your children to read what you choose. not with the government, now the school board chooses. thank you both for being here. that does it for me catch ridicule for tomorrow from 10 am to noon, eastern. don't get velshi is available as a podcast, you can follow in listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. stay right where you are, the katie phang show starts right now. katie phang show starts ri now. i'm katie phang, live from telemundo studios, miami, florida. here is the week that was. >> why am i back? you maybe ask yourselves. it's a very reasonable question. i have committed a lot of