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350 million dollar civil fraud judgment, and the start of his first criminal trial got circled on the calendar. in the charges seen, playing at the same day, the fulton county district attorney defended herself against allegations -- improper relationship with another prosecutor. -- massive fine for trump, and the author of the book at the center of that testimony in georgia is going to join me as well. also today, the week started with trump encouraging russia to do whatever the hell they walked, and it ended with vladimir putin's top political opponent turning up dead. former national security adviser john bolton dealt with a russian dictator on trump's behalf, and he's gonna join me live in just a few minutes. and later, when senator laphonso butler got appointed -- she instantly became one of the most interesting people in washington. but he hasn't done a major interview until now.

there was a singular myth that helped launch donald trump's political career. a myth that lent him an air of legitimacy. somehow, his brand of snake oil salesman separated him from either political outsiders, either conspiracy theorists, and you're basically i owned guy at the end of the bar running his mouth. mid was that donald trump was a successful, self-made new york businessman responsible for big buildings, big profits, and big success. >> i'm a business person building buildings all over the world, i'm building things, i built a great company. >> let me tell you, folks. i built a great company, unbelievable company. my company has never been stronger. it's never been better. it is one great company. i built a massive company, a great company. i built a phenomenal company. and if we could run our country the way i've run my company, we would have a country that you would be so proud of.

we >> there's no question -- billionaire narrative is a nice story. but for anyone who actually paid attention to donald trump's years in business, it's clear what he actually was. and, frankly still is today. a con man and a grifter who benefited enormously from his father's wealth and only stayed relevant due to his insatiable desire to be in the spotlight. -- slapped his name on overpriced projects all over the place. stay, even a board game. -- official sneaker at sneaker calm. in addition to slapping his name on over praised merchandise all over the place, it's also public knowledge that trump gift -- lawsuit over his bogus trump university grift, and he was forced to change -- closes on charitable foundation and paid $2 million for repeatedly misusing funds for his own interest. but this week, the story of

donald trump the fraudster got a substantial new chapter. because on friday, a judge ordered him to pay more than $350 million in damages, plus interest. a lot of money. and by trump from serving as an officer or director of any new york corporation for three years. and let's just say that trump world didn't take that so well. >> my father built the skyline of new york city, and this is the things he gets? >> everyone screaming about russia, russia, russia. the reality is what we complain about in russia is happening right here in the united states. >> the damages and restitution should go to donald trump. >> unless the appeals process -- new york has become a legal banana republic. >> when i'm successful, new york state is gone. people are moving out of new york state. because of this, they're gonna move much faster. >> well, build the new york skyline, and also feel fairly confident that new york state will still be a round of the judgment survives trump

subpoena. but what this decision paints onshore as the truth. that anyone who is been watching closely has known for decades. that donald trump is a fraud. that's his entire story, for decades. take a listen to something that new york turning general letitia james said in her remarks on friday. >> the scale and the scope of donald trump's fraud is staggering. and so too is his ego, and his belief that the rules do not apply to him. today, we are holding donald trump accountable. we are holding him accountable for line, cheating, and a lack of contrition, and for flouting the rules that all of us must play by. >> james is of course talking about her civil fraud case against trump and his company. but her words could've easily applied to other cases trump is still facing. because fraud is at the core of each of them. and she's right when she says

donald trump doesn't think he should be held accountable for his actions. we've known that for availing time. but what this new massive penalty this week hammers home is that donald trump has always been a fraud, and he's always been a cheat. we had no choice but to start today, and we're thrilled to, with our in-house law firm. everybody favorite legals. we'll talk to -- andrew weissmann is the former general counsel at the fbi and a senior member of robert mueller's team. i want to start their. because what struck me is that if you look at these cases, from the new york criminal case, suspenseful counsel jack smith's case, they all have one thing in common. fraud. and i was struck, of course, they just played -- could be applied anywhere. but if you're a prosecutor, how do you look at kind of this theme of drifting and fraud over the course of decades, and in multiple cases? >> first, i just want to make a

