club feature author george m. johnson, author of all boys aren't blue. and grace, we're booking you for just shortly after your 102nd birthday, so we can make this an annual thing. grace lynn, an activist who has been doing this all her life, and it's going to continue to fight for your right to read in for your children to read what you choose. not with the government, now the school board chooses. thank you both for being here. that does it for me catch ridicule for tomorrow from 10 am to noon, eastern. don't get velshi is available as a podcast, you can follow in listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. stay right where you are, the katie phang show starts right now. katie phang show starts ri now. i'm katie phang, live from telemundo studios, miami, florida. here is the week that was. >> why am i back? you maybe ask yourselves. it's a very reasonable question. i have committed a lot of

crimes. >> the republican-led house will not be jammed or forced into passing a foreign aid bill that was opposed by most republican senators. it does nothing to secure our own border. >> democrat, tom susie, the winner of the special election in new york. he will replace george santos. >> you can try to put lipstick on this, paid it is still a pig. this is a terrible impeachment. >> at least one person was killed and up to 15 injured after a shooting at a parade celebrating the chiefs second straight super bowl win. >> parades, rallies, schools, movies, it seems like almost nothing is sacred. >> alexei navalny, at the jailed opposition leader and main vladimir putin critic has died. >> they will be punished for what they have done with our country, with my family and with my husband. >> you are confused, you think i'm on trial. these people are on trial for trying to steal an election in

2020. i'm not on trial, no matter how hard you try to put me on trial. >> i don't need anything from a man, a man is not a plan, a man is a companion. the only man who has ever flip by bills completely is my daddy. that is a small taste of the fire that d.a. fani willis brought to the witness stand on thursday as she testified in the evidentiary hearing to disqualify the prosecuting attorney in georgia rico case. what will the presiding judge scott mcafee to now? we've got the latest on what's next. >> a good saturday to you. all we begin today's show with donald trump taking a massive body blow, not only to his so- called real estate empire, but to his wallet as well. yesterday the judge in and york city fraud trial order the former president to pay $453

million in interest, an amount new york attorney general, sing day. that is until the judgment -- justice engoron ruling that donald trump is barred from running any businesses or applying for bank loans in the state of new york for three years. trump predictably bashing the ruling, calling it a fine for doing a perfect job. we this is what letitia james had to say after the release of the 92 page ruling. >> today we prove that no one is above the law. no matter how rich, powerful, or politically connected you are. everyone must play by the same rules. >> joining me now, glenn kirschner, former federal prosecutor, msnbc legal analyst and host of the justice matters podcast.

glenn, my friend, good to see you. even i have seen it multi-page rulings in our lives but this one has a decent price tag on it. let's start with the ruling from justice engoron. what are your two top line takeaways? well, katie, among the top line takeaways is, i think we have to look at the trajectory that donald trump's civil trials have been on. he started by losing a 5 million dollar judgment. then he lost an 83 million dollar judgment. now he's lost more than 450 million dollar judgment, and as you say, he is barred from doing business in new york for a number of years. here is the thing. as bad as all of that is, lady justice is just getting warmed up because next up for donald trump is his first criminal trial, then he has four criminal trials stacked up. it is impossible to see how he survives politically, how he survives financially and i think you know, all of this is just donald trump slowly being

taken out of the system for the civil fraud, the civil wrongs, and the crimes he has alleged to have committed. >> you know, glenn, i always say, don't sleep on the civil cases because even though people think that the private ones, -- sometimes it's the civil cases that pack the biggest wallop. before i move on from this case, i want to ask you about the factual findings. when you look at this 92 page ruling, glenn, the way that the justice set it up was procedural history, how did we get here? then he went into his factual findings. his determinations about the witnesses credibility, for example. then he moved on into the legal arguments before he reached his ultimate conclusion. let's focus on michael cohen. we know that the new york d.a., the manhattan d.a.'s office is going to go to trial next month. michael cohen is going to be a key witness. what are your thoughts about those findings about michael cohen's credibility? do you think it will pay play a factor into the trial next

