center of american art. >> al roker and the power of black art, history, and joy. that will take us off the air tonight. and on that note, i wish you a good evening. i'm symone sanders-townsend, in for stephanie ruhle. she will be back tomorrow night. and you can catch me on saturday and sunday mornings on my new show the weekend. from all our colleagues from across the networks of nbc news, thank you so much for staying up late. have a good night. up late. have a good night. ♪ ♪ ♪ donald trump is a need of an intervention. that is what speaker emerita nancy pelosi said the last time i spoke with her on this show, just over a month ago. well, she's back with me tonight, and i know she's not gonna hold back. she never does. we're gonna talk about everything that's happened

since then. and a lot has happened since then. including two civil penalties against donald trump, totaling over four and a half billion dollars with interest. -- almost $90 million. 01 of those cases with her client, e. jean carroll, also joins me tonight. and after trump referenced carolina speech -- how far can he go before they bring him back to court again? and are they watching all this? i do want to start tonight back in 2021. with the documentary that was released by alexei navalny in russia that made vladimir putin, frankly, look pretty bad. this film showed aerial footage captured by a drone of a 1. 3 billion dollar palace that navalny alleges was built for putin. he dubbed it putin's palace. fit for a diabolical king, equipped with a casino, billiard room, and a room just for electric toy cars. it's very weird. the documentary also went

further and outlining the filthy extravagance of putin's lifestyle, including multiple vineyards he owned, and some of his quirky, let's call them, expensive tastes. like this little detail that i just love, and i bet you will to. a receipt for a toilet paper holder purchased for more than 1000 heroes. i mean, i can't even imagine what that toilet paper holder would look like. i'm not gonna tsai. but the entire purpose of this film was to expose putin for what he is. what we all know he is. a fraud. a cheat. a bastion of corruption. sound familiar? but what was particularly remarkable about the release of the film, and so important to remember right now, was that it was done when navalny was already back in jail. he'd already gone back to russia. he did so knowing it could cost him his life. it could cost him his continued advocacy for freedom, for democracy. his fight against corruption. and really, his ongoing effort to expose putin for who he really is. a dictator with no clothes.

in response, putin did everything he could to silence him. for years. he put him in jail, he put him in jail like and when he returned, in a penal colony than, in an isolated, freezing cold, poorly ventilated solid block over and over again. and just days ago, alexei navalny, as we all know, was found dead. so, as i'm walking you through all of this, you might be wondering -- what does any of this have to do with us? and what is happening right now in the united states that were also concerned about? well, a lot. because as we speak, donald trump is being exposed in much the same way that alexei navalny exposed vladimir putin. and that's because we do follow the rule of law in this country. at least for now. on friday, a judge in new york city ordered trump to pay 200 and -- 400 and $50 million. that's including interest, for what it's worth. but for being, essentially, a decades-long total fraudster. he didn't have a toilet paper or hold are worth 1000 euros that we're currently tracking, though it's entirely possible. but for decades, he's scammed

in cheated and his own way. and he still scamming. most recently, hawking a new line of gold sneakers amid his mounting legal bills and civil judgments. and just like putin, the marks post trump's, the more vindictive he becomes in return. the more embarrassed he as, the more vengeful he gets. remember. this is the guy who promises to lock up his political opponents. we've been says he could have those political opponents executed. and he would be immune from prosecution. and who threats nuance to use the military against people who protest against him. another, it's very tools that putin is using and russia right now. just listen to how former republics congressman -- liz cheney described this takes over the weekend. >> when you think about donald trump, for example, pledging retribution, what vladimir putin did to navalny miss what retribution looks like in a country where the leader is not subject to the rule of law.

