the connection. we really want to help venezuelans, they have been authorized to get work authorize asian to get temporary protected status to follow a path to refugee status. but i think we feel a sense of urgency, that we better do this, before they are viewed as homeless and or they are judged because they can't get a job or there is somehow in violation, or they didn't get something to their address. so, yes. i hope we are doing something. >> maybe a drop in the bucket, but to every one of those people, that's a life, that's a family, and it's amazing. kathleen arnold is the director of the refugee enforced program at depaul university. thanks for watching, you can catch me next saturday and sunday morning from 10 am to noon eastern. don't forget, velshi is available as a podcast, you can follow and listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. stay right where you, are inside with jen psaki begins right now.

>> okay, the writers of the courtroom drama that played out this week would probably get fire for how outrageous the script as. in the new york scene, the former president got hit with a 350 million dollar civil fraud judgment. and the start of his first criminal trial got circled on the calendar. in the georgia scene, playing out the same day, the fulton county district attorney defended herself against allegations of an improper relationship with another prosecutor. the law firm of weissmann and katyal is standing by to talk about that massive fine for trump, and the author of a book at the center of that testimony in georgia is going to join me as well. also today, the week started with trump encouraging russia to do whatever they want. and it ended with vladimir putin's top political opponent turning up dead. former national security adviser john bolton dealt with a russian dictator on trump's behalf, and he's going to join me live in just a few minutes. and, later -- got appointed to

fill diane feinstein's seat, she instantly became one of the most interesting people in washington. but she hasn't done a major sit- down interview, until now. there was a singular myth that helped launch donald trump's political career. a myth that lent him an air of legitimacy. somehow, his brand of snake oil salesman separated him from other political outsiders, other conspiracy theorists, and your basic loud at the end of the bar running his mouth. your mid, of course, is that donald trump was a successful, self-made new york businessman. responsible for big buildings, big profits, and big success. >> i'm a business person building buildings, and doing things all over the world, and i'm doing things and built a great company, i built a great company. >> let me tell you, folks. i built a great company, unbelievable company. >> my company has never been stronger. it's never been better. it is one great company.

>> i built a massive company, a great company. i built a phenomenal company, and we could run our country the way i run my company, we would have a country that you would be so proud of. >> there is no question, the self-made billionaire narrative is a nice story. but for anyone who actually paid attention to donald trump's years in business, it's clear what he actually was. and frankly, still is today. a con man, and a grifter. who benefited and or mostly from his father's wealth, and only stayed relevant due to his insatiable desire to be in the spotlight. he slapped his name on over priced products all over the place. that long held business strategy continued yesterday, when he pushed his, not making this up, official sneaker at sneakers on. in addition to slapping his name on overpriced merchandise all over the place, it is also public knowledge that trump sniffed contractors and refused to pay workers, that he paid

$25 million to settle the lawsuit over his bogus trump university grift. and he was forced to close his own charitable foundation, charitable, and pay $2 million for repeatedly misusing funds for his own interest. but this week, the story of donald trump the fraudster, that is substantial new chapter. because on friday, a judge ordered him to pay more than $350 million in damages, plus interest, that's a lot of money, and barred trump -- for three years. and let's just say, the trump world didn't take that so well. >> my father built a skyline of new york city. and this is the thing he gets? >> everyone screaming about russia, russia, russia. but the reality is, what we complain about in russia is happening right here in the united states. >> the damages and restitution should go to donald trump. >> unless the appeals process in new york comes to the rescue, new york has become a legal banana republic. >> if we're not successful, people are moving out of new york state. and if this happens, they're

going to move out at a much faster rate. >> he didn't build the new york skyline, and i also feel very confident that new york state will still be around if the judgment survives trump's appeal. but what this decision paints on trump is the truth that anyone that's been watching closely for decades. that donald trump is a fraud, that's his entire story. for decades. take a listen to something that new york attorney general letitia james said in her remarks on friday. >> the scale and the scope of donald trump's fraud is staggering. and so too is his ego. and his belief that the rules do not apply to him. today, we are holding donald trump accountable. we are holding him accountable for lying, cheating, and a lack of contrition, and for flooding the rules that all of us must play by. >> letitia james was of course

