that estrogen in the water attempt by ibrance to put it into your drinks to take the estrogen out, it's a close system. the rest of the right-wing media is following suit. mike lindell is one part of. that >> i appreciate you coming on, angelo carusone, thank you so much. that does it for me. this is all in on this saturday, this thursday, rather night. i'm michael steele in for chris hayes. i will be back here at eight pm tomorrow night. and then back on msnbc for the weekend and atm on sunday and saturday with my co-host elisa menendez and symone sanders- townsend. alex when wagner starts. now good evening, alex. >> good evening chairman steele. an unusual and appreciated moment in my day. >> i appreciate that, and i've got some gold sneakers if you want some. >> you know what, we'll be talking about those speakers later to, because you can't say enough about that.

thank you, my friend. >> take care. >> thank you at-home for joining me this hour. in november of 2022, just five months after roe v. wade was overturned by the supreme court, former vice president mike pence sat down for an interview on cbs. >> well, the dobbs decision, this summer, that i was so grateful to see, the majority to which was made up of supreme court justices, but we appointed and confirmed to the court, really gave the country a new beginning for life. >> it was a new beginning for life, according to the most pious man in the trump white house, a man so conservative he would not allow himself to be alone in the same room with a woman who was not his wife. mike pence was unafraid to be a christian warrior. he wasn't afraid to call for a national abortion ban when other members of his party shied away from the issue.

but then mike pence was asked about in vitro fertilization. >> there are people who are concerned that if you start with abortion access restrictions that will also lead to restrictions on ivf treatment. if you believe life beginning can begins at conception, you can make that argument. should it be protected as a right? >> the vice began his answer with details about his and his wife struggles with fertility and the use of ivf to conceive their children. and that led mike pence to this. >> but i fully support fertility treatments, and i think they deserve the protection of the law. they gave us great comfort in those long in challenging years that we struggled with infertility in our marriage. >> mike pence was a sign that republicans should have better heeded. overturning roe would lead to all kinds of unforeseen

consequences, consequences that even the most die hard christian conservatives would have a hard time reconciling. consequences that would affect even their families. now whether republicans want to bury their heads in the sand or whether they truly believed that the christian conservatism then injected into american law would not wreak havoc in untold ways, it appears now that they have no plan to deal with any of this. the alabama supreme court ruled last week that embryos are children, and that decision has already caused multiple clinics in the state to pass their in vitro fertility services, which is a devastating development for families in that state who are eager to have children. even though this is only happening in alabama, so far, the political implications are vast. because as it turns out, a lot of people across the country need fertility care, and they are not just democrats. the new york times estimates

that over 7 million women have reported receiving infertility care, citing a cdc survey from 2019. 12% of american women, women undergoing ivf are most likely high income and white, and they have some higher education. last year kellyanne conway warned congressional republicans about the political disaster that was looming in the wake of the dobbs decision. her polling showed that 86% of american voters support ivf. among people who call themselves pro-life, ivf has 78% support. and among evangelicals, the mike pence's of this country, 83% of them supported. republicans, independents, wealthy women, white women, all of them overwhelmingly support in vitro fertilization and are also incredibly likely to be affected by any restrictions

have imposed on them. that's why elected republicans right now have no good answer, or rather it's why they have no answer at all. here is the senior senator from the state of alabama, tommy tuberville. >> do you have a reaction to the alabama supreme court ruling on the fact that embryos are children? >> yes. i'm all for it. we need to have more kids. we need to have an opportunity to do that. i thought this was the right thing to do. >> but ivf is used to have more children, and right now ivf services are paused at some of the clinics and alabama. aren't you concerned that this could impact people who are trying to have kids? >> well, that's for another conversation. we need more kids. we need people to have the opportunity to have kids. >> what do you say to the women right now in alabama who no longer have access to ivf? as a result of this ruling? >> well, that's a hard. when it really is. really hard. because again, you want people to have that opportunity. that's what i was telling her. we need more kids.