month? >> yeah, no case is a pellet proof. we all know that virtually every significant loss, whether in the civil setting or criminal trial, it ends up getting appealed. but when you work your way through judge engoron's findings and fact -- conclusions of law, it feels like donald trump can impaled this judgment. but i would be surprised if he won any relief on appeal. and listen, michael cohen's testimony was relied upon in this trial. i would call that important foreshadowing for what is to come. soon to come, beginning march 25th, the first criminal prosecution of donald trump for his attempt to interfere in the 2016 presidential election by making hush money payments. and then, by falsifying business records to cover up the nature of the hush money payments. michael cohen will be a star witness and importantly he will be bolstered considerably by an

audio recording of the defendant, donald trump, talking about the very criminal scheme for which donald trump is on trial. so again, this is some important foreshadowing and i very much look forward to this first criminal prosecution kicking off in march. >> reporter: when, let's put our old prosecutors hat back on. i want you to be d.a. alvin bragg, tell me about the kind of jury you are going to be looking for when you do the jury selection process on march 25th. >> i will look for jurors who can decide the case fairly and impartially based only on the evidence they see introduced during the course of the trial. not based on anything they may know about these charges, anything they may know about donald trump or any political feelings or affiliation or ideologies they may have. every juror is likely to have some idea of who donald trump is and what he's done.

every voter is likely to have some ideological beliefs, even if they're not active in politics. maybe all they do is vote, maybe they don't even vote. the key is, when they are going through jury selection, what we call voir dire, importantly, jurors are placed under oath before they start answering questions during jury selection. in my experience, jurors generally take it deadly seriously and they try to be truthful, accurate and forthcoming. they will have to say, listen i can put all of my personal feelings aside. i can put aside anything i might know about donald trump and the crimes he alleged to commit, and i promise, i swear under oath that i can decide this case based only on the evidence i see introduced during the course of the trial. i think alvin bragg and his prosecutors will be able to see a fair and impartial jury and donald trump is going to get his fair trial. >> glenn, let's stick with this, before i have to let you, go let stick with the jury selection issue. you and i both, no as trial lawyers, jury selection

sometimes wins the case for you. it may not even matter what ends up going on, depending upon the jurors that you picked. do you look for jurors that are going to be kind of focusing on the issues involving the fact that this hush money payment was made? maybe there's some morality implications going on with the former president of the united states? are you looking for somebody who understands maybe the more nuanced issues that come with business records and the idea that the falsification of them or the felonies that are at issues with this case? >> great question, katie, i've always said you cannot win a case injury selection, but you can surely loser case injuries election. so if you have a science heavy case, some prosecutors, some defense attorneys want scientists on the jury. some don't want scientists on the jury. i think what you want is a fully informed juror. regardless of what the jurors background is, whether they have a background of business in business records or not. i don't think it's a one-size-

fits-all proposition. we can say, all business people are either good or either bat. each one you have to take on their own merits. when he looked him in the eye during the jury selection, you have to quickly assess based on what they're saying and how they're saying it, their demeanor, whether you think they are going to give the prosecutors a fair shake on the evidence, and whether you think they're gonna give the defendant a fair shake on the evidence. and i think that is what the parties are going to be looking for as they go through the jury selection process. >> reporter: there is a legal science to, it as you and i know, and there is whether or not your bs meter is going off when they're answering you. glenn kirschner, thank you for getting us started today. my friend, i always love to have you here because justice matters. thanks for being here. >> reporter: still to come on the katie phang show. last woman standing, trump's last remaining challenger, nikki haley, warning those that will actually listen that donald trump will try to use the rnc as a personal piggy bank if he's reelected. we will look ahead to their

face off in south carolina next week. i have got georgia on my mind. the sky-high states for fulton county d.a., fani willis, and why her father's testimony just might be the key to her winning the battle before the war. that's up next. aaaaaah. got it. earning on that éclair. don't touch it, don't touch it yet. let me get the big one. nope. -this one? -nope. -this one? -yes. no. what? the big one. they're all the same size. wait! lemme get 'em all. i'm gonna get 'em all! earn big with chase freedom unlimited. how do you cashback? chase. make more of what's yours. [cough] honey... honey. nyquil severe honey. powerful cold and flu relief with a dreamy honey taste nyquil honey,

