>> i don't know if we got time to tell you how i got there. they involve his family and his friends, spending a lot of time talking and listening to them. you know, everyone's got the soundbite, but it was about talking about the private bob. i will go back to the idea of safety. you know, bob was a kid who grew up in the street -- he came from the country and he grew up in the street. he hung around with real dudes, and he saw real things. and, you know, violence, and when you've grown up in that way, for me, bob found safety in his guitar. >> good morning. it's a sunday, february teams. i'm ali simon and as in new york with simone sanders- townsend and michael steele in

washington d.c.. today, silence from donald trump 48 hours after russian opposition leader alexei navalny's death. the former president has said nothing. we h.will see what he has been focused on instead. plus, d trump owes more than ha a billion dollars in legal penalties. his former lawyer michael cohen joins us to discuss what all that means for his business and how it could affect his criminal trials. no mansion, no hogan -- were going to , process the culture no labels and what their third party plans to do next. kerber coffee. settle in. welcome to the weekend! the south carolina primaries less than a week away. last night, donald trump was mp more than 600 miles north in the palmetto state in philadelphia, hawking a line of 400 dollar trump sneakers took what i will call him mixed

reception. >> wow, a lot of emotion. there is a lot of emotion here. thank you. thank you! >> trump is digging his heels into the sneaker business. joining us now, white house reporter for the wall street st journal sabrina siddiqui. also with us, msnbc contributor and author of finding latinx, in search of -- redefining latin identity. welcome to you both. good morning. g, this is what it has come to now. we are sitting here talking gold tennis shoes for the presidency. what does this say about how much the decisions, the court decisions recently have disrupted the flow of the trump came? yes, there was booing. that's a lot of emotion when you 'sare booing at him. [laughter] how are you reading the telltale signs hofrom this

campaign? there is a different feel to it after the heels of the massive decision this week. >> look, as we know, former president trump is on the hook for a lot of money. it could be with interest totaling about 100 billion dollars. he has a lot of bills to pay. i'm not sure that this sneaker line is going to do the trick for him. >> they are gold. >> they are gold. we will see how it pans out. look, i think the financial challenges that he is facing are having an impact on him and his campaign. look, the trump campaign often says in many ways that the courtroom ysis the campaign for them because you have heard him do this again and his rally last night, really focusing on the grievances with the judicial system, saying that this was all some kind of conspiracy and that he is being targeted when there is an abundance of evidence, the

charges and verdicts which have been brought against him. you bewill see other signs of h the financial challenges are getting thto him. there is concern among republicans that he may even try to use the rnc and its cash flow to support his legal bills. >> i mean, that is what nikki haley has said, right? first, can we just put up the biden campaign statement, the good part about the sneakers? donald trump showing up to hawk bootleg of whites is the closest he'll get to air force one's ever again to any of his life. i appreciate michael tyler for putting a finer point on it. nikki haley had something to say about what sabrina just raced. i want to play for you how nikki haley's framing donald trump's legal woes and what he is trying to do with the rnc.

>> he spent $50 million of his campaign contributions on personal court cases. he is now trying to take the rnc so that it can be the piggy bank for his legal fees. we have to start focusing on what americans need, not what donald trump needs. >> so, look, nikki haley is correct. i don't think that's even a partisan statement she is making. donald trump has a history of a siphoning off campaign resources and using them to pay for his legal fees. the grift is very real. do you think people care about this? >> my question is, why wasn't she saying this before? >> well -- >> it's not a surprise that he is seunhinged, that he is chaotic. it's not a surprise that he is dangerous. she knows this. where and when, where was that

courage months ago? she can go out to her voters and say this n man is a threat. he can be corrupt. am looking for right now in nikki haley. will she have the courage? knowing what she knows, saying what she is saying, will she have the courage in this defining moment hefor her to lo at her voters and say, i know that i will not win but i will not be voting for this man come november. another thing that she er constantly says is, you know, i genuinely believe that people, that americans will not be voting for this convicted criminal. the question is, will she be voting for him? you can say all of these things and play the game and distance yourself from trump. perhaps it is way too late. perhaps she should have done this a long time ago. that is what i am looking for. will she be able to look at people and say, this is not our man? i am willing to commit to not voting for him. >> michael, that come set against a backdrop of this new york times analysis. the headline, trump fully devours the republican

