ago now, blaming republican losses in the midterms on the position on abortion, you know, which for a lot of them was ban abortion, period. no exemptions, in cases of rape, incest, or life of the mother. he's basically said that is a bad position for republicans. he's trying to find a middle ground that helps him at least blunt that issue heading into the election. >> yeah. i'm old enough to remember when he put all the justices on the supreme court that eventually put dobbs into play and overturned roe. john allen, thanks so much for waking up with us. senior nbc news national politics reporter. i'll see you on the campaign trail. thanks for getting up "way too early." we have "morning joe" coming up right now. today, justice has been served. we proved no one is above the law. no matter how rich, powerful, or politically connected you are, everyone must play by the same rules. this decision is a massive

victory for every american who believes in that simple but fundamental pillar of our democracy. the rule of law applies to all of us equally, fairly, and justly. >> that was new york attorney general letitia james speaking friday after the financially devastating civil fraud ruling against donald trump. we'll explain that judgment and what it means for trump's finances. also ahead, we'll bring you the latest fallout following the death of alexei navalny, as russia cracks down on any show of support for the now deceased opposition leader. plus, the israeli government is rejecting any recognition of the potential palestinian state while its forces move forward with an offensive near the city of rafah, the last refuge for palestinians in gaza. we'll go through all of those major developments out of the middle east. good morning. welcome to "morning joe."

it is monday, february 19th. presidents' day. i'm jonathan lemire along with u.s. special correspondent for bbc news katty kay. we're in for joe, mika, and willie on this holiday. with us here in washington, we have former u.s. attorney and msnbc contributor chuck rosenberg, as well as columnist and associate editor for "the washington post," david ignatius. chuck, we'll come to you in a moment about all of these legal developments, but, david, let's begin here. you were on air, speaking with us on friday when word broke that alexei navalny had died in the siberian prison, the long-time opposition leader to vladimir putin and his reregime. you were in munich at this security conference, a conference rocked by this news. give us your impressions. you were there a few days. coming back to join us in washington. what is the reaction on the world stage as to what we've seen? >> jonathan, i think the death of navalny and also the defeat of ukrainian troops in avdiivka

shook the conference. i thought it'd be about european angst, about the possible election of donald trump, trump's threats to pull back from nato, that whole chorus of european concerns. in the even, it wasn't. it was ability the very vivid, new demonstration of the threat that vladimir putin poses to ukraine but also to europe. over and over, people talked about standing firm against putin. putin just hung over the stage there in munich as a figure of menace for everybody who was there. there was talk in a much more serious way about how to fight back. zelenskyy came to the conference, volodymyr zelenskyy, the president of ukraine, came to the conference saturday and gave a powerful speech. i was struck by how much he'd

aged in the two years since this war began. i remember him on the eve of war, the sort of fresh-faced young comedian taking control. you know, he looked just pounded by his experience as a wartime leader. he was very frank, "unless you give us what we need, we're in terrible trouble now." russia has broken through in the city of avdiivka, and the threat is moving faster. two conclusions from all of this. first, i think there is an understanding that ukraine desperately needs new weapons. they're running out of ammunition. that's one reason they lost this battle. they need the ammunition next week, right now, and they need long-range missiles. there's a lot of talk about giving them things that nato has held back, the united states in particular has held back, the

atacms that can strike deeper. there was a bipartisan group of senators and congressmen in munich, and i heard over and over again to my surprise, from republicans as well as democrats, we are going to find a way to do this. i don't mean to make a legislative prediction because i don't know enough. all i can say is i heard over and over again americans tell zelenskyy, europeans, "this is going to happen. we're going to find a way." they've got some new legislative strategies to get it through. that was the sum of it. it was a much more fight back conversation rather than, oh, my gosh, here comes trump. >> it was a selected group. they're the ones that want national security and want america to lead the security. they want -- it's speaker johnson who doesn't want this on the floor. you have a trifecta of things. you have trump saying that, to

nato, you have to pay. are we seriously looking at a shift where we have to step up for our own security now without the prospect of american leadership? what would that mean? what does that mean for the world? my sense is we may be at a turning point. yes, europeans are stepping up with their own defense spending, and we're seeing the czechs and the danes say, "ukraine, you can have whatever we have. we're handing over the stocks as much as we can." what would it mean? if american leadership goes from europe now, while putin seems to be in this moment of ascendency to some extent, certainly at home, we're looking at a shift in the world order, aren't we, david, at the moment, potentially? >> so america stepping back from ukraine would be an abdication of our responsibility. shocking for me to think about it. but what i heard from europeans is, whatever america does, we're

threatened by a putin who is a menace to his own country and to us, greater than we imagined. we have no choice. this was stated by germans, by norwegians, by people across europe. this really is europe's fight. america has been our crucial leader. america was trying to reassure, we're going to find a way to do this. but even if that package fails, europeans were talking about ways to augment their weapons production, shipments. ukrainians are creating a company to build their own drones, do their own electronic warfare. people were not in a mood to give into a putin whose menace was so obvious. that's the takeaway. >> there's still doubts as to whether votes exist among republicans to pass the package. even as russia is at the forefront of the conversation, including the threat from space that was discussed, which sent

washington into a frenzy last week. we heard president biden declare putin is responsible, one way or another, for navalny's death. we'll certainly have much more on this story as the show goes on. >> happy presidents' day, everybody. what a great way to start the show, changing the world order. on friday, we also got the judge's ruling, as john was saying, in the civil fraud trial against donald trump, ruling the former president must pay a $355 million penalty and be barred from serving in executive roles at any new york company for three years. in his decision, judge engoron also ordered the continued appointment of an independent monitor for the company. writing in part, quote, "their complete lack of contrition and remorse borders on pathological." letitia james called the ruling a tremendous victory. >> for years, donald trump engaged in deceptive business practices and tremendous fraud.

donald trump falsely, knowingly, inflated his net worth by billions of dollars to unjustly enrich himself, his family, and to cheat the system. donald trump may have authored the art of the deal, but he perfected the art of the steal. because the scale and the scope of donald trump's fraud is staggering, and so, too, is his ego and his belief that the rules do not apply to him. today, we are holding donald trump accountable. we are holding him accountable for lying, cheating, and a lack of contrition, and for flouting the rules that all of us must play by. because there cannot be different rules for different people in this country, and former presidents are no exception. >> attorney general james says

the judgment against trump totals over $450 million once you've included interest, an amount, she says, will continue to increase every single day until it is paid. trump made several false claims about the ruling friday night outside of mar-a-lago. he also said he would be appealing the judgment. chuck rosenberg, what happens now with this case? is that done and dusted? he ends up paying, and then we move on to the other cases, or do we still have news from this one to get through if he's going to appeal? >> if he is going to appeal, katty, he has to either put up the money that would cover the judgment against him -- it's a lot of money -- or find someone to help him post bond. one way or the other, the law is written such that he can't just dissipate his assets, right? he can't try to hide stuff. if he wants to -- >> can't put them in a sneaker somewhere in philadelphia, for example. >> for example, can't put them in a sneaker. if he wants to appeal, and i'm sure he does, he'll have to put up the money backing the

judgment. that's a lot, right? remember, $355 million in new york state, plus another, perhaps, $100 million in interest there. then two federal judgments against him totaling about $90 million. add that up, and i wasn't a math major, but it is over half a billion dollars that he could be on the hook for. >> of course, he also owes e. jean carroll another $83 million odd, as well. he has to come up with cash. donald trump is coming up with creative ways of doing so. after finding out he was on the hook for more than $350 million, the former president unveiled a trump-themed product to a less than receptive crowd. >> that's the real deal. that's the real deal. >> i just want to thank you very much for being here. it is an honor. it's an honor. you're all sneaker heads. you're speaker heads, right? wow. a lot of emotion.

there's a lot of emotion in this room. thank you. thank you. >> first of all, let's note, that's the first time trump has faced a hostile audience in a long time. it was clear, he didn't know what to do. >> i'm disappointed you're not wearing them, john. >> there is a reason why the camera is only from the waist up here, no footwear reveals this morning. that was trump at sneaker con, for some reason, held in philadelphia over the weekend. he did roll out a new line of shoes, selling for a cool $399 a pair. trump also announced a new fragrance line priced at $99 a bottle, each scent symbolizes, quote, victory and strength. we'll leave you to figure out what that actually smells like. we'll bring in legal correspondent lisa rubin. you've been following this trial in new york that concluded friday with this judgment of the payment he will -- that donald trump will have to provide in

some way. partially funded by sneaker sales. give us your overall takeaways as to what you saw on friday. any surprises to you? and as chuck suggested, i mean, trump, even if appealing, he's got to come up with that cash and soon. is there any suggestion that he can? >> well, let's start, first, john, with what i thought about the ruling, because i was really blown away by the size of the discouragement, which is what judge engoron decided the trump parties had to give back from their fraudulent scheme. the attorney general asked for around $370 million, broken up into four components. she basically said, these are four different ways in which they have profited from their fraud. as you know from the ruling, they got almost everything that they wanted in that respect. what they didn't get, on the other hand, was a lifetime ban on trump's participation in the new york commercial real estate

industry or a lifetime ban on him serving as an officer or director of a new york company. i think that's because judge engoron determined the real way to hurt donald trump here was by making him pay and then by imposing supervision on him. he's now going to have not only a continuation of this monitorship that's been in place since 2022, run by retired federal judge barbara jones, but now they're going to have to appoint an internal, independent compliance monitor, as well. so i think that the babysitting component of this, plus the gargantuon financial penalties, is what puts on the bite here. as far as the appeal, in new york state, it's not just the judgment. you have to put up 120% in the ordinary course to appeal. you usually have to do that within 30 days. whether trump has that cash is

really a question mark over my head and many others. in part, because the last time that trump himself spoke about his net worth under oath, he said he roughly had $400 million in cash. as you well know, the judgment in the e. jean carroll case, plus the judgment in this case, exceeds the $400 million number. whether he has it remains to be seen. >> whether he'd have to sell his prized assets to cover up the rest also an open question. chuck, let's quickly touch on another legal matter. we saw it play out in fulton county last week. the district attorney fani willis giving an impassioned defense, and then she didn't appear on the stand again on friday. what's your read as to how that went at the end of friday and where things could go next in that case? >> through a couple different prisms, jonathan. legally, the defendants have to show that there was some

improper financial arrangement that makes that a conflict of interest. if the defendants can show a conflict of interest, a financial one by ms. willis hiring mr. wade, when they had a romantic relationship, and that she somehow benefitted from the money that was being paid to him, that could be a conflict. they could be disqualified from the case. that's the legal part. i don't think the defendants have succeeded yet. i mean, it's messy. it's ugly if you've watched any of it. you probably have that icky feeling when you see it, but i don't know that they've made out the disqualification grounds yet. politically, it's a mess. there's a bunch of things that happened at the hearing that shows her -- it's gotten into personal relationships between ms. willis and mr. wade. there was some contention about when that relationship started. there was a witness who might have been very important on that

fact, but he didn't testify fully because mr. wade was invoking a privileged to preclude him from doing that. >> briefly, does any of that rail really matter for the substance of the georgia case, though? >> maybe. if the romantic relationship between ms. willis and mr. wade happened before he was hired by her in fulton county, the affidavit he submitted might be false. not only would that affidavit will false, katty, ms. willis propounded that affidavit, provided that affidavit to the court in support of her contention that the relationship started subsequently. by the way, at any point, and i was a prosecutor for a long time, if a supervisor is having a relationship with a subordinate, regardless of when it starts, that's reason for the subordinate or the supervisor to step away from the case. so, in some ways, to me, it doesn't really matter when it

started, but if it started before she hired him, you might have false affidavits in this case. if i may, katty, that raises a separate point. even if the defendants fail to show an actual conflict of interest, and they may very well fail, an appearance of a conflict of an interest is also a problem. as prosecutors, you have to be sensitive to the appearance. even if the legal motion fails and the judge doesn't disqualify his willis or mr. wade from the case, you still have an appearance. that's messy. >> we're talking about this rather than the substance of the georgia case, as well, at the moment. lisa, we've had the financial ruling in the fraud case. we talked about the georgia case this morning. let's talk about the jack smith case. what are you looking at over the next week or two that might give us an indication of when the january 6th case could possibly come to trial? and are you still thinking -- i

think we spoke a couple months ago, and you thought it could come to trial before this summer. do you still think this sum ser a reasonable timeframe, depending on the supreme court? >> i think this summer is the earliest that we'll see this trial begin, katty, depending on what the supreme court does. the supreme court had a conference on friday. that's essentially when the justices sit around and decide not only which cases to take, but they often will discuss pending applications that are short of asking for full supreme court review, such as donald trump's motion to stay all lower court proceedings while he appeals the d.c. circuit opinion on immunity. i think it is really possible that we'll see some determination on that motion tomorrow when the court is back in session. we know the court is going to release an orders list at 9:30 tomorrow. we also know that there might be some opinions tomorrow or later in the week.

i think it could be a big week in terms of that case. how that cuts, i'm not really sure. i do think, and i know that other people share this view, that the fact that we didn't hear from the court before -- and could mean a dissent. it could be granted to others on the other side of the prevailing vote. that cuts. the other thing i'm looking for this week, all of his pretrial motions are due.

constitutionally, i'm not sure how that shores up, even on donald trump's best legal day. i'll be interested to see how his folks explain that on thursday. >> he's certainly had a enough of bad legal days of late and just a tidal wave of news. we're so grateful that former litigator and legal correspondent lisa rubin, as well as u.s. attorney chuck rosenberg, were here to provide their expert analysis. thanks to you both. still ahead here in just one minute, there's been an outpouring of grief following the death of alexei navalny, even in russia. we'll take a look at how moscow is cracking down on any show of support for the late opposition leader. plus, we've got new reporting on donald trump privately expressing support for a 16 week abortion ban. how democrats and the white house are looking to seize that moment. also ahead, there's yet

another government shutdown looming. house lawmakers are out of office all week. what that means for the fight to keep the federal government running. you're watching "morning joe." we're back in just 60 seconds. rsv is out there. for those 60 years and older protect against rsv with arexvy. arexvy is a vaccine used to prevent lower respiratory disease from rsv in people 60 years and older. arexvy does not protect everyone and is not for those with severe allergic reactions to its ingredients. those with weakened immune systems may have a lower response to the vaccine. the most common side effects are injection site pain, fatigue, muscle pain, headache, and joint pain. i chose arexvy. rsv? make it arexvy.