comment about what don jr. said equivocating these judgments to what happens in russia. no, in russia, they literally execute political opponents. the trumps can't even condemned that. and indeed, trump is coming into court trying to seek absolute immunity so that he, as president, could, as he said, allow the execution of his political opponents. and so, to me, 15, jen, is not just fraud, which is a common theme throughout all of these different cases. but also, this idea of impunity. that he is above the law. he goes into court, he's been saying this even before he became president in 2016. he committed various crimes. he said, well you can prosecute me because i'm no sitting president in office. and then, when he's impeached, size, you have to prosecute me. you can't just impeach me. and, then when he leaves his office as president, he says, well, you can prosecute me because you have to fully impeach me. the whole thing is just a house of cards at every turn. it's about saying, i, donald

trump, and above the law. and that's why this decision, i think, was so important this week by judge engoron. it attacks one of the things trump's most proud of. his supposed business acumen. so the judgment is not just a ploy to his business and his wallet. it's a play to his ego, and it's a blow to his claim that he's above the law. >> such a good point uncut. trump has an affinity for putin, this is been on my mind, we'll be talking about it later in the show. and you, let me go to you here. there's a lot of practical questions here. obviously, trump now is a lot of money, i think it's fair to say. he has, if i understand it correctly, but you correctly if i'm misstating, 30 days, about. so what happens in that time period? when we get to 30 days, if he appeals, what percentage this ef2 pay? basically, what does it look like over the next couple of weeks. >> share. so there's about 350 million dollar judgment, as you said. this also interest.

that's about another hundred million. he also is about 90 million to e. jean carroll for sexual assault and repeated defamation. so we're now actually talking about some real money for anybody. so, add that all up, and what he has to do if he gets to appeal both the federal e. jean carroll case, that's 90 million. he gets to appeal, which is part of our process, the judgment that just came out on friday. however, what is required is in 30 days of the judge in garland decision. he has to either pay the money, where he has to -- the total. and so, that is gonna be difficult. because he has loans outstanding, like, for instance, deutsche bank. when you take alone at in his situation, you get a personal guarantee. very leans on his properly. they're usually commitment siesta macon terms of cash

reserves. so in other words, there's a lot of encumbered assets. so he needs to figure out either how he's gonna pay that, or find a bond company that's willing, for a fee, to put the money up. and the reason, by the way, is clear. this is the court saying, you know, if you want to appeal, that's fine, but we need to protect the plaintiffs. because while your peeling, there has to be a pool of money available to them. and one just quick comment is the decisions that have come down are quite interesting. because you have someone who's saying, trust me to run the country for four years. when you have judging going, as you said, jen, saying, i don't trust you to run your own company in new york for three years, and i'm gonna require two independent monitors to oversee you. and this is the same person who saying, trust me to run the country. >> it's quite an important point. when he did in the past is really telling for how he governed, and how he would govern in the feature. let me ask, you neal.

and you just referenced this. we've been talking a lot about the civil judgment that came out friday. but of course, he does olmos $90 million in the e. jean carroll case. he promised to appeal. he hasn't, notably, appealed yet. what do you make of that? >> and no doubt he will appeal, jen. delay is always his tactic. yield try to do that. but andrews exactly right. even if he files these two appeals, he's gonna be required to post bond for almost a half a billion dollars, and maybe trump things that you can get mexico to pay for it. i don't know. but i think it's gonna be incredibly difficult, particularly because judge engoron's order blocks him from having any dealings with any new york licensed bank. which is almost every bank in the united states. any serious bank. now, there may be rich other people, maybe people and other countries that want to lend him that money to pay the judgment, but it's gonna be a very difficult thing for him. >> to pay.

