from 2020 will work just as well by focusing almost solely on trump and sort of not letting biden run against himself but run against trump instead. >> make it a referendum on trump rather than on biden. >> right. >> with abortion rights also being a potential key factor. important conversation. opinion editor and writer alexi mccammond, thank you for joining us. we appreciate it. thanks to all of you for getting up "way too early" with us on this tuesday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. quite frankly, the response to the first show last monday was universally glowing. >> jon stewart is facing massive backlash from democrats over his comments about joe biden. after nine years away, there is nothing else to say about jon stewart bashing biden except, make it another nine years. another tweeted, sorry, but i won't be watching you either. >> okay. maybe not universal.

that was on twitter. everything on twitter gets backlash. i've seen twitter tell labradoodles to [ bleep ] themselves. >> jon stewart last night joking about how not everyone is thrilled he is back at "the daily show." we have a lot to get to this morning. that was good. >> labradoodles, yeah. >> donald trump making the death of russia's opposition leader all about himself and trump's resistance to condemn vladimir putin has him isolated from even far right republicans. >> well, willie, it's just extraordinary. we're going to be reading a few op-eds from people who are the conservative's conservative. also, some reactions, not just to navalny but what's happening in nato. you have, i mean, everybody from gerard baker to mark lavin

saying, what are you people doing? do you know what the stakes are here? not just in the navalny death. you know, this grotesque comparison -- talk about big lies -- this comparison, people like newt gingrich comparing joe biden to vladimir putin. it is a rewind, like eight years, however long it was, when donald trump came on our program and said, basically, oh, putin is not bad. we kill people, too, joe. of course, gerard baker, the emeritus op-ed editor for "the wall street journal" tears that argument to shreds. certainly no fan of joe biden, but you have that.

even bigger than that, my god, lindsey graham and other republicans, especially mike johnson, willing to turn ukraine, central and western europe, over to vladimir putin. >> yeah, it's pretty stunning. in fact, speaker johnson was down at mar-a-lago over the last couple days, running around the cabanas and taking care of donald trump and showing he stands with him. you know, this is one of the very, very rare moments that you're seeing some dissent in the republican party. >> yeah. >> with donald trump, his hard core supporters and many of the members of the house, of course, do whatever he says and will be with him all the way. but in the senate especially and some of the media figures that always take care of donald trump, you're hearing their voices on this question saying, donald trump, you've got it wrong. his response to the death of alexei navalny is not helping either. >> grotesque. the whole thing is grotesque. >> nancy pelosi has the question spot on. we'll talk about that. meanwhile, president biden is considering new action against russia in response to alexei navalny's death. we'll go through his possible options. also, israel is giving hamas

an ult mate ultimatum on the remaining hostages. free them by ramadan or face an all-out invasion. we'll talk about that. we have jonathan lemire of "politico," and pulitzer prize winning columnist at "the washington post," eugene robinson joins us. good to have you. days after navalny died in a siberian prison, donald trump finally addressed the tragedy yesterday and made it about him. in a social media post, the likely 2024 republican presidential nominee compared navalny's death to his own situation. writing in part, quote, "the sudden death of alexei navalny has made me more and more aware of what is happening in our country." adding, quote, "we are a nation

in decline. a failing nation. maga 2024." so he made it about himself and his campaign. notably absent from trump's message were any condolences to navalny's family and no condemnation of the man most believe to be responsible for his death, and that would be, of course, russian president vladimir putin. a lot to get to on this. there's been a lot of reaction to donald trump on this, and not everybody is falling in line. i think it is almost a little jarring to hear him talk this way. i hope it is. >> it is jarring. we'll actually seeing a continued part of a process. process began in 2015 when donald trump, there was just something wrong. donald trump would come on our show. he'd go on other shows. i know he talked to bill o'rye o'reilly. it was a constant defense of

vladimir putin. it was this love of vladimir putin and this fear. this absolute fear of ever crossing him. in 2015, led him to say that vladimir putin was a strong leader, a great leader, and when i brought up that he killed journalists and political opponents -- >> he shrugged. >> he said, "we kill people, too, joe." he continued doing that. we've seen now -- it's hard to believe, but we've seen now other members of the republican party eat that line. there is, right now, a connection. donald trump, viktor orban in hungary, an anti-west thug that runs hungary, and vladimir putin. you've seen the trump right move in that direction, and it is just absolutely frightening and jarring and unlike anything we've seen in domestic politics,

that major figures are now going to the side that, well, people who consider america enemies. "wall street journal" editor at large, gerard baker, wrote about this this morning in a piece titled, "the moral blindness of putin's apologists on the right." he writes in part, "the only response of all decent people to the death of navalny in a siberian prison camp is grief, disgust, and unqualified condemnation. it is the sort of event that defines the malevolent nature of mr. putin's russia. but that sort of decency evidently was above the moral reach of the prominent leaders of what used to be the conservative movement. newt gingrich saw a parallel that many others highlighted. navalny's, quote, death in prison is a brutal reminder that jailing your political opponents is inhumane and violation of a

free society," he tweeted. mr. biden isn't vladimir putin. newt compared vladimir putin to joe biden, which is grotesque. i wait for newt to grow out of this. i really do. i really do. he's incapable. he compares biden to vladimir putin, to which gerard baker writes, "mr. biden isn't vladimir putin. mr. biden doesn't invade neighbors under false pretext. killing indiscriminately. he doesn't make people who have fallen into disfavor fall from the windows of tall buildings," has he, newt? has he, newt? why do you lie? why do you keep lying for donald trump? baker goes on, "if you condition can't see the difference, i say respectfully, you've lost or

discarded your capacity for moral reasoning." let me continue, jonah goldberg, conservative columnist for the "l.a. times" wrote this, "no, donald trump does not equal alexei navalny." he writes in part this, "for numerous right-wing republican figures, the real lesson of navalny's killing is that navalny equals trump. trump himself invoked the comparison on social media. his first mention of navalny's name wasn't to condemn the death or putin's role, but to cast himself as an americana valueny." >> oh, god. >> "condemning such false moral equivalents was once equal to american conservatism. trump is not an innocent anti-corruption crusader, brutalized and murdered for championing democracy and the rule of law." he does the opposite. "there are ample criticisms of

the case against trump, but even if you agree with all of them, i don't, the notion that joe biden is the moral equivalent of put putin is a slander, not merely of biden but of america itself." and why am i so angry? why am i so angry about this? because these are attacks on america. these aren't just attacks on joe biden. this is an attack on america that we've seen donald trump participating in since he came on our show in december of 2015, saying that american leaders were just as bad as vladimir putin, who openly kills opponents. goldberg goes on and says, "indeed, one reason we know it's not true, publicly criticizing putin's treatment of navalny can land you in a russian cell. criticizing's biden's alleged treatment of trump can land you in a fox news studio."

gene robinson. >> incredible. >> there are few words. you have these freaks, weirdos, insurrectionists, radicals on the far, far right. they're not even the right now. they're in the trump death cult for american democracy. to make those comparisons are so grotesque. to compare america to russia is so grotesque. to compare trump to navalny, trump who flies around in a 757, who lives in a golden skyscraper, who lives in mar-a-lago, when you have navalny dead, poisoned in a penal colony. all of this is so grotesque. what is so shocking is, this isn't one freak legislator, right-wing freak legislator from louisiana or iowa. this is the next republican

nominee for president of the united states in 2024. >> mm-hmm. >> republicans are falling in line. they're saying, the hell with america. we will trash america. we'll say it's just like russia. just like trump's been doing since 2015. just to elect this con artist who wants to undermine america's rule of law and american democracy. >> yeah, you have to assume, actually, that that tweet or statement by donald trump is the new maga party line on navalny. it is just incredible. note that he refers to the sudden death of alexei navalny as if, you know, he had tripped down a staircase in his house or something like that. no, he was sent to a siberian prison camp to die, to be killed, probably to be poisoned. who knows?

but he's dead like anybody who opposes vladimir putin. trump mentions, of course, unfair courtroom decisions. he's still smarting from all the court judgments and rulings against him last week. and so, two things. first of all, you know, you have mike johnson, the speaker of the house, the third ranking official in the united states government, down there bending the knee to donald trump. this is serious. this is really serious. >> yeah. >> and you have the republican party essentially turning its back, at least the people who are running the republican party, turning their back on nato at a time when vladimir putin is making gains in ukraine, refusing to authorize

new funds, military aid for ukraine so it can fight back. talk to europeans. very clearly and alarmingly putting the security of europe and the world in danger. this is what the republican party is going with. this is what they believe now. it's just appalling. >> by the way, jonathan lemire, as we look at that picture from mar-a-lago last night, if you had doubt about who is running the congress, who is running the house of representatives, there's your answer right there. speaker johnson making his pilgrimage to see trump down there. let's talk about the other side of this. the president of the united states obviously, quickly and strongly, condemned vladimir putin for the death of alexei navalny a couple days ago. how is the white house, how is the biden administration handling this with trump so far on the other side? >> the biden campaign account took the post of johnson and trump and captioned it, "the

speaker of the house meets with mike johnson," making it very clear who they think runs the show, which is donald trump. certainly, as some republicans gathered in the munich security conference over the weekend, that is where many american lawmakers, the vice president was there, as well. when they learned of navalny's death and navalny's widow powerfully spoke, mike johnson was not there. he was at mar-a-lago. lindsey graham was at the border. they're taking orders from donald trump and going where he tells them to do. the biden campaign is seizing on this. we heard from the president hours after navalny's death saying, look, the way to stand up to putin, to make him pay for what he did to navalny, to ukraine, is to arm ukraine. the soldiers on the front lines losing battles, running out of ammunition. we have to help them. there's some hope among republicans, you know, in the senate and lots of democrats that that could happen. maybe navalny's death will be a galvanizing factor, but it is unclear the votes are there.

certainly unclear whether speaker johnson will be moved. we heard from president biden yesterday briefly address reporters, and he said, yes, he would like that to happen, but he's not sure there will be any movement. short of that, the campaign and the white house, willie, will continue to be on the offensive in terms of driving home, you know, president trump's refusal to criticize vladimir putin, his threats to upend nato, his encouragement of russia to invade nato countries if they don't pay their fair share. he has deemed them un-american. the rhetoric will continue. the issue is can it be followed up by actions. there is a limit to what the white house can do if the congress won't cooperate. >> what are the real world implications of it? in ukraine, russian forces captured a key city in the eastern part of ukraine, marking russia's largest gain on the battlefield in nine months. as ukraine's military now faces a critical shortsshortage of ammunition. joining us is chief foreign

correspondent richard engel in ukraine. what's the latest there? >> reporter: i was just talking to soldiers out here in eastern ukraine a few minutes ago, and they were telling me that the shortages of ammunition are now so extreme that they're counting bullets. they are rationing their artillery rounds. they are rationing their regular ammunition that they put into their rifles. they still have enough drones, they say, because they have a local manufacturing base. they're using in some cases 3d printers to make drones, but they're not in a position right now to launch any new offensives, and they're not really in a position to hold the line. we saw the loss of avdiivka, not very far from here, out in eastern ukraine over the weekend, and that was a terrible blow for the ukrainian military because ukrainian military had been holding on to this small

city for many years. it's been a contested area. but as they were overwhelmed, outmanned, outgunned, the government decided that holding it simply wasn't worth it. as we've seen on the other side, as we've seen with the russians, once you start losing territory and once you start having to go on the back foot and retreat, you can lose territory quite quickly. it can cleave off a little bit like glaciers off the side of a mountain. it doesn't necessarily go one little town and stop. right now, you have a situation where ukrainian forces out here in the east are in retreat. the concern is can they stop that? can they stop this wound before it spreads and they lose significant amounts of territory? the way they do that, soldiers here tell me the only way to do that is to urgently get more weapons, more supplies, particularly from the united states. we've heard that time and time

again, but we're seeing it now out here in the east. it's not theoretical anymore. >> yeah, it is being felt, and that's why president zelenskyy is desperately asking the united states and this congress to get some aid in their direction. richard, you have new reporting about renewed concerns about a power plant people may remember from earlier in the war, zaporizhzhia. it is the largest power plant in europe. what are the new concerns there? >> reporter: major concerns. i'm not sure if you saw the story we had on "nightly news" last night. it was about the zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant. the plant, the biggest nuclear plant in europe, has six uranium reactors. the plant was taken over in the early weeks of war by russian forces. russian forces captured the plant. they took over the facility. they captured the personnel inside. ukrainian forces were able to hold onto the opposite bank of

the river. the plant is on the front line with ukrainian forces on one side of the river and russian forces on the other side of the river. the iaea, and i spoke to the director general, is deeply concerned about this facility. one, because it's right on the front line. two, the knock-on effect of the war is having a tremendous impact on the plant. the plant is in a semi shut down state right now, so it is in a kind of safe mode, but it still requires outside electricity. there are four electrical lines leading into the plant. ukrainian officials, including the former director of the plant, told me that three of those four external power lines, which are essential for cooling and keeping the reactors stable, are not working. and the fourth, the final line, is faulty.

there have been eight blackouts at this plant recently, the last one a few months ago in december. the iaea considers this plant the most dangerous nuclear facility in the world. ukrainians are describing it as a ticking time bomb. they say that if there were to be another blackout and the diesel generators, which luckily did kick in, the final backup don't kick in, you could get a meltdown along the lines of fukushima contaminating large parts of ukraine and beyond, and spreading out into the region, contaminating crops, livestock, and potentially killing and making people, tens of thousands of people either sick or killing them directly. >> critical situation. nbc's richard engel with great reporting from eastern ukraine this morning. richard, thanks so much. joe, richard said something a few minutes ago. this is no longer theoretical. all these months of holding up this aid in the united states congress is showing itself now on the battlefield.

