speak out, no matter what the issue is. whether it's gun violence, or you speak out, obviously, about what you saw on the streets, we are just trying to enjoy your weekend. i am so appreciative of your voice, thank you for coming on tonight, and for always calling out what you see out there. really, i appreciate it. that does it for me tonight, i will be here, tomorrow night, at eight pm eastern. do not worry, chris hayes will be back next week. he is on vacation, taking a well deserved, well needed, break. certainly, he has earned it, but i am happy to be in for him tonight, and tomorrow night. for now, it is time for alex wagner tonight. time for al ex wagner tonight

south carolina will vote on saturday, but on sunday i'll be running for president. i'm not going anywhere.

people deserve a right to be heard. not a soviet style election where there's only one candidate and he gets 99% of the vote. we don't have kings in this country. we have elections. and donald trumpav of all peopl should know we don't rig elections. >> that is't haley's new messag iew guess. it doesn't matter she is on track to lose her home state by a bigger margin than any presidential candidate in modern history. she is staying in this race. and to put her money where her mouth is, the haley campaign is now spending more than half a million dollars running this new ad in the state of michigan where republicans will choose their candidate next week. >> commerce is the most exclusive nursing home in america. washington keeps failing because politicians from yesterday can't lead us into tomorrow. we need term limits, mental competency tests and a real plan to defeat china and restore our

economy. we have to leave behind the chaos and drama of the past with a new generation and a new conservative president. >> america needs a new generation, and honestly that message is a little rich coming from haley, a politician who has been on the national stage for well over a decade. despite her empty rhetoric and abysmal poll numbers, you can see a certain kind of logic in nikki haley's decision to stay in this race. it's not because she has a real chance in beating trump. now, there's nothing to suggest she does chl at this point. instead nikki haley might be pinning her hopes on being a candidate who is waiting in the wings just in case something takes donald trump out of this race before the republican convention later this summer. and that is not a totally absurd idea. right now donald trump's manhattan criminal trial is scheduled to go forward on march 25th. the federal trial over his attempts to overturn the

election could begin as soon as early summer as the department responds to his claims he's immune fromo prosecution. and donald trump faces the real possibility of being a convicted felon well before election day. and nikki haley knows that. but the trump campaign knows that as well. today trump's campaign released a new memo outlining their path on march 19th, six days before his trial is set to begin. at the same time trump is actually tightening his grip on the official republican party apparatus. he's successfully pushed ronna mcdaniel out of the job. mcdaniel plans to step down shortly after the south carolina primary, and he's begun advocating for new rnc leadership stocked with loyalists including his own ow daughter-in-law. and today the daily beast reports some trump allies are actually predicting a full purge of the a rnc, driving out any

members who don't pledge absolute fealty to donald trump. the rnc is the only body that could actually remove trump from their ticket after he has locked up the nomination, and trump is about to take it over. so we are fast approaching a scenario in whiche the republin party is stuck with trump no matter what happens to him in a court of law. joining me now is mark, also with me charlie sykes, editor at large of the bulwark and author of "how the right lost its mind." gentlemen,mi thank you for bein here. charlie, i'll start with you. i guess with this take over of the republican apparatus, is there any path left for republicans to ditch donald trump as their nominee at or after a conviction if he is -- at the convention, excuse me, if he is convicted? >> well, there's a chance but

it's slim and none. okay, with the stipulation that nikki haley often disappoints and she's not going to beat donald trump, i have to say, though, i'm glad she's continuing to stay in this race and push donald trump. there's short-term and long-term. the short-term is she's giving voices to the party absolutely saying right now to be abandoning ukraine and to be appeasing vladimir putin. longer-term i think she is trying to articulate in fact you don't necessarily have to be a partisan democrat to look at donald trump and think this is crazy, this man is losing it, this man is erratic, this man rants and raves, this man faces all these legal problems. yes, it's a losing losing cause, but there might be some scraps in the short-term and long-term.

