parole. for the mengel family who are raising kevin's children, there was finally some justice and knowing morgan would remain behind bars, forever. >> i want her to be in jail for the rest of her life. i want her to know that i will be there for when her daughter walks down the aisle. i'll be there when her daughter has a baby. i'll be there when her sons have meet their wives and graduate from high school. i will get to see all of that, and she's not, she's in hell. and she's going to live this way for the rest of her life. >> that's all for this issue of dateline. i'm craig melvin. thanks for watching. for watch. good morning. welcome to this sunday edition of morning joe: weekend. it was another fast-moving week of news. here are some of the key

conversations you might have missed. >> the wall street journal, the editorial page, talking about how the republican party cynicism on that border cost them the election the other night. an election that was supposed to be split. republicans won this seat by eight points two years ago, they lost by about eight points two nights ago. the new york times carney says on the front of the new york times, and then there were two. the majority is down to two. the wall street journal says, it is going to get worse. it said, maybe, just maybe, swing suburban voters don't like the mega gop. voters know mr. mayorkas impeachment want to look at good at the border. watching the gop house, they see nothing but grandstanding, internal fighting and the inability to put together a majority for anything but

gestures. willie, it just keeps getting worse. they are literally abandoning our israeli allies. they are abandoning our ukrainian allies. basically the west, our nato allies, actually. this is a kick in the teeth to nato. more importantly, it's a punch in the gut to the united states credibility. on top of that, they are sending a message to the communist chinese. go ahead. invade taiwan. house republicans won't be there to support taiwan. it won't give taiwan the funding to send the bill. we haven't even talked about the southern border. wide open, wide open. new york voters of long island knew the other night that there was a solution to an open border. that was a bipartisan bill that the republicans draft, one of the most conservative pump republicans, drafted united states senate. donald trump in the house republican set, let's leave the border opened because there's

the wall street journal says, they are nothing but a house of republican caucus that is interested in empty gestures. >> yeah, these two stories are connected because this morning we're talking about, the funding for ukraine and for israel, for taiwan, our allies, humanitarian aid to the gaza strip, is not being passed the house because the houses, versus the do something on the border. something was done about the border, as we said many times last week. they didn't take that up. here we are, you're right, if you go back, joe, to yesterday's wall street journal editorial page, they wrote, effectively, an open letter to speaker mike johnson saying, this is a moment for deciding. this is a moment for choosing. this is a moment for history. if you don't pass foreign aid to ukraine and israel, history will judge you very unkindly and the journal went on to write that, yes, exactly what you said, the world will be watching, it will send a signal to people, to countries that have bad intentions all over the world. the united states does not step

in to help its allies. this is a big moment. not just in the house of representatives, but for the country. we wait to see what the choice will be. >> right. and for the world. these maga republicans and the house are listening to one man, instead of looking at their duty to their country. donald trump is standing by his recent threats against americas nato allies. less than a week after encouraging russia to attack nato members. but don't quote pay their bills. last night in that south carolina rally, donald trump recounted a conversation he claims to have had as president. >> but he didn't. >> where he told a fellow, world leader, but the united states would not protect them if they were attacked. >> when i came in, i didn't make a speech. and look at the numbers. i said, these numbers are terrible. no one is paying their bills. one of the heads of the country stood up and, that does that mean that if we don't pay the bills, that you're not going to protect us? i said, that's exactly what it

means. exactly. i'm not going to protect you. >> what a clown. i'm not going to protect you. it's not about you, buddy. can he cares is still with us. let's bring in the president of the national action network and politicsnation, reverend al sharp. also president emeritus, council foreigner relations, richard hasse. richard, the remarks are just absolutely preposterous and the message that they sent, again, again, it is a punch in the gut to americas credibility around the world. this is because of one man, donald trump, who republicans, for some reason, still claim to, even though he loses election after election for them. and a couple of maga republicans in the house. there you have it. our reputation, solid across the globe, especially with our nato allies. my gosh, what message does this send to communist chinese? >> this is a one-two punch.

the combination of what congress refuses to do pikas of the house republicans and the speaker. and then donald trump's comments. it is truly corrosive for every alliance, which depends upon reliability and dependence on us. the message to our folks, weather is to, rich, ina north korea, obviously, to putin and russia, that basically tells them that time is on their side. history is breaking their way, finally. it is the worst of all worlds, joe. it strengthens our enemies and it totally undermines the confidence with friends. most of our friends don't have short term alternatives to us. that's an important point. maybe overtime they could become somewhat more self- reliant, but in the short term, this means they are going to be much more vulnerable to the military efforts of others, say ukraine against russia, the tide is already beginning to turn. and then they're going to have to make some really difficult

decisions. do they appease or accommodate a more powerful neighbor? they are just not going to have alternatives to the united states. they're ultimately going to pay that price. donald trump seems to totally, totally misunderstand. he seems to think that all of these relationships, it's only about american giving. he seems totally either unable or unwilling to understand all we have benefited over the last 75 years from the way the world has operated. >> republican senator saying what he did vote for the foreign aid, republican senator eric schmitt of missouri who was 48 shared his frustrations and the passage of foreign aid package in the senate, posting on x, quote, nearly every republican senator under the age of 55 voted no on this america last bill. he added, things are changing, just not fast enough. then, republican senator kevin kramer of north dakota, who is 63, fired back, writing youthful night of a is bliss. but wisdom of h may save the

west. reagan maybe debt, but his doctrine save the world drink less dangerous times. when you think, richard? >> it makes the case that you ought to start making history mandatory in our schools. the idea that someone could say these things, to be so -- not blissfully ignorant, it's recklessly ignorant about the lessons of history, the somehow are immune from consequences. at the united states, essentially, pulls out from the world, they don't think consequences will happen out there? sooner or later, the lessons of history about things happening out there, they will come here. we are not immune. again, there is so much evidence that this kind of isolationism, which is what it is. call it what it is. it's isolationism. the idea that we can insulate ourselves from it is -- it's beyond naive. it's dangerous. you wait for people to stand up and call it out. again, the idea that this is happening at the republican party. joe and i went through this. there are so many decades.