no question. the other piece -- this was a big legal leak. i'm sure you are both feeling that with lack of sleep and too much coffee, for sure. but the other big piece of news this week, of course, is now a date circled on the calendar for the first criminal trial. trump's new york criminal trial will begin march 25th. i've been thinking a lot about this in terms of how we refer to this case. because we often shorthanded, it's a little edgier, i suppose, as the hush money case, great? it's salacious sounding, it sort of been shorthanded that way. but it's really about election interference. and i, of course, a lot of legal components of this. sanjay, i wanted to ask you how people should understand the seriousness of the case, the case itself, should we stop calling it the hush money case? what's your take? >> yeah. so i think it's really important to think about that monica. how one sort of short hands it. when i think about it, i don't think it's hush money. first of all, let's not illegal. that's the means by which

donald trump was keeping information from the 2016 electorate. he did not want it out into the mainstream. and so, he was using hush money, and then the crime is that to do that, he was falsifying business records. i think of it in the same way when we were thinking about the first impeachment, which involved the threats, and the withholding of funds to president zelenskyy in ukraine. you didn't call it the congressional funds case. that was really a case about wanting to have an investigation into joe biden and his son, and to not tell the american public that he essentially bought investigation by withholding congressional funds. that was a form of election fraud. and i think of it the same way, and that is, i think, how alvin bragg has consistently talked about it. so i think it cited belittles the case just to say hush money. but whatever you call it, you know, this is, i think, a

serious case. one of the things that judge -- who is overseeing it decided this week, in a decision, is he said these are serious felony charges. he disagreed with the defense claim by donald trump that these are not serious. judge merchan joined judge aileen -- she said exactly the same thing, in rejecting donald trump's effort to take the case federal, saying that it stays in state court, and these are serious federal charges. having said that, it is up to the state to prove each and every one of these crimes beyond a reasonable doubt. and of course, at trial, donald trump will be presumed innocent. but i think you're right to think about how we talk about the case. >> we'll work on that. maybe i'll come back with a few thoughts on it in the next few weeks. you'll catch law, and you weissmann, thank you, as always, for -- vladimir putin. his leading opponent, alexei

navalny, died in jail. trump's former national security adviser will join me to weigh in on that. but, first one specific book was rooted rinsed repeatedly out of context during fani willis is -- the time to overturn the 2020 election in georgia, and he joins me after a quick break. we'll be right back. break. we'll be right back. when moderate to severe ulcerative colitis takes you off course. put it in check with rinvoq, a once-daily pill. when i wanted to see results fast, rinvoq delivered rapid symptom relief and helped leave bathroom urgency behind. check. when uc tried to slow me down... i got lasting, steroid-free remission with rinvoq. check. and when uc caused damage rinvoq came through

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that ensures we use community safety cameras to catch repeat offenders and hold them accountable. vote yes on e. so this week, i was reminded of the second seasons of true detective and lost. you know the ones. we're phil kind of like the raiders lost the plot. in this week in fulton county, georgia, a lot of people lost the plot. because the original premise remains the most important. so maybe it's time for a bit of a refresher. a quick one, i promise. because the story has a few parts. bear with me here. -- donald trump attempted to overthrow an election, and he was on tape, caught doing it. part two, district attorney fani willis -- part three, that

grand jury decided the evidence was strong enough to indict 19 people, including donald trump. those 19 people were booked in the fulton county jail. part for, some of those 19 defendants ended up pleading guilty. and then that isn't part how we end up landing on part five. and it's a buy one of the remaining defendants to derail the case based on allegations of an improper relationship between funding willis and the lead prosecutor she hired to work with her team, nathan wade. these allegations spiked jaw- dropping testimony this week from phil willis herself. >> you've been in -- you confused. you think i'm on trial. these people are on trial for trying to steal an election in 2020. not on trial no matter how hard you try to put me on trial. >> that kind of sums up -- former trump white house aide michael roman. he's trying to paint her relationship with wade as a conflict of interest to eventually force willis off the case.