talking about her civil fraud case against trump and his company. her words could've easily applied to other cases, trump is still facing. because fraud is at the core of each of them. and she's right when she says donald trump doesn't think he should be held accountable for his lies and actions. we've known that for a very long time. but what this new massive penalty this week hammers home, is that donald trump has always been a fraud, and he's always been a cheat. we have no choice but to start today, and we are thrilled to, with our in-house law firm, everyone's favorite legal analysts, neil katyal is the former acting u.s. solicitor general, andrew weissmann is the former general counsel to the fbi, and a senior member of special counsel robert mueller's team. neil, i want to start their little, bit because what struck me is that if you look at these cases, from the new york criminal case to georgia to special counsel jack smith's dual, case they all have this on one common thing, one thing in common. fraud. and i was -- of course, with a.g.'s comments, which could be applied anywhere.

but if you're a prosecutor, how do you look at this theme of drifting and fraud over the course of decades, and in multiple cases? >> yeah, so first, i just want to make a comment about what don junior said, equivocating these judgments to what happens in russia. in russia, they literally execute political opponents. the trumps can't even condemn that. indeed, trump is coming in the court, trying to seek absolute immunity so that he is president could, as he said, allow the execution of his political opponents. and so, to me, the theme, john, is not just fraud, which is a common theme throughout all of these cases. but also this idea of impunity, that he is above the law. he goes into court, he's been saying -- this even before he became president in 2016, he committed various crimes, he said you couldn't prosecute me because i'm no sitting president of the office, and then when he's impeached, says you have to prosecute me, you can't just impeach me. and then when he leaves his

office as president, he says you can't prosecute me, because you didn't fully impeach me. the whole thing is just a house of cards. at every turn, it's about saying i, donald, trump am above the law. and that's why this decision, i think, was so important this week, by judge engoron. because it attacks one of the things trump is most proud of. his supposed business acumen, and so the judgments not just -- to his business into his wallet, it's a blow to his ego and it's a blow to his claim that he's above the law. >> and such a good point on putin. trump has an affinity for putin, this has been on my mind and i'm going to be talking about it later in the show. andrew, let me go to you, because there's a lot of practical questions here. obviously, trump now owes a lot of money, i think it's fair to say. he has not, if i'm correct, 30 days, about. so what happens in that time period, when we get to 30 days, if he appeals? what percentage does he have to

pay? basically, what does it look like over the next couple of weeks? >>. sure. so there's about 350 million dollar judgment, as you said, there's also interest that's about another hundred million. he also owes about 90 million to e. jean carroll for sexual assault and repeated defamation. so we are now actually talking about some real money for anybody. so add that all up, and what he has to do is he gets to appeal both the federal e. jean carroll case, that's about 90 million. he gets to appeal, which is part of our process, the judgment that just came out on friday. however, what is required is in 30 days of the judge angering decision. he has to either pay the money, or he has to post a bond. >> the total? >> yes, the total. so that is going to be difficult, because he has loans

outstanding to deutsche bank. when you take a loan out and his situation, he gave a personal guarantee, there are leans on his property, they're usually our commitments he has to make in terms of cash reserves. so in other words, there's a lot of encumbered assets. so he needs to either figure out how he's going to pay that, or find a bond company that's willing, for a fee, to put the money up. and the reason, by the way, is clear. this is the court saying, you know, if you want to appeal, that's fine. but we need to protect the plaintiffs, because while you are appealing, there has to be a pool of money available to them. and then one quick comment is the decisions that have come down are quite interesting because you have somebody using trust me to run the country for four years. but you have judge engoron, as you said, john, saying i don't trust you to run your own company in new york for three years, and i'm going to require two independent monitors to oversee you. and this is the same person he was saying, trust me to run the

country. >> it's quite an important point. what he did in the past is really telling for how he governed, and how he would govern in the future. let me ask, you neil, and you just referenced this. we were talking a lot about the civil judgment that came out on friday, but of course, he does owe almost $90 million in the e. jean carroll case. he promised to appeal, he hasn't notably appeals yet. what do you make of that? >> no doubt he will appeal, john. the delay is always his tactic, and so he's trying to do that. but andrew is exactly right. even if he files these two appeals, he is going to be required to post a bond for almost half a billion dollars, and maybe trump thinks that he can get mexico to pay for, it i don't know. but i think it's going to be incredibly difficult, particularly because judge engoron's order blocks him from having any dealings with any new york licensed bank, which is almost every bank in the

