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haley said to deliver a state of the race speech in her home state of south carolina. right now, polls show haley trailing donald trump, in her home state, by almost 30 points. so, as you can imagine, rumors spread haley, maybe, was preparing to drop out of the presidential race. then, today, haley got up there and said this. >> south carolina will vote on saturday. but, on sunday, i will still be running for president. i am not going anywhere. people have a right to have their voices heard, and they deserve a real choice.

not a soviet election, where there is only one candidate, and he gets 99% of the vote. we do not anoint kings in this country. we have elections. donald trump, of all people, should know that we do not to rig elections. >> that is haley's new message, i guess. it does not matter that she is on track to lose her home state by a bigger margin than any presidential candidate in modern history. she is staying in this race. to put her money where her mouth is, the haley campaign, now, spending more than a half million dollars running this new ad in the state of michigan where republicans cawill choose their candidate next week. >> congress is the most exclusive nursing home in america. washington keeps failing, because politicians from yesterday, cannot lead us into tomorrow. we need term limits, aimental competency tests, and a plan to

defeat china and restore our economy. we need to leave behind the chaos, and drama, of the past with a new generation, and a new conservative president. >> america needs a new generation. ewcome honestly, that message is a little rich, coming from haley. a politician, who has been on the national stage for well over a decade. but, despite her empty rhetoric, and abysmal poll numbers, you can see a certain kind of logic in nikki haley's decision to stay in this race. it is not because she has a real chance of beating donald trump, no, nothing to suggest that she does at this point. instead, nikki haley may be pinning her hopes on being the deus ex machina candidate, the candidate waiting in the wings, just in e,case something takes donald trump out of this race before the republican convention later this summer. that is not a totally absurd idea. right now, donald trump's manhattan criminal trial, scheduled to go forward on march 25th, the federal trial

over his attempts to overturn the election could begin as soon as early summer, depending on how the supreme court responds to trump's claims that he is immune from criminal prosecution. donald trump faces the real being a ity of convicted felon, well before election day. nikki haley knows that, but the trump campaign knows that as well. today, trump's campaign released a new memo, outlining their path to the nomination by march 19th. six days, before his first trailer set to begin. at the same time, trump is tightening his grip on the official republican party apparatus. he has successfully pushed republican national committee chair, ronna mcdaniel, out of the job. mcdaniel plans to step down shortly after the south carolina primary. he has begun advocating for new rnc leadership, stocked with loyalists, including his own

daughter-in-law. today, the daily beast reports, some trump allies are now predicting a full purge of the rnc, driving out any member who does not pledge absolute fealty to donald trump. the rnc is the only body that can, actually, remove trump from their ticket after he has locked up the nomination, and trump is about to take it over. so, we heare fast approaching a scenario in which the republican party is stuck with trump, no matter what happens to him in a court of law. joining me now, mark leibovich, staff writer at the atlantic, and author of thank you for your servitude. also with me, charlie sykes, cofounder, and former editor at large of the bulwark, and author of arhow the right lost its mind. thank you to both of you for being here tonight. chairman, i start with you. i guess with this takeover of the republican apparatus, this inevitable takeover, is there any path left for republicans to ditch donald trump as their nominee, at, or after, a conviction, if he is -- at the convention, rather, if he is convicted? >> there is a chance, but it is

now slim, and none. with the stipulation that nikki haley often disappoints and will not beat donald trump, i must say, i am glad she is continuing to stay in this race, and continue to push donald trump. there is short term and long term. in the very short term, she is getting voices to that part in the party that is insane, right now, to be abandoning ukraine, and to be appeasing vladimir putin. longer term, i think that she is trying to articulate that you don't, necessarily, have to be a partisan democrat to look at trump and say, this is crazy. this man is losing it, he is erratic, he rants and raves, and faces all of these legal problems. yes, it is a losing cause, but there may be some scraps in the short term, and long term.