establishment, just putting a really fine point on that. let's listen to what laura trump had to say about the rnc on newsmax. >> the rnc needs to be the cleanest, most lethal political fighting momachine we've ever seen in american history. every single penny it will go to the number one and the only job r of the rnc. that is electing donald j trump as president of the united states and saving this country. >> as a former rnc chair, michael steele, i'm curious if that i'is your understanding of the way that the national committee is trying to work. >> i will start by saying wrong answer. that's not the number one of the rnc to electoral trump. the number one responsibility is to elect every candidate on the ballot on behalf of the party. it is to raise money for those candidates who s are on the ballot. it's to place the infrastructure. every candidate will -- you are

required so let me give you a little bit of training here. since you want the job, you are required to organize and coordinate every state party and the territories of the united rrstates who are in that republican family and you are to provide puthem with a platfo from which you will launch a platform to talk about what the party believes in. i'm sorry, we don't have a platform. is that your number y,one priority, madam co-chair? i don't dathink so. you told us it t is to elect donald trump. here in lies the problem, sabrina. >> >> that's right. drag them, drag them, drag them! make sure the people know. make sure they know. >> you have to understand what the party is tothere for. i whwalked into a party that wa dysfunctional, had to stop raising ctmoney, had lost two cycles of presidential and conventional. the first thing i had to do was not figure out, oh, how do i elect the president? how do i get people to even consider a republican candidatea

again? >> id-- >> you can talk about problems inside the party. you need to focus on the problems. by the way, the problem is your father in law. you need to understand exactly what you are up against. people need to understand that the reality of it is that every dollar that goes into that building is going to go out into a law firm as part of paying those bills. they may say, no, we are going to do all of these -- know they are not. the past is the prologue. what do you think the party leadership -- we have heard some grumblings. i'm sure you have reported on it. i'm a little bit concerned about that. does that concern it translate into something more than just concern? do you think there will be a battle inside the party to make sure those are going to be the sum close races? there are 18 that i can think

of. will those seats hold the house for a publicans? >> i tsthink there will absolutely s?be efforts to ensu that the party apparatus and its funds are being used in the service of electing other republicans. the problem is, and this is sort of going in line with what you said, what do they do to meaningfully stop former president trump if he does try to use the rnc to actually pay out his legal bills or his own personal gain? we have now had many years of republican elected officials in the establishment expressing concerns with trump and his conduct but not actually doing anything about it. if anything, they are still lining up behind him. that is going to be the biggest challenge. you have nikki haley. she speaking out about it because she's the only person who ostensibly as running against him even though we know the writing is on the wall over here. and the rest of what was once a crowded primary, instead of consolidating around an

alternative like haley, they consolidated behind trump. >> ray. >> i just don't think that this is the republican party that is going lito meaningfully challen trump when we have not seen any evidence of that since he truly entered the political fray in 2015. >> here's the thing. there is the party, the apparatus, the rnc, donald trump. you are always good at reminding me that the most alarming thing is the number of people, the inumber of america who are willing to follow donald trump down this rabbit hole. >> he can only arise because he has a whole support system that is allowing him to rise. that is the thing for me. we know ihow far trump is willing to go for power. we wiknow he controls the house the senate, potentially the rnc. the iaquestion is how far his voters are willing to go to get from that power knowing what we know, knowing what he inhas tol us, knowing that he said that he praises dictators, that he will govern with loyalists, l that he plans on having these es