it's not a pretty picture for the republican party. >> nikki haley was just one -- she wase on another news chann earlier this evening and actually had this to say about donald trump. listen. >> my strategy is to make sure that the american people have their voices heard, but it is also acknowledging the realities that he'll be in court march and april, m may and june. more judgments or court cases will be heard. he himself has said he's going to spend more time this year in a courtroom than he is going to be on the campaign trail. that's a problem. >> i'm not sure if that is a pitch to voters or an explanation as to why she's sticking around in this race. >> well, what it is a much sharper message, frankly, than anything she's had f to this point. that's kind of the tip of the iceberg. she's talkedf a lot about, you know, about how trump's behavior has kind of spiralled into a more unhinged place lately. frankly, this is much sharper

than anything we've heard from her going into the primary where frankly she overperformed. there are many orders of magnitude, like layers of truth to what she's saying now compare today before. and also there's some hope maybe not only is she going to stay in the race but going to fight in a very real way, not just hang around and hope to sort of inherit the whirlwind if for some reason donald trump is not viable come the summer, which sounds kind of far-fetched at this point. i don't know, i have some hope not only she'll stick around but stick around in a scrappily purposeful way. >> trump's total take over of the party comes obviously at a difficult time for ukraine and for opponents of vladimir putin. tabling a listen to what former congresswoman liz cheney said

about this over the weekend. i think that we have to take donald trump very seriously. we have to take seriously inextent to which you've now gotten a putin wing of the republican party. i believe the issue this election cycle is making sure the putin wing of the republican party does not take over the west wing of the white house. >> charlie, is there still a wing ofha the party that is willing to oppose trump on russia and if so, who and where are they? >> there is, and it is shrinking and aging out. in fact, we did have a vote in the house of representatives, if speaker mike johnson decided today do the right thing and have aid to ukraine i think it would passover whelming. a substantial number of republicanps voted for the ukraine aid in the dwroouns senate, but having said that this is a party that continue tuesdayat be in the throne of

donald trump, and donald trump is number one leader for putin. so you see which way the trends are going, but it's not over quite yet. there's a remnant, a vestige there, and you still see it in the senate and in the house. i don't want to overstate it, but the fact nikki haley is calling out donald trump along with liz cheney and saying, look, these are the stakes here, put aside the buffoonery, the future of the western world is at f stake, the nato alliance i at stake. it has implications for the world and the united states as well. i think it's importanted to hav somebody who's articulating that at this point because, again, donald trump controls the republican party but the putin wing takeover is probably coming but it's not there yet. so the last hold out is still

holding. >> to that point you would think if there were ever a moment for nikki haley to distinguish m herself from trump with the national security bona fides it would be with alexei navalny in this moment. but i guess the question is are there any republican voters listening to the argument or who actually care about navalny right acnow? >> one would hope. i think liz cheney actually took the messaging to the next level by actually calling them the putin wing of the republican party. as dan fifer today i think pointed out on his substack about messaging, republicans and democrats, vladimir putin is not popular. yes, donald trump likes him, tuckler carlson likes him. he has boomlet going among the celebrity spokespeople of the party, but ultimately this is not a system that republicans or certainly democrats revere at

this point. i also would point out, you know, liz cheney and nikki haley are very robust voices. neither of them is likely to be the republican nominee anytime soon, but they're not aging out either, and they both make a compelling case, and i think it's great nikki haley, frankly, leading on this because trump isn't ducking this issue either. i think laura engram earlier tonight said something to the effect of the legal judgment going to cost him hundreds of millions of dollars is a form of navalny and a construction. but he's basically wrapping himself b in with the murder of navalny which is absurd on many levels. i think it's good there's a counterpart to that in the party at least in an active sense. >> charlie, it feels as if some republicans were just a trying wait trump out, that might not be successful with his take oveh of the party apparatus, it suggests trumpism is poised to outlive trump himself within the

gop for years to come. >> i think that's true. by the way, mark is out. i'm not think of nikki haley when i say aging out. i'm thinking of the mitch mcconnells and the younger senators are the ones likely to vote for the aid to ukraine. we ought to realize this is a younger fight. this is not going to end in 2024 whatever the results of the election are. trumpism is going to be around for a very, very long time and a generation of young trumpests coming into power and politics going to be around for 20 or 30 years, it is difficult to see a place for a liz cheney or a nikki haley in the republican party in the near future. again, it's easy to get caught up in the horse race right now what happens in the next two, three, four months, but this is going be a long-term struggle because the republican party has