but the medium-range? it is not a pretty picture for the republican party. >> to that point, mark, nikki haley was -- she was on another news channel, earlier this evening, and had this to say about donald trump. take nna listen. >> my strategy is to make sure that the american people have their voices heard. it is also acknowledging the realities that he will be in court march, april, may, and june. more judgments, or court cases will be heard. he, himself, said he will spend more time this year in a courtroom, that he will on the campaign trail. that is a problem. >> i am not sure if that is a pitch to voters, or an explanation as to why she is sticking around in this race. >> what it is is a much sharper message, frankly, than anything she's had to this point. that's the tip of the iceberg. she has talked, a lot, about how trump's behavior has spiraled into a more unhinged place, lately. frankly, this is sharper than anything klwe heard from her

going into the new hampshire primary, where frankly, she overperformed. look, i think her prospects are bleak in south carolina, but if you really listen to what she's saying, there are many orders of magnitude, like layers of truth, to what she has been saying, compared to before. also, there is some hope, maybe, that not only will she stay in the race, but fight in a real way. not just hang around and hope to inherit the whirlwind, if, for some reason, donald trump is not viable come the summer. that sounds a little farfetched at this point. i do have some hope that not only will she stick around, but she will stick around in a fairly d scrappy, purposeful, way, that actually serves the republican party in the long run. >> i also must think about what this means, charlie, for national security. trump's total takeover of the party comes, obviously, at a

difficult time for ukraine and for opponents of vladimir putin. take a listen to what former congresswoman, liz cheney, said about this over the weekend. >> i think we need to take donald trump seriously, and we need to take seriously the extent to which you now, have a putin wing of the republican party. i believe that the issue, this election cycle, is ensuring that the putin wing of the republican party does not take over the west wing of the white house. >> charlie, is there still a wing of the party that is willing to oppose trump on russia? if so, who, and where, are they? >> there is, and it is shrinking, and aging out. if, in fact, we did have a vote in the house of representatives, if speaker mike johnson wanted to do the right thing, and have an upper down vote on the ukraine, it would pass overwhelmingly, with a substantial number of republicans. we saw a substantial number of republicans who voted for the ukraine aid, in rethe united states senate, but having said that, this is a party that continues to be in the thrall

of donald trump. donald trump is the number one american cheerleader for vladimir putin. he is incapable of criticizing putin, even after the murder of alexei navalny. you can see which way the trends are going, but it is not over, quite yet. there is a remnant. there is a vestige there. you can still see it in the senate to, and in the house. i do not want to overstate it, but, the fact that nikki haley is ancalling out donald trump, along with liz cheney, and saying, these are the stakes. put aside the buffoonery. the future of the western world is at stake. the future of the nato alliance is at stake. this has implications for the world, for the united states, as well. i think it is important to have somebody who is articulating that, at this point. again, donald trump controls the republican party, but the

putin wing i takeover is, probably, coming, but not there yet. so, the last readout is still holding. >> mark, to that point, you would think that if there was ever a moment for nikki haley to distinguish herself from trump with the national security, it would be with the death of alexei navalny, in this moment. but, i guess, the question is, are there any republican voters listening to the argument, or who actually care about navalny right now? >> one would hope. liz cheney took the messaging to the next level, by calling him the putin wing of the republican party. as dan pfeiffer, i think, pointed out today n puin his substack about messaging, republicans and democrats, vladimir putin is not popular. yes, donald trump likes him, tucker carlson likes him, he has this boomlet going among some celebrity spokespeople ho the party, but ultimately, this is not a system that republicans, or certainly,

democrats, revere at this point. i would also point out, liz cheney and nikki haley are both robust voices. neither of them is likely to be the republican nominee anytime soon, but they are not aging out, either. they both make a compelling case, and i'm glad that nikki haley leads with this. trump isn't ducking this issue, either. i think, on laura ingraham earlier tonight, said something to the effect of, the legal judgments will cost him of millions of dollars is a form of navalny. it's a weird construction, but he's wrapping himself in the martyrdom of alexander navalny, which is absurd, offensive, on many levels. i guess it is good that there is a counter point to that, within the party, and at least in an active sense. >> charlie, it feels like if some republicans are just trying to wait trump out, it may not be successful with his takeover of bethe party apparatus. it suggests, trumpism is poised