>> someone to tell the senator that if you want people to have more kids, he might not want to support a decision that prevents people from having more kids. yesterday morning former governor nikki haley appeared to agree with the alabama ruling, telling nbc news that embryos are babies. and then yesterday evening, she clarified that she did not agree with the alabama ruling. >> i wouldn't say that i agree with the alabama ruling. the question that i was asked is, do i believe an embryo is a baby. i do think that if we look at the definition, an embryo is considered an unborn baby. and so yes, i believe, from my stance, that that is. >> republican congressman byron donalds of florida, a rising star in the gop, appeared similarly confused, expressing support for the alabama ruling and also ivf, which the alabama

ruling now essentially prohibits. >> the alabama supreme court just ruled that embryos are children. do you believe embryos or children? >> i do because embryos grow into adults like we are. >> do you believe in a ivf? >> i think women decided to seek that process. that's a good thing. it's important. >> the obfuscation here, the clueless menace, the belies one for mental truth that republicans know well. this is a losing issue for. them when abortion, right on reproductive rights are on the ballot, democrats win and this has happened over and over and over again since the dobbs ruling. in kentucky, in ohio, in pennsylvania. and if republicans know this truth, so do democrats. vice president kamala harris addressed the alabama decision this afternoon. >> the irony of a trial is that on the one hand these proponents are suggesting that an individual and a woman does not have the right to and an

unwanted pregnancy. on the other hand does not have the right to become pregnant if that is her choice and her desire to dream. >> you will be hearing a lot of that in the next nine months. in a statement today, president biden's campaign manager said that what is happening in alabama right now is only possible because donald trump supreme court justices overturned roe v. wade. in the meantime, donald trump will be speaking tonight at the national religious broadcasters convention in nashville, tennessee, just about 85 miles away from the state of alabama. whether he is asked about abortion and ivf is unknown. but either way, he had better come up with an answer. turning me now are tim miller, writer-at-large with the bulwark, and michelle goldberg, opinion columnist for the new york times. thank you both for being here. so, michelle, [laughter] , i am not one to say mike pence is a cassandra, not even a cassandra because he wasn't

predicting doom, that 2022 interview was so illustrative of the bind republicans find themselves in, and one largely of their own making, if not completely of their own making. what are your expectations for this issue and the 2024 election? could it be the whole ball game? >> i think on this very narrow issue of ivf my guess is that they tried to do something to clarify it. in alabama you see there is a republican senator who is saying maybe we will say that life doesn't begin at conception, it begins at implantation in the uterus, because they are basically running up against that only foreseeable limits of defining a baby or defining personhood the way that they have chosen to do so. this is something that all pro- choice people have been warning about for years, that that person who had language, language about left beginning at conception, it impact abortion, but it impacts more

than abortion, impacts brought, control infertility treatments. so they might find a way to square this particular circle on this narrow issue. but what they haven't contended with is that the practical implications of all of these laws that they have thoughtlessly past, without any real due diligence, about the actual process of human reproduction, so that we see over and over again, for example, it's not just that these kind of lies in plaque ivf. we see that they impact miscarriage treatment. we see that they impact maternal health care. and because none of this, they haven't thought this through because they haven't thought through both the ways that their ideology collides with reality and they just haven't really thought that much, if at all, about women's health, beyond how they can control. it >> it's, like are you winning if you're stipulating where in the uterus the embryo needs to be? i just feel like this is a really unforeseen consequence of everything the republicans

have been wishing for four decades. >> yeah, i definitely feel uncomfortable talking about uterus locations. >> don't be. it's a welcoming environment here. >> good. i love that. i appreciate that. it is a problem for them. and i think this is a misnomer or a misunderstanding about donald trump's for a long time. his last successful when it 2016. back then there was a big group of voters that perceived him as basically moderate. i know they're tired for a lot of viewers of this show and others thinking. but a lot of voters look to him, he's a libertarian, he's from new york, you don't care that much about social issues. it is far-right christian conservatives that i don't like. and these are the obama trump voters. these working class voters they carried him to victory in pennsylvania, wisconsin, it's a trap. okay, fast forward a few years. doug mastriano runs and pennsylvania for governor on a question nationalist platform, with the roe decision hanging over him, with abortion ban at

five weeks or whatever he proposed. he gets slaughtered. loses by 18, 17 points. the gap between trump and mastriano was the perception that trump is not a far-right christian fundamentalist like some of these others in the republicans that allowed him to appeal to some of the more secular working class voters that liked trump. so that is why this is such a huge problem for him and that's why you see him panicking about it and grasping around for various solutions like the 16- week ban or whatever he floated in the new york times the other day. >> and that's the problem with what's happened to the republican party since 2016 and now. the full-throated endorsement of christian nationalism. there are headlines i think political the trump allies prepared to infuse christian nationalism and second trump administration a new york times reporting a six-week abortion ban. whether or not trump himself is a libertine from new york, the