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so it was a courtroom scene straight out of any legal drama. this week, all eyes once again on fulton county. this time it was the, eight fani willis, in the watson's hot seat as she defended herself against this misconduct allegation over a former relationship with special prosecutor, nathan wade. the stakes could not have been higher. if the defense carries its burden and producer allegations d.a. fani willis along with their entire office would be disqualified from prosecuting the georgia election interference case against former president, donald, trump and his associates. even worse, the charges could possibly be tossed altogether. joining me now, anna, our fulton county correspondent at lawfare and my fellow friend that i was joins me in atlanta and vice versa when there is

something going on in fulton county. anna, it's good to see you. let's emphasize this because every time that i did tv this week i wanted to talk about the law. sometimes, with the salaciousness of what's going, on that gets lost. what is the legal standard and to be able to disqualify prosecutor in the state of georgia? when >> it, right katie, the legal standard has gotten lost amongst all the mudslinging that we saw in court this week. but it is really important for people to understand what the standard is here. it is that there is an actual conflict. it's not enough to show an appearance of impropriety under georgia law, what the defense has to show here to meet their burden of the disqualifying fani willis means that they have to show that her relationship with nathan wade caused or gave rise to personal or financial interest that gave her a kind of interest or incentive in convicting trump and others.

so i think that what they needed to show here this week is that the very least, either weight and willis comingled their assets or shared income, or they needed to show that these vacations that they took together, that weighed allegedly pay for, it was something that was not reimbursed and that therefore fani willis benefited from those vacations financially. and it amounted to a kickback scheme of sorts. i do not think, however, that the defense ultimately met that burden. there was some testimony from fani willis and nathan wade under oath in which they said that fani willis did reimburse those trips in cash and that the defense also failed to show that there was any sharing of assets for income. based on what we've seen so far, i don't think they have meant that actual conflict standard. although, there has been some talk that it's possible the

judge mcafee could potentially apply a lower standard of appearance of impropriety. i'm a bit skeptical that he will do that, however. >> and, i want to talk about something that has not been raised very much in the last 24 hours. because it just happened yesterday afternoon. the cross examination of terrence bradley, who was the former divorce lawyer for nathan wade. as we, know the attorney-client privilege issues kicked in, it was a whole argument legally about whether there was fraud perpetrated in. that it could pierced the attorney client privilege, all the confidential communications come out. judge mcafee ruled no, there was no fraud, it didn't meet the legal standards to be able to do. that that's not what i want to ask you. i want to ask you about the cross examination by the state of georgia. they went hard against terrence bradley, bringing up the allegations that he sexually assaulted a law firm employee at the law firm that he had worked at with, nathan wade. your thoughts about that

strategy? do you think that it was affective or do you think that maybe it was an overstep? when >> it could have been an overstep, katie, i'm of two minds of it. remember, earlier this proceeding, judge mcafee did indicate that he wanted to have a conversation with terrence bradley and private about the communications that terrence broadly said that he had with nathan wade about his relationship with fani willis, and the crucial question of when the relationship started. there is a factual dispute because fani willis and nathan wade say that it started in 2022, after he was appointed. whereas the defense council represented that it started in 2019. and parents bradley seems to potentially have knowledge of when the start of the relationship was that he had through communications with nathan wade that he said was part of privilege discussions related to nathan wades divorce. but what this cross-examination

elicited from parents bradley, it may judge mcafee really wonder if terrence bradley had been fully forthcoming in his testimony about those conversations being privileged. so this impeachment of terrence bradley on the sexual assault allegations by the state may judge mcafee ultimately say that he wanted to have further conversations with terrence broadly about whether his other conversations with nathan wade were in fact privileged. so that could really come back to bite the prosecution if it turns out that terrence bradley has some kind of information that is inconsistent with what the prosecution has put forward. with that said, however, it could be the case that the state thinks that terrence bradley, whatever information he has and is going to give judge mcafee, -- they might be concerned that he is not being

honest about that information. and so they want to impeach his credibility by bringing up the fact that he had a falling out with nathan wade because of the circumstances surrounding this alleged sexual assault. so it could come back to bite the prosecution or it could be affective, it really all just depends on what happens in the private conversation between judge mcafee and terrence bradley. >> reporter: anna, i have to let you go sadly, i want to come back soon so we can bring it down further. but for our viewers, i will note that the prosecutor, on behalf of the state of georgia, cross examination of terrence bradley made it clear the turns bradley was a liar, thereby suggesting that his credibility is shot. and up our from lawfare, thank you for being here. for those of you, her encyclopedias are. there were always watching you, in a, to see if they are there. thanks for being there. we're coming up after the, break it stage of the, groundhog day, whatever you want to go. at the clock is ticking once again on the latest funding fight on capitol hill.