-- >> that we lived through january 6th. >> knowing all of that, what's is that, yes, we have seen the evolution of someone who has gone from being a candidate to morphing into a strongman, but we have to remember that utwe are witnessi the evolution of an electorate which has gone offrom being voters and has also morphed into being people yearning for some form of authoritarianism or some form of strongman and we know this because the numbers are telling us three fourths of republicans support trump being a dictator for one day. the question is, under what conditions to those republicans support ttrump being a dictato for two days, three days, a week? that's what i want to know. he goes away, where does that desire then go? >> sabrina, you are not going anywhere. after a quick break which we have to sneak in right now, republicans standing in the way of real solutions on immigration, but that's not stopping them from traveling to the border to complain about the o problems there. the french ambassador to the

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congress is at a stalemate when it comes to addressing the border because republicans bailed from a bipartisan deal on immigration that they negotiated. republicans in congress are still complaining about the problem. senators lindsey graham and tim scott took a field trip to the

border on friday. both the senators voted against a border security bill which would have delivered aid to ukraine and israel and taiwan. it would have shored up infrastructure on the border that they went to visit. in a statement, senate majority leader chuck schumer said it is very nice that lindsey graham are taking a field trip to the border but their actions speak louder than words. sabrina and paola are back with us. actions do speak louder than words. let me start with you. the negotiations in congress are ostensibly dead now but they are dead because republicans backed away from the table on the deal. what can the president do? what can he independently do? what is your reporting tell you as you are out there? should we not continue to talk about how the republicans are pulling the rug out from the american people, playing politics with a very important

issue? >> i think that is exactly what the white house and democrats are doing. you are seeing somewhat of a shift in strategy. they are laying the blame with republicans for the crisis at the border, if you want to call it a crisis. when it comes to what the president can do, the white house is looking into possible unilateral actions on his part. are their steps that he is looking into to more quickly process asylum cases and even move up deportations, the timeline of deportations for those who don't qualify? i think he's going to have to be careful in balancing, trying to appear tough on immigration and not alienating for our sivs and constituents within the case who don't necessarily support these harsher measures on immigration, but politically, what you have really seen if the republicans complain about this all they want. they tank this bipartisan deal.

it was only because former president trump came out against it. what meaningful solutions are they willing to offer if they want to address this issue? >> that is a piece of democrats going on offense, saying that we try to deliver something that republicans rejected. that can't be the entirety of what it is that democrats do. what does it look like for president biden to go on offense on this issue? >> sabrina's right. i think there is this fine balance that he has to strike. the balances are about these two different stories that biden can lean into. there is a story of tough biden. he can go out there and say, look, i am the one that deported over 4 million people. i am the one that, under my administration, the wall has still gone up. i'm the one who is willing to compromise through this border security bill even though there are no provisions for dreamers. i did that. i still wanted a bill that amnesty international said was one of the most anti-immigrant and one of the most extreme

bills and the one that did them. i'm willing to shut down the border. he said that. there is another story that he told in 2020 which was part of his closing argument. i am the one that is willing to inject morality and sympathy and compassion to the border and that is one of the biggest distinctions between donald trump and i. that was part of the closing argument in 2020. i think that's sort of this very hard balance you have to strike. i think we all think that the first story is the correct one. in the short term and in politics, that's what we all want. >> even if he loses progressives in the process? >> perhaps it is the harder, more complex story that five years from now that may be the defining story for him. >> immigration, symone, it's not the only issue that is front and center during the election. abortion is very salient. >> absolutely. >> you have a donald trump saying he privately supports a

16-week abortion ban but not really coming out and giving it a full-throated approval because he has to know it is politically lethal to him. >> i feel gaslight in this conversation. donald trump bragged about overturning roe. am i wrong? donald trump coming out of the gate says, these are my justices. i am the reason that they are on the bench and they overturned roe v. wade. in the same breath, he also said, i think a 16-week abortion ban, i can bring people together on abortion. >> news flash, donald trump is not pro-life. i don't -- >> what is he? >> i don't know at what point people could not figure that out inside the pro-life community or inside the gop. he's never been a pro-life. you're going to see donald trump waffle on this issue. he has already begun to do