will that happen? we don't know. is all of this a huge distraction? of course it is. but it's important to remember that none of what happened in part five changes anything about parts one through four. joining me now is investigative journalist michael -- he's the coauthor of a new book about the georgia case which is called -- rogue president, and the plot to steal an american election. it somehow became a focal point of this week's hearing, which is -- so let me just start there. because it was used in the hearing repeatedly. some of, i've heard you say, is a bit out of context. so give us the context of actually how you talk about her in the book. >> share. surreal moment. i mean, the lawyers for michael roman and the other trump defendants are trying to prove that there was some sort of corrupt bargain between fani willis and nathan wade to give him the job so nathan wade can take care on lavish vacations. and to sort of promote that

case, or to make that case, they pointed to a passage in her book where we talk about the financial troubles that fani willis was having after she ran for -- 2018. they said what this showed was that she was financially destitute when she became the a, and therefore, their theory somehow makes sense. she's impoverished, she needs a source of somebody to take care around the world. in fact, if they read the passage a little more closely, we're talking about her financial straits in 2018. after that, she's got a judgeship that paid her three figure salary -- at the time, he ran for dea, she was actually fairly okay, but they didn't read the next few paragraphs of the book. they totally undercut the point they were trying to make. >> context is so important. they interviewed her number of times.

you and your coauthor -- it's hard to predict all sides, but she sort of became the target of this. she's a well-known, tough prosecutor. she's also a black woman. >> yeah. look. i mean, i think we can say it was stupid of hard to get into this relationship with nathan wade, if for no other reason it gave ammunition to critics and the defendants to make hay of that. but, you know, when you cut through it, i mean, the whole argument is so strained. the premise is there was a corrupt bargain between fani willis and nathan wade, to hire him, so he could take around vacations, and therefore, she had a vested interest in keeping the case going. now there's absolutely no evidence of that. there's no evidence that the relationship between wade and willis and anyway prejudiced michael roman, or the rights of

the other defendants. absolutely none. >> needless to say -- and complete distraction from the rather serious charges here. we make the argument in the book that the georgia case is in some ways the most significant case. trump did -- didn't do what he did on his own. he had an army of confederates, coconspirators. from rudy giuliani to mark meadows, to john eastman. all of them are indicted as part of a conspiracy case. this is the only conspiracy case that touches on all the people who were involved in trump's efforts to overturn the election. >> you chose to write about georgia because it sounds like it was such a -- there are so many details in this book, which is why it's important to talk about them and not the side by. you have quite a story about jordan fuchs and a. tell me a bit about that. >> that's one of the most incredible stories of the whole 2020 election battle.

he was this non political aide -- political consultant, 30 years old, you are a young political aide at one time, who on her own makes this unilateral, spare of the moment decision to tape the phone call that trump is having with raffensperger. why? because raffensperger's her boss. she knows the dangers of getting into a conversation with donald trump -- who is suing raffensperger at the time. -- you never know if she's on the phone call. she was on the phone call the whole time. she puts herself unmute. but she tapes the call. as a result -- we have the most compelling evidence of trump's pressure on raffensperger, on state officials, to alter the election results. we call it, arguably, the gutsiest and most consequential

act of the entire postelection battle. and nobody knew it. this young woman who did it on her own. coming up alexei navalny's -- death in a week in which republican appeasement of vladimir putin reached a whole new level we've got a few thoughts to leshare about. that plus, former national security adviser john bolton has spent a fair amount of time with putin and with donald trump. so it's a good thing he is standing by here in washington. stay with us, we'll be right back. washington. stay with us, we'll be right back.