donald trump, as you pointed out, said a few days ago that he had told the nato allies he would encourage putin to do whatever he needed to do, whatever he wanted to do. he's basically made clear that under a trump administration, the united states is unlikely to keep its nato commitments. i think that republicans who understand the importance of the national security situation, who continue to support him, are similarly going to be held to account. you know, when you think about donald trump, for example, pledging retribution, what put

putin did to navalny is what retribution looks like in a country where the leader is not subject to the rule of law. i think that we have to take donald trump very seriously. we have to take seriously the extent to which, you know, you've now got a putin wing of the republican party. i believe the issue this election cycle is making sure that the putin wing of the republican party does not take over the west wing of the white house. >> donald trump is siding with a thug who kills his political opponents. he is siding with someone who has made no bones about wanting to destroy america. he's siding with someone who arrests american journalists and holds them hostage. he's siding with a dictator instead of siding with our allies who stood with us at 9/11. >> republican presidential candidate nikki haley. before that, former republican congresswoman liz cheney. those comments come as former president donald trump has remained noticeably silent on

the death of aleei navalny. it is notable considering his comments from more than a week ago when he said he'd encourage russia to invade nato countries if they didn't pay enough. when asked for comment over the weekend on navalny's death, a trump campaign spokesperson deflected and referred nbc news to a social media post by the former president attacking president biden while claiming trump himself is the only person who can, quote, bring peace, prosperity, and stability to the world. trump's last public comment about navalny appears to have been back in september of 2020 when he was asked about navalny being poisoned and nearly losing his life. at the time, trump responded back then saying, quote, we'll talk about that at another time, and now, even when he's been killed. join us is ali vitali. ali, a lack of information still coming out. >> yeah. >> the family hasn't seen the

body. they went up to the morgue where they were told it was. it wasn't there. there was reporting over the weekend that navalny had been pushed while he was in prison. have you heard anything more on how he actually died? >> i have not heard anything more, but if i look at the way that, on a domestic political front, this is being received, you have the white house clear in their statements about the way this looks on the world stage. of course, condemning russia and putin. you have nikki haley, a former u.n. ambassador, on the campaign trail doing the same thing. i think it is striking, and i think we can't underscore enough, the fact that trump is silent yet again. i'm so glad we included the fact that when this happened, when navalny was initially poisoned during trump's administration, he said nothing. we'll talk about that at another time. you and i know, this is a man who weighs in on everything liberally. the fact he's not talking about this is notable. it comes back to what congresswoman liz cheney is saying about the pro-putin wing of the republican party. the one thing i question is, she says that they will be held to account. who and when? i mean, this is a part of the party that is on the rise.

you don't just have donald trump on the campaign trail not condemning putin for what happened to navalny, you have on the hill a large contingent of people who don't want to continue sending aid to ukraine. all of this is connected. you have donald trump as the continued frontrunner and the standard bearer of the party who could be back in power in the white house. i mean, this is all critically important together. >> trump's silence, david, notable but not at all surprising. we know that donald trump does not stand up to vladimir putin. he does not say anything that could be remotely critical of putin. he didn't while he was in office. he didn't while in helsinki. he didn't since leaving office, trying to get back into power. talk to us about how that, the idea of trump's return potentially, how that loomed over the gathering in munich, how the world leaders, reeling from this news of navalny's death, putin on the rise as you mentioned earlier in the show, and the idea that someone who is cozying up to putin every chance he gets might soon be back in the west wing. >> it sends a chill down the

spines of many european leaders, obviously. they feel as never before the threat from putin, and the idea that america's next president might be somebody who will seek to do a deal with putin that's advantageous to putin at europe's expense, i think, is just, you know -- they dread that. so they kind of push back. they're trying to rally their own spirits. you know, ali, i wonder if republicans really can carry putin on their backs, in effect. i noted in comments on shows over the weekend, the republican line seemed to be, implausibly, it is trump who can be tough on this issue. >> right. >> you know, biden has been weak. biden hasn't stood up to putin in ukraine. that seemed to be tim scott's

line. just curious, i come from munich, where the republicans who were most enthusiastic about working with democrats to provide aid for ukraine were gathered. what's your sense of republican sentiment overall? i came away from munich thinking, maybe, maybe a version of this supplemental aid package will pass. what do you think? >> i mean, a version of it may still pass. i do think the senate has always been the place, and this has always been true, but the last few years, it's always the place where there is the possibility of bipartisan action. it's the house and the house republicans. the way we're watching these hard liners, and it's not always the same people. it's not like we're looking to the same lineup of house republicans every single twist of this policy conversation, who are saying, we need border security. well, we need more cuts on domestic funding. i do think that the folks you were with in munich are probably the ones that we would look to for bipartisan action, and that pressure will be there. i thought it was striking, though, and maybe this is nothing and maybe i'm looking too much into it, but the fact

that lindsey graham chose to go to the border instead of going to munich, someone who had for many years prided himself on being such a pro-small d democracy hawk on the world stage, being so vehemently anti-russia, anti-putin, towing that line for so long, and saying, no, i'll go to the border and play domestic politics opposed to going to munich and standing in a somewhat bipartisan action, that was somewhat striking. i don't know what it says about the supplemental, but i think the fact that donald trump is putting people like tim scott, who wants to be vp, in the position of having to defend this murky position on russia, that is really going to be problematic for the republican party post trump, which i don't know we'll ever get there. i mean, eventually. >> president biden on friday, katty, was forceful in denouncing navalny's death and used the moment in the public remarks from the white house to call on republicans, get this passed. ukraine needs our aid. this is how we can stand up to putin so he can't keep doing things like this. i spoke to white house aides over the weekend, though, they're not sure any, not one, a

single vote, would change. the process will play out, maybe momentum will build from munich or elsewhere, but there is pessimist to get this done. >> turner sounded confident on "meet the press" something would happen. on the point about trump, was saying, well, what trump says at rallies isn't necessarily how trump governs. that's what i hear from the europeans, too, maybe what he says on the campaign trail is not what he is actually going to do. if we have him, we'll have to deal with him in some way. we have to find a way. still ahead, a new poll of historians rank joe biden as one of the best president in american history. we'll tell you what they say is biden's biggest accomplishment, and where his predecessor donald trump lands on that list. "morning joe" is coming right back.

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>> oh! >> multiple flat tires. that was the motor speedway flat tire. oh, my goodness. >> y'all see this? >> damian lillard. >> the nba's mid season showcase did not feature any defense. the eastern conference set the all-time scoring record in last night's all-star game, becoming the first team to surpass, wait for it, 200 points on the way to a 211-186 win over the western conference. you see the effort level there. guys jogging. no one playing defense. after months of stressing the importance of delivering a competitive product, the high-scoring affair left commissioner adam silver appearing unenthused presenting

the trophy. >> city of indianapolis, thank you for the fantastic hospitality. herb simon, he's owned this team for 41 years, the longest standing governor in nba history. thank you very much. to your son steve, as well. and to the eastern conference all-stars, you scored the most points. well, congratulations. >> even the biggest nba fans i know think the all-star weekend is a disaster and should be blown up. seems like the commissioner might be among them now. what is the point of that? let's turn to college hoops, katty. >> i'm so glad ali is here. maybe she can help. i'm useless at this point. >> we're glad you're here. >> i didn't see it. >> ohio state stunned number two purdue last night, beating the boilermakers 73-69, in the debut of the buckeyes' interim head coach.

ohio state lost 9 of the last 11 games and hired its long-time head coach on they rallied and early favorite to be the top seed in next month's ncaa tournament. cue the fans storming the court. a less happy scene in new york city. hopes for a march madness bid are dwindling for st. john's, which coughed up a 19-point lead last night in its eighth defeat in the past ten games. the loss to seton hall sinks the red storm to 14-12 overall, now sliding to ninth place in the big east with just five games left in the regular season. hall of fame coach rick pitino in his first year with st. john's did not hold back his disappointment after the game. >> we just lacked toughness. we just don't move our feet on defense. we are so non-athletic that we can't guard anybody without fouling. really, it's not about losing.

because even in winning, when we watch the film, i see unathletic plays. i see people that don't handle the ball, that are just interested in taking quick shots. it's been a disappointing year. even the celtics, when we lost, i've enjoyed every minute being the boston celtic coach. didn't like the fact we lost the following year, but this has been the most unenjoyable experience i've had since i've been coaching. look, i'm disappointed. i don't want to say the wrong things, but i'm disappointed in my team. >> tell us how you really think. >> as the boston celtics fan, i'll tell you, i didn't enjoy rick pitino's time coaching the team. he's throwing the players under the bus, and i'm sure that'll help with recruiting next year. taking no blame for what has been a disappointing season. >> ah, yes. okay. still ahead on "morning joe," nbc's andrea joyce will join us live on the heels of her exclusive interview with vice president harris on the sidelines of the munich security conference.

plus, ranking member of the foreign affairs committee, gregory meeks of new york, will also be a guest. "morning joe" will be right back. i have moderate to severe crohn's disease. now, there's skyrizi. ♪ things are looking up, i've got symptom relief. ♪ ♪ control of my crohn's means everything to me. ♪ ♪ control is everything to me. ♪

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the shrinking number of dairy farms across new york state and what it could mean for the industry across america. according to new data from the usda, half of new york's dairy farms from a decade ago no longer exist. whether from rising production costs, national market changes, or both. the shuttered farms highlight a trend in the dairy industry struggle to stay afloat amid labor and production costs, soaring 50% since 2017. drink your milk, everybody. "the houston chronicle" is covering a federal judge's skepticism on a new texas law that would give state authorities power to arrest migrants. governor abbott and republican lawmakers call the record number of border crossings an invasion. judge david ezra pushed back on the argument last week, saying he has not seen evidence of any type of military invasion in the state. the law is set to take effect on march 5th and would make it a crime to enter texas from mexico without permission.

allowing law enforcement officers to arrest anyone who they suspect entered the state illegally. watch that border. and in tennessee, "the chattanooga free press" is spotlighting the record number of organ donations across the u.s., marking an 8.7% increase in transplants performed last year. despite the increase, the waiting list for transplant recipients, well, that remains long. some people may reach the top but still have to wait for a compatible donor. the health resources and services administration continues to encourage people to sign up for the organ donor registry. coming up, quote, the right goes gaga. no, we don't mean the pop star. the washington bureau chief at "the economist" will join us with his cover story on the so-called global anti-globalist alliance. "morning joe" coming right back with that. ♪ just dance it'll be okay ♪ ♪ just dance dance dance just dance ♪

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david, you've been busy. before you went to munich, your column from last week is titled, "three crises give biden a chance to prove his doubters wrong." what are they? >> everyone is wondering the question, is joe biden too old to run to be president again? does he have the stuff to be a strong leader? he does have three crises ahead that can show the country that he is strong and tough in dealing with issues. the three, obviously, are the gaza war, coming down to a showdown between him and israeli prime minister netanyahu. he wants to keep fighting, wants the war to continue. it's up to biden to challenge him and say no.

the interest of the united states, the interest of the israel require a different course. will he do that? second, obviously, the war in ukraine. it is now in a desperate situation with the death of navalny. we've been talking about it, the advances of russian troops on the ground. biden must find a way to get that aid package to ukraine. otherwise, they're in terrible trouble. they're on the verge of giving up more ground. can he do it? can he find the resources as leader? can he fight, not pat himself on the back for how well he's done in the back but fight now? the final thing, obviously, is the border. let's be honest, the democrats have not responded to that issue adequately in biden's three years. the time has come to do something. congress won't do anything. biden needs to take that issue away from them and act unilaterally with executive orders. the white house is thinking right now, what are the things we can do without congressional authority that will show the country we're acting? some of them may get bounced by the courts, but i'd be surprised

in the next couple weeks if there aren't actions taken by biden that will surprise people. people will say, this is like trump, and that's biden's way of showing, i take this issue seriously. we'll see. as we say in tennis, it's on his racket. can he hit the ball? >> we'll have more on those crises later in the show today. david, let's circle back thatto navalny. newly widowed, spoke there at munich moments after learning her husband died. tell us about that. also, the leading american representative there was the vice president, kamala harris. tell us what you thought of what she said in that important moment. >> so that was surely the most moving part of this conference. the news broke on all of us, broke in my ear on this show. on the floor of the conference,

vice president harris got up. news was still hardly unconfirmed. she gave a statement right at the outset of her speech that spoke to this terrible tragedy. she didn't have the details, and she said, we'll get back to you with more details as they become available. it wasn't a strong, decisive speech, but at least she spoke to it. in general, this was a pretty good performance by her. and then this electrifying moment, where the widow of the man who just died, her face to my eyes, still puffy from tears of sadness for her husband, addressing this audience and saying, "i try to think, should i go back and be with my children in this moment when i heard the news, or should i be with you here?" saying, "i know what my husband would have done. he would have been here." that was electrifying for the

audience. as i said earlier in the show, i think it really shaped the whole three days of the conference. you know, her voice echoed in people's ears. >> of course, her decision to be there reminiscent of her husband deciding to go back to russia when he knew incarceration and likely death awaited him. that is, indeed, what happened. "the washington post"'s david ignatius, thank you so much for joining us this morning. we really appreciate it. still ahead here on "morning joe," we're marking this presidents' day with a look at abraham lincoln's powerful vision of democracy that guided him through the civil war, and why it's still relevant today. "morning joe" will be right back.