the republican party almost five themselves always against democratic party that was often unwilling to do certain things in the world. when it was raegan or both presidents bush, whatever. to see this, the republican party, in just a couple of years, to such a one 80 on international responsibility is quite stunning. >> well, you can look at individual members that have done this. it really is -- katty kay here, a republican talking -- it sounds -- it sounds like charles lindbergh. i mean -- maybe he was trying to sound a hopeful, you know, a hopeful signal. all he did was scare the heck out of me and a lot of people. senator kramer, i think, speaks for most of the people in the house. i think -- in the senate and a lot of people in the house, a lot of -- actually, most americans, for goodness sake, when he said, we are not just

talking about america on the line here. we're talking about saving the west. saving the west. again, something that they don't teach much up in schools anymore. they talked about ronald reagan and it was reagan and thatcher and pope john paul the second and it was a group of others. you know, because dad, obviously. a lot of cold warriors that teamed up with people across the west and brought down the wall. now, i don't, know maybe they are too young to remember what it was like when there was a soviet union. my gosh, no fair. donald trump embraces the ex kgb agent. embraces the leader of communist china. embraces the leader of communist north korea. it is. it really is so bizarre how things have been changed and now you have these republicans who are turning into

isolationists who want to support authoritarians. >> maybe they don't even need to be old enough to remember the cold war. they just need to be able to remember 9/11 and what happened after that day. that day when the world came and knocked so brutally at america's door. it was the world that rallied. the only time that article five of nato has ever been involved was one other countries came to america's defense and came to america's aid when america needed eight most. just remember that. i think we're right. rich is right. we are entering a weird, new world order that was ushered in by populism a decade ago and around the world. it's not just here in the united states. you see it in parts of europe. you see it in latin america as well. one of the defining characteristics of that populism is nationalism. it's economic nationalism, economic protectionism, military nationalism, christian nationalism. you put that kind of steer together, i think you get what

you are looking at right now in the united states and america. under makeup, wants to turn away from the rest of the world. but we learned on 9/11, that's not an option. you may want to turn away from the world, the world is not going to turn away from you. it will come knocking on your door again. that's when you need your allies. >> we have a lot more to get to this hour. morning joe: weekend continues after a short break. joe: weekes after a short break. ritis sympt. but just ok isn't ok. and i was done settling. if you still have symptoms after a tnf blocker like humira or enbrel, rinvoq is different and may help. rinvoq is a once-daily pill that can rapidly relieve joint pain, stiffness, and swelling in ra and psa. relieve fatigue for some... and stop joint damage. and in psa, can leave skin clear or almost clear. rinvoq can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb. serious infections and blood clots, some fatal; cancers, including lymphoma and skin;

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south carolina, raleigh donald trump also started to propose giving countries foreign aid as a loan before losing his train of thought and drifting into a story about golf. >> lanteaume money, if they can make, it they passed back. if it can make, if they don't have to pick us back. well in the money. put it as a form of a long. why should you just handed over to them?

do it as a form of alone. i do that with athletes. they can't quite -- get, like a professional golfer, who i think is very good, they don't have any money, they have a lot of talent. i'll say, here's the deal. i did it with a number of people. here's the deal, but i want to do, professional golfer, i played golf. i played very. next to see the horrible picture of me with the stomach to hear? what i do, and putting up today picture of me, what it actually look like hitting a ball, smashing that ball. you'll see quite -- i wouldn't say slim. i wouldn't say slim, but not bad. but the ball does go far. i would say about nine times further than biden can hit it. nine times. >> yeah. >> there. there you go. >> he's actually not that good. he puts the ball there. >> yeah, we played with him

before. >> reverend al, he's talking about national security. just robocall. walton twister about this that all this picture. that elvis playing golf. and then said that he has another picture where he doesn't -- well, where he says he doesn't look so bad. so, this is the man, during wandering mind of a man, who, right, now is encouraging but house gop to betray our ally and help vladimir putin. and republicans, you know, things have gotten so much worse because that lease when he was president, republican stood up and actually fought to push back on vladimir putin. no more. >> well, we watch and that speech. i'm being kind to call it a speech. he'd go four loaning money to

countries that can't pay their debt to how he loan money to athletes who no one can find out who they are, to him deny that he was that albert at one point. that he has a slim photo that we can't find. and then he goes back to foreign affairs. they wonder how old and out of touch joe biden is? just look at those four minutes. you would start saying, is this guy capable of being president? i made to compare loaning money to countries that maybe needs some foreign aid to you luttig need to unnamed, probably not existent athletes, is not somebody that you would want sitting in the oval office. >> because of that, saint john, nothing on that story is true. none of those things happen. the conversation with the foreign later, the loaning money to pga player, famously, don't need money. >> and the waistline. >> really, what joan mika get,

this what's at the heart of that is correcting the record about the picture as living somewhere in his head. it's all that was about. but the more serious point to you and richard is about how we treat our allies. jeff to pay protection money now to the united states if you don't pay what donald trump deems appropriate is he going to stand back and let russia tanks roger country? >> yeah, the only thing that was real about that speech was the applause from the audience when he talked about, hey, we shouldn't just give the money away. it should be along. i think there is a sense here, richard and peter baker road in the times today. the maga republicans, they don't be the world the same way that the republicans, for democrats to. they don't think it should be the united states's responsibility to come to the eighth of necessarily anybody else. we're seeing that play out right now. we're not going to fall through our commitment, potentially, to ukraine. we are seeing this with trump threatening to basically blow

up nato, pull that u.s., out or at least extort the other members there to enrich itself. and then we have but vladimir putin with momentum. even suggesting yesterday that he would prefer joe biden to be the president rather than donald trump, which another thing we can safely say is not true. >> that's a deft touch. look, that's what's worrying, jonathan, about this. the idea that trump is saying what he's saying it's one of them. the idea that politically he has a base for which is working is worrisome. women go to the polls in november. this is going to be an election that the difference between joe biden and donald trump, in terms of foreign policy, not damaging democracy, it's about a black and white issue, okay? i don't think that most americans, and they go to the polls, that's going to be upmost in their minds. they're going to other issues. i'm worried about that disconnect. when people vote, they're not going to be voting on the basis of who is the most responsible commander-in-chief, but the implications of this election for the world and for american interests in the world will be

truly profound, will be historic, we are at a turning point, potentially. that makes me an easy. somehow these issues have not unheard enough the political mainstream or american voters have not internalized. some are elaborate about the disconnect between how people are going to vote, what's going to motivate their vote, biden's tool, this or that about whatever issue. and the foreign policy effects of elections. that disconnect is something that is really worrisome. >> this morning speaker, johnson is still refusing to let the -- foreign aid bill. as the conference yesterday, that the house was it would be forced into action by the senate. but just last week, speaker johnson blamed the senate for the house and action on a border security bill. and actio border security bill. >> the largest, that we will see what the senate. as we spent a lot of time on the hillside waiting, waiting the sentence action. it's hard sometimes. that's where the process plays

out. we are not going to be forced into action by the senate, who, in the latest product they sent us over, does not have one word of the bill about america's border, not one word about security. we have to address this seriously. we have to actually solve the problems and not just take political posturing as has happened in some of these others. >> gosh. >> joe, seven days. seven days apart. to your point earlier in the show, you get the sense that he and house republicans just hope people aren't paying attention. they're following what's going on in that news. he's saying opposite thank one week prior. >> coming -- up acclaimed lincoln biographer, hauser, joins us. that's next. , hauser, joins us. that's next.