that. he's trying to delicately dance around it. what he also knows is that, if he needs to lean in hard on people to back off of him on this, they will inside the party. when you are looking at an issue like abortion which is fraught with problems for the gop, gop candidates don't want to be on the step talking about it. you look at the border. really, seriously? you are going to do the photo op at the border when you took a pass on the hard legislation that conservatives put in place? we get it, right? the reality here is that the republican party is trying to have it always. at what point to the voters say enough? do you think you sense that there are any movements despite joe biden's problems? when i look across the aisle, they go, that is just not moving the needle at all. >> well, look, i think it really depends on the issue. with abortion, like you just

mentioned, that is a real political challenge for republicans and it is one of the key reasons that republicans underperformed in the 2022 midterm elections. you're seeing it now with former president trump and we've seen it with nikki haley and a lot of the others who try to seek the gop nomination to really not take a firm stance on this issue, although i think simone's point is really important. former president trump is responsible for appointing the supreme court justices who were critical in the decision to overturn roe v. wade. that's one of the primary reasons what he said he appointed them. i don't think him waffling on the issue is going to change that fact and you know that president biden and his campaign are really going to hone in on that fact. when it comes to issues like immigration, holding still tends to show that republicans perform more strongly on the issue of immigration, at least in terms of voter perceptions. that's what will be interesting to see, if this new strategy on the part of president biden and

democrats to go on offense on this issue actually bears fruit. >> yeah. >> and if the tougher talk is enough to persuade those voters who are skeptical of whether or not the administration has taken sufficient action to address the issue. >> sabrina siddiqui, paola ramos, thank you both so much for being on. senator joe manchin is a no labels 2024 pick. we have the national co-chair here to discuss the reality of their third-party dreams. you are watching the weekend.

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democrats agree. conservative republican steve garvey is the wrong choice for the senate. ...our republican opponent here on this stage has voted for donald trump twice. mr. garvey, you voted for him twice... as your own man, what is your decision? garvey is wrong for california. but garvey's surging in the polls. fox news says garvey would be a boost to republican control of the senate. stop garvey. adam schiff for senate. i'm adam schiff, and i approve this message.

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for america's common sense majority and we welcome senator manchin's efforts to strengthen it. no labels is currently speaking with several exceptional leaders about serving on the presidential unity ticket. the national co-chair of no labels joins us now to talk all about it. >> [inaudible] >> i want to play for you a little sound, doctor chavis, of senator manchin's announcement, and then we will talk about it on the other side. >> very good. >> [inaudible] [inaudible] >> you have manchin out. governor hogan of maryland is going to run for the u.s. senate. ambassador huntsman has said it's unlikely that he's going to run. who are you talking with? >> well, we are talking with

several exceptional leaders. we have our own internal process. first of all, we welcome senator manchin's commitment to continuing to work for the common sense majority. as we said, no labels represented a common sense majority of all americans for 14 years. my background is in civil rights. i believe in extending voting rights to all americans, making sure that every state has valid access based on the will of the people of those states. i'm not going to name any names. i can just say i feel a contradiction that we are still talking to several exceptional leaders. over the next couple of weeks or more, we will probably make an announcement as to whether or not we will give ballot access to a unity ticket. unity ticket means a republican and a democrat. we are talking to republicans

and democrats and independents. >> okay, let's just cut to the quick on this. >> sure. >> how many states are you in right now? >> 16. >> 16 states? >> we are active in 33 states. >> but you are on the ballot in 16 states? that's fine. there are 50 states plus territories that you need to be on the ballot for, number one. number two, it's february. >> yes. >> the presidential campaign pretty much comes to its moment in south carolina next week. the republican nominee will likely be selected at that point. i don't see nikki going much beyond south carolina. joe biden is the presidential nominee for the democrats. where do you -- what state does no labels take electoral college votes to win that stage from donald trump or joe biden? >> thank you, michael. this is not a one state