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mail-in voting is totally corrupt. get that through your head. it has to be. the votes, i mean, it has to be. you must vote. you must go and vote. remember, the primary is

tuesday, february 27th. we need you to get out and vote to set the stage for november. go vote. november 27th. >> that's donald trump continuing his years' long campaign against early and mail-in voing saturday night during his rally in michigan. his fellow republicans wish he'd stop doing that. i don't know if you caught it, he mixed up the primary date in the state, telling his supporters to vote on both february 27th and november 27th. if they wait for the latter date, probably won't help his cause. welcome back to "morning joe." it is monday, february 19th. it is presidents' day. i'm jonathan lemire. just top of 7:00 a.m. i'm alongside katty kay. we're in for joe, mika, and willie. joining the conversation in washington, we have chief white house correspondent "new york times," peter baker. former cia officer marc

polymeropoulos. and host of "andrea mitchell reports," andrea mitchell. and writer from "the economist." we are still talking about the seismic fallout from the death of alexei navalny and and a little of basketball. >> and trump's sneakers. >> chuck rosenberg, i could see him wearing the sneakers, but, unfortunately, the camera didn't show it. russia's prison system announced navalny's death on friday. following the news, many russians laid flowers at makeshift memorials for the late opposition leader. that night, hundreds of unsanctioned vigils were held across the country, including this one in st. petersburg. the vigils have led to widespread arrests and detentions.

more than 400 people have been detained since the news broke of navalny's death. meanwhile, president biden is blaming vladimir putin for navalny's death. the russian federal prison service says he died while in custody on friday. he was serving a 19-year sentence on charges of extremism. hours after his death was announced, president biden delivered remarks lauding navalny's life. the president also called on house republicans to pass funding to aid ukraine in its war against russia. >> he bravely stood up to the corruption, the violence, and the -- all the bad things that the putin government is doing. in response, putin had him poisoned, had him arrested, had him prosecuted for fabricated crimes, sentenced him to prison, he was held in isolation. even all that didn't stop him from calling out putin's lies. even in prison, he was a powerful voice of the truth,

which is kind of amazing when you think about it. make no mistake, make no mistake, putin is responsible for navalny's death. putin is responsible. what has happened to navalny is yet more proof of putin's brutality. this tragedy reminds us of the stakes of this moment. we have to provide the funding so ukraine can keep defending itself against putin's vicious onslaught and war crimes. you know, there was a bipartisan senate vote that passed overwhelmingly in the united states senate to fund ukraine. now, as i've said before, and i mean this in a literal sense, history is watching. history is watching the house of representatives. the failure to support ukraine at this critical moment will never be forgotten. it's going to go down in the pages of history. it really is. it's consequential. the clock is ticking. this has to happen. we have to help now. you know, we have to realize

what we're dealing with with putin. >> peter, the president very clearly taking this moment of navalny's death, of russia having a victory on the field in ukraine, to try to galvanize members of the house. republican members of the house to push forward with this aid package to ukraine. you've just come back from the munich security conference, as well. seems everyone has flown in from munich to join us this morning. >> we appreciate it. >> what to you think the chances are of america now doing more to help ukraine? >> the white house definitely hopes that navalny has changed the calculus a little bit. they're a reminder of putin's brutality, to use the word the president used, will galvanize republicans who, historically, of course, have supported measures tough on russia. but, of course, they're out of pocket for the next two weeks, and we know how this works. politics is an efemoral moment. when they come back, it's possible the moment will have faded and the opportunity will have passed.

we'll see. you heard speaker johnson seem to indicate he thinks it is important to do something to stand up to russia, but it doesn't mean he'll put it on the floor. he's got his own freedom caucus pushing on the other side, and he is under a lot of pressure and not tested as speaker yet. >> putin seems to have the momentum. navalny's death, the victory on the battlefield, and the talk from donald trump not suggesting united states will pull out of nato but encouraging russia to invade nato nations who don't pay their fair share. andrea, you were also in munich and spoke to vice president harris on the sidelines of the conference and asked about the former president's comments attacking nato. >> do you think vladimir putin has been emboldened by what donald trump said about nato and putin? >> i mean, the idea that the former president of the united states would say that he, quote,

encourages, encourages a brutal dictator to invade our allies, and that the united states of america would simply stand by and watch, no previous united states president, regardless of their party, has bowed down to a russian dictator before. now, we are seeing an example, something i just believe that the american people would never support, which is a united states president, current or former, bowing down with those kinds of words. apparently, with an intention of conduct to a russian dictator. >> that interview with the vice president coming moments, andrea, after she had spoken with president zelenskyy of ukraine. give us your sense of the two shadows over this conference. one being navalny's stunning death. the second being this fear that donald trump, were he to take

power again, could jeopardize what we all know is the post world order. >> i went to the conference traveling with senators from both parties, and i went into the conference thinking of that, the shadow of donald trump would overwhelm everything. then, of course, navalny took first place, and the emotional appearance of his widow, just a of kamala harris herself had addressed the conference, trying to rally all of the nations and speaking about putin and speaking about the isolationist, ie donald trump. a tough speech to the conference. moments later, his widow, yulia, appears on the stage, and just it was an electrifying moment, her dignity. she said she wants to be with her children. her daughter is at stanford. but she wanted to be with her children, but she said, "i thought, what would alexei do? his bravery, his courage going

into near certain death, imprisonment, going back after poisoned, recovering in germany, it is extraordinary, his commitment." she went to the conference as she planned to and spoke in the moments. it's amazing. i think that really overtook everyone, and it just focused the mind on vladimir putin. the subtext, of course, was donald trump, and the possibility that the conference which, two years ago, you know, in the nato meetings two years ago, heard joe biden say, "america is back." he did unite the alliance, and he reenergized nato, you know, after the trump years. now, the fear is looking at the american elections. the foreign minister of germany didn't want to attack donald trump, but she talked about the importance of standing firm against vladimir putin. the other big story was gaza.

the europeans want a cease-fire. they want a cease-fire. they want the hostages out. there are dual-citizen hostages, and she's been tag teaming blinken, going around the region and talking to everyone. they're very upset about netanyahu. netanyahu is more isolated than ever. probably on saturday, while we were all at the conference, netanyahu came out again and had a news conference and repeated his hard line against the hostage deal. the u.s. is saying, well, that's performative. that's just politics. he's driving a hard line. that's the way he bargains. the negotiations are continuing at the top level between mossad and qatar and tony blinken and egypt. yet, he keeps taking that hard line, and there were huge demonstrations against him over the weekend in jerusalem. he's really isolating himself, even with his own public.

it's critical mass developing there. there was also a lot of talk about that. i want to say something about the supplemental very quickly. obviously, peter and i were at a conference with the members of congress. lindsey graham, notably, who has always gone at the side of john mccain, the senate delegation was named by lindsey graham, the first to lead the senate group there. last minute, he said, "i talked to donald trump, and he told me the border is a more important national security threat," so he went to the border with tim scott. his absence was sorely felt. that was symbolic. but i have to tell you, i talked to the democratic leadership, as well. hakeem jeffreys saying, "i have ways to get this to the floor." the senators, democratic as well as republicans, told me, and nancy pelosi, who was there, is always there, there's never been a bill that had this kind of majority in both houses that doesn't somehow get passed. they think there is a way, even

without the discharge petition. i don't know what that is. >> speaker johnson a key figure. democrats looking for ways around it. its fate remains uncertain as of this hour. never more keenly needed by the ukrainians, marc. they've been saying for weeks now, we're running out of ammunition. the tides of war are turning against us, and that is now happening. russia captured a key city, their first victory in months. they did this over the weekend. there is momentum building. there could be more. as you analyze the battlefield, tell us about that. the state of combat and just how dire it would be for the ukrainians if the supplemental doesn't go through and the u.s. doesn't help out. >> jonathan, ukrainians are in trouble. you know, they lack accu in addition -- ammunition and air defense. the loss of the city to the east by donetsk is related to that. let's go back to the navalny issue. the way to honor him is to pass the supplemental. it is very clear. the ukrainians, and of course the united states, a lot of us say, russia seems to be on the

ascendency, a bit perhaps, but there's a way to counter it right at our fingertips. andrea, i hope you're right, that there is a way to pass the supplemental. if they don't, ukraine is in big trouble. we can see, and this is something i don't think we would have talked about a year ago, russia could make more battlefield gains. that'd be a big problem. >> it is interesting we had speaker johnson say, we have to stand up to russia, but he's stuck between a rock and a hard place. he can stand up to russia or donald trump. effectively, he can't do two things at once. what does he choose to do? >> it's like in the odyssey. you have to pick your poison. >> classical reference on this presidents' day morning. >> yeah. >> i like it. >> points for that. >> you're right, i mean -- >> i didn't have that on my "morning joe" bingo card. >> you're right. you know, if he goes through with this, if he does pass the supplemental with democratic votes overwhelmingly and with the opposition of his caucus, that's it for him.

they're already annoyed at him for passing the continued revolution. that was what failed kevin mccarthy before him. if he does that, that's the end of his speakership. that's exactly the position he is in. you know, the supplemental has been dragging on since november, right? or october, that's when biden initially proposed it. i don't know what changed. something big has to motivate it to change. i don't know. it was asked, does navalny change the calculation, and he said no. >> that was the outlier. they're trying to give the speaker political cover so they have enough votes to somehow get it on the floor and say, you know, i was outgunned there. the other thing that's happening is that this has really focused attention on seizing russian assets. that was the talk of the

conversation. the democratic congressional delegation leader said that they're looking at ways and that it could, you know, be taken up by the g7. there are a lot of ways different countries could do it individually. they want to make sure that russia never sees its money and that it goes to rebuilding ukraine. there's a lot that can still be done, but, you know, you're absolutely right, that there's a scenario, if there is no american money, this is a scenario where they think ukraine can fall within a year. >> peter, is there more the white house can do here? president biden, you know, spoke forcefully about this friday, but it does seem like they feel their hands are tied. >> they do feel their hands are tied. it is how much they misjudged the politics of this for months. i went back and thought about this. last summer, they were saying, oh, we got this. it's not a problem. don't worry. they'll give it to us. we have mitch mcconnell. what's the problem going to be? they're overconfident month after month. december, i was at a thing where white house people were saying,

yeah, it's not going to be a problem. don't worry about it. everybody else doesn't think so. i think they were slow to see how the politics of this were to play out in the house. they misjudged probably by putting the border money into the package that they delivered in the fall in the first place, because it invited the republican argument into the door, right? by mixing those two issues, then they tethered the ukraine aid to an issue which they were never going to get, it seems like, obviously with donald trump involved. you know, any agreement the republicans would go along with. >> certainly, they overestimated the influence mitch mcconnell still has. he is a diminished figure there. >> absolutely. the difference between the senate and the house is not the same. >> while the fate of the supplemental is up in the air, marc, we have new reporting from courtney kube at nbc news, the u.s. leaning toward sending the longer range atacms missiles. you've been calling for this for a long time.

what's a difference if they send it? >> it puts more into play. what the ukrainians believe is crimea is a key target for them. the more they can launch long-range missiles at crimea, look what they've done. they've almost shut down the black sea fleet. so this would help measurably -- i smiled when you said this because i think i've been on this show a half a dozen times howling about the atacms. this is an element opportunity if the supplemental gets through, and it can make a difference. it's something the ukrainians want and need. >> zelenskyy told kamala harris they still don't have the f-16s. the backlog of things promised but not delivered is another thing. >> it's frustration among people saying, we're going to give these things eventually, so let's give them early when it could still make a difference, rather than playing catchup and give them these weapons when they're already losing on the battlefield potentially. back in 2022, hungarian prime minister orban spoke at

the political action conference in dallas. here's what he said. >> my country, hungary, is the lone star state of europe. [ applause ] we have seen what kind of future the globalist ruling club has to offer. but we have a different future in mind. the globalists can all go to hell. i have come to texas. >> the globalist ruling club. orban, who has been in office since 2010, has become a leading figure in recent years among the global far right, drawing praise for his hypernationalist, anti-immigrant, and pro-russia policy agenda. donald trump endorsed orban in his 2022 election with the hungarian prime minister returning the favor for trump this election cycle. idress, you wrote a cover story requester "the economist,"

titled, "the right goes gaga, meet the globalist anti-global society." you write about the rise of nationalist in the word. quote, when george orwell pondered nationalism in the waning days of the second world war 2, he wrote, it is powered hunger tempered by self-deception. every nationalist is capable of the most flagrant dishonesty, but he's also unshakaby certain of being in the right. mr. trump, hungarian's viktor orban, and jaroslaw kaczynski, are socon vinced of their correctness, they don't mind subverting the state. it is an obstruction that ought to be made more compliant. mr. trump even went as far as trying o'overturn an election. national conservatism fits that

their movement is compatible, if not antagonistic to, democracy, yet most are intent on remaining in power. it's already dominated right-wing politics and it could affect the 2024 election. that's cheerful. >> happy presidents' day. >> i like how you tie it to other countries in europe. there is a tendency in the u.s. to think that trump and trumpism and the threat to democracy are uniquely american problems. actually, you're putting in part of a global movement. are we at a turning point with a new global order. >> you could make that point. you look at what's happening in america, in poland. in italy, in the uk, brexit happened, and, already, conservatives like braverman, much more in the anti-migrant, populist vein, are scheming to

replace sunak, the prime minister. what this piece tries to make the point of, there is an intellectual reformation happening in conservatism. actually, the new basis for what makes a conseative is reaganism turned upside down. i think you need to pay attention. as with all political movements, you know, power happens, and ideology fills in the gaps. if donald trump wins again, this kind of makes a new basis for conservatism. that's important. america needs a great tradition on the right and a great tradition on the left. you see that that's not happening. >> to what extent is it just, perhaps, a predictable reaction against the forces of globalization, that swept through us in the '80s and '90s but left people behind? you had a conglomeration of

people who felt they hadn't benefitted from globalization. you saw this spread of inequality in europe and in the united states. this is a kickback against that with charismatic leaders who say, look, i'm out for you. i'm out for the little guy. whether you're from the left or the right doesn't matter. it's the little guy against the big guys, against the establishment. >> that is a common thread. there are three things that unite this movement, you know, across countries. it is a hostilities trade. a feeling that globalization has gone too far. a hostility of migration, a feeling there's too much mixing, particularly of the irregular kind, and a fear of the hegemonic left and what it's become. >> in the united states, the reaction to the anti-globalist beginnings. the irony is you hear from agricultural people, big business, they need migration. they need labor. we're developing a labor

shortage here in the united states. the border issue, it's certainly an immigration issue, has the most compelling force behind it. >> doesn't make economic sense. >> it's fascinating how it is tied up with the pro-russia thing. i understand the migration thing. i understand the nationalist, you know, people that got left behind. i don't get the bit about where this is tied in with, well, that makes us supporters of strongmen. >> putin presented himself as a defender of traditional civilization, right? christianity, orthodox in his case, but anti-lgbtq rights, anti-transgenderism, decadence of the west. he's made a common cause with part of the political system that, in the past, was anti-russia, when russia was perceived to be left as a communist nation. now, putin is doing it from the other side on the ultra right. he's making common cause in europe with the various right-wing parties there through this culture war, in effect. he is doing the same thing here in our own domestic ppolitics. >> only donald trump could have energized this pro-putin part of

the republican establishment. it's so counterintuitive. i mean, putin is -- >> i think one thing to add is the economies of europe, some of them are in trouble. look what happened in the uk. the announcement of the last several days that uk may fall into a recession. that'll have an effect. >> "the economist's" idrees kahloon, thank you for coming in. classical reference, we liked that. hostage negotiations between israel and hamas has prime minister benjamin netanyahu pushes ahead with a ground offensive in southern gaza. much more on donald trump's mounting legal problems and what it could mean for his campaign ahead of the pivotal south carolina gop primary which is coming up this weekend. and there are a lot of polls where president biden isn't doing well. but a new survey by historians has him way ahead of donald trump. we're digging into the new

findings. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. ♪ i felt the earth beneath my feet ♪ ♪♪