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this election is about who shares your values. if you're 50 years or older, let me share mine. i'm the only candidate with a record of taking on maga republicans, and winning. when they overturned roe, i secured abortion rights in our state constitution. when trump attacked our lgbtq and asian neighbors, i strengthened our hate crime laws. i fought for all of us struggling to keep up with the rising cost of living. i'm evan low, and i approve this message for all of our shared values.

donald trump and the maga wing of the republican party just cannot seem to quit russian dictator vladimir putin. remember it was this time just last week when we were all talking about trump encouraging russia to attack our nato

allies. >> no i would not protect you. in fact, i would encourage them to do whatever the hell they want >> i would encourage them to do whatever the hell they want. i want you to keep that sentence in mind, as you follow me here and after trump said that lots of republicans rushed to his defense. some even tried to rationalize putin's aggression >> we forced this issue, we kept forcing nato all the way to eastern europe, and putin has got tired of it. you can tell putin is on top of his game. he can't win it's not going to happen. something needs to negotiate, donald trump will have it over within a matter of weeks. >> ukraine can't win, putin is on top of his game, sends football coach turns united states senator, and apparent putin fanboy tommy tuberville this week, house republicans also officially spiked a bill that would have provided billions of dollars in funding for ukraine, at a time when russia is gaining ground so just to recap, you've got

donald trump encouraging russia to do whatever the hell they want. you've got a united states senator praising putin for being on top of his game. and we've got house republicans choking off crucial aid to the country russia invaded. oh, and i almost forgot. we've also got one of the most popular right-wing media personalities in the country, parading around like moscow like some sort of deranged brand ambassador. >> how does russia, a country we are told is a gas station with nuclear weapons, have a subway station that norman people used to get to work and home every single day, that's nicer than anything in our country? >> all right here we go. so i guess you put in ten noodles here, and you get it back to, when you put the cart back. >> so it's free, but there's an incentive to return it, and not just bring it to your homeless encampment. >> -- has not swept russia. thank heaven because look at that. >> and this is russian wine

it's from crimea, which not only has the -- naval base but also is the source of most of the grapes, in this part of russia for wine. >> yes, that crimea, which russia illegally annexed from ukraine. apparently tucker likes their. line here is the thing, everything i just mentioned happened before friday, when the world learned that vladimir putin's main rival, alexei navalny, had been found dead in a russian penal colony. anyone who knows anything about russia knows that of course vladimir putin is most likely responsible. of course donald trump has said absolutely nothing, nothing to, say about navalny's death. he gave a two-hour speech last night, talk to all sorts of stuff, didn't say a single word about it. after all, he thinks putin should do whatever the hell he wants, his words, not mine. but trump has given us a clue about what he thinks he should be able to do to his political rivals in this country. much like his pal, vladimir putin. >> do you agree with your lawyers when they said on

tuesday that you should not be prosecuted, or could not be prosecuted if you were trying to kill a political opponent. >> if a president of the united states does not have immunity, he will be totally ineffective. >> see, donald trump doesn't just like putin, he clearly does, he wants to be like putin. his defenders in the republican party are all for it, too many of them are. and you better believe russia is watching all of this. donald trump's former national security adviser, john bolton is standing by here in washington, and he joins me next. here in washington, and he joins me next. good to go binge-watch. good to go out even later. with cabenuva, there's no pausing for daily hiv pills. for adults who are undetectable, cabenuva is the only complete, long-acting hiv treatment you can get every other month. it's two injections from a healthcare provider, just 6 times a year. don't receive cabenuva if you're allergic to its ingredients, or if you're taking certain medicines, which may interact with cabenuva.