party has moved deep deep right and trump is along for the ride. >> there are significant numbers of voters who don't blame trump or don't attribute the end of roe v. wade to trump. this is a war that the democratic party is gonna have to do or the next two months. we all know donald trump really could not care less one-way another about abortion, has declined to see whether he's ever paid for one himself, we know the people who are going to go to the debt staff administration or the sort of people like this guy in texas who came close to revoking the authorization, revoke the fda's authorization. the politico story is about someone who is a likely trump staffer and they're talking about not just abortion but contraception no fault divorce gay marriage and on trump is

obviously not amount to a deal of attention to detail. so these are the people who are going to be essentially making policy in the next trump administration. in a next trump administration, i don't want to say the next trump administration. >> to that and, i almost called you trump, so sorry, tim, the trump campaign is pushing back saying these white christian angela's have designs on the white house, but we're the ones calling the shots. i don't know if that's true anymore. this is the dog caught the car, to some degree. the supreme court is seated. the courts gonna do with courts gonna do. donald trump, does he at some point answer for it. i think it's amazing that in this moment is gonna sit down with christian broadcasters on the state of tennessee, less than 100 miles from alabama and think somehow this ashue issue, if not today, if not tomorrow, is gonna come up and he's gonna have to answer for, and not necessarily because the fake news media is going to ask him but because interested

christian nationalists, they want to know if he's for real about it all. >> the christian news and media is gonna ask about it, and they're going to want him to do that. they're going to, there activists out there that funded, excuse, me that we are staffed at his last administration that are part of this project, 2025, they're planning to go to the next administration. like michel said, trump doesn't have attention to detail on who is going to be these mid level staffers and hhs that have oversight over this sort of thing. and we already know, again, look, he made his deal with the devil. he guided in 2016 by outsourcing the judge list to the federal society. and then this is that coming payment coming due. if he wasn't in line with the far-right, the social conservatives on all these issues, then he should have tried to put up justices that were more aligned with whatever he thinks he really believes. and that was an option that would've been available to a president in 2016. he didn't do that, and so here's where we are. >> michelle you are saying that

you think republicans in the state of alabama will come up, will thread the needle, effectively, and say an embryo is implanted in the walls of the uterus -- >> who knows? maybe i'm overestimating them but -- >> hard to do. i do think, though, that even though there is a syntactical workaround, the mere threat, i mean they've shut down ivf procedures at the nation's eighth largest hospital. the threat of that is very real to families across the country. >> right. and it's not just alabama. because alabama is not alone in having this kind of language that passed before roe v. wade about life beginning at conception. yeah, anybody who lives in the right state who has a fertility appointment coming up and people wait for these appointments with an extraordinary amount of concern and anxiety. they are going to have to wonder whether, kind, of one judges ruling or one courts ruling could throw their carefully laid plans into

chaos. >> indeed. and i will say, this is the kind of stuff you share, these concerns, these worries, this is the kind of stuff you share with your close friends, with your relatives. this is the kind of thing, this is the kind of worry and stress that is shared among communities. and so even if it's happening in alabama, people in pennsylvania and people in michigan and people in georgia and people in arizona and nevada are can understand the fear, the sadness, and the real concern about the future the people of alabama, the families of alabama feel. it does not live and die in the state of alabama. michelle goldberg, tim miller, thank you so much for your time tonight. appreciate you guys. we've got a lot more to get through this evening, including the annual gathering of cpac, where you can buy woke tears in a bottle and play january six pinball. and also here a whole bunch of malarkey about michelle obama. but first, the judge presiding over donald trump's civil fraud

trial smacks down his latest attempt to pay the piper, or delay paying the paper. things could get expensive for mr. trump very soon. we'll have more on that, right after the break. the break.