democratic congressman, eric swalwell joins me next on such a breakdown in what exactly lawmakers from his party are doing to avoid yet another living government shutdown. don't go anywhere. go anywhere. head & shoulders bare clinically proven dandruff protection with just 9 essential ingredients no sulfates, no silicones, no dyes. dandruff protection, minimal ingredients. job done. ♪ ♪

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that was chilling. that was a russian opposition leader, alexei navalny, yearly foreshadowing his death in a cnn interview. russian authorities are claiming that vladimir putin's most prominent critic has reportedly died in jail following his years long battle against the kremlin that led to his arrest, his prosecution, a poisoning attempt that he survived and ultimately what may have been his life ending jail sentence. as global leaders decry at this news, republican front runner, donald trump, remained conspicuously silent. something my next guest pointed out, tweeting in part, let navalny's death to be a warning to america. if returned to power, donald trump will -- his opponents -- forecast, he has already told us this. many may onset is congressman eric swalwell of california, the member of health of the judiciary and homeland security committee. 's -- second impeachment trial of former president, donald trump. thank you so much for being

here, congressman. i am speechless at what you and i just watched. we were both speechless. talk about why when, you, i and others say that we're not being hyperbolic about what donald trump is promising america should he get a second term that it is real. that there is a reason why we keep on standing every day and bringing these alarm bells. >> you and i look at a dictator like vladimir putin and we see a ruthless man. donald trump sees a mirror. he sees a role model. and he likes putin. putin likes donald trump, and donald trump says he will go on this retribution tour, he will be a dictator when he comes into office. in fact, some have said that he is now his supporters are saying that he is navalny -- when in fact it's not a coincidental that in the same week that donald trump invited russia to attack a nato, that mike johnson refuses to pass

the senate ukraine aid and a journalist, tucker carlson, goes over an interviews putin and doesn't ask him at all about navalny. it's not a coincidence, it is a greenlight that putin saw and it's just a question now of do we care? >> we've heard directly from volodymyr zelenskyy about what his people are suffering because of the ruthlessness you talk about with vladimir putin. do you think putin is now emboldened when he sees the chaos that is this 118th congress? the fact that aid cannot be agreed upon and the fact that the united states looks like it's just going to stand aside? you have donald trump saying that nato doesn't really have any value or benefit the united states? >> this is a tipping point right now for ukraine. we just saw today that they are retreating from an area that they have taken over because they were about to be encircled. so ukrainian members of parliament or reaching out to me as recently as yesterday

asking, are you really going to walk away from this? are you not going to find? us what happened is that if you're on the front lines, the line of contact, in the donbas, you don't have bullets, you don't have water, you don't have first aid kits, you know, morale breaks down. and we're willing to fight for the country but they need the resources. we can't fool ourselves, the fight will come to us if ukraine falls. >> reporter: so the aid will be held hostage by republicans in the house, and part of the problem is that they can't seem to walk and chew gum at the same time while we're dealing with aid package is not only to ukraine and israel but other nations. we're looking, as americans, out another looming government shutdown on march 1st. these temporary band-aids are a problem, they are just band- aids on a hemorrhaging wound. march 1st is right around the corner. is going to be yet another continued resolution? >> we are going crisis to crisis. it's not that they can't walk into, bomb they can, they just

follow trump at the same time. so they have to do with donald trump wants them to do, they are a law firm in the house that just works for one, donald trump. he doesn't want funding for ukraine, he wants to sabotage the border, doesn't want us to fund the governmental because they want to shut down the government because they think it makes biden look bad. masochist laid off its best scientists because they don't have certainty in their funding. so, yes what hakeem jeffries have shown, what democrats have shown, what joe biden has shown is competence that we want to get get things done. we want to govern, they want to ruin it. >> you've talked to me before about competence versus chaos and what it could deliver to the american people. is that what is at stake? we talk and journalism terms about, let's not focus on the odds because these polls, they come and go, and the odds can be different, but the stakes are really counting. is that the same thing that's happening right now in d.c.?