united states. so there may be other people, people in other countries that want to lend him that money and pay the judgment. but it's going to be a very difficult thing for him. >> to pay, no question. the other piece, this was a big legal week. i'm sure you are both feeling that, with lack of sleep and too much coffee, for sure. but the other big piece of use is of course there's now a date circled on the calendar for the first criminal trial. trump's new york criminal trial began march 25th. i've been thinking a lot about this, in terms of how we refer to this case. because we often shorthanded, it's a little edgier, i suppose, as the hush money case. it's salacious sounding, it's kind of shorthanded that way. but it's really about election interference. and there's of course a lot of legal components of this. so i wanted to ask you just how people should understand the seriousness of the case, the case itself, should we stop calling it the hush money case, what's your take? >> yeah, so i think it's really important to think about that

monitor, how short of shorthanded. when i think of it, i don't think it's hush money. first of, all that's not illegal. that's the means by which donald trump was keeping information from the 2016 electorate. he did not want it out into the mainstream, and so he was using hush money, and then the crime is that to do that he was falsifying business records. i think of it in the same way when we are thinking about the first impeachment, which involved the threats and the withholding of funds to president zelenskyy in ukraine. he didn't call it the congressional funds case. that was really a case about wanting to have an investigation into joe biden and his son, and to not tell the american public that he essentially bought the investigation, by withholding congressional funds. that was a form of election fraud. and i think of it the same way, and that is i think how they've

consistently talked about it. so i think it sort of belittles the case just to save hush money. but whatever you call it, this is, i think it's a serious case. one of the things that judge -- he was overseeing it decided this week, in a decision, is he said these are serious felony charges. he disagreed with the defense claim by donald trump that these are not serious. judge merchan joined judge -- a federal judge, she said exactly the same thing, rejecting donald trump's effort to take the case federal, saying no, it stays in state court and these are serious federal charges. having said that, it is up to the state to prove each and every one of these crimes, beyond a reasonable doubt. and of course, at trial, donald trump will be presumed innocent. but you have your right to think about how we talk about the case. >> we will work on that. maybe i'll come back with a few thoughts on it in the next few weeks. neal katyal and andrew

weissmann, thank you as always for all of your wisdom. coming up, for too many leading republicans have once again weirdly embraced the messaging vladimir putin. during week one, his leading opponent, died in jail. trump's former national security advisor will join me to weigh in on that. but first, one specific book was referenced repeatedly, out of context, during funny wilson's testimony in fulton county this week. -- about the attempt to overturn the 2020 election in georgia, and he joins me after a quick break. we will be right back. every epic footlong deserves the perfect sidekick. order one with your favorite subway series sub today. my moderate to severe plaque psoriasis held me back... now with skyrizi, i'm all in with clearer skin. ♪ things are getting clearer...♪

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raising two kids in the city. deeply concerned that city hall is allowing crime and lawlessness to spread. now we can do something about it by voting yes on prop e. a common sense solution that ensures we use community safety cameras to catch repeat offenders and hold them accountable. vote yes on e. so this week i was reminded of the second season of true detective and lost. you know the ones. where i feel like the rioters gonna lost the plot. in this week in fulton county georgia a lot of people lost the plot, because the original premise remains the most important, so maybe it's party time for a little bit of a refresher, a quick when i promise. this story has a few parts, so

bear with me. part one, donald trump attempted to overthrow a election and it was on tape caught doing. in part to, district attorney fani willis -- because in the evidence she found to a grand jury. part three is, that grand jury decided that the evidence was fraud enough to indict 19 people, including donald trump. those people were booked in the fulton county jail. part four, some of those 19 defendants end up pleading guilty. that is how we end up at part five, an attempt by the -- derail the case based on allegations of an improper relations between fani willis and a lead prosecutor she hired to work with our team, nathan wade. these allegations -- jaw- dropping day of testimony this day from willis herself. >> they've been intrusive into peoples personal lives, you're confused, you think i'm on trial. these people are on trial for trying to steal an election for 2020, i'm not on trial no matter how hard you try to put me on trial. >> that kind of sums it up.