to outlive trump himself, within the gop, for years to come. >> i think that is true. by the way, mark is right, i am not referring to nikki haley when i say aging out, i'm thinking more than mitch mcconnell wing of the united states senate. the younger senators, the ones more likely to vote against the aid to ukraine. to your point, i do think that we ought to realize, this is a longer fight. this is not going to end in 2024, whatever the results of the election are. the trumpism is going to be around for a very very long time. there are a generation erof you trumpists, coming into power, into politics, who will be around for 20, or 30 years. it is difficult to see a place for a liz cheney, or a nikki haley, in the republican party, in the near future. so, again, it is easy to be caught in the horse race, right now, what happens in the next two, three, four months. but, this will be a long term

struggle. the republican party has been, for more than 80 years, and internationalist party. now, it is making a turn to being in isolationist, american first party. that has long term implications, and will not end when donald trump exits the stage. >> important point, there. charlie sykes, mark leibovich, gentlemen, thank you both for starting us off sytonight. coming up, a new report today, saying that allies close to donald trump are planning on making christian nationalism a key part of a second trump administration. we speak to the author of that report, ahead. first, new york's attorney general says, she is ready to seize trump's properties, if necessary, to make him pay the massive fraud penalty, issued by a judge last week. trump's legal woes, that is next. is next. how many people did you tell? only pay for what you need. jingle: ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ baby: ♪ liberty. ♪

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we will seek a judgment enforcement mechanism in court, and we will ask the judge to seize his assets. >> that was new york attorney general, letitia james, vowing to make trump pay the 355 million dollar plus interest penalty from the civil fraud trial. even if it means taking buildings owned by the former president. however, trump appears to be resorting to alternative means to pay his legal debts. over the weekend, the donald launch, yes, his never surrender, gold high top sneakers. they retail online for the low, low, low price of only $399. the former president would need to sell a million pairs of sneakers to pay the penalty from his new york fraud trial, which could take, i would argue, sometime. meanwhile, trump is waiting on to supreme court decisions that could come down at any moment. one of the issues of immunity, which will determine whether

trump's federal decision interference case, or rather, federal election interference case can proceed to trial, and another, deciding whether or not to uphold a colorado decision to remove trump from the ballot. melissa murray joins me now to discuss this, and more. a professor of nyu law, and the co-host of the strict scrutiny podcast. great to see you melissa, thank you for coming on the program. letitia james, tonight, saying she is prepared to seize trump's buildings if he cannot pay his civil fraud fine. how do you see this judgment playing, out financially, and politically, for trump? how much will it hurt his bottom line? >> it is, obviously, a massive judgment. not just the almost 400 million from actual penalties, but also, 100 million in pretrial interest, that has already accrued, and continues to accrue. this is a sizable judgment. the kind of judgment that could, easily, be satisfied with the seizure of a massive asset, like a building.

letitia james has mentioned the trump 40 wall street building a number of times at this point. but yes, this is a standard way. other assets could be used to satisfy that judgment, and this is, pretty much, standard operating procedure. there are other judgments, there is also the e. jean carroll defamation verdict, and that judgment was about $88 million. this isn't the only financial problem he has on the horizon. >> let's turn to trump's criminal exposure, and the issue of immunity, currently before the supreme court. trump has already lost on this question of immunity, twice. tanya chutkan ruled against him, and then, the d. c. circuit upheld chutkan's decision. what are trump's chances of getting the supreme court to grant this temporary stay? >> i think it is unlikely that the court will grant a temporary stay. i think it is also very highly likely that the court may just