been for more than 80 years an internationalists party, and now it's making a turn to being an isolationist america first party. that will have long-term implications, and it's not going to end when donald trump exits the estage. >> tyeah, very important point there, charlie sykes, mark, thank you to the both of you interest starting us off in tonight. coming upg a new report toy says allies close to donald trump are planning on making christian nationalism a key part of a second trump administration. we'll speak to the author of that report ahead. but first new york's attorney general says she is ready to seize trump's properties if necessary to make him pay the massive fraud penalty issued by a judge last week. trump's legal woes, that's next. k trump's legal woes, that's next. p into the tooth to actively repair acid weakened enamel. i recommend pronamel repair. with new pronamel repair mouthwash you can enhance that repair beyond brushing. they work great together.

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will seek, you know, judgment there forcement mechanisms in court, and we'll ask a judge to seize his assets. >> that was new york attorney general letitia james vowing tonight to make trump pay the $355 million plus interest penalty from his civil fraud trial even if it means taking buildings owned by the former president. but trump appears to be resorting to alternative means to pay his legal. that's over the weekend the donald launched, yep, his never surrounding gold high top sneakers. they retail online for the low, low, low price of just $399. the former president would need to sell over a million pairs of sneakers to pay the penalty from his new york fraud trial, which could take i would argue some time. meanwhile, trump is waiting on two supreme court decisions that could come down at any moment. one of the issues of immunity, which will determine whether trump's federal decision interference case or federal

election interference case can resume or proceed to trial and another deciding whether to uphold a colorado decision to remove trump from the ballot. melissa murray joins me to discuss this and more. a professor at nyu law and a co-host of the strict podcast. letitia james saying she's preparing to seize trump's buildings if he cannot pay the civil fraud fine. how do you see this judgment paying out financially and politically for trump? how much will it hurt his bottom line? >> well, i mean it's obviously a massive judgment not just the almost $400 million in the actual penalty but also $100 million in pretrial interest that's already accrued and continues to accrue. so this is a sizable judgment, the kind of judgment that could easily abe satisfy would the seetheser of a massive asset

like a building. but, yes, this is a sort of standard way other assets could be used to satisfy that judgment, and this is pretty much standard operating procedure, there are other judgments also in the offing. there was also the e. jean carroll judgment. that judgment was about $88 million, so this isn't the only financial problem he has on the horizon. >> jets jump straight to trump's criminal exposure and issue of immunity before the supreme court. trump has already lost on this question twice. tanya chutkan ruled against him, and then the d.c. circuit upheld chutkan's decision. what are the chances of the supreme court granting this temporary stay? >> i think it's unlikely the court is going to grant the stay. i think it's also highly likely the court may allow the d.c. circuit's decision to stand. i want to make clear it's not a

question what the court does but when the court will do it. of the longer the court takes on this session means donald trump has won. we've already blown past that march 4th deadline to begin the trial in d.c. and the further out we get from an actual trial date, the more likely it is that donald trump will not go on trial at all. so the supreme court really has a role to play here, and its role is making a decision and doing so with some measure of expedition. >> if trump is granted this temporary stay by the supreme court, when should we expect to see this trial getting under way? >> well, if the stay is granted, then i think all bets are off. but, again, we also have the disqualification hearing that was a couple -- i guess last week or a couple of weeks ago at the supreme court also has to issue a decision on. and i think, again, sort of thinking about the optics here, it seemed very likely from the

oral argument and the disqualification hearing that it was unlikely for the court to side with colorado. so that's a win for donald trump to stay on the ballot in colorado. and i think just making sure the court remains above the fray it's likely the court is going to be looking for a way to deliver loss to donald trump, but again a loss that comes with big expanse of time is not really a loss at all. in fact, it's a win for donald trump. >> let me ask you about that colorado decision and whether or not you think it'll come down to whether the supreme court believes that the states have a right to basically determine if this candidate or this person who's seeking office was involved in an insurrection. because they wouldn't be saying this if it came down to an age limitation or qualification. would it come down to an interpretation of it or why do you think the supreme court