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join the millions of people taking back their privacy by downloading duckduckgo on all your devices today. >> what happens when you can't pay the check, and it's a big

check, and the restaurant is closing? is that the right metaphor? i'm not sure. last friday a new york judge ordered donald trump to pay for 400 and $50 million for decades- long fraud where he lied about his net worth to cheat the system. and now mr. trump is trying his best to delay the reckoning. in addition to vowing to appeal this ruling, last night trump's lawyers asked the judge here, judge arthur engoron, for a 30- day stay, a pause that would essentially push back the deadline when trump has to pay up. once judge engoron's ruling is official, once the clerk enters it into the system, which could happen as soon as tomorrow morning, then the clock starts. trump's legal team will have 30 days to file its appeal. but in order for trump to do that, he must first post bond, which means putting down the entire 400 and $50 million damages, plus interest. every day trump fails to do so, once the clock starts, he will owe and additional $87,000 in

interest. every day. that is a lot of money in not a lot of time. and today, in a short, very tours email, judge engoron denied trump's request for more time. he failed to explain lets us justify any basis for a spay. i am confident that the appellate division will protect your appellate rights. joining me now to discuss is lisa rubin, nbc legal analyst, and everybody not-so-secret weapon at this point thank you lisa for being here. first, off judging goren email is almost as if he wanted to write back unsubscribe, like take me off this mailing list, i have no interest in dealing with you on any of these matters anymore. did you read that as particularly, shall we say, sharp? or is that pro forma? >> judge engoron can be kind of sharp. he is very tolerant until he is not, is the best way i would describe it. however, a colleague wrote me a

task test today after seeing that email saying he's done. my response was, he was done in november. the exhibit they exhausted his patients many months ago. >> and now it is not even don trump's favor. the question is, the clock could effectively begin tomorrow. >> yes. >> asap. >> correct. >> if donald trump can't find someone to give him a cool half a billion, or thereabouts, what is the next practical step for letitia james? >> let's say donald trump does not pose this bond. no letitia james has to start taking steps towards what is called executing on the judgment. she can either do that by trying to seize this his personal property. she can also do that by trying to seize bank accounts. but when we are talking about the properties at issue in this case, i would caution people who think that tissue james can go out and get 40 wall street for the state -- >> for tomorrow this or seized. >> right unlike for sale

immediately. that's not how this is going to work. there are a lot of steps in between here and there, and on top of that, donald trump has lots of creditors. tim shames is not his only prospective creditor. our tomorrows she'll a judgment creditor. but donald trump continues to have outstanding loans in the tens of millions or even hundreds of millions of dollars, with respect to the very same properties at issue in this new york civil fraud trial. >> i think we have a little graphic of the number of creditors trump has. a lot. is it an arms race here? if this chamber starts calling in the deaths, does that then scare other creditors, potentially, who are like oh, maybe he's not gonna be solvent for that much longer? could that be a domino effect? >> not only that, but if she obtains a judgment lean, which is basically a legal piece of paper that allows her to start

seizing property and effectively prevent him from selling things, that in and of itself might be an event of default under some of his outstanding loans, which will allow a particular lender to go out and keep the collateral. so there are a lot of complex moving parts here involving donald trump's business empire, the various lenders and creditors that he has, and she'll have to figure out what assets he has that could be quickly and easily liquidated with out other people in line already. >> it could devolve into some kind of feeding frenzy, to use colloquial term about it. >> it could. it could also prompt him to file for personal bankruptcy because, again, in this order donald trump and the business entities that were found liable, are jointly and several lee liable. that means that any one of them can be liable for the whole of the judgment attributed to them and that also means the donald

trump can't escape this just by plunging those business entities themselves into bankruptcy, because that would leave him individually on the hook for the totality of it. the only way to escape it all together would be to file for personal bankruptcy, which would place an automatic stay on further litigation, including judgment execution. >> wow. walk me through a creditor. it can't be a creditor, sorry, not a creditors, someone who made post bond for trump. that person or that group cannot be based in new york city. is that right? or new york state? >> under the existing order he can no longer borrow money from institutions that are registered or chartered in new york state. however, if you are appealing that judgment and staying their judgment, theoretically that particular provision wouldn't be in effect while he appeals it. there are lots of financial institutions the probably fall outside of that. there are also wealthy

individuals, and as our colleague rachel maddow has said, even foreign countries might have an interest in learning this money to him. i asked the attorney generals office early this week, would we know, as the public, who loans following trump this money? would you even know, as the attorney generals office? and i believe the answer was, we are not clear on that. it's not clear whether we'll have any transparency as to how he gets the money to post a bond, if he does indeed post a bond. >> well that could be a significant national security concern, given the fact that he's running for the highest office in the land, and foreign interference is a very real thing when you're talking about donald trump. lisa rubin, thank you for supplying us with important shirts and information. >> all coming up with more something more exciting. later >> president biden meets ahead with the family with the with alexei navalny, and they try not to say putin in assassination in the same