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imitate vladimir putin, or looking the other way, his top political rival has just turned up dead. can't think of anyone better to talk to than someone who sat face to face with vladimir putin himself, on behalf of trump himself. joining me now is donald trump's former national security advisor ambassador john bolton. so, we were just talking about this during the break. i mean, this is been quite a week. you start with trump saying that russia can do whatever they want, as it relates to nato countries. continue with a complete standstill on aid to ukraine, something they desperately need, given the progress russia has made even over the weekend. it ended of course with the death of alexei navalny. and you've sat in a lot of these rooms, many of them. i just wanted to ask you, how does putin, how does he consume what's happening here in the united states? trump's words, or lack of words i should say, in some cases. >> well, i think he sees things moving in his direction. and, he really outdid himself in terms of disinformation a couple of days ago, when a reporter asked what do you think of biden versus trump. and he said, well biden is

predictable and so on, implying he was endorsing. >> what did you think of that when you heard that? >> it's a clear disinformation effort. so >> to confuse. people >> to give trump the opportunity, which he is foolish enough to take to say, i thought that was actually a compliment to me. i mean, if trump is elected, there will be celebrations in the kremlin, there is no doubt about it. because putin thinks that he is an easy mark. >> easy, easy to manipulate. >> i mean this week, there was also some pretty big news about trump having to pay now. i mean, it is $450 million from just this week, with interest. you are familiar with how foreign capitalists think about these things, are you worried about trump having all of this money he owes, and being a target in that way, of people like putin and other foreign authoritarian, autocrats? >> well, i think it is going to result in him having to liquidate some of his properties. i don't see where he is going to get the cash. although, it is not really a near term problem. he will appeal, he will have to post a bond, a course. but i think these are the things that really affect him,

most immediately. because this is his money. and let's face it, what donald trump cares about most of all is donald trump, and particularly donald trump's money. >> but could foreign autocrats, they look, and they target. you said he is a good target. could they look at him and think a, he is a good target, he owns -- tons of money, he may not even have it? >> i mean, i think this is one of the demonstrations of why trump really is not fit for office. he is consumed by these troubles, his family is consumed by them. and i think foreigners will try to take advantage of it, one way or another. they may be doing it already. >> let me ask you, just about navalny. because alexei navalny is of course a very prominent opposition leader he has bravely been in jail, he spent 300 plus days in sort of an isolated, freezing cold cell. democrats and republicans, not enough republicans, i will say, have spoken out. nikki haley has. trump has been completely silent. he had a two-hour speech yesterday, he said nothing. what do you make of that? >> well heaven forbid he say

anything critical of vladimir putin. look accidents don't happen in those kinds of russian prison camps. when navalny's mother asked him to take care of the body, they refused to give it to her, and they told. her >> because they wanted to have an autopsy. >> they told her the cause of death was sudden death syndrome. well, i would sure like to know what that is, maybe it means you are alive one minute or dead the next. i don't know what else it can be. but four years ago when navalny was the victim of an attempted assassination by poisoning, other people immediately condemned what was obviously the kremlin's weapon of choice against its opponents, poisoning. trump didn't comment on it, said he didn't have information to judge. i mean, he is only the president of the united states at that point. so, it is obviously part of a pattern, he simply doesn't want to criticize his friend putin. because in trump's mind, if he has a good relationship with putin, the u.s. has a good relationship with russia. this is the kind of thing that

tells putin that trump simply doesn't know what he is doing. >> there has also been alarming news this week about putin's reported efforts to put a nuclear weapon in space, to target american satellites. there is not a tongue we know about it exactly. but it did make some news this week. the ban on nuclear weapons and space was among the topics that putin said was on his agenda to discuss with trump back in helsinki. now that was in 2016, you are the national security adviser. trump did a lot of that one-on- one. but was it a topic that came up? or was discussed in anyway? >> no i don't believe. so you know, they say it is one on one, but there are always two interpreters, one for each side. and i will say that my staff immediately after the one on one end, it went to the u.s. interpreter and said what did they talk about? most of it was about syria, and putin did most of the talking. so i consider that a victory, the last time trump is actually saying anything to vladimir putin, that is a good thing. nothing came out, we had a lunch right after it, and i am confident nothing sensitive was