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i'm running against him because i don't think he should be the right -- i don't think he's the right person at the right time. i don't think he should be president. the last thing on my mind is who i'm going to support. the only thing on my mind is how we're going to win this. the only thing on my mind is how we're going to make sure that we correct what's happening in america and we bring this country back together, allow her to heal, and move on in a strong way. i'm not thinking about who i'm going to support in an election. >> but you've already said it. >> we are going to have a -- we are going to have a female president of the united states. it will either be me or it will

be kamala harris. if donald trump is the nominee for the republican party, he will not win. every poll shows that. he will not win. and we will have a president kamala harris. i'm not going to allow that to happen. i'm not stopping. i'm not going anywhere. we're going to do this for the long haul. we're going to finish it. >> does that mean you will not support him if he is the republican nominee? >> that means i'm going to run and i'm going to win. y'all can talk about support later. right now, you can ask him if he is going to support me when i'm the nominee. >> republican presidential candidate nikki haley speaking with abc news yesterday, declining to say this time whether she'll still plan to support donald trump if he eventually becomes the gop nominee for president. we should note, an important week for haley. south carolina primary looms. it's her home state. polls suggest he'll lose and lose badly. she has the money to stay in beyond that, and she said she would. michigan, super tuesday, and beyond. we shall see if she does, though. we'll have lots of coverage of south carolina as it approaches this weekend.

peter, on this presidents' day, you have a piece in "the new york times" that's looking at a new survey ranking u.s. presidents. you write in part this, "president biden has not had a lot of fun in polls lately. he has a lower approval rating than every president going back to dwight d. eisenhower at this point in the tenure, and he trails former president donald j. trump in a fall rematch. but mr. biden can take solace from one survey in which he is way out in front of mr. trump. a new poll of historians ranks mr. biden as the 14th best president in american history. just ahead of woodrow wilson, ronald reagan, and ulysses s. grant. while he may not get a place on mount rushmore, he is ahead of trump, who is dead last as the worst president ever. in the 6:00 hour, i made a mention of arthur." >> supporters call you? >> i'm waiting by the phone.

i hope you'll mention franklin pierce at some point. >> i will. >> another overlooked president. >> yeah. >> tell us about this ranking here and why historians rank him 14th. pretty good. what are the reasons? >> i can make a good case for chester mcarthur. he is underrated. >> that'll be in the 10:00 hour. >> every president is appealing to two constituencies. one the american public. you can't be president without their support. the other is history. every president has his and eventually her eye on where they are in history and what mark they'll leave. this president saw himself as another fdr. we can argue about that, but he wanted to make his mark. to have this poll is gratifying. now, can you genuinely measure an incumbent president's place in history when he is not even done? of course not. it'll depend, in part, on whether or not he wins this fall. if he loses and ushers donald trump back into the presidency, that will definitely affect historians' view of his presidency. in any case, what it says is

they are respecting him for having ousted trump in the first place and trying to restore the presidency and the country to a certain degree of normalcy. it also says something about donald trump, of course, that he is dead last. they do not consider him -- they consider him worse than james buchanan, franklin pierce, and the 19th century failures who got it into the civil war and mismanaged it afterwards. >> jon meacham just lobbied for polk to be in the top ten. for the record, the top five, in order, lincoln, fdr, washington, teddy roosevelt, thomas jefferson. katty, i recall there was a survey a few years ago when it came out, also had trump last. the descendents of buchanan, who traditionally is ranked last, were thrilled and gave interviews saying, "finally, we're not bringing up the rear." >> franklin pierce is in the line of barbara bush. >> i've gone to his grave there.

>> i have, as well, peter. >> okay. let's go from history to the present hostage negotiations between israel and hamas. they've stalled, as andrea was talking about. saturday, prime minister benjamin netanyahu explained hamas refused to budge on what he says are, quote, ludicrous demands. the terrorist group wants to remain in power in gaza, see a full withdrawal of israeli troops, and wants the release of thousands of palestinian prisoners. now, netanyahu says his negotiators will not return for further discussions. the comments come as israeli forces continue to press ahead with their offensive in rafah, a move netanyahu says will continue even if a hostage deal is reached. the biden administration has been warning against the operation, urging israel to avoid any action without first keeping civilians in gaza safe. netanyahu, however, says anyone who is against the operation is effectively telling israel to, quote, lose the war.

meanwhile, the world health organization says a hospital in gaza's largest city is no longer functional at all. israeli forces raided the medical complex last week amid intelligence reports hamas was hiding hostages there. now, the gaza health ministry says the remaining fuel supply has run out and there is no power for heat. the w.h.o. says it tried to deliver fuel over the weekend but officials were not allowed to enter the building. joining us now, nbc news correspondent hala gorani. give us the latest on the negotiations. what is it, three weeks ago when bill burns went to paris and met with the egyptians and qataris in paris. it looked hopeful. he wouldn't have flown there unless a deal was imminent. what's happening? what is the status at the moment? >> the head of mossad, the cia, the qatari prime minister, egyptian chief met in cairo.

after that, there was some negotiation inside of israel, as well. the qataris were hopeful. i've been speaking to high-level officials there briefed on the talks. what they're saying is right now, it's not looking very good. the positions are too far apart. benjamin netanyahu has called a cease-fire proposal of hamas ludicrous. it seems right now as though what the u.s. is pushing for, and not just the u.s., katty and jonathan, france, italy, all these western capitals that, in the beginning, were pretty reluctant to tell israel to kind of step back on its offensive, are now saying to israel, look, these civilian casualties are really, really over the top. over the top is the expression that president biden used. and there has to be some sort of humanitarian pause. also a pause to allow for the release of the hostages. >> hala, stand by. we'll return to you in a moment to talk about your new book.

andrea, on this subject here, tell us the latest that you've heard. two things are true at once. it does seem that there's netanyahu continuing to put up roadblocks here with the hostages, but also really, the u.s. really leaning on them privately, for the most part, about the situation in rafah. saying, "you have to somehow safeguard the civilians there if you're going all in," but the civilians have nowhere to go. >> that is a red line with the white house. what people are asking is, why has the white house continued to arm israel? more and more people are taking that position in europe, at munich, as well, european leaders. because rafah is just an impossible situation. it will be a killing field, more of a killing field. now, negotiators are still talking, even though the technical teams have withdrawn by israel from cairo. at the top level, shin bet leaders are still talking to bill burns. the qataris over the weekend, for the first time, were really

discouraged. they were, you know, telling me that they were still saying there's a chance. i interviewed them before, when there were still conversations. the talks went well. the big problem is the original counteroffer, when it arrived, was viewed very positively by the u.s., qataris, and others. the number one issue was the hostage prisoners and names. they were too many and the worst, according to israel. but the rest worked. hamas had told the u.s. that, this is just an opening offer. this is not our final offer. they were okay where the first phase. they were okay with who -- which hostages would come out. everybody was together on everything but the palestinian prisoners, which is a big if, but they thought it was negotiable. netanyahu keeps saying we're not

going to negotiate. he is allowing the talks to continue but he's taken such a hard line, he's further isolated himself in israel. protests were very big again this weekend. they don't know how to get past this. the pressure is going to really build on president biden to oppose the arms. >> i had new reporting over the weekend, how biden's frustration level with netanyahu is off the charts right now. described in phrases we can't repeat on live television. marc, give us your analysis, to andrea's point, about the killing field. what would this look like, this operation, if israel goes in and those civilians are still largely there? >> well, first of all, i think the operation is not ready. some of this is posturing by the israelis. their combat forces are in the center of gaza and still in the north, so they're not ready for rafah. that's something we have to understand. but make no mistake, this would be really bloody. i think that the idf knows this. certainly, there will be talks with the u.s. on how to mitigate

some of this. will netanyahu listen? one key point, and i go back to my old boss, george tenet, involved in the peace process in the '90s. he said, process is important. keep talking. certainly, there is some reason for pessimism now, the fact that all parties are still discussing, a very good thing. last piece, you don't know what will happen on break-through high targets that will be killed by israelis, and will that change? will political pressure build on netanyahu to do more? >> ramadan is three weeks away. that's the big fear. >> hala, your book comes out tomorrow. it's titled, "but you don't look arab and other tales of unbelonging." in it, you detail your experiences covering the middle east, taking readers on a journey of self-discovery and political awakening that crosses borders and generations. in one section, you write about a cross country trip you took in syria in 2005, just five years after bashar al assad became

president. you write, "over the past few years, the country has been slowly modernizing and opening its borders to toursists and foreign investment after decades of isolation under former president hafez al-assad. they chose to believe it'd be likelier to be set free because they'd tasted freedom themselves. i can see the seeds of the 2011 revolution when a young, mobile, ambitious generation of arabs witnessed the arab spring uprisings and believed they, too, could ask for more freedom and opportunity. today, as i read my notes, i feel a quasi-physical pain, knowing that the hopes of the university students i interviewed that day were likely never realized. the country's youth would later be betrayed, shot, imprisoned, or exiled. they were sacrificed." hala, you describe so beautifully there that moment of hope that we saw in the middle

east, only to be squashed. i mean, nowhere more brutally than syria. of course, where your parents came from. >> absolutely. 2005 was when we started feeling, and there was this kind of impetus, young people were infused with this notion that they could speak out, that they could, little by little -- you started having in egypt, as well, these kind of private publications and magazines and young people who had studied abroad, who chose to come back to the middle east in order to work and live and, you know, have families and children there. that led to 2011. 2011 was this very brief flash. it was almost like the flash of a photo, of a camera. and then everything just came crumbling back down. as an arab-american, as someone whose parents were from syria,

i, of course, felt that emotional connection. it wasn't like being parachuted into a story where i had no social or familial connections. it was something really incredibly tragic when, in the end, what these revolutionaries wanted to get rid of, they wanted to overthrow these regimes. what came in their place was much, much worse. unfortunately, some people have told me, you know, i wish this arab spring had never happened. it's something i talk about in the book. even though it's a trial run and, i'm sure in the grand arc of history we'll see it was a necessary step, what it led to, the destruction, the loss of family and land, is something so painful, that some people told me, "i wish we were back in hal. i want to double back to israel and the ongoing conflict there and in gaza. i look at this usually from the

domestic politics perspective, and so i'd be interested in applying that to your reporting internationally. what i've seen on the campaign trail is so many protests of republican and democratic contenders in the name of protesting palestinian lives. when you look at the way that is overlaid with the ongoing negotiations that andrea and marc and everyone here at the table have talked about, what is the domestic pressure look like on what someone like president biden can sustain from netanyahu and from the israelis as these negotiations go on? >> so i found that there is a fascinating difference between how this particular conflict, this war, this israeli operation is viewed, especially among younger people. those people who have access to social media. compare it to 2014, this was the last large-scale israeli operation inside the gaza strip. there are so many more voices now covering this conflict. those voices and that coverage and that content, which is really on our phones, is getting

to younger people. we see in so many, ali, of these domestic campaign events, young people protesting the biden administration's approach to its relationship with israel, demanding a cease-fire. we're seeing also, and this is something i write about in my book as far as arab-americans, the islamophobia, the rise of anti-semitism, all of this is creating a perfect domestic storm of pressure, not just on the biden administration but on western leaders across europe. i live in london. every single saturday practically since october 7th, we are seeing tens of thousands of people on the streets of the british capital asking for an immediate cease-fire. this new media landscape, social media, younger people, if you look at polling, very, very much more likely to be pro-palestinian, to put it crudely. essentially anti-israeli operation in the gaza strip.

much more likely than a decade ago. the difference in how this conflict is being perceived by younger people is absolutely immense just in the last ten years. it's one of the most important facets of covering this story, i think. >> the new book is your reporting and also your personal story. i grew up in the middle east for 20 years. i can't wait to read it. it is called "but you don't look arab and other tales of unbelonging." it comes out tomorrow. congratulations, hala. thank you so much for joining us on the program. former cia officer marc polymeropoulos, thank you, as well. andrea mitchell, we'll be watching "andrea mitchell reports" weekdays at noon. of course, the great interview you did with the vice president, as well. coming up on this presidents' day morning, a conversation on abraham lincoln's legacy and how his leadership through the first great crisis of american democracy can apply to the current fight against anti-democratic threats here. that's straight ahead on