funny wellness is on the witness stand because of a motion filed by former trump white house aide michael roman. she's trying to -- conflict of interest to eventually force willis off the case. will that happen? we don't know. it is all of this a huge distraction? of course it is. it is important to remember that none of what happened in part five changes anything about parts one through four. joining me now is investigative journalist -- michael isikoff, he's a co-author about a new book -- find me the votes a hard charging georgia prosecutor, a rogue president, and the plot to steal an american election. it somehow became a focal point of this week's hearing. let me to start their, because it was used in the hearing repeatedly. some of it, and i've heard you say, it's a bit out of context. give us the context of actually how you talk about her in the book. >> sure. surreal moment. the lawyers for michael roman and the other trump defendants are trying to prove that there

was some sort of corrupt bargain between fani willis and nathan wade to give him the job so he -- now nathan way can now take her on lavish vacations. to sort of promote that case her to make that case they pointed to a passage in our book where we talk about the financial troubles that fani willis was having after she ran for a judgeship in 2018. they said what this shows was that she was financially destitute when she became dea and so therefore their theory somehow make sense. she's impoverished, and she needs a source of somebody to take around the world. in fact if they read the passage a little more closely we are talking about her financial straits in 2018 after that she got it judgeship that paid to six filmmaker salary, her law practice picked up and at the time she ran for dea she

was actually fairly okay, but they didn't read the next few paragraphs of the book that totally undercut the point they are trying to make. >> context is so important. i interviewed her number of times you can york author dan clayman, are you surprised? i guess it's hard to predict all sides that should became the target of this? she's a well-known tough prosecutor, she's also black women? >> i think we can say it was stupid of her to get into this relationship with nathan wade for no other reason it gave ammunition to critics and the defendants to make hay of that but when you cut through its the whole argument is so strained, the premise is that there was a corrupt bargain between fani willis nathan wade to hire him and then so he could take her on vacations and therefore she had a vested

interest in keeping the case going. there is no evidence of that. there's no evidence that the relationship between wade and willis in any way prejudiced michael roman or the rights of the any other defendants, absolutely none. needless to say, and a complete distraction from the rather serious charges here. and we make the argument in the book that the georgia case is in some ways the most significant case, trump didn't do what he did on his own he had an army of confederates, coconspirators from rudy giuliani to mark meadows to john eastman all of them are indicted as part of a conspiracy case this is the only conspiracy case that touches on all the people who were involved in trump's efforts to overturn the election. >> you chose to write about georgia because it sounds like it was such a web, there's so many details in this book which

is why it's important to talk about them and not the sidebar. you have quite a story about jordan fuchs in their, so tell me a little bit about that. >> this is one of the most incredible stories of the whole 2020 election battle, here's this non political aide political consultant 30 years old, very -- who on her own makes this unilateral spur of the moment decision to keep the phone call that trump is having with raffensperger. why? because raffensperger's her boss she knows the dangers of getting into a conversation with donald trump, who is suing raffensperger at the time how he would distort the conversation and you never know -- she's on the phone call the whole time. she puts around me but she tapes the call. and as a result we have the most compelling evidence of

trump's pressure on raffensperger on state officials all through the results the election results. we call it arguably the gutsiest and most consequential act of the entire postelection battle and nobody knew it. this young woman who did it on her own. >> it's remarkable. we have to let you go, which i'm sorry bummed about because i can ask you 100 more questions, this book is so good, there's a -- lindsey graham that everyone should look up, thank you so much for joining me and we'll look more to have you back, we'll talk more about this. i really appreciated. coming up, alexei navalny -- russian -- appeasement of vladimir putin reach a whole new level. we have a few sought to share about that. plus national security adviser john -- so it's a good thing he's standing by here in washington. stay with us, we'll be right back. with us, we'll be right back.

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donald trump and the maga wing of the republican party just cannot seem to quit russian dictator vladimir putin. remember, it was this time just last week when we were all talking about trump encouraging russia to attack our nato allies. >> no i would not protect you in fact i would encourage them to do whatever they how they want. >> i would encourage them to do whatever that heck they want. i want you to keep that sentence in mind as you follow me here, and after trump said that lots of republican rushed to his defense, some even tried to rationalize putin's aggression. >> we force this issue. we kept forcing nato all the way to eastern europe and putin just got tired of it. you can tell putin is on top of his game. they can't win, it's not gonna happen, someone needs to negotiate. donald trump will have it over with within a matter of weeks. >> ukraine can't win, putin is on top of his game, says