i believe the issue this election cycle is making sure the putin wing of the republican party does not take over the west wing of the white house. >> so, the thing is we don't actually have to wonder what trump's america and the second term would look like. it's not that far off. we're watching a preview of it right now, in russia. trump has a model of what to do if you're an embarrassed, desperate, aspiring dictator. he sees putin's playbook. he's reading it. and he has every intention of following it if he's given a chance. joining me now is house speaker emerita nancy pelosi. i know you just returned from munich and it was a very busy trip, which i'm excited to talk to you about. i just wanted to start, speaker pelosi, with alexei navalny. i think we've all spent the last couple days just thinking about him and the role he played, and i was very struck by the fact that it took trump three days to finally make any comment about his death, even though many people dead. but when he did, he compared

navalny's death to his own legal problems, and didn't anyway condemn vladimir putin. which doesn't seem hard for most people to do. what did you think when you read that? >> well, first, let me wish everyone a happy presidents'day. i have these cherries here in this pin, reminding us that george washington said, i cannot tell you why i chopped down the cherry tree. when -- former president who cannot tell the truth. the navalny assassination, as it was, such a tragic thing. i was in munich when the news came out. i heard his widow speak to the gathered assemblage there to great reception. she could not, at first, face the fact that he might be dad, and thought maybe putin might be, as usual, lying. but the fact is then, the next day, they said we have

confirmed that he has been assassinated by vladimir putin, putting it right at his doorstep. so then, his -- united states, donald trump. and you wonder, what does putin have on donald trump that he always has to be beholden to him? his body, his body in vileness. and i don't know if you're going to show the american people the statement that he made, but it's beneath the dignity of a human being. it is so horrible. you think, no, somebody must have made this up. not only even donald trump could get this fire. as i said, he's in a limbo competition with himself, how far can he go? well now, he's been -- below sea level. the statement should disqualify him from running for anything, much less president of the united states. so to hear her comments -- so say. go ahead. >> i was just gonna say, i think so many people agree with you. and i summarized it.

i just summarized it so people could see it, because it was so far off, as you just said, from what should be stated. i did want to ask -- you seem to have this really touching moment with her after she gave that speech you just referenced. it was caught on video. with that you conveyed to her? >> of course i conveyed condolences and the hope that what she was correct -- that he had not died. but we all were suspicious. because, when she came, and she made her speech, she was enormously received, and she came down from the stage to thank me for some things, and of course, i extended my sadness for what had happened, but subscribing to her position at the time that he might still be alive. but he was assassinated. and, now they won't let the family have the body to bury or to examine, or anything. this is vileness. to your first point here, putin

is probably the richest person in the world. from the richest person in the world. forget all these ratings that people have -- the richest person in the world. he's also the most -- will not the most evil. stiff competition for that honor. but nonetheless, among the top three or four most evil people in the wild. what does he have on donald trump that he had to constantly be catering to putin? telling putin, go into these countries? nato countries. nato was there to stop russia, to keep russia alive. -- we will celebrate that security, success, and then we have what's his name -- i usually have him nameless. saying he doesn't support nato, encouraging russia to invade

nato countries. >> he who shall not be named. i know voldemort well. there's another guy kind of like him. we're all wondering this question, speaker. what does putin have on him? it certainly seems like something, as you said a few times, given that he refuses to criticize him, that he seems to be a fanboy of him. >> -- go ahead,. -- >> first of all, we must be sure that he does not stop one foot into the white house. not as president, not as anything. he has brought disgrace to the white house, to these presidents. i talked about george washington park. it's also presidents'week for abraham lincoln. when abraham lincoln died, it was some boarded and his coat that night, at that theater.

one country, one destiny. and he gave his life to unify our country. and now, we have someone who had the honor of serving in the white house. didn't consider it an honor. didn't consider his oath of office to protect and defend the constitution. and this week, speaking out the way he did about let navalny shou zi that he is a person without values. he looks like he's gonna be a person without dollars either. but the values are what concerns us. >> yes. the dollar -- 's >> i don't know what he has on him, but it's probably financial. either something financial, or something on the -- >> he owes a tremendous half a billion dollars because of these civil lawsuits that were argued against him. and he lost. i asked john bolton, who i'm sure you don't have a lot in common with, about whether he's concerned that a foreign leader, a dictator, and and

authoritarian country could have something, could be trying to target trump. and he said they probably already are. do you share that concern? >> i've always been concerned that the first trip he made as president of the united states out of the country was to saudi arabia. and you see now that his family is receiving investments in the billions from saudi arabia. but really, people care about what it means to them and their lives. and what also happened over the weekend is what happened in alabama. personhood in the supreme court, in vitro fertilization outlawed. i have a letter from my constituent he said, as a father, i would not be a father without in vitro fertilization. you have to fight this. you have to fight this. in mississippi, we won two times when they tried personhood. mississippi. mississippi. so make no mistake.