allow the d. c. circuit decision to stand. let me be clear, it is not a question of what the court does, it's a question of when the court will do it. the longer the court spends deliberating on this question, of whether or not to grant certain things, to stay the ruling, means that donald trump has won. we have already blown past the march 4th deadline to begin the trial in d. c., and the further we get from an actual trial date, the more likely it is that donald trump will not go on trial at all. so, the supreme court has a role to play here. the role is in making a decision, and doing so, with some measure of expedition. >> if trump is granted this temporary state by the supreme court, when should we expect to see this trial get underway? >> well, if the state is granted, then, i think, all bets are off. we also have the disqualification hearing that was, i guess, last week, or a few weeks ago, that the supreme court must also a decision on. i think there is -- thinking of

the optics here, seems very likely from the oral argument in the disqualification hearing that it was unlikely for the court to side with colorado. that is a win for donald trump, to stay on the ballot in colorado. i think it just making sure that the court remains above the fray, as this political cycle is underway, it is very likely that the court will be looking for a way to deliver, kind of, a loss to donald trump, so it can appear even handed. again, a loss that comes with the big expanse of time is not a loss at all. in fact, it is a win, for trump. >> let me ask you about that colorado decision, and whether you think it will come down to whether the supreme court believes that the states have the right to, basically, determine if this candidate, or this person who seeks office was involved in an insurrection. they would not be saying this if it came down to an age limitation, or age qualification, they know the states have that right. would it come down to interpretation, or why do you think the supreme court would not side with colorado?

>> there were a number of different theories floating at that argument. one is this idea that in order for section three at the 14th amendment to be operative, congress must pass a statute, it can't just happen at the state level. congress needs to authorize it. that seems to be where they were going with regard to the oral argument, although, many different theories were floated. all i will say about the congress has i act is there a number of different provisions within the 14th amendment, including section five of the 14th amendment, authorizing congress to act, legislate, in furtherance of the aims of the 14th amendment, which secures civil rights, equal rights, due process, to all americans. this cortez taken a narrow view of congress's enforcement power under section five of the 14th amendment, so it would be highly ironic, and even inconsistent, if they determined here that congress needed to first act before prohibiting the states from doing something when they have been willing to let states move

forward without having congressional approval in advance. >> i was going to say, i would not be surprised if this court is in fact, is inconsistent with its decisions, especially this one. let me ask, you finally, and switching gears a little, on the supreme court. i do have to bring this up. this headline, today. justice alito, renews criticism of landmark ruling on same sex marriage. your response to that? >> it is not the first time we've heard this from justice alito. he was a dissenter in 2015, which legalized same-sex marriage across the nation. in 2020, he, and justice thomas, also issued a separate opinion in a denial of cert that raised questions about obergefell. so, this is something that we have heard before. it is not surprising. i think in the wake of dobbs, and the overruling of roe v. wade, it raises real questions about whether this appetite has an appetite for staying the course with established precedence, or whether they will seek the opportunities to revisit cases that have been

settled. >> troubling headline from justice alito, but again, not surprising. thank you so much, it was a pleasure, thank you for joining us. still to come tonight, a bombshell report about plans to make a second trump administration a haven for christian nationalism. plus, harrowing images out of the gaza strip, moving people to call for a cease-fire. why did america just say no to one? more on that with pod save the world's ben rhodes, next. rhode or genital yeast infections, and low blood sugar. a rare, life-threatening bacterial infection in the skin of the perineum could occur. stop taking farxiga and call your doctor right away if you have symptoms of this infection, an allergic reaction, or ketoacidosis. ♪ far-xi-ga ♪ need to be at your best?