would not side with colorado? >> there were a number of different theories floated in that argument. one is this idea in order for the order to be operative grs has to pass a statute. it can't just happen at the state level. congress has to authorize it. that seems to be where they were going. all i will say about the idea congress has to first act is that there are a number of different provisions within the 14th amendment including section 5 of the 14th amendment, which authorizes congress to act which secures civil rights and due process rights to all americans. this court has taken a very narrow view of congress' enforcement power under section 5 of the 14th amendment. it would be ironic and even inconsistent if determined here congress had to first act before prohibiting the states from doing something when they've been very willing to let states move forward without having

congressional approval in advance. >> i was going to say i would not be surprised if this court is in fact inwith many of its decisions especially this one. let me ask you finally and kind of switching gears a little bit. still on the supreme court but i do have to bring this up. this headline today. just us alito renews criticism of landmark ruling on same sex marriage. just your response to that. >> it's not the first time we've heard this from justice alito. he was a dissenter in 2015's which legalized same sex marriage across the nation. in 2020 he and justice thomas also issued a separate opinion in a denial of cert that raised questions. this is something we've heard from him before. it's not surprising. i think though in the wake of dobbs and overrheuming of roe v. wade it raises real questions whether this court has an appetite of staying the course with established precedence or whether they'll seek the opportunities to revisit cases that have been settled. >> all right, troubling headline

there from justice alito, but again not surprising. always a pleasure. thank you for joining us. still to come tonight, a bombshell report about plans to make a second trump administration a haven for christian nationalism. plus harrowing images out of the gaza strip are moving people around the world to call for a cease-fire. so why did america just say no to one? more on that with pod save the world's ben rhodes. next. rld's ben rhodes next rm policy - for an immediate cash payment. call coventry direct to learn more. we thought we had planned carefully for our retirement. but we quickly realized we needed a way to supplement our income. our friend sold their policy to help pay their medical bills, and that got me thinking. maybe selling our policy could help with our retirement. i'm skeptical, so i did some research and called coventry direct. they explained life insurance is a valuable asset that can be sold. we learned we could sell all of our policy, or keep part of it with no future payments. who knew? we sold our

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israel's war against hamas has reached yet another inflection point. fighting has escalated throughout the gaza strip including in the southern city of khan yunis where israeli forces have conducted raids on the nassar complex, one of the last remaining hospitals inside the strip. now following those raids the world health organization says nassar hospital is no longer functioning which means there are zero working hospitals left in all of gaza. today u.n. agencies began evacuating critical patients out of nassar to rafah where thousands have fled after israel declared it safe, though repeat air strikes contradict that claim. over millions of civilians are squeezed into this last corner of gaza. many in tent cities with very

little food or clean water. it is images like these that are moving more and more people around the world to call for an immediate cease-fire. one that would allow the release of israeli hostages held by hamas and that would allow aid to get into gaza. but not america. america says the war should go on, that the images that you're seeing can keep happening. and despite reports citing unnamed biden administration officials describing president biden venting his frustrations about prime minister benjamin netanyahu's tactics behind closed doors what is reportedly said in private does not match what the u.s. is saying and doing in public. today the u.s. vetoed a u.n. resolution that demanded an immediate humanitarian cease-fire. and the u.s. ambassador to the u.n. argued that a cease-fire not conditioned on hamas releasing all of the more than 100 israeli hostages still being held inside gaza would fail to

bring durable peace. so the stalemate continues. meanwhile, things may soon get much worse for gazans crowded into rafah. in fact, last week israeli officials unveiled next steps for their ground invasion of gaza, plans that include invading rafah with troops. the u.s. and western allies quickly denounced that plan for the obvious humanitarian crisis it would provoke. but netanyahu insists they would not bow to the pressure. and over the week they delivered an altmatem. the promised ground invasion will begin if all the hostages are not released by ramadan. that is march 10th. so the question is what happens now. joining me now is ben rhodes, former national security advisor under president obama and co-host of "pod save the world." ben, it's great to see you again. i'm sorry it's under these circumstances but no one better to talk to about this. do you think there is a