as richard said, ukraine is in retreat in places it thought it held, that it had captured and was going to hold onto. europe is doing its part. this morning, sweden passed through $682 million more. they're trying to make up and fill the hole left by the united states, but the situation is critical. >> same thing happening from japan. other american allies are stepping forward. you know, the hypocrisy of these trumpers who always bitch and moan about other countries not doing their fair share, not doing their part. right now, it is donald trump and mike johnson who are aiding and assisting. right now, those two people are vladimir putin's best friends, not only in the united states but across the world. because those two people, those two people are what stands between congress passing aid and

not passing aid to help the ukrainian people push back on a russian invasion that just unleashed one human rights violation after another. you know, willie, you had said this before. you have people, actually, on all sides of the idealogical spectrum trying to push back against the madness, this pro-putin madness of donald trump and mike johnson. here's mark lavin, very popular, very conservative radio host who doesn't agree with what we say often. mark wrote this. "russia is gaining on ukraine, which is running out of certain crucial weaponry and having to pull back from areas it had controlled, and faces losing the war russia started. is that okay with everyone? ukraine is a relatively small

country without the capacity for a large industrial economy in which it can build the needed weapons. this is not theoretical," as you were saying, willie. this is not theoretical. "this is reality. nato countries border ukraine, and if putin moves on any of them, then what? he has said in the past he is eyeing poland, romania, and the ball kan eyeing poland, romania, and the bal states. this is a grave situation." how grave is the situation? it is grave for ukraine. it is grave for freedom in europe. it is grave because we fought a cold war for 42 years, for 42 years, from harry truman to jfk to ronald reagan to brzezinski, to madeleine albright, to colin

powell, you name it. republicans and democrats alike dedicated, devoted their lives to freeing the lives of europeans enslaved by russia, by soviet russia. here we are. here we are. we have a guy who wants to be president again, and his pathetic little speaker who are actually doing vladimir putin's bidding. gene robinson, in putin, you have someone who has said, the greatest tragedy of the 20th century was america's victory in the cold war. the collapse of the soviet union. the collapse of the berlin wall. the freeing of tens of millions

of europeans, right? by the way, ronald reagan, a hero in central and eastern europe. the same reagan that talked about freedom in europe is the same reagan that talks about the importance of immigration. the same reagan that donald trump does violence to his legacy every single day he opens his mouth. but, gene, there is vladimir putin, viktor orban, who was the one leader in europe, in the eu, that is on russia's side. then you have donald trump. >> yup. >> we've been warning about it for years, but there is a straight line from trump to orban, who hates the west, to vladimir putin. right now, they're lining up. >> yeah. >> to help with the spread of

tyranny. as mark said, this is not theoretical. this is happening right now. >> right. donald trump has the perfect implement for this in mike johnson, who has consistently voted against ukraine aid, long before he became speaker. so you have to assume that he's all in on this, right? he's got, on some level, he actually supports putin and actually opposes ukraine and its freedom fighters and opposes nato. that's the only conclusion you can draw. vladimir putin is not just talking about reclaiming the territories that had made up the soviet union, which clearly he would like to do, and how nervous would you be if you were in one of the baltic states right now, for example, watching what's happening in ukraine? i hesitate to call it an

interview, but in that lecture to tucker carlson he gave the other day, he talks a lot about poland. poland, poland, how poland was responsible somehow. >> he wants to invade it again, gene! he wants to invade poland. >> exactly. >> he wants to invade poland. >> he was fixated on poland. was anybody listening? does anybody understand what that means? >> yeah. >> if they do understand what that means, they're okay with that? it's just -- it's crazy, but it's tragic because, as richard engel pointed out, the ukrainians are losing ground now. that is a terribly precarious situation to be in. you know, at the very least, we should be providing enough aid for them to hold the line. as it is now, you have to wonder about the capacity, their

capacity to hold on. if we don't come in with that aid, and we have weapons nobody else has, that ukraine desperately needs. >> and the signals we send -- at the beginning of our support for ukraine, there were people on the far, far left that would mock and ridicule the argument that china was watching. that if we didn't push back on russia, if we didn't support ukraine, that not only would putin get that message and keep going into ukraine and going to the ball kan going into ukraine and going to the bal states, but xi would get the message and he'd go into taiwan. he wants to go into taiwan. if america lost its will to support people fighting for their own freedom, the message would be sent. >> yeah. >> the message that xi is getting right now from little mike johnson and donald trump is

just devastating. the message is this, republicans, who for the past 50 years have been the main force to push back hard on communism, they've surrendered to the communists. they've surrendered. mike johnson surrendered to the communists, to the ex-communists, the wanna be communists. mike johnson surrendered. donald trump surrendered a long time ago to vladimir putin. surrendered to xi a long time ago. he has nothing but praise for xi, for kim jong-un, these communist leaders, mika. that is a message that xi is receiving loud and clear. it's not just donald trump now. it is the republican party. the bulwark of congress nis communist aggression, it is ronald reagan's old party that has collapsed. >> it is gone. this is a terrifying inflection

point. >> it is. >> for anybody who doesn't take it seriously or think the election doesn't matter, says, oh, he's not serious, you're out of your mind at this point. you have to listen at -- >> delusional. >> -- what's happening. also, i mean, if you read the judge's judgment in the civil fraud trial, it talks about trump's behavior, not just being bad, not just being impossible to stop, being pathological. you have to ask the question, what is going on here? he's absolutely doing something for himself or for putin. it is the opposite of patriotism. opposite of dedication to this country. still ahead on "morning joe," we'll have much more on the fallout over alexei navalny's death when former u.s. ambassador to russia, michael mcfaul, joins the conversation. plus, israel issues a new threat to invade gaza's southern most city of rafah next month if the remaining hostages are not

freed. we'll have the latest on the growing tensions in the region. also ahead, republican presidential candidate nikki haley is expected to give a major speech today. we'll have a preview of that and a look at the state of the race ahead of this weekend's south carolina primary. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. you're sat in a lot of these rooms, many of them. i want to ask you, sort of, how does putin, how does he consume what's happening here in the united states? trump's words, or lack of words, i should say. >> i think he sees things moving in his direction, and he outdid himself in terms of disinformation a couple days ago. reporter asked, what do you think of biden versus trump? he said, biden is predictable and so on, implying he was endorsing biden. >> what did you think when you heard that. >> it is a disinformation effort. >> to confuse people. >> to give trump the opportunity, which he is foolish enough to take, to say, i thought it was a compliment to me. i mean, if trump is elected,

there will be celebrations in the kremlin. there's no doubt about it. because putin thinks that he is an easy mark. ♪♪

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hearing will get under way in federal court in las vegas for the fbi informant indicted on two counts of allegedly lying to the bureau about president biden and his son hunter during the 2020 presidential election. alexander smirnov is facing charges of making a false statement to a government agent and falsification of records in a federal investigation. the 37-page indictment alleges smirnov had been a confidential source for the fbi since 2010 and, quote, provided false, derogatory information to the agency about both bidens after joe biden became a candidate for president in 2020. smirnov has also been critical to the house republicans' impeachment inquiry into president biden. >> here we have, willie, these -- >> this was their person?

>> -- these informants. you kept having comer and his chief council, arnold the pig, straight from "green acres" fame and, again, it's just a joke. one of them, an international fugitive who smuggles oil, illegal oil from iran to russia or china. i forget what communist or formerly communist country they illegally smuggle oil to. arms dealing. again, a fugitive on the run. that's one of them. now, this guy who has been busted lying to the fbi. of course, some people on other news networks trying to tap dance as fast as they can, trying to blame the justice department for this guy lying through his teeth to them. >> yeah, i mean, this has become a ritual, hasn't it? we saw mr. comer trot out a witness. this is the star witness. this is a smoking gun.

$5 billion in bribes. the witness either goes on the run, i think the guy you mentioned is still on the run, they haven't tracked down the fugitive, or in the case with mr. smirnov now, the special counsel, a donald trump appointee if you are following the deep state conspiracies here, not friendly to the current president of the united states, he says the star witness to this committee was lying about everything he told the committee. now, on fox and other places, that i had to run away from this guy. people have to understand, this committee and other news outlets hung their hat on this man, smirnov. this is it. this is the man who said in testimony that, in fact, joe biden himself took bribes. it wasn't just hunter biden. it turns out, according to the trump-appointed prosecutor who became the special counsel, it was all made up. it was all a lie. >> that special counsel, david weiss, hardly a popular person in the biden white house. >> yeah. >> you know, he brought charges

against hunter biden that led to the plea deal collapse. hunter biden now likely going to trial later this year. they're no fan of his, but this is someone who did his job here and realized that this informant was lying and brought charges subsequent to that. republicans, though, seem to be going full steam ahead. we will see if this measure fizzles out in the weeks ahead. right now, those committee hearings on the impeachment inquiry are still scheduled. we're expecting to hear from both hunter biden and joe biden's brother, who will be pulled into congress in the weeks ahead. i think it is not surprising, though pathetic, that there's been zero coverage of this informant's arrest on fox news and other republican-leaning outlets. even though they talked about him so much in the weeks prior. >> well, there's been coverage. >> mika -- >> they're saying this is weaponization of the government. >> sure. >> they're silening him, arresting him. i mean -- >> the lies continue.

>> yeah. >> it's just endless. >> the disinformation. >> it's an endless supply of disinformation to protect donald trump and to go after joe biden. it never stops. you'd think after $787 million for lying, you would think at some point, at some point, there would be sort of an attempt to get the facts right. there's not. >> none. >> front page of "the new york times" today, you have alexei navalny's widow saying that she is going to continue the fight. she asks that opponents share her anger. mika, same on the "wall street journal" front page. >> yulia, an incredible woman, a mother. in the middle of all of this agony that her family is facing, she has stepped into the limelight, taken the mantle, really. he has passed the torch, and she

is going to continue the fight. >> she is tough, and she is resolute, isn't she? >> absolutely. we're going to be talking to ambassador mcfaul, who knows her well. they have children here in america, grown children. they have a lot of work to do, and they need a lot of help. coming up, is there an anti-trump burnout that's getting in the way of president biden's bid to energize democrat voters ahead of the likely 2020 rematch? we'll dig into that new reporting from "the new york times." "morning joe" will be right back.

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i will take the bruises. i will take the cuts. this is going to be messy. i'll take the hurt because i believe nothing in good comes easy. >> that's nikki haley speaking with voters in south carolina last night, her home state, of course. she's set to give a major speech there later today ahead of the state's primary this saturday. campaign officials are telling nbc news haley is not dropping out of the race. joining us now, former white house director of communications for president obama, jennifer palmieri. she and claire mccaskill are co-oco co-hosts of the podcast, "how to win 2024." 23 point lead for trump in south carolina. >> that's better. >> down a little from what we've seen but a commanding lead, obviously, on her home surf, in her home state, where she's been campaigning almost a month. she hasn't gone full chris

christie since new hampshire, but she's knocked on the door. she's making the case at least about how dangerous a donald trump presidency would be this time. >> right. this weekend, she is on a sunday show, and she refused to say she was going to back trump if he was the nominee. that's different. in the summer, she said that she would. she is showing more fight. that poll, i think she was down 30 in other polls. her metric, she's very smart about creating a metric by which she can continue to survive. like last night, she was laying out how difficult it would be, you know, how difficult this process is, but she's going to hang in there. her metric before had been, let me close the gap. meaning, do better than what the polling suggests. then she's got a speech tonight at clemson where i presume she'll lay out her theory for how she continues in the race. >> she said, i'm staying in through super tuesday. >> get some delegates. >> of course. if she can survive and continue through a big loss in her home state, if that does happen on

saturday. on the other side of this campaign, a new piece in "the new york times" is looking at a sense of burnout and exhaustion settling in for the so-called anti-trump resistance. katie glick writes, interviews with activists and officials make clear president joe biden's challenge in energizing americans who are unenthusiastic about a likely 2020 rematch are worried about his age and, in some cases, are struggling to sustain the searing anger toward donald trum the democrats have relied on for nearly a decade. we're crisised out, one said. no one is more terrifying to voters than mr. trump. many believe their voters will grow increasingly engaged as the general election nears and mr. trump's legal problems unfold. certainly, mr. trump is hardly a morning in america candidate. and some tuned him out since he

left office, but that'll soon be unavoidable. katie glueck, the author of the piece, joins us now. the exhaustion is understandable. it feels like the decade of every morning, waking up to some new crisis or outrage. do you get the sense maybe they're tuned out now, and given the stakes of the election, they tune in in october, say? >> certainly, the democrats hope. they point to elections as recently as last week, in long island. also, pennsylvania. they point to those as their voters remaining motivated when there are actual elections. you know, across the board, polling shows that americans are exhausted and unenthused by the prospect of a biden/trump rematch. it's been seen as a true national emergency, and they're hoping to saddle up again at a

moment when there are signs of some of those voters feeling fatigue. >> when voters -- when they're expressing the sort of fatigue that they have, do they express an acceptance of trump, in that, somehow, a trump presidency would be -- it's not worth waking up to go vote just because they're feeling that they have absorbed him? or is there pushback that, eventually, yes, i'll turn out to vote? >> it depends on the voter. i did not speak to any democratic or democratic-leaning voters who would ever really consider voting for donald trump. the concern i hear from strategists is, and other party officials, is people will feel so disillusioned by their

choices, perhaps they're not motivated to turn out and vote, which is certainly something that i know democrats broadly are working to counteract, working to energize now, and i think we can anticipate that growing in intensity moving forward. >> joe, as i said, no one could be blamed for being exhausted by our politics right now. i mean, nobody could be blamed for that. >> right. >> but the fact of the matter is, if you thought 2016 or 2020 was an emergency, my god, look how much worse things could be in 2024. >> yeah. >> all the sirens are blaring. donald trump every day gives you a reason to understand the stakes are so much higher now. whether he is talking about terminating the constitution, whether he is talking about assassinating generals. does this sound familiar? assassinating generals who are disloyal to him, or shooting them for treason. or whether he talks about how he has the right, that he is legally protected if he tical rs

as president, he should have complete immunity on that. go down the list. what i'm finding is, as far as exhaustion setting in, jen, i'm finding exhaustion among trump supporters that, in my family, in my neighborhood, in my old church, people i grew up with who voted for trump in '16, voted for trump in '20, no apologies. even as trump was calling me a murderer, no apologies. they were just going to vote for donald trump. post january 6th, post chaos of the last couple of years, they're the ones i'm talking to who are exhausted. i must say also, and i do -- i completely understand the whole thing with being exhausted by trump. i'm exhausted by him every single day. but the fight continues until he's driven off the political stage and the threat to democracy is in the background.