>> yes, and that is why we need to make this upcoming election about this. it's not about to individuals, i'll take the individual who hacked -- 91 felony. counts it's not about to individuals it is about the idea of competence versus chaos. or even freedom versus fascism. if we make it about those ideas, and what they mean and our daily lives, we are going to win. >> congressman, i always like to remind people that you choose to serve as a public servant, you give up for so much to be able to travel from california to d.c.. one of the things you also do is you actually expose yourself to personal harm on days like january 6th. it has been a crazy legal week as it is every week. i joke that we're drinking from legal firehouses. what got lost in the shuffle this week? is your lawsuit? talk about what happened? >> i brought a suit with capitol hill police officers against dole trump for his role in january 6th, inciting the mob, aiming them at the

capitol. we won in the federal district court when trump claimed immunity. we won in the court of appeals with a panel of judges unanimously, republican appointed and democratic appointed judges. trump took it to the supreme court and this week he dropped the lawsuit. so now we have a date with the judge coming up in a few weeks to set the trial schedule and we will go to discovery and depositions soon. what we're seeing here whether it is my case or e. jean carroll's case in new york or in the ford front felony cases, this is a tapestry of accountability that is finally coming together. in the bigger sense, it's stitched together as a security blanket for the rule of law in our tomorrow see. >> reporter: less than a minute, i have to ask, you have a senior james comer has gone? suddenly, this, week after the news came out that the informant that the house gop was relying so much upon for the biden impeachment push, it was indicted. it was indicted by the feds for lying about bribes that were made to hunter biden and joe biden.

it is all a lie and then james comer suddenly now decided that it's not the guy we were gonna hang your head on. >> they've got nothing. they have nothing. this is a continuation of the insurrection. they've never accepted biden is the president, now they're trying to impeach, him sabotage the border. the best thing we can do is lean and, play on their side of the field, go on offense, don't kind of the. bed we have nothing to hide. >> some of your colleagues got lucky that they didn't get frankly indicted for their roles on what was happening on january 6th. eric swalwell, thank you for joining us in miami. anytime you want to come, here are welcome to have. you think you for being here. coming up next after the break, haley's last stand. the primary face-off in south carolina that could redetermine the fate of nikki haley's languishing bid for the white house. plus, we buy verona. we go inside trump's -- row no daniel'd, what her reported departure means for the future of republicans up and down that

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between multiple multi dollar verdicts and a congress that is so disorganized, as we heard from congressman swalwell, they collectively threw up their hands, took a vacation. but we are still on the road to a presidential election that is a little over nine months away. let's jump right into it. joining me now, christina greer, associate professor of political science at fordham university. the author of both ethnics, race, immigration, the pursuit of the american dream. susan del percio, republican strategist at an msnbc political -- win two of the smartest ladies i. no susan, i want to start with, you you predicted on my show when florida governor, ron desantis, was going to bow out of this race. i am a fan of determination,

just like all of us are on this panel. what is nikki haley going to wave the white flag? she's going to be hemorrhaging money right now and no one predicts that she's even going to win her own state. >> i don't think she's hemorrhaging money. that is the thing. i think she has some deep pockets behind her. and that is the only reason why she will continue to run. if she can't afford to run she watches through her name out there because she won't have an apparatus and that just changes the narrative. she has a lot of chris christie supporters and donors. she has a couple billionaire class folks. they are behind her they want her in until super tuesday and feel that it's important. she will have enough money to be there. i think she will. because she has a message that may not be sinking in with maga republicans. but it is certainly sinking in in donald trump's head and he just can't take it. i think he's just getting more and more aggravated in between the court cases and nikki haley and him having to campaign.