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>> it was like the world's weirdest flea market. they were bedazzled handguns, and a january 6th pinball

machine, where the goal was to get the balls into a mini version of the capital while the trump speech blared and repeat. and plenty of let's call it art depicting donald trump. cpac, the annual conservative political action conference, is apparently just as bad as you might have imagined. if you wanted to own the libs, you can pick up one of these maga hammocks that, quote unquote, swing right. you can get one that says something like fake news for the low price of $500. or you could just buy a bottle of woke tears, $20 for a six pack. to be clear, that is just water. but the most interesting thing we saw at cpac today did not come from a large tent. the most interesting thing at cpac today was this. >> the left powerbroker is barack and michelle working in conjunction with the deep state, fbi, cia, all of the agencies that we know that are

so deeply corrupt. they were make some sort of move. >> biden will step aside, or be pushed aside, and they will try at the convention to go with kamala. >> the most devout democratic constituency is black women. so if they were to bounce kamala, that voting bloc would be absolutely enraged. the only way you square that circle is by running another woman of color, and michel meets that thing. >> that's right. but i can michele about not working in conjunction with the deep state are going to push president biden aside and then kamala harris or michelle obama will take his place. if you think that is insane, or if the optics of an entirely white panel peddling conspiracy theories about prominent back when and makes you uncomfortable, consider the title of this panel. >> ladies and gentlemen, our next, catfight? michelle versus kamala. >> the only problem anyone

seemed to have with the title count fight was this. >> can't fight kamala versus michelle, why are you ruining cat fights for us? [laughter] >> what else would you call about a conversation about two of the most accomplished influential black women in america? i believe it or not, this is actually not the most problematic a racially problematic conversation republicans have had this week about one of the democrats most reliable voting blocks. we're gonna bring you the conversation that literally takes the cake. coming right up next. coming right up next. are you still struggling with your bra? it's time for you to try knix. makers of the world's comfiest wireless bras. for revolutionary support without underwires, and sizes up to a g-cup, find your new favorite bra today at knix.com

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>> even the sneaker thing. i was on social media last night. very interesting. as you see, black support eroding for joe biden. this is connecting with black america. because they love sneakers. they are into sneakers. there is a big deal, certainly in the inner city. so if you have trump rollout his sneaker line, they're like wait a minute, this is cool. he is reaching them on a level that defies and is above politics. >> they love that. that was how raymond o royal, a fox news contributor and the author of children's books including the spider who saved christmas, that is how mr. raymond was aroyo launched says

trump launched is what -- because they love sneakers. not substantive policy proposals on racial equality, economic freedom, or health care, but because they love sneakers. if conservatives are trying to attract black voters, of a funny way of showing, it louis using thinly veiled racist tropes. lucky for, us tremaine lee has been on the ground talking to black voters about what they actually want and why some may at least consider voting for donald trump. joining me now is tremaine lee, msnbc correspondent and host of the podcast into america presents uncounted millions, the power of reparations. we're gonna talk about that in a second, but it's such a pleasure to have you here, and man, can he talk about how gross this is? first of, all gold sneakers, as a black america wants. that's. all >> we've been here for a few

hundred years, redlining, deprivation in all forms, lack of access to health care, quality education and housing. but as the speakers. it was so insulting. what's amazing is my social media's been bloated blowing up and i re-posted something about speaker surveys going crazy. this is maddening especially when we think about the great wealth disparities in this country in the ongoing suffering of so many communities that have been deprived access to full citizenship in so many ways. but the cynical idiocy that he's operating above politics because some ugly behind gold sneakers is gonna do it for you? it's insulting. >> you spent this time interviewing black men in america about what they want from their political leaders. some of them are interested and curious and maybe even in supporting donald trump. when you think about them and their value set, if they hear something like that, if they see these high top sneakers and the way the right wing is pushing them as the answer to black america's prayers, does that not make them question