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with nurtec odt, i can treat a migraine when it strikes and prevent migraine attacks, all in one. don't take if allergic to nurtec. allergic reactions can occur, even days after using. most common side effects were nausea, indigestion, and stomach pain. ask about nurtec odt. this is one of the most important sources of america's greatness. we lead the world because unique among nations, we drop our people our strength, from every country in every corner

of the world. by doing so, we continuously renew and enrich our nation. all other countries claim to the steel pass, here in america, out we bring life into dreams. we create the future. and the world follows us into tomorrow. thanks to each wave of new arrivals to this land of opportunity, we are nation for every young, forever bursting with energy and new ideas, and always on the cutting edge, always the leading the world to the next frontier. this quality is vital to our future as a nation. if we ever close the door to new americans, our leadership in the world would soon be lost. >> those were ronald raegan words back in 1989, talking about immigration. and how important it is to the united states greatness and strength. he's far from the only republican president who had to deal with the topic. among them, and rambling. canceling comes is on immigration was a subject of a

new by titles, brought forth on this continent, abraham lincoln and american immigration. its author, claim lincoln historian, harold holzer, joins us now. harold, thank you so much for being with us. it is so great to have you here. >> thank you. it's great to be back after about 15 years. so, great to be here. >> let's make this a more regular occurrence. you know, there is some debate. you can clarity out for me. right now. there are so many quotes that we give all the time. that lincoln ever, said that churchill ever set. but there is quite attributing thinking that if he didn't say it, it applies very neatly to slavery and immigration. it is, i walk slowly, but i never walk back. first of all, did lincoln actually ever say that? secondly, explain how that applies to what he did on

immigration. >> he did say it. it's not written, but it was heard by a number of contemporaries. i think it was specifically about emancipation. once he took the step, he wasn't going to retreat. looking for compromise. on immigration, he evolved slowly. first, hoping to make alliances with the defense, anti- immigration forces, if they could be persuaded to join him in the fight against slavery. ultimately, he did and said that right thank during his presidency. he recruited practically a formulation to fight, 23% of the union army was either german or irish, swedish, polish, spoke with a foreign accent, basically. another 200,000 were first generation, hyphenated american's. even in illinois, when he was campaigning for the senate, he had a fascinating quote, which i suspect you will like, joe,

because he said, looking out at a crowd of germans, he said, i know you are -- on independence day, i know you're not descending directly from the founders. but according to the promise of the declaration of independence, you are the blood of the blood of the founders just as surely as their own descendants. poisoning the blood. he said they were enriching the blood. >> harold, you just pointed out that number of immigrants fighting in the civil war, couple hundred thousand immigrants, 150,000 irishman, directly from their home country into the uniform of the united states of america. you also indicated that at one point, lincoln was willing to pay people from foreign countries to immigrate to united states. how would that have worked? didn't work? >> it was in his 1863 annual message. equivalent of the state of the union message. he simply believed,

underwriting immigration would be pretty not only do soldiers, which he desperately needed with the casualty an injury rate, but as he, frankly, told congress, we also have enormous gaps in employment on farms, minds, in factories. it was a bridge for congress. the language they used was pretty racist and nativist. this will invite the dregs of europe to come here. so, ultimately, congress did pass and lincoln signed a bill that would allow private industry to underwrite immigration in return for one airs practically indentured. degrading a slave trade or didn't create a really big population? it's depends on interpretation. he was really pushing for it. because, as he, said this isn't enrichment. he said immigration as one of those things that providence has created to improve and enrich our country.

>> harold, congrats on the book. >> thank you. >> tell us, after lincoln's death, what happened next. did his successors pick up this mental, this view on immigration, to the country swing the other way? >> there was one more build that kind of cured the problems that lincoln had created the first federal bureau of immigration. remember, immigration was not in the federal purview, according to the constitution. the feds controlled nationalization, not immigration. lincoln brought federal government into it. he thought in a positive way, subsequently, the supreme court indicated that under the commerce laws, the federal government could control. that 1865 second immigration reform bill was the last positive legislation for exactly hundred years until johnson's immigration bill in 1965. otherwise, it was restrict, restrict, restrict when eastern europeans began coming in, restrict and we know what happened in the holocaust

period when jews were turned away. >> herald, you spent your life, your adult life, studying writing about editing books, about abraham lincoln. i don't think it's an overstatement -- after speaking for myself here. i think we are entering the most important election since 1864 for this country. i'm curious, what are your thoughts about abraham lincoln's message? what would abraham lincoln's message be to america today? >> i'd like to think that he would urge us to embrace the kind of tapestry of nationalities and races that make up america. to encourage the expansion of the country that he envisioned for after the civil war. and inclusive, energetic

country. of course, i think that reelection, joe, which is widely believed one of the most important elections in history, set for all-time, even in a civil war, democracy prevails. we needed to have a vote of the people, even if half of them -- well, half of the territory was arraigned against the other half. likened himself said the most remarkable thing about that election was that it occurred peacefully. we have to fight -- i think when couldn't want to fight for peaceful elections. peaceful exceptions of the result. lincoln was ready to lose that election. he wrote a memo saying, i pledge to cover it with the incoming administration. that is a lost art. it would be nice to see it again. >> it would be. that new book is titled, brought forth on this continent. abraham lincoln and american immigration. it's available today, i've already bought. it yoshida as well. his story, harold holzer,

greatly pretty being here with us. >> thank you having me. >> jean robinson, final thoughts today? >> well, i'm glad we ended with harold holzer. congratulations to him on the new book because it is heartening and these depressing times, looking ahead with dread and fear towards the coming election that we have been there before. we've been and much more circumstances before. our democracy did hold. nothing is impossible. nothing is already lost. but it took work. it took work and commitment and dedication and belief to make this nation survive and we need some of that right now. >> we will certainly do. all right, thank you so much. >> next, vice president kamala harris says she's ready to

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welcome back to morning joe: weekend. let's jump right back in with another one of this week's conversations we thought you just shouldn't mess. >> there had been questions about joe biden and questions arose especially after the

release of robert hers report card president biden's handling of classified documents. it's amplified scrutiny of the presidents age. a new exclusive interview with vice president kamala harris with the wall street journal, two days before her report came out, she says she is ready to serve. the journal writes, quote, there's no question about that. harris responded bluntly. everyone has these are on the job says, walks away fully aware of my capacity to lead. let's bring in, right, now reporter for the wall street journal, treaty party, who conducted the interview. thanks much for being with us. what was your take away with all the time you spent with the vice president? >> thanks for having me. so, the vice president was pretty clear that she is ready to serve. of course, this question normally doesn't come up as much vice presidents. this is something that she is having to face because she's vice president to the oldest president. with this report, this is going to keep coming up for her as

republicans try to make this an issue on the campaign trail. if i think that was interesting for my interview with her is a special lot of time talking to her about abortion and the way she is talking about abortion rights. this is an issue that -- are issued democrats have an advantage on that we've seen in polls. the way that she is talking about it is especially interested because she is not really holding back. she's getting into pretty explicit details in a way we don't usually see elected officials do. she said part of that is trying to get people to feel some empathy and see what is actually going on in these states. she's using that former prosecutor background. she's worked on sexual assault cases to really get her message across. i asked her if she feels like she needs to convince voters she's ready. she really shut that down and said, she feels ready. she thinks voters can see that while she's on the campaign trail, on this big issue of