cognitive dissonance reflected here emerging here in the united states veto at the u.n. security conference today? >> i think so. i think the united states clearly thinks it's not a great idea for this operation in rafah to go forward. it would be an absolute humanitarian catastrophe. you can't rescue the hostages at that scale militarily with that kind of operation, and it wouldn't achieve its military objective of destroying hamas. you would be escalating an already difficult circumstance over the objections of the u.s. i think the challenge is we keep hearing about this private messaging but if the public embrace of the izroomy government -- let's be clear, too, this is not just israel we're talking about mr. netanyahu and his government, if those vetoes continue, if military assistance continues without condition, essentially netanyahu doesn't see a red light for this rafah operation, and i think that's the dissonance here. if we don't think it's the right thing for them to be going into

rafah like this, at some point you have to draw a line with your actions and not just the words you speak in private. >> and i guess that's the crux of the question i'm trying to get to here, which is the u.s. has tools in its toolbox to pressure israel, which it has done and used in the past. if it is saying publicly to the world we care about a cease-fire and the release of hostages and to prevent a ground invasion in rafah, why is it not using those tools? because what the u.s. proposed after its veto is a deal that would tie a temporary cease-fire to a hostage release, but it's also notable to say a major ground offensive in rafah as you noted should not proceed under current circumstances. >> well, i think what the u.s. would like to happen, what the biden administration would like to happen is clearly a lengthy pause. you can call it a cease-fire or pause in the hostilities allowing for the release of hostages and the provision of a significant amount of assistance

into gaza. let's be clear people are desperate for food and water and medical attention. and then to use that window to try to build out some diplomatic initiative here, future israeli security concerns. that makes sense. i think the problem is b.b. netanyahu is not onboard with that approach. so there's ultimately a fundamental decision here. can you get done that type of approach of cessation of hostilities and improve the humanitarian situation if you don't have a fundamental break with netanyahu? and they seem to not want to change tact yet in terms of this idea we do this with netanyahu, we try to bring him along to our position. look, if they succeed in that effort, that's great. i think the concern a lot of us had watching this from the outside is we've seen netanyahu getting up and kind of publicly rebuking the united states, saying rafah will go forward, saying they'll never be a

palestinian state. i think under tholes circumstances at some point you have to use your leverage. let's be clear, israel does care about this. they don't want the united states voting that way and that's why put a lot lot of effort iptrying to prevent that outcome. there is leverage here. the question is do you use your leverage or try to use persuasion, and thus far they're still trying to use persuasion. b.b. netanyahu, though, i can tell from experience is often not a persuadable person particularly when dealing with a democratic president. >> yeah, it's a very important point you bring up. you and i speak to a lot of officials in the region and many of us say netanyahu has a political future tied to this war and he does not want to end this. the united states as you said is trying to thread this needle between the public pressure and private pressure. but if that doesn't work, we saw the state department spokesperson matthew miller saying the u.s. would like to see a humanitarian pause before

ramadan starts. is it even at this point relevant, is it even at all possible given everything to change course and the determination netanyahu has to go into rafah? >> well, you make an important point. he is in power, netanyahu, because of the right wing, the far right wing of his coalition. these are the kind of people like the national security administer who talked about literally displacing people out of gaza. netanyahu cares more about what those people think than what joe biden is saying to him. because those are the people keeping him in power. and that's the fundamental challenge here. that he has an interest in the perpetuation of this war. again, i don't think it's likely that he's going to change course and embrace the kind of u.s. proposal of the cease-fire in exchange for release of hostages and then some broader diplomatic initiative. you know, we'll see if that bears results. i certainly hope it does. i hope that there's a deal that

is to be had here, but right now it doesn't feel like the momentum is moving in that direction. it feels the momentum is moving in the opposite direction, and the question is given that reality when you change from these kind of private words that you then read out in public, so they're not that private at this point. when you change to a kind of more public position of wanting a cease-fire and saying there will be some kind of conditions, if there's not one reached. i think rafah is going to be the threshold for that. i would hope it's before rafah buzz you don't want that to move forward. you don't want to see the kind of awful escalation that take place in a city of a million people packed in like that. let's hope that doesn't happen. >> you have to keep wondering why the administration is staying on this course and not changing. ben rhodes, we have a lot more to talk to about after the break including the fall of this key town in eastern ukraine to russian forces as support for ukraine among republicans in washington remains in limbo. that's next. stay with us. that's next.