solution. >> you have to win one state. >> keep in mind in 1992 he had not gotten any state at this point. this is february. he got in later. he got on the ballot in all 50 states. that's our strategy to get on the ballot in all 50 states. we are active in all of the states. we are not saying that one swing state we're going to take over -- >> if donald trump and joe biden can point to a state and say we are going to -- i'm going to get florida's electoral college votes. i'm going to get south carolina's. i need to work on of the swing states. every state for no labels is a swing state. you have to work every state. tell me which state you win. look, you have to do the math and you have to understand how we elected president. we don't elect a president with the popular vote, we elect them with electoral college votes. >> we know that. >> those states have those

votes. he's in minnesota? is it montana? which state is no labels his best position of the 13 that you are in -- >> 16. >> 16 that you are in that you can say, we will take that state and when those electoral votes on election day? >> the reason why i am optimistic, we are just not on the ballot in 16 states. we have a majority of the people in those states that have not only signed so we can get on it. no one is just automatically getting on the ballot. it's a long entities process. we are very pleased with the voter access that we have gotten so far. we're going to keep pushing. you were asking me which state we are going to win. >> yeah. >> we plan to win the majority of the states that have the majority of the electoral college votes. >> you're not winning 270 electoral college votes. >> here's the thing. >> let's say one thing. we are in the state of

uncertainty. i don't think we should to speculate on what is going to happen. nobody really knows. what we do know is that the majority of the american people don't want to see a repeat of 2020. >> well, okay. doctor chavis, your point about not speculating is well taken. i would note there is no data or history to suggest a third party run that could win a substantial amount of electoral college votes. you don't have to win a substantial amount. to be president of the united states, someone has to hit 270. let's just say if it's joe biden, donald trump, and you all or whoever, your unity ticket, no one hits 270. the house of representatives gets to pick the president and in the senate gets to pick the vice president. that happens on january 6th. are you concerned about that

scenario? it's a real one and one that i believe you will have acknowledged. i know a number of former elected officials sent a letter to you all saying this is a concern that this could happen. >> we also have a concern. keep in mind the reason why we are getting access in all the states that we can, we intend to wind viability, first of all, of winning on the electoral college fund. it's not our intention or motive to wind up in the congress of the united states. >> do you all think, for the people that say no labels is potentially, it's going to hand this election to donald trump, what do you say to them? >> categorically, it's not our intention and it will not be our will to hand the election to donald trump. we're not going to spoil it for

anyone. >> every poll that i have seen, and i'm sure you've seen them as well, and i've talked to some of the folks that no labels, shows that that is exactly what happens. you are a candidate, that third party, even if it's not no labels, they will draw more from the democrats to -- >> that's not -- >> i'm glad you raised that. our polling doesn't show that. >> what is your polling show? >> it shows that we would take probably a lot of the independents -- >> independent voters are center-right voters in this country and they will -- >> center right, not center- left. >> they are center right. those center-right independent voters voted for joe biden in the last election. if you give them a third party option that appeals to their center-right inclinations, which is what you are doing, you're going to put a republican at the top of the ticket. you're not putting a democrat at the top of the ticket. be honest about that. >> well -- >> is that --

>> what i'm being honest about is that we are looking for a unity ticket. >> which party is at the top of the ticket? >> we have not made our decision. i can say for the record on your program this morning that we are talking to exceptional republicans,, exceptional democrats, and independent leaders and we will know in the next couple of weeks. >> we just want to know. >> i'm telling you where we are. >> i know we are out of time. the people, the concerns is that you are all doing this process in secret and they don't know -- no one from the labels will say who is on the list. >> it's not secret. >> where is the money coming from? >> it's not secret. >> who's on the list? >> we are talking to exceptional leaders. >> [laughter] >> how is that a secret? this is not the underground railroad. >> this is our candidate, exceptional leader. hello, america.

>> doctor chavis, i love you. >> bring it back in two weeks. >> you'll hear that? done, done. doctor ben chavis, thanks so much for waking up early. >> it's good to be with you. up next, the french ambassador to the united states is here. we're going to talk about donald trump's open disdain for nato and the death of alexei navalny. next hour, former trump fixer michael cohen joins us on his latest meeting with the manhattan d.a. ahead of his old boss's hush money criminal trial. you are watching the weekend.