abortion rights. >> tarini, mark day with the new york times. the vice president has been on the trail a lot lately. do you expect that you are going to see another goal for her if joe biden does win reelection? is she doing anything special behind the scenes that maybe the public isn't aware of to prepare in the eventuality that she would have to step up, god forbid. >> we have seen her take on more of a national security type portfolio. she has been involved in, you know, advising the president on the war in the middle east. she has been on calls with benjamin netanyahu. she has been pushing the administration to adopt a more empathetic posture towards palestinians. and to focus more on a postwar gaza plan. we know that she is talking about that. she get that big speech in dubai a few weeks ago. she is taking on more of a national security portfolio. she is also now leading the

white house office on gun violence prevention. so, they are trying to give her more visibility as these questions about the presidents age keep coming up. of course, now with a special counsel report, are going to become an even bigger campaign issue. >> tarini, that's we've been talking about about how much or how little we will see joe biden himself on the campaign trail, given all these questions about the performance and asian all of that from some people, do you get the sense from vice president harris herself, from people around her, from the campaign, that we are going to be seeing much more of her, perhaps in places that the president will be? >> i definitely think some. she told me she plans on being everywhere. she said that she rested up in december because she knew she was going to be on the road constantly between now and november. we've seen her do a lot of that. she's been traveling. like i was with her in georgia and wisconsin. right now, she is focusing more

on abortion rights and, like i said, that is an issue that one of the few issues that can energize democrats right now. but she is, you know, also talking about, of course, gun violence prevention and, you know, other issues that democrats can get excited about, especially voters who are more progressive, minority voters, younger voters. these are the types of demographics at the white house feels she can especially appealed to in a way that maybe the president count. president . journal, brings us an interview with vice president kamala harris. we appreciate it. -- thank you as well. >> before i go, just for a second, democrats have got to start getting pest. joe biden has done a great job. joe biden has overseen the best economy of my lifetime. he has overseen given nato together, defending ukraine, handling israel deftly. keeping this country together coming out of covid. he's done everything right. the other guy is insane.

joe biden is 80 plus years old, yes, he is. he's been a competent, t, effective leader. democrats need to get tested start fighting. >> coming up, former president t trump's obsession with russian president vladimir putin. president vladimir putin. your brain health? mary, janet, hey!! (thinking: eddie, no frasier, frank... frank?) fred! how are you?! fred... fuel up to 7 brain health indicators, including your memory. join the neuriva brain health challenge.

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>> this is a matter of americas urgent national security. it's a matter of democracy. it's a matter of freedom. it's a matter of standing by our allies. it's a matter of american lives potentially been on the line. if ukraine and its brave war effort falters because of an action here in the united states congress by extreme maga

republicans. >> i wonder what happens when they go into a poland, when they go into another nato country? then the same republicans are going to be complaining saying, why did you allow that to happen? why did you allow -- or let's talk about china. president xi, who donald trump has absolute respect for, what happens when the chinese communist party decides they're going to go into taiwan. these people are going to be complaining, americans moscow. we must send our ships. we must do risk american lives. you see, not because, they don't understand, i guess, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. that sounds of protection is actually allowing the ukrainians to continue to take it to the russians. to fight the russians, to destroy their military. those minority leaders and kim jeffers vowed to move forward on passing foreign aid for allies. despite opposition in the house, that aid package contains critical aid to save

ukraine. to help them survive russia's invasion. more and more republicans are increasingly siding with russia. seemingly at the best of donald trump, whose appeasement of vladimir putin should come as no surprise. here are just some of those examples. >> are you at mayra at the russians? >> i think he's done a great job of outsmarting our country. >> putin even sent me a present. a beautiful present with a beautiful note. >> we just left moscow. he could not have been nicer. he was so nice, so everything. you have to give him credit. >> russia is like, i mean, there really hot stuff. i get along very well with vladimir putin. he's running this country, at least he's a leader, unlike what we have in this country. >> again, he kills journalists that don't agree with him. >> well, i think our country

does plenty of killing also, joe. you know. >> he called me a genius, he said donald trump is a genius, he said he will be the leader of the party, or the world, or something. he's had some good stuff about me. russia, if you're listening, i hope you're able to find the 30,000 emails that are missing. i think you will probably be rewarded mightily. people came to me, dan coats came to me, and some others, they said they think it's russia. i have president putin, he just said it's not russia. i'll say this, i don't see any reason why it would be. >> so putin is now saying it's independent, a large section of ukraine. i said, how smart is that. he's going to go in and be a peacekeeper. you've gotta say, that's pretty savvy. >> it's not that putin is smart, which of course he

smart, but the real problem is that our leaders are dom. volodymyr putin, has anyone ever heard of vladimir putin? of russia. he says that biden, and this is a quote, politically motivated, persecution of his political rival, is very good for russia because it shows the ronettes of the american political system. one of the presidents of a big country stood up and said, sir, if we don't pay, and were attacked by russia, will you protect us? i said, you didn't pay, you delinquent. he says, yes. let's say that happened. no, i would not protect you. in fact, i would encourage them to do whatever the hell they want. you have to pay. you've gotta pay your bills. >> it goes on and on. the praises for a war criminal, for a guy who says the greatest geopolitical disaster of the 20th century was not world war i, was not world war ii, was

actually the collapse of the soviet union. lee is still committing war crimes. donald trump is still trying to help him get away with it. we see now republicans lining up behind him, one after another, after another. russia hoax? yeah, please. >> there aren't many, there aren't many ideological positions in which donald trump is consistent, but praising vladimir putin is one of them. those clips expand back decades, back before he even was entering politics. certainly in his campaigns in his presidency, he bent over backwards to praise putin, and help him. they were tough sanctions during his time in office, he got through congress, other parts of administration pushed in as well. trump repeatedly tried to block them. i think that everyone, including vladimir putin, expects that would happen again, for trump to be reelected. that's why putin's plane for time here. it couldn't be working better for him right now.

the u.s., unable to send much needed military aid and weapons to ukraine because of trump's disciples, the republicans in congress, they're likely going to block this to get through the house. then russia making some progress on the battlefield. putin has no need to negotiate right now because he can wait. you can wait to see if trump gets elected, and if that's the case, you can either watch to see trump give him -- lean on zelenskyy, given to his first settlement, or, bailout nato. that would allow him to march further into ukraine. >> you watch those clips and you wonder, for the next kgb agent, has there ever been an easier mark than donald trump? you used to have to work hard to recruit teenage, and get someone to work for you. all you have to do is flatter him from time to time. here is, as john, said going up on the stage and saying i will clear the way for russia to attack nato allies who don't pay their dues. that's just confirms for putin, i've got to make sure donald trump wins. i'm going to sit back wait for

24, the mike ice back in the white house. >> don't go away, we have a second hour of morning joe on this sunday morning coming up right after the break. sunday right after the break. tting a c? i'm turning the big seven-o and getting back on the apps. ha ha ha. variants are out there... and i have mouths to feed. big show coming up, so we got ours and that blue bandage? never goes out of style. i prioritize my health... also, the line was short. didn't get a covid-19 shot in the fall? there's still time. book online or go to your local pharmacy.