that may just be enough to deflate donald trump into not becoming a candlelit candidate. >> my mama taught, me if you don't have nothing nice to say. don't say anything at all. i'm gonna move. on christina, rnc chair, ronna mcdaniel is stepping down from her position. she is also donald trump's daughter in law, excuse, me donald trump's daughter-in-law is laura trump. she is co-chairing the committee. laura trump is a personal, trader a -- attempted country music singer, spearheaded the women for trump initiative. christina, what's going on here? make it make sense because you and i both know she doesn't have the experience to head up the rnc. when it really annoys me is the hypocrisy of the gop. they are screaming about nepotism on the side of the biden family, and, yet isn't this a trump specialty? why don't we get everybody a job and make everybody have money? >> katie, it's more sinister than that. i think it goes back to what congresswoman swalwell was saying the previous segment, which is that donald trump

keeps telling us what he wants to do for his second term. and what he wants to do is fill the administration with -- family members. just like dictators do. and so it is actually much more insidious than just putting an unqualified daughter-in-law in as the head of the party, it is really surrounding himself with people who won't be accountable, won't have stopgaps, if we remember, you know, he never had abortive directors. it was just him and his kids. they were running russia. the art of the, steal smash-and- grab, sort of taking people's money and never paying them back. so it seems like, oh this is just what he does, he's putting another unqualified kid in charge of lots of money and power. but it's actually much more scary and sinister than just putting unqualified lauryn charge of the rnc. >> susan, new reporting that got lost in the litany of trump legal this week, donald trump telling allies that he supports a 16-week abortion ban with three exceptions in cases of rape or incest or to save the life of the mother, which is much less restrictive than

those six-week fetal heartbeat laws that have been supported and put into effect by most if not all of the republican party. why? now susan, i mcraven enough to believe that he is trying to do this to some independents and maybe some non maga republicans to try to get their votes. >> absolutely right, katie. he is looking at it now into more of a general election race then a -- and he knows that a six-week ban is basically and all right out ban on abortion. so i think he's trying to make that appeal. it is something now where he's getting a little hesitant on it because he knows that he can't win with either side on that. we saw what happened in virginia when governor youngkin tried to make a 15-week ban, the central campaign issue. he went down spectacularly. >> christina, i need to ask you about that new york a.g. civil fraud verdict. it is huge. it is huge by any standard.

i, mean 400 and $70 million and counting, literally, as we're sitting here. the interest is occurring. it goes straight at the heart of donald trump. this persona that he tries so fiercely to protect that he is this man, the myth, the business legend. but we all know that is not true. so how is this going to resonate if at all with his supporters? do that even care? i thought they would care about felony indictments, but they don't. are they going to care about this? >> no, katie, his supporters don't care about alleged rape charges, they don't care about his behavior, it'll care how he talks about groups of color or immigrants or anyone in need or marginalized. but shout out to attorney general letitia james who has remained unbothered by his personal attacks. she has been very clear, steadfast and steady to say, we have a job to do, she is representing the state of new york. she has said very clearly from day one, this man cannot grift the citizens of the state of new york. she has put forward a case and

millions of dollars later, donald trump has to pay the piper. i don't think there is anyone in new york who believes the donald trump will ever pay this money. he has a long history of no repaying his debts. so we will see, the tally is going up by the day. 400 something million, i don't know what -- e. jean carroll being one of, them will ever see $1 from donald trump. that is just never been his m.o.. he hasn't always been able to finagle his way out of it somehow. we'll see how long he drags it out before he pays people back. >> i believe he's going to pay. because i believe in the rule of law. christina greer, thank you so much for being here, you guys are fabulous. thanks. >> thanks, katie. >> reporter: this black history month, msnbc correspondent, jermaine lee, explores the story of black america's fight to be made whole and a special podcast series called into america presents, uncounted millions, the power of reparations. jermaine speaks with

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i would like putin and all of his staff, everybody around him, his friends, i want them to know that they will be punished for what they have done with our country, with my family, and with my husband. they will be brought to justice. >> alexei navalny's wife, yulia novel naya, offering searing remarks on friday during her surprise appearance at the munich security conference shortly after russian authorities announced the death of her husband. navalny's death has spurred international outrage towards russian president, vladimir putin, and the kremlin as they

have in recent years initiated in unprecedented and deadly crackdown on any type of dissent. this morning, a spokesperson for alexei navalny is claiming that he was murdered and demanding the immediate release of his body from the ruston investigative committee. joining me now for more is dr. nola haynes, national security and foreign policy expert as well as professor at georgetown university. dr. haynes, part of the reason why we wanted to have you on today's sometimes it gets lost on how important americans need to have an emphasis on paying attention to what's going on overseas. we have a lot going on here, but i wanted you to come here and explain why, as we heard also from congressman, eric swalwell a few blocks ago, why vladimir putin is as dangerous a threat to america as he is currently posing to not only europeans but, frankly, the rest of europe. >> thank you so much, katie,