don't be misled by his fraudulent written up in the new york times as a legitimate -- what's happened to them? a legitimate proposal of a time limit on terminating a pregnancy. no ban on abortion. but also, let's talk about women just exercising their greater access to contraception, or to in vitro fertilization. this is a very dangerous person. when it comes to your family, and your kitchen table, this is only one example of how dangerous he is. >> it's so important that alabama case that you raised. so many women are mothers because of ivf. and so many are hoping to be mothers. and he said he wants a 16-week ban because he likes around number. so let's be horrified by that to. i have so much more i want to talk to you about, i also want to talk to you about aid to ukraine, and we can get it there. we do have to sneak in a very quick break, only 60 seconds. but we'll be right back with house speaker emerita nancy pelosi and 60 seconds. stay with us. with us.

we are back with house speaker emerita nancy pelosi. i'm so grateful she was able to stick around. and they want to dig in to just ukraine aid. because i think there is -- bipartisan support -- as you have said, people are looking for it. this just been major setback, major setback after major setback on the battlefield. i know you've had a lot of conversations while you are in munich, as did minority leader jeffries. he told punchbowl news quote this. i've heard more about a discharge petition in the last few days by foreign leaders at the highest level than in my prior 11 years in office combined, which kind of made me giggle, having lived here for a long time myself. as you know well, and as you obviously know very well, a district -- not easy, even if there's broad's bipartisan support. -- do you think th

delegation heard the questions about the process in the house. but also, the remarks -- former occupant -- the people were stunned. but it was different from before. they were concerned about him when he was president. but now, they're not agonizing, they're organizing. and we have two as well. so when it comes to the house, we have forwards. give us a vote. we're saying to the leader, the speaker, give us a vote. and we have other leverage that may be used. not to go into here. but the fact is, that's what people wanted to know in munich. this is 60 years of the munich conference. just so you know. this is a munich security

conference. many of us were drawn to it by john mccain. in a bipartisan way, for our transatlantic alliance, our support for nato, our support for the people of ukraine, for a long time now. not just since two years, but when the russians invaded crimea before. and even before that, with the threat of it. so this was an important meeting. and the russians, i believe, putin decided to assassinate navalny while we were in that meeting. while we were in that meeting. >> so you think he did it on purpose? >> it was a decision that he made then. >> you think it was timed? >> we hope that we will get this done in the house. it's a disgrace. that we haven't done it yet. people will die every day that we are not supplying the weapons with the distance, with the speed, with the strength that is needed to defeat the russians. and people there know that, if

anything were to happen in ukraine, which we must make sure it doesn't in terms of russia's winning, than other countries are next. they used to say that kathryn the great carried her borders in her suitcase. >> i love that. >> putin is trying to do the same. to stretch the borders of russia to where it was one of those days. that cannot happen. it's a fight of democracy versus autocracy. democracy is being fought in ukraine with the courage of the ukrainian people, but the fight is for all of us as well who care about democracy. >> absolutely. >> the former president of the united states does not. >> there's no question about that. before i let you go, because i know you had a long trip, a two party here. one, there are some funding bills that are expiring in early march. i know you said you're not gonna tell us, but people want to know. is there a way to get this ukraine funding fast? at those options you think

should be considered? and also, you just said that you think he was killed, navalny was killed purposely. that's what it sounded like. but i want to ask you this, aligned with the munich security conference, do you think it was purposeful? by putin? >> yes. absolutely. there's no question. and navalny's widow, graciously, made that declaration. we know that he had been performing a slow death on him. but he ended it when we were in munich. as a sign. as a sign. so the american people have to understand -- in the house of representatives, there's a putin caucus. they don't have it officially, but they espouse pro-putin ask -- if that's an ad fictive, comments. and even in the senate, one of their members, the one who is holding up three, four, 500 military confirmations, was singing the praises of putin.