>> good morning and welcome back to the sunday edition of morning joe: weekend. let's pick back up on some of this week's top conversations. i'll tell you,, willie with fani willis stood up, came into

the room and said, here, i'm going to take the stand, i thought, oh boy. everyone, everybody sit back. this is going to be something. she was defiant, she was upset. she was angry. many would say she was asked a lot of degrading questions, and the entire thing was a bit of a you know what show, that she doesn't have time for. she gave it to them. i'll tell you that. >> yeah, it wasn't incredibly dramatic scene as she testified, later she'd been pacing back and forth in her office listening to the previous testimony. she went in and remember, she wasn't supposed to appear. she wasn't going to appear with the subpoena. she said, i'm ready, i'm going to do it. she sat down in the witness stand. it will continue this morning. fani willis took the stand in atlanta and deliver testimony,

the evidentiary hearing from the conduct allegations against her. this is -- donald trump and his co defenders have her disqualified and the election to mess. let's -- try to withdraw that objection yesterday, accusing the defense of lying about her relationship with special prosecutor nathan wade. let >> mr. wade visit you at the place you layer head? >> when? >> has he ever visited you at the place you lay your head? >> let me be clear. you've lied. let me explain how you live right here. you lied right here. no, this is the truth. it is a lie. it is a lie. let's >> d.a. willis holding up three pleadings filed by the defense there last month. trump codefendant, michael, roman a longtime opposition researcher who worked in the trump administration accused will listen weight of having an improper personal relationship, acclaimed wade was hired for the job because of it.

but listed admit to the relationships, but she said it started after weight was hired. trump and several other codefendants joined roman's motion to try to remove willis. when roman's attorney ashley merchant accused willis of not wanting to turn over records, willis reminded her that she is not the one charged with a crime. >> i object to you get in records. you've been intrusive into peoples personal lives. you are confused. you think i'm on trial. these people are on trial for trying to steal an election in 2020. i'm not on trial, no matter how hard you try to put me on trial. >> earlier, mr. way took the stand and testified to the timeline of his relationship with, willis and how the pair split the cost of trips and their dates with willis, he said, willis paid in cash. she can from that later. a former friend of d.a. willis who also worked inside the d.a.'s office, her name is robert your team, testified that will listen wades began dating in 2019, disputing the timeline the couple had given. one process, it was revealed

that they had a falling out with willis after she was forced out of the d.a.'s office in 2022. okay. with all that, said let's bring in former u.s. attorney and msnbc legal analyst, joyce vance, former assistant tierney for the district of columbia, kirschner, he is an msnbc legal analyst. former litigator and msnbc legal correspondent, lisa rubin. okay, let's begin. left to right, how about that? we have so many great legal minds here. joyce, i'll start with you. the conventional wisdom seemed to be after mr. weights testimony, some said that this case was dead because of inconsistencies and the way that they were describing the relationship because of the previous testimony. there's sadie, no, they were dating a long time before this. maybe this was an improper relationship. the d.a. willis's testimony, after mr. waits, do anything to change your mind about that? >> it may have changed the public impression of the hearing, but from the get-go,

this was about whether the defendant could prove a conflict of interest existed under georgia law. that warranted disqualification for fani willis. at least based on what we've heard yesterday, maybe they'll have more today. they came up short, they came up short and waits testimony, the witness, the friend who took the stand was impeached. this is the sort of thing that when your presenting evidence, you don't want to have happen. it turns out that this witness resigned in lieu of been fired from the district attorney's office. that through her testimony about the timeline of the relationship into doubt. ultimately, at the end of the day, yesterday, it was just a big nothing burger, willie. there was nothing that shows the fani willis and nathan wade have the sort of conflict of interest that georgia law recognizes. something akin to a prosecutor who only gets paid if they win a case. that's the classic case of georgia law where there is

conflict, the results and disqualification. that just wasn't there yesterday in the courtroom. >> glenn, joyce is right. we have deep, deep and the weeds about how much cash did you pay for this dinner a couple years ago, and d.a. willis was saying, i don't remember. i don't keep receipts. she says she keeps large amounts of cash and homes and often pays her way in cash. splitting the bill with mr. weight of the states. you had been mired in all these details. to pull weighed back, what did you see yesterday? what were the stakes? did you see anything that would get rid of this case, that would push it down to someone else who may not take it up? >> you know, willie, as always the case, i agree with joyce. this is going nowhere, it will very soon be yesterday's news because there is no conflicts, financial or otherwise. there is nothing that i saw in the testimony thus far, recognizing additional witnesses will testify today in the hearing is expected to go

into next week. i've seen nothing that has endured to the detriment of any defendant in the case. i don't think the defense will be able to carry the burden. what i do think is that what we saw yesterday is a tribute to the value of cameras in the courtroom. as you watch d.a. willis testify, i would be hard- pressed to believe that anything she said was a misrepresentation, wasn't accurate, or was untruthful. she was angry, she had every right to be angry. she was holding a public court filings that she contended, contained all sorts of lies. once they go out and to the public square, people are going to believe those lies. she was hot, but she had every right to be hot. she remained respectful, but forceful. i don't think this hearing will win the defense any relief whatsoever.

>> it's so interesting because you can definitely get from her testimony, lisa, that she was angry for a number of reasons. many of them she didn't bring up. she obviously doesn't like being lied about. she obviously doesn't like having her personal life dragged out into the open. also lied about. she mentioned several times in her testimony that she's had to move a lot, because of death threats. even before the election trial began, because of other trials that she's presided over. i mean, this is been a tough job for her. then to hear, you know, this sideshow happened, to try to delay the election interference case, this is her point of view, she was just, you know what, absolutely po'd. got up on the stand because she was, like damaged, i need to tell my own story to these people. let's talk about these people. the trump attorneys seem

bumbling, unprepared, completely surprised that she took the stand, and had absolutely nothing prepared for her. they kept asking are the same questions over and over again. they would talk about her cash, the cash that she kept in her home. through the course of her life, she said she had anywhere between $500 cash during hard times, up to $15, 000, maybe, and her apartment, during really good times. on average, $69,000. she never walked around with it except on vacation. at the, most she spent 2500 cash that was to pay him back for it. most of the time, she didn't carry around this cash. she kept where she lit. let's talk about where she live. she couldn't live in her home. she couldn't live in her home because this election interference trial has caused a danger to her life. so if you're wondering why she is angry, it's that this has

led to such an upheaval in her life, in so many different ways, to serve, and to try and take this case to fruition, and then to have this happen that would cause someone to be very, very angry. i know i'm going to get to a question but to point, out you know, it's bad when you turn on fox news, and they start talking about her demeanor, her behavior her looks. it shows that there is probably a problem with the case that they think they have against her. i think she was fiery, she said important things, and that she set herself up for a lot of criticism. i think this is a woman who doesn't give a dam about that. how do you think she did, lisa, in the face of everything that came out her yesterday? would you have adjusted anything? >> you know, it's really hard to say, it's hard to criticize somebody's performance given the accusations that have been

thrown at her and nathan wade. if fani willis were my client, i'd probably have been biased against two things. one, advise against shows a banker, and advised her against some of the detailed that she provided. there were times in which that detail was helpful and humanizing to her, and other times when it was just an necessary explanation, and almost gave the other attorneys more license to probe into her personal life. >> we have much more to get to this hour. morning joe: weekend continues after a short break. continues after a short break. all in o. don't take if allergic to nurtec. allergic reactions can occur, even days after using. most common side effects were nausea, indigestion, and stomach pain. ask about nurtec odt.