it's wonderful to be here. that is a great question. the connection between foreign policy and national security are very real. in a sense of russia, this is a question i get asked a lot. why do we care? why should we care? because right now we are in a very real tense battle between democracy and authoritarianism. they are literally on opposite sides of the seesaw. that is what we are. it is one type of way of living her life versus another way of living your life. that includes being subjected to the state. and why it matters is because people are aligning with the way that trump and his authoritarianism thinking -- it's not just a lofty ideal. it is right around the corner. it is right around the next election. so what is happening in russia, let's put aside ukraine, because that also affects us here to. but let's put that aside for a moment and let's just talk about what happens if democracy fails in this country.

the freedoms that we enjoy, they may be imperfect, but they will completely evaporate. katie, i have to say, for people that look like us, we won't farewell in authoritarian regimes. >> that is totally true. i want to say, alexei navalny, the most prominent critic of russian president, vladimir putin and the kremlin. what is left now of the opposition movement now that navalny according to his family has been murdered? >> well, first point is that alexei navalny died compatriot for his country and democracy. first and foremost. secondly, this is a spark. this is a spark in a very old country like russia. i want to contextualize this sort of symbolism of what navalny represents for the opposition in russia. in a very old culture, there is symbolism, martyrs, they mean a great deal. russia can be dated all the way back to 882.

that is how old this place is. while he lost his life, and keep in mind, he knew what happened when he left germany, he decided to go back to russia. so this spark, this symbolism, it is perhaps what will be getting more russians involved under the threat of the state, which they're facing as we speak. people who are mourning the loss of navalny, they are being rounded up interested, and the entire world is seeing it, and secondly, navalny was not the only opposition leader. there are other opposition leaders that are also in jail. this movement, while navalny was definitely the global face of it, he was not alone. there are still opposition leaders that are still in jail right now. >> to your point, doctor, right now the russian monitoring group has reported at least 340 people have been detained across russia navalny memorial rallies taking place right now. the majority of the arrests

happening in st. petersburg. we've heard from president biden, from other world leaders, what they need to do to be able to make sure that there is accountability for the deck of alexei navalny? >> that's a great question. it's part of the difficulty. when you have a regime, there's no accountability, when there's one person who wants to be king and everyone else is a subject, it is really challenging to get that person to operate within the international system of norms. there are many people who will push back and say that technically there is not a viable international system, but there are levers that can be pulled. the thing is, will vladimir putin even pay attention to the icc? possibly charging him with crimes? it is about the fact that authoritarians, dictators, they have nearly absolute power. and this is the problem. how would he be held accountable? well, the best thing to say is

to vote. because voting is coming up in russia and some people say that this is why navalny died, because he was the opposition leader that stood out and people wanted to have him on the ballot also. so all of putin's real competition is completely obliterated with navalny off the ballot. so this is a unique situation. how will he be held accountable? i don't know. but i want to go back to ukraine for a second. it is imperative for vladimir putin to be stopped here. he cannot win. ukraine has to win. because if he does when he will keep going and he's been talking a lot about poland. it makes me very nervous. in many ways, since the beginning of this thing, everyone said this is very reminiscent of 1939. and it is. and that is the scary part. that is what is at stake, not just for the u.s. but the entire world. this is not a game. >> reporter: dr. nola haynes, thank you for being here to

share your insight and to educate us. it's so important. thank you so much. >> thank you. >> reporter: and thanks to all of you for joining us today. you can catch me back here next saturday at noon eastern. remember to follow us on social media using the handle, at katie phang show. you can catch clips of the show on youtube and you can listen to every episode of the katie phang show as a podcast for free. scan that q r code you see on your screen to follow now. don't go anywhere, msnbc reports with alex witt is coming up next.

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a very good eye. welcome to alex witt reports. breaking this hour, nbc news with an exclusive interview today with vice president kamala harris on her reaction to the death of russian opposition leader alexei navalny. harris attending this weekend's munich security conference and pledging the u.s. will work to verify the cause of navalny's death while in president and russia. and condemning donald trump's comments he would encourage the attack on a nato country. the vice president speaking with nbc's chief foreign affairs correspondent. >> we know that putin is responsible and it just speaks

to