so something's wrong their. and they do it at the behest of one donald trump. i use his name in that regard. >> and what about as this firing -- you can wait twice, even if you don't want to tell us, really. >> if we wet? well, we have to keep government open. >> right. but would they be a vehicle for ukraine funding? >> well, they could be. i really, to tell you the honest truth, just give us a vote. whatever that maybe. it's up to our leader to decide what approach he wants to take, and when. and i defer to hakeem jeffries on that. >> fair enough. it is always a pleasure, speaker pelosi, to talk to you about everything, including he who shall not be named, except for occasionally, when you choose to. thank you for joining us this evening. >> thank you.

happy presidents'day. >> happy presidents'day. >> washington and lincoln. >> both. all of, them are favorites. coming up, as donald trump's civil fines pile up, did he crossed his line again with his comments about e. jean carroll over the weekend? -- her attorney john golly is standing by to answer that question. she joins me next. we'll be right back. she joins me next. we'll be right back.

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right now, the clock is ticking for donald trump to pay the nearly half a billion

dollars he owes from his various civil judgments. a few weeks ago, he was ordered to pay the writer e. jean carroll $83 million as part of his second defamation suit against him. and on friday, a judge ordered him to fork over more than 450 million in damages and interest, for what it's worth, after a civil fraud trial related to his shady peasants practices. but those of you at home who don't want to break out the calculator, i'm here for you. but so far 500 and $36 million that trump owes. it doesn't even include the 5. 6 million he already had -- as part of the first defamation suit brought by carroll last year. and trump was really flirting with a third lawsuit. considering he attacked carroll again over the weekend. or in that second. now, trump has vowed to appeal every judgment against him. but here's the thing. if you can see caravans, he's gonna have to put up the cash himself, and soon. the 83 million bucks for the carroll judgment is due early next month, and the 43 million dollar -- fine and 50 million fraud verdict is coming up.

-- he's only got about $400 million on hand. we obviously have to take everything that man says with an entire shaker of salt, but assuming he's telling the truth there and not embellishing his financial records again, that would mean he does not have enough cash to cover all of what he owes. i took up my calculator again for you. leaving many to speculate he will have to start liquidating some of his properties. as new york magazine put it over the weekend, quote, the donald trump fire sale starts now. who better to talk to you than someone who won one of those judgments against trump. sean crowley -- she was one of the lawyers who supported e. jean carroll. she joins me now. i'm so glad you are able to make the time this evening, thank you for joining me. >> thank you for having me. >> it's a pleasure. pleasure talking to you. -- donald trump was given this deadline of one month to post his plant, which i know you are very familiar with in this latest case that he can appeal. i think for many of us, we're waiting around and thinking, why hasn't done it yet?

is there a delay, is it not a delay? should be read anything into the fact that he hasn't done that yet? >> it's hard to say. i think after the first trial, it didn't take that long for him to put up all 5 million of the judgment. so i suspect that he may be scrambling around trying to figure out how to get the cash to put it up. but we don't really know. he has a few weeks left to do it. and we are waiting to see what happens. >> now, his deposition, and his deposition as part of the new york city's civil fraud suit, that he said he had $400 million in cash, as i just outlined, that would of course, not be enough to cover what he owes your client as well as the state of new york. would it be lawful for others to pay the judgment on his behalf? what's possible? he's been doing that in paying his legal fees. >> yeah. it's complicated. it would be, in some respects, as long as he discloses if he's raising money, as long as he's

the runways-ing the money, and as long as he discloses what is he raising it for. you can say that he's raising it for his presidential campaign and then use it to pay for a bond or free legal fees. but it would be lawful for him to raise that, as long as people know what they're paying it for. >> it's interesting. he's been doing that to pay for his legal fees, it seems. but what about a foreign entity? and i ask this because his son- in-law, and others, have really benefited from the saudis. he of course has not been criticizing vladimir putin. i'm not asking you to speak to all of that, but -- could a foreign entity pay for his money he owes? would it be within the bounds of the law? >> right. our professed not being an expert in this area. but i think that he could raise the money. he could, to secure bond, he has to get a lot and has enough faith and his ability to pay it back they will give him the money to pay the bond.