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state hillary clinton at this weekend at the munich security conference. her warning comes days after donald trump tripled down -- i don't even know if we can say that. he tripled down on his promise to not defend nato countries if they did not pay enough for defense. in fact, he said he would encourage russia to attack them. meanwhile, donald trump has yet to say anything publicly about the death of alexei navalny. joining us now is the french ambassador to the united states ron billing. >> thank you so much. good morning to you. you have trump's remarks coming the same week that alexei navalny had and untimely death. i have to wonder about the conversation that is happening among the nato members about the future of nato. >> well, for most of us, we get the impression that we have to be more vocal about the facts. the facts are very simple. since two years, we are seeing

no difference. most of our countries are spending 2%, especially bigger economies like france and germany. we are behind the train. we spend much more than the united states on ukraine. i think it sets -- -- it's very important to have that in mind. the real question here, it's naturally about europe, european union spending. it's about ukraine and what is happening in ukraine. the clock is ticking and we need to supplement it because -- [inaudible] >> mister ambassador, you might have heard that we are in the middle of a presidential campaign here. >> just a little bit. i wanted to put up a treat from nikki haley. it has been more than 24 hours

since we learned four of the death of alexei navalny. we can have a president who sides with murderous thugs who want to destroy america. this goes off the question that we started with. if there is a complete collapse in the u.s. in the sense that you have a president sitting there who says no to nato, yes to putin, and yes to other thugs across europe and the middle east, how does nato, do you anticipate, respond? is it president macron? is it the prime minister of great britain? who emerges to sort of hold that coalition together in the face of what it be happening and, to some to, gary is already happening?

how does europe respond and who steps up and fills devoid that could emerge? >> we are stronger together. i think we should definitely be with the united states on that issue. what we need to make now is the case for what is at stake. it's not a regional issue warrior opinion issue. it's about the legacy of the greatest generation. it's the kind of a world that we want to leave our children and grandchildren. we have to be there together. when democracies are not up to the challenge, that's what happened in munich 85 years ago. we know the result. i think we have to stand together in our identity but this we have to stick together and we have to make ukraine win that war. >> donald trump doesn't believe, essentially, in helping ukraine. i think that is just a fair statement to make.

he is encouraging russia to do whatever he wants. i think he means vladimir food and by russia. i know that almost a week ago president macron met with the leaders of poland and germany. there is now a conversation about how european countries need to shore themselves up. how concerned on a scale of 1 to 10 is europe about the can turn of -- about the return of donald trump? >> the real challenge is really about ukraine. we have to make the case to the american people that europe is doing its part, and quite a big part, by the way, we spend 100 billion dollars. we are probably 50 billion more. last friday, our president signed another security agreement with ukraine. germany did the same. we committed over $10 million. the war is very costly for us.

we are spending something like 100 billion u.s. dollars to our economy. there's a big difference between us. part of this money is going back to the u.s., it quite dignified in part, both on what we are given to ukraine but also on our ministry. for the u.s., it's really also something that you have to have in mind. it's not a regional issue. it is a real challenge. we have to be together on that. >> michael and simone, i will spare the ambassador a question on domestic politics, but i do think it's important for the purposes of our conversation to bring up nikki haley's response. this is her on ex from saturday one week ago. donald trump encouraged putin to invade nato countries. now, it's been more than 24 hours since we learned of the death of alexei navalny. trump has yet to say his name. we can't have a president who sides with murderous thugs who want to destroy america.