but you just look. here's wigle said. the moms demand action keeps grinding and wing, too. >> yup. >> the performative stuff has faded but the voters cram into any available polling booth. wonderful way to say it. voters, and i start in 2017, and i think of those women standing in the rain. >> yeah. >> in virginia. >> in virginia. shocking the political world not only with their gubernatorial vote but also the assembly. it's continued one after another. whether you're talking about county races in delaware county, pennsylvania electing democrats for the first time in a century. whether you're talking about democrats winning governorships in louisiana and kentucky. we could go on and on. there's never been anything really quite like this. yes, i understand the exhaustion

factor. trump exhausts all of us. at the same time, it seems, again, going back to the long island race last week, the resistance against donald trump in its purest form is when voters, as dave said, when voters cram into any available polling places in their communities to vote against donald trump. >> yeah, and you have to protect against people feeling it doesn't matter. we're all exhausted. i fear voters might be unnerved to trump, which is what i was asking katie about. if people just can't absorb more of the outrage from him. but that is not what we saw in the long island race. also, i'm a fan of sarah longwell's focus group. she's a never trump republican group that says, weekly focus groups with trump voters. two-time trump voters. they had the same example, the

same experience your friends did, joe. they just decided this time they're too tired. it's too much. it's too hard. you know, the criminal indictments, january 6, all the stuff piled on top of it, and expressed a willingness to not support him this time around. >> gene, as katie writes in the piece, democrats are waking up to the almost certainty, but at least likelihood, that donald trump is the nominee, that he is a serious candidate. maybe there was candidate that the trials or one of these cases was going to take him out, but katie has a line in the piece where, after new hampshire, people said, okay, this is going to be the guy. let's get serious now. >> yeah. absolutely, i don't think there's much doubt about it now. one question to katie is, you talk to democratic voters and strategists who are lacking in enthusiasm. did you get a sense that any of them actually wouldn't vote, actually would not go and vote

in the election and would be okay with that? or is it just enthusiasm short of not voting? >> so i've heard a mix of things. i did speak with some voters who are not certain what they will do in november if their options are biden and trump. again, not that they are necessarily going to become trump voters, but struggling to really think through getting activated around that. you know, they weren't willing to commit at this point about to who they could do. certainly, many voters i spoke with, democratic voters, are saying that regardless of whether they're enthusiastic or tired in this moment, of course they'll vote for joe biden. if he is indeed the democratic nominee, as we all expect. you know, the thing that i did hear from a lot of voters, regardless of how they were thinking through november, was that they do want to hear a bit more of unaffirmative case for president biden. certainly, as we noted, no one

in the eyes of many democrats is more motivating to their voters than the specter of donald trump returning. at the same time, a lot of voters do want to hear something beyond, "we have to stop trump," right? certainly a lot of democrats and the biden campaign argued it's not just about stopping trump, though they certainly do see that as absolutely vital, but it is also about protecting abortion rights. it is also about trying to do more on things like gun safety and, you know, as the biden campaignputs it, it is building on the progress he's made. is that translating into how voters are looking at this race? >> those are the issues that perhaps might bring young people to the polls. i think the risk is young people might tune out a little bit. national political reporter for "the new york times," katie glueck, thank you for coming on the show this morning. >> thank you. ahead, "the atlantic's" anne applebaum will join us with her new piece entitled, "why russia

killed navalny," and why she says the russian opposition leader was still a threat to putin even behind bars. also ahead, the "today" show's savannah guthrie will join us for her new book. we're back in two minutes. this looks like an actual farm. it looks cute on the app. [farm animal sounds] ♪♪ meanwhile, at a vrbo... when other vacation rentals aren't what they're cracked up to be, try one where you know what you'll get.

you wonder, what does putin have on donald trump, that he always has to be beholden to him, his buddy, his buddy in vileness? i don't know if you're going to show the american people the statement that he made, but it's beneath the dignity of a human being. it is so horrible. you think, no, somebody must have made this up. not even donald trump could go this far. as i've said, he is in a limbo competition with him, how far can he go? well, now he's gone below sea level, below ground level, and this statement should disqualify him from running for anything, much less president of the

united states. >> former house speaker nancy pelosi criticizing donald trump's response to the death of russian opposition leader alexei navalny. >> and she asks the question, willie -- >> it is the question. >> she asks the question, what does putin have on donald trump? why has donald trump always fumbled and fallen over himself and just been so obsequious to vladimir putin? we have jonathan lemire on set who asked the question, do you trust putin, or do you trust your own intelligence chiefs that you appointed? he said, ah, ah, putin. he was scared. he was scared to tell vladimir putin in helsinki that he actually trusts his own intel chiefs that he appointed more than vladimir putin, an ex-kgb agent who kills and continues to kill his political opponents. >> it is a question that's hung over his entrance into politics

almost a decade ago. what is going on with him and vladimir putin? why does he excuse everything vladimir putin does? why does he race to his rescue in these moments where the world is rallying against vladimir putin? it was just a few days ago, he stood on a stage at a rally in south carolina and said, if these nato members don't pay up, we will stand back and let put putin take whatever he wants. that is not normal. that is not diplomacy. that is a man who, i guess, at the very least, i guess the generous explanation, joe, is that he admires vladimir putin. he admires that he gets to do whatever he wants and kill his opponents and be the authoritarian that donald trump hopes he can be in his next administration. i would say that's where we should start as a baseline, and maybe it gets worse from there. >> yeah, generous explanation is useful idiot. very useful idiot. >> well, there are a lot of those. we're going to be showing jon stewart's take on tucker

carlson. >> oh, my god. >> being just that in russia, a little later on. jonathan lemire, you were there in helsinki. you saw donald trump just -- he just quivered in vladimir putin's sight. when you asked the question, he couldn't bring himself to say, "yes, i trust the intel community and the chiefs that i appointed to run those intel agencies." he could not even say he trusted them more than vladimir putin. it just, again, just continues. it started on our show in december of 2015 when he talked about admiring vladimir putin so much and dismissing the fact he killed his political opponents. when i pressed him on it, he said, "well, joe, we kill a lot of people, too."

this is donald trump, again, the first of many times, when there was a false equivalency between the united states of america and vladimir putin's russia. >> yeah, we opened the show this morning, of course, you read from the op-ed suggesting the nonsense that is any comparison between trump and navalny. certainly, no one here in the united states, like president biden, is like vladimir putin, trying to incarcerate or kill a political opponent. it is a through line throughout trump's career. in helsinki, he quickly sided with moscow over his own intel agencies. he didn't want to acknowledge or punish russia for interfering with the 2016 election to help him win. you know, later at another meeting with putin later in his presidency, a smaller meeting, he refused to warn putin from doing it again. it's only continued as he's been outside of office. he praised putin for being smart.

he praised the decision to go into ukraine. it is a through line here. it got to a new, dangerous level in the last week or so, when before, i was there in brussels when trump threatened to pull the u.s. out of nato, but moreover, he is encouraging russia to invade nato allies that don't pay their fair share. getting the facts wrong, first of all, but something that would, willie, drag the whole globe into a world war iii if russia were to go into a nato country. even if the u.s. sat it out, other nato allies would have to respond, and who knows what happens from there. donald trump has consistently done vladimir putin's bidding. as a final thought, it is clear putin will stay in ukraine until the 2024 election. if trump wins, putin knows it is smooth sailing for him. >> that was the talk of the munich conference, if donald trump wins, we have to rally and figure out how to protect the west. ptsd trigger warning from the

2016 campaign, jen. >> thank you, willie. >> donald trump and russia. this has been a persistent question. why does he feel the need to constantly defend vladimir putin even in his very worst moment? >> it is the one constant for him. it predates the presidential campaign. it goes back to the early 2010s. it is something that we tried to get to the bottom of, the clinton campaign, and couldn't quite do. speaker pelosi last night said she suspects there's something financial involved. you know, he's definitely in need of money. i don't know what's happening. it is the one constant with this guy. i mean, we knew, you know, how is he going to respond to navalny? the one thing we know is that he will not criticize vladimir putin. that has never happened. >> at this point, it's way past that. last week, we showed you many of the times donald trump praised

vladimir putin. the flip side is trump's ongoing attacks of nato, of course. the former president has been disparaing the alliance and its members for several years, going back to his 2016 campaign. >> nato is obsolete. it is old. it is fat. it's sloppy. we're protecting germany. we're protecting france. we're protecting everybody. yet, we're paying a lot of money to protect. germany is totally controlled by russia. montenegro is a tiny country. >> -- you called member countries in the past delinquents for not meeting the 2% standard. where would you put canada in that? >> they're delinquent. one of the presidents of a big country said, well, sir, if we don't pay and we're attacked by russia, will you protect us? i said, you didn't pay? you're delinquent? he said, yes. let's say that happened. no, i would not protect you. in fact, i would encourage them to do whatever thehell they want. you have to pay.

you have to pay your bill. >> there you have, of course, donald trump lying about a conversation that didn't exist again, just so he could open the door, as he has been doing for years, but just so he can open the door to aligning himself even more closely with vladimir putin in 2024. in 2025 if he wins the election. it's just like he said, he can assassinate political rivals. he can execute generals that are insufficiently loyal. he can terminate the constitution. he can be a dictator from day one. he can do all of these things. he's warning us. he's telling us what he is going to do. and the most frightening part of this, the most challenging part of this is the republican party going along with it. when donald trump compared himself to navalny, there were actually republicans, national

figures in the republican party that joined along. one of them, newt gingrich, in this "wall street journal" op-ed by gerard baker, writes this. when newt gingrich compared biden to putin, which is just like 2015 on our show when you had trump comparing obama to putin, but said putin was a stronger and better leader. "need i say this," writes jerry baker, "mr. biden isn't vladimir putin. he doesn't invade neighbors on a false pretext, killing indiscriminately. he doesn't make people fallen from disfavor fall from tall buildings. he doesn't throw a foreign journalist in jail for reporting the truth about what is going on in his country. he doesn't arrange the murder of his domestic political opponents on the soil of other countries.

and he doesn't imprison, torture, and preside over the death by sudden death, those of in quotes, of his principal domestic remnick, this is the k line, "if you can't see the difference, i say respectfully that you have lost or discarded your capacity for moral reason. that is an even bigger problem." let's bring in "the new yorker"'s david remnick and staff writer at "the atlantic" anne applebaum. eugene robinson of "the washington post" is back withre problem. we have trump. from 2017 to 2021, you had republicans at least in the senate of the house that would pass strong legislation, anti-putin legislation. no more. they have collapsed. now, they really have folded

into trump's, sort of, admirations of vladimir putin. >> well, i think it is important to recognize what's been lost here. a real sense of a russian future for millions of russians. this is as if south african regime had killed mandela in jail. imagine the repercussions of that for the south african future. imagine if havel had been killed in jail. bad enough he was jailed in the first place, but imagine what it would have meant to the czech future. this is a catastrophe, first and foremost, for the navalny family, but for the world, but for the stability of things, for the possibility of any kind of future or liberty in russia. the consequences are enormous. unfortunately, what's not

surprising is that donald trump is a moral vacuum in a suit. the fact that he couldn't bestir himself to show any symphony to the -- symphony to the navalny family, or make a statement of any moral bearing at all, is not a surprise. he is leading in the presidential polls. what will bestir the american public to recognize the moral vacuum of trump, whether it's with navalny or russia or insurrection or his economic crimes or his sexual assault, and on and on and on. this is the country we live in, where donald trump is in the lead. it is a moment of horrible peril. >> in existed logic, donald trump has painted himself as the alexei navalny, a victim, somehow, of the regime. your piece is titled, "why russia killed navalny." you write, quote, "navalny could take the numbers and statistics that usually bog down even the

best financial journalists and make them entertaining. he seemed real to other ordinary russians. he told stories that had relevance to their lives. putin killed him because of his political reach, because of telling the truth, and for his talent of breaking through the propaganda that blinds countrymen and some of ours, as well. even behind bars, navalny was a threat to putin because he was living proof that courage is possible. now, putin will be forced to fight against navalny's memory, and that is a battle he will never win." anne, let me ask you, what was lost, not just to russia, but to the world with the death of alexei navalny? >> you know, let me answer that by connecting something from one of your previous segments to this one. you were talking earlier about people being exhausted fighting trump and finding it so tiring, you know, the same lies over and over again, this torrent of falsehoods, feeling like you're doing the same thing over and

over again. that's how a lot of russians feel. they feel that way because the russian regime creates that kind of propaganda. it deliberately puts out tons of lies, hundreds of them every day. since navalny's death, you're seeing rumors, you know, that the cia killed him, as if the cia could reach a prison in the arctic circle. he died of the covid vaccine. they've hidden his body. they haven't given it to his mother. all of that is designed to make people feel exhausted. i can't do anything. i don't know what's true. i can't change anything. i give up. what navalny did by going back to russia, even though he knew he'd be imprisoned, is say, i will not give up. i am brave. i am showing you what civic courage looks like. that's really the importance of navalny. more even than anything in particular he said or wrote, he modelled civic courage. you know, in a way, he should be a symbol for americans, too.