i suspect, again, then you could potentially get a foreign entity to pay that. but it all comes down to disclosures. it all comes down to being truthful about what the money is going to, and who is paying it. >> he doesn't always care about who is paying it. well this will be an interesting thing to watch. we will see. okay, so, as part of the judgments over the past couple of weeks, those this court appointed monitor of the trump organization. do you anticipate that that is the person you will now be dealing with in terms of the payment of e. jean carroll's judgment? not who you are engaging with? >> we have not done that yet. and, you know, i think we're still trying to figure out what to do if he doesn't pay the bond in the next couple weeks. what our options are. we are looking into that, and we will take all appropriate steps that we need to ensure that this money is here, and that it caused e. jean either now, if we have to start enforcing, or after the appeal has played out. >> so, it is coming up in a

couple of weeks, as you referenced. it's early march. what are your options if he doesn't pay the bond? or if he doesn't pay the total of what he owes e. jean carroll? there seems to be his options. what can he do if he doesn't? >> we can start taking steps to actually enforce the judgment. which means going to the court and asking for an order for us to start attaching -- get the money to pay the whole amount of the judgment. >> as, and you decide he's not paying it, so we're gonna take steps to liquidate some of his assets to pay what she's owed? >> we would have to ask the court to do that. but that's what we're looking into. all the options, to make sure. because of this money has to be paid. if he's not able to secure a bond or paid to foment the quite, then we will take steps to make sure that the judgment is enforced. >> and he has real estate out there, as we all know. over the weekend -- he certainly does have a lot, but he's not responsible for the new york city skyline, i think

we can say. over the weekend, it seemed like trump kind of came off -- i'm not a lawyer. but he came awfully close to defaming your client began. let's just listen to that. and i want to talk about it on the other side. >> we haven't done anything wrong. we've done nothing wrong. this last case, we haven't done anything wrong. how about the 12 weeks ago? a woman, i'm saying, who the hell is she? who is the woman? it's so unfair what's happening in our country. our court system is a mess. >> so i'm just gonna restate for everyone, trump knows exactly who your client's. he was found liable for sexually abusing her and then defaming her by lying about. do you watch these? and could this one -- as we watch that? >> we certainly watch them. it's hard not to. every time donald trump speaks, you know, as we said at trial, many times, he has the biggest megaphone in the world. so everyone hears them, including us, including our client, e. jean carroll. and as he said, what he said

was absolutely a lie. to unanimous federal juries have -- he sexually assaulted her. and lied about it, repeatedly. everything he said about her over the last five years has been a lie, and has been -- we're watching, we're listening. we really hoped that, as i think the jury found, that $83 million would maybe be enough to convince him to keep e. jean carroll's name out of his mouth. apparently, he showed us this weekend that he really cannot control himself, and that maybe it wasn't. but we'll see what happens as this continues to play out. >> you are watching them. i'm sorry you have to watch all of these, just like the rest of us do. thank you so much for joining us this evening. really enjoyed having you on our show. coming up, most republicans realize that mail-in voting could actually help them win elections. go figure. but this one massive problem. and later, neo-nazis felt emboldened enough to -- the question as, what should we do

about it? my colleague, dry read, it's gonna join me in just a few minutes, and we're back after a quick break. quick break.

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♪ ♪ ♪ -- voting early in voting by mail whenever tools used just by the democratic party. it's easy to forget this.

-- home of a staunch republicans, many of them senator john mccain, he was a trail blazer in expanding early voting back in his day. over three decades ago, that can -- pass legislation that would allow voters to request an absentee ballot for any reason. anyone can vote early. without an excuse. and by the general election in 2018, when arizonans elected the republican, by the way, governor doug doocy -- and the ballots made up 80% of the votes cast. then came the 2020 election cycle, and things went off the rails of. because that states made voting more accessible and safer for voters in the face of a once in a century pandemic, the republican nominee and his acolytes suddenly became terrified, absolutely freaked, but more people might participate in our democratic process. and as a result, trump wound up the maga conspiracy machine -- fully random up. >> mail-in ballots are very dangerous.