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all we've done is show the world that democracy isn't chaos. that there is a great, invisible strength in a people's union. we've shown that a people can endure awful sacrifice and, yet, cohear? might it be a democracy idea of democracy to aspire to? eventually to become worthy of? at all rates, whatever may be proven by blood and sacrifice must have been proved by now.

shall we stop this bleeding? >> that is of course the actor daniel day-lewis portraying president abraham lincoln in the 2012 film. he's always good. on this presidents' day, many say that american democracy is facing its biggest test since lincoln led the country through the civil war. joining us now, award-winning historian and best-selling author alan c.guelzo. "our ancient faith." congratulations on the book. let's start right there with that premise, that this nation right now is facing its greatest test since the civil war. what can we learn from lincoln as we face it? >> well, i think there was a sense in the atmosphere of almost palpable anxiety about democracy, democracy in america, democracy around the world.

i can remember back in 1989 when the berlin wall came down, and two years later the soviet union implodes. we thought democracy was the coming thing. we talked about it as being the end of history. and then, over the last 30-some years, we have seen that fail. we've seen an authoritarian regime take hold of russia. we've seen one of the world's biggest economies, if not the biggest economy, in the hands of a totalitarian system. and people wonder, are we really seeing the bankruptcy of democracy? that's a question we ask ourselves today. what i want to do in our ancient faith is to talk about lincoln and democracy, because over and over again, when people confront this question about democracy, we look back, we look back especially to the figure of lincoln, because he was the president of the united states at this time of terrible,

terrible crisis, when the whole american experiment looked like it was about to go up, quite literally, in smoke. and the phrase itself tells you the deal, "our ancient faith." he uses those words in 1854 in a great speech he gave in peoria, illinois, and he speaks of our ancient faith being democracy, that we should embrace democracy, almost with the same kind of fervor that religious devotees would embrace a religion. then what are the components of this? he actually goes on in that speech to talk about what he thinks is the bedrock of democracy, which is the consent of the governed. he says that's -- that is the sheet anchor of this american experiment in democracy, this american republic. for him, what especially that meant was the opposite of slavery. but you start with consent of

the governed, from that you draw a number of really important points. >> yet, allen, you write in the book that he wasn't without occasionally his own authoritarian tendencies. he shut down newspapers in new york. he would imprison people just on suspicion of opposition to him or treasonous talk against him. and you write that you think if it came to -- if he were alive today, in 2024, the person that he would endorse for the presidency is not joe biden but donald trump. >> well, two things there. one is, yes, there were moments in lincoln's presidency when he reaches for what today we might stigmatize as some very authoritarian solutions, and yet when you back off for a moment and look at them, you begin to realize that a lot of these happened incidental to the business of waging a civil war. civil war. it's a catastrophic affair. i think that when you look at

lincoln in the long term, the dents he puts in that are relatively minor. if what he had done was really something that threatened subversion, i think we would have required some kind of magic pouder to get over it. but then comes the question, what about today? and i -- almost everywhere i go today, people are asking exactly that question. who would lincoln endorse? and i, first of all -- what i have to say is i don't know. i mean, lincoln's been dead for 158 years. so, i can't consult him. but when you do history, it's not the same as doing prophesy. the answer you have to give is i don't know. it's like asking if lincoln would use an uber. and what he'd probably say is, what's an uber? so, it doesn't translate easily. but something that does go along with that, and perhaps shed a

little bit of light, is that lincoln was -- on the one hand, he was very much a party loyalist. identify case with a political party was extremely important for lincoln. and sometimes that meant over his career he endorsed people that he did not agree with. but at the same time, he also, during the civil war, calls upon all americans, calls especially upon democrats and republicans in his day, to take a step above party, to wage what he called a better battle on behalf of american principles. that, i think, is the lincoln that we want to hear today. >> yeah. i think that is certainly true. the book is "our ancient faith: lincoln, democracy, and the american experiment:" allen c. guelzo, thanks for joining us this morning. congrats on the book. peter, two thoughts here, i think old honest abe would probably give a five-star uber rating. secondly, as alex jokes here, i can see already the truth social posts in the works, donald trump saying, abraham lincoln would

have endorsed me. >> yeah. remember, he's done more for african americans than anybody except maybe lincoln. allen knows more about lincoln -- has forgotten more about lincoln than the rest of us will ever know. but there's a radical difference between abraham lincoln and donald trump's view of the world. it's hard to see the two of them in the same sentence, honestly. abraham lincoln is number one in that survey, donald trump at the end of that survey. very different. it was about bringing the country together, and there's not what donald trump is about. >> no. donald trump's signature political move is divisiveness. that's what he does. chief white house correspondent, thank you for sharing your presidents' day morning with us. up next here on "morning joe," after a judge fined donald trump more than $350 million and barred him from running

businesses in new york for three years, we're going to break down what this means for his finances and empire moving forward. plus, we'll show you the latest line of merchandise the former president is hawking to his loyal base of supporters. going fast, apparently. and also ahead, academy award-win progress deusser brian grazer will join us with a look at his new docuseries about the rise and fall of the new england patriots. i guarantee you i'll be watching that.

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today, justice has been served. today we've proved that no one is above the law no matter how rich, powerful, or politically connected you are. everyone must play by the same rules. this decision is a massive victory for every american who believes in that simple but fundamental pillar of our democracy, that the rule of law applies to all of us equally,

fairly, and justly. >> that was new york attorney general letitia james speaking friday after the financially devastating civil fraud ruling against donald trump. we'll explain that judgment and what it means for trump's finances. also ahead, we'll bring you the latest fallout following the death of alexei navalny as russia cracks down on any show of support for the now-deceased opposition leader. plus, the israeli government is rejecting any recognition of a potential palestinian state while its forces move forward with an offensive near the city of rafah, the last refuge for palestinians in gaza. we'll go through all of those major developments out of the middle east. good morning, and welcome to "morning joe." it is monday, february 19th, president's day. i'm jonathan lemire along with u.s. special correspondent for bbc news katty kay. we're in for joe, mika, and willie on this holiday.

with us in washington, we have former u.s. attorney and msnbc contributor chuck rosenberg as well as columnist and associate editor from "the washington post" david ignatius. chuck, we'll come to you in a moment about all these legal developments. david, let's begin here. you were on our air on friday when word broke that alexei navalny had died in this siberian prison, a longtime opposition leader to vladimir putin. you were at this global munich security conference rocked by this news. give us your impressions. you were there for a few day, coming back to washington. what is the reaction on the world stage to what we've seen? >> i think the death of navl any and also the defeat of ukrainian troops in on saturday cast a real shadow over the conference. i went there expecting that this would be about european angst about the possible election of donald trump, trump's threats to

pull back from nato, that whole chorus of the european concerns. in the end, it wasn't, it was about the very vivid new demonstration of the threat that vladimir putin poses to ukraine but also to europe. and over and over people talked about standing firm against putin, but putin just hung over the stage there in munich as a figure of menace for everybody who was there. there was talk in a much more serious way about how to fight back. zelenskyy came to the conference, volodymyr zelenskyy, the president of ukraine, came to the conference on saturday and gave a powerful speech. i was struck by how much he'd aged in the two years since this war began. i remember him on the eve of war, this fresh-faced, young comedian taking control. you know, he looked just pounded by his experiences as a wartime

leader. and he was very frank. unless you give us what we need, we're in terrible trouble now. russians have broken through in this city, threat of moving much faster. two conclusions from all of this. first, i think there is an understanding that ukraine desperately needs new weapons. they're running out of ammunition. that's one reason they lost this battle. they need the ammunition next week, right now. and they need long-range missiles. and there's a lot of talk about giving things that nato has held back, the united states in particular has held back, and this is attract drones that could strike much deeper. and the question of the u.s. arms package, this was a bipartisan group of u.s. senators and congressmen in munich. i heard over and over again to

my surprise from republicans as much as democrats, we are going to find a way to do this. i don't mean to be making it a prediction because i don't know enough. but i heard over and over again americans tell zelenskyy, europeans, this is going to happen. we'll find a way. it was a fight-back conversation and oh, my gosh, here comes trump. >> and these were a self-selected group, the ones that want national security. speaker johnson is the one who doesn't want to put this on the floor. let me ask you about the european side of this, because my understanding over the weekend is you had this trifecta of things, trump saying if you're not paying your dues to nato, go ahead to any enemies that might want to have them. the loss ukraine had over the weekend. then you have navalny's death. europeans are left thinking, hold on a second, are we seriously looking at a real shift in which we now have to

step up for our own security without the prospect of american leadership? my sense is we may be at a turning point. yes, europeans are stepping up with their own defense spending, the czechs and the danes saying you can have whatever we have, handing over the stocks. if american leadership goes from europe now kwhooils putin see wo be in some sort of ascendancy at home, we're looking at a shift in the world order, potentially. >> america step back from ukraine would be an abdication of our responsibility. it's shocking for me to think about it. what i heard from europeans, whatever happens, putin's threat is greater than we imagined. we have no choice. this was stated by germans, by

norwegians, by people across europe, that this really is europe's fight. america's been our crucial leader. america was trying to reassure we're going to find a way to do this. but even if that package fails, europeans were talking about ways to augment their own weapons production, shipments. the ukrainians are creating a company to build their own drones, a company to do their own electronic warfare. people were not in a mood to give in to a putin whose menace was so obvious. >> despite that optimism, munich, there's still real doubts as to whether votes exist among republicans to pass that package, even at a moment we see russia at the forefront of conversation, including the threat from space. we heard president biden declare that putin is responsible one way or another for navalny's death. we'll have much more on this story as the show goes on. >> yeah.

happy presidents' day, everybody, what a great way to start the show. on friday, we also got the judge's ruling in the civil fraud trial against donald trump, ruling the former president must pay a $355 million penalty and be barred from serving in executive roles as any new company for three years. in his decision, judge engoron also ordered the continued appointment of an independent monitor for the company, writing in part, "their complete lack of contrition and remorse borders on pathological." letitia james called the ruling a tremendous victory. >> for years, donald trump engaged in deceptive business practices and tremendous fraud. donald trump falsely, knowingly inflated his net worth by billions of dollars to unjustly enrich himself, his family, and to cheat the system.

donald trump may have authored "the art of the deal," but he perfected the art of the sale, because the scale and the scope of donald trump's fraud is staggering. and so, too, is his ego and his belief that the rules do not apply to him. today, we are holding donald trump accountable. we are holding him accountable for lying, cheating, and a lack of contrition, and for flouting the rules that all of us must play by. because there cannot be different rules for different people in this country, and former presidents are no exception. >> attorney general james says the judgment against trump totals over $450 million once you've included interest, an amount she says will continue to increase every single day until it is paid.

trump made several false claims about the ruling friday night outside of mar-a-lago. he also said he would be appealing the judgment. so, chuck rosenberg, what happens now with this case? is that done and dusted? he ends up paying and then we move on to the other cases? or do we still have news from this one if he's going to appeal? >> if he's going to appeal, he would either have to put up the money that would cover the judgment against him, a lot of money, or find someone to help him post bond. one way or other, the law is written that he can't dissipate his assets, he can't try and hide stuff. >> in a sneaker somewhere in philadelphia, for example. >> exactly. can't put them in a sneaker. if he wants to appeal, and i'm sure he does, he has to put up the money backing the judgment. that's a lot, right? remember, $355 million in new york state, plus another perhaps $100 million in interest there. and then two federal judgments

against him totalling about $90 million. that's over half a billion dollars that he could be on the hook for. >> and of course he also owes e. jean carroll another $83 million or so as well. he'll have to come up with some cash as well. apparently he's coming up with creative ways to do so. one day after finding out he was on the hook for more than $350 million, the former president unveiled a new trump-themed product to a less-than-receptive crowd. >> that's the real deal. that's the real deal. i just want to thank you very much for being here. it's an honor. an honor. you're all sneaker heads. you're sneaksneaker, right? wow. there's a lot of emotion. there's a lot of emotion in this room. [ boos ] >> thank you. >> first of all, that's the first time trump has faced a

hostile audience in a long time. it was clear he didn't -- >> i'm disappointed you're not wearing them. >> the reason why the camera is only from waist up here. no footwear reveals. that was trump at sneakercon for some reason held at philadelphia over the weekend. he rolled out a new line of shoes selling for a cool $399 a pair. trump also announced a new fragrance line priced at $99 a bottle, where each scent symbolizes, quote, victory and strength. we'll leave you to decide what that actually smells like. former litigator and msnbc legal correspondent lisa rubin. you of course were following every step of the way this trial in new york that ended -- concluded friday with this judgment of the payment that he will -- donald trump will have to provide in some way, partially funded by sneaker seams. gives your overall takeaways as what you saw on friday, any surprises to you. as chuck suggested, trump, even if appealing, he's got to come

up with that cash and soon. is there any suggestion that he can? >> well, let's start, first, john, with what i thought about the ruling, because he was really blown away by the sizedi judge engoron decided they had to give back from the fraudulent scheme. the attorneys asked for around $370 million broken up into four different components, saying these are four different ways in which they have profited from their fraud. as you know, from the ruling, they've got almost everything that they wanted in that respect. what they didn't get, on the other hand, was a lifetime ban on trump's participation in the new york commercial real estate industry or a lifetime ban on him serving as an officer or director of a new york company. and i think that's because judge engoron determined the real way to hurt donald trump here was by

making him pay and then by imposing supervision on him. he's now going to have not only a continuation of this monitorship that's been in place since 2022 run by retired federal judge barbara jones, but now they're going to have to apoint an internal but independent compliance monitor as well. and so, i think that the baby sitting component of this plus the gargantuan financial penalties is what really has some bite here. in terms of whether trump has the money to put up for appeal, in new york state, it's not just the entirety of the judgment. you actually have to put up 120% in the ordinary course to appeal. and you usually have to do that within 30 days. whether trump has that cash is really a question mark over my head and many others in part because the last time that trump himself spoke about his net worth under oath, he said he