>> he should. >> you know, it is so interesting. anne is so right. >> yeah. >> the sense of exhaustion is deliberate. whether you're talking about putin's russia, whether you're talking about -- >> the confusion. >> -- what happened in nazi germany, whether you're talking about what's happening with donald trump. i hear it from friends and people i've known for a long time, where they'll come at me with conspiracy theories. i'll say, wait a second, that's not right. i said, have you -- did you see what "the wall street journal" wrote? i'll deliberately go to a murdoch paper. did you see? oh, i don't follow he the nuz t anymore, joe. it's so exhausting. that's the exhaustion factor. gene robinson, i'll ask, i'll say, yet, you're quoting for me information, disinformation from a chinese religious cult that is the front of "epic times."

i say, so you will quote -- >> "epic times." >> -- chinese religious cults. >> i know. >> but you're too exhausted to read reporting in the "wall street journal" or in the "associated." forget "the new york times." forget "morning joe." read the "ap, "read "reuters," or "the wall street journal" if you'd like. oh, i'm too exhausted, but i'll read bullshit on facebook, and i'll read a chinese religious cult's website that is a front for them to gain new cult members. >> yeah, this is one of the truths of the information age that we, frankly, haven't figured out yet, which is that it is just as easy for the chinese cult to reach people as it is for "the washington post" to reach people.

the bar to sort of entry is so low now. you set up a website, and you can make that kind of noise and you can reach a lot of people with your lies. we need to figure that out if we're going to have a democracy, if we're going to have a society and a world that makes sense. i had a question for david remnick. just because you know russia so well, putin does have an election coming up. i believe it's next month now, which, you know, is going to give him another long stretch in office. of course, he's going to win. i wondered if the killing of navalny, and i do assume that putin killed him, had anything to do with that. if the timing of it had anything to do with that. he just wanted to clear the

decks before the election, didn't want any trouble out there. that would sort of hint that maybe he is worried there might be something going on under the surface, that too many people still listening to navalny. what do you think about that? >> well, you know, the system put up a kind of fake, quote, unquote, liberal candidate, and he started to get a little too much support for comfort. immediately, he was removed from the ballot. putin can't have any opposition whatsoever. things have to be 100% safe for him. he fears more than anything in this world what's called a color revolution, like what happened in eastern europe or in georgia or, of course, ukraine. he fears that most of all. and who put that fear in him is partly alexei navalny in 2012, during those huge demonstrations. that was very threatening to putin. but i think we don't know what

killed navalny, the immediate cause of death. whether it was just the horrendous wear and tear of the torture of being in the gulag, which anne has written about so well historically, or whether there was an immediate cause, whether they used novichok again or killed him in another, more immediate way. the reason the russian authorities want to hold on to the body for two weeks is the possibility that he may have been poisoned again and they want the poison to flush out of him. we don't know. what we do know is that putin feels so emboldened by the direction of the war in ukraine, by the chaos in the west, that he feels he can act with immunity. after all, he's facing donald trump who allows that, encourages that. >> donald trump allows it, encourages it. mike johnson, speaker of the house, allows it, encourages it.

>> and many more. >> and what is happening in russia is happening because of those two people. what is happening in ukraine is because of those two people. donald trump spews anti-american hatred. mike johnson goes along with it. trump talks about what a terrible country this is. he does it repeatedly. he's done it for years. anne applebaum, we talk about what may have been the cause of navalny's death. when you're talking about how he was able to connect with people and how that terrified vladimir putin, i think of the last video i saw of him. he was sitting there, again, receiving more bad news from the judge, and i noticed at the end of the tape, he was there smiling the entire time. actually, at the end, made a joke that had the prosecutor and both of the judges smiling. then it cut back to him. i just sat there wondering, i wonder if vladimir putin sees

that he's such a threat, that even in the gulag, he is able to connect with the prosecutors and the judge whose job it is to kill him slowly, slowly, slowly. >> yeah, i think there's something to that. you know, again, he knowingly made himself into a symbol. he said, i'm going to dedicate my life to showing people that you can make fun of the authorities. you can laugh at the authorities. you can tell the truth about the authorities. you can build a movement against the authorities, which he did do successfully. he's actually the only person who did successfully build. he had at one point a national movement with offices around the country. that symbolically was a threat to putin. of course, his wife has now said she will take on that mantle, which is a fascinating development. she's not somebody who ever wanted to be in public before. she didn't have a public role in his movement or in his, you

know, public presence. she always stayed behind the scenes. of course, she was known to be a supporter of what he did. now, she's come out and said, i will keep pushing this forward. i will do it. what's interesting is the video she made this week expolice s ly explicitly said, this is about bravery. i'm going to be brave. you can be brave, too. that's a message that when you're overwhelmed by an authoritarian regime, when you're overwhelmed by propaganda, is the only one we're hearing. >> incredible. former president donald trump drew more attention yesterday to his relationship with hungary's prime minister, viktor orban, sharing this video on his social media platform. it features a clip from orban's state of the nation address this past weekend, where he's heard expressing his desire for trump to be re-elected this fall. trump has brought up orban on

the campaign trail multiple times in recent months. in october, he mistakenly referred to orban as the leader of turkey while praising him. last month, he joined support for orban's strongman approach to domestic affairs. orban is also no stranger to meddling in international affairs. this winter, he stood in the way of the aid deal for ukraine before eventually backing down. right now, he is holding up sweden's succession to nato. orban has said hungary could ratify sweden's application to join at the end of the month. all of this comes as thousands took to the streets to protect in budapest on friday, calling for a change to orban's system of governance in the wake of the country's president resigning over a pardon she issued in a child sexual abuse case.

these are trump's friends. >> anne, you've written an extraordinarily important book that draws a line from donald trump to viktor orban to vladimir putin. explain the nexus between those leaders and the dangers it poses for american democracy. >> so those are all three leaders who believe in rule by law, not rule of law. in other words, the law is what i say it should be, not what judges say, not what the constitution says. to a differing degree, you know, they've all sought to capture the state. putin has done it completely. orban has done it, i'd say, 80%. he's stuffed the courts with his judges. he's destroyed most of the media. you know, the united states is a bigger and more complicated country, and trump hasn't succeeded in, you know, destroying these kinds of institutions the way putin and orban have, but there's no doubt he would like to try.

there's also no doubt that he's already instrumentalizing, using a part of his party to do that. really, if you step back and think about it, the fact that a minority in the house of representatives in the united states is blocking the will of the majority, a majority in congress and a majority in the country, is refuing to send weapons to ukraine, weapons that are made in this country and most of the money, i should say, will stay in this country, you know, we're transferring help to them to defend themselves against russia's kinetic war. the fact that trump is able to do that while out of office means that something is already pretty broken. >> yeah. >> were he to be president, we would see more institutions breaking the way they have in hungary and russia. >> david, joe biden, of course, comes on the exact opposite end of this. he has spent his time in office trying to restore alliances. he's rallied the world to help

ukraine against russia, although right now, it is the united states, it looks like, that may fall short of its commitment. we heard from him in recent days, call trump's comments encouraging russia to invade nato nations, he called them un-american. certainly, he has been sharply critical of putin here over navalny's death. this is an election year. what would your recommendations be to president biden to kind of keep these issues front and center? do you think they'll matter to voters between now and november? >> i'm not sure i should be recommending anything. i do think that by putting this issue front and forward, as you say, is essential to his campaign. we also have to point out that the propaganda machine is relentless. if you go on social media and you punch in navalny, and you look at what's there, thinking it is going to be all tributes to navalny and hope for democracy international, in

russia, or wherever, you'll be sadly mistaken. joe biden, like any politician, has to face the propaganda machine coming out of russia, coming out of the far right in the united states, and it's brutal. i think it's very, very confusing for a lot of people. >> all right. "the new yorker"'s david remnick and "the atlantic's" anne applebaum, thank you for coming on this morning. "the washington post"'s eugene robinson, thank you, as well. ahead on "morning joe," this coming saturday marks the second anniversary of russia's full-scale invasion of ukraine. we'll be joined by a woman who was forced to flee her home and is now helping other ukrainian refugees in poland. plus, president biden's re-election campaign announces a huge january fundraising haul. we'll talk to a top campaign adviser about the state of the race ahead on "morning joe." we'll be right back.

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full-scale invasion of ukraine. the largest ground war in europe since world war ii triggered one of the largest refugee crises, as well, with tens of thousands of ukrainians seeking shelter in nearby countries. really millions. according to the u.n. center for refugees, over million ukrainians have fled the country in total since russia's invasion. the majority heading to nearby poland. joining us now is the daria, a ukrainian refugee who works as the education and emergencies manager for the humanitarian international agency care, providing support for refugees in poland since russia's invasion of ukraine. it really was and, daria, an

incredible scene over the course of three, four, five months since the war began, to see millions of ukrainians just pour into poland. my brother, who is serving as ambassador there, would tell me the most incredible stories of pols opening their homes to these refugees, just without thought, without a second thought, just to take them in. but the question i have for you is, what has the effort been to relocate these people, to establish them in a new life, and two years later, what is the state of ukrainian refugees in poland? >> so you are absolutely right. people came, and polish society, polish people, they opened their hearts, their homes. they were so hospitable. they've shown generosity toward ukrainian refugees. mainly, they're women with

children. of course, now, after two years, people's needs are still there. they have changed, but what we do now here, we see that ukrainian children, ukrainian my need stability, support. they need this feeling of settling in a new place. probably for some people, they might not return. some people have lost their homes. some people have lost not just homes but their whole city, the whole infrastructure. there is nowhere to return. there are no schools, no work. nowhere in the moment at least. for the people, the children especially, we are trying to support them in education sector. we hope to integrate and to support them in their integration into the polish education system. unfortunately, there are more children out of school than in

school in the polish system. this is upsetting. this is something very striking. for ukrainian children, we are now at risk of -- we are facing the risk to the generation if we don't support and provide education for the children. we might not have a future. future professors, future writers, future scientists. this is where we think it's the most important, to provide the support to new generation, to young people, to young future of our country, my country of ukraine. >> a couple of questions. one, they cross the border. they actually crossed a border, many of these refugees, from ukraine into poland, through a town where my father was born. then they were moved throughout poland. my question is, what are the numbers now? have others moved to other

countries, or are they making their new life in poland? what are the challenges? >> so some people, of course, they view poland as a transit zone to move to another place. >> right. >> but many people i talk to, they choose to stay in poland. poland is the closest neighboring country, so for many, it's the chance to go back to visit their families. like me, my grandma and my dad, they stayed in ukraine. they decided to not go, so it is very important for regular people to have this opportunity, to just sit on the train and go back home and then return. also, you're absolutely right, for many ukrainians, poland has become a second home. at the beginning of the war, the challenges were different. people were just coming, and they didn't know what to do. they needed basic support, some food, water, shelter to sleep

in, and think what to do next. now, those who have stayed, they are settling in. they are building their new lives here. it doesn't mean that they don't need support. people who have come two years ago, even those who stayed, they've spent their savings. economically, they need more support than two years ago. the same with children. they have moved from their homes, within a few hours sometimes, and living here, adjusting to a new life, making new friends. it is also where we try to support them with psychological support, with some classes, where they can learn simple polish and fill in the gaps in knowledge, so they feel equal to polish kids. they can go to school and feel free, and they can feel welcome.

also, they will have the same knowledge. they don't have this knowledge barrier. they have a brighter future. i was just yesterday in another city where i was with teenage children a part of our program. one said the program is the best thing that's happened to him over the two years. he was alone in a new city. he didn't speak polish, didn't have friends. now, he comes to the classes. he learns about it, and he's met, the most important, his friends. he feels safe in this new place, in this new country where, now, it's his home. >> education and emergency manager for care poland, it is an incredible story, really, daria, thank you very much for coming on the show this morning. coming up, how to communicate more effectively amid major polarization.

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live picture of the white house. 7:44 in the morning. in this era of political polarization, aided by technology that has reshaped what it means to connect, our next guest is offering solutions to help people improve their ability to communicate. in the new book, "super communicators," how to unlock the secret language of connection, charles duhigg explores how the best communicators among us with bond deeply with others, even in difficult circumstances. charles joins us now. great to have you. congratulations on the book. >> thank you. >> we should have recorded the conversation we had in the break and posted that, and we could have had breakfast together. let's talk first about, let's

define what a super communicator is first. people get a sense of where we're starting. >> most people have a super communicator in their life. if i was to ask you if you had a bad day and you needed to call someone who would make you feel better, does someone pop into your head? for you, that person is a super communicator. you probably are a super communicator back to them. what is interesting, there are some people who can do this more consistently, who can seem to connect with almost anyone. in the last decade, researchers started studying them. what we discovered is it's a set of skills, not charisma, not extroversion, but it's a set of skills anyone can learn that allow us to connect with anyone we want to. >> that is an important part. people probably think, well, there is a kind of person who is a super communicator. i'm not that person and will never be that person. what are some of the things people can do to at least begin to get there? >> absolutely. we're living through the golden age of understanding the neurology of communication because of advances in imaging and data collection. people who are consistent super

communicators tend to ask a lot of questions, 10 to 20 as many as the average person. some questions are special. they're deep questions. they're questions like, instead of saying, oh, where do you practice law? saying, what made you decide to go to law school? what do you love about your job? those are questions that are easy to ask, but they're deep because they pull out these aspects of who we are. super communicators are also good at proving their listening. in the book, there is a story about this experiment. they brought together gun rights advocates and gun control activists. normally people who hate each other and scream at each other. just by teaching them one simple technique, to repeat what somebody said, to ask if they got it right, they brought down all the conflict by 90%. once we believe someone is listening to us instead of waiting for their turn to speak, that's when we trust them and feel close. >> jen, we've established you and i are super communicators. in the break, you were talking about exactly what charles said, which is showing a little

empathy, a little curiosity, and genuine listening to the person you're speaking with. >> yes. i went through it, you have -- you identify three types of conversations. practical, what this is about. emotional, how do we feel. social, and who are we? i was saying, when i go to trump rallies, i find i want to ask a deep question. i wasn't realizing i was doing all the things you said, but i want to ask them a deep question about, well, what first drew you to president trump? also, i say, you know, look, let me tell you something, i work in media now, but i worked for hillary clinton. i worked for hillary clinton, barack obama, you know my secrets. tell me. i want to learn, tell me what you -- and i'm shocked at how quickly the defenses fall. >> absolutely. what you're engaging there is what's known in psychology as reciprocal vulnerability, and it is powerful. one of the chapters in the book is about this cia officer, jim

lawler. when he was hired to recruit overseas spies, he was terrible at it. he was almost deported multiple times, about torre fireto be fi then he started being honest with people. he'd tell people about his own insecurities, that he was about to be fired and he was bad at his job. that's when people listened to him and agreed to work with him. the vulnerability feels good, to make the connection. >> do you think part of the political divisions that exist now are because we're not communicating, or these skills could apply on a larger scale? if you use them in your own life, you can bridge divisions? >> absolutely. we used to teach communication in schools. it ute edused to be a part curriculum. as schools became more technical, it fell out. our brains evolve to be good at communication. communication is homo sapien's superpower. we're ready to have the