discussed. >> there is no question, and you have talked about this a fair amount, and i am even familiar with this from my time the national security world. every country is watching what's happening globally. and i want to ask you about president xi, how he is watching say, the events of the past couple of weeks. where the dysfunction in washington has meant that there is no funding currently moving forward, and no clear path to support ukraine. so putin has kind of a fair, free game there. and they have of course aggression that they are considering, as it relates to taiwan and other territories in the region. how do they watch? this do they think oh, we are safe from the u.s., there is nothing that's going to happen here? >> no, they are exuberant in beijing. remember, this aid package should include aid to taiwan, which can use it immediately if they could get their hands on it. this is the sort of navel gazing that america sometimes gets into. which its foreign adversaries take advantage of. and in beijing right now, they are looking at the war in ukraine, they are looking at

the war in the middle east, and they are saying to themselves, the biden's attention is diverted by two wars, and a difficult presidential campaign. what should we be doing to take advantage of the united states? so i am surprised actually we haven't seen more trouble along china's indo-pacific periphery. it may come, but looking at donald trump, the only question in my mind if trump is reelected, is whether the bigger celebration will be in the kremlin, or in beijing. because they to see donald trump as an easy mark. >> as an easy mark. some of the biggest authoritarian dictators in the world see trump as an easy mark. i think that is quite a point for people to fit -- ambassador john bolton, thank you so much for joining me this afternoon. >> coming up, -- has not done a major sit-down interview since she got to the senate, until our conversation this week. i can't tell you how excited i am about this one, we talk about a lot of issues and just listen to what my friend rachel maddow said, when she found out about this. we are back after. this found out about this. we are back after. this

i am not going to inquire live on television, how you got that interview. but i am going to -- the next time we are both in the same place. >> i look forward to it. >> because i am very jealous. . >> because i am very jealous. (christina) with verizon business unlimited, i get 5g, truly unlimited data, and unlimited hotspot data. so, no matter what, i'm running this kitchen. (vo) make the switch. it's your business. it's your verizon. my life is full of questions... how do i clean an aioli stain? use tide. do i need to pretreat guacamole? not with tide. why do we even buy napkins? thankfully, tide's the answer to almost all of them. do crabs have eyebrows? except that one. for all of life's laundry questions, it's got to be tide. a lot of new dry eye patients in my office tell me about their frequent dry eyes, which may point to dry eye disease. millions of americans were estimated to have it. they've tried artificial tears again and again, but the relief is temporary.

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california's constituents, she quoted muhammad ali, of course, saying don't count the days, make the days count. and she is certainly doing just that. i sat down with senator butler earlier this week at howard university, to talk about her journey before, during, and after congress. >> february is of course black history month. there's only been three black women who have been in the senate in. our country has been around a long time, so this is kind of, it's a startling, small number. what are the biggest barriers, do you think? >> when you look at an incredible public servant, like stacey abrams or val demings in florida, or chief justice shared -- in north carolina. three incredibly -- public servants, who are willing to put their selves out there, to be evaluated and judged and interrogated, all of them fell short of becoming governor, or even achieving the level of

united states senate. and so, they are remains barriers around i think the perception of black women, in their leadership. there remains barriers in terms of the stereotypes, that are applied to black women. even in a u.s. senate today, i feel like some colleagues apply those stereotypes to me. >> how have you experienced that? >> you know, you have such a great temperament. >> as if they expect what, that you are angry? >> what >> is the expectation? >> i add that is an interesting question isn't it. you have, you just have the right approach to being in the u.s. senate. again, i think it is potentially well intended. if i start with a -- motivation or ill intent, i think there is just a blindness, to the stereotypes that are applied. sometimes it's willful, it's a

willful dismissal of what black women bring to the table, and the voices that we bring to every room. we make sure that we are not just in the room representing ourselves. we bring our children, our communities, our pta, our church, to every table. and sometimes, those voices show up with the demand of the communities that we represent. but there remains real barriers, and i experienced them today. >> what did you say to your daughter, when the governor called you and asked you to serve in the senate? >> she said well, would it mean that you are going to be gone more? because, yeah. she says, does it mean that you are going to always come back. i said, of course. and, she says will you always work to keep me safe? absolutely. and this role is a way for me to do that, at an even bigger scale, and not just you, but