roughly had $400 million in cash. as you well know, the judgment in the e. jean carroll case plus the judgment in this most recent case far exceeds that $400 million, and whether he has it remains to be seen. >> whether he'd have to perhaps sell some of his prize assets to cover up the rest also an open question. chuck, let's touch on another legal matter in fulton county at the end of last week, the district attorney there, fani willis, giving a pretty impassioned defense on thursday, and then the state decided not to call her. she did not appear on the stand again on friday. what's your read as to how that went on friday and where things could go next in that case? >> yeah. through a couple different prisms, jonathan, legally the defendants have to show that there was some improper financial arrangement that makes out a conflict of interest. if the defendants can show a conflict of interest, a financial one, by ms. willis hiring mr. lee when they had a

romantic relationship and that she somehow benefitted from the money that was being paid to him, that could be a conflict. they could be disqualified from the case. that's the legal part. and i don't think the defendants have succeeded yet. i mean, it's messy. it's ugly. if you've watched any of it, you probably have sort of that icky feeling when you see it. but i don't know that they've made out the disqualification grounds yet. politically, it's a mess, because there's a bunch of things that happened at the hearing that shows -- it's gotten into personal relationships between ms. willis and mr. reed. there was some contention about when that relationship started. there was a witness who might have been very important on that fact, but he didn't testify fully because mr. wade was invoking a privilege to preclude him from doing that. >> does any of that matter for

substance of the case, though? >> maybe. so, if the romantic relationship between mr. wade and ms. willis began before he was hired by her in fulton county, then the affidavit that he submitted might be false. and not only would that affidavit be false, katy, ms. willis provided that affidavit to the court in support of her contention that their relationship started subsequently. by the way, at any point -- and i was a prosecutor for a long time -- if a supervisor is having relationship with a subordinate regardless of when it starts, that's reason for the subordinate or the supervisor to step away from the case. so, in some ways, to me, it doesn't really matter when it started, but if it started before she hired him, you might have false affidavits in this case. and that, if i may, katy, raises

a separate point, even if the defendants show an actual conflict of interest. an appearance of a conflict of interest is also a problem. as prosecutors, you have to be sensitive to the appearance. so, even if the legal motion fails and the judge doesn't disqualify ms. willis or mr. wade from the case, you still have an appearance, and that's messy. >> talking about this rather than the substance of the georgia case, as well, at the moment. we've looked, lisa -- so, we've had the financial worry in the fraud case, talked about the georgia case this morning. let's talk about the jack smith case. what are you looking at over the next week or two that might give us an indication of when the january 6th case could possibly come to trial? and are you still thinking -- i think we spoke a couple months ago, and you thought it could come to trial before this summer. do you still think this summer is a reasonable time frame depending on the supreme court? >> i think this summer is the

earliest that we'll see this trial begin, katy, depend ogen what the supreme court does. the supreme court had a conference on friday. that's essentially when the justices sit around and decide not only which cases to take, but they often will discuss pending applications that are short of asking for full supreme court review, such as donald trump's motion to stay all lower-court proceedings while he appeals the d.c. circuit opinion on immunity. i think it's really possible that we'll see some determination on that motion tomorrow when the court is back in session. we know that the court is going to release what's called an orders list at 9:30 tomorrow. we also know that there might be some opinions tomorrow or later in the week. so, i think it could be a big week in terms of that case. how that cuts, i'm not really sure. i do think -- and i know that other people share this view --

that the fact that we didn't hear from the court before week's end could mean that folks are writing a dissent from whatever the determination is, whether to grant the stay or to not grant the stay. they granted colleagues on the other side of the prevailing vote an opportunity to write and say why they disagree. but, again, it's not clear to me which way that cuts. the other thing that i'm looking for this week is in the florida jack smith case before judge aileen cannon, where trump has all of his pretrial motions due. to the extent that trump is going to ask judge cannon to throw out that indictment, those motions are due on thursday of this week. they signalled that they are going to move in that case on presidential immunity as well. but recall, all the events in that indictment postdate his presidency, so he would be asking for presidential immunity for acts that he took after leaving the white house. constitutionally, i'm not sure how that shores up even on

donald trump's best legal day, and i'll be interested to see how his folks explain that on thursday. coming up, vladimir putin's leading critic dies in prison, and donald trump says nothing about it. the latest on the major developments in russia and the campaign trail when "morning joe" comes right back.

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thanks. it's happening. get started for $49.99 a month. plus, ask how to get up to a $1000 prepaid card with a qualifying internet package. don't wait, call and switch today! donald trump, as you pointed out, said just a few days ago that he had told the nato allies that he would encourage putin to do whatever he needed to do,

whatever he wanted to do. he basically made clear that, under a trump administration, the united states is unlikely to keep its nato commitments. and i think that republicans who understand the importance of the national security situation, who continue to support him, are similarly going to be held to account. you know, when you think about donald trump, for example, pledging retribution, what vladimir putin did to navalny is what retribution looks like in a country where the leader is not subject to the rule of law. and i think that we have to take donald trump very seriously. we have to take seriously the extent to which, you know, you've now got a putin wing of the republican party. i believe the issue this election cycle is making sure the putin wing of the republican party does not take over the west wing of the white house. >> donald trump is siding with a thug who kills his political opponents. he's siding with someone who has made no bones about wanting to destroy america. he's siding with someone who

arrests american journalists and holds them hostage. and he's siding with a dictator instead of siding with our allies who stood with us at 9/11. >> republican presidential candidate nikki haley and before that, former republican congresswoman liz cheney. those comments come as former president donald trump has remained noticeably silent on the death of alexei navalny. it's notable considering his comments from a week ago when he said he would encourage russia to invade nato countries if they didn't pay enough. when asked for a comment over the weekend on navalny's death, a trump campaign spokesperson deflected and referred nbc news to a social media post by the former president attacking president biden while claiming trump himself is the only person who can, quote, bring peace, prosperity, and stability to the world. trump's last public comment about navalny appears to have been back in september of 2020

when he was asked about navalny being poisoned and nearly losing his life. at the time, trump responded back then, saying, "we'll talk about that at or time," even when he's just been killed. joining us now is nbc news capitol hill correspondent ali vitali. ali, a lack of sort of information still coming out because the family haven't seen the body. they went up to the morgue where they were told it was. it wasn't there. there was some reporting over the weekend that navalny had been pushed while he was in prison. have you heard anything more on how he died? >> i have not heard anything more. but if i look at the way on a domestic political front this is being received, you have the white house clear in their statements about the way that this looks on the world stage, of course condemning russia and putin. you have nikki haley, a former u.n. ambassador, out on the campaign trail doing the same thing. i think it's striking. i really do think we can't underscore enough the fact that trump is silent yet again. i'm so glad we included the fact that when this happened, when navalny was initially poisoned

during trump's administration, trump said nothing, we'll talk about that at another time. he weighs on everything prettily liberally. the fact he is not talking about this is notable. it comes back to what congresswoman liz cheney is saying tact pro-putin wing of the republican party. the one thing i question is she says they will be held to account. who and when? i mean, this is a part of the party that is on the rise. you not just have donald trump on the campaign trail not condemning putin for what happened to navalny, you have on the hill a large contingent of people who do not want to continue to send aid to ukraine. all of this is connected. you have donald trump as the continued front-runner and the standard-bearer of the party who could be back in party in the white house. i mean, this is all critically important together. >> trump's silence, david, notable but not at all surprising. we know that donald trump does not stand up to vladimir putin. he does not say anything that could be deemed critical of putin. he hasn't done it in office, in helsinki, since leaving office

and trying to get back into power. talk to us about how the idea of trump returning, how that loomed over the gathering in munich, how those world leaders reeling from this news of navalny's death, putin on the rise, as you mentioned earlier in the show, and the idea that someone who is cozying up to putin every chance he gets might soon be back in the west wing. >> so, it sends a chill down the spines of many european leaders, obviously. they feel as never before the threat from putin and the idea that america's next president might be somebody who will seek to do a deal with putin that's advantageous to putin at europe's expense i think is just -- you know, they dread that. so, they're trying to push back. they're trying to rally their own spirits. you know, ali, i wonder if republicans really can carry putin on their backs, in effect.

i noted in comments on shows over the weekend the republican line seems to be implausibly it's trump that can be tough a on this issue. it's bide than has been weak. biden hasn't stood up to putin in ukraine. that seemed to be tim scott's line. just curious. i come from munich, where with republicans who were most enthusiastic about working with democrats to provide aid for ukraine were gathered. what's your sense of republican sentiment overall? i came away from munich thinking maybe a version of this supplemental aid package will pass. what do you think? >> i mean, a version of it may still pass. i do think that the senate has always been the place -- and this has always been true but certainly the last few years -- it's always been the place where there's the possibility of bipartisan action. it's the house and the house republicans, the way we are watching these hard-liners. it's not always the same people.

it's not like we're looking to the same lineup of house republicans every single twist of this policy conversation who are saying, okay, we need border security, we need more cuts on domestic funding. i do think that the folks you were with in munich are probably the ones we would look to for bipartisan action, and that pressure will be there. i thought it was striking, though, and maybe this is nothing, and maybe i'm looking too much into it, but the fact that lindsey graham chose to go to the border instead of going to munich, someone who for many years prided himself on being a pro small-d democracy hawk on the world stage being so vehemently anti-russia and anti-putin, toeing that line for so long, then said i'm going to the border instead of munich, i thought that was pretty striking. and i don't know what that says about the supplemental, but i do think the fact that donald trump is now putting people like tim scott, who very much wants to be a vp, in the position of having to defend this really murky position on russia, that is

really going to be problematic for the republican party post trump. >> we'll talk more about the death of alexei navalny in our next hour when the ranking member of the house foreign affairs committee joins our conversation. congressman gregory meeks is our guest straight ahead on "morning joe." honestly, i was scared when i was told age related macular degeneration could jeopardize my vision. great. one more thing to worry about. it was all too hard to deal with in the beginning, but making a plan with my doctor to add precision was easy. preservision areds2 contains the exact nei recommended,

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all-time scoring record in last night's all-star game, becoming the first team to surpass, wait for it, 200 points on the way to a 211-186 win over the western conference. you can see the effort level there, guys jogging, no one playing defense. so, after months of stressing the importance of delivering a competitive product, the high-scoring affair left commissioner adam silver appearing rather unenthused while presenting the all-star game trophy. >> the city of indianapolis, thank you for the fantastic hospitality. to herb simon. he's owned this team for 41 years, the longest-standing owner in nba history. thank you very much to your son, steve, as well. and to the eastern conference all-stars, you scored the most

points. well, congratulations. >> the biggest nba fans i know think the all-star game is a disaster and should be blown up. seems like the commissioner should be among them now. what is the point. to college hoops, katy -- >> i'm glad ali is here. maybe she can help. i'm useless here. >> so, ohio state stunned number two purdue last night, beating the boilermakers 73-69 with the buckeyes' new head coach. ohio state lost 9 of its last 11 games and fired its longtime head coach and then rallied with an upset to be the top seed for next month's ncaa tournament.

cue the fans storming the court. st. john's coughed up a 19-point lead last night in its eighth defeat in its past ten games. this loss to seton hall sinks the red storm to 14-12 overall, now sliding to ninth place in the big east, with just five games left in the regular season. hall-of-fame coach rick pitino in his first year at st. john's did not hold back his disappointment after the game. >> we just lacked toughness. we just don't move our feet on defense. we are so nonathletic that we can't guard anybody without fouling. and really it's not about losing because even winning, when we watch the film, i see a lot of athletic plays, i see people that don't handle the ball. they're just interested in taking quick shots. so, it's been a disappointing year. i think i've enjoyed -- even the celtics when we lost, i enjoyed every minute of being the boston celtics coach.

didn't like the fact that we lost, but this has been the most enjoyable experience i've had -- the most unenjoyable experience i've had since coaching. i'm really disappointed in my team. "the daily advertiser" is reporting on sex ed restrictions for minors. eight different states enacted laws banning them, targeting lgbtq discussions. it marks an 800% spike in restrictive legislation compared to the previous year. many point to florida as the trend setter after the state banned classroom discussion of sexual orientation and gender identity at all grade levels. "the times" union is looking at the shrinking number of dairy farms across new york state and what it could mean for the industry across the america. according to new data from the usda, half of new york's dairy farms from a decade ago no longer exist, whether from

rising production costs, national market changes, or both. it highlights a trend in the darpy industry to stay afloat amid labor and production costs, since 2017. drink your milk, everybody. "the houston chronicle" is covering a judge's decision on a new texas law that would give state authorities power to arrest migrants. governor greg abbott and republican lawmakers call the record number of border crossings an invision. judge david ezra pushed back on the argument last week, saying he's not seen evidence of any type of military invasion at the state. the law is set to take effect on march the 5th and would make it a crime to enter texas from mexico without permission, allowing law enforcement officers to arrest anyone who they suspect entered the state illegally. watch that border. and in tennessee, the chattanooga free press is spot lighting the record number of organ donations across the u.s., marking an 8.7% increase in

transplants performed last year. despite the increase, the waiting list for transplant recipients, well, that remains long. some people may reach the top but still have to wait for a compatible donor. the health resources and services administration continues to encourage people to sign up for the organ donor registry. coming up, david ignatius lays out the three crises that give president biden a chance to prove his doubters wrong.