whether the republican party is the right place for them? >> in all honesty, the people that i talked to are less enchanted, somehow, then they are saying that the democrats haven't done a good job of messaging properly and were sick and tired of being beholden and they're all these promises that are never met so it's not the dangling something before there. eyes black, voters even some who have interesting political ideas, they are savvy enough and black voters are pragmatic. it's not gonna be sneakers it's gonna make the vote for donald trump. >> i wonder if wonder if underway right now, and has entitled catfight, michelle versus kamala. which is using kamala harris as kind of a straw man, as a scare tactic for white conservatives v to worry about what -- second term would mean using michelle obama. we actually should play a -- and just the racism is front

and center. here it is. >> since bill clinton was our first black president that -- first black woman president. >> i guess so. >> kamala could be our first black woman president. michelle -- >> look, to be clear. >> the insinuation in the right wing, on that stage, is that michelle obama is somehow not a woman. >> right. >> i just wonder, when you have garbage like that, -- not just two black america to americans and anybody who respects the offices of the presidency in the first lady, is that not a deterrent to black folks who might otherwise be giving republicans a heshot? i keep asking this. and i wanted to be. but it's okay if d it's not. >> i don't think it will matter to the type of people that will be voting for far-right wing supremacist type candidates. you -- here's the thing. to be black in america, you

always have to be navigating the lesser of two, three, four, or , five evils. if you are from detroit and you are in the working class, and you are a union guy, you still have to hang around with some guys who might be a little racist who also might vote in your interests. and so, o that's not super surprising. but again, it's still such a small -- of black voters who find some appeal in it anyway. >> can we talk about what black voters do want? rather than this off putting language erthat's being spotted about them on the stages of cpac? you have done an incredible series about reparations that is out now. and we talk about reparations often is a theoretical idea. but the fact is, there are a very small number of black folks, who, in the aftermath of the civil war -- can you tell our audience -- the audience has not heard the podcast yet a little bit of the story of gabriel coakley. >> this is a story that is

brand new to me, and will be brand-new to most viewers. gabriel coakley, starting in the 1850s -- he sold oysters. he was somehow able to pull together enough money to buy his family's freedom. washington city had a big population of free people, free black people, who also lived op right next door to enslaved black people. so, his wife, his sister, his children, were all still enslaved. so, he began to purchase their freedom. courageous enough. then, in 1862, abraham lincoln said we cannot be in the midst of the civil war, demanding freedom for enslaved people and then washington heights either are still slaves. so, he signed the compensating animation compensating animatio emancipation act of 1862, which also -- aid also paid off this labor. 's >> reparations. >> reparations, for slavery. so, the federal government, for the first time, paid reparations for slavery, but for white enslavers.

what you had to do is, bring your, describe the property would be using, and prove loyalty. they were loyal to the union. to look at this list, the most powerful people, the defender of the willer total, the founder of griggs bank, the sitting secretary of the -- page for the lost property. >> they're lost slaves. >> they are humans who still suffered through tortured servitude, and out of nowhere, this man, gabriel coakley, pops up, a black man, has paid reparations. he found a loophole, because there was still slavery in the district, he never registered his family as free people. so, technically, they were still his property. >> and he was able to get reparations. >> get reparations. it was also gabriel coakley. but also, is five other names of black people. someone who purchased her husband. someone who purchased her son when he was just a boy. we wrestle with this idea of what it could have meant, what could have been. when you see through the family

line of gabriel coakley -- deans, someone who won the national medal of freedom. >> wow. it is a story of what the economic enfranchisement. >> -- what has been denied that since we have been here is full access to the fruits of america. we talk about red lining, the lack of giving out of g.i. loan, so that after you serve the country, come home and buy a nice home. >> institutional racism. >> institutional racism. it's so braided into this country. and we've never had full access. from the very air we breathe. >> trymaine lee, it is such a -- i want to say something corny like toward a force. a fo. tour de force. -- i encourage everybody to listen to the podcast. people who don't know, i have known you for 15 years. >> it's been wild. a long. time >> trymaine lee, my friend, congratulations on the podcast. >> thank you for having me.