your classmates. she says that you should do it. >> what a wise nine-year-old. >> let's talk about congress, because you are an insider now, but you are also an outsider. you have such an interesting perspective. consider a pretty horrible episode of dysfunction of the past couple of weeks, we have republicans in congress took a bipartisan agreement, on the border, and they thanked it for what we're clearly political reasons. talk to me a little bit about how you viewed what has happened over the past couple of weeks. >> the activist in me, that advocate in me, the person who took long bus trips with community activists in the immigration spaces in los angeles. that part of me was very disappointed in the agreement that was reached, and the senator in me was, i sort of felt bad for senator lankford. i have spent a little bit of time with him, particularly on

the plane, to go to senator feinstein's funeral. >> oh wow, interesting. did you know him before? that i >> did not know him before that, but to see how he embraced across party lines, on that plane. going to that funeral service, it made me more curious about him. and i have had exchanges with him, and i understand him to be conservative, for sure. but, willing to engage, meaningfully, and on the substance. and i think that is how he approached his, these negotiations. i have been there for now a little bit over four months, and i have seen a lot of how the inside works, in a way that surprises me, disappoints me, frustrates me, angers me. but most importantly, i think if you will see me to really

understand what my presence means in this moment. and, how government truly can be a difference maker, when we choose to work on behalf of the american people. >> i want to talk about the presidential race, of course. i think it is on everybody's minds. when you hear people like governor nikki haley say a vote for joe biden is a vote for kamala harris. i mean, i know what i hear. but what's most important is what you hear, when you hear her say that. >> i think that ambassador haley is unfortunately perpetuating the dog whistles of divisive politics. and, frankly, should be called on it. and, my response to her is yes it is. and, america has demonstrated that they are ready, willing, and able to support candidates who are experienced, who are qualified, and who have the

interests of the american people at heart. and that has been vice president harris, and every term >> you are not running in 2024, you are also making clear you are not endorsing anyone in the senate race. so, what can we expect from you next? >> i feel like my life has been one of service. -- who really inspires me, and convince me to serve on the board of the children's defense fund, once said to me that the services the rent you pay for living. and, the life i have lived, as a poor kid from one stoplight town, it's a life that i know that i owe so much. and so service will always be a part of what i want to do, and what exactly that looks like, i am open to >> it sounds like you could run for office in the future. and >> that's -- i literally saved my daughter, never say never honey, never say never. >> al never say never, it is not a door that i have closed. it was never one that i thought

would be open for me. and so now that it is open, i think i have a responsibility to leave it open, for how it is that i can best continue to serve, and to pay rent, for the life that i've lived. >> my thanks to senator butler for spending some time with me at howard university. and we are going to post our full conversation on the msnbc youtube channel. i've got one more thing to tell you about before we go today, that's coming up after a quick break. that's coming up after a quick break. know your glucose and where it's headed. no fingersticks needed. now the world's smallest and thinnest sensor... sends your glucose levels directly to your smartphone. manage your diabetes with more confidence, and lower your a1c. the number one cgm prescribed in the us. try it for free at freestylelibre.us. ♪♪

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we are already working on a big show for tomorrow night at eight pm eastern. how speaker emerita nancy pelosi will be here. i have so many things to ask her about as she returned from the munich security conference, including her special moment with navalny a, following her husband's death and her shout out from ukrainian president volodymyr zelenskyy. after trump once again referenced e. jean carroll in a speech last night, her attorney sean crowley will weigh in how far the former president could go before they bring him back to court again. for now, stay right where you are because there's much more news coming up on msnbc. up on . on this hour even we take you inside the efforts to safeguard democracy from donald trump as he promises a radical second term if voters give him one. also