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>> israel's war with hamas has reached a inflection point, in the city of khan yunis israeli forces have conducted raids on the al nasser hospital complex, one of the last surviving medical facilities inside the strip. now following those raids, the world health organization says nasr hospital, no longer, is functioning. this means there are now, zero working hospitals in all of gaza. today, u. n. agencies began evacuating critical patients to rafah, where thousands have fled, after israel declared it safe. though, recent strikes

contradict that claim. over a million civilians are squeezed into this last corner of gaza. many, in tent cities, with very little food, or clean water. it is images, like these, that are moving more and more people, around the world, to call for an immediate ceasefire. one, allowing the release of israeli hostages held by hamas, and would allow aid to get into gaza. not america. america says, the war should go on. that the images you see can keep happening. despite reports citing unnamed biden administration officials describing biden venting his frustrations about his israeli prime minister, benjamin netanyahu's tactics behind closed doors, what is reportedly said in private does not match what the u.s. is saying, and doing, in public. today, the u.s. vetoed a u. n. resolution, demanding immediate, humanitarian cease- fire. the u.s. ambassador to the u. n. argued a cease-fire, that is not conditioned on hamas releasing all of the more than 100 israeli hostages, still

being held inside of gaza, would fail to bring durable peace. so, the stalemate continues. meanwhile, things may soon get much worse for gazans crowded into rafah. last week, israeli officials unveiled next steps for their ground invasion of gaza. plans, including, invading rafah with troops. the u.s., and western allies, quickly denouncing that plan for the obvious humanitarian crisis it would provoke, but netanyahu insists, israel will not bow to international pressure, and over the weekend, a member of his war cabinet delivered an ultimatum. the promised ground invasion will begin, if all of the hostages are not released by ramadan. that is march 10th. so, the question is, what happens now? joining me now, ben rhodes, former deputy of national security advisers under president obama, and co-host of pod save the world. ben, it is great to see you again. i'm sorry it is under the circumstances, but no one better to talk to about this.

do you think that there is a cognitive dissonance that is emerging here? that is reflected here? especially in the united states veto at the united nations security council today? >> i think so. clearly, the united states does not think it's a good idea for this operation in rafah to go forward. it would be a humanitarian catastrophe, it does not rescue the hostages. you can't rescue the hostages at that scale, militarily, with that kind of operation. it would not achieve its military objective of destroying hamas. you are escalating an already horrific humanitarian circumstance over the objections of the u.s. i think the challenge is, we keep hearing about this private messaging, but if the public embrace of the israeli government, let's be clear, it's not just israel talk about, as prime minister netanyahu in his government. if those continue, those vetoes continue, if the military assistance continues that condition, netanyahu,

essentially does not see a red light for this rafah operation. i think that is the dissonance. if we do not think it is the right thing for them to go into rafah like this, at some point, you need to draw a line with your actions, and not just the words you say in private. >> that is the crux of the question i am trying to get to, which is that the u.s. has tools in his box to pressure israel, which it has done, and used, in the past. if saying publicly to the world, we care about a cease- fire, and the release of hostages, and to prevent a ground invasion in rafah, why is it not to using those tools? what the u.s. proposed after its veto is a deal that would tie a temporary cease-fire to a hostage release, but, it is also notable to say a major ground offensive in rafah, as you noted, should not proceed under current circumstances. >> well, i think what the u.s. would like to happen, what the biden administration would like to happen, clearly, is a lengthy pause. we can call it a cease-fire, or a pause, in the hostilities,

allowing for the release of hostages, and the provision of a significant amount of assistance into gaza. let's be clear, people are desperate for food, water, and medical attention. then, use that window to build out diplomatic initiative. dealing with the future palestinian aspirations, future israeli security concerns. this makes sense. i think the problem is, netanyahu is not on board with that approach. so, ultimately, there is a decision here. can you get done that type of approach, a cessation of hostilities, and release of hostages, an improvement in the management situation, if you do not have a fundamental break with netanyahu? they seem to not want to change tack, yet, in terms of this idea, that if we do this privately with netanyahu, we bring him along to our position. look, if they succeed, that's great. i think the concern many of us have watching this from the outside is, we see netanyahu getting up and, publicly, rebuking the united states, and saying rafah will go forward, and there will never be a