instincts. you have to be reminded of the skills to let the instincts come out. that's what the book does, is tells you the skills that allow anyone to be a super communicator. the right conversation at the right moment can change everything. >> charles, how does social media factor into all of this? that strips away a lot of what we're doing here, which is looking you in the eye and really listening to you. instead of talking at people or posting something or being performative in some way and making up emotions and making up the empathy. how does that change this idea of supercommunicating? >> it is at a great question, and there's different rules for different communication. in this conversation we're having right now, though we're not aware of it, our eyes started to different rules for different kinds of communication. in this conversation we are having right now, even though we are not aware of it, our eyes have start started to dilate at the same rates, our breathing patterns are matching each other. we are becoming what's known as

neur alley aligned. when you are online and screaming at someone, you are not going to get aligned with them, right? the key is asking questions, admitting your own ignorance, repeating back what someone said order to show that you are listening. when you talk to your friends online, you probably do that, right. you probably try to show each other that you want to connect. as long as it's easier to scream than it is to connect, we are probably going to have problems. everyone can make this chase for themselves. >> which makes the case you have to work harder than ever to perfect some of these techniques to become a supercommunicaters because it's easier to fall into social media screaming at people. >> absolutely. charles, does this apply to the polarization that we are seeing out there, because, like you said, the right conversation can really have an impact, make a change. and i love that you say you want

to show people that you heard what they are saying. it's another form, i think, of validation, which is really important. having said that, if we could roll play a little bit and you could help us figure out how to handle a conversation like this where you are talking to someone and they say, the election was stolen. january 6th wasn't a big deal. you need to relax. it wasn't an insurrection. it's all biden's fault that the border wasn't closed. by the way, it's the biden crime family that's the problem here. >> it's a fantastic question. thank you for asking it because the wrong -- wharjts would be the response to that? >> the wrong thing is to say you're wrong. let me show you all the facts to disprove that. the right thing is to say tell me why this matters to you. let's get to something deeper, ask a deeper question. you seem really upset about what's going on in politics. why now? why are you so upset? what does this mean to you? what that person will say, they

won't give you more proof on the biden crime syndicate. they will say i am angry because i feel like i had a great job and i don't anymore and something has happened that lost my way. once you are having that conversation, then you are talking about things that both of you understand, both of you believe in. we are all experts in ourselves. that's when you can say i don't have to agree with you about biden. i can say you deserve the right job. now we trust each other and are ready to talk. >> a little trust. >> yeah. in the book charles writes this. for many of us conversations can sometimes seem bewildering, stressful, even terrifying. the single biggest problem with communication is the illusion it has taken place. learning to have meaningful conversations is in some ways more urgent than ever before. it's no secret the world has become increasingly polarized, we struggle to hear and be

heard. if we can't resolve every disagreement, find wis to hear one another and say what is needed, we can co-exist and drive because the right conversation at the right moment can change everything. words to live by in the new book, supercommunicaters, how to unlock the secret language of connection available today, "new york times" best-selling author, charles, thank you for opening up this conversation. >> thank you for having me. still ahead, president biden and his administration considering additional sanctions against moscow in the wake of alexei navalny's death. we will talk to the former u.s. ambassador to russia michael mcfaul. and richard engle reports from eastern ukraine as the country awaits critical aid from the united states, still stalled in congress. "morning joe's" coming right back. jardiance! ♪ ♪ it's a little pill with a big story to tell ♪ ♪ i take once-daily jardiance ♪ ♪ at each day's start! ♪

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the response to the first show last monday was universally glowing. >> jon stewart facing backlash from democrats about his comments over joe biden. after nine years away, there is nothing else to say to the fraud jon stewart bashing biden except make it another nine years. i won't be watching you either. >> okay. maybe not universal. but that was on twitter. everything on twitter gets backlash. i have seen twitter tell labradoodles to [ bleep ] themselves. >> jon stewart last night joking about how not everyone is thrilled he is back at "the

daily show." a lot to get to this morning. that was good. >> labradoodles. >> donald trump making the death of russia's opposition leader all about himself and trump's resistance to condemn vladimir putin has him isolated from even far right republicans. >> well, there is, willie, it's just extraordinary. we are going to be reading quite a few op-eds from people who are -- the conservatives' stiffs, some reactions, not just navalny, also to what is happening in nato where you have everybody from gerard baker to mark lavin saying, what are you people doing? do you know what the stakes are here? not just in the navalny death. you know, this grotesque comparison -- talk about big lies. grotesque comparison, people like newt gingrich comparing joe

biden to vladimir putin. it is a rewind like eight years, however long ago it was, when donald trump came on our program and said, oh, basically, putin's not bad, we kill people, too, joe. and, of course, gerard baker, the emeritus op-ed editor for "the wall street journal" tears that argument to shreds. he is no fan of joe biden. but you have that. and then even bigger than that, my god, lindsey graham, and other republicans, willing, especially mike johnson, willing to turn ukraine central and western europe over to vladimir putin. >> yeah, it's pretty stunning. in fact, speaker johnson was at mar-a-lago over the last couple of days running around the cabanas and taking care of donald trump and showing he stands with him. but, you know, this is one of those very, very rare moments

where you are seeing some dissent in the republican party with donald trump. his hardcore supporters and many of those members of the house, of course, do whatever he says and will be with him all the way. in the senate and some of those media figures that always take care of donald trump, you are hearing their voices on this question saying, donald trump, you have got it wrong. his response to the death of alexei navalny not helping either. >> grotesque. the whole thing is grotesque. >> nancy pelosi has the question spot on. meanwhile, president biden is considering new action against russia in response to alexei navalny's death. we'll go through his possible options. also, israel is giving hamas an ultimatum on the remaining hostages. free them by ramadan or face an all-out offensive in a city packed with palestinian refugees. we will have more on that major development along with joe, willie, and me, we have the host

of "way too early," jonathan lemire and pulitzer prize-winning columnist at "the washington post," eugene robinson. so three days after alexei navalny died in a siberian prison, donald trump finally addressed the tragedy yesterday and made it about himself. in a social media post the likely 2024 republican presidential nominee compared navalny's death to his own situation, writing in part, quote, the sudden death of alexei navalny has made me more and more aware of what is happening in our country, we are a nation in decline, a failing nation, maga 2024. so he made it about himself and his campaign. notably absent from trump's message were any condolences to

navalny's family and no condemnation of the man most believed to be responsible for his death, and that would be, of course, russian president vladimir putin. a lot to get to on this. there has been a lot of reaction to donald trump on this, and not everybody is falling in line. i think it's almost -- it's a little bit jarring to hear him talk this way. i have hope it is. >> it is jarring. we are actually seeing a continued part of a process. process began in 2015 when donald trump, there was something wrong. donald trump with would come on our show. he'd go on other shows. you know, he'd talk to billow reilly. it was a defense of vladimir putin. it was this love of vladimir putin. and this fear, this absolute fear of ever crossing him and led him in 2015 to say that vladimir putin was a strong leader, a great leader, that when i brought up that he killed

journalists and political opponents -- >> he shrugged. >> said we kill people, too, joe. and he continued doing that. we have seen now -- it's hard to believe, but we've seen now other members of the republican party ate that line and there is -- there is right now a connection, donald trump, viktor orban in hungary, an anti-west thug, that runs hungary, and vladimir putin. and you have seen the trump right move in that direction, and it is just absolutely frightening and jarring and unlike anything we have seen in domestic politics that major figures are now going to the side that, well, people who consider america enemies. and "the wall street journal" editor at large gerard baker wrote about this, this morning, in a piece titled the moral

blindness of putin's apologists on the right. the only response of all decent people to the death of alexei navalny, the brave critic of vladimir putin's regime, in a siberian prison camp is grief, disgust, unqualified condemnation. it's a sort of event that defines the malevolent nature of mr. putin's russia. that decency was above the moral reach of the prominent leaders of what used to be the conservative movement. newt gingrich saw a parallel many others highlighted. navalny's, quote, death in prison is a brutal reminder that jailing your political opponents is inhumane and every violation of a free society. mr. biden isn't vladimir putin. mr. biden doesn't invat -- newt compared vladimir putin to joe biden. which is just so grotesque.

i keep waiting for newt to grow out of this. i really do. i really do. and he just -- he is incapable -- he compares biden to vladimir putin, to which gerard baker writes, mr. biden isn't vladimir putin. mr. biden doesn't invade neighbors on a false pretext, killing indiscriminal neptly. he doesn't make people nallen in disfavor fall from the windows of tall buildings, has he, newt? has he, newt? are why do you keep lying for donald trump? baker goes on. if you can't see the difference, then i say respectfully that if you lost -- you have lost our discarded your capacity for moral reasoning. let me continue. jonah goldberg, conservative columnist for "the l.a. times," wrote this. no, donald trump does not equal alexei navalny. he writes in part this.

for numerous right-wing republican figures, the real lesson of navalny's killing is the navalny equals trump. trump himself invoked the comparison on social media. his first mention of navalny's name wasn't to condemn his death or putin's role in it, but to cast himself as an american navalny. >> oh, god. >> condemning such false moral equivalence was once central to american conservatism. trump is not an innocent anti-corruption crusader, brutalized and murdered for championing democracy and the rule of law. in fact, he does the opposite. there are ample plausible criticisms of the legal cases against trump. even if you agree with all of them, i don't, the notion that joe biden is the moral equivalent of vladimir putin a slander. not merely of biden, but of america itself. and why am i so angry? why am i so angry about this?

because these are attacks on america. these aren't just attacks on joe biden. this is an attack on america that we have a he even donald trump participating in since he came on our show in december of 2015 that american leaders were just as bad as vladimir putin, who openly kills opponents. goldberg says, indeed, one reason we know it's not true, publicly criticizing putin's treatment of navalny can land you in a russian cell. criticizing biden's alleged treatment of trump can land you in a fox news studio. gene robinson. >> yeah, incredible. >> there are few words. you have these freaks, weirdos, insurrectionists, radicals on the far, far right. they are not even the right now. they are in the trump -- the

trump death cult of -- death cult for american democracy. and to make those comparisons are so grotesque, to compare america to russia is so grotesque, to compare trump to navalny, trump, who flies around in a 757, who lives in a golden skyscraper, who lives in mar-a-lago, where you have navalny dead, poisoned in a penal colony. all of this is so grotesque. and what is so shocking is this isn't one freak legislator, right-wing freak legislator from louisiana or iowa. this is the next republican nominee for president of the united states in 2024 and republicans are falling in line and they are saying, the hell with america. we will trash america. we'll say it's just like russia.

just like trump's been doing since 2015. just to elect this con artist who wants to undermine america's rule of law and american democracy. >> yeah. you have to assume, actually, that that tweet or statement by donald trump is the new maga party line on navalny. it is just incredible. note that he refers to the sudden death of alexei navalny as if, you know, he had, you know, tripped down a staircase in his house or something like that. no. he was sent to a siberian prison camp to die, to be killed, probably to be poisoned. who knows? but he is dead, like anybody who opposes vladimir putin. trump mentions, of course, unfair courtroom decisions. still smarting from all the court judgments and rulings against him last week.

and so, two things. first of all, you know, you have mike johnson, the speaker of the house, third ranking official in the united states government, down there bending the knee to donald trump. this is serious. this is really serious. and you have the republican party essentially turning its back at least the people who are running the republican party turning their back on nato at a time when vladimir putin is making gains in ukraine, refusing to authorize new funds, military aid for ukraine so it can fight back. talk to europeans. very clearly and alarmingly putting the security of europe and the world in danger, and

this is what the republican party is going with. this is what they believe now. it's just appalling. >> and by the way, jonathan lemire, as we look at that picture from mar-a-lago last night, if you had any doubt who is running the congress, the house of representatives, there is your answer there. speaker johnson seeing trump down there. the other side of this, the president of the united states, obviously, quickly and strongly condemned vladimir putin for the death of alexei navalny a couple of days ago. how is the white house, how is the biden campaign handling this issue now with donald trump so far out on the other side? >> well, the biden campaign account took that post of johnson and trump and captioned it the speaker of the house meets with mike johnson, which is making it clear who they think runs the show, and that is donald trump. and certainly as some republicans gathered in the security conference over the weekend, that is where many american lawmakers, the vice president was there as well, when they learned of navalny's

death and navalny's widow powerfully spoke, you know, mike johnson was at mar-a-lago. lindsey graham was at the border. they are taking orders from donald trump, going where he says they go. the biden campaign is trying to seize on this. we heard from the president in the hours after navalny's death, the way to stand up to putin to make him pay for what did to navalny, what he did in ukraine, pats supplement to arm ukraine. soldiers losing battles, running out of ammunition anything. we have to then them. there is hope among republicans in the senate and lots of democrats that that could happen. maybe navalny's death will be a galvanizing factor. it's unclear the votes are there. certainly unclear whether speaker johnson will be moved. we heard from president biden yesterday address reporters and he said that, yes, he would like that to happen but he is not sure there will be any movement. so short of that, the campaign and the white house, willie, will continue to be on the offensive in terms of driving

home, you know, president trump's refusal to criticize vladimir putin, threats to up end nato, encouragement for russia to invade nato countries. he has deemed them un-american. there is a limit to what the white house can do if the house won't cooperate. >> you mentioned that aid stalled in the congress. what are the real world implications of that? on the ground in ukraine, russian forces captured a key city in the eastern part of ukraine marking russia's largest gain on the battlefield in nine months as ukraine's military faces a critical shortage of ammunition. joining us from eastern ukraine is nbc news chief foreign correspondent richard engle. what's the latest there? >> reporter: i was talking to soldiers out here in eastern ukraine a few minutes ago, and they were telling me that the shortages of ammunition are now so extreme that they are counting bullets.

they are rationing their artillery rounds, rationing their regular ammunition they put into their rifles. they still have enough drones because they have a local manufacturing base they are using, in some cases, 3-d printers to make drones. but they are not in a position right now to launch any new offensives and not in a position to hold the russian -- hold the line. we saw the loss out in eastern ukraine over the weekend, and that was a terrible blow for the ukrainian military because ukrainian military had been holding on to this small city for many years, had been contested in that area. as they were overwhelmed, outgunned, the government decided that holding it simply wasn't worth it. as we've seen on the other side, as we have seen with the

russians, once you start losing territory and once you start having to go on the back foot and retreat, you can lose territory quite quickly. it can cleave off a little bit like glaciers off the side of a mountain. it doesn't necessarily just go one little town and stop. so right now you have a situation where ukrainian forces out here in the east are in retreat and the concern is can they stop that. can they stop this wound before it spreads and they lose a significant amount of territory and the way they do that, soldiers here tell me the only way to do that is to urgently get more weapons, more supplies, particularly from the united states. we have heard that time and time again. but we are seeing it now out here the east. it's not theoretical anymore. >> it's being felt. president zelenskyy desperately asking the united states and the congress goat some aid.