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ends presidents day. only at sleep number. this looks like an actual farm. it looks cute on the app. [farm animal sounds] ♪♪ meanwhile, at a vrbo... when other vacation rentals aren't what they're cracked up to be, try one where you know what you'll get. you want to see who we are as americans? i'm peter dixon and in kenya... aren't what they're cracked up to be, we built a hospital that provides maternal care. as a marine... we fought against the taliban and their crimes against women. and in hillary clinton's state department... we took on gender-based violence in the congo. now extremists are banning abortion and contraception right here at home. so, i'm running for congress to help stop them. for your family... and mine. i approved this message

because this is who we are. democrats agree. conservative republican steve garvey is the wrong choice for the senate. ...our republican opponent here on this stage has voted for donald trump twice. mr. garvey, you voted for him twice... as your own man, what is your decision? garvey is wrong for california. but garvey's surging in the polls. fox news says garvey would be a boost to republican control of the senate. stop garvey. adam schiff for senate. i'm adam schiff, and i approve this message. david, you've been busy, because before you went to munich to report on that, your recent article, "three crises that give bide an chance to prove his doubters wrong." so, what are they? >> so, everyone is pondering

this question, is joe biden too old to run for president again, has he got the stuff to be a strong leader. he has three crises ahead that can show the country that he is strong and tough many dealing with issues. the three obviously are the gaza war. this has come down to a showdown between him and israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu, who wants to keep fighting, wants the war to continue. it's up to biden to challenge him, to say no. the interest of the united states, the interest of israel require a different course moving through that. second, obviously, the war in ukraine. it's on the ground. biden must find a way to get that aid package to ukraine. otherwise, they're in terrible trouble. they're on the verge of giving up more ground. can he do it? can he find the resources as

leader? can he fight? final thing, let's be honest, the democrats have not responded to that issue adequately in biden's three years. what are the things we can do without congress that can show the country we're acting? we'll see. it's on his racket. can he hit the ball? >> let's circle back to navalny in particular. one of the more powerful things any of us have seen in a while is his widow spoke at munich

moments after learning her husband had died. tell us about that. also the leading american representative there was the vice president kamala harris. >> that was surely the most moving part of this conference. the news broke on all of us. it broke in my ear on the show. vice president harris got up and she gave a statement at the outset of her speech. she didn't have the details. she said we'll get back to you with more details as they become available. it wasn't the strongest speech, but in general this was a pretty good performance by her. then this electrifying moment

where the widow of the man who's just died, her face still puffy from tears for her husband, addressing this audience and saying should i go back and be with my children in this moment while i heard the news, or should i be with you here now? en and saying i know what my husband would have done. he would have been here. that was electrifying for the audience. it shaped the whole three days of the conference. >> david ignatius, thank you so much for joining us this morning. coming up, water, steaks,

training cards and now sneakers. we'll break down trump's sales pitch now that he owes new york state a half billion dollars. that's coming up. that's coming p i told myself i was ok with my moderate to severe rheumatoid arthritis symptoms. with my psoriatic arthritis symptoms. but just ok isn't ok. and i was done settling. if you still have symptoms after a tnf blocker like humira or enbrel, rinvoq is different and may help. rinvoq is a once-daily pill that can rapidly relieve joint pain, stiffness, and swelling in ra and psa. relieve fatigue for some... and stop joint damage. and in psa, can leave skin clear or almost clear.

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welcome back. a minnesota community is grieving this morning after three first responders were killed in a suburb of minneapolis. >> reporter: in minnesota, grief and heartache after a 911 call for a family in danger led to the deaths of three first responders who came to the rescue. >> when officers got to the

scene, the individual was barricaded. the subject opened fire on first responders. >> reporter: connor noonan heard shots. >> boom, boom, boom, and then rapid fire like an automatic weapon, pop pop pop pop. >> reporter: it happened outside minneapolis in burnsville. police say they were negotiating with the shooter when he started shooting. >> we later learned there were seven young children in the home from ages 2 to 15. >> reporter: outside the home, a swat vehicle riddled with bullet holes. among the victims police officer paul elmstrand, matthew ruge and

adam finseth. >> to those who wear the badge or are considering this and saying i don't know if i can do that, what do you say to this? >> when it comes to public service and public safety, it in the hearts and souls of the people who do it. >> reporter: fellow officers also remembering the fallen. >> we're hurting. >> we will be following that story. we are now rolling into the fourth hour of "morning joe." it is 6 a.m. on the west coast, 9 a.m. here in the west. nbc news capitol hill correspondent ali vitali is still with us. we begin with former president trump not holding back following a new york state ruling that found him liable for a slew of

business-related charges that will cost him roughly $350 million plus interest. garrett haake has the latest. >> reporter: technically the republican primary is far from over, but you wouldn't know it from watching trump's campaign. he spent the weekend focused partly on talking up the general election but also heavily talking about that new york court case. >> the freight train is coming in november. >> reporter: this morning, donald trump's campaign knocked off track by a new york judge, ordering the billionaire republican presidential frontrunner on friday to pay more than $355 million in fines, plus interest. >> it's a sham case. there were no victims, no defaults, no damages, no complaints, no nothing. >> reporter: the former president vowing to appeal the civil fraud trial what found him liable for fraud, conspiracy and

issuing false financial statements. the judge also banning trump from operating business in new york for three years. his last remaining primary opponent nikki haley pointing voters to the legal minefield mr. trump faces. >> he, by his own words, said he's going to be spending more time in court than on the campaign trail. that's a problem. republicans will not win if donald trump is the nominee. >> reporter: haley also attacking trump after the death of russian opposition leader alexei navalny, calling for trump to condemn putin. >> donald trump is going to side with a thug who kills his political opponents. >> reporter: trump has yet to respond to navalny's death.

polls show the former president leading in haley's home state of south carolina. mr. trump even spending part of his day saturday launching a shoe line at a philadelphia sneaker convention. >> i think it's going to be a big success. >> reporter: even as she hammers donald trump on his legal ballots, nikki haley said in a forum that she would pardon the former president should he be convicted of a crime and she be the next president. she said it would be good for the country to not have an 80-year-old former president sitting in just in the last few moments, donald trump has posted his first remarks on the death of alexei navalny.

"the sudden death of alexei navalny has made me more and more aware of what is happening in our country. it is a slow, steady progression with crooked prosecutors and judges leading us down a path to destruction. open borderborders, rigged elec are grossly destroying america. we are a nation in decline, a failing nation. maga 2024." donald trump has once again made everything about himself. these are his complaints about the campaign, complaints about the legal system, hitting the campaign issues he wants to talk about. in that message, there are no condolences offered to navalny or his family and certainly no criticism of vladimir putin. >> there's one sentence about navalny with no context. then he moves back to the justice system.

on the weekend he seemed to be saying his assets were greater. so presumably he can pay that fine in new york of $350 million. there's no criticism of vladimir putin. >> on those legal issues facing trump, let's bring in anthony coley. he was the top spokesperson at the justice department under merrick garland. let's pick up with your quick reaction to what we saw on friday, that massive judgment handed down against the trump organization of nearly half a billion dollars and prohibiting him from running his business for three years. >> this case strikes trump in his wallet, where it really hurts. it also strikes at the heart of

who he purports himself to be, this uber successful businessman and tycoon. that's his brand. what this judge found is all of that is built on a foundation of lies. i'm going to be honest with you. i think donald trump really should be breathing a sigh of relief, because he is still able to operate this business or he will be after three years. quite frankly, the judge could have ordered him to completely dissolve the organization. i'm sure he doesn't see it that way. >> can he get out of paying that money? >> i think he's going to have to pay it. my whole thing about just last week and where we are now, it really feels like this is a new season of accountability. i know at some point we'll talk about what's going to potentially happen in the

supreme court this week. when you think about the e. jean carroll verdict, $88 million. last week a judge finally set a trial date for the first criminal trial of a president. that's going to be five weeks from today. >> we should note trump has not been shy fundraising. it gets very complicated. donald trump likely has to pay this himself or ask his supporters. there's been a go fund me already. >> maybe he can take the profits from his sneaker line. >> let's turn to a couple of the other matters facing donald trump, starting with georgia. it's been a pretty remarkable of courtroom hearings broadcast live we saw last week.

did d.a. willis do enough to push away these accusations? >> number one, she did an amazing job at pushing back at this whole notion that there was a financial benefit from this relationship. also she needed to reassert control over the narrative, and she did that. she needed to reconnect with people in a way that made sense that rebutted all of these lies that defendants had been using against her over the course of the last several weeks. now, that does not excuse her relationship with nathan wade. i haven't come across any attorney that i respect who says that she should have engaged in this relationship.

but that has nothing to do with the charges against donald trump and his efforts to overturn the election. this is what this whole thing is about. this is a tight case in georgia. we have a situation here where four people have already pleaded guilty, and the witnesses in this case are the conservative republican governor. we've got the conservative secretary of state. these are people who supported donald trump, who voted for him, who wanted him to win. they are going to testify in open court with a camera as to the extensive efforts that donald trump took to steal the election even after multiple hand recounts in the state reaffirmed the election. >> isn't that the story of georgia? i think all of us looked at georgia and fulton county specifically saying the guy is on tape saying exactly how many

votes he needs. i was sitting outside the fulton county courthouse waiting for folks to turn themselves in. isn't it that the perception of impropriety is enough to taint this entire case? it's found that fani willis has done nothing illegal or untoward technically. but what about in actually? >> it's so important to see and hear from fani willis over the last several days. this is between her and the voters of fulton county. in 2020, she made a commitment on the campaign trail that she would not date members of her staff. she did that in the context of a heated campaign where the incumbent district attorney was

facing sexual harassment allegations at the time. by engaging in this relationship, she did not meet the high standards she set for herself or the commitment she made to voters. but to be clear, it still has nothing to do with trump's efforts to overturn the georgia election. >> thank you. we appreciate your insight this coming up, we'll go over the death of putin critic alexei navalny. plus, congress is on winter break as another government shutdown looms and aid to ukraine hangs in the balance. ane power e*trade's easy-to-use tools, like dynamic charting and risk-reward analysis,

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for 75 years, nato has been the most important military alliance in the world. it's been the cornerstone of america's security. it's how we won the cold war and defeated the soviet union. the only time nato has invoked the sacred commitment of article v was to stand with america since 9/11. trump wants to walk away from nato. he's even given putin and russia the green light to attack america's allies. >> i would encourage them to do whatever the hell they want. >> no president has ever said anything like it. it's shameful, it's weak, it's dangerous, it's un-american. joe biden understands the commitment we have made to nato is good for america and the world, and he will honor it, because that's what a strong american president does.

>> president biden's reelection campaign out with that new political advertisement criticizing donald trump for his embrace of russian president vladimir putin. biden himself has called trump's words un-american. meanwhile, the death of alexi navalny has been met with an outpouring of grief across the world, including inside russia, where hundreds of people have been detained at events honoring the now-deceased opposition leader. the white house is squarely blaming putin for navalny's death and weighing its next steps. richard engel is in ukraine with the latest. >> reporter: this morning, tensions between the united states and russia are high after the death of alexei navalny. russian president vladimir putin has been accused of assassinating navalny, his

biggest critic. >> putin is responsible for the circumstances. >> reporter: navalny's spokesperson said he was murdered by putin, but offered no proof. in russia, citizens have been laying flowers and tributes. the 47-year-old navalny, who barely survived poisoning in 2020 collapsed and died suddenly last week at a penal colony in siberia, one day after looking healthy during a court appearance. russian officials say they have yet to determine the cause of death. as the biden administration condemned the death of yet another russian activist to die under mysterious circumstances, the president has been

reassuring president zelenskyy that he still has his support. russia has made its first significant advance in ukraine in nearly a year. ukrainian troops tried to hold the city, but outmanned and outgunned, they chose a strategic retreat instead while it awaits supplies from america, blocked by congress. president biden saying the united states won't abandon the country in its time of need. >> we are tired, we are exhausted. we're going to have to keep fighting, until my last breath or until the victory. >> which one do you think it's going to be? >> the victory. >> boy, do they need those weapons as fast as they can get

them. new this morning we're hearing from alexei navalny's widow yulia, calling on supporters to stand beside her in sharing her rage, anger and hatred of those who have dared to kill our future. she added, in killing alexei, putin killed half of me, but i have another half left and it is telling me i have no right to give up. the message comes as navalny's mother tried unsuccessfully to retrieve her son's body from the prison where he died. joining me is congressman gregory meeks of new york. president biden pins the death of alexei navalny firmly on

vladimir putin. what can america do now to help the cause of alexei navalny? what's the most important thing? what are the actions america could take? >> the first action we can take is the united states house of representatives can pass the supplemental to help ukraine defeat russia. that is the first thing that we can do. that is urgent and needed right now. i would think that the american people should rally and urge speaker johnson as soon as we get back the next week to put the bill on the floor, the senate bill that passed in a bipartisan way and vote it out because it will show the unity of the united states and the rest of the democratic world against the actions of vladimir putin and what he has done to mr. navalny. >> you were in munich and had the opportunity to meet with

ukrainian president zelenskyy. tell us about his message to the american people but more narrowly to the american congress, who need to step up and send those weapons. it seems like russia has the momentum in that war. >> there's no question that he was thankful to the biden administration and to members of congress for what we have done. he talked about and was thanking us for that. but he indicated the victories that they have accomplished which people have not talked about. vladimir putin thought he was able to wipe out ukraine and take it over in two weeks. we're now into two years. we were moving in the right direction and continue to move in the right direction, but all we have to do is give ukraine the weapons that it needs to win. so he's shown even with the depletion they're having now, they're being outgunned because they don't have the ammunition,

but still they're taking out russian tanks and planes. if we would pass this supplemental and give them what they need so they can continue to take this fight to vladimir putin and the russians, they will win. they're outmanned, but they are winning almost 12-1. every death is hard, but for every one ukrainian soldier lost, 12 to 15 russian soldiers are lost. some of the long-range missiles he needs to go to attack in crimea where the weapons are being stored, et cetera, that are being utilityized to reach into ukraine, if he had that, that would help them in a mighty big way. >> i wonder if i can ask you for sort of a mood check from