football coach turned united states senator and apparent putin fanboy tommy tuberville. this week, passed republicans -- spiked a bill that would've provided billions of dollars in funding for ukraine at a time when russia is gaining ground. just to recap, you've got donald trump encouraging russia to do whatever the hell they want, you've got a united states senator praising putin for being on top of his game, and you've got house republicans choking off crucial aid to the country russia invaded. oh, and i almost forgot. we've also got one of the most popular right-wing media personalities in the country parading around like moscow like some sort of deranged branded massacre. >> how does russia, a country we're told is a gas station with nuclear weapons have a subway station that normal people used to get to work and home every single day that's nicer than anything in our country? >> all right, here we go. so i guess you put in ten rubles here, and you get it back when you put the cart

back. so it's free, but there's an incentive to return it and not just bring it to your homeless encampment. >> low carb lifestyle is not swept russia, thank heaven because look at that. >> this is russian wine it's from crimea which not only has the warm water naval base but also is the source of most of the grapes in this part of russia for wine. >> yes, that crimea, which russia illegally annex from ukraine. apparently tucker likes their wine. here's the thing, everything i just mentioned happened before friday when the world learned that vladimir putin's main political rival alexei navalny had been found dead in a russian penal colony. anyone who knows anything about russia knows that of course vladimir putin is most likely responsible. of course donald trump has had absolutely nothing to say about navalny's death. he gave a two-hour speech last night talking about all sorts of stuff didn't say a thing about it. after all, he thinks putin

should do whatever the hell he wants, his words not mine. but trump has given us a clue about what he thinks he should be able to do to his political rivals in this country, much like his pal vladimir putin. >> do you agree with your lawyers what they said on tuesday that you should not be prosecuted, or could not be prosecuted if you ordered s.e.a.l. team six to kill a political rival. >> if a president of the united states does not have immunity, he will be totally ineffective. >> donald trump doesn't just like putin, he clearly does, he wants to be like him. his defenders in the republican party are all for it, too many of them are. you better believe russia is watching all of this. donald trump's former national security adviser john bolton is standing by here in washington, and he joins me next. washingto and he joins me next. deodorant. everywhere. 4 out of 5 gynecologists would recommend whole body deodorant, which gives you 72 hour odor protection from your pits to your- (sfx: deoderant being sprayed) secret whole body deodorant. with the freestyle libre 3 system...

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imitate vladimir putin i was looking the other way, his top political rival has just turned up dead. i can't think of anyone better to talk to who's sat -- vladimir putin himself, on behalf of trump himself, joining me now is donald trump's former national security advisor ambassador john bolton. what we were just talking about this during the break, this has been quite a week. start with trump saying that russia can do whatever they want as it relates to nato countries, continue with the complete standstill with aid to ukraine something they desperately need -- and it ended of course with the death of alexei navalny. you've sat in a lot of these rooms, many of them. i just want to ask you, how does putin consume what's been happening here in the united states, trump's words or a lack of words in some cases. >> i think think easy things moving in his direction. he really outdid himself in terms of disinformation a couple days ago by reporter asked what do you think of biden versus trump and he said while biden is predictable and

so on, implying he was endorsing biden. >> what did you make of that when you heard that? >> it's a clear disinformation efforts to give trump the opportunity, which he is foolish enough to -- i thought that was an actual compliment to me. if trump is elected there will be celebrations in the kremlin, there's no doubt about it. if it's putin -- thinks he's an easy mark. >> easy, easy to manipulate. >> this week there is some pretty big news about trump having to pay now, it's $450 million from just this week with interest. you are familiar with how foreign capitals think about these things, are you worried about trump having all of these money he owes and being a target in that way of people like putin and other foreign autocrats? >> i think it's gonna result in him having to liquidate some of his properties, i'm don't see where he's gonna get the cash although it's not really a near term problem they'll appeal you have to post bond of course, but i think these are the things that really affect him

most immediately because this is money, and let's face it, with donald trump cares most about most of all is donald trump, and particularly to donald trump's money. >> for an autocrats, you look -- you say he's a good target. when they look at him and say i, he's a good target, he owes a ton of money, he has to liquidate assets, you might not even have it. >> i think this is one of the demonstrations by trump really is not fit for office. he is consumed by these troubles, his family is consumed by them, and i think foreigners will try to take advantage of it one way or another. they may be doing it already. >> let me ask you about navalny because alexei navalny is of course a very prominent opposition leader he has bravely been in jail, he spent 300 plus days in sort of an isolated's freezing cold cell, democrats and republicans not enough republicans i will say have spoken out nikki haley has, trump has been completely silence he had a two-hour speech yesterday, he said nothing. what do you make of that?