palestinian state. under those circumstances, at some point, you need to use your leverage. ayman, let's be clear. israel cares about this. they don't want the diplomatic isolation of the united states voting that way, at the security council, on behalf of the cease-fire. this is why they put effort in trying to prevent that outcome. they do not want to see, obviously, conditions on military assistance. so, there is leverage. the question is, do you use your leverage, or use persuasion? thus far, they are still trying to use persuasion. bibi netanyahu, i can tell, you from experience, is not a persuadable person, particularly when dealing with a democratic president. >> it's an important point that you bring up. look, you and i speak to a lot of officials in the region, and many of them say, netanyahu's political future is tied to this war. he does not want to end this. the united states, as you said, is trying to thread the needle between public pressure, and private pressure, but if that does not work, can we see, and we saw state department matthew miller saying that they would like to see a humanitarian

pause before ramadan starts. is it, even at this point, relevant? is it even possible given everything that has happened to change course? in that determination that netanyahu has to go into rafah?. >> you make an important point, because netanyahu has the right wing coalition. these are the people, like national security minister, ben- gvir, who displaced people out of gaza. making a palestinian state impossible. netanyahu cares more about what those people think than what joe biden says to him. those are the people who keep him in power. that is the fundamental challenge that he isn't interested in the perpetuation of this war. again, i do not think it is likely that he will change course, and embrace the u.s. proposal of a cease-fire, in exchange for the release of hostages, and then some broader diplomatic initiatives. we will see if that bears

results. certainly, i hope it does. i hope that there is a deal to be had here. but, right now, it does not feel like the momentum is moving in that direction. it feels like the momentum is moving in the opposite direction. the question is, given that reality, when do you change from these private words that you then read out in public? they're not that private at this point. when you change to a more public position of wanting a cease fire, and saying, that there will be some kind of conditions, if there is not one reached. i think rafah will be the threshold for that. i would hope it's before rafah, because you don't want this to move forward. you don't want to see that kind of awful escalation, taking place in the city of 1 million people, packed like that. let's hope it doesn't happen. >> you need to wonder, why does the administration stay on this course, and not change? ben rhodes, stick around, we have a lot more to talk to you about after the break, including the fall of the ski town in eastern ukraine to russian forces, and support for ukraine among republicans in washington remains in limbo. that is next, stay with us. wi

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liberty mutual customized my car insurance and i saved hundreds. that's great. i know, i've bee telling everyone. baby: liberty. oh! baby: liberty. how many people did you tell? only pay for what you need. jingle: ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ baby: ♪ liberty. ♪ this is footage put out by a pro russian journalist, and an official at the russian foreign ministry, over the weekend. purporting to show russian troops, lowering the ukrainian flag, and raising the russian flag, in the eastern ukrainian

town of avdiivka. with just four days until the two year anniversary of the russian invasion of ukraine, and less than a month until the russian presidential election, russia's capturd of avdiivka is the first major military victory in months, is handed russian president vladimir putin a major political win. the biden administration is not being coy about why they think ukraine lost this specific battle. biden's national security adviser, jake sullivan, on a call today with reporters from the white house. >> this happened, in large part, because ukraine is running out of weapons do, to congressional inaction. if ukrainian troops didn't have the supplies that needed to stop the russian advance. >> last week, the senate passed a bill with 60 billion dollars of aid to support ukraine in this war, passing the bill to the house, where republican speaker of the house, mike johnson, says he will not be rushed to pass it. he didn't even bring it to the floor last week, and now, congress is on recess. what does this delay mean for

our allies in ukraine? what can president biden do if congress will not do its job, and act? joining us again, ben rhodes, former deputy security adviser for the obama white house. ben, the biden administration, tying the loss of avdiivka very directly, to the lack of usaid because of congressional inaction. is this a good strategy on the part of the white house? to try to ratchet up public pressure on gop lawmakers holding up the eight? >> yes. look, this is not hyperbole. you and i, sometimes, argue about how you put pressure on hypothetical futures, but it is the case that this is now an artillery battle, a small arms battle, along a long front line. what has happened is that the russians have ramped up their capacity, churned out the kind of weaponry for their troops at the front line. they have also backfilled their