stay with us

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russia's capturing of avdiivka, their first military victory in months has handed russian president vladimir putin a major political win. and the biden administration is not being coy about why they think ukraine lost this specific battle. it was biden's national security adder jake sullivan earlier today on a call with reporters from the white house. >> this happened in large part because ukraine is running out of weapons due to congressional inaction. and ukrainian troops didn't have the supplies and ammunition they needed to stop the russian advance. >> last week the senate passed a bill with $60 billion of aid to support ukraine in this war, passing the bill to the house where republican speaker of the house mike johnson says that he will not be rushed to pass it and didn't bring it to the floor last week and now congress is on recess. what does it mean for our allies in ukraine, and what can

president biden do if congress won't do its job and act sphjoining us again is ben rhodes, deputy national security adviser for the obama administration. tying the loss of avdiivka directly to the lack of congressional inaction. is this a good strategy on the part of the white house to ratchet gop pressure on the part of holding up this aid? >> yes, and this is not hyperbole. sometimes arguments are made to put pressure on some hypothetical future. it is the case this is now an artillery battle, a small arms battle along a very long front line. and what's happened is the russians have ramped up their capacity to turn out that kinds of weaponry for their troops at the front line. they've also back filled a lot of their supplies from north korea of all places, and the ukrainians are running short. they just don't have the kind of pipeline of supplies that they

need to be in this front line battle with a larger russian army and a larger russian military. i think it's right to both point out the stakes involved here. this is not about getting the ukrainians some new capability, the kind of thing we were talking about over the last year or so, do they get 5-16s or tanks, this is about literally whether or not they're going to have the lifeline of supplies they need to hold out against a larger russian military. and it is absolutely absurd that the reason we can't even have a vote on this is because some speaker of the house is worried about losing his job to a bunch of maga lunatics in his caucus. when we know if it was put to a straight up or down vote in the house, it would pass with pretty healthy amounts of republican support here. so i think it is worth dialing up the pressure here because that's what the stakes are in real life, in the real world. not in the maga world of republican politics in washington. >> to your point and you

certainly know washington better than i do, is biden's only path here is help mike johnson? is there anything he can do to help the situation in ukraine without needing to help as liz cheney called it the putin part of the republican party that includes people like maga mike johnson? >> yes, i think the only way you get the robust package absolutely required is to kind of work through mike johnson or find some other procedural way to force a vote in the house of representatives. obviously mike johnson could bring that bill to the floor tomorrow if he wanted to. there are other lengthier and more problematic and procedural ways to try to force a vote that frankly would take time and not guaranteed to succeed. absent that, absent passing a supplemental, there are things the administration could do to try to move around stockpiles in europe, try to resupply the ukrainians that way, but let's be clear that's not anywhere near the efficiency of just passing this bill and anywhere near the scale of what the ukrainians need.

and so i do think after a long time trying to work with republicans and attach border provisions for a bill in the senate, all that months that have been put in to try and make this easier it for the republican party to move this forward, i think the only way is real pressure, and pointing out the real life stakes of this being held up. >> let me ask quickly about sanctions. president biden said the u.s. will ubveil sanctions on russia on friday in response to the killing of alexei navalny. if you were in charge of those sanctions what would they entail, what would they look like? and would it be an appropriate response here? >>, you know, i frankly don't think there's some additional sanction going to make much difference here. the russians have learned to live and frankly evade and work around really robust sanctions. i think a couple of things that you want to put on the table is there are several hundred billion dollars in frozen russian reserves. trying to expedite ways to get that money into the hands of the ukrainians is something i think should be looked at.