>> heaven forbid he say anything critical of vladimir putin. accidents don't happen in those kinds of russian prison camps. when navalny's mother asked him to take care of the body, they refused to give it to her and they told her -- >> because they wanted to have an autopsy. >> they told her the cause of death was sudden death syndrome. i'm sure like to know what that is maybe it means you're alive one minute and then the next i don't know what else it can mean. four years ago when navalny was a victim of an attempted assassination by poisoning, other people immediately condemned what was obviously the kremlin's weapon of choice against its opponents, poisoning. trump didn't comment on it, said he didn't have information to judge. he's only the president of the united states that point. it's obviously part of the pattern he simply doesn't want to criticize's friend putin because in trump's mind if he's got a good relationship with putin the u.s. relation has a good relationship with russia. this is the kind of thing that

tells putin that trump simply doesn't know what he's doing. >> there is also been alarming news this week about putin's reported efforts to put in nuclear weapon minced base to target american satellites. there's not a ton we know about it exactly but it did make some news this week. the ban on nuclear weapons in space was among the topics that putin said was on his agenda to speak with trump in helsinki. you are the national security adviser at the time, trump did a lot of that one-on-one. was it a topic that came up or was discussed in any way? >> i don't believe so they say it's one-on-one but they're always two interpreters, one for each side. i will say that my staff immediately after the one-on- one ended went to the u.s. interpreter and said what did they talk about, most of it was about syria and putin did most of the talking. so i consider that a victory, the last time trump is actually saying anything to vladimir putin that's a good thing, nothing came out of it, we add a lunch right after that and i'm confident nothing sensitive

was discussed. >> there's no question, and you've talked about this a fair amount and i'm even familiar with this from my time in the national security world. every country is watching what is happening globally and i want to ask you about president xi and how he is watching say the events of the past couple of weeks where the dysfunction in washington has meant that there is no funding currently moving forward and no clear path to support ukraine so putin has a fair free game there and they have of course aggression that they are considering as it relates to taiwan. and other territories in the region. how do they watch this, they think we're safe from the u.s. there's nothing that's gonna happen? >> they're exuberant in beijing. remember, this aid package should include aid to taiwan which can use it immediately, if they could get their hands on it. this is the sort of navel gazing that america sometimes gets into which is foreign adversaries take advantage of an invasion right now they're looking at the war in ukraine, they're looking at the war in

the middle east and they're saying to themselves the biden incent intention is subverted by two wars, a difficult presidential campaign, what should we be doing to take advantage of the united states? >> i'm surprised actually we haven't seen more trouble along china's indo-pacific periphery, it may come. looking at donald trump the only question in my mind if trump is reelected is whether the bigger celebration will be in the kremlin or in beijing, because they to see donald trump as an easy mark. >> as an easy. mark some of the biggest authoritarian dictator is the world see trump as an easy mark, i think that's quite a point for people to sit with, ambassador john bolton thank you so much for joining me. >> coming up, will -- a major sit-down interview since she got into the senate, until our conversation this week, i can't tell you how i am excited about this one we talked about a lot of issues and just listen to what my friend michelle maddow said when she found out about this we are back after this.

>> i'm not going to inquire live on television how you got that interview, but i am going to buttonholed you next you we are both in the same place because i'm very jealous. very

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and i have mouths to feed. big show coming up, so we got ours and that blue bandage? never goes out of style. i prioritize my health... also, the line was short. didn't get a covid-19 shot in the fall? there's still time. book online or go to your local pharmacy. less than three weeks after california governor gavin newsom appointed laphonza butler to fill the late diane feinstein senate seat, butler announced he would not be

running in 2024. in a statement to her california constituents she quoted muhammad ali saying don't count the days make the days count. she certainly doing just that. i sat down with senator -- to talk about her journey before, during, and after congress. >> february is of course black history month, there's only been three black women who have been in the senate in history. our country has been around a long time, it's a startling small number. what are the biggest barriers, do you think? >> when you look at an incredible public servant like stacey abrams or val demings in florida, or chief justice cheri beasley in north carolina, three incredible public servants, leaders who are willing to put themselves out there to be evaluated and judged, interrogated, all of them fell short of becoming governor or even achieving the