supplies from north korea, of all places. the ukrainians are running short. they just do not have the kind of pipelines of supplies that they need to be in this frontline battle with a larger, russian, army, and a larger, russian, army. i think it is okay to point out the stakes involved here. it's not just about getting the ukrainian some new capability, the kind of thing that we're talking about over the last year or so. do they get f-16s, are these kinds of tanks, this is about, literally, whether or not they will have to have a lifeline of supplies they need to hold out against a larger russian military. absolutely, it is absurd that the reason why we can't have a vote on this is because some speaker of the house is worried about losing his job to a bunch of maga lunatics in his caucus. we know if it was put to a straight up or down vote in the house, it would pass, with a healthy amount of republican support. so, i think it is worth dialing up the pressure here, because that is what the stakes are in the real life, the real world, not in the maga world of

republican politics in washington. >> to your point, and you certainly know washington better than i do, is biden's path year to go through mike johnson? is there anything that biden can do to help the situation in ukraine without needing to work with, as liz cheney called, at the putin wing of the republican party, including people like maga mike johnson? >> i think the only way you get the kind of robust package that is, absolutely, required, is to work through mike johnson, or find some other, procedural, way, to force a vote in the house of representatives. obviously, mike johnson brings that bill to the floor tomorrow, if he wants to. there are other, length year, more problematic, and challenging procedural ways to force the vote, that, frankly, takes time that is not guaranteed to succeed. absent that, absent passing a supplemental, there are things that the administration can do to move around stockpiles in europe, try to resupply the ukrainians that way, but let's be clear, it is not, anywhere, near the efficiency of just passing this bill, or anywhere near the scale of what the

ukrainians need. so, i think, after a long time of trying to work with republicans, and attach border provisions to fit in the senate, all of that, the months, that have been put in to make this easier for the republican party to move this forward, i think the only way is real pressure. pointing out the real life stakes that are involved in this. >> let me ask, you quickly, about sanctions. president biden said that the u.s. will unveil sanctions against russia on saturday, in response to the killing of opposition leader, alexei navalny. if you are in charge of the sanctions, what would they entail? what would they look like? what would be an appropriate response here? >> you, know frankly, i just don't think that there is some additional sanction that makes a difference. the russians have learned to live, evade, and work around, robust sanctions. i think that a few things you want on the table is that there are several hundred billion dollars in frozen russian reserves. trying to expedite ways to get money into the hands of

ukrainians, i think, should be looked at. frankly, another thing, as someone who spoke with alexei navalny over the years, doing a bit of what he did it, which is exposing the corruption, and the kleptocracy of the russian regime, and their cronies. taking up the mantle of spotlighting the uncomfortable things that putin didn't want spotlighted. whether his wealth, the wealth of his cronies, or how he steals money from his people. there are things that can be done, i think, in addition to whatever sanctions are introduced. i also think that there should be open-ended efforts to pursue accountability, and justice, for the people who killed navalny. i don't think that this will necessarily yield results, immediately, but you want people to know, in the russian system, that so long as they are around, there will be efforts to hold them accountable. there is a range of things that i think, can, and should, be done. i don't think we should sit here and pretend like a few more sanctions will have a huge consequence here. >> the important message is accountability, no matter how long. ben rhodes, always a pleasure, great to see you, thank you for

your time tonight. we have one more story for you tonight. the plan by trump, and his allies, to infuse a second term administration with christian nationalism. the journalist behind this new reporting, joining me, next. m. start your day with nature made. the #1 pharmacist recommended vitamin and supplement brand. when i was diagnosed with h-i-v, i didn't know who i would be. but here i am... being me. keep being you... and ask your healthcare provider about the number one prescribed h-i-v treatment, biktarvy. biktarvy is a complete, one-pill, once-a-day treatment used for h-i-v in many people whether you're 18 or 80. with one small pill, biktarvy fights h-i-v to help you get to undetectable—and stay there whether you're just starting or replacing your current treatment. research shows that taking h-i-v treatment as prescribed and getting to and staying undetectable prevents transmitting h-i-v through sex. serious side effects can occur, including kidney problems and kidney failure.