here's the thing, michael. after you put yourself out there with a position like that, i'm not sure how she comes out and endorsed is donald trump. >> yeah. >> she doesn't. that is a problem. i know a lot of our european allies are kind of looking at this race unfolding here in the united states and are wondering to themselves, how does this play out? at the same time that you have that happening, ambassador, you have the new york times reporting. russia is beginning to pose a nuclear space threats. the agencies are divided on the likelihood that putin would go that far. even if russia places a nuclear weapon in orbit, officials are in agreement and their assessment that the weapon wouldn't be detonated. that is a new reality for us. regardless of the politics that we are dealing with in presidential elections, there

is still ongoing realities for nato and the united states relative to everything else that is potentially happening globally. how is your government responding to reports like this of potential russian behavior, also noting the bilateral security agreement that france has signed with zelenskyy? you are looking to shore up where you can and try to defend against the possibilities that putin is presenting. >> again, two years ago, i think we realized what was really -- we see it as a threat. we also see a lot of disinformation. we just identified a big system that we call -- with 193 sites for the fighting of our democracy fueling

disinformation. -- it's an illustration of what an authoritarian regime is. we have all this news about these new weapons and destabilization. russia is really a threat and we have to stick together. >> ambassador bili, one last question. what happens if the united states congress doesn't provide the aid needed for the united states to purchase a weapon to send to ukraine? what's your message to the united states congress? >> i think it's a huge responsibility. i think we are speaking about the legacy of the greatest generation. we are speaking about the world we have had for 75 yards which is -- [inaudible] there's a lot of today. we never have to forget that the ukrainian soldiers and people are at the front line and fighting for freedom. it's also -- >> ambassador bili, thank you

so much for being with us. still ahead on the weekend, michael cohen and previews donald trump's first criminal trial set to start next month. be sure to follow our show on social media. or handle everywhere is at the weekend msnbc.

there's nothing better than a subway series footlong. except when you add an all new footlong sidekick. like the philly with a new $2 footlong churro. sometimes the sidekick is the main event. you would say that. every epic footlong deserves the perfect sidekick. (christina) with verizon business unlimited, i get 5g, truly unlimited data, and unlimited hotspot data. every epic footlong so, no matter what, i'm running this kitchen. (vo) make the switch. it's your business. it's your verizon. that was a good first hour. >> yeah, i mean, we covered a

lot of ground. i really appreciate ambassador bili coming in and giving us the lay of the land from europe. i found it very interesting. he kept bringing it back to ukraine. he kept bringing it back to the fact that it's going to take all of us, not allowing the united states to take themselves out of the conversation. i don't think this white house wants to do that but donald trump does. >> i go back to the point that paola ramos was making earlier in the show. there is the infrastructure itself, right? there is the republican party. there are elected leaders who have that position. there's also now a swath of americans who bought in on this idea of america first, and isolationist policy. they are here in donald trump say that we don't need to be of -- even perhaps buying this idea that is not tethered to reality about nato members needing to pay their bills. they are internalizing that. even if he is not president again, that idea still persists. that, michael, it feels extremely dangerous to me. >> it is, it is.

the reality of it is that all of that changes dynamically if no labels put somebody up. that's out of this morning's conversation. that to me was probably the most treacherous part of all of this. exceptional leaders is not enough at this stage. don't pretend that you're not going to have the same impact. every number shows that you will. it really creates, i think, a problem for the electorate that is going to play out and not be good for democracy in the end. that is why i am sitting. >> i think where you sit is very close up to the front and the truth. this is not just no labels. there are so many other third parties now in this election than any other election since i've been able to vote. my first election was obama in 2008. i really think this scenario about not hitting 270 -- you

have to get 270 electoral votes. that is in the constitution. if you don't get 270, what we discussed about the 12th amendment does happen. that's why the house and senate are so important. i believe the control of the senate is also on the ballot in 2024. every member of the house representatives, folks better make sure -- >> speaker johnson could be picking the president. >> well, well, don't even get me started on the senate now. this is my coffee. let me just -- i'm going to need a fresh cup of coffee, y'all. y'all should get one as well. we have another jam-packed hour of the weekend coming up, including the new york times is suzanne craig. she knows that michael cohen, okay. we have former january 6th investigator marcus childress as well as former assistant d.a. catherine christian. you can guess what we are going to talk about. stay with us.

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