a nuclear power plant, zaporizhzhia, the largest nuclear power plant in europe, what are the new concerns there? >> reporter: so, major concerns. i am not sure if you saw the story we had on "nightly news" last night. it was about the zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant. so the zaporizhzhia plant, the biggest nuclear power plant in europe, has six uranium reactors. the plant was taken over in the early weeks of the war by russian forces. russian forces captured the plant, took over the facility, captured the personnel inside, and ukrainian forces were able to hold the opposite bank of the dnipro river. the plant is on the front line with ukrainian forces on one side of the river and russian forces on the other side of the river. and the iaea, i spoke to the director general, is deeply

concerned about this facility. one, because it's right on the front line. two, the knock-on effect of the war is having a tremendous impact on the plant. now, the plant is in a semi shutdown state right now. so it is in a kind of a safe mode. but still requiring outside electricity. there are four electrical lines leading into the plant and ukrainian officials, including the former director of the plant, told me that three of those four external power lines, which are essential for cooling and keeping the reactors stable, are not working and the fourth, the final line, is faulty. so there have been eight blackouts at this plant recent lie, the last one a few months ago in december. the iaea considers it the most dangerous nuke long-range facility in the world. ukrainians describe it as a

ticking time bomb. it there were to be another blackout and the december the generators don't kick in, then you could get a moultdown along the lines of fukushima, contaminating large parts of ukraine and beyond and spreading out into the region, contaminating crops, livestock, potentially killing and making people, tens of thousands of people either sick or killing them directly. >> critical situation. nbc's richard engle, great reporting from eastern ukraine this morning. richard, thank you. richard said something. this is no longer theoretical. all of these months of holding up this aid in the united states congress is showing itself now on the battlefield and as richard said, ukraine is in retreat in places it held, that it had captured. europe is doing its part. this morning sweden passed through 682 million more dollars. they are trying to make up and fill that hole left by the

united states. but the situation is critical. >> same thing happening from japan. other american allies are stepping forward. you know, the hypocrisy of these trumpers who always bitch and moan about other countries not doing their part, right now it's donald trump and mike johnson who are aiding and assisting, right now those two people are vladimir putin's best friends, not only in the united states, but across the world, because those two people, those two people are what stands between congress passing aid and not passing aid to help the ukrainian people push back on a russian invasion that's just unleashed one human rights violation after another.

this is -- you know, willie, you said this before. people on actually all sides of the idealogical spectrum trying to push back against the madness, this pro-putin madness of donald trump and mike johnson. here is mark lavin, very popular -- very conservative radio host who doesn't agree with what we say often. but mark wrote this. russia is gaining on ukraine, which is running out of certain crucial weaponry and having to pull back from areas it had controlled, and faces losing the war russia started. is that okay with everyone? ukraine is a relatively small country without the capacity for a large industrial economy when which it can build the needed weapons. this, as you were just saying, willie, is not theoretical. this is not theoretical. this is reality.

nato countries border ukraine and if putin moves on any of them, then what? he has said in the past he is eying poland, romania, and the balkan states. this is a grave situation. how grave is the situation? it's grave for ukraine. it's grave for freedom in europe. it's grave because we fought a cold war for 42 years from harry truman to jfk to ronald reagan to brzezinski, madeleine albright, colin powell, you name it. republicans and scoop jackson, republicans and sam nunn, republicans and democrats alike dedicated, devoted their lives to freeing the lives of

europeans enslaved by russia, by soviet russia. and here we are. here we are. we have guy who wants to be president again and his pathetic little speaker, who are actually doing vladimir putin's bidding. and gene robinson, in putin, you have someone who has said the greatest tragedy of the 20th century was america's victory in the cold war. the collapse of the soviet union. the collapse of the berlin wall. the freeing of tens of millions of europeans, right? and by the way, ronald reagan, a hero in central and eastern europe, the same reagan that talked about freedom in europe is the same reagan that talks about the importance of

immigration, the same reagan that donald trump does violence to his legacy every single day he opens his mouth. but, gene, there is vladimir putin, victor orkin, who is the one leader in europe, in the eu, that is on russia's side, and then you have donald trump. this is -- we have been warning about it for years, but there is a straight line from trump to orban, who hates the west, to vladimir putin. right now, they are lining up to help with the spread of tyranny. as levin said, this is not theoretical. this is happening right now. >> right, and donald trump has the perfect implement for this in mike johnson, who is consistently voting against

ukraine aid long before he became speaker. so you've got to assume that he's all in on this, right? he's got at some level, he actually supports putin and actually opposes ukraine and its freedom fighters and opposes nato and that's the only conclusion you can draw. and vladimir putin is not just talking about reclaiming the territories that had mode up the soviet union, which clearly he would like to do and how nervous would you be if you were in one of the baltic states right now, for example, watching what is happening in ukraine, in that i hesitate to call it an interview, in that lek tur to tucker carlson he gave the other day, he talked a lot about poland. poland, poland, poland. poland was responsible somehow -- >> he wants to invade it again, gene. he wants to invade poland.

>> exactly. he was fixated on poland. doesn't that -- was anyone listening? does anybody understand what that means? and if they do understand what it means, they are okay with that? it's just -- it's -- it's -- it's crazy, but it's tragic because, as richard engle pointed out, the ukrainians are losing ground now, and that is a terribly precarious situation to be in. you know, at the very least, we should be providing enough aid for them to hold the line. but as it is now, you have to wonder about the capacity -- their capacity to hold on if we don't come in with that aid. and we have weapons that nobody else has that ukraine desperately needs. >> coming up, one of the biden campaign's top advisors, former

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do you believe this is now officially the joe biden bribery allegation and do you believe that you will be able to prove that? jim comer. >> i sure hope so. and i do believe that there is a lot of smoke. where there's smoke, there's fire. >> in hours, a detention hearing

will get underway in federal court in las vegas for the fbi informant indicted on two counts of allegedly lying to the bureau about president biden and his son hunter during the 2020 presidential election. alexander smirnov is facing charges of making a false statement to a government agent and falsification of records in a federal investigation. the 37-page indictment alleges snirnov had been a confidential source for the fbi since 2010 and, quote, provided false, derogatory information to the agency about both bidens after joe biden became a candidate for if the in 2020. he has been critical to the house republicans impeachment inquiry into president biden. >> so here he have, willie, these -- >> it this was their person -- >> these informants that you kept having comer and his chief

counsel arnold the pig straight from green acres fame talking about for some time. you know, again, it's just a joke. one of them, an international fugitive, who smuggles oil, illegal oil from iran to russia or china. i forget what communist or formerly communist country they illegally smuggle oil to. arms dealing. again, a fugitive on the run. that's one of them. now this guy, who has been busted lying to the fbi. of course, some people on other news networks trying to tap dance as fast as they can, trying to blame the justice department for this guy lying through his teeth to them. >> yeah. i mean, this has become a ritual, hasn't it? we just saw mr. comer trots out a witness. this is our star witness. this is the smoking gun. joe biden took $5 million in bribes.

then the witness either goes on the run, i think the guy you mentioned is still on the run, or mr. smirnov, the special counsel, a donald trump appointee, a guy not necessarily friendly to the president of the united states, the current president of the united states, he says that the star witness for this committee was lying about everything he told the committee. so now on fox and other places they have had to run away from this guy. jonathan lemire, we talked about this. people have to understand this committee and other news outlets hung their hat on this man, smirnov. this is it. this is the man who said in testimony that in in fact joe biden took bribes. it wasn't just hunter biden. turned out, according to the trump-appointed prosecutor, who became the special counsel, that it was all made up, it was all a lie. >> yeah, that special counsel hardly a popular person in the biden white house. he brought charges against hunter biden, that led to the

plea deal collapsed, hunter biden likely going to trial later this year. they are no fan of his. >> this is someone who did his job here and realized that this informant was lying and brought charges subsequent to that. republicans though seem to be going full steam ahead, you know. we will see if this measure fizzles out in the weeks ahead. committee hearings on the impeachment inquiry are scheduled. we expect to hear from hunter biden and joe biden's brother, pulled before congress in the weeks ahead. and i think it is not surprising, though pathetic, that there has been zero coverage of this informant's arrest on fox news and other republican-leaning outlets, even though they talked about him so much in the weeks prior. >> there has been coverage. they are twisting it. they are saying this is weaponization of the government. they are silencing him. they are arresting him. i mean, i -- >> the lies continue. i mean, the lies continue.

it's just endless -- it is -- >> the disinformation. >> endless supply of disinformation to protect donald trump. and to go after joe biden. it never stops. you would think after $787 million for lying, you would think at some point, at some point there would be sort of an attempt to get the facts right. there is not. >> none. >> front page of the "new york times" today. you have alexei navalny's widow saying she is going to continue the fight and she asks that opponents share her anger. mika, the same on "the wall street journal's" front page. >> yulia, incredible woman, a mother. in the middle of this agony that her family is facing, stepped into the lime late, taken the mantle really. she is going to continue the

fight. >> she is tough and she is a resolute, isn't she? >> absolutely. and we are going to be talking to ambassador mcfaul who knows her well. they have children here in america. grown children. they've a lot of work to do and need a lot of help. so coming up, is there an anti-trump burnout that's getting in the way of president biden's bid to energize democrat voters ahead. likely 2020 rematch? we will dig into that new reporting from "the new york times." "morning joe" will be right back. "morning joe" will be righ back choosing a treatment for your chronic migraine - 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting 4 hours or more - can be overwhelming.

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dozen democrat voters, activists and officials make clear

president biden's challenge in an energizing americans who are unenthusiastic about likely 2020. they have relied on it for nearly a decade. we are like crisis'd out said a security guard from pittsburgh. democrat pollsters and strategists say no one is more motivating or more terrifying to voters trump. mr. trump's legal problems unfold, mr. trump is hardly a morning in america candidate. while some have tuned him out since he left office, he will be unavoidable in an election year reminding voters of everything they long disliked about him. katy, the author of that piece, good to see you. the exhaustion is understandable. this felt like it's been a decade of every morning waking up to a new crisis or outrage. do you get the sense they are tuned out now and given the stakes of this election they

tune in in october, say? >> certainly the democrats hope and they point to elections as recently as last week, special election on long island, another contest in pennsylvania and they point to those as examples of their voters remaining motivated when there are actual elections. but across the board polling shows that americans are exhausted and unenthused by a biden/trump rematch. the challenge for democrats the last several elections is to galvanize that broad anti-trump coalition to kind of saddle up again at a moment when there are signs of some of those voters feeling fatigue. >> and what do -- when voters -- when they are expressing this sort of kind of fatigue that they have, do they express an acceptance of trump and that

somehow a trump presidency would be -- it's not worth waking up to go and vote because they are feeling that they have sort of absorbed him, or do you think that -- or is there push back, like, eventually yes i will turn out to vote? >> depends on the voter. i didn't speak with any democratic or democratic leading voters that would really consider voting for donald trump. the concern that i hear both -- the concern that i hear from strategists is that -- and other party officials is that people will feel so disillusioned by their choices that perhaps they are not motivated to turn out and vote, which is certainly something that i know democrats broadly are working to counteracts, working to energize now and i think we can anticipate that growing in intensity moving forward. >> joe, as i said, no one could be blamed for being exhausted by our politics now.

nobody could be blamed for that. the fact of the matter is, if you thought 2016 or 2020 was an emergency, my god, look how much worse things could be in 2024. >> all the sirens are blaring. donald trump every day gives you a reason to understand the stakes are so much higher now, whether he is talking about terminating the constitution, whether he is talking about assassinating generals. does this sound familiar? assassinating generals who are disloyal to him, are shooting them for treason or whether he talks about how he has the right, that he is legally protected if he decides, like, putin to assassinate one of his political rivals. he says as president, he should have complete immunity on that. we could go down the list. what i'm finding is, as far as exhaust setting in, i'm finding exhaustion among trump supporters in my family, in my neighborhood, in my old church,

people i grew up who voted for trump in '16, vote ford trump in '20, no apologies, even as trump was calling me a murderer. post-january 6th, post-chaos of the last couple of years, they are the ones i'm talking to who are exhausted. i must say also, and i completely understand the whole thing of being exhausted by trump. i'm exhausted by him every single day. but the fight continues until he is driven off the political stage and the threat to democracy is in the background. but you just look. here's what dave said. the electoral side, invisible, run for something, moms demand action keeps grinding and winning, too. the performative stuff faded but the voters cram into available polling booth. what a wonderful way to say it.

voters -- and i start in 2017 and i think of those women standing in the rain. >> in virginia. >> in virginia. and shocking the political world, not on with their gubernatorial vote, but the assembly. and it's continued one after another whether you're talking about county races in delaware county, pennsylvania, electing democrats for the first time in a century, whether you are talking about democrats winning governorships in louisiana and kentucky. we could go on and on. there has never been anything really quite like this. so, yes, i understand the exhaustion factor. trump exhausts all of us. at the same time. it seems, going back to the long island race last vote is when voters cram into any available polling places in their communities to vote against donald trump. >> yeah. i think you have to protect against people feeling it doesn't matter. i'm exhausted. we're all exhausted.

i feared that voters might become sort of inured to trump if they can't absorb any more of the outrage from him. but that is not what we saw in the long island race. also, i'm a big fan of sarah longwell's focus group with the never trump republican group that says two-time trump voters and they had the same experience that your friends did, joe, where they just decided this time they're too tired, it's too much, it's too hard. the criminal indictments, january 6th, all the stuff piled on top of it and expressed a willingness to not support him this time around. coming up, why americans suddenly stopped hanging out together. a new piece in "the atlantic" tackles the anti-social