level of united states senate. there remains barriers around the perception of black women, and their leadership. there remains barriers in terms of the stereotypes that are applied to black women. not even in the u.s. senate today some colleagues apply those stereotypes to me. >> how have you experienced that? >> you have such a great temperament as if they expect what, >> that you're angry? >> that is an interesting question, isn't it. you just have the right approach to being in the u.s. senate. again, i think it is potentially well intended. if i start with assuming no motivation or ill intent i think there's just a blindness for the stereotypes that are

applied. sometimes willful, it's a willful dismissal of what black women bring to the table and the voices that we bring to every room. we make sure that we are not just in the room representing ourselves we bring our children our communities are pta our church, to every table. sometimes those voices show up with the demand of the community that we represent, but there remains real barriers and i experienced them today. >> what do you say to your daughter when you're governor called to you and asked you to serve in the senate? >> she said well, would it mean that you're gonna be gone more? i was like yeah she says well doesn't mean that you're gonna always come back? i said, of course. she says will you always work to keep me safe? absolutely. and this role is a way for me to do that, at an even bigger scale. and not just you, but your

classmates. she said, then you should do it. >> weather-wise nine-year-old. let's talk about congress, because you are an insider now but you're also an outsider, you have such an interesting perspective. there's a pretty -- dysfunction of the past couple weeks, where republicans in congress to cut bipartisan agreement -- they tainted for what we're clearly political reasons. talk to me a little bit about how you view that over the past couple weeks? >> that activist in me, that advocated me, the person who's taken long bus trips with the community activists in immigration spaces in los angeles that part of me was very disappointed in the agreement that was reached and the senator in me, i sort of felt bad for senator langford. i spent a little bit of time

with him, particularly on the plane to go to see senator feinstein's funeral. >> oh wow, interesting. did you know that for than that? >> i did not know him before that, but to see how he embraced across party lines on that plane go into that funeral service made me more curious about him. i have had exchanges with him and understand him to be conservative for sure but willing to engage meaningfully and on the substance and that's how he approached these negotiations. i have been there for now a little bit over for months and i have seen a lot of how the inside works in a way that surprises me, disappoints me, frustrates me, angers me but most importantly i think fuels

me. to really understand what my presence means in this moment. and how government truly can be a difference maker when we choose to work on behalf of the american people. >> let's talk about the presidential race of course because it's on everybody's mind. when you hear people like governor nikki haley say a vote for joe biden is a vote for kamala harris, i know what i hear, but what's most important is what hugh here when you hear her say that? >> i think that ambassador haley is unfortunately perpetuating the dog whistles of divisive politics and frankly should be called on it. my response to her is yes it is and america has demonstrated that they are ready, willing, and able to celebrate candidates who are experienced

who are qualified, and have the interest of the american people at heart. that has been vice president harris at every turn. >> you're not running in the 2024, you're also made clear you're not endorsing anyone in the senate race. what can we expect from you next? >> i feel like my life has been one of service, marrying -- who really inspires me and convince me to serve on the board of the children's defense fund once said to me the services the rent you pay -- and the life i have lived is a poor kid from a one-stop lie town is a life that i owe so much and service will always be a part of what i want to do, and what exactly looks like i'm open to. >> it sounds like you could run for office in the future, that's what i'm hearing here. >> i always say to my daughter, never say never, honey. never say never. it is not a door that i have

closed, it's never one that i thought would be open for me. now that it is opened i think i have a responsibility to leave it open for how it is that i can best continue to serve and pay rent for the life that i've lived. >> my thanks to senator butler for spending sometime this week at howard university, and we are going to post our full conversation on our msnbc youtube channel. i've got one more thing to tell you about before we go today, that's coming up after a quick break. up after a quick break. ure to provide soothing relief. a nose in need deserves puffs indeed. america'otue

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>> we are already working on a big show for tomorrow night at eight pm eastern. house speaker, nancy pelosi, will be here. i have so many things to ask her about as she returns from the munich security conference. including her special moment with -- following her husband's death, and her -- letter zelenskyy. once e. jean carroll was reference in a speech lawsuit, her attorney, weighs in on just how the former president could go before they bring him back to oregon. for now, stay right where you are, because as much more news coming up on msnbc. on msnbc. >> coming up, msnbc's joy reid joins me in a bit to talk about all the legal fines and fees donald trump now needs to pay, plus, her new best