there's tremendous fraud involved and tremendous illegality. >> we don't want to have vote by mail. >> it's the biggest risk we have. the mail-in ballot. >> universal mail-in, very bad. mail-in ballots will lead to the greatest rigged election and the greatest fraud in the history of our country. >> of course, as we all know, there was not and has never been any evidence whatsoever of mass voter fraud. but early voting and mail-in voting was a very important part of that election. let's not forget the margins in key states where super, super close. pennsylvania was only decided by 81,000 votes. wisconsin by 20,000. georgia, 11,000. arizona, 10,000. and in those states, democrats were running effective early voting and mail-in voting programs. republicans were listening to donald trump. and what he was saying didn't just heard his own chances. but candidates up and down the ticket. and the crazy thing is, it's still happening. just last week, democrat tom suozzi outperformed -- he wasn't a great candidate, but

still outperformed mail-in ballots -- and i bet, it's easy to bet, the republicans wish they'd banked a few more when a snowstorm hit on election day. and there are a number of republican leaders who recognize this is a real problem. of course they do. they finally started to realize that being staunchly against mail-in voting is a very bad idea. you need to make it easier for people to vote. virginia governor -- political action committee spent seven figures on early vote pitch -- push, sorry, i had of the states -- and the states parties -- specifically tells republican voters that, quote, absentee voting by mail and early voting in person are both safe and secure ways to cast your ballot. very true. this past summer, the republican national committee also announced -- republican voters comfortable with voting early. writing, quote, in all 56 states and territories, your

republican party will be working hard to get our voters to vote by mail or early in person. and look, there's a very good investments. encouraging early voting and mail-in voting is a good thing for democracy, for campaign strategy, but for all of that work, for all the millions that republicans have invested in early vote initiatives, they still have one very significant problem. >> i will secure our elections where the goal will be one day voting with paper ballots, and voter i. d.. mail in voting is totally corrupt. get that through your head. it has to be. >> that was on saturday. as in, two days ago. michigan. where this race is probably gonna be super close again. it's a swing state. listen up, republicans. it's not great that the leader of the party's knee capping or get out to vote message. not great for you. but of course, that's

indicative of the larger problem within the republican party at this moment. sacrificing basic common sense like early voting and mail-in voting for the winds and delusions of a conspiratorial leader. coming up, an important conversation about the disturbing scenes out of nashville, tennessee over the weekend. a group of people were seen decked out in nazi gear marching near the state capitol. joy reid joins me when we

over the weekend, we got a chilling reminder that racism, of course, remains an unfortunate part of this country's dna. just a warning, but we're gonna show you is disturbing, but shouldn't be ignored. on saturday, neo-nazis marched in downtown nashville, carrying swastikas. -- white supremacist organization. just listen to tennessee state representative justin jones just driving that scene. >> they are literally having a

nazi march here in downtown nashville. white supremacists talking about -- white supremacists, neo-nazis -- racial hatred. this is what we're seeing here in nashville. >> you might remember that state representative jones was removed by his gop colleagues from the tennessee state house last year for protesting gun violence. now, he's accusing those same republicans of inviting and fostering the kind of demonstrations he witnessed on nashville's streets on saturday. think about it. actual nazis are still marching in our cities. in 2024. in fact -- number of public demonstrations by a nazi groups last year at paced that was held in 2020, 2021, and 2022. and yet, some republicans can't admit that racism still is and ever was a problem in this country. >> were you involved in a racist party? >> no. we're not a racist country,

brian. we've never been a racist country. >> okay, nikki. i'm joined now by my colleague, joy reid, host of the readout on msnbc. she's out with a new book, a number one new york times bestseller, by the way, which many people can't say -- medgar and murray the love story that awaken america. first of all, joy, congratulations. it was hard to find a book this weekend. it was sold out in the local bookstore. i think. because everybody wants to read it. but before we get to the book, i just want to ask you about what i just showed, and what i just talked about. something you said that provoked those remarks from nikki haley -- i want to ask, why is it so easy for ambassador haley and others to view the country sees such rose tinted glasses? there's a literal nazis marching in the streets in broad daylight. >> yeah. it is insane. and i actually believe that nikki haley knows better. she's pandering to an audience of voters who love donald

trump, or who at least have accepted that racist politics are not a deal breaker for them when it comes to voting. and she knows that. but she is willing to, and has in the past, been willing to affirm the confederate flag in the state of south carolina. -- when she wanted to be governor, so she knows better. it is interesting, jen, that we are 100 years, almost to the month, past the democratic convention. the one to try to replace calvin coolidge as president. the convention in new york, and madison square garden, but was nicknamed the klan bake, because there were open members of the ku klux klan inside of the arena. the democratic party knows that is where they come from. and yet, there is enough change in that party for that to be the same -- at least, the name was the same, of the party that elected barack obama as president of the united states, the first black president. so you can have a character arc within these political parties, sadly for the republicans, the character arc has been in