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>> welcome back to morning joe: weekend. let's jump back in with another one this week's conversations we thought he should not mess. your reaction to the death of nirvana and your thoughts about

donald trump and the republicans he is leadito fight aid to ukraine, which is fighting russian aggression? >> yeah, well obviously, everyone knows his name, as you heard from ambassador mcfaul. i think from me, what i thought of immediately was just how insane it is that we have so many people on the republican party right now who are just on team putin. a guy who, as you heard, over, years has poisoned this activists, imprison him, beat him. invaded ukraine, tried to take over, you, know areas to reach into nato territory. it's just crazy to hear this kind of news, and have a week like we just had where our republican peers, again, many who have refused to consider additional military aid for ukrainians, and are okay with trump saying, i give up on our alliances. i'm not interested in american leadership role in the world. if it's not us, it's putin.

or jim, it's other people. no one would ever say that american leadership is perfect, but i would rather have american leadership in the world today than any of this other folks. it brings it home today with navalny's death. >> anything about navalny's life and everything that he went through to not just fight russian oppression, but to show it to the world that can teach these republican something perhaps they don't know? >> well, i said to myself, i wonder how many of them are going to tweet today about him being and hero, a martyr, and then in the same breath say, but we can't help the ukrainians found off putin. i think that he is this kind of massive figure who went through hell in order to defend and protect his country, and expose putin. i think of the geostrategic importance of this moments. and it's hard to explain

sometimes. i admit that. why is it important for us to be engaged in a place like ukraine. but you either pay now by providing arms via, cranial pay ten times more. not just in treasure but in blood, if he goes into nato. it just highlights all of it this week. >> let's not forget congresswoman -- at the wall street journal reporter and american who has been held in russia for almost a year now. paul whelan, he's been held for more than five years at this, point in russia on charges of spying for michigan. lydon -- spoke to anthony blinken this week by phone. there are still americans being held in russia as we absorb the news, and navalny. i'm glad you raised the point to put your colleagues in the, how some of them, potentially, your future colleagues in the senate to twisted themselves and knots, and fealty, to donald trump. the opposition to joe biden, however you want to look at, it to praise a guy who kills his opponents, who's killing

civilians as we sit here right now, who is an authoritarian. how do you explain that. is it just politics, and vladimir putin is someone to be looked up to? >> i don't know. i think, you know, in the era of trump, there is a lot of people who are looking for this autocratic leadership. trump leads in a way that is, you know, kind of my way or the highway. he has been very clear about what he will do if he wins again. he says i will run as a dictator. he's telling us what he will do. therefore, there is kind of a style that appeals for some people in that putin leadership as well. i don't totally understand it. i'm glad ronald reagan isn't here to see this party. it's probably rolling over in his grave. i mean, peace through strength is his thing, right? so it completely contravenes what i think of as principles of the republican party.

i think also, it means you are not thinking more than two inches down the road. you think it of your reelection, making sure you don't get a primary, you're not thinking about the strategic security of the united states. that is what gets under my skin. >> congresswoman slotkin, this also comes at a moment when putin clearly feels like he has to win at his back. he just gave this interview with an american tv host that was viewed millions in millions of times around the world. russian forces on the verge of capturing a town in ukraine. this will be the first victory since bakhmut. ukrainian soldiers saying they're running out of ammunition, in part because united states have not stepped forward with this bill. now, you, know perhaps they've decided, if there was a moment to kill navalny, this is at, there are no consequences here, as they watch november 2024, think donald trump can win again. speak to us about how precarious this is in europe. >> yeah, i think that it's hard to explain these big things.

our best guess is that the ukrainians could run out of ammunition to spring. our best guess is that they'll be out of missile defense capability to protect places like kyiv from ballistic missiles, probably by the summer. you should expect massive refugee flows, the grain deal that we have on the table to continue to get rain out of ukraine. it could fall apart, then you could see food prices spike across the world. you're just going to see more territory taken by putin, and that territory can project into nato countries. i don't know why anyone would say he's done after he's gone into ukraine. i do think he's, hedging and wanted to see if donald trump wins the election. my sense is donald trump would hand the keys to putin. why fight when you can get the keys from a new american presidents? so i think this year the goal is to allow the ukrainians to keep those lines, to push, back to fandom selves, until we get through this election. i'll be honest. then if trump wins, i think

putin will be thrilled. he will be looking to negotiate over ukraine as soon as possible with donald trump. >> former cia analyst democratic congresswoman, elissa slotkin of michigan. thank you very much for coming on the show this morning. coming, up a look at what a number of u.s. presidents did with their lives after stepping down as leader of the free world. free world. rward. with a streamlined shipping network. and new, high-speed processing and delivery centers. for more value. more reliability. and more on-time deliveries. the united states postal service is built for how you business. and how you business is with simple, affordable and reliable shipping. usps ground advantage. wanna know why people are getting a covid-19 shot? i'm turning the big seven-o and getting back on the apps. ha ha ha. variants are out there...

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♪are you ready♪ ♪are you ready♪ ♪ i'm gonna hold you forever... ♪ ♪ i'll be there... ♪ ♪ you don't... ♪ ♪ you don't have to worry... ♪ book is highlighting the bat some presidents take after leaving the white house. life after power explores the post presidency lives of seven of our nations leaders and how they moved on after holding the most powerful office in the world. they include thomas jefferson, who went on to found the university of virginia, john jo quincy adams, who served in

congress and became a leading abolitionist, and of course jimmy carter, who's had the longest post presidency in american history, advancing g humanitarian causes, human rights, cand peace. and joining us now, the author of that book, jared cohen. jared, let's start right there. congratulations on the book, but let's start with jimmy carter, who would seem every step of the way in his post presidency, he has been an example to the world. >> that's absolutely right, and mika, thank you for having me. alexander hamilton back in february 72, he asked that question what should we do with our ex presidents? and he wondered if it's a good idea for us to have ana dozen m who could been elevated to the presidency, walking around us like discontented ghost. and more than 200 years later, with jimmy carter, we kind of have an answer to that question, which is former presidents can either be tremendous partners esto their successes, or a huge nuisance. jimmy carter has been both to democrats and republicans

alike. >> so, jared, congrats on the book. let's go through some of these, cleveland, who was a post presidency twice because he lost -- and then won again. obviously, we've seen donald trump trying to mimic his behavior. tell us more miabout him beyond the politics. >> first of all, i love the fact that we get an occasion to talk about him. and i never would have thought when i began the journey writing this book that it would be newsworthy writing about grover cleveland. here we are the one and only time you had a rematch between two presidents is the nominees of the two major parties, it was 1892, grover cleveland came back to challenge benjamin harrison. this thing is given never lost the popular vote. he threw away the presidency in 1888 on the principle that he did not fight high tariffs, and he never been happier than when he left the presidency. he came back on the principle that he needed to save the economy from ruins, stop the tide of jingoism and imperialism. and it just shows you how awestruck we've gone that the only other time that we have a rematch between two presidents