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♪ ♪ control is everything to me. ♪ ♪ learn how abbvie could help you save. ♪♪ welcome to the fourth hour of "morning joe." it's 6 a.m. on the west coast, 9 a.m. in the east. we begin this hour with the

fallout from alexei navalny's death. his widow and oppositiondetermi truth of how he died while donald trump is facing more criticism for his refusal to condemn vladimir putin, who is believed to have ordered the killing of his most outspoken critic. >> again, this is nothing new. again, we go back to december 2015 and we press donald trump, who is saying that vladimir putin is a better leader than the leader america had. we press him and we say, but he kills his political opponents. and donald trump says, well, we kill people too. here we are all these years later and he is still covering up for vladimir putin. the question remains, why? >> why is the question.

and if you listen to donald trump's statement, which i guess was at least an acknowledgment that alexei navalny died, he makes himself alexei navalny in the story. he believes he's a victim of the regime here in america. marinate in that for a moment. garrett haake and richard angle are covering the political and international angles of this story for us. >> reporter: with four days to go until the south carolina gop primary, nikki haley is fighting an uphill battle against former president trump on her home turf, arguing republicans will be doomed in november if they hand mr. trump the party's nomination. >> donald trump can't win. everything he touches we lose. how many more times do we have to lose before we say maybe he's the problem? >> reporter: haley is seizing on mr. trump's first public comments about the death of alexei navalny. >> i don't know why he keeps

getting weak in the knees when it comes to russia. >> reporter: trump comparing navalny's sudden death to his own legal problems and making no mention of vladimir putin, widely believed for navalny's death. trump saying he would encourage russia to attack nato allies. haley slamming those comments. >> he sided with a dictator who kills his political opponents. >> reporter: echoed by president biden's campaign in a new digital ad. >> every president since truman has been a rock solid supporter of nato except for donald trump. >> reporter: targeting some 900,000 michigan voters. >> i was appalled.

for someone like a former president of the united states to say something like that is beyond the pale. >> reporter: accusations are growing this morning about the death in prison last week of russian opposition leader alexei navalny. president biden has said president putin is responsible for navalny's death and says the u.s. may impose more penalties on russia. >> we are considering additional sanctions, yes. >> reporter: this morning navalny's mother urging president putin to release her son's body for burial. navalny's widow yulia adding, we will find out exactly how this crime was carried out. a human rights group says russian intelligence officers visited the prison two days before navalny's death to disconnect cameras and listening

devices and that a medical examiner was instructed to list bruises on navalny's body as coming after death. the russian opposition newspaper reports that prisoners were locked in their cells the night before navalny died, followed by a surprise inspection the next morning. nbc news cannot confirm those allegations which were attributed to anonymous sources. across the border, president zelenskyy visited the front lines. much of the east now looks right out of world war ii with ukrainian villages smashed by russian artillery and largely abandoned. at one of the schools we found still operating 10-year-old darya says she's hearing more explosions now than before. "when i go outside, i hear the

explosions coming closer, so it means they are coming closer and closer." >> let's bring in former ambassador to russia michael mcfaul. ambassador mcfaul, thanks for being with us this morning. you spoke so powerfully when the news had just broken about the death of your friend alexei navalny. we approached that story with appropriate skepticism of the events. what more do you know about the death of navalny now just a few days later? >> you just did a great job of reporting it. those are exactly the leads his family and friends are pursuing. we don't need an autopsy to know that putin killed navalny.

doesn't matter how. he tried to poison him and kill him before. he went to germany, got better, went back. putin immediately arrested him and has been torturing him ever since. slowly over the years his conditions were getting worse and worse. the last stop was this horrific jail he was living in. i saw his wife yulia the night before he died and she described in vivid detail the conditions under which he was trying to keep alive. we need to know the facts, and i'm glad people are pushing for that. but there's no ambiguity here. putin killed navalny. as his wife said, he needs to be held accountable for his crimes. >> mr. ambassador, what do you hope that accountability is and what do you hope the administration's response will be? >> well, in the long run i want

him to go to prison and face the consequences, just like his wife does, just like his family does and his colleagues. that's a long-term proposition. in the short-term, it's very clear what can happen and it's really not the administration. it's republican members of congress. i want to underscore, remember, i'm a political science professor here at stanford. i teach about history and democratic breakthroughs. what's clear to me when i study this history is you don't get many chances to be on the right side of history and do the right thing. most of government life is grinding away at incremental stuff and failure. right now speaker johnson has the ability to make history and to do the right thing. when they come back from their holiday, if they put the bill on the floor for $60 billion in new

aid for ukraine, that would be a direct response to the assassination of navalny. conversely, blocking that is a gift to vladimir putin. think about it. you want to be an american today gifting vladimir putin in the weight of this assassination? by the way, i met with many soldiers from ukraine at this conference. he's killing innocent ukrainians every day. they don't have to draft a law. the bill is ready for them. they have the opportunity to do the right thing. i guarantee you they'll feel better about doing that if they do it and they'll feel remorse if they don't, despite whatever happens with mr. trump. >> mr. ambassador, following up on what you're saying, this isn't just any vote. this is a vote that will hang over them for the rest of their lives, that will hang over them

in death. 84 years later we remember what fdr did to keep britain afloat against hitler. we remember 84 years later what charles lindbergh, a man who would have been praised throughout history as a great aviator, but instead we remember 84 years later charles lindbergh's speech talking about how britain could not win, that the america firsters understood we should not help britain against hitler. you see more and more real conservatives are coming out. here's jerry baker the editor at large for the "wall street

journal" editorial page and he talks about the moral blindness of putin apologists. he brings up newt gingrich, who compared joe biden to vladimir putin and the killing of navalny. baker writes, need i say this, mr. biden isn't vladimir putin. mr. biden doesn't invade neighbors on a false pretext killing indiscriminately. he doesn't have people fall from windows in tall buildings. he doesn't have journalists thrown in jail. he doesn't arrange the murder of his domestic opponents. if you can't see the difference, then i say respectfully that you have lost or discarded your capacity for moral reasoning, and that is even a bigger problem and it's happening with people like newt gingrich.

it's happening with people on other cable networks. it's happening with mike johnson and of course it's been happening with donald trump for a long time. how huge are the stakes in this fight not just for ukraine but for the future of our democracy? >> i could not agree with you more about thinking about the 1930s and lindbergh. in fact, on my desk right now this fantastic book about that period "it's called the ghost at the feast." he documents exactly that. this is a fantastic book by your colleague rachel maddow called "prequel." if you read that history from the 1930s, it feels like a deja vu. we should learn and speaker

johnson should read this history so that he doesn't become the next charles lindbergh of this historical moment. i get it. i was with members of congress in munich from the republican party. i get the pressure they're under with mr. trump. i know when i talk to them they agree with me. they're just afraid of mr. trump. my message to them is, you don't get to be in a moment of history very often. they're in a moment of history and they will be remembered for doing the wrong thing for 84 years just like you said if they do it. the other thing i would say, i'm not an expert on american electoral politics, but doesn't seem like speaker johnson is going to have that much time left if he's voted out of office because he brings this bill to the floor or if he's voted out come november. he doesn't get many

opportunities to make his mark in history. this is his mark. the sense of urgency i heard from ukrainians in munich that they are dying, that they have no ammunition. if they don't vote this in and putin's army is rolling over them at even a greater speed come november, is that really a place you want to be in the history books? i just really hope they do the right thing. the moment is now to do that >> it is. former u.s. ambassador to russia michael mcfaul, thank you very much for coming on. a member of israel's war cabinet says the country will launch a ground offensive in rafah unless hamas releases all the hostages by the start of ramadan, the muslim holy month, beginning on march 10th. israel's threat comes as hostage negotiations have stalled. prime minister benjamin netanyahu has called hamas' demands delusional. israeli forces have been pushing

deeper into southern gaza, launching air strikes in gaza, which borders egypt. for weeks israel has been warning of its plans to invade rafah and the biden administration has asked israel to hold off on any ground invasion until it has a plan to safely evacuate civilians. when asked about the plans over the weekend, netanyahu said, quote, there's a lot of space up north. meanwhile, the u.n. security council is expected to vote on an arab-backed resolution demanding an immediate ceasefire in gaza. the resolution calls for israel and hamas to comply with international law, rejects the forced displacement of palestinian civilians and demands the immediate and

unconditional release of all of the hostages. the u.s., however, is expected to veto that resolution, saying it could hamper the ongoing efforts to strike a hostage release deal. instead, the u.s. has proposed a rival draft, which supports a temporary ceasefire, quote, as soon as practicable. it says the idf should not proceed under current circumstances. president biden's reelection campaign this morning announced it raised $42 million last month. january's numbers were fuelled by a seven-figure haul from small dollar donors following former president trump's victory in the iowa republican caucuses. biden and the democratic national committee now have $130 million in their political war chest, the highest total of any democratic presidential candidate in history. the rnc and the trump campaign

have not yet disclosed how much they managed to raise last month. joining us now, mitch landry. help us square this massive haul, $130 million war chest, $42 million last month alone with the stories we keep hearing about a demoralized democratic base, an exhausting democratic base, people who just don't want to see this matchup, are not enthusiastic about president biden running again, yet here you are with these totals. >> they don't seem to square up, do they? actions speak a lot louder than words. let me say this, though. i just watched the previous session with ambassador mcfaul. i want to remind everybody that the president of the united states has given seven speeches on the existential crisis that is threatening the united states

of america and the choice between autocracy and democracy. it's clear in this election you're going to have a choice between two people, a guy named donald trump, who everything he touches turned to dirt, who is about revenge and oppression and who is a friend of vladimir putin's. biden's fundraising haul is hitting record numbers and this campaign is starting to hit on all cylinders. the country may not be excited about a trump/biden revisit, but that's the choice we have. i think the president has done an incredible job of bringing this country back from the brink and protecting us on the national and international

stage. >> hi, mitch. it's palmieri. i pay close attention to the campaign. i saw how the president started in january, vice president too, a lot of battleground state travel, obviously fundraising is going well. the president has joined tiktok, more digital, more aggressive rapid response. the piece that i assume is coming that people say they're anxious for is that the state of the union is in a couple of weeks right after super tuesday. should we be looking to that date to be a place where we see this is what biden would do in the second term, this is the proactive agenda you'd be voting for? >> first of all, i want to reject all the handwringing. it doesn't make any sense and

it's inconsistent with the facts. joe biden has had the best first three years of a presidency than we've seen in a long, long time. the fundraising has beat all records. we feel like we're doing really well. the country is in a difficult time right now. the world is in a very difficult crisis and we have a moment at this time to make a right decision about what the future of the country and the world is going to be. to expect everybody to be happy and excited is unreasonable. we are in a tough moment, which is why it's really important that joe biden remain president of the united states. my expectation is that the state of the union address is always an opportunity for the president to scope out a vision for the future of the country. i expect the president is going

to take full advantage of that to layout not only where we've been, how we got where we are, but how we're going to get there and why it's important to finish the job. >> mr. mayor, good morning. the president leaves in a couple of hours for a california swing to fund raise. i want to get to the reporting that donald trump has privately told his advisors that he would support a 16-week ban on abortion, but he didn't want to do it until after the primaries. what is the biden campaign's response to that potential idea? >> that's not a big surprise. donald trump takes credit for and deserves credit for ripping away a right to privacy in this country for women that has existed for a long time. he brags about it. it's no surprise that donald trump continues to be about taking freedoms away.

that's the big choice. donald trump wants to take your freedoms away. joe biden wants to protect them. there's nothing more poignant than a woman's right to make reproductive choices. i have no doubt that trump will impose a 16-week ban that's going to be harsh and critical and result in consequences like we've seen in ohio and texas. the biden administration is going to fight back against that. the president wants to restore roe and protect the freedoms of all americans all the time. >> mitch lan drew thank you very much. we're going to turn to business before the bell where we're following plans of two of the largest financial institutions in the u.s. to merge. capital one says it will seek to

acquire discover in a $35 billion all-stock deal. let's bring in andrew ross sorkin with more. good morning. >> good morning. it's a remarkable deal. it's probably the largest financial deal we've seen in years. the big question, of course, is whether washington, d.c. is going to allow it. it effectively would catapult this combined company over jp morgan and citi group as the largest credit card issuer in the country. it also creates another network or competitor to visa and mastercard and to some degree american express. capital one always focused on sort of a lower tier of customer, but it's a fascinating deal. the question is whether the regulators say this is a good thing. thus far we haven't seen big deals like this in the banking

sector. we'll see. >> last week the market snapped a five-week winning streak. there was some fear about the fact that the economy may get too hot again. what are you hearing? what's it looking like today? >> the big news today, and it may be answers the question that you're asking, is the walmart news. walmart came out with its earnings, which were a blowout to some degree. there were some comments that doug mcmillan, the ceo of walmart made, he said in the u.s. we may be managing in a period of deflation in the months to come, which effectively means prices may be coming down. that's good news in some respects, but it also suggests that it could create its own

issues over time. one of the other things you're seeing is that the amount of money shoppers are spending on every trip is also coming down. to some degree you're looking at this as good news because it means inflation is coming down. but once you get into a deflationary period you can get into a deflationary spiral and that is not good news. >> thank you very much for coming on this morning. coming up on "morning joe," savannah guthrie will join us to talk about her new book, which she calls the most vulnerable thing she's ever done. we're back in just a moment with that. 're back in just a moment h that rsv can severely affect the lungs and lower airways. but i'm protected with arexvy. arexvy is a vaccine used to prevent lower respiratory disease from rsv in people 60 years and older. rsv can be serious for those over 60,