munich. we often cover the chaos of congress here. what were some of your conversations on the sidelines in munich? how are other people in the global community viewing the chaos of congress right now? >> they're very concerned about american leadership. they are asking for the first time, for example, they want to know what other procedures could take place to help get the funding through. they're very concerned about donald trump returning to the white house and asking what are our plans and how do we think the election is going to go. there was concern about continued american leadership. the world is looking directly at us to see whether or not we stand and continue to lead or fall to the side. their concern is that not only when you talk about what's taken

place directly in europe but they know that china is looking, north korea is looking, iran is looking. these outside non-democratic led by dictator countries are looking to see what the democratic countries led by the united states, whether or not we will stand together. that was the overriding question on and off the record coming to us, what will the united states do and will we continue to lead the democratic countries of the world. >> of course, the house is out for a couple weeks now as time is of the essence for ukraine. also, there's another deadline approaching, that of a government shutdown scheduled for early march if a deal can't get reached by then. what is your level of concern about the government shutting down? can speaker johnson get a deal

and still keep his job? >> look, i know that leader jeffreys has been talking and been willing to work together to try to figure out how we can do something collectively. we need the republicans to stand up. talking about this supplemental for example, most of the individuals that were there said they would vote for it, but you have to get the bill on the floor and get members to vote for it. same thing with making sure that we don't default on our debt and pass a budget. get a bill that we can work on together and put it on the floor and let us vote on it. what i anticipate happening right now because it has not been what -- in regards to our

budget to kick it down the road, that may very well take place because the timing is so short because the house is not being ran properly, plain and simple. what i think americans are being us to do is to work together, democrats and republicans, get together and talk. we are ready on the democratic side. we've exhibited time and time again, whether you're talking about dealing with the border issues, the republicans said they wanted to talk about that. we said we'd do that. we put something together. we moved. there's supposed to be some compromise taking place. the extreme maga republicans continue to just play games, political games. i think that the united states, the people of the united states and people around the world are watching and know those games must stop. >> whether it's ukraine funding

or shutting down the government, the world is watching capitol hill. thank you for joining us. >> thank you. ahead on "morning joe," we'll go through new reporting on the abortion ban that donald trump is said to be discussing with advisors and allies, and we'll also take a look at how the overturning of roe is impacting women's health care in rural communities around the country. s health care in rural communities around the country. switch to shopify and sell smarter at every stage of your business. take full control of your brand with your own custom store. scale faster with tools that let you manage every sale from every channel. and sell more with the best converting checkout

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emilie ikeda has the details. >> reporter: this morning, students at the university of colorado colorado springs are waking up on edge after police say two people were gunned down inside a campus dorm room early friday morning, sending the school into an hours-long lockdown. police identifying the victims as colorado residents 26-year-old celie ray montgomery and samuel knop. there were reports of an active shooter on campus. >> these deaths are being investigated as a homicide, and this continues to be a very active investigation in its very early stages.

>> reporter: police have ruled out a murder/suicide, but describe it as an isolated incident to parties who were known to one another and not a random attack. >> we don't really know if they're still out there or on campus, if they're a student. it's kind of terrifying. >> reporter: knopp was a senior at the university studying music, seen here in a video from a recital last year. he was described as an extremely talented musician. with no information about a suspect or motive, students are anxious. >> this is a massive shot for all of us. >> i still feel really on edge. i feel like a lot of people don't know how they're supposed to be reacting right now.

>> truly heartbreaking. >> awful for those families. former president trump is reportedly telling advisors and allies that he likes the idea of a 16-week abortion ban with exceptions for rape, incest or to save the life of the mother. trump is waiting to discuss his views in public until the primary is over because he doesn't want to risk losing the support of conservatives. meanwhile, democrats and the white house are quickly slamming trump's reported comments. president biden writes in part, quote, trump is running scared. he's afraid the women of america are going to hold him responsible for taking away their rights and endangering their rights at the ballot box in november. the choice is simple. kamala and i will restore roe v wade and make it once again the

law of the land. trump will ban abortion nationwide. there's a new opinion piece in which you write in part, quote, abortion access has been so motivating for voters that activists are advancing state abortion referendums in nine states, including montana, florida, arizona. it's critical to retaining the democratic senate majority and to regaining the house. support for abortion access should be an easy layup for the president with real potential to swing even a close election. i know people around president trump think this idea of a 16-week nationwide ban could position him as moderate on

abortion even though he had roe v wade overturned. how worries are people in the white house that trump's positioning on this could mitigate some of the energy we've seen around the abortion issue on the democratic side? >> i think the campaign is a little delusional. there's no evidence from any polling that somehow a 16-week ban is a uniting idea for voters on both sides of the aisle. to the contrary, i think what we've seen since the dobbs decision is that a plurality of voters, independent voters, swing voters, democratic voters and especially young voters do not want government interference and extending abortion bans. we've seen in states that have enacted bans horrific health care consequences for women.

it's not just trumps comments about this 16-week supposed compromise. friday in alabama, the alabama supreme court ruled that embryos, non-viable embryos should be considered children. this is exactly the kind of legal disaster that many abortion activists have been warning about since the dobbs decision. i really think that biden needs to lean in on this issue in a much more significant way. >> meanwhile, in april the supreme court is scheduled to hear a case on whether a federal law can require doctors in idaho, a state with a near total abortion ban, to perform emergency abortions when the health of the mother is at risk. until then, the abortion ban in idaho remains in full effect.

the ruling in the state has led to growing confusion on doctors on whether they can provide care without risking criminal liability. tell us more about that abortion ban in idaho and what it's doing to women's health care in the state. >> idaho is high on the list of maternal health deserts in the country. since roe was overturned, the recruitment has taken a hit. jennifer was expecting her second child when an ultrasound revealed complications. her doctor said her baby had turner syndrome, a rare condition that can often end in miscarriage. >> they said it could take days or weeks to miscarry. in the meantime, your blood pressure could continue to deteriorate and get higher and

higher. we're all very concerned about the risk. >> jennifer and her family decided not to take that risk. they traveled 400 miles from their home state of idaho, a state with a near total abortion ban, to oregon to terminate her pregnancy. she's in the midst of a lawsuit with three other women against the state of idaho, arguing they were denied necessary and potentially life-saving obstetric care. dr. lauren coleson says restrictions on abortion care are taking a toll on those who

fear repercussions of the law. >> we can't do anything about it until they are literally dying. >> that worry among doctors is causing many to flee the state. a new report estimated that since august of 2022, idaho has lost more than 20% of its obstetricians who handle high risk pregnancies going down by less than 55%. there are less than five left in the state practicing full-time. a medical student in idaho is having difficulty choosing whether to take a residency program in the state, saying the abortion laws are discouraging her from staying. >> the outlook on health care for that population is challenging. >> there's been a big push to

continue to train family physicians who are being more inclined to leave the state and these rural communities, leaving the state without primary care. >> dr. frank johnson, chief medical officer for st. luke's, the largest medical group in idaho, told me mothers have to travel hours to find doctors. one mother suffered blood loss, but couldn't get care. >> things went awry and that baby was lost, unfortunately. whether it could have been saved with earlier care, i don't know, but certainly the complications to the mom were greater because of what she had to go through. >> jennifer atkins shared that access to maternal care is something she's now worried

about now that she's pregnant again. jennifer also mentioned that this pregnancy has already been different from her last one. she's had to travel to a number of hospitals across the state just to find care. maternal mortality is experiencing an upward trend in the state. in the last two years, two hospitals have closed their doors. nbc news obtained a letter sent to employees stating that another hospital is set to close this april. >> it's not just idaho. we're hearing the same stories from florida, texas and ohio as well. thank you. it's across the country. doctors are so confused. they don't know what they can do. i really feel for the doctors.

they don't know what they can do and can't do. >> it's confusing when you look at this patchwork of rules across the country. i've heard so many stories from women across the country where doctors effectively have to tell them you've got to get sicker in order for me to help you. it feels so counter intuitive. it's such a visceral and palpable political issue because women are becoming more comfortable sharing their stories. i wonder if you look down the pipeline, what does it tell you that the trump campaign is trying to wait to announce their abortion policy until after the primary. does that say more about the general election audience or the republican primary audience? this issue has been so thorny for every republican i talk to. in large part, they're out of step with where most of the country is. >> it's just an absolute political loser. we saw this in the new york

congressional race. what tom suozzi said is that the abortion issue and in places like kentucky where andy beshear, a democrat wins largely on abortion issues. the point is this is a political loser for republicans. there is no question donald trump owns this. he is responsible for the end of roe. this idea that a 16-week compromise is going to achieve anything is out of touch. it doesn't matter how many weeks it is. if there is a woman who is facing a complication and doctors are unable to give her care or there's some crazy set of bureaucracy that she has to work through in order to prove that she merits those exceptions

including for rape or a life-and-death situation, that is catastrophic for women. i think that's going to be prosecuted over and over again in this election. if it's not, shame on president biden, because this is the winning issue for democrats. there's been lots of reporting that privately the president said he's not super comfortable talking about this stuff. >> thank you so much. we'll have much more of this discussion with this campaign as it heats up. coming up on "morning joe," it's the docu-series that has everyone in the sports world talking. what happened to the new england patriots, and can the team make a comeback without tom brady and

bill belichick? the producer will join us with a look at the film that chronicles the dramatic rise and current fall of one of the nfl's most decorated franchises. "morning joe" will be right back with that. d franchises "morning joe" will be right back with that. tentional movements ir face, hands, and feet called tardive dyskinesia, or td. so her doctor prescribed austedo xr— a once-daily td treatment for adults. ♪ as you go with austedo ♪ austedo xr significantly reduced kate's td movements. some people saw a response as early as 2 weeks. with austedo xr, kate can stay on her mental health meds— (kate) oh, hi buddy! (avo) austedo xr can cause depression, suicidal thoughts, or actions in patients with huntington's disease. pay close attention to and call your doctor if you become depressed, have sudden changes in mood, or have suicidal thoughts. don't take if you have liver problems, are taking reserpine, tetrabenazine, or valbenazine. austedo xr may cause irregular or fast heartbeat, or abnormal movements. seek help for fever, stiff muscles, problems thinking, or sweating. common side effects include inflammation of the nose

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in pro football, nobody is entitled to anything. you have to go out there and earn it. >> i was pretty intent on proving myself. >> we were going to determine the future of football in new england. >> the patriots are super bowl champions! >> the first dynasty of the century. >> this game is like a narcotic. you're chasing that forever. >> breaking news right now. >> spygate. >> deflategate. >> aaron couldn't separate himself from that dark side. >> that team won enough to become the villain. >> we worked for bill, but we played for tom. >> bill tore brady's head completely off.

>> there are things that were done that can't be undone. >> i was just trying to hold it together the best i could. >> this team will be scrutinized, celebrated for as long as the game of football is played. >> that was part of the trailer from the new apple tv plus docu-series titled "the dynasty, new england patriots." it followed robert kraft, tom brady and bill belichick through their historic 20-year run with never-before-seen footage from inside the patriots' locker room. joining us to talk about it, emmy award-winning director and executive producer of the series, matthew ham check and oscar, grammy and golden globe winning executive director brian grazer. great to have you both here. i will be up front with this. i'm a new england patriots fan. tell us about the challenge of

what drew you to telling the story. the patriots had this underdog story that everyone loved to in the end being america's sports villain. >> well, first of all, i was always rather fascinated with this team. i new bob kraft. i knew how hard it was for him to eventually get the team quite a long time ag ago. ron howard and i love underdog stories. we've had great success making underdog stories get from tragedy to triumph, including, say, the movie "eight mile" or "friday night lights," the movie or television show. both of them have these beautiful stories. "beautiful mind," "apollo 13." this particular story, because i was able to read the book, was a story i had never seen before or heard before in terms of they

rise to great success after brady who is a very high draft pick and it's just a story that is -- again, it's never been seen before. they go to great success and there's a tragedy of deflategate, or the spy cheating scandal, or there was a death. so many different things that bring them up and down. it was a story i was very interested in. it was a value system that not only embodied the team but many of the prove vees that i've produced. so i was excited by it. when bob kraft learned we were tremendously interested in it, i had a conversation with bob, and he said, look, if you're personally involved, i will go with you guys. we were thrilled and i was very excited to work on this.

>> let's take a look at a scene where matthew interviews longtime patriots executive ernie adams who gives an eye-opening answer about the team's sign-stealing scandal known as spygate. >> ernie adams is a genius. there's not one detail that ernie adams would not know about. >> just so you know, on this whole video thing that, in 2007, i'm not going to reopen it. >> we have to talk about -- >> just so you know, i'm not -- could i tell you stories? yes. am i going to? no. it's going to the grave with me a little bit. >> let's just talk about it and we'll see where we go. >> there were three people from the league and i was there. they were on a fact-finding mission. they were trying to determine what exactly had happened.

the biggest thing everybody has to understand is that there have been plenty of teams in the history of the national football league who have tried to take another team's signals. >> matthew, i'm going to refrain from editorializing how the nfl carried out this witch hunt against the new england patriots. >> witch hunt. >> that's what i said. i'm curious of your impressions of the interview with ernie adams. bill belichick famously tight-lipped. tell us what it was like to get him to open up for this? >> it's interesting. i really didn't grow up a new england patriots fan. i knew we had to cover things like spygate, like deflategate, like aaron hernandez. the thing that we had that nobody else had really gotten before was access to the 70-plus players, coaches, league officials, fans, rivals. in addition to that, we had

35,000 hours of never-before-seen archive. i think we could fill two mack trucks with the tapes that we had to digitize and go through and find the nuggets. it's one thing to hear about people talking about bill belichick addressing the team right after the spooi spygate scandal. it's entirely different to watch him do it on footage. we had all this access and we were able to tell an unvarnished version of the new england patriots story. >> we're certainly looking forward to watching it. the third and fourth episodes of "the dynasty, new england patriots" will be available this friday on apple tv plus. matthew ham check and executive producer brian grazer, thank you both so very much. that does it for us this morning. yasmin vossoughian will pick up the coverage after a quick final break. "morning joe" will catch you again tomorrow. brk. "morning joe" will catch you again tomorrow

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