is, you know, this election, 2024, the two oldest candidates in history, eclipsed only by themselves four years ago. >> herbert hoover, history has -- pressure on his forehead. [inaudible] -- the mississippi flooded in the --1970s, i know you know th one well. e and he went into the white house into one of the most lopsided victories in history in 1928. he's just tarnished by the great depression, they have to our people really numbered on him. and harry truman resurrect him after fdr's death in 1945

because they both knew what it was like to live in fdr shadow. but he was wrecked them because there's only one man who knows what it's like to be president, and how to feed the world. and they are staring at tothe e of world war ii in the face. and he asks herbert over to once again become the great humanitarian. he then becomes a great executive again, we organizing the executive branch under both truman and eisenhower. and he finally achieves that bipartisan feet, in 1960, when joe kennedy called on him to reconcile john f. kennedy and richard nixon to show national unity amidst the cold war. id so it's time to make herbert hoover great again. >> your rebook comes out tomorr, jared, and it's gotten a rave review already from none other than richard -- journal. congratulations on that, i'm really excited to read it. my former colleague at the state department back in the day in policy planning. but i want to ask you about thomas jefferson in this book. so founded uva, pretty big post presidency. but he faced an interesting situation in 1825 with that

version of, you know, social justice warriors back in the day. can you talk aboutrr that? >> it's interesting, you know what's happening on university campuses today, and each chapter in the book looks at a different model for how to answer the question of what is next. and thomas jefferson was kind of a serial found. he did not want to be president. that was the founders obligation since he cofounded the republic. the third volume in his life trilogy was to find found an arts and sciences university because he believed that the public was flawed, and he needed a university to train the next generation. october 4th, 1825, at 82 years old, the worst day in thomas jefferson's life, the students at his beloved uva at the inaugural class are rioting throughout the university, ug covering and face masks, championing down with european professors, and throwing bags of urine esat the administratio jefferson calls an oath to assembly for the next day for the students to meet before the committee. that committee was thomas jefferson, james madison, and james wrote, most intimidating disciplinary committee past, present, and future. and the reason this is prescriptive for today,

jefferson stands up and he starts balling, hysterically crying down is 82-year-old face. and he was a man with such tremendous principle that when james madison, five foot one, puts his hand fon jefferson's shoulder to sit down, the students are so distraught by saying thomas jefferson emotionally tarnished by what they've done, that they guilty confess one by one. and they sort of abandoned, this sort of show of southern honor where they won't get each other up -- >> what a great story! this is great. the new book is entitled life after power, seven presidents and their purpose beyond the white house. it goes on sale tomorrow. jared cohen, thank you very much for coming on the show this morning. congratulations on the book. it looks great. having me. u for >> good to have you. up next, a particularly volatile week in the markets. steve rattner breaks down the potential dual threat of debt and deficits. debt and deficits.

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a lot of washington's focus has been on the recent foreign aid package if you are talking about years of budget deficits that keep getting made worse by federal spending that was during the covid-19 pandemic. and it has taken a u.s. national debt to historic new levels, threatening not only the future of the economic growth but also of our economy. let's bring in right now a former treasury official, morning joe economic analyst, steve rattner. steve, we've been talking about this for years, just like we've

been warning about inflation for years. and then, certainly people, just say, it a lot of progressive, a lot of liberal economists had said, oh, inflation is never going to happen, oh, we can keep paying down, you know, keep spending too much money, oh -- well, here we are with the debt, and this is the sort of thing when the debt crash is, you know, the implications are so horrible that it's not something that the fed chairman is gonna be able to fix in a year. take us through the situation because you've been on the forefront of this well, warning americans for sometime. >> well, there's no question debt, joe, that the deficit of that debt -- excuse me, admiral mike mullen when he was head of the joint chiefs said that the debt and the deficit was one of our greatest national security problems because it threatens even things like our defense. but let's take a look at some of the things you were just talking about over here. so you mentioned, when you are a congressman, when you were a congressman back during the clinton era, you can see that deficits were extremely loud,

like a quarter of a trillion dollars, 250 billion dollars here. and then famously, of course, bill clinton left the country with the help from congress, with a surplus. george bush turned that surplus back into a deficit. you may remember dick cheney's famous comment that deficits don't matter. reagan proved that. they cut taxes twice. they did not really care about the deficit. obama, in fairness, had the financial crisis, but once that started to pass, he worked the debt down, down, down. you had a democratic president past fiscal policy. you had another democratic president was positive fiscal policy. and in between, you had a couple of republicans, as we just pointed out, even before covid, under trump, the deficit was getting larger and larger. and that of course covid, which of course is nobody's fault, had to be dealt with, but it came after deficits early rising. and biden had to deal with most of the covid expenses. he got the deficit down a bit, but now we're still looking at

deficits of two trillion dollars, as far as the eye can see. and i will show you some numbers in the second. and back here, we thought these kinds of deficits were scary, and now we've got these kinds of deficits. what does that mean for the debt , as you pointed out, the debt is almost 35 trillion dollars at the moment. it has gone up from ten trillion dollars, back around here. in 1980, if you want a fun fact, the u.s. debt was one trillion dollars. from 1980 until today, we have added 33 trillion dollars to our debt. we've taken the ratio of debt the two gdp, this is an important measure of how much debt we have in relation to the size of the economy, from the 40% range, which is considered healthy, to 100% range which is considered unhealthy. >> all right, and what else do we have, steve, what else are we looking at today? >> so what else we're looking at today is the fact that we have done, we have been kind of oblivious to the fact that that situation only gets worse.

and one way to illustrate that is to take a look at the congressional budget office and how they have forecast ten year debt numbers. and i'm not here to bang on the congressional budget office. i'm here to more bank on congress which keeps changing policies in a way which adds to the debt. if you go back to 2014, the congressional budget office thought that in 2023, our deficit would be one trillion dollars. in reality, it is 1.5 trillion dollars. they do these projections every year. i've picked out a few to make the chart clearer. and you can see that every time they have projected the ten-year deficit numbers, it just got higher and higher. and this one, which is the one they did this year, it's really scary. why does this line do this? because of higher interest costs an all the debt that we just talked about and because of paying for medicare for people who are getting elderly, president and company included. medicare and social security bills are gonna go up. and so, take that, and then you

see, what does that mean for the debt? not surprisingly, the same kind of scenario. back in 2014, we thought we would have modestly rising debt ratios, but not usually rising ones. then 2017, it gets worse. 2022, our projections get worse. and look out here, in this latest projection that they just did, they're looking at debt two deficit ratio of over 110%, getting closer to 120%. >> so, steve, let's move to our third chart which is the debt two gdp growth. how does that look right now and why is that an important step to look at? >> people say well, so, we are paying our debt interest rates are relatively low and why are we worrying about this. and america, we are the greatest, safest creditor in the world. okay, fine, there are big risks. one risk that is picked out's interest rate risks. all those projections i showed you assume that interest rates were made benign, 4%, less than 4%, a bit over later.

what happens if that's wrong? what happens if interest rates actually go up faster? here we are at the 120% level. we talked about in 2035 that we're going to hit that. if interest rates go up by 1% more than what the cbo is assuming, that where she goes from 148%. if interest rates go up by two and a half percent more than what cbo is assuming, it goes to 174%. and then if you go out to 2050, the numbers get even more dramatic. in 2015, if interest rates are two and a half percent higher than what the cbo projects, and nothing else changes in policies, our debt to gdp ratio goes to 303%. when you have a lot of debt, you are at risk to higher interest rates. we have lots more to get to this hour. morning joe: weekend continues after a short break. nd continus after a short break. with breztri, things changed for me. breztri gave me better breathing. starting within 5 minutes, i noticed my lung function improved. it helped improve my symptoms,

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welcome back to morning joe: weekend. let's jump back in with another one of this week's conversations we thought you should not miss.