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you know her as the cohost of the "today" show covering the biggest stories and news makers each morning. but now savannah guthrie is

sharing a deeply personal side of her own life, calling it the most vulnerable thing she's ever done. today savannah is releasing her new book entitled "mostly what got does, reflections on seeking and finding his love wherever." in it, she shares her passion for her faith by focusing on kindness and goodness, because she says, mostly what god does is love you. savannah joins us now. it is so great to have you on for this book. i've been reading up on it and watching some of your events that you've done. one thing that struck me right off the bat about your concept in this book and what you're looking for people to learn is at times when your faith is tested, at times of unspeakable loss you say that's exactly when you need god, when people are

questioning how could you have faith? >> yeah. it's the hardest to hold onto but also the most essential. the biggest crucible in my life as a young person was losing my father at the age of 16. i said friends who said, what about your faith now? you can't still believe in god. i said, actually this is when i need him the most. i can't lose my dad and lose god at the same time. the book is, i hope, very hopeful and has a really positive message that mostly what god does is love you. whatever terms we put it in we may wonder where is god and what is he up to? it's simple. mostly what god does is love you. i did also try to take on those questions of doubt especially in the world that we live in. we're all in the news business. you have your own trials, your own setbacks and

disappointments, but we also wake up very early in the morning. it's like being shot with a thousand tiny pinpricks to your heart when you hear the bad news. what i do believe is it's okay to ponder these questions. whether you come from a lot of faith or a lot of doubt, what god asks us is to bring our whole selves to him authentically. you may not get an answer right away, not in this life, but you will get him and there's great comfort there. >> i've so excited about this book. we share a similar background. i learned that when we were sitting talking years ago. i just said holy, holy, holy or something. you said number one in the him

hymnal. >> page one. >> so i'm always fascinated by people with a shared faith. i will say many of them i've been so saddened at the direction they've gone, not politically. god doesn't care about our politics. he cares about our souls. he loves us. you seem to get the core of the message that we were taught growing up, that god is love, that god loves you. anybody that's watching out there, god is there, god loves you. jesus said, i didn't come here for sacrifice. i came here for love. it's not the healthy that needs the doctor, it's the sick. you seem to get at the heart of that. what god does is love us. >> preach, preach, preach, joe. sometimes that can be really

hard to believe. that's why i said this book is so personal, because i didn't want to write a memoir. i can't write a memoir. i can't even remember what happened in my career. if i wrote a memoir it would be called "what happened." every single person no matter how it looks from the outside, every single person has struggled and had setbacks and disappointments. it is the hardest in those moments to believe there could be a god. this isn't a book to preach. by talking about the god that i've encountered when i've done everything wrong, i hope that god is so universally appealing and compelling. i really hope this is for anyone

that there's something that is compelling and resonates with them no matter if you bring a lot of faith, a lot of doubt. come as you are is the message of the book, because i do believe that god loves us specifically. the second part to that is when you can truly feel that love, if you could really absorb it, like let it in, let it touch your soul, guess what? you wouldn't be able to contain it. you would exude it outward. i really think that is god's plan for us as human beings. unfortunately we do forget it. you wonder what can i do in a world that's wrong. >> you really explain your faith here and the opportunity for others to have it, because that love is what gives you courage.

that love is what gives you strength. that love is what forgives you and allows you to move forward. i think people jump to, well, i'm not feeling it. they kind of are too literal about it where they miss the opportunity to feel it and let it in. >> yeah. and so many things we've seen from certain preachers and certain movements exclude love. so many people today are cutting out the heart of jesus' message whether you're talking about the sermon on the mount or you go through the entire ministry. it's about forgiveness, love, being merciful and being a good samaritan. it's about loving others. god says blessed are the

merciful. they'll be shown mercy. that's love. this is a bold move. you say i'm not a greek theologian. pick it up, read it. it's amazing. talk about not only what this book is, but what it is not. >> yeah. first of all, spoiler alert, i have like a disclaimer section at the beginning of the book. i didn't go to seminary. if you count vacation bible school, thank you. i was mostly there for the graham crackers and juice. really it's a regular person experiencing faith through the ups and the downs. i tried to be really honest and raw about it, including as my

daughter would say cringe, including some old journal entries in here that are painful to re-read. i think sometimes when you go back and look what you can see is progress. i think you can see the hand of god that was not visible to you then, but can be now. so the book is just a series of essays. it's supposed to be really accessible. i say you could drop it on the floor and wherever it lands, just pick it up and read it. it's supposed to be by your bedside and read it in no particular order. i hope it brings people encouragement and joy and laughs. it's a little bit irreverent. >> those of us who know you well know how important your faith is to you.

it's one of the most beautiful things about you other than the fact you put way too many limes in your tequila. >> to get rid of the taste of alcohol. >> the people who watch you and love you every day on tv don't perhaps know the extent of your faith. just taking a step back, the decision to put this all out here. here we are on pub day. this book is in every bookstore in the country and on amazon. >> i'm shocked. seeing some of this press i said to my husband last night i'm sort of embarrassed by ail of this. like, is this too much? this was a year ago. i was given the opportunity. someone said would you ever want to write about your faith? and instead of saying no, i

thought, well, that sounds interesting and scary and challenging. i'm always telling our interns or young students, like, get out of your comfort zone. everything interesting you do in your life is going to be out of your comfort zone. i realized it was time for me to take my owned a vice. as my editor said, i real need to read something in here to make me feel better. he said, oh, you're smoking what you're selling. i continue to be afraid, especially being the kind of person i am. if you know me, you know that i'm a person of faith. i talk about it all the time. i wasn't trying to become a professional person of faith. it's just that i had something good to say about god.

the most beautiful and astounding and shocking thing is that i didn't do this out of a sense of obligation to god or because i needed to or now is the time or the world needs it. i did it because i wanted to. god made me want to say something kind about love and put something beautiful into the world. that is all i tried to do. >> you have done that. there was one part, getting back to a conversation you were having a minute ago with joe, about the idea that shakes some people's faith or prevents them from believing in god all together, which is this idea that god has a plan. when something terrible happens they say, well, it's part of the plan. you use the example of a child dies. people say, well, heaven has a

new angel. you say, no, no, no. you bring it back to the death of your father charlie when you were 16 years old. >> yeah. i felt like i didn't want to do a whitewash. how can you write this book all about love and kindness when we inhabit this actual world where pain and suffering is all around us and often within us. one of the essays i write about is i find it interesting and i totally understand why so many of us try to say, oh, this bad thing happened or that bad thing happened. well, it's all part of god's plan, everything happens for a reason. i write that i do not believe that god is the author of death and evil. he is not. there are hard questions. i get into it here too.

why then does he allow suffering? why does evil persist in this world? those are very difficult questions to ponder. but i do not believe this is the world god ultimately intends. i do not believe this is how the story will end. while we are in this world we can't understand everything, but we can feel and believe in the presence of god. it's impossible to put into words. that's why it's a leap of faith. i'd love to have joe on my side because i find you to be so compelling and persuasive. if it could be written, then joe could write it. it is a leap of faith. after that, you will find your intellect highly engaged and your emotions highly engaged. it's totally compelling, but it will require a leap of faith. >> you know, savannah, when

you're talking abouthen a child dies, when someone we love close to us dies and it's inexplicable, when your father dies when you're 16 years old, god is not the author of that, but god is the strength. god gives us the strength like he gave you the strength. i always go back to joseph, whose brothers threw him into a pit, thought that they had killed him. he rises to power in egypt and saves not only all of egypt but saves those same brothers. i always remember the words. it goes right back to what you're saying here. that is, i'm not going to kill you. what you meant for evil, god has used for good. at the end of the day, that's it, isn't it? >> yeah. >> that's the power of faith. >> absolutely.

i think i quote that very verse, what you intended for evil, god intended for good. while i do say i don't believe that god is the author of evil and instigates suffering in order to teach some lesson, i just can't believe that about god. if i did, i think i'd still have a distance with god. i'd be like, was there really no other way to teach me that lesson. god does not create this evil and suffering, but he is quite good at transforming it into something profoundly beautiful. that is really the heart of faith and what the book is and i hope opens up the opportunity for people to reflect on these things. i left a blank page at the end of every chapter on purpose. they let me draw hearts and stars all over it, which is like my inner fourth grade girl. it is just at the end of each chapter to sit with stillness.

stillness is where god does his thing. if you're wondering, connecting with us is his thing. >> as we have texted, i find a lot of this relatable, particularly your journey. you do really hard things every day. can you talk about specifically how you use your faith in you day to day life? do you get up at 2 in the morning instead of 3 to prepare for the day, to pray, but god is sitting on your shoulder to get you through any difficult thing. >> i couldn't do any of it without that solid foundation. i still get anxious. i certainly get nervous about a big interview.

you would run screaming from my inner dialogue at those times. my faith grounds me. my faith doesn't tell my i'll have a good interview. what it tells me is i am not alone. that has meant so much to me. on the first day i did the "today" show, that was time of controversy. the country was not crying out for savannah guthrie to be the new anchor of the "today" show. i was thrilled to have the job, but also terrified, because i thought i'm not going to last here, this isn't a good situation. i got this big migraine the morning i was supposed to go on the air 20 minutes before air. when i get a migraine, not only does it hurt my head, i can't see. i turned out the lights and laid down on the dark floor 20 minutes before air. the producers were like, are you going to make this? what's going on with the new

girl? i was laying there and all of a sudden this verse i had memorized years earlier popped into my head. god was saying in essence, i'm here, help is on the way, look up and out from your circumstances. you're in the fetal position. lift your head up, help is on the way. it's not just anyone. it's god himself. i got you this far. i'm not going to leave you now. somehow i crawled out onto the set and did it. but there have been a million examples like that that have meant so much to me. >> lastly, you talk about some ir

irreverance in the book. >> i admit that i had a seventh grade shoplifting spree. >> you go into some detail too, perhaps the most shocking part of this book. >> got to be real. >> so interesting. >> it's a beautiful, beautiful book. >> okay. absolutely. the new book on sale starting today is entitled "mostly what god does, reflections on seeking and finding his love everywhere." savannah guthrie, thank you very much. i will share that we have the shoplifting in common. >> it was the '80s. >> i was in ninth grade. it was this little candy store. now they know. >> the book's about grace. >> exactly. >> forgiveness. >> thank you. >> thank you so much.

we turn now to a very related conversation and what our next guest calls a crisis of social fitness. joining us now staff writer at "the atlantic" derrick thompson. his latest piece entitled "why americans suddenly stopped hanging out." this is such an important topic. >> i was talking to my kids last week about social media and iphones and all these other things that seem to isolate people. what our conversation expanded out to was, yes, the pews emptying out in churches, but also service clubs, organizations, the rotary clubs, the churches, but also service clubs, organizations, the rotary clubs, the elks clubs that all of our parents were members of, these places that people came together, and they just -- it is

not happening now. and it is creating such a crisis of loneliness. talk about it, and how did this happen? >> well, you put your finger on the fact i think there are two stories to tell here. since the advent of screens and social media and smartphones, you've seen plummeting socializing, not only among adults but teens. the average american adult hangs out face to face with people 33% less than they did 20 years ago. the average teenager hangs out with their fellow peers 50% less. just an enormous collapse. to your point this is not something we can nearly and exclusively blame on smartphones and social media. this is something that robert putnam pointed out in the 1990s, he called it bowling alone. we're seeing a decline of labor unions and political associations and people who just hanging out at the bowling alley. i think it is important to show we are sort of in a hanging out depression, within a larger hanging out recession that goes

back decades. it is important to remember both of those facts. >> so, derek, which groups do you see experiencing this the most? which groups are finding themselves the most aileen and therefore loneliest? can we break it down along some sort of demographics? >> yes, fortunately the american time you survey, run by the federal government and the bureau of labor statistics allows you to break this down by age. marital status, education, ethnicity. what you see is that for the most part, loneliness is highest among the low income, amonghispd unmarried americans. if you want to tell the story of where is hanging out where is socializing falling the fastest? that's among teenagers. where is the level the lowest? who actually has the fewest friends? who has the most alone time? there you see sort of loneiness

inequality is growing. higher income americans and married americans have more socializing time and lower income americans and unmarried americans seem the most untethered from social infrastructure. they go to church less, they have fewer friends, they have fewer dinner parties, that's really where the crisis of loneliness is probably most acute. >> derek, the numbers really are stunning. this is such a great piece. important piece, so the next question is what are the implications of all this? if people are not socializing as much as they used to and clearly they're not, what does that mean for our society now, but also in the future? >> let's take two occasions, one psychological, one political. psychologically, i like hanging out. i'm an extrovert. we know the numbers, from the federal government, from the cdc, that shows that teen hopelessness, anxiety and

depression spiked to all time highs. we have a loneliness crisis in this country according to the surgeon general. it is important to say we don't just have an aloneness phenomenon, we also have a loneliness phenomenon. some people can be alone and very, very happy, you know, watching a movie alone or reading a book alone, i'm not against aloneness, i'm against loneliness that makes people sad. the second implication you might be interested in is political. i think a lot of people, if they see their community less, if they see their neighbors less, what do they have to understand the world? not physical world interactions with other human beings, but only national news. and i think the news environment where people are constantly catastrophizing the world, it makes people feel like the world is worse than it actually is. and that actually i think might be another implication of the loneliness crisis. >> all right, the new piece is entitled "why americans suddenly stopped hanging out," we have a four-hour show, we could do an entire show on all of these

issues you brought to the table, "the atlantic's" derek thompson. thank you very much. we appreciate you being on. this is so important. >> it really is. and the loneliness epidemic is -- it is such a crisis, and it is just one of those things that don't fit neatly into a politician's plan on how they're going to say, you know, america, and this and that, but loneliness just eats away at so many people and we have got to figure out how to tie -- >> it is an emergency. >> it is such an emergency. >> the surgeon general called this an epidemic. and so it is a serious issue of our time. >> and it has been. >> any final thoughts this morning? >> just that, you just know that so much of the divisions, it is easy to go into silo when you pick up your phone and see what twitter has to say about something or try to find community there where there is

not any give and take or you can catastrophize and, wow. if we followed super communicator skills, thank you, willie, i mean, the country would be in a much better place. >> yeah. we love covering the politics the way we do, we had three amazing books and pieces today that speak to things much larger, super communicator, savannah's amazing book about faith, and then the piece we just heard about loneliness, which is such a crisis and so telling about who we are and where we are right now. >> yeah. jonathan lemire, final thoughts. >> on this idea of loneliness, and derek's point there about getting -- having less connection with your neighbors, get your news -- your connections from national news and also your screen and it is easier, the next step on this, it is easier to vilify the other on a screen, easier to yell at someone over twitter and social media than a face to face conversation. it breeds resentment and anger in our society as well.

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