>> we have one more story ahead. just one more. maga worlds doublespeak about the death of russian opposition leader alexei navalny. they new yorkers susan glasser joins me next. joins me next. of magnesium. qunol, the brand i trust.

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by downloading duckduckgo on all your devices today. >> laura, we've seen -- the death of navalny in russia. in what ways are the two similar? >> i think you would have to ask him exactly what he meant. but i think we are talking about targeting a political foe. and that's what we've seen happen with joe biden weaponizing his department of justice. those are things you see happen in russia to political opponents. >> do you believe that putin is responsible for the death of navalny? >> i don't know enough to come. at >> that 22nd sells you enough you need to know on the -- there wide think that trump is just like alexei navalny, that he too is being targeted by his

political opponent. but also, they don't want to admit that alexei navalny was targeted by putin, so, actually, no comment. by contrast, president biden has had no trouble articulating his position on this. he says putin is responsible for navalny's death and has called putin a crazy s.o.b.. today, biden met with the widow and daughter of alexei navalny, saying his legacy will carry on through people across russia and around the world. joining me now is susan glasser, staff writer at "the new yorker". susan, are you at all surprised by the inability of prominent republicans to admit that putin killed navalny? >> you know, this far into the trump era that we seem to be living in the endless version of the trump era, nothing is really surprising. but it is kind of grotesque, alex. here we are at the third anniversary of putin's full scale invasion of ukraine. we are talking about hundreds of thousands -- actually, millions of ukrainians -- whose

lives have been forever changed by this. people displaced, killed. thousands, tens and thousands of russians themselves dying as a result of this decision. navalny being compared by donald trump to himself is really a perversion and an embarrassment. and to watch his family takeover of the already see include someone who doesn't know the difference between alexei navalny and donald trump is really -- it's not a good situation for a superpower, is it? >> do you think, though, if you sort of break down the resistance to admitting that putin assassinated navalny among maga republicans, do you think that they are terrified of trump's retribution? or do you think that they are legitimately enthralled by the strongman putin? >> there is an array of motivations, shall we say, behind the different varieties of enabling that we see in today's republican party. some people seem to be

ambitious, or trying on positions in a future republican trump administration. you have people like lindsey graham, who jettisoned long held positions. he claimed to be the biggest defender of ukraine, and then decided at the last minute to abandon them and not vote for billions of dollars worth of military assistance, and could not then show his face in munich at the security conference after he did that -- lindsey graham seems to be somebody who knows the difference but has chosen to follow trump's line on putin. i do think there is a kind of a pro putin, pro strongman wing of the republican party. it is not necessarily a majority, even of elected republicans. but it certainly a significant and growing minority. in the house of representatives, and i think the chokehold of that faction over the house and over new speaker mike johnson is one reason by the ukraine aid has not come to a vote. >> we have reporting today that democrats are basically,

without saying the words i'm going to say it, discharge petition, effectively forcing a vote on ukraine funding, and they need a majority of the house to sign on to that. do you think that there are enough quote unquote moderate republicans, emphasis on the quotes, who are going to be willing to buck mike johnson and the strongman enthusiasts in the republican conference and vote with democrats to secure funding for ukraine? >> look, i think there is a reason that a discharge position petition is such a rarely use, or at least rarely successful parliamentary maneuver. it's very, very hard to pull that off. one of the dynamics that has been happening over the last few, months alex, much to the detriment, both of ukraine, and also i think to america's national security standing in the world has been, essentially, republicans, led by trump, who have made taking trump's position on putin and ukraine a condition of loyalty. and since trump makes loyalty,

basically, a main ideological test in today's republican party, the fact that ukraine has now become on the checklist, i think, is very bad news for supporters of ukraine. and that means that even moderate republicans who are from districts that voted for biden four years ago, remember, they are still members of the party. they want money for their competitive races. they want the former president not to attack them in his social media feeds, or in his campaign rallies. and so, there is a variety of reasons why they might be afraid to go up against the leader of the party on something like ukraine. >> well, the discharge petition ripens, i believe, the beginning of march. so, we shall see what happens. susan glasser, it's always great to talk with you, susan. thanks for your time tonight. >> great to be with you. >> that is our show for this evening. now it is time for "the last word with lawrence o'donnell" them with my friend, lawrence o'donnell. o'donnell" them with my friend, lawrence o'donnell.