>> i want to bring an executive director of libertarian policy institute, nicholas -- nick, i know i'm just lobbying a really fats off down the middle of the plate for you. and the bats about this big, as a guy connected with a libertarian party. but, you know, those numbers that we saw from steve rattner, you know, i have been warning about this since 1994. i never even imagined that congress would be this irresponsible. when i left, congress was a balanced budget. can you believe that? we had 155 billion dollar surplus. and i think four, four and a half trillion dollar debt. now, we have a 34 trillion. the economic implications are horrible. people don't want to talk about it. but the storm is coming. we are standing on the beach and we are doing nothing. and, nick, the biggest problem is there's not a small government party out there.

the only time republicans care about even talking about deficits is when there's a democrat in the white house, but they just keep spending. and it gets worse when republicans run washington. >> yes, i did not realize that 30 trillion dollars have been added just during my lifetime to the national debt. and in a world economy, when you are at the front of the pack, you have a lot of space. we have the biggest economy in the world. we have a lot of the space to do things that other economies can't. but that depends on the leadership of our country, dealing with the problems, and not allowing debt to go to these astronomical levels. and unless we want to turn him into a great britain or argentina, we need to have a congress that is able to cut spending and actually increase growth, remove some of these barriers to economic growth because that's really what gets rid of deficits. the surplus that you had, that

came about because of the combination of spending cuts and economic growth. and this congress right now isn't doing anything, right? they pass maybe 30 bills, a tenth of what a congress normally does. johnson is gonna send people back to their districts for a district word work period. and american voters we need to talk to the congress person and say i want the congress to deal with this bill that came out in the senate. i want you to get it around mike johnston. he is a moron. just shy of the discharge petition through, get it to the vote, do the job we elected it to do, and we pay you to do. don't just go on tv, don't trust him and how, actually do some legislation, get some spending cuts, and do something for the american people, or you're gonna be gone in november. >> and the problem, nick, let's put these numbers up again. when you look at what presidents have added, of course, you had

with george w. bush and barack obama at the end of that. you of course had, well you had 9/11 at the beginning of the bush, and at the end, you had the financial crisis that bush and obama dealt with. and then you look at donald trump, despite that, donald trump added 8.2 trillion dollars in four years. 8.2 trillion dollars. and that's the guy for, nick, this is when people actually who give a dam about the future of our economy, that's a guy who is supposedly running as a, quote, conservative. and his numbers were sending records even before covid. >> you know, i believe in a looking at reality. and that reality is if you go back to every president in my lifetime, republicans are the biggest spenders. democrats don't spend as much money. democrats actually pay for the things that they want to do,

and adequate level than republicans. republicans put us into debt, and this current republican party wants us to step back from the world stage. they don't want us to be the leader. that's gonna make us into britain at best, where you are a shell of your former self. or even worse, you're going to go on an argentina path where donald trump is going to create a crisis that only he can fix, and there's going to be draconian changes to our economy . the bond markets depend on leadership from the biggest country in the world. they depend on us fixing our debt problem before it's a big problem. >> coming up, our conversation with actor kingsley bennett anger who blazed bob marley in the new biopic in theaters now. . and i have mouths to feed. big show coming up, so we got ours and that blue bandage? never goes out of style. i prioritize my health... also, the line was short.

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>> on december 3rd, 1976, would be assassins invaded bob marley's home and took the life of the singer -- >> that was part of the trailer for the new movie bob marley: one love, which chronicles the life and legacy of the iconic musician, beginning with an attempt to assassinate him back in 1976. and joining us now, the actor who plays bob marley, kingsley ben-adir. it is so good to have you on the show. can i say, we love you in the key blinders. we love you in barbie. my god, and now this, and actually will start there, because you prepared, you prepared for this role while playing basketball, can -- i don't know how that works. explain. >> well, i got -- ziggy and the

family they gave me the job. i had three months on marley, and i wanted to work on that -- there was so much love with bob . so, you know, every time i get a call caught, i just ran my head in the mojo and start doing some redemption songs. it just felt like it made sense. >> got it -- so tell us what drew you to this role. you've played a lot of great roles, but the storyline, the narrative, and the character. what draws you to bob marley? >> yeah, bob obviously, you know, is a dream role because he is so rich and there's so much to him. but really, to be clear, it was my understanding that the family were involved. and once i spent time with them , and once i understood what their intention was, it just made sense to me to go on a journey with them. there was no way that i could say no, you know. they wanted

to explore their dad at this time on a human level. and to try and capture a little bit of his essence, never to do imitation or mimicry, you know, because bob, you can't play him. he was too big. so trying to find bob's vulnerability after he nearly lost his life, after he nearly lost his life, after the band, after they all nearly died, came to london and created this masterpiece in a matter of months. and so, for me, i was, like, out of that trauma, and came this masterpiece, with just an outpour from bob. and i guess i found that very interesting and for me it was an exploration of safety, eternal safety, inner peace, as much as this is about bob's message of spreading peace, it was, for me, to invest with his friends and family where he was at peace in

himself. and i think that is universal. i think we're all on our own journey to find safety and peace within ourselves, you know. yeah, it just felt like an opportunity i could not say no to. >> in the movie, in the documentary where you played bob, we know bob is this iconic figure. and i kind of figure, a human being. as i shared with you, i was very close with james brown. but i knew james brown the person. as you sought to play bob marley, which is almost like a possible grab it all. what did you have to deal with to find what motivated, made bob marley bob, who became this iconic figure, and part of his spiritual journey in bringing back the whole roster, all of that -- tell us about the spiritual side and the person that you found bob to be that you can try to become that.

>> i don't know if we got time to tell you how i got there. they involve his family and his friends, spending a lot of time talking and listening to them. you know, everyone's got the soundbite, but it was about talking about the private bob. i will go back to the idea of safety. you know, bob was a kid who grew up in the street -- he came from the country and he grew up in the street. he hung around with real dudes, and he saw real things. and, you know, violence, and when you've grown up in that way, for me, bob found safety in his guitar. >> good morning. it's a sunday, february teams. i'm ali simon and as in new york with simone sanders- townsend and michael