and frankly another thing as someone who spoke with alexei navalny over the years, doing a bit of what he did, which is exposing the corruption and kleptocracy of the russian regime and their cronies, kind of taking up the mantle of spotlighting the uncomfortable things putin did when spotlighted whether it's his wealth or the wealth of his cronies or how he steals money from his people. i also think there should be open ended efforts like pursue accountability for justice for the people that killed navalny, and i don't think that will necessarily yield results immediately, but you want people to know in that system, in that russian system that so long as they're around, there are going to be efforts to hold them accountable. so there's a range of things i think can and should be done. i don't think we should sit here and pretend like a few more sanctions are going to have a huge consequence here, though. >> yeah, but the important message is accountability no matter how long it takes. ben rhodes, always a pleasure, great to see you. thank you so much for your time

tonight. and we have one more story for you tonight. the plan by trump and his allies to infuse a second-term administration with christian nationalism. the journalist behind this reporting joins me next. e journs reporting joins me next.

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new reporting from politico today points to a broad concerted effort between donald trump and his allies who are preparing to enter christian nationalism in his next administration should he win a second term. politico reports the person leading this effort is the president of the center for renewing america think tank, a leading group in a conservative consortium preparing a ekd trump term. he sees his and his organization p's mission as a renewing of the consensus of america as a nation under god per a statement on cla's website, freedom of religion would remain a protected right but he and his

ideological brethren would not shy away to promote a christian doctrine and policies. thank you so much for making time for us. so russell vought, he served as trump's director at the office of budget and management. he's named as a possible contender be trump's chief of staff in a public second term. how has he gained this level of influence with donald trump? >> that is why we're writing about vought because he's the one with the flooups. we know he speaks with trump regularly. and we've already seen trump echo some of his ideas for instance in terms of withdrawing from nato. russell we know has strong opinions on the border. he says jesus was not an open border person. but this goes beyond that, ayman, and that is why we're writing this story because the christian nationalism we're

talking about is also influenced. he's also a former trump official, and his ideas are much more extremist. we're talking about here not just isolationallism, immigration, we're talking about ending same-sex marriage, abortion, reducing access to contraceptives but also surrogacy, no fault divorce. he's retracted a number of tweets he's put out about these issues, but we know he's an inspiration for rustle vought, that they are very close. and according to documents we obtained the difference where wave been in the past with christian nationalism and religion influencing conservatives is that they have an actual plan, right? we're talking about bullet points to make this a top priority in administration, which is why we're kind of drilling down on specifics of what this could possibly mean beyond what russell has said

publicly, ayman. >> and the interesting thing here is the center for renewing america think tank is really not the only group focused on trump's second term. you outlined more about for personalities but you've got more prominent ones and visibly knowing ones like the heritage foundation and an effort to uproot the so-called deep state bureaucracy. in what ways do their interests overlap if at all? >> it's really good you brought that up because russ is advising project 2025. project 2025 has a number of these groups on their board, and they say in their mandate for leadership, which is like a 900-page document that they explicitly want to put god and christianity back into inlife in america. and they have pretty specific ideas here. i would point your attention to two pieces of this puzzle in project 2025, which is really

kind of like the road map. they want to do a lot through the department of health and human services as well as the fda when it comes to we know the abortion pill, potentially withdrawing approval of that. contraceptive coverage, and then you also have groups like the public policy center which have been openly targeting issues like ivf as well as hormonal birth control. now, this may come as a shock to folks who are listening right now because we've always talked in christian conservative circles about just like a cup of issues like abortion and same sex marriage, that this would go so far as to target issues like reducing access to contraception, but this is not fringe, ayman. we're already seeing this in the influencer community ipcircles like turning point usa which holds a conference for young women where they said, look, you need to ditch your hormonal birth control. it's not healthy.

they also talked about criticizing day care, for instance. and if you look at kind of a root of a lot of this, there's a belief in orthodox christian communities that the family has been breaking down over the past decades and that the heart of this, at the root of it was the sexual revolution, which was based on access by women to hormonal birth control. >> and you're starting to see some of those signals make their way to the supreme court even with the headline we read earlier in the show questioning whether same sex marriage remains legal or should remain legal in this country. heidi, thank you so much. that is our show for tonight. alex wagner will be back here tomorrow evening. you can catch me weekends every saturday and sunday night at 7:00 p.m. eastern. "way too early" with jonathan lemire coming up