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and you can bring your own device. oh, and all on the most reliable 5g mobile network nationwide. wireless that works for you. it's not just possible, it's happening. new reporting from politico points to a broad concerted effort for donald trump and his allies to implement christian nationalism should he win a second term. political reports the person leading this is russell vote, the center for renewing america. a think tank, in a leading conservative consortion, preparing a second trump term. vote sees his, and his organization's mission, as a renewing of consensus of america, as a nation under god, for a statement to cra's website. freedom of religion, remaining

a protected right, but vote, and his ideological brethren, would use his administration it is a new public policy with it. joining me now, the national investigative correspondent for politico, heidi, great to see you again, thank you so much for making time for us, russell vote, he served as trump's director of management, and budget but he is the trump chief of staff in a possible second term. how does he gain this level of influence with donald trump? >> that is why we are writing about him, because he is the one with the influence. we know he speaks with trump regularly, and we have already seen trump echo some of these ideas in terms of withdrawing from nato. as we know, vote has very strong opinions on the border, he says that jesus was not on an open border person, but this goes beyond that, and that is why we're writing this story. the christian nationalism we are talking about is also

influenced by william wolf. we know that vote is close to the former trump official, and his ideas are much more extremist. we are talking about on isolationism, immigration, we are talking about ending same- sex marriage, abortion, reducing access to contraceptives, but also, surrogacy, no fault divorce, sex education in public schools, this is what he has already written about. he has attracted all of the tweets he's put out, about these issues, we know that he is an inspiration for russell vote, they are very close, and that according to the documents we have the, difference between where we have been in the past with christian nationalism, and in religion, influencing conservatives is that they have an actual plan, right? we know that we're talking about bullet points to make this a top priority for the administration, which is why we are drilling down on the

specifics of what this possibly mean beyond what russell said, publicly, a man? >> the interesting thing here, heidi, is that the vote center for renewing the american think tank, is really, not the only group focused on trump's second term. you talk a little bit more about the realities it is the heritage foundation is project 25 but it is the effort to uproot the deep state bureaucracy.what ways do they do if their interests overlap at all? >> interesting you brought this up, because he is advising project 2025. project 2025 has the it is they say, in their mandate for leadership, which is a 900-page document is that they explicitly want to put god, and christianity, back into civic life in america. they have some very specific ideas here. i would point your attention to

two pieces of this puzzle and project 2025, which is, really, their roadmap. they want to do a lot for the department of health and human services, as well as the fda, when it comes to, we know, the abortion plll, withdrawing approval for that. contraceptive coverage, and then, also, groups like the ethics and public policy center which have been, openly, targeting issues like ivf, as well as hormonal birth control. this may come as a shock to folks who are listening right now, because we have, always, talked in christian conservative circles about a couple of issues like abortion, and same-sex marriage, that this would go so far as to target issues like reducing access to contraception, but this is not fringe, ayman. we are already seeing this in the influencer community. with turning point usa, with the recent conference for young women, where they said, look, you need to ditch your hormonal birth control, it is unhealthy,

they also talked about criticizing daycare, for instance. if you look at the roots of a lot of this, there is a belief in orthodox christian communities that the family has been breaking down over the past decade, and that at the heart of it, the root of it, is the sexual revolution, which was based on access, by women, to hormonal birth control. >> you are starting to see some of those signals make their way to the supreme court, even with the headline that we read earlier in the show from samuel alito, questioning whether same- sex marriage remains legal, or should remain legal, in this country. heidi, always a pleasure, thank you for your time, and for your excellent reporting. that is our show for tonight. alex wagner will be back tomorrow evening. you can catch me on weekends, every saturday, and sunday night, at seven pm eastern, here on msnbc. it is time now for the last word with lawrence o'donnell. good evenin