reverse. they have gone back to a 1930's style of politics, down to saying american first, which was the name of the pro-nazi, pro fascist movement in the 30s. there were open clan marches in the 1930s. the republican party has decided to go back and pick up -- the old, democratic party style of the time. too openly embrace, essentially, a racist motivation for people to vote for their dear leader, who openly espouses fascism and political violence. it's a sad state of affairs. >> the focus, the willingness to turn a blind eye to the glaring problem of racism is actually a focus of your new book. medgar and murray. medgar was -- killed 60 years ago, over 60 years ago. and this is, of course, what we're still talking about today. but you described it foremost as a love story. and it really is beautiful, and that sense. tell me a little more about that. >> well yeah. i want to approach it a little

differently. i think we sort of look at these great figures in our history as sort of marble statues, and forget that these people. these were men, who fell in love, they had kids, they had lives, they had bickering with their spouses, and they had all of that. they met on the college campus, on the first day of school in 1950. you know, she was a literal 1950s housewife whose husband happened to not just sell insurance but also south civil rights and liberation and the most difficult and dangerous state to be black in america. so this was a story about their love, they're really romantic relationship, but also their challenges. -- trying to accept the idea that her husband was doing a thing that could likely get him killed. and i think a lot about that as we are looking at what the navalny's are dealing with, with alexei navalny going deliberately into danger. we see that kind of physical

heroism throughout our history, and throughout the history and other countries. but in this country, the most dangerous place to be black was mississippi, and he was willing to stay there and fight for liberation, and put himself at risk. >> and she took on his mental, as you discuss in this book, which is so reminiscent of what's happening today. in the book, you describe how -- organized a sit in at a lunch counter in mississippi eight days after the supreme court ruled that racial segregation and restaurant violated the 14th amendment. violence broke out anyway. but it just slows how favorable supreme court rulings weren't enough. it's such a reminder. -- activists had to actually put them to the test. so what lesson in the minute we have left here, what lessons do you think we can apply today? >> absolutely. this was literally weeks before his drop. this was may 28th 1963, a few days later -- the reality is, he believed that supreme court rulings were not enough to

deliver liberation. and had to be delivered three people on the ground, in mississippi, fighting for their own freedom and developing their own sense of dignity. and he sided with the young activists who wanted to mike, you wanted to sit in. this was an interracial group of students from -- and a professor, john salters, a white professing -- presenting professor who was indigenous. and for black people -- the three black students. and the four of them, as an international group, sat in that lunch counter and showed that courage is the way you fight for liberation. we need courage to have freedom in this country. >> courage. i love it. dry bag, thank you so much. congratulations. i left you a little something in your office. your book is available now, wherever you get your books. we'll be right back. oks. we'll be right back.

before we go tonight, i wanted to share one moment from an interview i just did with california senator laphonza

butler that really stood with me. -- as the only black woman in the senate right now i asked her what the biggest barriers are that make it difficult for more black women to do what she has done. >> there remain barriers around the perception of black women. and their leadership. there remain barriers in terms of the stereotypes that are applied to black women. even in the u.s. senate today, i feel like some colleagues apply those stereotypes to me. >> how do you experience that? >> you know, you have such a great temperament. as if they expect what? that you're angry? what is the expectation? that is an interesting question, isn't it? you have -- you know, you just have the right approach to being in the u.s. senate. again, and i think it is potentially well intended if i start with assuming no motivation or ill intent.

i think there's just a blindness through the stereotypes that are applied. sometimes, it's willful. it's a willful dismissal of what black women bring to the cable, and the voices that we bring to every room. >> that does it for me tonight. the rachel maddow show starts right now. hi, rachel. >> hey jennifer, thank you. thank you for joining us this hour. chicago, the museum of science and industry in chicago has a lot of amazing stuff. science museums are almost always great. science museums are the best. but at the museum of science and industry, in chicago, they have some through the crazy stuff. i kid you not, at that museum, in chicago they have got a replica coal mine. a replica coal mine.